Great! How much $$ are you going to chip in?

The main problem is not lack of COVERAGE... but COST.

FIRST fix the COST problem and you will have solved the COVERAGE problem too.

Addressing the coverage BEFORE the cost will ALMOST guarantee the cost will NOT be reduced while simultaneously spending trillions we simply do not have.

It is clear the only NEW RIGHTS we have are to watch congress plunder America into doom.

All of these fools want to stick their government hands into something so they can say they "fixed it". Problem is name more than 1 program the government has gotten right in the past 20 years. Anyone?

btco

What parts will change and what reform have you seen to make you think it is a good first step with this bill. Please tell me where I can read this plan in its entirety please.

loan- Good start is stopping cherry picking and having a public option.

Things I'll bet will change is the tax on the wealthy, review board idea. But ...... who knows.

Good call Mr. Rogers! Fix the cost problem and the coverage problem will fix itself.

I want to know how this group of individuals in Congress that are not health care professionals (or even have ever had real jobs) can really expect that they can legislate a solution by pillaging the businesses and the wealthy.

"Atlas Shrugged" has been promoted from fiction to a historical account of the 21st century and it scares the hell out of me.

It's amazing, in a matter of 2 weeks we've gone from $1 trillion over 10 years to $1.5 trillion over 10 years. At that rate after 10 years we'll be at $260 trillion!!! Mr. Rogers is correct, the problem is cost, not coverage, 83% of the country is covered and that's based on the generous estimate of uninsured proposed by B.O. Say he's off by as much as he is so far on the unemployment rate and we're closer to 90% coverage and that 10% uninsured includes young people in their 20's who chose not to pay for coverage and probably includes illegals as well.

Tax and Spend....

Please see California for how that works out....

Sad thing is the government has fooled everyone over the past 15 years that they are the only one who can fix ALL major problems.

What makes that even funnier is that no one can name 1-2 problems they fixed that didn't create a bigger mess afterwards....

Okay - Cost is a problem we all agree........

What are solutions?

My ideas are partial - not complete - tort reform....... I still want to be able to sue in some cases, not all - just some. Could this end defensive medicine?

Allow for use of best practices somehow. Find out why it is cheaper for excellent care in some parts fo the country and replicate those practices elsewhere.

Have electronic records, one claims and payment system used by all.

Allow a public plan to compete with private carriers.

What are solutions?

Make health insurance more like REAL insurance. Do you use your auto insurance to change your tires or oil?

Health insurance should be for catastrophic health issues ONLY.

1) The reason it costs $120 to see a doctor is because the insurance companies started paying it because they paid on a factor of MEDICARE.

There is no reason it should cost more than $20-$30 to see a doctor or nurse practitioner for a cold or infection. If insurance companies stopped paying this... doctors couldn't charge so much. In Fact there ARE clinics from PRIVATE companies that charge this little to see patients with nurse practitioners under MD supervision.

If it only cost $20-$30 to see to get seen, people would stop the ER abuse for little petty things. This would ALL AROUND reduce costs.

2)The FDA should be ONLY ABOUT SAFETY, not EFFECTIVENESS. Leave the EFFECTIVENESS to doctor groups and medical studies.... NOT THE GOVERNMENT. This will reduce the cost of developing drugs radically (or at least take away the pharma corp excuses).

first place to start, lowering corporate tax. right now, our company pays about 50% of yearly profits to taxes. is that a joke? that money could go to help pay more of employees health care coverage. and to pay them more. but when you have payroll tax, corporate tax, and all the other b.s. taxes, by the end of the month, there is no more money left! start there first.

golf - Really now, lowering taxes and spending more is what Bush did. Did that work well for us?

This is very bad news. I have zero confidence in our elected leaders to formulate a plan that: 1. Provides health care to everyone. 2. Does so at reasonable cost. 3. Won't result in rationing or reduction of services. 4. Interfere with advances in medical science due to loss of profit incentives. I'll say it right now, by 2012 we'll be regretting this legislation big time.

btco,

Tort reform is a great start, we need some sort of ceiling and perhaps a list of items that have legitimate basis for claims. You can't have best practices to even costs everywhere because costs aren't the same everywhere for anything but you could tie it to cost of living perhaps. A public plan is an absolute "NO" though because it wouldn't be a plan, it would be another social program, similar to Medicare/Medicaid, funded by tax revenue and offering artificially lowered premiums (artificially lowered by the tax revenue) and wouldn't compete with private insurance but create a monopolistic situation and completely undercut the private insurance industry leaving us with nothing but the public option.

I also agree with Mr. Rogers about the "regular maintenance" being taken out of plans as well. It shouldn't cost more than $20 to get a physical or check-up and people need to stop going to the ER for every little thing. But in the end you get what you pay for and I personally have no problem paying more than the rest of the world because of all the R&D we do in this country in the way of drugs, procedures, medical devices, etc. I would never want companies to stop putting money into medical advances so I can save a few $'s.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/topstories/2007-08-11-398857697_x.htm

Couldn't even run a whorehouse.

This is interesting

http://www.dartmouthatlas.org/atlases/Spending_Brief_022709.pdf

and so it begins. Prepare for more massive job losses because your employers won't be able to afford you. Prepare for all income levels to be taxed more. If you are stupid enough to think only the rich are getting taxes raised, you are one of the mindless, mooch drones cheering the dic tator.

Yesterday, I thought these Democrats had actually awoken and realized the mess they might create. I guess their reality was different this morning. The details of this plan is beyond mind numbing, it's crazy. We will be cleaning up these dummies mess for years, if the country even can.

Please explain how this is a great first step? Is Congress going to live under this plan? How high are taxes going to be raised to pay for this plan?

This plan is a travesty and should be tabled. Too many deals, too much pork, do you really want the Government telling your Doctor which drugs to prescribe?

Call you congress person and tell them to shove this one into a deep dark hole.

As an employer and investor that has to pay for this "reform", this plan is a real job killer. I have already complied a list on the train this morning of whom is going to be fired at our two firms, if the house bill is passed. It is basically going to be the lower paid employees.

Our large volume of work will be further outsourced to firms that have labor that will not be insured under the current plan as it is presented, (illegal aliens.) My sub-contractors know how to deal with this, better than me.

This is a job killer. We are also going to consider how to distribute the employees across our two firms to get under the $400,000 threshold. Perhaps we will create additional corporate entities. Perhaps we will withhold money from employees to force them to pay for medical insurance, that their spouse is already receiving at another firm. (We pay higher wages if you decline insurance.)

Concerning my adult children who work for the two firms, perhaps I will increase their pay and lower mine to avoid the surtax. (This helps with the future estate tax, when I pass on to a less taxed world.)

It is so productive to have the Boss thinking non-business bad thoughts instead of business and keeping people employed.

Capital Strike!

Agreed with Mr. Rogers and diamondduq- America home of the brave and in the poor house now. This is a huge mistake.

It's amazing, in a matter of 2 weeks we've gone from $1 trillion over 10 years to $1.5 trillion over 10 years. At that rate after 10 years we'll be at $260 trillion!!!

btco:

I usually try not to take sides, but simply make a note of the obvious.

I believe, like many Americans, that we should provide basic health care for everyone. Health Care is not an entitlement, but simply a good thing to do. Having said that, every American (and many others) have coverage, by walking into any emergency room, anywhere.

Here is where I cannot be neutral. As a business owner, I am on the edge with taxes eating the last little bit of profit that I get. This Health Care bill, as presented, will be the final push over the edge into our ceasing to operate. We need to see a copy of the bill. One solution, which happened in Europe when universal health care was required and employers carried the cost, is to let all the employees go. Hire contract and temporary workers. We give our employees stock options, any vacation as they need it, any sick time as they need, etc. It all ends with this bill.

There is not much elso I can say. This is a big wall to get over just to stay in business!

My question to the bloggers here - are the same people that want this Bill and ANY cost that comes with it, going to keep quiet when I have to send work outside the USA just to stay in business ???

What should be the loudest refrain, oft repeated, is NAME ONE GOVT PROGRAM THAT HAS EVEN COME CLOSE TO ACHIEVING ITS GOAL! NAME ONE THAT HAS CORRECTLY PROJECTED PRICE! Wake up libs, get out of the fog your in, and THINK!

Sold out again!!!

It will be interesting to see how this survives the 10th amendment should it get challenged....

HOW ABOUT TRYING TO GET THE ECONOMY WORKING FIRST!!! WHAT'S THE RUSH??? I am not a fan of Obama's health plan anyaway, but my God...you can't keep increasing taxes on people, and expecially businesses, during a severe recession. It only makes things worse. These people have no concept of history, or how things work.

The biggest problem with this bill is the 1.5 trillion dollar figure. If you have a government option it will undercut the private industry and a lot more people will sign up because it's cheaper. The 1.5 trillion doesn't take that into effect, it will cost a lot more than that.

btco - Actually lowering taxes did work for us. It has worked everytime it's happened, starting in the 60's when Kennedy did it, in the 80's when Reagan did it and again after 911 when Bush did it. When the tax decrease took effect in Bush's first term, unemployment dropped to just over 5%.

It was the democrats screwing up the mortage industry with Barney Frank and Chris Dodd heading up fannie mae and freddie mac, that caused the economic mess we are in now. When mortgages imploded because of the failure of FM & FM, it created a domino effect across the country. Construction came to a screaming halt and all the surrounding industries that supply materials, appliances, equipment, etc. have laid off thousands of workers. The government involvement with the banks, the auto industry and the unions have served to add huge problems with the economy as well.

Obamacare is really going to hurt this country. Along with Cap and Tax, and the Immigration Reform Act looming on the horizon, this country is in for a world of major hurt. Expect unemployment to be at depression levels of 25% or greater. If they actually do pass all 3 pieces of legislation, it will be checkmate. Our economy will not recover from it. You will see businesses closing everywhere because the taxation will not allow them to make a profit. Obama will have effectively done what he set out to do... destroy capitalism as he was taught by Saul Aliniski.

A government controlled health care system designed to compete with private insurance will only be cheaper initially by not having to make a profit. However we all know how efficient any government program is. Inefficiency expense will soon equal an insurance company's profit margin. Unless they control costs, i.e doctor's fees, hospital charges etc., the expense will simply continue to rise. If doctors are willing to accept $X for treating a medicare/medicaid patient, they should accept the same payment from insurance companies instead of expecting private health insurance to make up their paychecks.

I am completely disgusted. I run a small business which I'm trying to get going and I was having some luck, but now this. Forcing me to provide healthcare will make the decision for me whether I can make this business work or not. I was laid off from one of the largest companies in the world late last year, and was having good luck getting my business going. But, now the government will step in and force me to close it up before I can even really get it started.

And of course, those who will be forced to pay for this program won't even get a say in whether we think it's good or not!! And calls/emails to my reps generally go unheeded...or I get a terse answer about how "important" the particular issue is. I really am disgusted. We live in a democracy? I don't think so. The administration and all those in Washington do whatever they want. They long ago stopped representing "we the people." We may get the ability to vote, but the powers that be in Washington just go off and do whatever they want once they are voted into office.

what happens when we're all living in the streets..due to being, FORCED INSURANCE POOR ??..

Why sould there be any pork in any bill that comes out in any bill for the next year and 1/2? The democrats have that super majority and don't need to make any more deals to push their agendas through. That should help a bit!!!

btco, have you really checked out the British Health Care System? Really? I was there for 12 years. It doesn't work all that well. My ex-wife who worked there had to pay a portion of her wages as an aide to pay for that care even though she wasn't eligible to use that system. They pay for it across the board. No free ride like this proposal to buy votes, I mean provide care for everyone.

Why do Canadians come down here for their operations? Because their health care system won't give them one in a timely manner. Sure their drugs are less expensive, but when it comes down to it, is the system really there when it is needed?

Tort reform would be great. I agree with you there. $300 million for a life? I would grieve alright, but that amount of money won't bring the person make and if they were invalided for life, I do believe that the interest on just 1/10 of that would more than pay for their care forever! Look how many doctors fled West Virginia because they couldn't pay the premiums on insurance anymore in that state.

I also agree that any federally run program is over budget, over staffed and costs way too much, is ineffecient and can be done much better in the private sector. But that doesn't provide jobs that were promised does it? Then later on, there are pensions to pay by taxes. How about that as a way to keep our taxes high. Government just looks for ways to keep growing! Let's shrink it back to a more manageble size and have them do what they are supposed to do and no more!

Wayne #1.25,

"These people have no concept of history, or how things work."

Or perhaps they do, but have a different goal in mind, like the destruction of the US, from within. Isn't that what former Communist leaders have stated ?

This is the first step to have Obamanation to tell you when you can get an operation, or any medical attention. Communist health care is another genocide operation. Ask any CANADIAN who is honest. If you do not have political pull you will die before your turn will come for health care. You will be forced to pay, whether you are treated or not. If you do not get their health insurance you will be fined.

Point is there are A TON of better ideas than just lumping everyone into a single payer system.

For instance, the German health care system is superior to BOTH Canada and most of the UK in that it uses over 200 PRIVATE NON PROFIT insurance companies who compete ONLY on the bases of SERVICE since the coverage is fixed by the government every couple of years. Also, with their tort reform, the average malpractice policy for a doctor in Germany is 90% less than here.

So why rush... let's explore the options in detail and do as AMERICANS due. INNOVATE to an EVEN BETTER system.

Just take a look at the US Postal System.

btco, nice, I agree with you. I am perplexed with comments like san pedro's. I'd like to know when this System is in place, how much of his own health care is he willing to pay? Or if this plan offers him a better option will he say, "No!" I will pay my own healthcare and San Pedro since you are so concerned with the deficit, how about finding out your share and paying it. I keep hearing all this talk about people getting "free" healthcare. If your people before you paid taxes, lived through all the various social, racial, militaristic upheaval that made America America, it's not free, it's your RIGHT. Tell families who have lost sons and daugthers in various wars, that because they can't afford healthcare they are getting it "free". Am I saying America owes it's citizens something, yes I am!

Keith - America owes us NOTHING! It's the mentality of entitlement that the liberal mindset evolves around.

If you think America owes you something, who's going to pay for it? America isn't a business that produces anything.

Get a job, provide for your family, be responsible and care for your own. Pay your taxes (lots of them with Obama) live your life and make the best of it.

I am part of America and I owe you NOTHING! Pay your own way!

Keith, Thank you. And to all the folks who feel we do not need any reform - WRONG - we are screwed.

Brianb - Harsh ignorant words make you appear dumber than you may actually be......

Well there goes low prices at Wal-Mart. They will be forced to provide health insurance for all their employees, so expect a big price increase in goods, not just Wal-Mart but ALL retail stores that will be forced to provide health insurance.

The 1600 page plan concocted by the Dems, have provisions that if an individual has been treated for a particular illness but hasn't been cured, then that's it for the individual. For example, if one got cancer and treatments given didn't cure the cancer, then that person can no longer get treatment via the health insurance provided. The only way this person could get further treatment is if that person spends his/hers own money.

Of course you're not going to know about this until the bill passes or it happens to you.

Also, if your employeer doesn't provide health insurance, and some will be exempt, you will be forced to seek insurance.

Can you afford an additional a $150 minimum per person bill each month for health insurance????

It's in the bill folks, so don't be so eager to welcome this Democrat health bill. It's a killer and a big time job killer.

Those companies, who fall under this planwho MUST provide health insurance for their employees will either close, or have to lay off employees.

Think about this folks.

There is no way that this boondoggle won't increase the deficit. This is madness. Have we as a nation lost our minds? The debt is staggering and we are gleefully adding to it, get your heads out of your butts!

I am all for providing healthcare for those who need it but this is not the plan President Obama campaigned for last year. The first thing the government needs to do before entering the healthcare field (again) is to fix the systems they already run i.e the Veterans' Admin, Medicare/Medicaid and, let's not forget Tricare (Prime and Standard). Show me some serious reform in the existing agencies and I'll show you where to get the money for another government run healthcare sector.

Say good bye to more small buisnes and more jobs if this passes. Someone needs to stop all of the spending we are all screwed!

