There is NO SUCH THING as an irreversible recession. I'm not sure who said this, Obama or the author of this article or whoever.

The sky is NOT falling, as real packer fan says.

Bush pretty much ruled through fear, and it sure does seem that Obama is taking up where Bush left off.

In op-ed, Obama warns of irreversible recession

I bekieve its called a Depression!

And on the other side we have the Republicans who say " Do Nothing " Read a Newspaper or the home page on this site, the sky is falling a little at a time.

Even your Packers have reported a 50% decline in Revenues.

I just love these idiots who attack Obama's plan and offer up nothing in it's place.

Two Cents - I disagree. I'm offering up "people with money hire people who need money" in place of the huge spending spree. And please don't contend that the government has money. They only have what they can take from taxpayers or borrow. They're already broke.

That's the recipe that has ended every recession in history.

Why act in haste? We did that with Bush and Paulsen under the assumption that THAT bill would begin to alleviate change for the American people and look what happened. Billions were handed over to snappy companies that are still tight on lending. Not to mention that they want to continue to spend extravagantly as they are still posting net loses.

I say act with extreme apprehension. Oversight is key. If this gets pushed through with little strings like the last .. we have accomplished nothing.

DO NOT ACT IN HASTE!

Its not a sales pitch and no panic in the Presidents message and you are wrong, understanding the economic problem. Its URGENCY that is demanding this statement and if you don´t understand the urgency, you should not comment in this forum.

And the headline is wrong too. There is no such thing as an "irreversible recession", the author means, if we don´t act now we are on an IRREVERSIBLE WAY to a recession. which is true.

Politicos,

Obama is trying to fast track socialism before any of us can organize and mount a defense. He's admitted that without a far reaching spendulous plan, he may be looking at a one term presidency. As heartbreaking as that is to hear, we need to reject more government control and spending.

The American economy will respond to the time honored values of capitalism. Give companies faith that this system will be intact at the end of his four years and growth will occur. Corporations and families are all on edge worried that it's too late, the era of American socialism and mediocrity has been ushered in, stalling all growth.

politicos - anyone who claims they understand the problem, and says they have a sure-fire way for the federal government to spend its way out of it, should be committed.

It sounds like you're arguing for the idea that we have to do something, even if it's wrong.

Let's forget "stimulus" and pass a bill that extends unemployment benefits, gives tax breaks to companies that hire workers and provides financing for state and local infrastructure projects. Call it the "getting by until the economy turns around" bill.

"Never let a good crisis go to waste."

I've got a better quote for you

"Make haste slowly"- Ben Franklin

Politicos-you are incorrect. Obama gave a sales pitch period!!! The problem with his proposal is that most Americans see through this proposal for the joke that it is. The same can be said of Bush's TARP 1.

You say URGENCY...yet you completely ignore why the hell we got to this point to begin with. We got here because of government intervention and a piss poor monetary policy due to the Fed increasing the money supply and lowering interest rates which created the phony housing market. And yet Obama wants to increase the very things that got us here...pathetic!!

Here is a news flash for all you people who think that government spending is the way out of this disaster!! We will need to borrow an estimated $3 Trillion more for 2009 (low estimate)!! This will only increase in 2010. But here is the kicker...we borrow from the Chinese, Japenese, Saudi's, and Singapore when they buy our short-term T-Bills. My question is how the hell are we going to pay the interest on these T-Bills??? Oh...I guess we will either need to borrow more (that is if our foriegn creditors keep propping up our phony economy), or the Fed will print more, or the government will tax more. Either way, we the tax payer gets screwed and our purchasing power will continue to plummet until it is worthless!!

We should let the damn market work this out on its own. Bad companies/banks should fail period!! No more with bail outs!! This is a damn disgrace and what our government is now doing will make things worse and EXTEND the recession we are in!!

Red Packer, there are no jobs, and that's what's caused this mess. Heck, there may not be too many with money, by the time this hits bottom. So 'those with money hire those who need money' really doesn't do it. Doing nothing will accomplish nothing. Tax cuts certainly won't do it, since that's been a failure of long standing. Neither is giving billions to Wall Street, no strings attached, in hopes those CEOs will show some responsibility.

And I still maintain that economy aside, the infrastructure has to be repaired. Crumbling bridges, levees, dams, etc. cost us in cleanup expenses, and human lives, plus the structures have to be rebuilt anyway. Why not just repair them first? The fact it creates jobs is a bonus.

I do disagree with the opposition to 'Buy American.'

Yes the sky is falling. The day the first bank fell should have woke every single American. Obama is right, of course a recession can be irreversible. Take a look at a third world country to see our possible, likely (?) future. I would rather at least try to contain the damage than do nothing. Did you see the look of relief on Bush's face when job was over, can't blame him. Have to admire and respect obama, among many other things, his willingness to try and the personal sacrifices he and his family will make. The least we can do is support him, the man is not dumb.

well one thing thats really got me confussed is that he turned down more tax cuts well wasn't it tax cut he prommissed oh yea we can't trust a word that comes out of his mouth mr obama you should resign your office before you it gets to deap for you....

But he's right. You need to find someone else to hate. You one the Rush clones who want us to fail anyways. You lost now get lost. America has spoken

Because we disagree with Obama's pathetic bill, we must be Bush and Rush fans...this is too funny!! I can't stand Rush and I feel that Bush was a clown. As a U.S. taxpayer, I will continue to hold my elected leaders accountable.

People like yourself need to read up on monetary policy and try and understand the consequences when the money supply is artificially increased. Government and deficit spending will only increase the problems we are in. Stop listening to what politicians and main stream media forces down your throat!!

Right it's just a democratic ponzi scheme, that's why the Republican Governors flew to Washington to get behind it. It's okay to spend 750 billion in Iraq but god forbid we actually spend any money on our own people and their needs.

Tax cuts do not work when you're unemployed.

Instead of repairing our infrastructure and putting all those road crews back to work lets just give them a tax cut to supplement their new careers at McDonald's or better yet lets just keep paying them unemployment.

Two cents..how is government getting the money to pay those road crews, etc?? I do agree that we need to get the hell out of Iraq!!

President Obama wants it to pass soon so nobody really knows what's there. He is such an optomistic fellow isn't he? Every time he opens his mouth he spreads doom & gloom.

As soon as he passes this ridiculous bill he will then say that every company who got any assistance from our money will have to do things his way. Stop this nonsense now.

We fell for Paulson's. and where have things improved?

pull out the std education and other pork! reject the republican tax scheme to bail out real estate developers and speculators! increase mortgage re-structuring! triple the amount spent on infrastructure construction. then I'll support it.

Larry I agree with most that you said, but how the hell can we afford MORE infrastructure spending? Where is government going to get the money to pay for these things?

Benjamin Franklin said,

Make haste slowly

Obama's leadership skills just ain't there. Mister "reach across the isle". He can even reach to his own party let alone the concerns of people about the pork is HIS plan. He has time to go on TV to scare people but doesn't have the time to work with Congress. And thn he turns up the heat in the White House cause he's cold.... Hmmm tell you anything about what he says versus what he does? Boy I hope he learns how to lead soon!!!

"I just love these idiots who attack Obama's plan and offer up nothing in it's place."

The Republicans are offering things. Problem is, just as the Democrat plan is too far in one direction, the Republican plan is too far the other way. I mean, really - no spending, just tax cuts (DeMint's plan)? The states can't pay their bills now, so the solution is to cut off even more of their faltering revenue stream?

A lot of the things in the Democrat plan are good and worthwhile things, from a Democrat point of view (I am a Democrat, BTW). But not in *this* bill. Maybe next year. Maybe after the recession lightens up. But do what Obama promised - infrastructure, construction, actual stimulus spending. Even if the jobs are short-term .. they're *supposed* to be short-term! Sort of like tiding us over, until the economy gets back on it's feet, with the added benefit of doing long term good (like fixing roads, repairing bridges, upgrading mass transit, etc). They're supposed to be projects, not lifetime commitments.

please wont someone give me an educated response as to why obama refuses to tackle 2 of our biggest expenditures - the iraq war and illegals in this country - get out of iraq and afghanistan and save billions, kick out every illegal in the whole country and every state will save millions on welfare, housing, food stamps, education etc etc, jobs will be freed up, employers will hqave to hire american workers, and kick out everyone here working on a visa, send them home and make the companies hire americans, just these things i believe would really help the economy

Illegal Immigration? Heh that is not till the second term. also can you blame the guy. Remember his "Auntie" has been ordered to leave the country years ago and hasn't done so. Matter of fact she was at the inauguration and one of the Balls. Yet she cannot be found now.

Do you honestly think he is going to address this first term?

Wake up and smell the coffee. The sky is falling!!!! People loosing their investments, retirements, etc. All these companies are shutting down or cutting their work force in half. The businesses do not have the money to hire or even keep their current employees. Something needs to be done and fast. Our tax dollars are being used to help out but what about the people? Pretty soon I won't be able to afford my mortgage because of the taxes. If it wasn't for property tax, more people could afford to buy a home and KEEP IT! Its madness and I hate what this country has become! Nothing is certain anymore but I HAVE confidence in PRESIDENT OBAMA! HE WILL MAKE IT RIGHT AGAIN IN TIME OFCOURSE.

Hometown,

It's not politically correct at the moment.

"People who have money hire people who need money that is why we need the tax-cut to the rich."

Let's see here.

Rich people love animal coats. That would explain the dissapearence of 1 M Ground Hougs.

That would also explain the threat from Cheney who promissed the retaliation for not aproving the tax cuts for the rich. In his exact words, "Since Obama is closing Gitmos, we are at threat and we need the tax-cuts."

Huh?

Read the Jubak article on MSN Money. Obama knows what he's saying! If we don't do it fast and get it right the Great Depression Pt II is upon us.

Senator Jim DeMint of SC has made the most sense on this whole stimulus bill issue since it started. His plan removes all the pork and leaves the stimulus and he has really done his homework according to the presentation I saw him deliver in the Senate yesterday.

The economy will not fold overnight and this stupid "act now while this offer is still available" trick should be ignored. Rushing to pass a bloated bill is not the answer to this at all.

The Republicans did not creat this mess as you want to point the finger and say. You might remember it started back with Clinton and he hotly denied he left the next president, no matter who it would be, to have to deal with it. It is time to get over this type of accusation and deal with the present.

One clause alone in Obama's plan would spend $500M on providing 388 jobs. Do the math - 1.3M each when he just said he was capping the salaries at $500k. Another provides money for 3 hospitals only, yet another provides Habitat housing and repairs in the Bay Area only in California. Another is for uniforms that the material would be made in SC and supposedly sewn there as well but cheap labor in Honduras would probably end up doing that sewing instead. This was published by an independent group who read the whole 1400 pages of this plan.

Approving this in a hurry is just a ploy to get it passed before all this can be brought out in the open. There is no hurry to push this through in one day!

DO NOTHING is something. We don't NEED to do anything. Yes, there will be hard times. We will make it through without a outrageously big national debt. The dems criticised Bush for deficit spending his whole term to avoid recession and now they cant wait to throw money at it. STOP IT ALREADY!!!

"the iraq war and illegals in this country - get out of iraq and afghanistan and save billions, kick out every illegal in the whole country and every state will save millions on welfare, housing, food stamps, education etc etc, jobs will be freed up, employers will have to hire american workers, and kick out everyone here working on a visa, send them home and make the companies hire americans, just these things i believe would really help the economy"

Just exactly what do you think our armed forces people are going to do after the war? They get to come home to a country with no jobs! I'm so sure that will help our economy even more.

As for the illegals... well it would not just save millions if we got rid of them all and sent them back to where ever they came from, it would save our country BILLIONS. Have you not seen the statistics on what it is now costing us to have them living off our tax dollars? And once they were gone, there might actually be jobs for a few American citizens. Sure the people hiring them will be forced to pay at least minimum wage, but then again, since they are breaking the law by not doing so now, they deserve that. And please, don't give me that old story that Americans don't want to do the same work that the illegals are doing. I know plenty of out of work people that would be willing to do any job that earned them enough to put food on their tables and roof over their heads.

Many of the problems our nation is now having is due to our government not inforcing it's own laws. They are trying to be so politically correct that they won't toss the illegals (like BO's aunt) back to where they came from and on top of it, let them live in public housing, give them food stamps and a monthly check. In the meantime, hard working Americans get to foot the bill while they can barely feed their own family and pay the rent or mortgage.

Two Cents Worth:

You aren't paying attention.  The Republicans crafted a number of amendments that would actually create jobs and not just another spending program for STD's, ATV trails, etc. etc. etc. etc.  They were ALL voted down by EVERY Democrat.  NOT ONE was used.  Obama, Pelosi and Reid are rank amateurs.  The only way they can get anything done is by forcing it down someone's throat.  They are not interested in partisanship unless it means they can't get enough support from their own party.  Remember, it was Obama who has made the statement on several occasions since the inauguration that "We won".  All your guy needs to do is get his own team on board and you have the votes to get anything you want.  The Messiah, the uniter, the great one can't do that? Hmmmm.

President Reagan once said, "government is not the solution to our problems, government is the problem", when will people finely realise that economic cycles occur from time to time and the best way to deal with economic problems is to do only that which is absolutely necessary to protect the most vulnerable of our society. By government intrusion we are just extending the time before economic prosperity returns.

Why doesn't the President go line item by line item on National TV and explain the exact benefits of each item in the Stimulus. Let the press question him after each item is explained for even more in-depth discussion.

If this Bill is going to be our saving grace and the only way to save America the President should be more than willing to do so.

There is a HUGE amount of PORK in the present stimulus bill the president and Democrat congress is currently trying to ram down our throats, DO NOT FALL FOR IT.

S-621550, Obama will never do anything with the illegals except grant them amnisty. Each illegal equals one vote for him and the rest of the Democrats. The democratic party is where the entitlements are. Free ride. Don't have to pay taxes. Different set of laws etc...

If we do not act we will lose an additional 5 million jobs very quickly. True.

We have a defecit of 1.2 trillion dollars.

Imagine 5 million more folks collecting unemployment benefits. GDP has declined to 3.8, Unemployment is 7.2, manufacturing at 28 year low, worst January in umpteen, umpteen years. We are not ready to shout about it yet but it is close to irreversible, just like global warming, with just a few years left for the polar ice caps.

Package has to be the 'size and scope of our problems'. Obama did not create them. And by the way, he is no longer a Senator.

Two suggestions: 1) Watch C-Span and 2) Let's all give ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME a break.

When a politician says we need to act quickly I worry. The first bill was supposed to hit the street (it didn't) or the end was near. The situation now isn't good but considering that the first bill didn't do what it was supposed to do and we are still here we might want to take a good look at this and cut a bit of waste,(waste in Washington???) and put forward a decent bill that might have more of a chance to work. Some of the proposals don't seem to seem to apply to jobs in my view.