I say we require all those Senators and Representatives, including the President and their families, to be the first to go on this new healthcare plan they're going to push through. If that would happen, we may end up with at least some decent care. Although I think we all know that isn't going to happen.

I'm all for universal health care - it's worked for years in other countries and it's no where near what the republican say it's like... it actually works. Here though, going by the one institution that offers universal health care - the VA - we have a long way to go... a very long way.

I'm a veteran and currently have no choice but to use the VA system. Among the recent issues, not cleaning equipment resulting in people getting more sick than when they went in, and the problems they have keeping up with women's issues... well, we've got a way to go. People would be surprised at the lack of care the VA gives our veterans, seriously, but they'll never know the extent of it because they cover everything up. I have many, many instances where I could've sued for malpractice. (I didn't, because if you know the VA, they WILL take it out on you in some way.. and that's the truth).

Not to mention the fact the VA is cutting back their healthcare centers because of money. I just lost the best doc I've ever had, and will be one of the very few still allowed to use the outpatient clinic I go to because I'm rated with a disability. Everyone else has to drive for hours instead now to go to the main hospital. A 2 hour drive each way for me, and I'm sure many other vets living within a 50 mile radius of here.

Universal healthcare is a good idea - if they get it right. If we end up with the same care we give to our veterans, and like those who are currently on medicaid because they can't afford ins for their kids (like me) or themselves.. we're in a world of trouble. The care we get from these medical providers is just laughable. Sad, but laughable.

But btco is a genius....

Yes...let's rush this all the way thru for Mr. Obama's signature and hope that at least 10% of those involved have actually read at least half the pages. And let's have a bunch of loaded town hall meetings where the synchophants can all clap and cry at every word spoken by their exalted leader.

America in the 20th century. Too bad they couldn't have stretched out the Michael Jackson media obsession for another couple of weeks, to keep the "health care" issue off the front pages. Just like what happened to "Cap & Trade".

The owner of my company is already talking about packing it in and heading off to spend his money and have fun rather than be the evil, continuous target for every tax that the president just can't wait to impose on him. I can't say that I blame him.

yea thats all we need for the government to tell me that i have to purchase health care when i cannot afford to do so obama is a bum.

50 million uninsured. That from the wealthiest country in the history of the world. It's shameful. We need affordable health care right now! The insurance companies and health providers cannot make it happen. Therefore, a public option is absolutely necessary. The richest country in the world can do a lot better than 50 million...1 in 6 Americans uninsured and millions more under-insured.

Brianb - Commrad, with talk like that, you will be sent off to Siberia. How dare you question the State!

yea thats all we need for the government to tell me that i have to purchase health care when i cannot afford to do so obama is a bum.

That's the whole point, Jake! Funding must be found to help 50 million people establish affordable health care. It doesn't matter to me where it comes from, but there needs to be an affordable public option.

It should all be free! If you give me somethin I will vote fer ya, specially if its free! I here that of the number of peeple who say they don have insureence that a lot of them ar between jobs and wont be without coverage fer long. But if its free then why worry? I could use a bit of schoolin too, then I might be smart enough to take care of myself and not listen to politicians who usually lye to me, but if its free well, lets all go fer a ber.

btco

golf - Really now, lowering taxes and spending more is what Bush did. Did that work well for us?

So increasing taxes and quadrupling spending is the better solution? It's common sense that if you cut taxes, people will have more money in their pockets to spend. More money spent into the economy helps to end the recession. Having the extra money to pay off loans/credit cards gets money back into the financial sector solving that crisis.

The Government needs to remove their hands from the proverbial cookie jar. If you tax the rich to death, there won't be any money left. I wonder what Obama and Congress have against the rich? Business owners work extremely hard to be successful and generate a nice living and then the government decides that because they worked so hard to achieve the American Dream they should be punished for those too lazy to take care of themselves. An overwhelming majority do not want this healthcare bill and Congress should think twice about voting for this bill...if they do, they may just find themselves unemployed next year.

I am sorry but this is going to fail...why...it does not promote healthy living nor reward good habits. I believe everyone should have health care but it should not just be free for everyone why??? Well because say I go to the dentist office for a yearly check up and they find nothing wrong...well then my bill is small. But to the people who go in and have a million cavities their bill will be higher...now under this system next year when I go in and have no cavities again and the same person has the same amount they will have another big bill. How about having that person who does not brush their teeth pay a percentage of his bill since he does not perform good hygiene habits...ohh wait no lets just give away money....I mean I am a nurse and in the ED department we have people called "Frequent flyer's" well they come from poor families and these people come in every weekend, some every day, and seek meds.....and we will all pay for them to run up bills and cause huge waits in the ED department.....OBAMA is not practical hes more of idiot if you ask me. Socialized Health Care can work BUT.....OBAMA'S WILL NOT!

My 58 year-old dad has been switched by his employer from an HMO health insurance plan to a health savings account. His employer has offered to pay $5000 into that account the first year, $4000 the second and $3000 the third, decreasing to zero health insurance after 5 years. What will happen to my dad, who has never run up a credit card bill and is about to pay off the home he bought in the early 80's, gets sick? He has worked hard his whole life and put my sister and me through college and still managed to save a little money for retirement. One heart attack between now and the day medicare kicks in will empty his meager retirement account and very well may cost him his house. This is a good person who did everything according to the rules of smart, frugal living. He is one heart attack away from losing everything. A heart bypass surgery can run as high as $20,000 + the cost of rehab and the hospital stay + the cost of ambulence, ER visit and any potential complications.

We deserve better. My dad deserves better than this. A variant of this post is the very thing I'm sending to Senators Voinovich and Brown. Something has to be done. Our system is broken!

Cate

I guess you can explain how a bill that has not even been introduced , has no specifics, has not been voted on yet has stopped your new company?

guess you have found a way to blame someone else but yourself for a bad business plan...since you left a "big corporation" your expereince should have had you budgeting in health insurance costs all along....

Let me guess you are poor and expect everyone else to pay for your health care as well as everything else you have!

btco - Just like a liberal to try to berate the opposition. Instead of challenging what I say, you resort to personal attacks. Let me ask you this - do you want me to personally attack you? I can, but since I am a conservative I think it would be childish. You make the choice.

As far as your criticism, my words are not harsh. They are real. If you can't accept the truth of the matter then it's you that is thinned skinned and are living in a dream world.

schwannomin-

1. We are only the wealthiest country if you don't subtract all of our debts.

2. Considering our unhealthy lifestyles, we have the most effective healthcare in the world.

3. NO ONE is turned away from a US hospital, not even illegals.

4. How many people without insurance have a cell phone or cable TV? (Answer : the majority). So what we really have is a situation where the Gov't should enforce strict standards of payment of medical care. If you mandate that a hospital must treat everyone, then the Gov't should pay for their care, but hen the Gov't should go after those who incurred the charges for payment. You use the service, you pay for it. If the Gov't wants to help finance your obligation, I could understand that.

But why should those of us who played by the rules, and have paid our medical bills be forced to pay for those who haven't. That is why it is expensive, because you are paying not only for your own care, but others who do not pay. The Obama/Democrat plans DO NOT CHANGE THAT. They want to make it where we will pay for them through taxes instead of higher costs. But that will not lower the price of medical care or insurance. It's just a shell game. This plan will lose as much money as it saves through Gov't inefficiency.

If the Gov't wants to force people to pay for healthcare, why not just go after people at the hospital who do not pay?

It would lower the price for us all, it would be a strong incentive for people to buy insurance, and to use the most cost effective means (clinics vs. ER).

Would someone really go to the ER for a common cold if they knew that they would have to pay the entire bill there? No way. They would go to a clinic like the rest of us. (Even the dumbest in society know that the prices at Walmart are less than Macy's).

But I guess he never said is would be "CHANGE" FOR THE BETTER.

Just look at the majority of federal high ways, gigantic pot holes, bridges falling down, surfaces that should have been replaced years ago steadily decaying. One of the most simple, basic, services - to maintain their portion of the transportation system, yet it's in total disrepair. I'm sure government health care will be much better........won't it?

A great first step? I think not. The larger corporations are once again going to be looking for foreign soil, the rich will put the pressure on to stop any taxes from coming their way, the health care industry is in no way going to give away free medical help (unless you are an illegal) and once again the middle class will be stuck holding the bag. Obama and the democrats are digging a hole that this country is never going to get out of.

b dune - Even though this bill hasn't been originated, we know the drive of the liberals to make it happen. Obama and company don't care what it will cost. He doesn't even know how it's going to be paid for other than $455 Billion in higher taxes on the rich over the course of 10 years. But that's a drop in the bucket because there is no way the government will restrain itself from spending trillions on it. Considering the obvious, someone has to pay for it. It will be strapped on the backs of employers (as stated in the news article) and the Senate version applies stiff penaltys for anyone not signing up for it.

A lot of employers can't afford to carry the bill for health insurance. The employee has 2 choices. Provide their own health coverage, or find a job where the employer does pick up part or all of the tab. Both choices are up to the employee, not the employer. The senate wants to make it manditory for businesses to cover health care. It's an unfair burden on the business. A lot of businesses will go the way of the dodo because of this, or they will operate with fewer or no employees.

That's BS why would you want this coverage, you people need to get a job and pay for your own coverage.
I don't want to pay for coverage for every dead beat in the country.

Our government mandating what insurance companies must cover, the continued frivilous law suit are the primary reasons for insurance costs. Ask your auto insurer (if you have one) if there is a difference in cost between a liability only play, and a comprehensive plan. The answer is yes, and each time that government mandates a specific coverage, the rates rise accordingly. You must live in a very naive little bubble if you truly believe that health care is a "right". I have worked in manufacturing for the past 30+ years, and I can assure you that I employed many people that refused to participate in our group health insurance because some felt they were invincible, and some that chose not to spend the money. We are making so many efforts to help people that are too lazy, or unwilling to help themselves. Can anyone tell me why we do not have the "right" to our social securty considering we actually paid for it, or is this the next item that the "poor & neglected" are entitled to.

carlos,

my wife and I are self employed. we have coverage now for $900 /month under COBRA, which runs out in 2 months. she has what the insurance companies consider a pre-existing condition even though her doctor considers her cured and health. since we're in California, insurers deny full coverage to her. our choices are to move to a state that does not allow insurers to deny coverage due to pre-existing condition or for one of us to abandon our business and get a job with an employer with a group insurance plan, or self-insure and be at risk of health related bankruptcy. this is basically insurance company beaurocrats in control of my life. this is why I want health care reform. Unfortunately, due to our dysfunctional government, with noone willing to compromise, we'll probably end up with a way left-of-center solution. Even so, that will be an improvement for me, so I'll support it.

joe mota - You'd support this plan even if it destroys our economy? Do you have any idea what it will mean if our economy fails? How can you justify your selfish means when it will harm all Americans?

This is why I can't understand the thinking of the liberals. They want the government to control healthcare even though it will do more damage to us than is even fathomable.

that was a good response Brian....your post addressed the issues of existing businesses in a well thought out approach.

however, it did not address Cate issue -

you sound like a businessman - if you started a new company beginning in 2009 I would assume you would be aware of the impending insurance issue - whatever your stance - when laying our your business plans and what costs might be included you would need to include "these potential costs" to determine whether your plan is feasible or not....that's what business people do when "starting a new company"....those who have existing businesses certainly have to look at it in a different perspective.

for Cate to say their "new business was having some luck" but this will make them have to close it down
means there wasn't a plan past 6 months to begin with or they did not stay on top of what had been discussed regarding insurance coverage for over a year.

although I respect your input - existing business vs new start up is two issues. When starting a new business one takes in account the existing market, guidelines, costs. but potential new costs as well..

None, she believes other should pay for her

That's the whole point, Jake! Funding must be found to help 50 million people establish affordable health care. It doesn't matter to me where it comes from, but there needs to be an affordable public option.

Cool, you pay for everyone elses. I'll just pay for mine.

Who ultimately really believes it is big bad businesses or those making over a certain amount of money who will pay for this bill or any other tax? If you really think it is business, then I have some land in the middle of the ocean I'd like to sell you. The cost of this bill and any other tax are passed on to the average American consumer 100% or more in increased prices. Those businesses will also now have to pay their higher compensated individuals more to offset the impact this legislation had on their real income. Who in the end pays for it is every American who buys anything. What needs to happen is we need to wake up and stop the run away spending and pork barreling that goes on so our economy can recover and people can find jobs. This type of legislation and reckless spending will only hurt those who need it most and cause our economy to recover slowly and to a lesser extent than it normally would. Power to the people. They will ask for it and they will get it. Once the people believe they can spend someone elses money, then he is the fool who thinks he has his free lunch.

The gravy train is over @!$%#es. And by the way, it was Bush's policies that bankrupted this country. Obama is just trying to clean up the idiot's mess.

Explain to me how going DEEPER in dept is helping. Seriously, I'd like to know.

Get ready for a $hit system rammed through without anybody reading it. The Devil will be in the details and we will all be screwed. All this to insure 10-15% of people without insurance, some of that number don't want it. I'm all for helping the poor and helpless, but I have absolutely no desire to help the lazy and clueless. When did everything become a right?

Mr. Rogers is right about the "coverage before cost" problem. And there's another problem. Forcing people to be covered by making it mandatory and threatening a $1,000 fine for people who do not buy insurance may get more people covered. But you can't force someone who can't afford something to pay for it. If people have to choose between paying their rent and paying for health insurance the choice is obvious. What good is their health insurance policy if they freeze to death sleeping on a park bench?

I didn't realize that we were adding to the "Bill of Rights"

But as usual, this administration will find a way to get around something like that.

"There should be no provision in this bill that eludes to rights"... including:

Patients rights, physician rights, hospital rights, rights for cats, rights for dogs, throw in the horse, and all of the hogs!

2010 cannot get here fast enough for me. (but the sun shows its face a little too fast in the morning) I only hope that whoever the new congress is, that they set up fast and move out all of the garbage that the President and Democratically controlled (contrived) Congress have moved in.

Where is Paul Revere when you need him? Is Teddy available? When will the color posters and statues of "Barak" begin to show-up on every fence, corner, and building?

I never thought that I would see the day that the American public swallowed hook, line , and sinker the words of a man and follow blindly... willingly... to our own gallows. It's very sad.

Government run healthcare is a definitive NO!!!! Healthcare became a mess when the government started to MANIPULATE healthcare.,first, with DRG's(diagnosis-relayed groups), then Medicare and Medicaid and then Hillarycare influence with insurance,drug, medical services. Prior to government involvement and influence, patients had a family doctor to go to who then dispensed services as needed, knew their patients and families and adjusted fees according to ability to pay. Then insurance came around to assist payment of services provided with source of monies through a pool of insurance payees. Now that we have health insurance, fees can be set at a higher rate as the provider will get paid. Now that insurance companies are paying the majority of the bill, patients expect more services, not necessarily out of necessity or prevention but desire and better outcomes and sometimes unrealistic out comes. Now come the lawyers who see a goldmine in potential malpractice and deep pockets of the insurance malpractice industry. We now have a vicious cycle brought on by government intervention in healthcare ( an entity government knows nothing about), that in the end has cost consumers tremendously in monies and quality of services. Before we create a new level of healthcare (which will snuff out choices for the consumer) we need to FIX the problems in healthcare first i.e. as tort reform, healthcare insurance regulation, beaucrat oversight of care delivry. Why such a rush to government RUN healthcare? Because you could not evaluate the rushed through bill garnished with pork, lack of control over individual choice, government beaucracy, coverage of non-citizens. The projected cost is $1.5 trillion over ten years BUT that does NOT consider inflationary factor of dollar devaluation over the next ten years with all the overspending that is going now and the borrowed monies from China.

Our national deficit since January has gone up to over 1 trillion dollars (twice the national deficit under George Bush). That is WITHOUT this healthcare pricetag of 1.5 trillion added in. Can we afford this right now?

I agree we need to rein in medical costs, but do we need to bankrupt ourselves even further in order to pay for it? They keep making promises (just like every other administration), but after everyone is talked into something, then they come up with the "Oh, by the way, we underestimated this, so we need to change it and tax more in order to pay for it."

The stimulus plan hasn't worked like they promised. Now they are saying "we underestimated things". Will the same thing happen with healthcare reform? Cap and Trade bill?

I really wish they would tackle one thing at a time, starting with the economy. Once that is under control, then add in healthcare reform. Later on down the road, then talk about energy bill reform. Don't try to do it all at once. Our paychecks can't afford anymore strain.

What happens when more jobs are lost because companies have to layoff more employees to pay for the medical coverage for remaining employees which will be required? If they don't offer it to employees, then they will be penalized 8% per employee, which also may result in layoffs in order to pay the penalty.

If there are more layoffs, then that means more people without insurance that can't afford to purchase individual coverage. That means more taxes for those that have jobs to pay for those that don't. Will this mean that the annual salary base of $250,000 (to be taxed to pay for those who don't have coverage) will be lowered because they underestimated this too? I wish they would take more time to look at all the angles and do more trouble-shooting.

I am very supportive of healthcare reform if it is done the right way, and well thought out. I don't want any surprises down the road that I will have to pay for because they didn't take everything into consideration.

I have already complied a list on the train this morning of whom is going to be fired at our two firms, if the house bill is passed. It is basically going to be the lower paid employees. - Patrick j 1.19

Guess it won't cost that much after all if you are just going to get rid of the lower paid employees and not the ones making 2x's more. I have to give it to you Patrick, great job with the scare tactics!

b dune - thanks for your comment. My concern over businesses originates with the small businesses that make up the majority of commerce in our country. A small business is one that has less than 1000 employees in some cases, down to less than 500 employees in other cases, depending on the type of business.

If the majority of these businesses get hit with having to provide healthcare, what will be the impact? It seems the government doesn't care what that impact will entail. My fear is that it will further shut our economy down and many of my friends and relatives will be out of work. Imagine that happening all over this country. What will the impact of THAT mean? People will act out of desperation... etc... you can see where I am headed with this.

netprophet - I am glad you aren't talking about me, but I totally disagree with your assessment. Don't point the finger in one direction without looking all around you. Although the republicans have done things I don't agree with, I can't blame them for all the problems in this country. Your rant is immature because you completely omit the faults of the democrats, or do you think democrats do everything correctly or all things in your best interest? You might want to rethink your rant if you are honest to look at the harm the democrats have caused.

 It's not going to be fixed till Re-form is made on Health care cost & Insurance cost. If we have to give up tax dollars then Insurance Companies, Doctors, Hospital's and Pharmacy companies need to reduce their cost. The Government needs to regulate gas & oil companies as well as utility companies. We have to pay a price so should they, as in not as much profit. Quit trying to screw the little man out of all his money. It's bad enough so much is spent in tax dollars.

If it passes, this country is really doomed and what so unfortunate is that this appears to be the 'real' obama plan (to plunder this country and drive it into bankruptcy). I hope it fails and fails miserably, likewise the cap and trade tax bill and anything else this group of crooks has in mind.

If you don't believe that any cost savings can be achieved by insuring the iuninsured you are wrong. You are already paying their health-care costs. When an uninsured person goes to a hospital, gets treatment, and doesn't pay their bill, guess who pays? You do. If, instead, you paid for their insurance, and they went to see their primary intead of going to the emergency room, YOU would save money. (As an added bonus, the wait in emergency rooms might be shorter, going forward.)

No wonder Obama is trying to shove this through before the break! He doesn't want Senators and Congressmen to go home to their districts to learn that their constituents will vote them out if they vote for this. 73% of Americans want to leave their own insurance in place. Obama pretends that will be the case but by offering any government option he can unercut all other insurance so that private insurance really isn't an option.

The Socialization of America continues! Stop it by going to your to your anti socialized medicine tea parties on Friday at the office of any congressman nationwide at 9 AM PST. Do It for your life.

Obama's 'Hopey-Changy-Hocus-Pocus' has already resulted in: No home equity (or no home), no jobs, half an IRA account, lost pensions, work "furlows", no customers, empty storefronts, and trillions of useless debts which just keep growing exponentially. Now, Obama says he's "hopeful" again...this time about adding another trillion or so in new taxes for 'health care'. Don't we have an a** full of Obama style 'hope' already??

I beg you to call all your representatives NOW and let them hear how much you do not want this stupid bill. Talk about high cost of medical care. Canadians pay 60% of their income in taxes-a great deal of it for medical care. I'd rather pay more for insurance and help the lower classes pay for theirs than have big brother deciding if I'm worth saving (the answer is no if you are over 50--if you are over 50 or ever plan to be better call now). Call the White house too while you are at it.

Another Obmanation! He says we are broke then puts up another 2-3 trillion dollar bondoggle for us to carry on our backs. Say NO!

Joe, I would rather see more access through reform in the issues you face including preexisting conditions in the private sector for those willing and able to secure their own insurance. In the case of those who cannot afford to contribute we might consider expanding the existing programs. I have a daughter with what is considered a preexisting condition and I understand the issues, I am far from a Republican as I have no respect for either party. I do not wish to be part of a government run system and I believe that if I am forced into one it is a infringement of my freedom. I believe we can take control of the problem without the government taking control of us.

Are you nuts!!??? No, you are just another one of the blood-sucking leeches that this leftist, socialist, Marxist bunch in DC appeals to. WHY in the world would a rationally thinking person TRUST our government with 1/3 of the economy, (review 2nd sentence for correct answer) let alone expect that they could ever keep costs in order??? As politically incorrect as my next statement will be....I am COMPELLED to express it. I HATE Obama, Reed, Pelosi, and the rest of you freaks. (And you know who you are)

Brianb....

"My concern over businesses originates with the small businesses that make up the majority of commerce in our country. A small business is one that has less than 1000 employees in some cases, down to less than 500 employees in other cases, depending on the type of business".

Small business is going the way of the dinosaur! Large business is becoming government controlled... and moving all manufacturing off-shore is possible! Energy... that commodity that we all need... it's being taxed to death and it is being squeezed into a funnel of product production that is years away. And we can kiss being sell-reliant away. That's one of the biggest smoke screens.

"The administration has not even addressed small business, but has rather treated it like an annoying fly. It used to be the elephant in the room but times have shrunk this elephant into a mouse". (Me)

I read one commentary from an individual yesterday that complained about the belly aching that viners were doing and not really coming up with ideas for the problem. I personally think that the health care problem is not really a problem of urgency. It's puffed-up to seem like an emergency. But jobs and employment are... there's an emergency!

Well... here's my idea.....

Reverse everything that the government has done in the last year of legislation. I can't think of one idea that was beneficial to this country. We ought to get a referendum going to push the new Presidential election to coincide with the 2010 elections.

Well, there's going to be a real shortage of doctors starting immediately. Our dentist suddenly decided to retire this week with this Bill almost being passed. He's going to early retire. Think of all the baby boomer doctors who have hung on waiting to find a replacement for their practices............they'll quit too. Even younger doctors are changing professions at an alarming rate these days. Guess if you are smart enough to be a doctor, you're smart enough to quit when the government tries to control your profession and income.

They can make people pay for insurance but they can't make doctors stop retiring. This will be another disasterous situation caused by our government and the career politicians..................just like this economic mess and it was caused by unemployment from raising the minimum wage!!

btco

He thinks it free...

brianb, I'm no liberal and I do not want government controlled health care. I'm just looking out for my own interests, which in this case means health coverage for my wife. I'd support a non-public reform that did away with the pre-existing condition waiver, but the repubs are blocking the middle ground, so what we're going to get is the liberal version.

Does he NOT realize the repercussions of this? Let's just cram it through.

To everyone --- We need to bring to the forefront CONSTITUTIONAL Amendments for 1.Congressional Term Limits 2. Balanced Budget 3. Line Item Veto There are provisions to accomplish this in the Constitution, Article 5 ".....on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid for all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratifcation may be proposed by the Congress;" ''..... and no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in theSenate."

I'll never understand why common folk are so opposed to taxing the wealthy???Do they really believe that there is some pot at the end of their rainbow??Do they still actually believe in trickle down???Do they honestly think that someone who pays $325,000.00 for a car (or ten) has any interest in helping the little guy out.Do you really buy that( "we're the producers") rhetoric??
Excess wealth is a personality disorder.These are people who only identify with their possessions and earnings.Even their personal relationships are relegated to that realm.With trophy wives ,pedigreed children and the "right" friends.While most of us simply want food,shelter,clothing,friends and family.Most of our simple needs have been commodified and bought out from underneath our feet by the swashbuckling financial bullying that commenced in the eighties with Mr.trickle-down Reagan himself.And why was a "trickle" ever even acceptable??Because most of you identified with the excess???Because you hoped that by keeping the narrow road to "abject" wealth passible you too might have a chance at achieving that imperial status of "REALLY RICH"? Suckers! There isn't a chance in hell.You are being taxed as much as 40% of your income and getting nothing for it.The top ten percent or so who control 90% of the wealth pay nothing in taxes.Yet they are the biggest recipients of goverment handouts and this is all okay to most of you????BUT!,god forbid a good for noth'n lazy single mother of three ask for 100.00 a week in food stamps..................or much less healthcare???
Jesus himself would kick her to the curb and the peel-out in his Bentley...............

schwannomin..... I'm glad you don't care where the funding comes from..... you can pony up the money to pay for those 50 million uninsured people. It amazes me that some of you think the money comes from some mystical tree. Nothing is free! Even if you already have coverage, you will be taxed to pay for everyone elses health insurance. Now I don't know about you, but if I'm going to pay for a public option I'm going to drop my private option. Why pay for something twice when you only get coverage once? Now.... what do you suppose is going to happen to all those private insurance companies (assuming most) when people like me go on the public option? I'll tell you..... they are going to go out of business! How many jobs lost do you think that's going to be?

Okay I have to fess up and admit I was wrong about the Stimulus Plan not working. New Hampshire received $413M and created 34 jobs. Great work NH! They will get between 500 and 700 million in Stimulus funds which should help create another 28 jobs. I apologize to all for saying the BO Stimulus Plan won't work. Therefore I am probably also wrong to say the BO healthcare take over will not work. The media continues to report the cost at $1T over 10 years, that's only $100,000,000,000 each year. But it does not work like that, only 17% will be spent in the first five years and the other 87% will be spent in years 6-10. Starting year 6 it will cost $230,000,000,000. Congress does not have any idea were this money will come from. Hum… sound familiar. I would also assume most people don't know that the cost will rise each year. This hits the small businesses the hardest, but not to worry maybe you can get a job in New Hampshire were so many are being created with the Stimulus money. Silly me to think this plan is not just the greatest thing since sliced bread.

PS The $1T does not include administrative costs or account for the cost of implementing the program.

carlos,

I don't WANT the public option. I'd rather see better regulation of the private insurance industry including pre-existing conditions and extending coverage to all children (it's no child's fault if their parents are deadbeats).

As things currently stand, insurance company beaurocrats are in control of health care decisions. the insurance company beaurocrats are under constant pressure from their bosses to delay or deny payment of claims...the forms they send are incomprehensible making it hard tell whether a service has been paid for or not. The status quo stinks.

I wish there was some participation from the other side of the aisle to try to pull things back towards the center, but it's probably a better strategy from the republican viewpoint to cause Obama's reform effort to fail. So we're going to get the liberal version.

1. We are only the wealthiest country if you don't subtract all of our debts.

2. Considering our unhealthy lifestyles, we have the most effective healthcare in the world.

3. NO ONE is turned away from a US hospital, not even illegals.

4. How many people without insurance have a cell phone or cable TV? (Answer : the majority). So what we really have is a situation where the Gov't should enforce strict standards of payment of medical care. If you mandate that a hospital must treat everyone, then the Gov't should pay for their care, but hen the Gov't should go after those who incurred the charges for payment. You use the service, you pay for it. If the Gov't wants to help finance your obligation, I could understand that.

But why should those of us who played by the rules, and have paid our medical bills be forced to pay for those who haven't. That is why it is expensive, because you are paying not only for your own care, but others who do not pay. The Obama/Democrat plans DO NOT CHANGE THAT. They want to make it where we will pay for them through taxes instead of higher costs. But that will not lower the price of medical care or insurance. It's just a shell game. This plan will lose as much money as it saves through Gov't inefficiency.

If the Gov't wants to force people to pay for healthcare, why not just go after people at the hospital who do not pay?

It would lower the price for us all, it would be a strong incentive for people to buy insurance, and to use the most cost effective means (clinics vs. ER).

Would someone really go to the ER for a common cold if they knew that they would have to pay the entire bill there? No way. They would go to a clinic like the rest of us. (Even the dumbest in society know that the prices at Walmart are less than Macy's).

But I guess he never said is would be "CHANGE" FOR THE BETTER.

Let me go through your points one by one. 1. Based on GDP we are still far and away the wealthiest country in the world.

2. Considering our unhealthy lifestyles, we have the most effective healthcare in the world.

2. Considering our unhealthy lifestyles? I don't really know what that means, but I'll agree that obesity has a huge impact on the cost of health care in this country. However, it does not explain the unusually high infant mortality rate as well as a number of other facts about the quality of Americans' health. I will concede that America has the best health care available for the wealthy.

3. NO ONE is turned away from a US hospital, not even illegals.

3. You'd like to scapegoat illegal immigrants, which is a problem in and of itself that will have to be addressed. I just can't see transforming ER's into pay prior to care facilities. What do you do with the unconscious? What do you do with the person involved in a car accident? Should everyone have their Visa card next to them if they'd like to get their broken leg set? I don't see ER's ever being turned into pay-or-get-out facilities. I don't think there would be a lot of college kids signing up for med school if that were the kind of care they'd be administering.

4. How many people without insurance have a cell phone or cable TV? (Answer : the majority). So what we really have is a situation where the Gov't should enforce strict standards of payment of medical care. If you mandate that a hospital must treat everyone, then the Gov't should pay for their care, but hen the Gov't should go after those who incurred the charges for payment. You use the service, you pay for it. If the Gov't wants to help finance your obligation, I could understand that.

Again, care IS mandated from emergency rooms. I think it should be, but maybe this is where you and I disagree. You'd like to see ER's turn away people who don't have payment. I think that's inhumane and ruthless. If you want to compare the cost of a cell phone with the cost of an ER visit, I'd support you in that. One thing the cost of a cell phone didn't do that the cost of healthcare did do last year, rose by >6.5% while GDP dropped in 2008. Now your rambling at the end seems as though you are good with a public plan proposed by Obama.

If the Gov't wants to help finance your obligation, I could understand that.

So, I guess we're in agreement.

Have a great day!

schwannomin...

Didn't read the whole thing. You lost me with your condescending appoach. It reminds me of this government that thinks it know best for us all.

The less government intervention ( or applied force) the better.

P.S. Illegals are a problem.

Good day Senator,

I am writing to voice my concern and disappointment with both the Cap & Trade and Health Care legislations making their way through Congress. Enacting one or both of these pieces of legislation at this time will cause further irreparable financial harm to the United States! Those conclusions are not my own but of trained scientists, educators, economists, doctors, specialists, etc.

Further, it is my firm belief that the United States is presently in dire economic straits equal to or worse than what California is going through right now. Operating in a deficit proves the country does not have the MONEY to spend! Taking additional federal tax dollars (no matter how few or many), for the proposed new programs will force "in state" families to cut their spending more, thus taking away from our critical local and state programs: education, fire, protection, infrastructure, etc.

There is simply NO amount of hysteria based media that can create justification or "feelings" to overcome the facts on these topics!

It is my wish that Congress focus attention on "fixing" our existing programs of Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security that all ready cover +95% of the new proposed Health Care legislation. Work with insurers and medical professionals to reduce those costs!

Lastly, a yes vote from you on either of these pieces of harmful/wasteful legislation and I will regretfully no longer be able to give you my voter support in the future.