I think you hit it on the proverbial head!   Scare tactics usually mean the one trying to scare others into quick action does not have their, but his own, best interest at heart.  No president that I can remember has moved so quicky to sign bills - make changes - whatever - than this one.  I would feel much better if he took the time to read things he never had access to before and start to learn what the reality of the world situation is - and this country's.  Seems a lot of people are getting concerned about him - even the media of late has written some negatives - which would never have happened even three weeks ago.  Interesting.  We will recover, if the system is allowed to work the way it was meant to work.  Free enterprise - rise and fall at one's own expense - bankruptcy for businesses is what keeps things going and fixes problems - not bail outs and crazy programs to dump more tax payer money into.  The sky is NOT falling - smoke and mirrors - that is all I see.

Yeah, more housing tax breaks so the wealthy can buy a 2nd or 3rd vacation home and get a break on it at our expense. Who needs more housing??? Why put more people in homes, give em a tax break, and then they default b/c they lost their job as the economy tanks further. "Fix housing first" should revolve around keeping people in their current home, prevent foreclosures, not encouraging people to penny pinch some more so they can afford to to buy a new home just to get the tax break!

The only people in a position to buy a new home at the moment are the wealthy! Once again, the GOP tries to make it seem like they are helping their everday constituents but in reality, it's only the wealthy.

"Red Packer, there are no jobs, and that's what's caused this mess. Heck, there may not be too many with money, by the time this hits bottom. So 'those with money hire those who need money' really doesn't do it."

Of course it does it, what in that comment was incorrect? Those with money hire those without...now how do you think they get the money to hire more people, by government taking even MORE from the businesses, or simply from taking less for a time? That's right, take less, and hey, look at that, there's more money.

Bush gave us a world record corporate tax along with record business taxations, rates, and fees. Businesses couldn't afford the costs, and lo and behold, here we are with businesses closing down, outsourcing, cutting jobs, and inflating prices. So yes, the solution IS simple. Take less to allow those with money to actually have the money, they bring back more jobs which helps business by leading to more people spending on products and services, and thus MORE jobs are created and businesses make even greater profit and continue to expand. That's how this country reached the level it did.

By taking a LOWER percentage, we're talking about greater profits and more jobs to increase spending, bringing even more money for the government even as the percentage taken is less, which allows them to afford the projects they want WITHOUT it costing us our jobs, crippling businesses, and destroying the economy. So yep, saying "those with money hire those without" is the exact answer we need. Worded simplistically, but it's still right on. If government takes less than the world record costs the fiscal liberal Bush created, there will be more, which will allow those with that more to hire those with less. It's simple, but Robin Hood Obama doesn't want people to think he's supporting the wealthy, even though supporting the wealthy is the ONLY answer that can bring positive change. Help the rich in order to help the poor and middle class. Hurt the rich to cripple the poor and wealthy. Can't attack one without hurting the rest, plain and simple, and Obama's package hurts every last one of us.

You mentioned that there are no jobs, but seem to be ignoring WHY there are no jobs. The simple reason is, government took more and businesses couldn't afford it. So take less, and they can hire again, just like what was said that for some reason you don't seem to think would do it, when it's the one and only way to "do it."

Look at the history of the depression. Hoover failed to do anything till it was too late. The famous the fundamentals of the economy are sound was first said by him. FDR tried to do something but it wasn't enough. The only thing that got us out of it was WWII. Which was financed by printing money. The percentage of GDP of the stimulis bill is still less than WW II. All we need to is destroy Europe and Japan so we can rebuild them.

jekyll,

I don't see infrastructure spending as being wasteful, so long as the projects are needed and provide a continuing public benefit. Bridges are a perfect example, along with highways, sewer systems, the electric power grid, water treatment plants, etc., etc. These are all things that we as a civilized country require for our advancement. They are investments and not wasteful spending. It's like a farmer buying a new tractor to replace a broken one. Not spending, it's investment because of the continuing benefits that accrue....that was the original idea behind the stimulus package, before the house dems porked it up. since the infrastructure work will be required at some point anyway, might as well do it now and boost the economy in the process.

too bad its degenerated into another food fight among 3rd graders.

and I both agree and disagree with Obama on the timing of the bill. I agree that the stimulus is needed quickly, but I disagree that we should pass the bill as it stands. We need to get it right more than we need to get it immediately.

Senator Jim DeMint of SC has made the most sense on this whole stimulus bill issue since it started. His plan removes all the pork and leaves the stimulus and he has really done his homework according to the presentation I saw him deliver in the Senate yesterday.

I saw him on CSPAN at one of the committees. He's got some good ideas.

All the fear press is working though. My business had the best December we've had since we opened our business 10 years ago.

Now? We haven't had any new jobs in about a month. Nothing coming into our shop. And our area wasn't hit with all the foreclosures and so on. Our two biggest repeat customers told us at the beginning of January, not to expect anything from them in the near future, as their businesses pretty much came to a hault.

What needs to be done about this bill, is to pass a good short term stimulus and leave the rest for a later vote.

Just strip out the $300 Billion in Pork that Pelosi put in to reward her supporters for backing the Democrats and doesn't stimulate any jobs, and then get the Bill passed.

Then we can get on with the economic recovery.

If all the Pork remains, then I hope the Republicans in the Senate take a cue from the House Republicans and all vote NO.

It might surprise people to know that, since the Recession started over 12 months ago, only about 2% of the workers have lost their jobs. 98% of the number of people employed in December of 2007 were still working at the end of December 2008. Not exactly a "Depression". All the "Doom and Gloom" is nothing but political cover for the biggest Democratic spending spree in history.

It's amazing that they are working hard to trim $100B from a $920B pork plan that only has $300B in spending/tax cuts that have anything to do with creating/saving jobs. The average citizen could cut $500-$600B in 15-20 mins - these idiots haven't got a clue.

The democrates put in too much pork. The republican offered alternatives a month too late.

The centrists have taken over this bill. It won't be small but at least it will get done. Both parties are diminished by thier lack of action.

Roy,

the common econ statistics of unemployment rate, inflation, and GDP are not sufficient to characterize the current situation. the current method of calculating unemployment rate grossly underestimates the number of people who want to work. the BLS has fiddled with the methodology 2 or 3 times since the Carter era, so direct comparisons are not valid. the foreclosure rate, the amount of personal debt, the trade deficit, the government accounts deficit, the unsold housing inventory, and lots of other economic indicators all point to a very serious and dangerous situation. It's currently not nearly as bad as the great depresison, more like the late 70s. But it could get much worse and I think we should try to prevent that from happening.

President Barack (BOHICA) Obama has done it to the U.S. again. Anybody who votes for this should be brought to trail for Treason against the American people.

"And I still maintain that economy aside, the infrastructure has to be repaired. Crumbling bridges, levees, dams, etc. cost us in cleanup expenses, and human lives, plus the structures have to be rebuilt anyway. Why not just repair them first?"

Why not repair them first? Simple, because businesses will be forced to pay those costs, and businesses will cut even more jobs to compensate. This costs more jobs than it creates, and the only jobs created are temporary. Cripple the long term job market to create a few temporary positions, not very forward thinking. First, we need to take LESS from the job creators, not using them to pay for these projects right off the bat. Then, as less is being taken, more jobs will be produced. More jobs equals more spending, means that businesses will boost even higher and create more jobs, which brings greater profits, which brings in MORE money to the government even as they take a lower percentage, which brings the necessary funds to pay for those infrastructure projects. But it means that we don't take hundreds of billions now and start the work immediately, which doesn't go with Obama's attempts to gain popularity by showing things in action, ignoring the long term consequences of those immediate actions of course. We can't just take and take some more from the job creators when their businesses are already failing, the one and only solution is to take less from them in order to give them opportunities to expand, which benefits us all and after a short time would begin to bring in more money to the government as well. Just taking, with the excuse that the work needs doing, so let's do it now, would severely cripple the job market and the economy. Unfortunately, it looks as if this may very well be what is about to happen with the passage of any amount of this package.

Who really knows which version will be "passed" and what, exactly, it will contain.

We, the American people, will have no say as to the content of this stimulus.

We, the American people, are going to have to pay for it.

If they would post the bill in it's entirety, and if we could review it, and if I knew for a fact that everyone in DC had fully read and understood it, I might be a little comfortable.

But I don't think anyone who is voting on this really understands it's content, version, etc.

Scary stuff.

Two Cents Worth. Your nick says it all. Your information is worth about 2 cents. You just don't get it. Eveidently you are a person every sales person loves. They sell you a product and all you hear is what you want, enough to buy it. Try doing some studying on history of Presidents and you will see why Obama's stimulis package will not work. As of right now, he has 54% of the people NOT in approval of the pork package.

This year, it looks like taxpayers will receive an Economic Stimulus Payment as part of the huge stimulus bill. This is a very exciting new program that has been explained by the Obama administration using the Q and A format.

Q. What is an Economic Stimulus Payment?

A. It is money that the federal government will send to taxpayers.

Q. Where will the government get this money?

A. From taxpayers.

Q. So the government is giving me back my own money?

A. Only a smidgen.

Q. What is the purpose of this payment?

A. The plan is that you will use the money to purchase goods and services, thus stimulating the economy.

Q. Rather than giving me back a smidgen of my money wouldn't it be better to let me keep all of it and there'd be more for me to spend that way.

A. The government has expenses in coming up with this bill and putting it in place, so they can't give back all the money.

Q. What kind of expenses?

A. A trillion dollars is a lot of money. It's not easy coming up with things to spend that much money on. The President, and his aides, as well as all the Senators and Representatives have been working diligently to come up with this bill to save the country. They have their regular salaries, plus their retirement plans, health plans, chauffeurs, interns and don't forget the raise they are getting.

Q. I thought we were in the worst financial shape since the Great Depression. Why are they getting a raise? Can't they take a pay cut like President Obama wants the CEOs of companies that got TARP funds to do?

A. That's all the questions for today.

Tell that to the millions of people who have lost their jobs in the last 12 months. Tell them they don't matter.

Something needs to be done and urgently to stop the bleeding.

How about this plan for starters: give every WORKING American a 50% payroll tax cut. In other words, if you pay 20% of your salary in taxes, your payment would be reduced to 10%. That way, WORKING Americans could get an IMMEDIATE pay raise and THEY could spend THEIR increased income as THEY see fit, which would IMMEDIATELY increase spending at the local level and create jobs for those not working.

However, I realize that such a plan would never be approved by the government because then the government wouldn’t have OUR money to spend as THEY see fit. The government wants OUR money to spend on THEIR pet projects designed to please THEIR friends, buy votes, and ensure that entrenched politicians remain in power. Otherwise, how would lobbyists and cronies of our esteemed government officials get rewarded for their financial backing of career government scoundrels?

My plan lets people keep more of the money THEY earn to spend as THEY please. In contrast, the government tells us that their stimulus package will create jobs when the money is doled out in 2010. But how? By sending hundreds of millions of dollars overseas to pay for abortions, spend millions more to establish shelters for prostitutes, or use more money to study global warming, which Al Gore said was already a scientific fact? The government stimulus package is so full of idiotic pork-barrel spending that our elected leaders should be ashamed of what they’re proposing to solve America’s economic crisis. They just don’t make sense!

hey this could be the biggest thing since him delaying the tv switch over. He must pay back the unions who invested in excess of $300,000,000 in his campaign. ITs PAYBACK time the democraps want tor aise taxes who cares they do not pay them we stupid others pay them. Daschle franke dodd gietner franken etal. what a great country

dimitrix, excellent idea and this should be done before a final vote by Congress!

No Pork, No Special Interests, strong ethics. Between BarackO and Pandering Pelosi, all we are getting is a CROCK OF BROWN SMELLY STUFF. They are using the big lie to further their SOCIALIST AGENDA by sliding non-economic items into a bill and calling it a stimulus. If they had any moral integrity, they would deal with most of this in the normal manner so that it could be exposed for the WASTE that it is. IMPEACH PELOSI for lies.

I think the democrats should tell the republican obstructionists to go to h_ll. Then they should announce their names on TV every day and inform Americans that these idiots wanted their pork and didn't care about America. All they want is Obama to fail. Every day on every network.

The sky has already fallen.....we are into a massive downward spiral....few are going to survive. We have already thrown 350 billion down the too big to fail rat hole....and now we are arguing about how to stimulate a dead horse. Our law makers had better get serious...every day that they continue business as usual reprsents nother day of a massive implosion. Get smart....get it done....and do it now!!!!!

I don't know which sky you are looking at, but I see pieces of it falling all over the place. Right now my business is still hanging in there, but we've lost ("put on hold indefinitely) projects that had been approved. People have lost jobs in droves; businesses are closing; homes are foreclosed... where exactly are you standing that none of these pieces are in your view?!?

Unemployment numbers have burst a hole in the sky. I don't know how the country can afford to support this many unemployed and unproductive people. If I have to pay for the unemployed, why can't I pay to help them have jobs? At least the infrastructure can be rebuilt. We can replace the fragile electric grid. We can start toward a greener and less foreign dependent country.

Unemployment wages don't stimulate anything - so should we get rid of unemployment? Talk about free money! Work for nothing. That's a concept.

It's been proven that tax cuts don't increase anything. The Republicans have tried that policy of giving more and more tax cuts to the rich - and look at where we are.

Yes, we need to cut out the pork from the stimulus bill. But both Republicans and Democrats are pulling that nonsense. I think tax cuts are pork, so it's not going to be an easy compromise.

But something must be done. Both of my grandfathers worked for the WPA during the Depression. There were no other jobs to be had. And that's where our roads and bridges and dams came from - and that was long enough ago that they need to be repaired / replaced. Let's put people back to work and fix our problem of a declining infrastructure and unemployment together.

Quit listening to Limbaugh too! You talk about serious brainwashing! I'd say there's your empty suit, but it's not empty it's full of hot air and millions of dollars. He's raking in the millions while you fools let him fill your heads with nothing.

Free health care...In England means waiting 6 months after diagnosis to have a hernia repaired. In Canada means you are having chest pains? The test you need you can't get here (Windsor, Ontario). Go visit your sister in the USA, claim you have chest pains, go to a hospital, you will get the test you need. These are true stories. The heart one is my sister in law. A European study of health care world wide said our health care system is the best in the world yet Obama wants to get government control...why? Socialism...it is ahead of us unless we reign Obama and the democrat congress in now.

Obama's Marxist fear-mongering is disgusting.

Yep, pass the bill WITHOUT even reading it, the ultimate revenge against Bush?

Plenty of pork, more than even a little, in fact there is pork for Nanci Peloski, Harry Reid, and a host of others. They want pork sandwiches for their illegel immigrants, including welfare, social security, free medical, and they have a long list of folks they plan on fat catting it to.

The sad part is that EVERYTHING has changed, but NOTHING has changed. The only change you will have left is that in your pocket, if that. The first stimulous was $780 million plus, this one $900 million plus, and they want to pass it without even reading the document. Thank goodness there are some Democrats who are responsible, who are willing to say WHOA...let's look at that. You don't get rid of a problem by simply throwing money at it! The banks and mortgage companies with these loans need to be allowed to lose their shirts, then their CEOs will be fired, not rewarded with spa retreats, junkets to Las Vegas, and given bonuses. If you don't have any more than $100,000 in the bank, you're not in danger. That was why it was there. Only the rich suffer when the company they invested in folds. Imagine one of them having to work for a living like the rest of us do?