Best Regards,

Something new please - If the Gov't is going to force people to pay for insurance, then why not force them to pay their medical bills? That would solve the entire problem you speak of at almost no cost. Who would go to the ER for the common cold if they would have to pay the bill for it? They would use regular doctors offices like those of us with insurance. The Gov't could finance it, so that they could make payments.

However, the Obama/Democrat plan moves the cost of the uninsured from higher prices on the insured to higher taxes on the insured. With the added cost of Gov't inefficiency (10-30%), there will be no savings and what responsible people pay in total would go up.

Will. I did 20 years in the Corps and just like a lot of other "common" folk, I realize I will never be a millionaire. I am happy with that. I also dont believe in taking more from the rich who in most cases have worked hard, taken huge risks that I am unwilling to, and also happen to employ (or cause the employment of) many other "common" folk. Just because I dont buy into Marxism class warfare ideology, doesnt make me a sucker. Yeah, I would love to have that 40% in taxes back. If I wasnt having to pay into SS and Medicare that would be a good start. BUT since these are RIGHTS now, I have to play along. What I want is the govt and those that worship at that altar, to LEAVE ME ALONE. I did my service, I will take care of myself. I dont need big brother telling me whats good for myself. Oh, before anyone starts, I am an independent. I got off the coolaid several election cycles ago, and I would bet a lot of the folks on here who get labeled Republicans or Democrats are the same.

The time for health reform has finally arrived. What really irks the hell out of me is the nay sayers who complain about its cost. However, when it comes to fighting the war in Iraq, an necessary war, they do not complain. These nay sayers will spend billions even trillions if needed on unnecessary wars, but refuse to spend a dime to benefit its own citizens. I wonder why? Is it because many of these nay sayers own share of stocks in companies that are profiting from wars. I just do not understand these nay sayers.

I have health insurance which I pay for, however I know people that do not have health insuranance who have been refused adequate health care. Fact in point, I know a young man who went to the emergency room with a terrible headach, and was given tylenol and sent home, instead of having some test performed to determind why he was having this excruciating painful headach.

Had this young man had health insurance he would have been admitted into the hospital and test would have been performed to determine the cause of the pain.

Several hours later this young man was brought back to the emergency room in a coma by an ambulance. He was diagnoise as having an Aneurysm.

After surgery and several months in a coma the young man servivied, however he is incable of taking care of himself and is in a home for bedridden patients.

His care is now being paid by you the taxpayer. He did not have health insurance because he had been out of high school for about four years, and was working in a low paying service job. His employer could not afford to pay medical health insurance.

The result of this scenario may have been different had he been quickly diagnosed and surgery performed. He could now have been a contributing member of society instead of in the condition he is in.

I am not making this sitituation up. This young man is my nephew. I for one will gladly help pay for taking care of our citizens than paying for unnecessary destructive wars. Wars that are lining the pockets of greedy individuals.

Something new please - If the Gov't is going to force people to pay for insurance, then why not force them to pay their medical bills?

That is impossible for millions of Americans. Health care does not conform to market forces. You can't charge more and get less people to purchase life saving treatment. It just doesn't work that way.

BO plans to make heathcare affordable for everyone.

Only one problem. The plan leaves out (or exempts) small business from having to join in. According to my research that leaves many of us out in the cold. Here is the info i found.

Ninety-nine (99) percent of employing businesses are "small" under prevailing definitions.  Another way to look at it:  60 percent of all businesses that employ people other than the owners have 1 to 4 employees; another 20 percent have 5 to 9 employees; and yet another 10 percent have 10 to 19 employees.  Businesses employing fewer than 100 people (excluding the self-employed who employ no one but themselves) constitute 96 percent of all employers (Source: calculations by NFIB Research Foundation from data published by the Office of Advocacy, U.S. Small Business Administration.)

So if the PLAN only forces 1% of companies to partake then thats a whole lot of money being used for relatively few people. The rest of us will have to go to canada or mexico for healthcare.

Great thinking. BO.

The real first step that should be taken is not an overhaul of the health part but getting control of the tort system, which would immediately drop the insurance cost of doctors which would immediately lower all other costs.

There are two problems with this solution... the tort lawyers are the biggest campaign contributers to the lefties and getting control of the tort lawyers would not give BO and his criminals the control of everyone's life that they have planned.

It isn't about charging Americans more. Healthcare is already gov't subsidized with the tax deduction on employer provided health care benefits, and it's still more expensive than anywhere else in the world! You are paying for the health care whether or not there's a public plan and you are paying for everyone else who has gone to the ER and not paid. It's just that with a public plan the number of bankruptcies due to health care costs go to near zero. And, people are less likely to put off treatment until they are at risk of dying.

Had it in Kansas,

Not sure how old you are but government price fixing will not work. It only makes things worse.

Google: NRA Depressioin

1970's gas wars

schannomin - The bank FINANCED my home. That doesn't mean that they are going to pay for it. There is a difference.

I'm not advocating that the ER be "prior" pay. I'm advocating that you should be responsible for paying for the services you receive. You have to eat to live, but if you skip out on your check at a resturaunt, the police will come after you.

How can you make an illegal pay for anything? You take care of their problem at the hospital, giving them the care that they need, and then they are turned over to INS.

The US consumes 1/2 of all the presciptions drugs in the world. We use about the same amount of illegal drugs (about 1/2). We eat the fattiest diet. We excersise the least. All in all, we have incredibly effective medical care now. How many of the babies that we lose are crack babies (or meth.)?

But the idea of people paying for the medical care that they receive scares you.

And at the same time, being forced to pay for SOMEONE ELSE'S CARE is OK by you.

I'm guessing you would be considered Obama's core demographic.

"I don't wanna pay for myself, make someone else pay for me."

joe mota

brianb, I'm no liberal and I do not want government controlled health care. I'm just looking out for my own interests, which in this case means health coverage for my wife. I'd support a non-public reform that did away with the pre-existing condition waiver, but the repubs are blocking the middle ground, so what we're going to get is the liberal version.

joe - I wasn't accusing you of being liberal. Sorry it sounded that way. I empathize with your situation concerning your wife. I know that our current system has flaws. One would have to live in a vaccum to think otherwise.

I am not for capituation to anything the Obama administration and the democrat leadership wants. I understand your thinking about the republicans not giving in, but I actually support them in this. Do you honestly think the democrats are going to give the republicans anything anyway? I'd rather see the democrats fail without any republican support. By fail, I mean them pushing through their plans and have it fall flat so the American public will finally realize how terrible the democrats have treated this country. I'd rather the democrats own their own failure. The problem is the ideology of the left versus the right. There are many liberal republicans (RINO's), so those repubs that vote for it will also own the failure. It appears as though the liberal version will be the one that will be adopted irregardless of whatever the republicans do either way.

So you would be able to go to an ER, get your care, and then, the payment would remain your obligation, just like it is under regular health insurance. If your insurance pays the medical bill, OK. If you pay the medical bill out of pocket , OK. If you don't have the money, the Gov't could pay the medical bill, and would FINANCE the amount that you would now owe the Gov't. They could have very low interest rates. But you would have to pay them back just like a student loan.

Are student loans evil? - you can't dispense them in bankruptcy. Well, we figure that education is worth financing and paying back. Shouldn't medical care be worth paying back even more?

What we are defending is America itself!! This traitor of a President we have is trying so hard to cram his socialist agenda down our throats and destroy American! Well, I for one will do my best to stop him. And in the end, the majority will. We will see a huge changed in the house next year, and Odumbo will be gone come January, 2013.

By the way, health care is not a "right"!

Unfortunately, this does nothing to "reduce or stem the % growth" in health care COSTS. Insuring every American does nothing but eash Obama's and the liberals conscience. Got after "COSTS SAVINGS" !!!!!!! GO AFTER DOCTORS, HOSPITALS, MIDDLE MEN, ETC. WHO ARE RAPING THE PUBLIC.

CommonSense370048- Patrick has it right. It makes sense that lower paid employees perform less critical tasks. Those would be the first to go in a bid to keep the business thriving. If you are going to save a tree you prune the branches - you don't cut the taproot.

Joe, I am with you I don't want a government run program. Unfortunately in the highly partisan atmosphere of power hungry Washington there will be no compramise. Only posturing and fear, this can be fixed but the partisan scoundrels who covet power over our lives will not solve this issue. Both sides and their weak minded followers.

Hey idiot when you're dieing and the govt says too bad we don't have the money....your sorry a** will die.

Get your head out of your butt and learn what they're doing---this is not about health care reform, this is about control and power!!!!!!!! Period!!!!

How about a bill that negates the present health care coverage that members of Congress have at taxpayers expense. How about a bill that mandates members of congress and members of the executive branch be the first to sign-on to the new program!

Carlos,

the power structure in DC is a result of polarization within the country. representatives of the most polarized districts are safe. there's no way San Francisco is going to send a republican to congress and no way South Carolina will send a democrat. so people like Nancy Pelosi and Rich Sanborn are re-elected over and over, gaining seniority and therefore control over committee assignments and therefore power. So we end up being ruled by the extremists. We go from democratic extremists to republican extremists and back again, depending on who's the majority party, with the typically more moderate president making do with what he's given. It's enough to want to invoke term limits.

Another 1.5 trillion dollars of our hard earned tax dollars that are going to be wasted on a governmental program that will never work (do any of them?) So, we are going to be FORCED into this and end up receiving care equivalent to that of a 3rd World Nation...or Wal-Mart care. Insane Obamo. Please do more than TALK AND SPEND. When will it end? Think the unemployment rate is bad now, wait until employers have to pay for this, which will mean fewer jobs, fewer raises, and above all substandard health care from Dr's from 3rd World countries as all of our good American doctors will probably quit the profession or go to another developed nation that will pay them what they are worth!!!!! Thanks a lot O-speak-o-and o-spend-o-dumbo.

Putting more of his own political stake behind the effort each day, Obama outlined the troubles with the U.S. approach to health care coverage, with an emphasis on the cost to consumers. He spoke of soaring premiums, deductibles and out-of-pocket costs and promised with reform, "You'll save money."

"If you lose your job, change your job, or start a new business, you'll still be able to find quality health insurance that you can afford," Obama promised. Once again assuring Americans who are dubious of what might be changing, he said anyone happy with their doctor and health care plan will be able to keep it.

1. Why such the rush? Why not develop strategy test, refine, test, refine, troubleshoot...etc have congress use it for 3 yrs before the public..etc.
2. Was Disneyland planned out in less than 8 months?
3. It has been stated and analysed several times, how is it cheaper for someone who has no medical bills what-so-ever and no health problems? I can choose right now to not have it and save myself enough to eat each month....otherwise I starve and end up in the ER...its your (voters) choice...after all its your tax money that I will be using to go to the ER when I am starving...or have PMS, lol.
4. Will the lobby against real (organic and non-processed) food grow to become huge and parallel with the medical/pharmacutical lobby?
5. Is the "fake food" and pharmaceutical lobby behind Obama? If so, how much have they contributed and to whom? How often do they lobby the same person/entities?
6. Is the only time we will find quality health care when we lose your job, change your job, or start a new business,- can't put anything past this government.

Disclaimer: I have a right to my questions and comments without being called a racist rightwing hatemonger. Thank you

Amazing that we allowed these right wing idiots run our government over the past years. Yes, IDIOTS, the same ones who are now calling for COST BEFORE COVERAGE...

Isn't that what private healthcare is all about: COST BEFORE COVERAGE. You pay, and the health insurance will contract a physician group to cover you. If you're lucky to be old, or poor then government may be able to cover... else TOUGH LUCK. Haven't we are already on this path? Better hope you won't get sick and sell all your assets to the wealthy, so that you will be part of the caste system that the GOP and the Conservatives are building.

HERE IS A BRIGHT IDEA: WHY DON'T WE DO BOTH, COVERAGE & COST, AT THE SAME TIME! You know there are people out there that can chew gum and walk at the same time. In fact, I think most of those walk on 2 legs now days. There isn't a rule that you need to do one before the other!

Conserva, you are correct in what you say. Not only that the government will decide on who lives and who dies. You have cancer? opps so sorry, no treatment for you.... Here's some pain medication and go on your way!!!

RON FOURNIER really needs to sign this byline.

Here is another thing, how do you figure it is a GOVERNMENT RUN PROGRAM? Even if it is, what is so bad about government run program. This is about improving the health of our American force (while reducing cost), not about how to improve profitability by denying coverage.

How is denying coverages and increase profit margin going to improve our workforce health in the long run? The health insurance have made tremendous amount money for their investors. However has it improve American health? Has it help lower the cost of coverage? Who are the people actually lining their pockets with our money? It is not the doctors, not the workers, not the patients,....

"The status quo on health care is not an option for the United States of America," Obama said. "It is threatening the financial stability of families, of businesses and of government. It's unsustainable."

What is unsustainable is the notion that it is "someone else's" responsibility to pay for health care. There is "no one else" left to pay for this govt. health care. I have said repeatedly that the problem needs to be looked at differently. Send the illegals home and do not give them the free access they have been enjoying at our expense. Force those who refuse employer sponsored health care to participate. Find those who are truly needing of benefits and work on them. BUT FIRST: fix the broken systems for Medicare, Medicaid and the VA. Things should be made right for these folks FIRST before the govt. EVEN ATTEMPTS to add more individuals. This ill though govt. plan will ensure that people like myself, who has employer sponsored health care (from a small business) will lose there coverage, and be forced to become part of the group who will suffer under the govt. plan. As a cancer survivor, I am deeply troubled by the thought of the govt. determining if I "am worthy" of possible future treatment. I'd much rather have private insurance and determine my own destiny.

Brian...

By fail, I mean them pushing through their plans and have it fall flat so the American public will finally realize how terrible the democrats have treated this country. I'd rather the democrats own their own failure.

If we were playing a game of hop-scotch, or scrabble... maybe. But we are talking about an entire nation. The government is sticking it's hands in every hole just to find out what lives there! We can't afford your scenario... and once the system gets going... forget it! It will not be reversed!

There are too many politicians that are going to use the Obama formula ... Dems and Repubs to elected into a new position. That formula is... act very convincingly about your conviction to the arguments...(learn to read a teleprompter) and then do the exact opposite once you have landed at your goal.

This is nothing new... but then again... we have never had such a naive voting population like we do at this moment! We have only ourselves to blame for that.

Wrong + wrong does not = right.But that is the Obama administrations philosophy, and we have an electorate that has somehow bought into that. I had one Friend that voted for Obama strictly because he wanted a president who knew how to read a speech. Didn't matter that he delivered the dog pile in a grand fashion!

I agree with most of your contemplations though.

Take care.

So you would be able to go to an ER, get your care, and then, the payment would remain your obligation, just like it is under regular health insurance. If your insurance pays the medical bill, OK. If you pay the medical bill out of pocket , OK. If you don't have the money, the Gov't could pay the medical bill, and would FINANCE the amount that you would now owe the Gov't. They could have very low interest rates. But you would have to pay them back just like a student loan.

Are student loans evil? - you can't dispense them in bankruptcy. Well, we figure that education is worth financing and paying back. Shouldn't medical care be worth paying back even more?

Your proposal still doesn't address the elderly who consume the vast majority of healthcare. Medicare has to be reformed to be cheaper and the old who are not old enough to receive medicare cannot be charged as college students are charged. They don't have 30 years to work off their indentured servitude to the hospital/gov't.

The fact remains that health care costs are rising much faster than GDP and astronomically faster than the median wage. There is no way this care gets paid for without a strong central insurance plan that can negotiate costs with the provider as is done in France, Canada, Britain, Germany, and just about everywhere else in the developed world. And they all have higher life expectancy, lower infant mortality, and greater access to care. Fully one half of all personal bankruptcies are due to healthcare costs. You'd like to block those bankruptcies, but nobody can pay $100,000 medical bill. With the median wage hovering around $40,000 a year, you couldn't pay off $100,000 bill in 50 years. The only solution is to lower the cost or allow people to die because they cannot afford care. There are multiple avenues to lower costs that are currently exploding under our market capitalist system as is, but they all require gov't intervention into the system.

No Sadie33, you are wrong. As of right now, that is exactly what health insurers are doing. They are denying coverages to cancer patients. It is more like, deny treatements suggested by doctors, becuase it is not a proven treatment for cancer. There are plenty of documented cases that patient's medical history are dug up, and policies are retroactively cancelled to help increase insurance company profit.

Why should a FOR PROFIT company decide on whether I live or die? They are not even doctors.

We can't afford your scenario... and once the system gets going... forget it! It will not be reversed!

Why? This is democracy! Everything can be reversed. The reason it would never be reversed is because medicare can never be taken away because it's hugely popular. Europe's healthcare plans will never be taken away because they're hugely popular. Likewise with Canada. And in all these countries they live longer and healthier lives.

No Sadie33, you are wrong. As of right now, that is exactly what health insurers are doing. They are denying coverages to cancer patients. It is more like, deny treatements suggested by doctors, becuase it is not a proven treatment for cancer. There are plenty of documented cases that patient's medical history are dug up, and policies are retroactively cancelled to help increase insurance company profit.

Why should a FOR PROFIT company decide on whether I live or die? They are not even doctors.

It isn't even a FOR PROFIT company that decides whether you live or die. It's often a temp worker who has to meet a quota of claims rejections to keep her job. I know that for certain.

I just don't get it. How can any American be opposed to this? Are the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical giants supplementing your income? My husband's employer just negotiated health care with BCBS, and the were going to increase it by $750,000!!!! That's a one-year increase. Of course, that increase is borne by the employees, too...poorer coverage and less Rx benefits. Get real, people! Stop fighting for big business just because you're a stupid republican! The sooner we vote the Nopublicans (with absolutely NO alternatives) out of office, the better off this country will be!!!!!! For those who are so against this...just to be against it (no logical reasoning involved at all)....why was it okay to ship billions of our dollars overseas the first eight years of this decade? Those are your dollars, too! But to spend those billions (trillions, whatever it takes) here on your own turf, you get pissed off?!!?!!? Lord, people, read a lot of different websites, watch something besides Fake News, and try to educate yourself on just where your tax dollars have been going FOR YEARS, and where they could go in years to come TO BENEFIT PEOPLE LIKE YOUR HOLY JOE THE FREAKIN' PLUMBER!!!!

So according to the new crown prince of our nation, citizens should have to protected rights to " Life, Liberty, the Pursuit of Happiness, and Health Care".

It's too bad this country's founders didn't have Barack Obama to tell them how to set this nation up correctly.

What a moron we have running the show. He has not been right on any economic projections yet and brushes off dollar projections done by those who do that for a living, such as the CBO. Nobody knows anything but this guy. And he hasn't hit a bullseye yet.

He'll tell us 'this is the health care proposal your congressmen put together without mentioning that it was his campaign promise that he was having congress write a plan to fulfill. He was the guy campaigning on health care reform, but he has nothing to do with the formation of the plan.

The guy gives good speeches and appears likeable...and has the backbone of a squid.

Did you ever realize when Obama wants to push his Socialist agenda that he always has a warning of urgency? He did it on his stimulus plan that did not stimulate. We have to pass this stimulus plan in order to keep unemployment under 8%... Yep, it is shovel ready alright, if we jept animals in a barn. He did it on the largest national budget (4 times larger than Bush's). He's trying to do it with "Cap and Trade" and with "Nationalized Health Care". Why did he not see the same urgency when the Somali pirates captured the American tanker captain? To me, that incident needed urgency, not this. Nationalized Health Care needs careful, in depth study from multiple areas of the public and private sector. To rush this through would be irresponsible and catastrophic to our economy. Let's make a wise decision this time... not a hurried one. Let all of the House and Senate see all of your proposals several days in advance and not drop it on congress a 3:00am the day it is to be voted on. Honestly, you are a public organizer, not someone capable of putting something like this together on your own. My question is... If you are pushing it already, then it must be done. If you proposal is finished, send it to the House and Senate now, not the day beforeit is to be voted on. And if your proposal is not finished, then why are you pushing it so hard?

So according to the new crown prince of our nation, citizens should have to protected rights to " Life, Liberty, the Pursuit of Happiness, and Health Care".

You don't have to add any words, tony. The only one that matters is life.

So according to the new crown prince of our nation, citizens should have to protected rights to " Life, Liberty, the Pursuit of Happiness....

Free healthcare promotes abuse of the healthcare system. If you don't have any responsibility to the system (i.e. some payment), then why not seek healthcare, usually in the form of an urgent care, or an ER to take care of such petty things as a sore throat, a toothache or a skinned knee. We already have socialized medicine in the form of medicaid. The government's low payments to Doctors and hospitals have driven up the cost of healthcare for the rest of us. Doctor's also eat the cost and assume the liability with little payment in return. Doctor's are already becoming scarce in certain areas of the country because reimbursement is so poor. They think this will allow access for EVERYONE to healthcare but who will care for them? It will no longer be worth giving up 12 years of your life and come out of school with $100,000 or more in school loans, compromise your family life etc, etc, to only be making $100,000 per year! I am a nurse....Tort reform, lowering malpactice, fair payment, making medicaid/medicare reimbursement easier, that would be real healthcare reform. Instead, the U.S. will be even more in debt, we will have a much poorer quality of healthcare (reference Canada and Britain that comes to the U.S. for treatment) and we will set up a new government agency we will NEVER get rid of!!! Has anyone out there been in a VA hospital lately? Welcome to your new world! Obama wants to make history, but at who's expense? It's frightening.

schwannomin...

We're American... not europeans (sorry mom). It takes an act of God to reverse the system... you know that! (on second thought... maybe not) Once it's in place... it doesn't get moved. Once government gets it's hand on something... they juice it to the max! The best is to keep them off our backs as much as possible. They would be better off sitting in the backroom of our discussions rather than the forefront.

The less government on businesses and individuals... the better.

Where'd you hang your Obama poster?

If you don't like the idea of a public plan, you just haven't been squeezed enough by your private plan yet. With the cost of healthcare rising at a 6-10% clip each year and GDP rising anywhere from 2-5%, you will eventually lose that benefit from your employer. It's simply not affordable. The longer we wait, the more people will go without, the more people will die unnecessarily, and the more expensive the system will be to fix.

Yes, yes. Keep the gov't off my back. I get it. But keep the army recruiters in my schools and the senators in my uterus.

Schwannomin...

I guess your for government as long as they are of your ilk... right?

You don't have to stop by the recruiting booth, and if you take care of what leads to a problem with your uterus... you have nothing to worry about. Personal responsibility... you know? That way you don't have to utilize the Health Care thing.

Did you get the color version... or black and white? Too bad Andy Warhol passed away!

While I fully support health care reform, and think a "public option" is needed, I am concerned about forcing employers to pay more costs, which will have two effects;

1 - Discourage employers from adding new employees.

2 - Encourage existing employers to cut back on jobs.

I would much prefer that it be paid thru a national sales tax to "save or create jobs".

If you don't like the idea of a public plan, you just haven't been squeezed enough by your private plan yet.

WRONG. I am plenty squeezed. But I would prefer private health care reform more so than just putting everyone on a public AKA government BS plan. Not enough of our people who can technically afford their employee insurance will even take that. You really think everything's gonna be just peachy when their taxes get jacked way up?

get a life - get a job You idiots don't realize that the majority of costs are due to gov. mandated care to indigents, aliens, illegal aliens, society drop outs, druggies, prisoners and politicians. one of the main reasons calif is so far in the hole is their policy of giving to the needy but mostly the greedy.

btco

Are you nuts ??? If this program is going to work so well, will the POTUS and family go on it, or will they (and ALL members of Congress) retain their own Care ????

If they knew what the hell they were doing, there would be better care in the VA system, not to mention the care afforded to the Native American population !

These BONEHEAD Liberals voted this MORON in, and now he thinks that he can do WHATEVER he can get passed ! " If they approve it, it must be a good idea".

If this bill gets passed, you will see MORE unemployment as companies lay off workers they can no longer afford, and this will also make other companies think about MOVING OUT ALTOGETHER ! Is Washington just STUPID ?

I'm all for everyone having health insurance, but I think that I should not pay for everyone elses. Paying for mine is hard enough.

Fix the economy FIRST ! Get people BACK TO WORK ! STOP SPENDING MONEY WE DON"T HAVE ! If you're not going to deport the illegals AT LEAST MAKE THEM PAY FOR THEIR EMERGENCY ROOM VISIT!

We have to band together as a COUNTRY and vote out all the IDIOTS in DC at the first opportunity!!! Make Congress represent the VOTERS again!!!!!

You heard it here first. If this bill passes, it won't be long before you'll have to leave this country to see an American doctor. Universal Healthcare does NOT WORK !!

But then again......Neither does our government !!

So if I go to the ER I have to pay for the rest of my life?

My daughter was born premature. Her hospital bills ended up at about a half million dollars, paid for by my insurance. I was lucky to have the insurance. My employer doesn't subsidize my insurance for her, so it costs about $400/mo to insure her, but it's great insurance. I checked on private insurance which would be cheaper but with a higher deductable. She's got a preexisting condition (at 6 months old), so she was denied.

So if I didn't have insurance, some suggest that I (or maybe she) should have to pay that back. And if she has to go the hospital again, which is likely, it will add another loan. Healthcare isn't like a student loan. You can't choose to go to a cheaper school, or work while you're in school.

President Obama's ratings are falling faster than his teleprompters.

This guy and his staff, along with the 32 CZARS he hired (part of the 600,000 jobs he wanted to create) don't have a clue as to how to run a country.

TAX and SPEND doesn't work. Maybe we should have CUT TAX and let the Tax payer SPEND. We'd be out of this recession faster than another of his teleprompters could fall.!!!

How disappointed in him are you?

thyurd My friend, you say some amazing things sometimes...lol. You said:

how do you figure it is a GOVERNMENT RUN PROGRAM?

This isn't going to be a private sector institution... like making cars, life insurance, or the banking industry. Government has no business doing those things, and leaves those areas to the private sector. No, this will be National Health Insurance, proposed by the President, and passed by the House and Senate, and paid for by the Chinese.

Even if it is, what is so bad about government run program? What's bad about it is that it would be a government run program. Look at Social Security... BROKE Look at Medicare... BROKE Look at our entire economy... NOT JUST BROKE, TRILLIONS of DOLLARS IN DEBT BROKE Who is going to pay for National Health Insurance? There are not enough rich people left. That means TAXES even higher than they are now. That means You and I and every other person that still has a job left. That means the balance is more than we can bear so the government goes deeper in debt. I do not disagree that we need Health reform... But National Health Insurance is NOT the answer.

There is a wise saying... "When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging." I say to my liberal friends... "When you find your economy in a hole, stop spending."

Disappointed in him? Yeah... but I knew what we were going to be getting.

Disappointed in the electorate... more than in the President. I am blind in many ways... but to see seemingly intelligent people fall over this President like he was Michael Jackson or Elvis Presley.. it was sickening. We have failed ourselves!

Corrective measures are 15 months too far away.....

btco is on welfare....

since my first comment was predictably collapsed, I'd just like to reiterate that the Republicans are IN THE POCKETS OF THE HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY...that's what all these ridiculous lies and deceptions in this thread are all about- protecting the cash cow...sorry guys, he's on his last moo...btw I don't think all Democrats are blameless...I'm independent myself, the republicans have just gone so far right that I have nothing in common with them anymore...move over to centerfield and maybe you can get elected again...i just know corruption and lobbying when I see it...Obama didn't get elected by lobbyists, though....therein lies your big problem...it's the last moo boys...

schwannomin - You say no one could pay off a $100,000 debt? That's just 6 years of taxes on $50,000 a year income. So now you are saying that we can't afford to pay our taxes?

Oh, let me guess, you think that the tax bill of $100,000 is not a problem, but a health bill of $100,000 is. Guess what. They are both $100,000.

Obviously, it is far less risky to have insurance. Elderly people are generally insured. They do not represent over 1% of the total uninsured.

Obama says that the uninsured are the problem. I show you the easiest way to solve it, then you try to shift it to being about the elderly. The propossed Obama/Democrat bill does not adress the elderly.

Do you not agree that a person should pay for the services they receive? How does it work at your job? I want to get paid for my efforts. Why should a Doctor be any different?

Everyday, judges mandate that (usually) fathers pay for the health insurance of their children. If they can't afford a new car, too bad. If they can't afford cable or a cell phone, too bad. So much of what we have is uneccessary. You can live without it. Healthcare is different. It must be at the top of a person's budget.

This is the problem. Many of the uninsured can afford insurance. I used to have insurance with a $2500 deductible. It was for the major stuff only. It costs less than half of full coverage.

But when you go to the multi bedroom, multi bath houses of some of the uninsured, you quickly see that medical care is not a top budgetary consideration for them.

Making people pay (just as you would if someone skips out on a meal or a tank of gas) is the only way to change that.

Let's imagine your world: I'm hungry, so I go to the store and take some food (Ribeyes are good). I've got to eat or I will die. But I don't have the money to pay. (My cable bill is so much). So I just walk out. So the Gov't solution is that the store will be paid with tax dollars. Then you can just take what you want. Except those of you who have been paying. You will have to keep paying, plus add in the extra tax.

My world: I'm hungry, so the Gov't loans me the money for food. I get some beans and rice (it's actually healthier than ribeye). They garnish my wages until I pay them back (just like child support). I can't pay the cable bill, so that will have to go. All of those who have been paying all along see lower prices at the store. They don't have to pay an extra tax to cover me. In fact, I even benefit because the prices are lower without all the theft.

Non payment of medical bills is theft of service. If we stop the shoplifting, the prices for all of us come down.

You don't have to refuse care to a patient, but if you are consuming tens of thousands of dollars a year in care that you can't pay for, it is not unreasonable for those of us who are paying for you to have some demands. You may not get some of the luxuries of life. Big screen TV, no way. New car, no way. Big house, nope, small apartment.

Now I don't want to have to control every spending decision you make, so why don't we just take it out of your income? Essentially, we put it at the top of your budget. Then you can do whatever you want with what's left.

What better incentive to pay your debt? And a great way to control costs. Obviously, if you are paying, and you are short on cash, you will choose the least expensive means. So no ER for a common cold. How about calling around for a low cost clinic? Why would you bother to do that if you can take anything you want?

That's how you contain costs. By being prudent with your spending.

We can find a compromise on what percent of the income is acceptable to take. Some of the medical debt will never be recovered. But from what I've seen, the figures show that many of the uninsured can pay.

If the uninsured are the problem, then there's your solution. Make them pay for themselves.

Because the alternative is to make those in society who have behaved responsibly pay for them. The incentive is not to have insurance and to let everyone else pick up the tab.

Which is what we are doing now, and then we say "The problem is the growing number of uninsured."

Gee, I wonder why?

I am very hopeful also,,,hopeful it does not get passed...its a bad resolution for health care..

The sad part about all of this is that nobody is pointing out WHO is going to pay these costs, which doctors and hospitals will be forced to take on the indigent patients, and by what means they are going to be reimbursed. Medicare alone has bankrupt many retirement communities and homes, along with the doctors and hospitals that prescribe the services. The hospital or doctor sends in a bill for $700 and they get paid $135 by Medicare and are supposed to eat the rest themselves or overcharge patients who may not have insurance but are able to afford a standard doctor's visit.

Of course, if everything follows, the left wing Democrats aren't even going to read the bills they are voting for, will pass them, and you will have the worst scenerio of socialized medicine you've ever seen.

I'm not a Democrat nor a Republican but the defiant bully attitude I saw on TV the other night, about how Hussein Obama, boasted that you ARE going to have this new health care system, whether you like it or not because you don't have enough votes to stop it, really grits my nickers. Ask almost any veteran what they think of the VA system? Or some of the HMO's who make you wait for a month to see a doctor and you may not see the same one twice? Or that Medicare in their efforts to control costs are now refusing to fill prescriptions for PM, and in fact you must first be diagnosed with the "full blown Disease" before they will pay for the prescription. Many seniors will NOT be getting their medicine because they cannot afford the prescription or the medicine. If you somehow contract something life threatening, they would prefer you die, than spend another dime on you, after you've worked and contributed to the system for over 40-50 years. Great reward...we return to savage thinking. The savages at one time, when you were too old to work, would shove you into the forest, so the Wolves could eat you. Now they're digging up graves and re-selling them in Chicago? What next? Solvent Green?