I'm not even a Democrat or a Republican and I can see through this scam. Cannot anyone else with some common sense?

You need to call and write your representatives and congressmen and congresswomen, and tell them the bill needs to be read, from cover to cover, before they vote, and that you don't want that pork in there. So far there is nothing to save the homeowners nor anything that will create long lasting jobs....duh? The thought of borrowing more money from taxpayers and not just taxpayers but your children and grandchildren, just to throw money at the problem, is going to leave the USA a third world nation. Yes, it is time to gather up your courage....and tough it out. I worked two jobs at times, and nobody gave me a handout nor offered one. Some of your congressmen and congresswomen have no clue what it is to hold a job....they've been taking from you for years, and I'm talking about both Democrats and Republicans....it's time to stop the madness. Vote NO NO NO! Let the market settle onto itself. That's what they do best, to weed out the poor businessmen who are fat catting off your tax dollars...

Does anyone who happens to be reading and is not part of this shrill group know of a similar forum where I may discuss with intelligent and thoughtful adversaries their reasoned objections to Obama's positions.

There may possibly be a reasoned and sensible alternative to the current plan but I find it offensive to have to sift through all the venom and absurdities posted to search for it.

WAKE UP AMERICA!!!(before it's too late!)!!

This Spending Bill will cost you and me well over $1 trillion -- and
> liberals in Congress are using this "stimulus" to funnel billions of
> dollars into social programs and pork projects that have nothing to
> do with our economy.
>
> In fact, according to Newsmax com, many economists are "beginning to sound
> alarms that the U.S. economy is perilously close to a 'tipping point,’
> where so many voters will be on the public payroll it will be politically
> impossible to rein in entitlement programs."
>
> The Obama Spending Plan could push us past the point of no return!
>
>
> This is outrageous... especially considering is a better way... a proven
> way to stimulate the economy.
>
> Tax cuts!
>
> And there is a bill in Congress that will cut our taxes, put the
> "stimulus" in the hands of taxpayers, and create millions of jobs.
>
> So, please call your two Senators and say:
>
> #1 -- "I oppose this bogus stimulus/spending plan that further bankrupts
> our nation and burdens future generations."
>
> #2 -- "I want a real stimulus that cuts business and personal income
> tax rates and puts the stimulus directly into my hands."

Pass this on to every AMERICAN you know!!! Tell them to PLEASE act on it NOW!!

All I see are a bunch of partisan attacks and garbage painted up with lipstick

The reason for the urgency is obvious to anyone - our economy is still shedding jobs, contracting. At some point servcicng the poverty eats up our economy more than stimulating it now; we are cannibalizing the economy to suit conservative economic miscues.

"There is no such thing as an irreversible recession" - well ... yes and no. It depends on whether you simply define it as having ended or you look for measures that it has ended. remember, in 2000 under Clinton the Stock Market hit 14,000 and it hasn't been there again - we simply had an 8 year recession from that high - that is one definition. Employment hasn't yet returned to the levels of 2000, another measure. We were actually running a surplus under Clinton, the last 8 years we doubled the national debt to neraly 11 Trillion; another measure. The first Bush recession still hasn't had a recovery by these measures.

"people with money hire people who need money" - this is the biggest lie that has ever come down the pike. Demand creates jobs, IF this actually worked people with money would be hiring right now not laying off. This is a fantasy held by those who have no logical sense of economics.

"Do not act in haste" except that the situation gets worse, will cost more to fix the deeper you get. The bank bailout was NOT a "fix all" bill, it was to slow the fall in banking; this childish notion that our economic problems will all magicly go away if only the perfect bill is passed is just so much trash yet it litters the rabid right radio shows. let me say it again WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING BEFORE IT GETS WORSE because WORSE is much more expensive to fix

"Obama is trying to fast track socialism" pldease go away this forum is for intelligent conversation not complete nutzery. And anyone using the non-word "spendulus", etc.; same comment - try to put it positively as to what you would do instead of childish and insane trash like this, all you are doing is telling people to ignore whatever real comment you might have when you shout "I'm Insane" at the top of your lungs with this crap.

"anyone who claims they understand the problem, and says they have a sure-fire way for the federal government to spend its way out of it" - Well, lets see; this has worked for several recessions, a depression; but No! It couldn't possibly work again, could it? (sarcasm intended for those too illiterate to see it)

In Business School this is called the multiplier effect; for every 1 dollar spent approximately 6 dollars of econopmic activity is generated throughout the economy.

"there are no jobs, and that's what's caused this mess. Heck, there may not be too many with money, by the time this hits bottom. So 'those with money hire those who need money' really doesn't do it. Doing nothing will accomplish nothing. Tax cuts certainly won't do it, since that's been a failure of long standing. Neither is giving billions to Wall Street, no strings attached, in hopes those CEOs will show some responsibility.

And I still maintain that economy aside, the infrastructure has to be repaired. Crumbling bridges, levees, dams, etc. cost us in cleanup expenses, and human lives, plus the structures have to be rebuilt anyway. Why not just repair them first? The fact it creates jobs is a bonus."

That is so true

"one thing thats really got me confussed is that he turned down more tax cuts" - tax cuts are not stimulatory - they have not stimulated the economy and, in fact, generally hurt the economy - Nearing has an articles with statistics; check her column. there are $275 Bn in tax cuts, Obama has said that is enough for now (there will, no doubt, be other bills later)

"I just love these idiots who attack Obama's plan and offer up nothing in it's place." - So do I. Especially the ones who say let them all fail - that puts us in a depression - and when they lose their jobs they will be saying .....

Another thing I love is those who take on one part not understanding that one man's pork is another man's necessity. For example STD education - obviously if STD's are on the rise, better efforts to fight it including planning are called for. The claim that it is pork assumes that it is not needed (foolish); while the claim that it doesn't belong in a stimulus bill is. at best, questionable. Where does it belong and why hasn't it been done before now?

"please wont someone give me an educated response as to why obama refuses to tackle 2 of our biggest expenditures - the iraq war and illegals in this country" - Obama has already directed the military to come up with a plan to get out of Iraq (he's been in office how many days?" and statistics show that we get more money from illegals than they cost no matter what the rabid right wants to tell you; Lou Dobbs, etc.

"Senator Jim DeMint of SC has made the most sense on this whole stimulus bill issue" LOL LOL ROTFLMAO

"The Republicans did not creat this mess" Well then who was in charge the last 8 years? Who claimed that we got out of the last TWO recessions?

And blaming it on Clinton? That was two recessions ago and two tax cuts ago. Get real, Clinton got us into a surplus, 8 years of Bush got us over 5 Trillion of debt!

"when will people finely realise that economic cycles occur from time to time" - except that this is NOT an economic cycle; there IS a reason for this crisis and it is not just a cyclic slowdown (note that in the cycle theory downturns occur approximately every 7 - 8 years and this is Bush's second in that time; this is going to be a mess because it was caused by Bush changing the banking laws to, essentially, legalize gambling (CDS, etc.) and when bankers lost their bets they wre playing with other people's money

"By government intrusion we are just extending the time before economic prosperity returns." apparently you know nothing of macro-economics. the Government is always intrusive because it is a consumer; reduce Government spending and you reduce demand (and then consumers see the reduced demand, stop buying and you get into a death spiral); increase government spending and more people have jobs, money and spend it which ripples throughout the whole economy - the estimate used in business school is 6 times the original spending.

The government intrudes simply by existing; this comment is yet another rabid right wing fantasy

"Why doesn't the President go line item by line item on National TV and explain the exact benefits of each item in the Stimulus. Let the press question him after each item is explained for even more in-depth discussion.

If this Bill is going to be our saving grace and the only way to save America the President should be more than willing to do so." - this is a good comment but let me answer it (1) congress fills in the details, not the president; (2) as he said this is not a perfect bill (and no bill ever is) you need to do something NOW to restore consumer confidence that the sky isn't falling. Nobody says this bill is our "saving grace", only that it is significantly better than doing nothing

I would like to see presidents do what you say - the problem is that Congress can amend anything they want - those people right now decrying the bill do not understand that there are yet more processes and after the senate comes up with it's version, it goes to conference committee which can again change anything and in fact add more spending or tax cuts if they want, and then both houses have to vote on the conference committee version and could send that back for further modifications. This is like arguing about what color the umbrella should be; we just need an umbrella.

?

If we do not act we will lose an additional 5 million jobs very quickly. True.

We have a defecit of 1.2 trillion dollars.

Imagine 5 million more folks collecting unemployment benefits. GDP has declined to 3.8, Unemployment is 7.2, manufacturing at 28 year low, worst January in umpteen, umpteen years." - Very true (by the way, depending on the measure used this is the worst in 26, 41, or 61 years) Like he says imagine 5 million more unemployed. not being able to buy cars, housing, living on the streets? And all it takes to keep this frokm happening is to act on something NOW; spending (on things we need) and not tax cuts (that hurt the economy)

I agree wholeheartedly. Thank you for drawing attention to the lack of civility and critical thinking on the part of many of those who posted here.

On the other hand, taking into consideration to how low our educational standards have fallen in this country, the sophmoric flippant remarks don't surprise me at all.

Know what I think is funny? Everyone thinks the only way to save the country is to throw money at it. I'm 46 years old and I have never in my life bought a new car. Because of incentives given by the MANUFACTURER, not the government, I am now, for the first time ever, seriously considering ORDERING a new car. That new Challenger just has "buy me" written all over it now. lol

Free market can recover itself. It may cost them some profits in the short term, but when they truly decide to do something, they can win. How is throwing a billion dollars at a problem while they are still overcharging services going to help anyone?

The President needs to get this one RIGHT. He's been the CLOWN in Washington for a while now and the PORK needs to be eliminate from the BILL. What part of this don't you understand MR.PRESIDENT. What's his problem? SICKEL CELL ANEMIA is a good excuse. He's a damn idiot in my book. Do something for the people. If you don't like my comments then read the damn STIMUUS BILL if you can read at all. All 647 damn pages of it. Read it or shut you mouth. God, What a joke. HOMIE THE CLOWN at his best.

Republican Senators say NO NO NO NO to the stimulus plan, WAY to much pork. We are with you. I don't want ACORN to have a penny. They are part of the reason our economy is in the predicament it is in. They are thugs, liars and obama is their buddy. Taxpayers should not have to pay for illegal aliens medical etc., let them go back to Mexico or Cuba and apply legally to become a citizen.

to the right,

to the right,

to the right,

march,

march,

march,

march,

to the right,

to the right,

march,

march,

march,

march,

to the right,

to the right,

march,

march

KEEP IT UP, you bunch of ditto heads. keep repeating what you hear from the right. Don't anyone every look up history.

3 consecutive Repbulican president (with deregulations) + realestate buble + banks failures/Wall Stree free fall => Great Depression

Almost 3 consecutive Republican president (with deregulations) + realestate buble + bank failures / wall street sever down turn => ????

fine, keep fillabusting, keep going, screw the middle class... DO YOU ACTUALLY THINK YOU'RE NOT THE MIDDLE CLASS. freakin Ditto Heads..

We absolutely have to act now. Enough of this ridiculous foot-dragging. We elected Obama because we trust him more than any of the other bastards. Do what he wants to do. There is no possible way it could fail as spectacularly as what we've had the last 8 years.

How does congress wrestle with this? Damn, give us a break. Get rid or the PORK and pass the damn thing. It seems like a no brainer to me. All of those mental giants trying for figure this one out, God help us. What a group of BOZO's. If it's not right then make it right. What part of that don't they understand./ IDIOTS

"Senator Jim DeMint of SC has made the most sense on this whole stimulus bill issue since it started. His plan removes all the pork and leaves the stimulus and he has really done his homework according to the presentation I saw him deliver in the Senate yesterday."

So let's give a tax cut to the millions (close to 3 million) who have lost their jobs since the recession started. And what will those people do? Go out and spend this extra money on a TV, therefore keeping people who sell and manufacture TVs in business?

Uhhmmmm ... no. They're gonna put it in the bank, because they have no other source of income. (this assumes a lump sum rebate, like Bush tried. A reduction in their weekly taxes - which is a tax *cut* - would be meaningless, since they have no weekly income. No job, remember?)

And what has that stimulated? Not a durn thing, that I can see.

Maybe the tax cuts are for business. Let's see - supply isn't the problem; the goods are there. There's no demand (those without jobs can't afford to buy, those of us with jobs are afraid to buy, in case we need to keep the cash, in case we lose our own jobs). So what we need is something to increase demand.

Like maybe creating jobs via infrastructure spending, because employed people have money to spend and buy the goods?

Just some thoughts. I'm like the rest of you - just a guy who posts on a website. People who post on websites always have all the answers, and they're always obvious and easy. :-)

If one will read what IS in the present stimulus bill you will see its nothing but PORK BARREL spending for all the Democrat's separate states. BILLIONS to foundations, etc...very little in actual stimulus bill spending. NO individual or family stimulus checks for those who paid taxes last year. I guess Obama is saying screw those people.....

A Recovery Plan CAN Do More Than One Thing At A Time!

Great speech tonight, Mr. President. You are coming close but you are just missing making your sale.

I have been frustrated the last two weeks listening to the blathering Cable Heads yelling at each other about all the "pork" in Obama's economic recovery plan. Yes there are earmarks and yes I would have different ones, probably, than those in the plan. BUT, and this is huge: I can see what Obama is doing...and it is so logical to him that he takes it for granted it will be logical to everyone else.

He should be saying:

We don't have to choose between a stimulus bill and lowering health care costs...we can do both. And we can improve the quality of health care in the process.

We don't have to choose between a stimulus plan and reducing our dependence on fossil fuels...we can do both and start solving our global warming problem one step at a time.

We don't have to choose between no tax cuts or tax cuts for the wealthy...we can have tax cuts for the huge population of the middle class that will actually stimulate the economy, unlike tax cuts for the wealthy which have been proven to be not to be stimulative.

We don't have to choose between a stimulus bill and people keeping their homes. Between people starving after losing a job or having at least modest unemployment benefits. Between people going to emergency rooms because they don't have insurance and funding insurance so they stay well and don't tax our overburdened health-care system.

We can pay for our social programs and save money at the same time. Is there anyone out there who doubts that vaccinations, birth control, antibiotics when needed, spare the economy much more than they cost? It's easy to laugh about condoms until you look at the statistical cost of unwed teenage mothers.

We don't have to allow our states to go bankrupt dealing with the outfall of bad decisions over the last decade: we can support them while reducing their need for support by bringing in new jobs in new categories.

So, Mr. Obama, PLEASE: Explain this economic recovery plan in terms that the real people of this country can understand. You are instinctively doing what is right but you aren't articulating what you are doing.

Economic recovery plans, like Presidents, can and should do more than one thing at a time.

Franette Armstrong

Walnut Creek, CA

In my 70 years I have NEVER heard such a sad address to the nation. Does he think he's still running for office with this continuation of campaign rhetoric? Obama needs to stop the blame-game, develope sound economic solutions in line with his campaign promises and he needs to display some quiet confidence in his proposals. This is not a time to hollar and yell in order tor promote devisivness. A very scary leadership is evolving and I hope he grows up and changes course very soon.