It was pointed out to me that this program is being funded by those Americans making $250,000.00 or more a year with an added 3% tax on these folks ONLY...............so if you are in that bracket you will pay 41% income tax next year and 3% for health care for those who cannot afford it and that is 44% of their income gone to taxes.............that means a bread winner supporting the family on $250,000.00 or more would basically only bring home HALF of what they earn. Looks like the folks in the $100,000.00 and less will actually make more money than the so called "rich" people.

I think socialized medical care is great and EVERYONE should have to pay into it....not just a select income bracket.....otherwise its kind of like welfare.........isn't it.

Those who strive through education and hard work to attain an income where they can support their family and send their kids to college without the help of the government and help with the grandkids too will be motivated to just give up and earn less............why pay HALF of your income in taxes and med taxes for others..........

And those making less will see no motivation to be more successful to the $250,000.00 range because it would cost more for them in taxes and they would take home a lot less money that they earn.

Eventually there will be no moderate middle income...............then where will all that money for health care come from?

Everybody should pay in unless they are true poverty level......

The government should not be seen as a bloody vampire............sucking the American dream dry....................why work if you can only keep half of it?

Debbie....

I know... the government is wooley, soft comforter that we can all hang our hats on. But they are:

"bloody sucking vampires............sucking the American dream dry...................."

But many of your comments were very good.

This health care plan is going to destroy us! For one, those taxes on the rich arent going to cover it all, they'll have to lower it more. also, we are already 1 trillion dollars in debt, why do we want to double it! Finally, the idea to have all small business's provide healthcare for employees will bankrupt small buissness's. if i have overlooked everything, please give me some hope that i will be able to go to collage.

Superdave - Your child did get the care they needed.

You had insurance. Every parent must have insurance for their children. If you can't afford to take care of them, don't have them. Why do some put their children in such difficult situations as to not be able to take care of them. I don't like when people do that to a lowly dog. So I really hate it when people do that to children. (Not you Dave).

So is it so wrong to expect you to pay more? She received $500,000 in care. But now you don't want to pay higher premiums? How greedy can you be?

You are way ahead of what you or her will ever pay back in. The rest of us will have something else denied because the money was already spent on her. That's the way it works (I know it's harsh).

Oh, you could just say: "The rest of you can just pay more."

And I can see how it would work for you, but for you now to complain because her insurance costs more is crazy. She does have a pre existing condition. Life is cruel sometimes that way.

I know, as a parent, you would say: "I'd spend a hundred million on her."

But by your own words, you show that you wouldn't. You're not even willing to pay her higher premiums.

So really, what you are saying is that the rest of us should pay a hundred million for her.

She's probably really cute, and I'm not saying that the care she received was unwarranted, but no insurance or state run medicine is unlimited. There is always a limit. You can't really think this Obama/Democrat plan will cover everything and any expense?

I'm sorry that life dealt her a bad hand. Just 25 years ago she may not have survived. But she is lucky. Lucky to be here and now. Even if that means a higher financial burden.

#1--stop giving healthcare to illegal residents

#2 Get rid of Pelosi

#3 TERM LIMITS

#4 We need a "Third Party" one that has common sense!

Hurry, Hurry, HURRY! Vote on it. quickly, QUICKLY! Don't read it just vote it in. Hurry, some people still have individual rights and are trying to decide for themselves. HUUURRRRYYYYYYY! VOTE IT IN NOW! SOME PEOPLE STILL THINK THIS IS A FREE COUNTRY! SOME PEOPLE STILL HAVE MONEY IN THEIR POCKETS! We have to hurry. People might start to think about the cost of this. HURRY!

At least all the racist liberals will be going to the poor house with me. That does give me some comfort. See ya there!

Yhey going after it the wrong way making it a crime if you do not have heatlh care. sound like Nazism to me So I'm going to be a true Amercian and be a crimmial I Do not want my Gov. interfer with my Health.

Like I posted, "how do you figure it is a GOVERNMENT RUN PROGRAM?" the right wing still can't figure out how is single payer or public option operates. Perhaps people are confusing the SINGLE PAYER program with GOVERNMENT RUN PROGRAM? If you think it is the same thing, then you will need to do more research. Only the Lobbysts, conservatives, GOP, and Democrats with special interests are passing such fear mongering tactics.

The second part of the question was "...what is so bad about government run program?" A few of you pointed out Medicare and Social Security system... Medicare payment to the doctors, most medicare procedures prices are already agreed upon or known. If doctors don't like it, they would not have to accept Medicare patients. Now, if more health patients are mixed into the plan, then the price and cost would be diluted or shared. Now, I don't remember the last time Social Security actually NOT PAYING their check or going bankrupt like that of the corporations in this history. I know you can't say that about insurance reimbursement, and coverages.

Whenever the Democrats are in a huge rush to pass something that isn't even decided yet, it is time to hold on to your wallet, with both hands. I haven't seen this urgency to pass a phony bill since they passed the Economic non-incentive fraud.

John, easy with that kool-aid... some plans don't cover your existing condition or self inflected wounds.

Like hell it is a good start....1100 pages and counting, and knowing our Congress, no one will read this one either. Billions wasted on sidewalks to no where, playgounds, streets paved. If Kennedy has anything to do with this it isnt worth spit. Why the RUSH? Post it on the internet, give a few weeks of debate folks. Do not cram it down our throats. Congress REFUSED to let go of their own PRIVATE health policies. Kennedy exempted them from this bill!!!! They get theirs paid for life at private hospitals. Wake up America.......

The president tells NBC's Dr. Nancy Snyderman that taxpayers can't expect something for nothing.

Can you believe this smug SOB? He wastes $1 trillion in taxpayer money and produces absolutely nothing, yet has the nerve to preach to us about spending money for results.

It's like a bad nightmare. $1 trillion dollars gone and touted as "urgently needed", "an accomplishment", "leadership". Now it is exactly the same BS being repeated, but this time the price tag is $1.5 trillion.

Community organizer elected President of the United States, enough said.

The republican's posted their understanding of the house in a chart. What a convoluted thing. At this post it is still posted on Foxnews.com. There are over 30 agencies and authorities that will govern the administering of your insurance. One will determine if you get a rebate for your private coverage. One will determine how much you are taxed if you are "rich". There is one to determine what acceptable health benefits should be. Theres a reinsurance program - I'm not sure what that is for. They forgot an arrow on the line between employers and consumers. Probably should have two lines. One for consumers getting paid by employers and one with consumers paying employers for services.

Wow, it doesn't cover that fact that employers often pay 50 - 60% of health insurance and the employer collects from you for your part to pay the whole bill.

Is the Clutural & Linguistic Competence Training portion really necessary? Is this out of premiums or is the government paying for this out of taxes from the rich?

Health care providers will have to provide a periodic financial disclosures to an Inspector General of ANY Transfers between providers and Suppliers.

It appears that all funds both private and public go to something called the "Health Insurance Exchange". Why, does my private health insurance go here when mine pays the doctor in 2 - 4 weeks instead of like medicare and medicaid that take 2 - 3 months?

There's an undefined Federal Mandate for Web design. A Phusician Quality Reporting Initiative. There's a Health Choices Administration - THAT DETERMINES BENEFIT LEVELS - but for who?

I thought I'd provide this since most of the contributors haven't seen this on most of the news services.

Disclaimer: The federal government reserves the right to add (another 300 pages of spending at 3:00Am), subtract (political curseword), or modifiy any parts, names of agents and agencies, by any part of the Senate, senate/house conference committee, acutual burecratic policy writers who interpretation of the final bill may not actually correctly apply any provisions in the bill.

Does anyone know where there is a small, ungoverned, life sustaining Island I can move to?

Buttcob,

I have read more thoughtful insight, more workable ieas, more dead-on analysis of the real causes of the health care issues on these posts than from decades of debate in Congress. Does that tell us anything about the incompetence of our leaders, who seldom lead, except in their efforts to promote their own self interests.

This scewball health care plan is like trying to keep a boat from sinking by drying up the ocean. Your mindless support of this hair brained plan is a sad commentary on the state of intelligence in this country.

You're dreaming. This will cost taxpayers over $300 billion dollars a year and the cost cannot and should not be borne on the shoulders of the wealthy. We will all pay dearly for this as will our children and their children. Ask yourself...does the federal government manage ANYTHING properly and how will they do with health insurance? This is a runaway train and Obama is at the controls. Congress is out of control, Obama is out of control and 2012 is just around the corner with the opportunity to get some of these bums out of office.

ya Im 42 4 kid and a wife and i cant get or afford and kind of insurance make to much for state help and not enought to pay for it either

This is a great first step? You must be a far left liberal that wants the Gov to control you and everyone else. This is a scam the will cost more than its worth and your health care will get worse and worse. Us some common sense and see all the New Gov agencys this will start. This is just another of Obamas plans to control the people.

Something new please - If the Gov't is going to force people to pay for insurance, then why not force them to pay their medical bills?

That is impossible for millions of Americans. Health care does not conform to market forces. You can't charge more and get less people to purchase life saving treatment. It just doesn't work that way.

please, please tell me when people will figure out this Insurance will only cover basic coverage.

Name one time the Administration has mentioned Specialists or Overall coverage without ramifications?

Everyone busts out their sad story of their personal need to have "coverage" and not once has the Government responded about special treatment. Yet still no one asks.

We are so low on WHO because of BASIC COVERAGE, not because we do not treat special diseases or deny treatments.

I love the fact that people are banking they will immediately get coverage when even the Administration admits 20 million will slip between the cracks. Even find it more amazing that people will suddenly be able to see Specialists.

They are cutting Medicare, a program that every working American pays into at a flat rate to pay for this. Basically 43 years of useless payment that was taken out of evry worker's paycheck.

Now how much is Medicaid being cut by?

A program paid by pure taxation.

So basically we are going to sacrifice Social Security and Medicare (two programs paid by a flat rate) and not reform nor change Medicaid that is supported by taxation?

Hrm, how much money did the people utilizing medicaid put in?

Yet we can screw over the elderly over Medicare?

Nothing but a Ponzi scheme.

Can our government run anything? YES, here are some quick samples;

• GOP and the conservatives cheered when Bush/Chaney's army over run Middle East the past 8 years.
• Social Security checks has always been delivered.
• Medicare covered all the elderly and disabled that private health insurance refuse to cover (even the most basic services).

Here is another quick note, why has healthcare coverage gone up annually between 6 to 13% annually, while medicare gone up at a rate near 3%? WHO IS PULLING WHOSE LEG.

Finally, Medicare program is not an insurance program. It is purely an expenditure with the highest possible cost, because the users are the elderly, the poor and the disable. There isn't any healthy population to help spread out the risk and the pool. That is why the private health insurance is fighting so hard. They don't want to share the pool of Americans who use very little health coverage.

I'm hopeful too! Hopeful that Obama care including the "government option" which is nothing more than Socialized medicine in disguise--will fail to pass.

If they wait until after the August break when the Senators and Congressmen have to meet with folks in their districts and face the growing anger over this plan, Obamacare will die the same death as Hillarycare did before. Get it legislators!!! Americans do NOT want Socialized Medicine in any of its carefully phrased versions. Stay out of my body and my choices made with my Dr. No rationing. No using older and worse medicines because they are cheaper and no fines for people who want to pay for better care! Leave us Alone! American Health care is the best on earth.

I am hopeful to Obama! Hopeful that you will fail to turn us into the Union of Soviet America!

Wow, there sure are lots of insurance company lobbyists out there.

Great first step? The great first step is NOT to have government run healthcare. What makes you think the government will do nothing but screw this up. What they need to do is control costs and make it mandatory for everyone to buy heath insurance when they are healthy, not wait until they get sick and say: "Hey, I have cancer and I can't get health insurance!"

What the government needs to do is FIRST FIX MEDICARE. Secondly, they need to FIX SOCIAL SECURITY. Both programs, from what I hear, are in trouble. Those are two fine examples of why we should not have government-sponsored healthcare. Nothing the government does is done efficently. NOTHING! Think about it. If you want government healthcare, move to Canada. Let us know if you like it.

Oh, and how much did he pay those nurses to stand there.

As a physician who has recently finished training I have seen how things work in both public and private hospitals. We provide excellent health care to those we treat in the VA system, but the productivity is severely limited due to the government bureaucracy and lack of incentive for productivity. I have also seen that quality healthcare in this setting can happen, but it is certainly not the norm. It is also scary to think about facing a 66.67% reimbursement cut modeled after Medicare combined with an increase in taxes for many of us facing hundreds of thousands of dollars in unpaid student loans while the cost of operating due to practicing defensive medicine remains largely unchecked.

Does Obama really believe that those of us who have been in school for 11+ years will continue to treat patient under these conditions? I do love my job and the ability to make a difference in patients' lives, but there does come a point where the benefit to risk ratio is too small to warrant continuing in what used to be a wonderful profession.

The reason that we have been able to continue this long is that private insurance has been able to bridge the reimbursement gap to allow us to treat Medicare patients without being concerned about the bottom line.

We physicians did not get to be where we are because we were incapable or unwilling to work for something that we want. Many of us may consider it worthwhile to pursue other careers that we thought would also be fulfilling, thus leaving a relative shortage of doctors to shoulder the workload.

Really Barack? Really? A physician shortage does not concern you?

My guess is that you have not even considered this.

Can our government run anything? YES, here are some quick samples;

• GOP and the conservatives cheered when Bush/Chaney's army over run Middle East the past 8 years.
• Social Security checks has always been delivered.
• Medicare covered all the elderly and disabled that private health insurance refuse to cover (even the most basic services).

Here is another quick note, why has healthcare coverage gone up annually between 6 to 13% annually, while medicare gone up at a rate near 3%? WHO IS PULLING WHOSE LEG.

Finally, Medicare program is not an insurance program. It is purely an expenditure with the highest possible cost, because the users are the elderly, the poor and the disable. There isn't any healthy population to help spread out the risk and the pool. That is why the private health insurance is fighting so hard. They don't want to share the pool of Americans who use very little health coverage.

Please go look up the expiration dates of everything you posted.

Social Security and Medicare will be Bankrupt by 2017 according to GAO. You know that organization that determines costs after the CBO.

thturd, amazes me how you were able to get Bush into this when he has absolutely nothing to do with this "health care" reform.

But must be his fault.

Anyways. Medicare and Social Security are hard payments made by a generation and now Medicare will be cut and those that put into SS are screwed, so those with Medicaid can get theiur's.

Make a lot of sense.

I would sell you a whorehouse in Nevada about this one, but the Government allready mismanaged that one.

ah it's just one and a half trillion!

Health Care is not a right, it is part and parcel of personal responsibility.

Medicare and Medicaid are a major factor in driving costs up. We are expanding these programs and renaming them.

We need real healthcare reform. The insurance companies are going to get the biggest benefit from this plan.

Health Care is not a right, it is part and parcel of personal responsibility

Not that there is anything wrong with rights, if you fine people for not having coverage it is misworded. A fine means that it is an obligation not a right as in you are obligated to have coverage. We already know that not everyone will be covered simply because there is a fine. What we also dont know is the cost of the subsidy will be to those who accept coverage because the fines are being used to subsidy, sort of Catch 22. Mass. got their numbers wrong and people play the system, dropping coverage when it suits them, paying the fine and then taking up coverage when they need it. So if god forbid everyone actually did take the coverage and was subsidized the governments projections on what the fines would be to cover same would go down the tubes in a jiffy. One complicated plan with iffy projections.

Address tort reform first, health care costs will decrease.