“Let's look at the record.

During the 20th century, the Dow Jones industrial average rose 7.3 percent per year on average under Republican presidents. Under Democrats, it rose 10.3 percent - which means that investors gained a whopping 41 percent more. And the stock market declined further during George Bush's two terms.

Moreover, according to research from Professor Larry Bartels of Princeton, real middle class wage growth is double when a Democrat is president, contrasted to that growth under a Republican president.

Since World War II, Democratic presidents have increased the national debt by an average of 3.7 percent per year, and Republican presidents have increased it an average of 10.1 percent. During the same time period, the unemployment rate was, on average, 4.8 percent under Democratic presidents; it was 6.3 percent under Republicans.

That's the historical record.”www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/10/18/IN5C13H0J5.DTL

"You can't solve a problem by the same thinking that created it.." Einstein

Conservatives - your guy was in the office 8 years and what a disaster! HNN Poll: 61% of Historians Rate the Bush Presidency Worst ever. Now just 20% of Americans own a remarkable 84% of US wealth, leaving only 16% of the wealth for the bottom 80%. /sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

You had your turn, you screwed up the whole world economy and Iraq isn't looking real good right now either. 1 trillion in the toilet.

Maybe you guys should be a bit quiet and see of O can fix this thing.

Stimulus and Pork are just two words that mean the exact same thing. Please give me a discernible difference between the proposals in that bill. Put all the "Pork" in Column A, and all the "Stimulus" in Column B. Maybe then I'll start taking you right-wing nutjobs seriously.

For those of you needing a little perspective on what a trillion dollars might look like, imagine this ... a stack of $100 bills.

The thickness of a new $100 bill is 0.0043 inches. So let's start stacking them.

$10,000 (100 bills) would be a stack .43 inches thick. Less than 1/2 inch.

$1 million (10,000 bills) would be a stack 43 inches thick. Or a little over 3.5 feet.

$1 billion (10 million $100 bills) would be a stack nearly 12 football fields high, right at 2/3 of a mile.

Now for the big one ... $1 trillion would be a stack of $100s bill over 678 miles high. Ironically, that's roughly the distance between Washington, DC and Chicago, IL. We're not talking end-to-end or side-by-side. These $100 bills are stacked.

The time's come to start reading US history again. All conservatives and neo-cons would do well to read about FDR and the Bank Holiday that saved capitalism in this country. Its time to realize that we need to act in the national interest and not just trust that the market will save the day.

Franette,

Interesting perspective. Perhaps you are correct. He may be overestimating the general public's capacity to understand comprehensive policy. That is a rather disheartening indictement of the state of the Nation until you remember that he did win 367 electoral votes despite the equally vicious demagoguery he was subjected to.

skipastar

Probably neither you nor Obama are old enough to have seen the ups and down in the economy as I have. I am old enough to be Obama's mother, and probably yours as well. Socialism never solved anything. FDR started it with his CCC camp and WPA, where three men were given work by the government and went on the job, one leaned on the shovel, one just looked off into space and one did the work, while the taxpayers paid their wages! The only thing that saved the economy then was WWII. It also cost a lot of our best citizens lies, but the economy stabelized.

Then in the 60's, more socialistic do-gooders bills began to pass agin and again our best citizens went off to war, and the Bay of Pigs in Cuba as well.

Later, Jimmy Carter started his little socialistic regime,which is still kicking around costing taxpayers money again, and not benefitting any real citizen.

Now we have Pelosi who want us to support and care for the criminals who break our immigration laws.

Can't you see!? These kinds of measures only make things worse. If people HAVE to work or if people fail and HAVE to pull themseves up by ther bootstraps, that is when both the people and the economy survive and do well and are rewarded with a little personal pride. Nothing is accomplished by hand-outs.

Americans need to learn to toughen up!

I want my democracy back!!

That is what you are looking at here, only worse

politicos

Man! He's put the fear of God in you, and he isn't God! He is just a poor man who made himself out to be very bright, and now he wants to put the country back to 1930 and FDR's failed plan. We need to get back to a democracy, a country for the people. What he's handing us is the road to servitude.

Wake up! Contact your representatives in Congress and advise them not to pass this pork bill!

The people have been sold a bill of goods. During President Bushes administration the unemployment rate was right around 5% for every month of his presidency until 12-08, the one and only month when the rate was 7.2%

During the Clinton years there were SIX months when the rate was over 7%

Kennedy's rate wasn't any better than Bushes. So stop the nonsense.

The sky did not fall! We were working ourselves into being a welfare state, but we were not better employed at that time. Now the panic driven by some very dramatic campaigning has helped to reduce employment. Just keep thinking things will get bad and they will.

Leave a democracy alone! It works without por barrel spending!

Unlikely Banter

Bet you believe in Santa Claus too! People who lived in that time as I did know better. The only reason it worked is because he brought us WWII with many aircraft and ammo jobs, ship building, toward the end of a lot of lost soldiers and lonely widows.

You think the Iraq war was bad (and of course it is bad when any brave military person is injured or loses his/her live) look at the stats for WWII.

The problem we have is not the economy it is our lack of qualified leadership.

Listen to the experienced economist who talk about these problems. There are those that are not defending party lines.

A recession is not stoppped by printing money and borrowing money. Doing those two things will increase inflation. Inflation will further cost jobs and further stall the economy. These activities will deepen the degree and length of the recession.

The current recession was caused by a housing crash. The housing crash was the direct result of government deciding that everyone should own a home. The downside to that government program is that not everyone can afford a home. How true we know that now. So defaults go sky high, defaults cause home prices to fall and the market falls because of values and loan products that were tied to ever increasing property values. This housing crash then causes losses to lending institutions which then make money harder to come by which then causes people to loss jobs. Bingo you have a recession. The lesson is that government instituted a flawed program. So those same leaders now tell us they know how to fix the problem - more spending, more debt more government rules and more government intervention. They are making it worse not better. Why do we listen to them?

Government should not pick who fails or who succeeds. Government should not employ America as a solution. Government should incent business to grow. Government should let failed businesses go out of business. These big banks spent money recklessly - so we gave them billions more and then complained when they spent that money recklessly. We expected something different from them?

Stimulus package should not be a spending package it should be a rework of tax structures to stimulate the creation of jobs. Funny, can't seem to find that in the stimulus package. Also rather interesting that we must act now, time is of the essence, hurry up. Yet 80% of the immediately needed stimulus package does not kick in until 2010 and beyond. What is such a big hurry if it can wait for 2010? Why not just approve 20% of the package since that is all that is immediately needed.

People we have a tractor trailer stalled on the train tracks with a train full of people coming at an alarming speed and the Politicians are debating a lug nut on the trucks rear tire. We have the Democrats on one side of the truck wanting to paint the truck and the other side Republicans wanting to give the trucks owner a tax cut so that they can buy a new lug nut. The thought that is not coming from either side is getting the truck off the tracks. Heaven forbid they work together and push the truck off the tracks.

I am a Doctor and will not benefit one bit from either sides proposal. I did not get a stimulus check from the Bush plan nor will I receive one dime from the new package. As a matter of fact it is more than likely going to cost me in the long run. That being said I still do not want the people on the train to get hurt.

All I am reading from most of the posts is that people are afraid that others may benefit more than they do. What in the hell does that say about you as a person? If you are fortunate enough to not be on the train that's great but you still have to understand that when the wreck happens there is going to be collateral damage. The people that get hurt are going to require attention, who is going to pay for that?

Those of you that want to look at the past and say we came out of it before are not taking in to account that the population has grown, times have changed. Once upon a time people could fix their own cars with a screwdriver, try that today.

When you call your Congress person tell them to roll up their sleeves and push the truck off the tracks as a team. There will be time for them to play to the votes later.

Looks like everyone is ready to blame Obama for the mess we are in....our biggest problem in getting anything done is with a congress and senate that have done nothing but play politics between themselve for many years. The roads and bridges of this country are failing because our government has spent the money set aside for that on their own agenda's ....they did the same thing with social security...borrowed from it tilll there was not much left of a good thing. They, congress, is doing nothing because this mess does not effect them..our tax money pays them to do what they are doing...Wake up folks, our money is being given to the bigshots that created this mess and we get the blame for it. realize folks, the banks and linding institutions created the loan programs that were sold to the people that lost their homes to start with...as soon as they started losing money from that they needed to be bailed out...and with our money....but with no help to us...if you want to see changes,,start writing to your congressmen and senators...telll them what you expect...and what will happen come election time if you don't get it...maybe, just maybe a little bit will get done...but don't count on it.

I would suggest that both Republicans and Democrats, Liberals and Conservatives read the following article in the NYTimes:

"Japan’s Big-Works Stimulus Is Lesson"

When we talk about the trillions being spent and the massive government intervention in Business, Japan is a good model to see what the results are. We need strignet regulation and enforcement.

Also read an article in the business section of CNN to see a company that is trying to give the money that they were forced to take in the initial bail-out back and the problem they are having because of Administration policy.

Infrastructure spending is needed but so is good old common sense that tells us that government is not the most efficient way to get things done and ends up costing more. ( The Big Dig in Boston comes to mind)

For the record, I support regulating and enforcement which was lacking in the Bush years and I support help for Homeowners and small businesses ( something the stimulus package basically says tough luck) but we must take a step back and a deep breadth and choose carefully how we approach this issue. We don't have the luxury of mortgaging our children and grandchildren under a massive debt that will have to funded by foreign countries at loan shark rates. We need to choose wisely but it seems that this administration is all about saying the right words but not walking the talk just like the last one and the previous one and on and on.

yea thats right amy lets blame the republican for this mess before we can begain to heal from this mess we all created we will first have to stop pointing the finger at one side and take the blame where it lies on both sides so lets get the ball rolling and just get through this rough time we don't need to throw more money at it throwing more money at the problem woun't fix the problem......

Amy you are right of course about the $70 billion. Please explain the $850 billion the Democrats have added to this package?

Now, Amy, if you would only post about how Obama keeps trying to force everyone into passing this bill by Friday regardless of the removal of pork in it. He isn't listening to Americans. Yes, we need a stimulus, but heck NO we don't need more debt for nonsense stuff like the millions to Guam some congressman wants in a stimulus bill when we are trying to cut cost in Iraq for heavens sake.

Amy - just which party is know as the Tax and Spend party? It is not the Republicans. I believe you are ignoring Pelosi pushing through Bailout money for AIG when her husband is highly involved in that.

The veterans in Guam bit alone is just absurd. They quoted the number who served during WWII - now lets hear how many are even alive today and where the difference in the amount they want to allot for this is going.

Get real! This did not all happen in the past 8 years. A lot of things did not start in the past 8 years. I cannot believe how people forget the past. No wonder this country is in so much trouble. Before one can vote, they need not only to prove they have the right, but prove they have the mental ability!

"They don't mind deficits as long as they benefit. It's all about pork when they can make pigs of themselves!!!"

I'm sorry, but Republicans benefit from the deficits how? I understand that you're just out to bad mouth one political party (the one that is actually pushing for real solutions instead of costing business more that will cripple the economy and the job market no less), but maybe you should try to make some sense if you think you'll be able to convince people of your position.

Last,

if you don't think the republicans are a "spend" party, you must have been asleep for the past 8 years, 6 of which had the repubs in control of the government while the national debt doubled, while $1.5 trillion was spent nation building in Iraq, while the porked up a $1 billion embassy in Iraq, while they continue to support $30 billion a year on subsidies to farmers, whether they grow anything or not. The republicans do not have a track record of performance in the area of fiscal responsibility. It's all rhetoric, no substance. they're almost as bad as democrats.

I have an idea : lets shut down all non-essential government and abolish the IRS. Put tariffs on imported goods and use that to pay down the national debt. The economy will recover because

A) people will be able to keep what they earn

B) the tariffs will create a demand for domestic workers and domestic companies

Could someone please educate Obama that he is not...I repeat NOT...John F. Kennedy.

Yeah, he is tall and slender, but that is where the similarity ends. So stop trying to play the ivy league educated, affluent, white boy who can sell America horse manure and call it flowers. It's a new era and we're not buying!

"if you don't think the republicans are a "spend" party, you must have been asleep for the past 8 years"

If you think that Bush was a Republican, YOU must have been asleep for the pat eight years! He was the single biggest fiscal liberal ever seen in a US President. He gave us a world record corporate tax rate along with record business taxations, rates, and fees. Now what among that shows that he is a Republican? The Republicans are NOT the spend party. Bush was a die hard spend liberal, the largest we've ever had, and Obama wants to take the record by plagiarizing Bush's world record taxation policies and take even MORE to pay for this package. Taking so much from the job creators already cost so many people to lose their jobs, taking more will only make the problem worse. You're really talking about the last eight years as if we had a real Republican in office, and you say that others must have been asleep? Where the heck were you while Bush was proving himself to be as anti-Republican as you can get?

Okay Amy. Time to post up or shut up. I will show you FACTS of how The Clinton Administration started this mess. YOU show me where the Republicans started it. then we'll see who's blowing smoke. Make sure you have FACTS and not some others post or paste. By the way, Clinton is a Democrat, in case you don't know. I will challenge any person in here to post information showing the Republicans started this mess. If you know history, challenge me. I'm waiting. Not that it will make any difference, but at least you'll find out the TRUTH. Chalolenge me. FACTS ONLY and show the FACT source.

Im neither a Dem or a Rep........But mark my words....Obama, Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer, & Barney Frank........are really going to mess this country up more than anyone could !!!!!

Of course the neo-cons (read new age con artists) out there will claim that it is all about the billions added by the Dems. The reality is that we have fallen into the same trap the USSR did many years ago. We are bankrupting our country by foreign adventurism. Where were your whines when W decided to spend TRILLIONS on Iraq not to mention the toll in human suffering.

No this all goes back to Reagan, with his tax breaks for the rich and privitizing essential government programs. Yes we all are to blame--for letting it happen!

F the GOP!

Larry Wilson

Last,

if you don't think the republicans are a "spend" party, you must have been asleep for the past 8 years, 6 of which had the repubs in control of the government while the national debt doubled, while $1.5 trillion was spent nation building in Iraq, while the porked up a $1 billion embassy in Iraq

I AM PUTTING THIS IS BOLD TYPE SINCE THE SAME POSTERS KEEP REPEATING THE SAME THING ON MULTIPLE FORUMS (POSTS).

IRAQ WAS NOT BUSH'S WAR. THE LAW H.R. 4655, "REGIME CHANGE" OVERTHROW OF PRESIDENT HUSSEIN, 1998. THE FIRST US MILITARY ACTION "OPERATION DESERT FOX". H.R. 4655 WAS A "STANDING ORDER" TO THE US MILITARY AND WAS THE DECLARATION OF WAR OF THE THEN PRESIDENT AND CONGRESS. AND CONGRESS APPROPRIATING THE FUNDING AND CONTINUED FUNDING IRREGARDLESS OF PRESIDENT.

DforDemocracy,

Do you understand basic finances? It sure doesn't seem like it. Have you learned how to balance a checkbook yet?