Since "the tab" is to be picked up by business ("medical providers and employers") - and all taxes and fees charged to business are passed on to consumers (the cost of doing business. To think otherwise is ignorant) - We, the People will be paying the tab. Since this is bound to be handled through government bureacracies, that means thru taxes. As the "rich" are People, that would imply that EVERYONE is then "picking up the tab".

These idiots think WE are idiots. Too bad we are relentlessly proving them right.

I know when I've had to go to the ER, they won't even admit me till they have my life history to make damn sure they get their money out of me. But you see illegals and Medicaiders go straight in. I'm paying for them so they won't have to, and so the hospital can pay it's employees now. My father had a stroke that ended up killing him, but they made damn sure not to get him in till they had his insurance card.

These people are LAREADY getting free medical care, it's called MEDICAID. Are they going to have to start paying? I doubt it. We're going to tax (even more) the people who do work more to pay for it. This is lunacy.

If you have breathing difficulties, can't swallow, or faint, you go right in. I know, when I couldn't swallow, I barerly had written my name, address and that I couldn't swallow before I ran to the bathroom in the ER waiting to vomit the saliva built up in my throat. Security came immediately to the restroom and escorted me directly to the triaz unit. There were a lot of unhappy faces in the waiting room from people there before me. They treat any life threatening condition immediately.

When I entered the ER and wrote "chest pain" on the sign-in; I found myself getting hooked up to monitors with three nurses in attendance - before anyone knew my name.

While health CARE cannot be denied, too many people know this and use the ER as their "doctor". I have no problem with seeing the unhappy faces of people who are not truly ill enough to require ER services - just because having 'their own doctor' would require payment (either directly for service, or for insurance premiums).

There are quite a lot that DO have insurance - but it requires a co-pay, or that they pay 20% - that use the ER because THAT is covered 100%.

I keep hearing Obama say there is "no free lunch." BUT, not one word about the waste in Washington. The over spending by his own administration. Always back to "the American people need to understand." "The American people need to tighten their belts." "The American people need to make sacrifices." Nothing about how cutting back on the budget and stimulus spending could provide all the money he needs for this health-care-at-gun-point program. I wonder how much money could be saved if Obama would sacrifice just ONE "Wednesday Party Night" a month. My guess would be tens of thousands of dollars.

Yesterday, my wife came home from work with some disappointing news. The owner of the business where she works had a meeting with his accountant who told him he had two choices if he wanted to stay above water:

1. Lay off 10 people right now or

2. Cut everone's pay by 20%

He felt bad and decided he couldn't do either of those things but knew he had to cut costs somewhere. So he type up a memo and sent it to all the employees notifying them he was cutting everyone's pay by 10%. Some people got mad. Some even quit on the spot. From what my wife said, he tried to explain that if he didn't, no one would have a job. Including him. Now Obama wants to tax this business (and me) more through Cap and Trade and force Government mandated health care on all the emplyees. I assume she'll be out of work before the end of the year.

My business has dropped an average of 50% this year. We are struggling, but her parents help out so we haven't lost our house. Yet. Something bad is on the horizon. Not just for me but for all of us. I have always felt very priveledged that I was born in America. I have always looked at the other nations of the world and felt secure that my way of life was never in jeopardy. I now no longer feel that way. My way of life is slowing being pulled out from under me and there's nothing I can do to stop it.

I'm genuinely scared. I wish Obama would stop doing these things. I really wish he would.

The government cannot give you anything they didn't take from you first and they will keep a big chunk for "administration" before they give it back. Why not just keep the money in the first place and buy a good insurance plan?

Congressional Budget Office Report on Health Insurance:

...."Act, which was released today by several House committees. Among other things, those provisions would establish a mandate for most legal residents to obtain insurance"

For those who believe in the government is not forcing this on us.

I understand your pain Colonel. We're right there with you... but with almost a 90% drop in business and no end in sight and no jobs that will make the grade.

Social Security and Medicare will be Bankrupt by 2017 according to GAO.

Absolutely agree. On the other hand, it is like a business expenditure that is properly budgeted. Like all budgets, they run out due to a variety of reasons such as standard of living and/or others that GAO lists. On the other hand the private healthcare is inflating at a much higher rate, greater than that of standard of living and greater than that of population growth can sustain. Being nice with healthcare inflationary rate of approximately 12%, our healthcare cost up 50% in less than 4 years and nearly DOUBLE in 6 year. That means by 2015, you and your employer will be paying approximately 100% (or DOUBLE) of what you and your employer now. This is long before the 2017. The employer is already screaming about employee health benefit coverage. How long do you think your employers will continue providing benefits when they have pay TWICE AS much by 20015... Please think ahead.

amazes me how you were able to get Bush into this when he has absolutely nothing to do with this "health care" reform

The argument is made to point out things that American government run well versus private sector. Does the right and the conservative with people using the Bush and Chaney names. Or are you simply too jumpy? or simply looking for a fight?

Or are you simply too jumpy? or simply looking for a fight?

How does one "fight" on a keyboard?:)

I want to put $ into more perspective for people;

• 2009, 18 years old on private healthcare => $200, family => $600
• 2013, 18 year old on private healthcare => $314.70, family => $944.11
• 2015, 18 year old on private healthcare => $394.76, family => $1,184.29

$1,184 sounds like rent or mortgage!!!!! not health insurance!!!! Also, remember, you are aging and moving out of healthier/profitable coverage range, and the calculation did not account for the fact that you, your spouse, and kids would be 6 years older. Example would be if you start at 35 years old, then you need to consider age 41 as final age. There is minimum 20-30% increase due to higher age bracket to be considered. If you're moving into 50 years old range, then the increase will be significantly higher.

THIS IS WHAT THE RIGHT THE CONSERVATIVES DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW, because they know you can be so easily distracted by a simple stereotypical catch phrases and labels.

"fight on a keyboard" = senseless pounding on a keyboard

:-)

THIS IS WHAT THE RIGHT THE CONSERVATIVES DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW, because they know you can be so easily distracted by a simple stereotypical catch phrases and labels.

Ok lets leave out the labels here, yes healthcare costs are going up faster than inflation. It wont matter what bill they pass, healthcare costs ( not just health insurance costs) will still go up year after year. Everyone has an idea of where the "fat" is, malpractice suits, med school costs, greedy drug companies, medical supply companies, for profit insurance companies, not for profit insurance companies, private hospital, not for profit insurance companies. We are dealing with something that affects your body, Americans want the latest machines, and true not everybody has access to the latest procedures or tests etc. First step is to get everyone covered whether they like it or not. I lived overseas, you had no card, no service. Building a new public option which is really stealing "cost savings" from Medicare is just gutting one program to build another. You regulate what we have, limit profits, make them take everyone regardless of conditions, subsidize those who cant afford it and that is cheaper than starting another public company for the purpose of keeping what we have "honest".

Then some Czar can decide what is cost effective or not, and tell you that that new cancer cure isnt effective for you. Sounds good when its someone you dont know, differeent story when its you or your loved ones. Pretty simple playing god isnt it?

"Czar," I thought you wanted to leave labels out of the debate? I believe here are the facts;

• USA is one of the most expensive healthcare per capita in the world.
• USA is not ranked near the the top as the best healthcare provider in the world.
• USA contributes the most in healthcare in the world.
• USA is the one of the largest importer of nurses in the world.
• USA private healthcare cost is increasing faster than any other industrial nation.
• USA private healthcare cost is rising at a significant higher rate than government's medicare rate of increase.
• USA private healthcare cost for a family with kids will be greater than that of average mortgage or rent by 2018.
• 60+% of Americans will be force to get personal healthcare insurance by 2020, because employers will no longer afford it.
• Uninsured adults and children are on the rise (related to economy)
• Practioners are concern with patients not returning to continue with care, coming in with far too advance health issues, and not taking preventative care.
• Productitive per USA worker may become a problem is health becomes an issue.
• Coverage denials, treatment denials, and retroactive policy cancellations are on the rise with private healthcare providers,
• Nearly 30% of the younger adults will forgoe health insurance, because of cost.
• ER and other emergency facilities will be over burdened by uninsured such that the department will be cut.
• General practioners will become even more scarce due to difference in pay and insurance cost. Rurual communities will no longer be able to maintain healthcare practioners.

These are immediate problems and issues that we need to contend with. Healthcare organizations has recorded their largest earnings for the past 10+ years. Executives and investors of these healthcare organizations have been handsomely rewarded. However did American healthcare improved these past 10+ years? I think not. USA use to rank as the #1 in healthcare.

We need to be honest and ask ourselves why. Diversions such as Illegals, litigations... are contributing factors. However to use them as diversionary tactic so that they are used as the major reasons. Please, Don't take us as fools. The illegals population rate has not been increasing. The medical litigation cases has not increase by the same rate as the healthcare cost. So why the smoke and the protection for this particular industry?

This is where the healthcare corporations has become extremely politically savvy over the past 15+ years. GOP and conservatives are all about competitions in the market place. So why are they putting such a fight against have a PUBLIC OPTION on the block? If the government is so bad at running things, why the worry? According to the GOP and the conservatives, it will surely fail, because the corporation will always come out with a better plan... Well the government is going to level the playing field, because we, the tax payers, should not be picking up the healthcare tabs.

If the government is so bad at running things, why the worry?

First of all Czar is not a label, it is used by the government to describe a job, notice I ddint say a conservative or liberal czar

The public option has unlimited funds (yours) which can undercut the competiotion at a loss until the competition is out of business and competitors are out of business announce that they "misread" real costs and move rates back up, in business thats called a monopoly and would be against the law. Soon after Medicare came into being and one was told they had a choice, private companies left the field. Scary part of the public option is after they are the only players, they discover that more taxes are needed and rates have to go up higher or they wind up just like Medicare, going broke. Some of the funds to run public option will come from "cost savings" newly discovered in the basement of the Medicare building which is robbing peter to pay paul. But since most Americans are under 65 they wont care when Medicare benefits are gutted.

How did private healthcare companies run medicare type program? Let us see. With Bush, our Medicare gave up RX program negotiation rights. Now the seniors will have to get private Supplemental D to receive better RX coverage. GUESS WHAT, suddenly most of the private healthcare removed their multi-tiered RX program, and made it one signle plan at around $59-$75. A jump of 40% to 120%. Is this what you mean by fair competition.

Give me a break about the private sector being run out of this sector. The private sector simply make better profit relying on a different population. If there is money, and the private sector can do better, they will move in. This has been shown in almost every sector of the industries.

No, I don't buy you explaination about competition. You can't have it both ways. Claiming that government can't run things, and then worry about government will become a monopoly. PUBLIC OPTION and SINGLE PAYER does not rule out private healthcare competition. If the government back plan does not provide the qualty service that people are use to, then they will switch to other options. THIS IS WHAT COMPITITON IS ALL ABOUT. However it is unfair when the tax payer is asked to subsidize the healthcare industy by taking in all of the elderly, the poor, and the disable people so that the health sector is left for the private corporation to leech off of. At least I am sick and tired of using my taxpayer money to fund these corporations (that contribute enormously to the lobbysts and politicians), so that these loopholes are left open.

If the government back plan does not provide the qualty service that people are use to, then they will switch to other options. THIS IS WHAT COMPITITON IS ALL ABOUT. However it is unfair when the tax payer is asked to subsidize the healthcare industy

Did you actually read page 16 of the House bill which clearly states that after the bill becomes law no new private coverage can be issued. So if you lose your job you can only buy public coverage. period Thats competition?

page 16

Yes, it was also very clear that there are many opposing statements within the House proposal that is being floated.  Several members agreed that it will be cleared up.  Did that not make it into your updates?

You early statement of public option has unlimited funds from the tax payers also inaccurate.  There is a limit.  If there isn't why is there a deficit?  Why is state government such as CA going broke?  Why did cities file for BK?  It is important to deal with the problem now before it becomes too big.

I hear you complaing about things here and there.  However, I don't see you or any others providing rationsal suggestions to solving the uping coming heath crisis that a person/family will be facing in the comming years;

You early statement of public option has unlimited funds from the tax payers also inaccurate. There is a limit. If there isn't why is there a deficit? Why is state government such as CA going broke? Why did cities file for BK? It is important to deal with the problem now before it becomes too big.

Exactly why we have a deficit, since the government acts like there are unlimited funds. Why is the state broke? Cause they cant print money like the Federal govt and the voters in CA by a 60pct majority voted against raising taxes to cut the deficit. We do have IOUs which the large banks are not accepting anymore. The system in Mass is failing since they to cannot print money, so they dont have unlimited funds.

As far as me not having suggestions, visit my page lampell.newsvine.com and read the various articles I have written re healthcare reform.

Thanks

Federal Govt does not print money. Even if our govt can print money, there would not be unlimited funds. The valuation of a USD is also tied into the system. So we all know that printing money is not the solution (long ago). What is interesting is that the GOP, conservatives and the liberatians are continually holding on and spreading the myth that Democrats, Liberals, Socialists, and Communists will do that.

I believe public (or certain people) have access to know the amount of USD is being circulated into monteary system. From those number many economist can calucation currency valuation.

Federal Govt does not print money. Even if our govt can print money, there would not be unlimited funds

Yes it is easy to look up the various components of money supply, due to the trillions lost on houses and the stock market, banks, brokers some of that simply disappeard. As an ex stock broker we used to look at those figures all the time, especailly during the Carter administration when the prime rate hit 21 pct. The Fed is indeed licensed by the U.S. Tsy to print money, which is how we get massive deficits, along with borrowing with T Bonds. Lately the Fed has printed money to buy those very same T Bonds in an effort to show that T Bond sales are doing well. That is what we call a Ponzi scheme.

I am not right, left wing, I am in the fuesalage along with the rest of the passengers:)

No, Ponzi scheme is something completely different. The method used to shoring up the bond and securities market is not a ponzi scheme. It is still a more Republican or Supply side economics method (even Kensian) method of economic solution. So please don't pin this solution as a Liberal solution. On the other hand, I would reason that this may be one of the more viable solution for now.

As for you excellent airplane analogy, of course we are in the fuselage versus right/left wing. One still have to remember that the vehicle is still controlled through the controls in the the fuselage. NO one venture out to the wing to establish leadership. That is where people view as radicalism, as people view through peep holes/windows. No, our airplane has been going nowhere by making right handed turns for far too long. We have lost our compass long ago. I am not certain if our LEADERS have enough fortitude to bank in the opposite position to straighten out the vehicle. Holding the position may or may not get us to the right direction...

This new right is infringing on my rights to keep and spend my money the way I want. I will be taxed on my current health care so that someone else can use my money and resources. It's infuriating.

Did you absorb what this article said. Some of it is disinformation. The 1.5 trillion was from "A HOUSE AIDE" who "SPOKE ON CONDITION OF ANONYMITY". When reporters start talking like that I get very skeptical!!! This is not an objective reporter but a preacher of doom and gloom. Don't believe all you hear in the news, you must do research to know a real version of the truth.

Please everybody go to pbs.org and look at Bill Moyers objective piece on health care reform "profit over people". It is under the featured videos section (ambulance icon) and is very enlightening. It is a must see about DISINFORMATION by insurance companies.

Mr. Rogers...lack of coverage IS one of the main problems...insurance companies routinely deny coverage to people such as my wife who had a small tumor removed 7 years ago. Her doctor considers her cured, she past the 5 year span, yet private insurance won't cover her. Insurance reform needs to address the millions of people like my wife who had a medical issue in the past but who are now perfectly healthy.

I wish some republicans would join the blue dog and other conservative-ish democrats to forge a moderate proposal that extends coverage, changes the rules the insurance companies live under to take the insurance company beaurocrats out of the doctor-patient relationship, reform malpractice law, etc...

But the republican leadership has apparently decided that they want to push reform to the liberal lefties, hoping they'll pass something close to socialized medicine which will prove to be unpopular, and eventually lead the republicans back to power. The party of NO honor.

China will call the loans very soon as an added trillion will devalue the dollar to a ridiculous number. Guess what happens next, foreign speculators will use the weak dollars to run up crude, among other terrible things. He is purposely destroying our country, I have no doubt anymore.