Tax breaks mean MORE MONEY available to the economy. When the government increases taxes, that means that YOU have less money to spend... it is the same with businesses. INCREASED taxes mean LESS money available to the economy, even if the government is pumping it right back in. The overhead costs and contracts, acquisitions, and all the B.S. associated with government money effectively means that out of every dollar in taxes the government collects a significant portion of it simply VANISHES!

I don't like Democraps or Repubes, I think they BOTH enjoy spending too much of my money and your money. And they never spend it efficiently or responsibly. Yet they always make the spending sound so NECESSARY! Why haven't you guys figured this out yet?

Yeah, spending all that money on Iraq was a MISTAKE! But does the fact that it was spent by someone on the other side of the aisle from you make it okay for YOUR side to waste almost as much money? NO! And both Iraq and all these bailout bills are being RUSHED through. That is a sure sign of impending financial DISASTER!

These people are SCHMUCKS! They vote on all kinds of bills every day, and yet most of them are lawyers, not doctors or accountants or economists or energy workers... and they have the cajones to say we need to HURRY on this based on their ignorant opinions!? SCREW THEM ALL!

As far as I can tell, protesting didn't have any affect on the Iraq war, I doubt it will have any effect on the present administration. If the government collapses, there will be a reckoning. Thats what the Congress needs to really consider.

Are only hope is in a fiscal conservative, and there are very few of those left in government.

Sounds like the DEMS are rubbing off on the REPUBS? Until us AMERICANS get a spine and call our representatives and tell them NO MORE, they will keep it up. Have you called your Congressman or Senator lately??? I have made over 100 calls to voice my opinion, if you can't do that, go have another beer and send your money to Baracko to pour down the toilet.

1-202-224-xxxx is the number, go to http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm and click on the Phone List on the right to get your reps number. Afraid to call?? then just bend over and smile.

Chavez has the answer. Take from the wealthy,bloated scumbags and give to the needy. Let them eat cake!

You can also type into google, US house of representatives and US Senate. You will find links to your Senators and Representatives (you will have to click on your state). Send them an email letting them know your not happy with this! Do it now!

Ya know whats funny, the senators you talking about writing are as corrupt as they come, they're just like Obama...REAL GOOD TALKERS, but they don't do squat but cop a check. Change em out every five years and I'll take back my statement.

The Democrats have been bashing Bush consistantly for the last eight years and now Obama thinks he's going to waltz in with a charming smile and a wave of his magic finger and everyone is going to vote for what he's asking....I THINK NOT.

Back to my opening statement, Change out those dirty politicians, yes, the senators every 5 years and then Just maybe we'll be able to get a vote passed that's going to be good for our country.

On a closing note, stop paying off the Banks and failed companies. Give each American family 500K, mandate them to pay off their mortages and credit cards, Buy a brand new American vehicle, and put half of whats left into a long term bond and go spend happy with whats left. By doing this what happens

Banks are paid off

Loans are paid off

Jobs get restored

Ecomomy gets the kickstart it needs

WAKE UP AMERICA!!!

md-414241 advocates a socialist system, but what he doesn't realize is that parasites need a host. If there weren't Republicans, Democrats wouldn't have a dime. This whole eat-the-rich mentality is lacking. What do you want? A system where everyone is poor and trying to tax one another? If the crap hits the fan and the government tries to make a slave out of me, I'll just expatriate myself to a tax competitive country and leave everyone else holding the bag. Its curious how we despise the rich because we want to BE the rich. Its only when we discover we don't have what it takes that we sign on with socialist schemes to TAKE instead of EARN. The world isn't perfect, but there are more benefits with accepting that in a meritocratic system that some people DO get ahead, then there are trying to crush everyone down to the same level of non-productivity.

seen enough,

what programs would you cut?? and by how much would my taxes go down?

you could cut the entire food stamp program, and taxes would go down by less than 1%. problem is you'd end up with a bunch of children suffering malnutrition, like a 3rd world country.

BTW, I'm no democrat anymore. the recent pork-fest drove me out.

Call Palin. With her aim she ought to be able to trim this bill like she did that turkey! Go Palin!

OMG, it's so obvious she meant to say "five hundred thousand" and/or "half a million" and simply mixed the two statements. She misspoke, it happens.

Now, do you have a point?

another comment from am angry liberal. Hint the gop is out of favor, start focusing you anger on your party WHOOO you ask? well start with daschle dodd franke rangel pelosi etal. obama is a fine man but he is so inexperienced that he is being lead around by the labor unions, who gave to him in excess of $300,000,000 for his election and pelosi, who is in fact running the show. Obama has made so many promises that he cannot keep them straight CHANGE . this bill is soooo flawed that if a republican had put this out you angry liberals would have been all over it

Rich, you are wrong. If the Republicans put this bill out I would pass out from shock because it ACTUALLY contains funding for things that help the average citizen. Sure, it contains some stuff that seems at first glance fishy, but when you think about it most of the proposed spending serves a useful purpose.

If the R's put this out I would be in shock that it has more than taxcuts and DoD spending...

Drowninggrover:

Pelosi used the 500 million number on more than one occasion............

apparently she misspeaks a lot

The R's need to vote against it, so when it fails they will not be held accountable.

"Rich, you are wrong. If the Republicans put this bill out I would pass out from shock because it ACTUALLY contains funding for things that help the average citizen."

Really? I wasn't aware that funding for ANYTHING paid for by taking MORE from the job creators than the already world record taxes against them Bush created would help ANYONE. If Republicans had come up with this, I wouldn't be a Republican anymore (Bush was the largest fiscal liberal of any US President in history, until Obama of course who has plagiarized Bush's policies and just wants to inflate the price tags even higher. He was definitely not a conservative like so many falsely accused to further the impression of their own party).

Nothing can help the people when the funding comes from those creating the jobs, and it takes during times when they're already cutting jobs. What the funding is for is meaningless right now. No temporary or even long term project will help the economy if we're just going to take more from the job creators. The one and only solution is to take less so that the businesses create more jobs, bring more people to spend more which allows for continued expansion, and then government will see more money coming in to pay for these projects even as they take a lower percentage in the process. But the ignorance in this country would cause people to only see that less is being taken from the wealthy, and they'd cry that government is helping them line their pockets even as it's the only way to help the poor and middle class.

Not a single line in the entire package contains funding that helps the average citizen, strictly because of where the money comes from. Republicans have put forth several proposals that actually WOULD help the average citizen. Unfortunately, the Democrats hold a strong majority, and THEY are the party that only pretends to be helping the people, while Republicans are putting forth ideas that would help, but look bad to today's liberal crowd because the proposals don't "stick it to the man" (never mind that sticking it to them like this only hurts the rest of us even more).

If the Republicans had created this horrible bill, I have NO doubt that many people who speak as you do would be crying about how awful the bill is and how it doesn't actually realistically help ANYONE. And to make that claim, you would in fact be right. Coming from the Democrats though, it being damaging to every financial class is STILL a fact. There's not a single long term benefit here. Take from the rich, give to the poor, the poor spend it by giving it back to the rich, the rich just get their original money back (thereby NOT boosting the economy) but lose a product or service at the same time, jobs are cut and prices inflated to cover the 100% loss of a product paid for by the money taken from the business itself and simply returned to it at an inflated tax rate.

Taking from the businesses to give to people to spend on the businesses, and then claim that only giving them back their money is somehow magically a boost to the economy...this is the single dumbest thing to ever come out of a government body. The last eight years have already proven how destructive this is, the cheaper version of this package implemented already in recent years has already proven how much the package hurts every financial class. It does NOT contain funding that will help ANYONE.

...and George Bush misspoke about the WMD's in Iraq, he meant to say "there aren't any".

Quit being so gullible and allowing these people to make "mistakes". The lady has an agenda and it does not involve the American public.

demetrix, touche but it was still a mistake. I'm sure she doesn't actually believe we lost 500,000,000 per month...

Beckwolf says "Republicans have put forth several proposals that actually WOULD help the average citizen" No they have not. Taxcuts would be useful if this were a supplyside problem, but it's not. Economics 101...

"Beckwolf says "Republicans have put forth several proposals that actually WOULD help the average citizen" No they have not. Taxcuts would be useful if this were a supplyside problem, but it's not. Economics 101..."

This IS a supplyside problem. In fact, the supplyside is the ONLY problem. Economics 101. Why are jobs being lost? Because of the world record rates againt businesses and the job creators. Taking MORE than Bush's already world record rates creates, yep, a SUPPLYSIDE problem. Taxcuts are the ONLY solution. The very problem lies in that businesses are compensating for the heavy costs against them by inflating prices, outsourcing, cutting back jobs, or just declaring bankruptcy. By taking less, we would be lowering the supply problem by allowing businesses to bring in more work (jobs being the obvious supply issue, yes, jobs qualify under supplyside economics, as it's those jobs that set the level of spending and thus the level at which businesses can expand), which would increase spending and allow businesses to expand further. This boosts business profits and allows continued expansion. The lowered taxes paid under high profits would amount to more than the increased taxes paid under lowering profits, which would allow for funding of the projects the government wants to push through. You can't get more basic and obvious than this right here. It is the one and only solution, it's common sense to the point where a child should be able to easily explain why this makes sense. Take less, more is made, people have work again, government gets more money for their projects without it costing us our jobs, everyone is better off from the wealthiest on down to the poorest. Yes, the wealthy benefit too, I know that nowadays that's considered a bad thing when we're not sticking it to the man, but the more we screw them over, the worse off it is for everyone. We've had several years to see the proof of this.

On pelosi, I don't think she really KNOWS how many people have lost jobs, or for that matter how many people are in the United states.

Another video of the fumbling mouth, dumb ass, lack of knowledge, botox babe from CA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omxQuDtF1ZM&NR=1

I say we wait and see if it passes, then be judgemental. either it will stimulate the economy or it will fail and people will be taxed to make up the money in the package. Simple solution. Just wait. No one in here will make a difference if it works or fails. One thing for certain. It will go down in History either way. Then maybe you posters that post YOUR feelings can get a little bit of what you didn't get in school. A History lesson. Many of you post information from other bloggers and some hold water, but many more don't. If you want to post something besides hatred, post facts, If you want to know where you can get facts. Study. You'll find it. Please don't use the media as a fact source. I think we all know which side they are on. Unless you have quoted words, of an event that caused a situation, it doesn't mean a thing.

Pelosi's lips flap and makes up statistics intentionally. Ths went on a rant against Bush for creating the sub-prime mess when it was one of the Clinton Administration programs to give mortgages to the unqualified, following presure by ACORN. (see NYTimes 9-30-1999)

She is just a nasty old woman, . . .

Bush is no longer the President, he is gone and we need to look to the current situation. Bush inherited the inefective intelligence system that Clinton destroyed; the intelligence community gave bad? informatyion and CONGRESS VOTED TO GO TO WAR.

Another lip flapper blaming Bush, get the whole story. The REPS voted NO on TARP 1, the DEMS voted YES.

Ya know whats funny, the senators you talking about writing are as corrupt as they come, they're just like Obama...REAL GOOD TALKERS, but they don't do squat but cop a check. Change em out every five years and I'll take back my statement.

The Democrats have been bashing Bush consistantly for the last eight years and now Obama thinks he's going to waltz in with a charming smile and a wave of his magic finger and everyone is going to vote for what he's asking....I THINK NOT.

Back to my opening statement, Change out those dirty politicians, yes, the senators every 5 years and then Just maybe we'll be able to get a vote passed that's going to be good for our country.

On a closing note, stop paying off the Banks and failed companies. Give each American family 500K, mandate them to pay off their mortages and credit cards, Buy a brand new American vehicle, and put half of whats left into a long term bond and go spend happy with whats left. By doing this what happens

Banks are paid off

Loans are paid off

Jobs get restored

Ecomomy gets the kickstart it needs

WAKE UP AMERICA!!!

The time's come to start reading US history again. All conservatives and neo-cons would do well to read about FDR and the Bank Holiday that saved capitalism in this country. Its time to realize that we need to act in the national interest and not just trust that the market will save the day.

.....and that includes children!

"This IS a supplyside problem"

You have got to be kidding. With all the stuff that isn't selling how can the current situation be remotely considered a supply side problem.

"(jobs being the obvious supply issue, yes, jobs qualify under supplyside economics, as it's those jobs that set the level of spending and thus the level at which businesses can expand)"

That's just nonsense. Jobs are niether supply nor demand. Jobs encourage demand. While in the past there may have been issues of supply with the incredible amount of what is not selling this is a demand issue.

"The lowered taxes paid under high profits would amount to more than the increased taxes paid under lowering profits, which would allow for funding of the projects the government wants to push through. You can't get more basic and obvious than this right here. It is the one and only solution, it's common sense to the point where a child should be able to easily explain why this makes sense"

In some point in history this has been the case however business aren't holding back production because of profit. There are simply not enough buyers.

We've had several years to see the proof of this.

I know your not discussing the last 8 years. If anything it was just the opposite. Global and national business expanded and overheated the global economy. This lead to price spikes in everything. This led to the unraveling of many dormant weak points.

As a genreal principle the theory is sound it just does not apply to the current situtation.

The problem we face in the future is even without this current spending we are coming to a time of needing to raise taxes and cut spending which hasn't been done.

People can say that social programs or tax cuts helped in the past. What really occured nationally was cheap energy and a young work force. We are in for very different times ahead and going into with the debt of the prior generation.

jabbo, yep, here we go again.

And we thought we were getting some "Change". I guess Obama's definition of "Change" is spend more than Bush.

Who knew? I do appreciate, however, that Obama is indeed addressing CEO salary issues, so I'm still trying to keep an open mind.

The last stimulus package didn't work out too well so I don't see how this one will be any different. They just need to take however many billions or trillions of dollars and straight out give it to the taxpayers. I think we could do a better job saving the economy since we are the ones living through this disaster and know whats going on better than our own government.

A real stimulus package would include a trillion dollars less spending rather than more. My income falls, I cut back. My city cut its budget. The county and the state did too. The feds could do it, but they would have to stop giving money to the special interests that give them money. The wheels on the bus ...

At last, packer, common ground and 100% correct.

"The last stimulus package didn't work out too well"

What bill was that - Bush's tax rebates? I know I used mine to pay off some of my credit cards; how about you? If I had gotten my $600 as a tax cut, rather than a lump sum, that would have worked out to be like $12 a week. That's what, a couple extra beers? Not a lot of stimulus, at least, not very short term.

I don't know why congress feel they can save the economy by bailing out big companies. The people is what keep the economy going, and without us there's no economy. Other than bailing out some company congress should bail out the people. It sound bad but everyone is in debt, and that's what is keeping people from spending. I'm not going to spend with no income and large bills. They should handle credit card debt or something around that sort, because interest on credit cards now is redicolous. That's just my opinion.

Yep, the first bailout was a scam. Threw billions of dollars with nothing for show. At least the 2nd wasteful bailout, we will get something in return. Like real infrastructure that will last for decades.

I agree with "had-enough". Didn't everyone learn from the bailout last year. Corporate America can't be trusted, lobbyist are in it for themselves, and our politicians will tell us the earth is ending if it will get us to sign a bill before we have had time to read and revise it to its proper perspective.

This bill is even worse than the first in my opinion, because we needed the banks to survive, but who among us needs to go into debt to pay Hollywood millions for movies, teach people to avoid sexual diseases, support abortion overseas or buy lots of new furniture for the government and provide state workers with better cars than any of us drive?

MikeInPhilly-801539

The first bail-out we refer to is the one known as TARP. It is the $700 billion Wall Street con-job. The second is what they are trying to railroad us with now. While the tax rebates were "stimulus" they are not what we are referring to.

that is all all these polititions can say now or never I vote NEVER>

If all the fat was cooked out of this bill, there would onlt be $10.00 left and I think we get by without spending that.

"What bill was that - Bush's tax rebates? I know I used mine to pay off some of my credit cards; how about you?"

So you paid off some credit cards, while many of us lost our jobs so that businesses could afford to pay for those rebates. Take from businesses, and then expect that people just giving it back to the businesses and causing them to give up goods and services for free is a boost to the economy? Yeah, that didn't work. You're ignoring the long term consequences while only focusing on the short benefits that quickly die off.

Many people benefited from the rebates, but many, many more are seeing the LONG TERM results of that horrible package. If you had to choose between a few hundred dollars handed to you right now, or actually having a long term job that will continue to pay for years to come, which would it be? That's the choice that Bush's package, and now Obama's, creates. You paid off some bills, yay, so did many people who then lost their jobs and couldn't afford to pay the next bill, or the one after that, or the one after that.

I used mine to pay some bills to, and was smart enough to put some in savings, which is the only reason I haven't lost my apartment yet, because Bush's world record corporate taxes against businesses have made it so I can't find work right now and am VERY close to losing my apartment. I personally wish that I had just suffered through those bills but still had a paycheck than having an easier time paying off one bill but having no way to pay the rest anymore since the cutbacks his policies created (the ones Obama is trying to expand within this package) led to me losing my job and finding nothing yet to replace it with.

Obama's got the remainder of TARP funds ($350 billion) in his pocket. Try to do somethign constructive with that b4 you bankrupt the country completely.

TARP 1 was a product of that tax cheater Geithner, and we think TARP 2 will be any better???? Check the facts

As long as the govt keeps on printing money we're headed for disaster. I'm sick of all politicians, I do find it interesting to see how many people view this latest Obama sponsored "bailout". The money isn't there to give away people. You can't just keep printing money to throw into the system. If this keeps up the dollar will be worthless(many feel we are very close to that now) Cuts have to be made. Unfortunatley Obama isn't doing that. Some of the first legislation he signed was to allow our federal tax dollars to fund oversears abortions. Now, whether you are pro this our that. In these economic times- That's plain stupid and just goes to show that change isn't really coming.

Everyone's affected, unless they have enough money that it doesn't matter. Sure, my wife was laid off at the first of the year, and there's not a lot of hiring going on right now. We've cut back, but know she'll have a job soon enough.

The economy always has and alway will have ups and downs. The down times mean people lose jobs and the economy contracts, which is painful.

It's the panicky, high-pressure sales pitch that's the issue, along with the dozens of special interest items you list above.

SickNTired, I can only dream of buying ANY house, and my car is 11 years old, and my tv is 20 years old. Ramen noodles is pretty much what I live on, and a gallon of milk every now and then. Yet, I have a warm, dry place to sleep and a small but safe apartment. So, for me, it's tough, but I don't see the sky falling. However, I agree with you completely that much of the "stuff" in the stimulus bill is useless, and thanks for posting this list!

I do like the health care portion of the stimulus plan, so it's not all bad.

real packer fan, exactly, the economy will always have its ups and downs.

You are absolutely wrong, SickNTired! Most of the line items mean jobs for Americans. who do you think builts the cars that federal employees drive? They have now high maintenance and gas guzzling, poluting vehicles. All of the items mean immediate jobs for Americans. And you need to know that this is just a few percent of the stimulus bill.

politicos - how many American workers will benefit when the stimulus bill, stripped of any hint of nationalism that might prompt a "trade war," results in the feds driving a $600 million fleet of Priuses?

politicos--please explain how the hell the government creates jobs???? The government is BROKE!!!! Therefore they will take money from the private sector (meaning from you and me), borrow more, print more (this is simply too damn funny), or tax more!!! You live in a damn fanasy world chief!!

No, I am not wrong. However if you can explain how at least one of these proposals will create lasting jobs for American's I will stand corrected.

And believe me, the LAST thing any of you should want is government run health care.

Even if I accepted all of your figures, that is $40 billion out of $900 billion. If I take out items that will clearly provide stimulus and jobs, such as $6 billion to green government buildings, there is less than $20 billion. Shall we really delay and head into a depression over that, or have a little faith in the entire package??

Great list! All of these items do not belong in a "stimulus package". This is precisely why the Republicans do not trust the Democrats to do the right thing for our country! The President needs to get his red pencil out and excise this pork from this package!

SickNTired:

Your forgot the $192 million to compensate Filippino veterans of WWII!!!!!! Who buy the way are NOT American citizens and live in the Phillippines!

I really like the new "ice breakers". Why don't they just wait a few years because Al Gore says we aren't going to have that pesky ice around for too long anyway. And 1.2 billion for youth programs. Sure, put the youths to work so all of us adults can live off them.

Please scrap the whole idea and get government out of the business world. If they would just do their job of oversight (which they have failed at) we would be in better shape today.

"However if you can explain how at least one of these proposals will create lasting jobs for American's I will stand corrected"

It shouldn't create a *lasting* job. It's a stimulus, to get the economy started back on track. The lasting jobs will come from the restored economy. Hopefully, anyway. A restored economy will need the workers back.

Wow, you just stripped any job potential right out of the package. No jobs, no paid credit cards, no new trucks bought, no mortgages paid on time. Wow, brilliant plan. Just fling more and more money at businesses that managed (mismanaged) to put themselves in that position in the first place. Oh yeh, and more tax breaks for corporations....that'd be the 49% that actually do pay any now! Just brilliant!

After reading some of these posts, I realize there needs to be something in this bill for education. If there is, Great. Double it.

I don't see a single item of pork in that entire list. Sorry, but i don't

248 million for Homeland security office furniture?

How many offices?

Can they get by with folding chairs and tables until the economy recovers?

Geepers..............I'd love to have that contract!

It costs about half as much to furnish the place as it does to BUILD it?

Nope! No pork here!

Clint, well since the DHS doesn't have permanent offices yet (recommended by the 9/11 commision by never acted on) constructing their offices and furnishing them IS helpful for several reasons.

Obviously from a national security perspective helpign DHS is great, but from an economics perspective it puts the lumber industry, woodworking industry, delivery services, and construction businesses to work building and furnishing DHS offices. Sounds like a lot of work/jobs to me, and at a measly $248 million it only accounts for a fraction of the total spending.

Only an idiot would call this spending pork...

That all sounds great to me....That's why I voted for Obama, and so did most of the USA, so...go "duck- tape your widows" if you don't like it.

Only an idiot would try to defend something so ridiculous.

You make it sound like without this 248 million we're doomed.

I sure am glad we don't have you on the advisory committee.

The toothpick industry needs revamping!

What do you figure, about 500 million oughtta cover it? Putz!

"I don't see any pork in this bill"

I didn't really expect a blind sheep to see anything at all.

Thanks SickNTired. I can't get over the fact that they actually put something into that bill as stupid as paying volunteers. What numbskull pays volunteers. Talk about an oxymoron....paid volunteer???????

Homeland security doesn't need to build more office buildings. There are plenty of empty ones all over this nation that they can take over.

While these programs do create jobs, they are for the long term and should be voted on seperately, in about 6 months or so.

Technically, you could take any protion of this bill and say it will create "a job". Even the money to the phillipines...gotta hire someone to oversee and process the payments. That should not be the point of a "stimulus" bill. That crap can wait.

And btw, I'm a Democrat.

The United states has an all "volunteer" army. Meaning that they were not drafted.

"You make it sound like without this 248 million we're doomed." No, i harbor no such delusions. But it DOES create jobs, which is the overall goal of this bill, is it not?

"You are absolutely wrong, SickNTired! Most of the line items mean jobs for Americans."

They do? Well, they do bring temporary jobs. But who pays for those temporary jobs? That's right, the long term job creators, who must cut back jobs in order to pay for this package that provides temporary positions. So we're gaining temporary jobs at the expense of our long term jobs. Long term, that means that the line items COST us our jobs, not create more. Nothing on this package means jobs for Americans, unless you use fancy wordplay and ignore large portions of the facts. The line items create jobs at the expense of, yep, more jobs. Obama simply chooses to ignore the second half of that sentence, the part beginning with, "at the expense of," and only mention the first part.

Is the almost $5 billion for ACORN still in the bill? If so, apparently that's an "untouchable" item, because I've heard nothing about in for several days.

"Is the almost $5 billion for ACORN still in the bill? If so, apparently that's an "untouchable" item, because I've heard nothing about in for several days."

Since it was never *in* the bill, no. There was/is money for community groups that build things; that's not ACORN. Someone should mention that to Rush ...

Mike In Philly

Mike, you're dreaming..well disguised items in the bill are payback. Just because the actual "community groups" have not been names should give you a clue!

Otherwise, why in't an explanation as to which community groups are being discussed here?

Otherwise, why in't an explanation as to which community groups are being discussed here

Because they aren't specifically named in the bill, that's why. No firms are. Should we be discussing which construction companies get to take of the provision for new highways? Or which firm should supply the insulation to make the gov't and school building green? Of course not. No firms are ever named in a bill. As to why they're not being discussed here, who knows? It's a web forum. Everyone who posts on a web forum knows the One True, Correct and Obvious answer to any and every problem. Maybe they just haven't gotten to that stage yet. :-)

James - 60 million people voted against the president.

James..I agree that Bush was a joke, but what Obama is doing is expanding on his piss poor monetary policy! This is not rocket science!! Open your eyes!!

Why do you people keep blaming the GOP? It can pass without the GOP's consent. The House and Senate are Democrat controlled.

It seems to me that the Democrats and the Administration do not want to be on the hook for this if it fails. I do not understand this reasoning? Obviusly they have faith it will work, so pass it and take all the glory. Prove the GOP wrong.

James, both sides of the aisle watched this housing debacle come about. A rebate and Bailout/Stimulous 1 did not work. This Stimulous Actually Spending Bill will not work either. There is just too much PORK in it.

Why is Hollywood to get 246 Mil? There should be 246 millionaire actors/producers in Hollywood, let them contribute a mil each and they have their money! LOL

demtrix, of course the Dems want the Repubs to vote on it. This is where bi-partisan comes in; the blame will be shared on both sides!

James L:

Some Americans voted for change because they didn't know how to spell.

I did not vote for Obama!!!!!!!!!!!

DO NOT PASS THE STIMULUS BILL AS IS. It has the same old crap in it they all do. If Obama exercises his line item veto power then it might be palatable. Obama is talking out of both sides of his face.

James - The DEMOCRATS have controlled congress for the past few years. Give credit where credit is due.

Tryken, the Democrats didn't really have control of congress as they only had small majorities in the house and senate (the senate was a push actually, with 49/49 and 2 independents) which hardly gives the D's any control. Anything they tried to accomplish was filibustered or vetoed, so it was 2 years of stalemate and holding patterns...

Drowning. good jod!

paulette, thanks! keep fighting the good fight and lets get this bill (or something close/similar) passed! NO MORE TAXCUTS PLEASE!!!

I don't understand why people keep saying that Obama can use a line-item veto. Those were ruled unconstitutional because the President doesn't make law he can only pass or reject bills.

"Let's get on with it! The Republicans sat on their hands for eight years and their policies are partly the cause of the current bleak situation...The President is correct -- Americans voted for change and the GOP needs to face that and start working with the new President to pass the stimulus bill. "

The Republicans sat on their hands and let the fiscal liberal Bush pass a cheaper version of this package, which crippled the job market and inflated prices. You're right, let's get on with it. This time, the Republicans must do everything in their power to stop this more expensive version of the Bush years. They can't afford to just sit there this time allowing it to happen. After all, the people voted for change, right, which means that the Republicans cannot allow this more expensive version of Bush to pass his horrible package. They stood there once and did nothing, they stood there while the Democrats voted with Bush and just sat there not creating waves. They need to fight for change and fight against this package that will cripple the job market and our economy.

Drowning, long-term tax cuts have been the ONLY proven method for reversing a recession. Walk down to your local liberal university and ask any economist. The more money one receives in one's paycheck the more money that person will spend, hense, boosting the long-term economy. One problem is the democrats always say "tax-cuts for the rich" which they define as people who make around 150,000.00 per year. That is NOT rich. They want to hand out money to people who contribute little or no money to the country but take it in welfare, food stamps, free health care. I work damn hard for the money I make and see less and less of it. I don't drive a fancy car, live in huge house, just the opposite. My car is 8 years old and paid for many years over, and my house 60. The middle class is suffering and they want to take more of my money. The other problem is that the "silent majority", i.e. true conservatives have been "silent" for too long. It's time that sensible, hard-working American's take back their country, start voting again and put some people in the congress and senate who put our interests first, not their own agendas.

"Drowning, long-term tax cuts have been the ONLY proven method for reversing a recession."

that is absolutely, staggeringly false.

"Walk down to your local liberal university and ask any economist"

oh you mean like this one, who just happened to win the nobel prize last year? (goggle: "This week panel discusses bailout and economy") He thinks we need MORE spending.

"The more money one receives in one's paycheck the more money that person will spend, hense, boosting the long-term economy."

See, this is generally true. The problem is that in the ACTUAL ECONOMY WE ARE FACING NOW the problem really isn't that the tax rates are too high. They're the lowest they've been in decades (check out FDR's 91% tax rate on people making $1mil+ !!!). The problem is that the majority of our really good jobs, the stable jobs that employ generations of families, are in manufacturing, and we don't do that anymore in this country. People aren't getting paychecks, let alone worrying about how much taxes have been taken out!

Non-stop beatdowns with supplyside economics and ludicrous deficit spending on the part of both the government AND the citizenry (Credit card debt is ridiculous) have quite simply created an unsustainable economic position in which we are too dependent on consumption, credit, and service jobs.

The middle class has been squeezed to the point that the vast majority of people in this country can no longer afford their homes or consumer goods, and so you're seeing retail (like Pier 1 and Circuit City) and chain restaurants (like Bennigans, etc.) fold from lack of customers and lack of sales. No amount of tax cuts to these companies (so they can produce a TV more cheaply, or high more help in Indonesia) is going to bring large numbers of customers through the doors again to buy their products.

This is especially true when one considers that for all the money Bush gave out in tax cuts over the last 8 years, most of it was simply stashed away or used to buy multimillion dollar homes and condos in remote areas of the world by people who already had plenty of money BEFORE the tax cut. Little was reinvested into the economy in the form of jobs or increased productivity. Even so, many of the jobs that were created during the last decade were downgrades from the old industry ones that employed generations. Getting fired from the battery factory or Auto plant and picking up two waitressing jobs does not grow the economy (although it looks great in "job creation" statistics!). What additional proof do we have of this? Well the fact that 522,000 people were laid off THIS MONTH alone is pretty glaring...

So now we find ourselves in a position in which we're a consumption based economy and we're running out of consumers. When coupled with locked up credit caused by the housing crisis (which is indirectly caused by the squeezing of the middle class to the point that they can't make mortgage payments), we begin to see the real trouble. THE ONLY path out of the woods at this point is to start from scratch and DEVELOP new industries and new employment/education opportunities that will keep our people working for a few more generations. The BEST form of stimulating consumer demand is a salary, not a tax cut!

This is the whole purpose of the stimulus plan. It is designed to stimulate now through immediate tax cuts and some "shovel ready" spending, but it also appropriates LONGTERM spending and mandates. This is to develop new industries and employ American families for GENERATIONS, not 18 months or until the Dow hits 10k again...

"James - 60 million people voted against the president."

Which means that more people voted *for* the president. That's how it works - the one with the most votes wins. (except in 2000, when Bush lost the popular vote, but won the Electoral College votes)

See? No recrimination; just a fact.

DrowningGrover,

Obviously from a national security perspective helpign DHS is great, but from an economics perspective it puts the lumber industry, woodworking industry, delivery services, and construction businesses to work building and furnishing DHS offices. Sounds like a lot of work/jobs to me, and at a measly $248 million it only accounts for a fraction of the total spending.

Only an idiot would call this spending pork...

O.K., how long do you think it will take before the "Stimulus" happens from projects like this? Where is the urgency? Only those items that will have an IMMEDIATE effect on the economy are URGENT. Everything else is pork! Global Warming research? STD Prevention?? Whether or not you think those are necessary budget items, they are not URGENT and do not belong in this bill.

Obama said no earmarks, so they just put everything that would have been an earmark into the bill. Pork is pork, no matter how you present it. To quote the President, "You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig".

rarety, please see my post two above yours. THAT is why those things are important.

The real joke is James and Jekyl. You do not seem to recall who was pushing bills through congress (the Democrats), nor do you remember who dealt with the 9/11 tragedy. You have your so-called facts all wrong about when and where the problems we have started. I don't believe I will take any more time to address people who obviously don't keep up with what is going on in the world. Obama didn't receive a mandate, if there were not sooooo many people who voted that wouldn't get off their bums to vote before this last election, I am not convinced he would have become the president at all.

"I don't understand why people keep saying that Obama can use a line-item veto. Those were ruled unconstitutional because the President doesn't make law he can only pass or reject bills. "

It may be time to bring it back but if we started that is for the next presidential term.

Congress like to say they control the purse sting. Well what if borrowing for certain programs was delayed by the president. In normal circumstances that would be illegal. With the size of this monster one could say that it would be purdent not to try to fund it all as quickly as the funds are spent.

If this was directed at goverment spending in general rather than the bill, the president could hide behind trying to preserve the ability for congress to borrow these execessive amount.

Another way to say it is that congress only have control of the purse when they have one.

I don't think it will happen this way but I wish that it would.

Well said Susan.

The markets taking care of themselves got us into this mess.

clarke ong...ummm what????? Please stop being force-fed what politicians and the elite media feed you!!

The "Do Nothing Congress" got us into this mess, and when they did do something it was wrong for the time. This would be Democrats and Republican alike.

And don't forget to add we have lots of oversight committees in place. They chose to look the other way. I would suspect it was because they were making tons of money as well.

no clarke, the government rewarding the markets for risky loans got us in this mess. Then, the government decided a handful of companies were too big to fail and bailed them out and the bad practices continued. Free market works fine when it is left alone. These companies will fail and others will take their place. Driving a market on supply is foolish, which is what was and is occuring. We neglect our demand side and keep forking over money.

Just as an example, we have an abundance of corn right now, we also are getting ready to have a demand for switchgrass if the market plays itself out. Instead, the government will subsidize corn, a less efficient form of bio-fuel, and switchgrass, a cheaper and more efficient source, will be left out. Under a free market system, switchgrass would eventually win out as more farmers realize that they can make more money with that product. At some point, demond would be met and the rest of the farmers would need to grow another crop, such as wheat.

The point is, the market never gets a chance to correct itself. The government steps in and artificially manipulates it in a direction it does not want to go. If high fuel costs were to have continued, then there woudl have arose a demand for alternative fuel and a decrease in consumption. That is what started to occur, but then the market corrected itself and fuel prices dropped below $2.00, reducing the demand for more fuel efficient vehicles. Now we see the prices rising again.

Basic fact, free market has a brutal way of dealing with irregularities. It comes down on them like the hand of God. You get greedy, your run your business poorly, and you are out of business. You don't pay fairly, you are out of business. You risk too much, you are out of business. But since the government is stepping in, there is no consequence anymore, so we get a continuation on $400,000 vegas vacations for employees of a company that should be under chapter 11.

I just read this. The ideas are sound, but they are too brutal for people to accept. Since they are based on personal responsibility and reward for hard/smart work, it casts an ungly reflection most people do not want to see.

Much of that makes good sense, but I have a big issue with the part about immigration. Why the hell should we care about aiding poor citizens of foreign countries when our own citizens are suffering due to our current situation. Part of the problem is that our tax dollars are going to support illegal aliens living off our tax dollars already. Get them out of here... and let their jobs or if they had no jobs, their benefits go to legal citizens.

Thank you. Well thought out and illuminating -- at least for me.

Typical Libertarian tripe! The idea that somehow unions are bad is just nonsense. Unions are only bad for the corpratocracy in this world. Unions are what gave us a strong middle class from 1940-1980. By the way, I have never heard a neo-con or a Libertarian explain to me how you have a Democracy without a strong middle-class.

As to Social Security, the issue is simple--LIFT THE CAP!! I will never forget the time when I went over the cap limit and suddenly wasn't paying Social Security for almost 3 months. Seemed pretty odd to me since I could afford to pay it. The real problem with Social Security isn't the benefits but how we fund it and that is just insane.

In general the Libertarian view is that I should be at the mercy of big business. Based on their performance over the last 25 years give me government intervention any day. Libertarians will turn this country of We the People to every man/woman for themselves. That is not my country at least not the one I gave 20 years of my life to defend.

Unions were originally formed to protect workers rights. Unfortunately, the unions got too powerful and became tyrants.

I'm sorry, but some guy sweeping the floor at general motors should not be making $24 - $78 an hour while the next guy sweeping the floor at a different company is making minimum wage. Equal pay for equal work has got to be instituted at some point. Now, I'm sure that the union people on this blog have an issue with that. I know people that have doctorate degrees that don't make the kind of money that people in unions make.

I also seem to remember the Unions were a HUGE stumbling block for us automakers this year.

I agree with you S-621550.

You don't see a union a Wal-Mart.

Unions are by in no way perfect but the Walmart vs. auto industry is a good example. While Walmart does pay some a livable wage on average they do not. They are two diferent industries so it is difficult to make the comparison. What Walmart has done is drive not only large unionized chains out but also small stores that are more aligned with the norman rockwell type of free market libertarians go on about.

An operation without a union operates better but only if the management is operating well. In a non-union shop with poor management, people quit or valuable people are removed becuase of the atmosphere. In a union shop with poor management it is more difficult to remove for no reason and people tend to stay due to the benifits. It is true that in a union shop people get complacant. It really depend on what type of employees you need. If you need good talent you either need high wages, unions, and/or good management. the absence of any of these does not guarantee that the others will exist.

I've never been in a union but have managed organized labor. While I couldn't reward my star performers I was not precluded from removing the dolts. Any manager of labor who says they have no control over dolts is weak. On the flip side I've also seen and been the manager of non-union people. While you assume that the best would be rewarded which is what I tried to do in reality suck-ups do get rewarded more often. While someone who is good can advance they still need a bit of spin to counteract the spin of the dolts.

Unions reduce the ability to reward star players but eliminate rewarding star spinsters.

Non-unions allow the cream to rise with the scum.

Not the right thought process 1gonemad. Just vote them out. Violence is not the answer.

I think the FBI would be interested in your "thoughts" and those who agree with you.

That last sentence is the best advice I've heard all day.

What we NEED is for every line item of the so called stimulus bill to be put into it's own separate bill and voted on individually instead of them all being lumped together. This would eliminate the stuff that's been tucked into the bill that has nothing to do with stimulating the economy.

Identify those line items in the bill that either (1) will not save incumbent workers in the jobs they are currently in or create additional jobs. (2) won't be used to purchase a product that people are employed or would be employed to produce or won't be used to save or create jobs having to do with providing services. This is the "trickle around" theory. Stimulus Bill = Spending.

I would probably agree that you could eliminate those items.

I like the house on fire spin on this today.

In realty the issue is that the water tower in on fire and we are all worried about having drinking water. The water tower has already lost alot of water due to the fire and it is losing more on it's own.

I understand the concern with wasting what little we have left but to move now. It will definetly mean that water will be wasted. We will have to ration in the future.

In other words spend now before it's too late and be prepared to have less spent later and more collected.

Great point

We deserve more from our political leaders that reactionary solutions. I am tired on both sides of the isle. Democrats want to panic the country into this boondoggle of a bill, just like Republicans scared us into the war in Iraq.

We need to think things through and not rush any decisions that we will regret.

Tarp I has been a failure and that was a panic bill. Tarp I expensive boondoggle.

with the major difference being that the global economy IS ACTUALLY in crisis whereas Iraq was NOT an immediate threat. Also, spending money vs. sending soldiers to die (while spending comparable money) are two completely different decisions.

Hummm, another 656 thousand Americans filed for unemployment this past week. Maybe the sky already fell....

if Pres Obama keeps this up, we may be refering to him as 'moron' too before the sun has set.

I have not seen any poll numbers on his approval rating. Does anybody know his numbers?

martvol, 66% approval, 19% disapproval last I saw (Feb 3rd i think). This was the gallup poll too, so other polls might show some discrepancy.

There is also rolling readjustment which is what Eisenhower called the rescission in the 50s.

"Now, don't get me wrong, I really like President Obama, it's refreshing to refer to someone as Mr. President for a change instead of "moron*""

No, Obama passed the moron line quite some time ago. I can't call him "President" Obama without cringing, to think about what his horrible Bush plagiarized price inflated package will do to the job market, and as someone who is struggling to find work and close to losing his apartment, brings serious worries. Take more from the job creators to fix the economy. Hmmm, because they're not ALREADY cutting jobs to pay for Bush's world record corporate taxations, let's just take even more, brilliant! Wait, they ARE cutting jobs and inflating prices because of the world record rates against them. In that case, why do some people still think that taking more is a good thing?

Beckwolf--you freaking moron!! The Bush tax cuts gave trillions of dollars to the rich and mighty in this country and what did they do with it? Wait is that a job over there, nope, maybe under this table, nope, oh wait, that's right we sent all our jobs overseas!! As to business, they pay less than 8% of the Federal tax intake yet they eat up our infrastucture and We the People at an astonishing rate. You freaking moron! I am so fed up with idiots like you who think that paying taxes is the government taking something from someone. NO, taxes are the bill you owe to live and work in a society. Businesses were supposed to be allowed to conduct business for the betterment of society NOT to enrich a very few. It is people like you that endanger and jeopordize We the People on a daily basis. Wake up and smell the coffee while you still can.

Well, I saw that it was down to 62% today and falling.

DforDemocracy

Please don't blame Presdent Bush for thing that Willie Clinton did. Look it up.

BO does not read newsvine. Sent your emails to the white house. You'll get a nice standardized response back from one of his flunkies.

"The time for listening to people whose policies of the last eight years GOT US into this situation in the first place, are over."

There would be no one left to talk if you did that. Which may be a good thing.

They do televise the votes on CSPAN

miesque--exactly right! Except your years are a little off. This has been going on since 1980 (almost 30 years).

Reagan - Worst President Ever
Bush - Simply Incompetent

"Reagan - Worst President Ever"

Well, I dunno about THAT. I don't think he's the Perfect Person the Republicans sometimes make him out to be, but I can think of others who would make a good case for "worst".

miesque

You just don't seem to get it like many others here. President Bush was lucky to get anything through the basically Democratic Congress, and so far as Osama Bin Laden is concerned, Clinton was warned about him years ago and did nothing, else the twin towers might still be standing and the people killed still enjoying their lives.

Bush is gone...take responsibility for finding out WHY things got this bad instead of just blaming the last administration!

daybarb, it is obvious that you listen to Rush Limbaugh a little too much. You really do owe it to yourself to get the facts.

Fact: For the first six years that Bush was in office, the republicans had complete control of both houses of congress. The republican control was so strong that they didn't care what the democrats had to say. And what did Bush and the republicans do with all of that power? They spent money like a bunch of drunken sailors, caused hate and discontent throughout the world, and acted like the herd of arrogant jackasses that they are.

"You just don't seem to get it like many others here. President Bush was lucky to get anything through the basically Democratic Congress, and so far as Osama Bin Laden is concerned, Clinton was warned about him years ago and did nothing, else the twin towers might still be standing and the people killed still enjoying their lives.

Bush is gone...take responsibility for finding out WHY things got this bad instead of just blaming the last administration!"

How can you even begin to say that when most of your arguement is to blame the adminstrion before Bush.

Bush had a republican congress for the first six years and clinton for the last six years. Where is this "basically" is coming from or is it some strange use of the word I was previously aware of? Doesn't basically imply a majority?

Bin Laden. Clinton did a little more than notihing but didn't solve that issue and Bush sending an entire literal army didn't do it. So your expectations of Bush's ability must be 60,000 times less than Clinton.

"If you don't buy products from domestic owned companies there will be no jobs here and the decline will continue. End of story. WAKE UP AMERICA!!"

Even if you buy products from domestic owned companies, there will be no jobs here and the decline will continue if government takes MORE from the job creators than the already world record corporate taxes against them. Buying won't save us if the profits made from you purchasing domestic are simply taken away from the businesses. And THAT'S the end of story.

This is not about jobs. It is about payback to unions who vote Democrat.

superlogi...I know what is wrong with our economy. It really isn't rocket science. Maybe you should take some economic classes. Condescending? ( note the proper spelling). Um ..perhaps. But I remember when America had a steel industry, a textile industry, and an electronics industry, and things were pretty good here. Now we stand to lose our auto industry. So where will all of us, and our kids work in the future? You don't know do you? Well I'll give you a hint. We, and they, WON'T. There will not be enough jobs to support us. Now go back to sleep. We have a country to save and you are not helping with your tired old arguments.

name the items of pork please?

"name the items of pork please"

$87 billion for Medicare outlays

$20 billion for nutrition assistance programs

$2.8 billion to expand broadband services

$4 billion for rural development programs

$3 billion towards court restructuring programs

$3 billion towards scientific machinery upgrades for machinery already new

$1 billion for periodic censuses

$1 billion for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration

$1 billion for the Community Oriented Policing Services program

$2 billion simply titled "other activities"

$4 billion for Department of Defense renovations

$5.2 billion for nonprofit home reformations with right of tenure granted to group in standing (current tenured group in standing being Acorn which grants them automatic rights to 100% of the funding)

$43.9 billion for DOE

$4.5 billion for ACE (Army Corps of Engineers)

$500 million for Bureau of Reclamation

$8.7 billion for federal facility conservations

$1.1 billion for Dept. of Homeland Security

$8.4 billion for SRF's

$6.6 billion to National Park Service

$20.4 billion to Dept. of Health and Human Services

$4.6 billion for Dept. of Labor training

$20 billion for school renovations

$17.6 billion for Pell grants

$29.1 billion for seconday education

$6 billion for military construction

$1 billion to upgrade veteran cemetaries

$276 million for IT research

$224 million for construction requirements of the International Boundary and Water Commission, United States and Mexico

$30 billion for highway construction

$13.1 billion for "other transportation" programs administered by DOT

$11.2 billion for HUD

$5.2 billion for community development programs

$41.2 billion for ten highway programs

$10.4 billion for state or local transit programs

$39.5 billion a year to each state twice a year to help "balance their books"

$7.5 billion a year in incentive grants

$2.3 billion for TANF

Additional tax credits for "desired behavior"

Additional unemployment benefits at undetermined rates

Any other questions that you have?

I gotta disagree with you on public transit. I think public transit is necessary because that's how thousands of people get to work. Helping to keep them running well and on time will help people get to the jobs they're trying desparately to keep.

Again...

You see no job creation in your list???? Only with jobs can Americans pay their bills thus saving the banking, mortgage, auto, and credit card industries. Not to mention all the saved jobs for those in the banking, mortagage, auto, and credit card industries.

How many jobs do you think it would take to improve the highways? Or maintain bridges? Or Veteran cemetaries? How many jobs for construction workers to improve our falling down schools?

You see no jobs in your list?????????????????????

I did. We need a stimulus package but don't need to give money for dog parks, etc....

"$30 billion for highway construction"

"$41.2 billion for ten highway programs"

How is highway construction "pork", and not classic infrastructure spending, employing construction workers, equipment manufacturers and servicers, etc?

Mike in Philly...the dems are smart. They play to the public about infrastructure jobs. Who do you think will be doing most of that work? Unions! Where will the union dues go during the elections? To the democrats Smart huh?

Let's talk about the real pork, like $600k for a frisbie golf course; $400m for STD research & prevention; $6.2 billion for home weatherization, $100 million for children to learn green construction, $50 million for port modernization water and wastewater infrastructure needs in Guam, $50 million for the NEA, the National Endowment for the Arts. These will all create lots of jobs, huh?

They need to take their time and someone on the hill has to yank the pork (instead of the American tax payer!)

Aside from infrastructure, the whole thing is a big waste of our money.

They should hold a special vote and put it to the people to decide.

"Let's talk about the real pork, like $600k for a frisbie golf course; $400m for STD research & prevention; $6.2 billion for home weatherization, $100 million for children to learn green construction, $50 million for port modernization water and wastewater infrastructure needs in Guam, $50 million for the NEA, the National Endowment for the Arts. These will all create lots of jobs, huh?"

Some will create jobs, just not enough (someone has to make the items that homes are weatherized with). The rest is trash, as you point out. But you pointed out about $7B of an $819B pacakge. That's less than 1%. That's not "chock full". And yes, I know there are more stupid items in there, and should not have been. But there's very much more smart items. Such as the highway construction and repair, the building insulation projects, etc.

Don't get me wrong - there's stupid in this bill. But everyone here makes it sound like there's absolutely no value there. Which is quite obviously wrong. We seem to be focus on all the negatives, rather than identifying and expanding the good (at the expense of the stupid and negative). Let's take that $7B you object to, and fix some more stuff with it. I live in Philly; there's a railroad trestle bridge literally outside my office that is starting to crumble. How about we take a part of that, and fix that bridge, so the railroad can continue to deliver freight? (it's not a commuter railway)

My argument is that more government spending will only make the situation worse!! It has nothing to do with WORDING. His proposal is a damn disgrace to every U.S. taxpayer. It is also a disgrace to other countries, because they will be stuck having to pay to prop up our phony economy too. All China has to do is say no to buying our T-Bills, and our economy and U.S. dollar will collapse!!

Spot on Jekyll.

You can't change a direct quote to read the way it should have been said, and then expect everyone to simply accept that your revised version is the truth.

"This recession might linger for years. Our economy will lose 5 million more jobs. Unemployment will approach double digits. Our nation will sink deeper into a crisis that, at some point, we may not be able to reverse," Obama wrote in the newspaper piece.

That's what President Obama said, like it or not.

"Good grief, don´t you all realize that this was badly worded? Of course it should mean, if we don´t act now we are on an IRREVERSIBLE WAY to a recession"

Well, the way you've worded it is no better, that statement being just as bogus. If we act now with this package, THEN we are on an irreversible way to a recession. Doing nothing would be a safer alternative even. Taking less from the job creators for a change would be an actual, realistic approach. But to take more, now doing THAT now would be the single worst path we could possibly take, and I'd much prefer that we did nothing than this crippling package that will kill the job market and the economy.

Could you be more specific on the"wish list" - specific provisions of the bill?

I agree. Everytime he, Pelosi, Reid and Frank speak it is always a disaster. Remember what happened with the last (rushed) stimulus/bailout......haste makes waste.......

I agree...but it is an illusion and a fallacy to think that government intervention will make things all better.

Katie - in a recession, people lose their jobs. That's difficult if you're one of the unlucky ones, but it goes with the territory. A benevolent government helps people ride out the recession until times get better.

The government only can spend money it removes from the private sector or borrows. Neither of those is going to help.

Katie,

Do you honestly believe that the government is the answers to all your woes? Do what did when going got tough..I worked 2 and 3 jobs at times during my life..I seen plenty of down times in my life...

If you wait for the government to buy your bread, i think you will be waiting along time...I assume you must have a few bucks,you seem to have money for internet...I can remember in tough times,no cable,no phone,vacations..I survived and so will everyone else..

"it is an illusion and a fallacy to think that government intervention will make things all better."

You're correct that it won't make *all* things better, but it can help. It can also hurt. The big trick is getting it right ... always has been, always will be.

Tough times dont last...... Tough people do

I guess the theory there is, stop the collapse of housing prices by installing a 10%, government paid "backstop" for homes.  Housing prices stabilize or rise, people can refinance, pigs sprout wings and we all live happily ever after.  Wait, that sounds like a fairy tale...

My biggest issue is - when I look at this package - I see nothing for me?  Now, I'm not being greedy here, but really, nothing relates to me.  I'm joe american whose house is underwater, I have (luckily) kept my job and my house.  I'm not buying a new 10% off house any time soon, I have no cash (401k beat down, portfolio ugh).  I pay my mortgage - so no assistance.  I have to miss payments before my lender will even discuss a re-fi.  A re-fi would really help since my balance has dropped a lot - I have made the mistake of paying extra early to my mortgage because I'd like to own my home in 15 years.

My situation is similar to many in my community.

I know, woe is me - but really?  Bailing out banks/systems/people who chose to do risky behavior irks me - I guess I should stop paying on my house now so I can get a piece of the pie!  Maybe I'll get one of those Prius if I don't pay my taxes!

We did not do nothing in 1930!!! Hoover did plenty to make the situation worse and FDR increased government spending which extended the depression!!

Google FDR and the Great Depression. What he did was worse.

I agree, but unfortunately most people are brainwashed into thinking that FDR's New Deal saved us. Hell...we can't even afford his New Deal today, and yet people now want a New New Deal. Unbelievable!!

"Google FDR and the Great Depression. What he did was worse"

Well, sorta. The things he did *did* help. It helped in the first years to put (some) people back to work, stabilize the banking system, etc. It was better than it was before he took office. But no, what he did wasn't perfect. Some of it was wrong; some of it wasn't enough in the right directions; that's what extended things in the later 1930s. The idea for us is to re-do the parts he did right, and *not* to do the things he did wrong.

Simply not true Philly.

Chris - It's attitudes like yours in this country that will be its down fall. USA will always be the Worlds breadwinner, because there are enough of us that still work are assses off to get it done. Weak wristed Obamafiles will all go down with him if they get what they what with this pork bill. So be it they won't be around in three and a half years anyway. Unfortunitly it will take twenty years to undue the damage cause by ignorance.

The president who is to blame for this whole fiasco is Woodrow Wilson. He reinstituted the Nation Bank(Federal Reserve) after Andrew Jackson got us out of it. Our founding fathers knew the danger of giving over the money to a private bank and Ol' Wilson put us right in that danger. There is no real value in the Dollar you hold today just a belief that it's worth something so get ready for the fallout.

It's called survival of the fittest people. If a person (or a company) is not strong enough to stand on it's own, it will fail. By bailing out these companies and in some cases, individuals, the government has made everyone weaker in the end. Now instead of the strong rising and taking the place of the weak, the weak still rule and drag us all down with them.

When our nation was formed, the job of the government was to oversee and advise. It was never supposed to have the power it has today. There were no illegal government agencies like the CIA and the IRS during the formation of the government. Our founders had no idea that our government would evolve into the disaster it has now become. The original ideals were correct and all that has passed since then has only served to ruin what was once a wonderful plan for a great country.

I don't think Woodrow is available for comment.

Unfortunalely, Obama's inexperience is showing through. His frantic attempt at fear mongering over the economy is not supported by any reasonable rationale. It is being seen for what it is, a transparent attempt to push through an agenda of liberal spending that no one believes will stimulate the economy.

"Simply not true Philly"

Is true, actually. When FDR became President, unemployment was 25%. That was halved by 1937 (I think it was), which indicates that he *did* help. Then the New Deal sorta changed. There was all that stuff about increasing the size of the Supreme Court, some of the programs were declared unconstitutional, the trade protectionism didn't help, not enough expansion of the money supply, cutting spending and programs, all helped trigger another recession, which lasted right into WWII.

So The New Deal certainly helped, for a while. People got jobs, with the extra benefit of some long term effects (Hoover Dam, TVA, etc), SEC, etc. No, he didn't cure the Great Depression; never said he did. But neither was he the completely ineffectual pinhead that some portray him to be. He made mistakes, sure - some big whoppers. But he also did good.

Wrong, Mike in Philly...I lived in those times and the bailout (WPA, CCC camp) made thigs worse. The thing that turned it around was WWII. I'll borrow your words here "he the completely ineffectual pinhead that some portray him to be", very much like Clinton. A womanizing socialist, who talked big about being a Democrat, but the SS act along with all his other programs didn't turn out to be such a good thing after all.

Daybarb - $700BILLION dollar surplus + $11.9 TRILLION DOLLARS LATER....

AND, You STILL think that the Boooosh and Co., Policies were EFFECTIVE???

The American people Elected Obama, because they were TIRED of the FAILED REPUBLICAN'T POLICIES!!!!

GIVING TAX BREAKS TO THE RICH, DO NOT WORK, IT'S BEEN PROVEN OVER THE LAST 8 YEARS...

Take a seat and let us show you how it's done!

McLame lost the Election - REMEMBER.........

Hey glw-458921 moron! Reagans tax cuts double revenue to the treasury, Bushs tax cuts increase revenues to the treasury by 750 billion. Revenues to the treasury increases with taxes cuts because tax cuts spurs economic growth. Your just an idiot.... this economic situation began with freddie/fanny. Democrat progams. Also ran by Democrats. Also democrats blocked reforms and higher regulations for freddie/fanny because... well, you know the same 'ol line "it's for the poor." Your socialist policies have failed, not only here but around the world you big walking sack of stupid. If you think higher taxes are the way to go, then all you liberals can send me your money and write to me how your life is now improved. Idiots....

GLW- If you want answers to your questions read up on the Great Depression and you will find the similarities and parallels quite amazing. You will read what they say caused the crash, what Government did trying to help during the crash, what prolonged the crash and what ended it. Many if not all your thoughts are addressed, but maybe not all to your liking. You will find that President Obama is employing the "same failed policies of the past to try and move us forward". Funny how his very own catch phrase can be used against him when you read about the great depression. The big difference between back then and now is that while FDR spoke to the people using hard direct talk, he understood he also had to instill confidence and hope for the future , where as Pres Obama instills feelings of hopelessness, fear and enivitatble catastrophe if we don't swallow his plan hook line and sinker. The difference between FDR and Obama is quite striking, FDR governed by being hopeful, Obama governs through fear mongering.

pete - correct. I listed to FDR on the radio. Seems like Obama wants things to appear worst than they are so he can be a hero if the problem is fixed. Most of the simulus is vote-buying as usual by the Dems.

"I lived in those times and the bailout (WPA, CCC camp) made thigs worse"

Most historians would disagree with you there. Some things made it worse, granted; some things helped (which has been my only point).

"The thing that turned it around was WWII"

And agree with you there. The war was what finally got us out of the Depression.

"I'll borrow your words here "he the completely ineffectual pinhead that some portray him to be"

Once again, the prevailing wisdom disputes you. Oh, not about the womanizing; just the "completely ineffectual pinhead" part. He wasn't successful at getting us out of the Depression, as I said earlier, but he was not ineffectual.

" I listed to FDR on the radio."

Many of FDR's Fireside Chats are available for your listening pleasure free at

<http://www.archive.org/details/fdrfiresidechat>

"Bushs tax cuts increase revenues to the treasury by 750 billion. Revenues to the treasury increases with taxes cuts because tax cuts spurs economic growth. Your just an idiot."

Can you please explain to us "idiots" how a business that spends $2 to get $1 in extra revenue works in the longs run? You would have to get to a point where your bringing in more than your spending. Is this a Madoff fund plan or internet stock wisdom?

So the Kennedy and Reagan tax cuts failed? Clue in. They work every time we trust people to do the right thing with their own money.

Dolts? I'd have to consider you the "dolt." Tax breaks do work when applied properly and history backs that up. What doesn't work is spending more federal dollars that the government doesn't possess. Why do you think many corporations have left US shores? The corporate tax rate is too high in this country is one reason and the other is labor costs. If the corporate tax rate was lower like Ireland for instance then the workers would be provided jobs by companies remaining and relocating here. Unions are another big scam. Look at what unions did to the auto industry. Obama and his crew has it all wrong and will go down in flames. I just hope the country doesn't go with them.

JFNewJersey says "So the Kennedy and Reagan tax cuts failed? Clue in. They work every time we trust people to do the right thing with their own money."

You'd be right if we still had marginal tax rates anywhere even close to what we had in Kennedy's and Reagan's time. Oh, and if the recession was being caused by restrictions to the supply side. And if we had the promise of useful monetary policy (which we don't, since the fed rate is already essentially zero).

Basically, the economy we face today is NOTHING like the economy Kennedy or Reagan faced, and as such one cannot expect the same things that worked then to work now. Do you homework past "spending bad, tax cuts good" please...

Also, xlor, low corporate tax rates are not the sole reason for Ireland's booming industry. A large contributor to the boom of Irelands economy over the last few years has simply been the fact that they joined the EU. I partially agree that our corporate tax rates could be lower, but now is not the time to lower them. We are not facing a supply problem, we are facing a demand problem and as such corporate tax adjustments will have essentially no effect on the economy...