Knight,

Since when is disinformation not coming from every house aide and the democrat congress members when it comes to spending our money? Whenever they have said a program will cost X, then it comes in at 2X or 3X. And Bill Moyers??????? Now there is a guy that has no libereral bent - uh, wait a minute, Bill Moyers, Bill Moyers? Oh yeah, Bill Moyers - actually he is bent about as far left as one can go without being a polit bureau member.

Think about your car insurance for a minute...this is how health care should be. There if you need it. What healthcoverage is now equates to your car insurance paying for fillups, oil changes, wiper blades etc. It is crystal clear why costs have skyrocketed. There isn't one person from sea to shining sea that can't walk into any hospital and receive care. They can't refuse you by law. These cited #'s are another entitlement for dem voters, period.

Knight

"It would have to operate more efficiently, as does the Medicare program." - Bill Moyers

If he thinks medicare is efficiently run, then he has no idea about what hes talking about

Have a voice, think outside the box for once. This is about people being able to help themselves, not about money! We've made it through previous "deficits" and I believe we'll make it through this one. We can always revamp, restructure and work with a Healthcare system, kinda hard to revamp, restructure and work with a dead person, dead due to lack of healthcare.

What's really funny is how double-sided the Democrats are. Think about it...they want to call healthcare a right, which, while debatable, is fine. So if healthcare is a right and we are a country of equal rights for all then the equal right of healthcare means equal cost and equal benefit and yet they're putting the weight of the cost on the affluent and business owners rather than everyone having a equal share. It's hilarious how clueless Congress is and what's more hilarious is that we keep electing the same morons to office!

LEAVE MY DAMN HEALTH CARE ALONE! This gov't run by the liberals is not even a joke anymore. It is a disgrace. To all of you liberals out there who think this President and this democratic congress are changing things for the better, you are dead wrong. They could care less about you or any of us. Our country is being destroyed before our very eyes and all you can do is sit there and chant "Yes we can". Wake up and get your act together, if this goes on much longer there will be nothing we can do. With every dollar that they are carelessly spending we get closer to the abyss. How can you even be encouraged by what they are telling you? It's your money they are spending so wrecklessly. Most people are smart enough to realize that you just can't keep spending all the time without consequences. I am so disgusted at these politicians, but even more so at all of you who continue to chher them on.

rightron - sorry, but people all over the country get turned away by hospitals if they can't pay. It's been going on for years... where have you been? It may not be legal, but it's done, constantly. What about those people that need to be on a transplant list?? They're denied any help because they don't have the money and/or connections to get there.. remember Steve Jobs?? How convenient he rec'd his transplant, and so fast!

Healthcare is all about money and how you can pay. You can't pay, you don't get treated, and when you do, the care is sub-standard. I've been thru it many times myself and with my daughter.

As far as Moyers thinking the medicaid system runs efficiently - OMG!! Get a clue! I unfortunately have my daughter on medicaid because I can't afford insurance; one trip to the doc all I wanted was an xray to make sure she hadn't fractured her ankle, and the doc rattled off some strange foot condition that made no sense - I called him on it asking how that could be possible, so instead of listening, he got pissed and referred me to a "specialist", and told me flat out he knew wasn't on my insurance, just so I could get an xray... of which he had his own machine right there in his office, but he refused because I wouldn't accept his diagnosis.

Her ankle was hurting from tae kwon do training, and he said she had some kind of achilles tendon problem, although she had no pain in that area - ever. Now there's a good doctor, eh? Rather than give me the xray, he gets pissed because he's called on a bad diagnosis so he tries to make me pay more on purpose.. matter of fact, I'm still waiting for the ins company to give me the name of a specialist that they cover so I can get the xray... that was over 6 months ago. Needless to say my daughter is fine, but still... efficient? I think not.

This health care is a joke!! It is nothing more than a government welfare program, which by the way we are all going to pay for. I have medical coverage thru my retirement plan, which is good, and I paid for by working for the state of California for many years. Health care coverage is not a right, it's a privilege. I don't want health coverage like England, France or Canada or any other Socialist country. If this country wanted to be socialist we would have never adopted the Consititution. This whole thing just pisses me off, and this President and Congress are going to push this Bill down our throats and say Screw You Tax Payers.

Companies will quit supplying healthcare before long because their employees won't feel it's a benefit at all. It will be considered a bad thing for companies to pay employees healthcare and cut out completely. Then Obama won't be able to tax anyone's healthcare benefits to pay for the one uninsured before because we'll all be in that group.

You're right Ann. Unfortunately, more than half the people in this country voted for this. You know what that tells me? It tells me that there are more nonproductive free loaaders here now than people who want to work to pay fro them to sit on their porch and drink beer and fornicate all day.

I don't know why it has to be so difficult. The dems and repubs running the country are either completely retarded or don't really want to fix the problems the USA is facing. Just analyze the Canadian and German health care systems and find out how they can be best applied to the US system.

Lmasure- EMTALA laws prevent this type of care. You should hire an attorney if you haven't already.

Also, choices we make have consequences. You have funding for tae kwan do but can't purchase insurance? I realized early on in life that sometimes you have to make tough choices. If people would be more responsible for their own lives we wouldn't need barrycare. Sometimes the truth stings a little.

Diamondduq - if it is a right, we can assume that our Congress and their families and their union brothers will also be blessed by our government insurance plan/debacle?? Or will they??

Exactly! I see my own friends who are younger, buying cell phones and $40,000 cars but god forbid they have to buy health insurance. Life is about choices and it shouldn't be my responsibility or anybody elses if you make the wrong ones.

PS about 10 - 12 million of the uninsured are illegal. Probably more

It's more....Pelosi wants them all covered by American health care, no taxes, free food stamps, free medical, and then take the high speed train to Vegas and gamble it away?

Your congress only has to spend 6 years in office, basically 1 1/2 terms in order to get the same benefits that a 30 year veteran gets in health care, none of the risk of getting shot or killed in battle, but they don't have to use the same health care system that veterans use. Many veterans prefer going to a veterarian than go to the VA for health care. The wait can be up to 6 months if you've been diagnosed with cancer of any kind, which is a way of saying, ~~~~ you?

They are in such a rush to pass this, they obviously don't want us to know what is in it. They obviously don't want a lot of their members to know what is in it. They have not been in this big a rush since they passed the phony economic non-incentive bill. The leadership should all be thrown out of office.

The private hospitals in most states have to stabilize them, then ship/send them to a public or not for profit hospital, for further treatment.

knight-403465; disinformation comes in many forms - even thru Bill Moyers.

The numbers put out by the "anonymous aide" (which is bull****; there is too much "anonymous aide" "leaking" out of this administration for it to be incidental) have been bandied about by official sources, too.

The "other" numbers have the increase in insurance (note: NOT care) will still leave 32 of the 46 million as uninsured. This entire farce is about coverage, not care. CARE cannot - legally - be denied. CARE is not at issue. All this "health care" prattle is smokescreen. The reality of placing payment for services into government hands (which is all this is about) is to slow the entire process. Insurance companies may be slow, but if they want business, they need to prove themselves worthy of your premium payments - somehow.

Government has no such concern.

Ultimately - given that their income becomes increasingly less and harder to get - many doctors will "retire" earlier (to do something profitable) and new doctors will see less and less incentive to continue - while more college grads will be looking elsewhere for their future.

NOW, we're getting into poor health care - fortunately, everyone's covered

Have a voice;

Funny thing about "rights" - at least in our Constitution - they either are, or aren't. Government - under our Constitution - has no actual jurisdiction. They do not confer, nor can they deny - though they can take, if we aren't paying attention (that would be our fault).

Access to good health care is a right - and one we currently enjoy (you don't have to ask permission - though you are obligated to pay for services. Getting authorization from insurance is for payment, not permission). Forcing someone else (anyone else) to pay for it is not a right. FREE health care is not a right.

In fact; forcing anything, for any reason is not a right - don't care who is doing it - and FREE anything - and most especially if it is at someone else's expense - is not a right.

No one in these United States is entitled to anything beyond recognition of their rights, by government (which ain't happenin'), to anything involving THEIR pursuit of Life, Liberty, and Happiness, - as long as we harm or force no one else - and recognize other People's right to the same.

Anything else is just bribery for votes, or abuse of YOUR rights so someone else feels good.

1.666 Million each for those with calculator without enough zeroes

Is there a cash option? I'll take the cash....

So why are the republicans silent, other than sniping and griping from the sidelines. where's the republican proposal?? Why aren't they trying to find a compromise with blue dog and other less-than-liberal democrats??

Is the republican leadership squashing the attempt at compromise by less-than-right wing republicans, hoping the lilbs will pass something resembling socialized medicine, so that repubs will have a weapon in the next few campaigns?? Is this just about republicans wanting to reclaiming power?? If a bipartisan compromise were reached on health care, it would make Obama look like a good leader which would damage republican chances in 2012. The republican strategy is to throw the monkey wrench and bring down the machine so that they will be able to crawl out of the wreckage.

Pure political schemery. Screw the country. Party first!!

joe mota

Who knows. Both parties are mostly incompetent except a few rare gems out of the group.

I am on my side and the side of my children. This is a BAD way to go.

Do you really understand what you are saying? Just a jot of reality. The democrats have control of the house, senate and the white house. They set the agenda. They control the progression of legislation. They decide which bill goes to the floor and which is tabled for later discussion. Do you really think the democrats are going to allow any republican measure to be offered up to the public. Get your head out of the party's southern orifice and use your head for somethng other than a talking plank for the party.

Joe,

The republicans have particiapated in committees on every issue before the legislature. They have presented plans and made amendments. The democratic committee leaders squash amendments and plans and the media does not present the republican plans. Pelosi and Reed set agendas that exclude the republican efforts. So, if you want to know why the republicans have not done much - it is because the democrats are wielding their power to exclude them and the media are acting in the deomcrat's behalf.

Joe mota,

Reed and Princess Pelosi refuse to even put Republican amendments on the floor for a vote. They are railroading everything they can thru as quick as they can before any of this legislation can even be read. That's democracy in action? I think not.

textvir...I agree that, whichever party is in control, the committee leaders tend to squash proposals by the opposition. repubs do it dems when they're in control, and vice versa. part of our political dysfunction. My question is why don't the republicans reach out to blue dog (less-than-liberal) democrats, come up with a bipartisan plan and then get on the airways explaining why the bipartisan plan is better?? Instead, all you hear from the republican leadership is a bunch of hype and half-truths. They're essentially giving up and letting the libs have their way.

I suspect the party leadership has told them to stay on the sidelines and let the libs pass socialized medicine, so they'll have a campaign issue. Pure gutless politics. No compromise = bad policy. What a country!

Goodking

"1.666 MIllion for those with calculators with enough zeroes"

guess your calculator has enough zeroes and you are either not smart enough to read them or you are a Republican.....

try 1.666 MIllion times 9 Million (the erroneous number your fellow repub came up with) and get back to us to see if that equals 1.5 Trillion......

Then take your "mr wizard calculator" and divide 1. 5 trillion by 48 million as Mr Jackson challenged - see what that equals and then divide by 10 years.....for a yearly cost - let's see how close you get to 1.666 million....

Did you complain earlier in this decade when the Republicans did the EXACT SAME THING to the Democrats.

America is a COUNTRY, not a territory to be divied up between 2 outlaw gangs. Or at least it used to be.

Personally, I refuse to join the Republican (CRIPS) or the Demoratic (BLOODS)!!!

Resbot...you are totally right. the vast bulk of the debate we're having has all the relevance of whether you like the Yankees or the Red Rox. Yankee fans hate the Red Sox and make up more reasons to hate them. Red Sox fans do the same. It's that way with most of the liberals vs. conservatives. Just a bunch partisan hype. The rhetoric is mostly predictable along party lines.

1.666 MILLION ???? My family could buy it's own HOSPITAL !!

The sad part about all of this is that nobody is pointing out WHO is going to pay these costs, which doctors and hospitals will be forced to take on the indigent patients, and by what means they are going to be reimbursed. Medicare alone has bankrupt many retirement communities and homes, along with the doctors and hospitals that prescribe the services. The hospital or doctor sends in a bill for $700 and they get paid $135 by Medicare and are supposed to eat the rest themselves or overcharge patients who may not have insurance but are able to afford a standard doctor's visit.

Of course, if everything follows, the left wing Democrats aren't even going to read the bills they are voting for, will pass them, and you will have the worst scenario of socialized medicine you've ever seen.

I'm not a Democrat nor a Republican but the defiant bully attitude I saw on TV the other night, about how Hussein Obama, boasted that you ARE going to have this new health care system, whether you like it or not because you don't have enough votes to stop it, really grits my knickers. Ask almost any veteran what they think of the VA system? Or some of the HMO's who make you wait for a month to see a doctor and you may not see the same one twice? Or that Medicare in their efforts to control costs are now refusing to fill prescriptions for PM, and in fact you must first be diagnosed with the "full blown Disease" before they will pay for the prescription. Many seniors will NOT be getting their medicine because they cannot afford the prescription or the medicine. If you somehow contract something life threatening, they would prefer you die, than spend another dime on you, after you've worked and contributed to the system for over 40-50 years. Great reward...we return to savage thinking. The savages at one time, when you were too old to work, would shove you into the forest, so the Wolves could eat you. Now they're digging up graves and re-selling them in Chicago? What next? Solvent Green?

Irish,

it was Soylent Green, as in soybean-lentil, and it was fortified with ground up humans.

by bailing out on health care reform, the moderate republicans are handing it over to the lefties...I think this is RNC strategy, hoping that reform will be such a collosal failure that we vote the dems out. Thanks RNC, pray for failure and misery in the hope that you'll regain power.

Resbot...you are totally right. the vast bulk of the debate we're having has all the relevance of whether you like the Yankees or the Red Rox. Yankee fans hate the Red Sox and make up more reasons to hate them. Red Sox fans do the same. It's that way with most of the liberals vs. conservatives. Just a bunch partisan hype. The rhetoric is mostly predictable along party lines

You have posted several times that you are for this for yourself and your wife. So please STFU.

You are as Greedy as any CEO and are unworthy to comment on anything with your personal greed.

I hope you and your wife have a great life, since like the greedy "CEO's" your personal greed is worth more than others.

You hypocritical piece of...

joe mota;

What 'Republican proposal'?? How about "nothing"?? Or better yet - cut back on the current government funding (which already accounts for over half the health "industry") to only those who have contributed?

You sound as if it matters not WHO gets the rest of us to pay - with government holding the purse - as long as there is some sort of government-controlled system of payment that provides "free" healthcare.

Weird

BTW, Resbot,

We are NOT a "country" - we are republic of "Free and Independent States" joined by contract (our Constitution).

At least that's how we were built, 250 years ago. The failure of the Second Revolution (the War for State's rights vs Federal omnipotence - aka "Civil War") may have thoroughly trashed that. If not, the actions we have allowed government to take since, will finish the job.

It is quite possible this republic is already dead and we must wait for what's rotten to go back to the soil, before we can grow a new one.

Irish'

The People will be the ones paying - all the others pass the costs along to the consumers who can pay.

That's why this Healthcare effort AND the Cap and Trade are foolish. Somehow, someone (or many) think: "if we say we're going to tax only businesses and the rich; the fools won't notice - and may even cheer us on". THAT is the mentality in Washington, DC today - and in many States. It isn't new - government(s) have been taxing us in this fashion for quite a few years, now. ANY tax on business (income, water/sewer/gas/road/canal/dock use, unemployment, SS, medicare/medicaid, environmental, etc) is passed to the consumer. This is a known fact to politics, but few individuals bother to remember - or don't know.

Makes it a handy way to hide a new tax - along with "surcharges and fees" for things you already pay taxes to support.

That, on top of the fact that all the claims for either cannot be supported and/or are already known to be failures.

Hawaii tried the "government healthcare" thing for a short while. It was such a failure, they did something incredibly rare for government - they stopped and repealed it after less than a year. As for the whole environmental claim of Cap and Trade: Spain is suffering tremendously, finding that those claims are unsupportable.

The financial aspects will merely enrich those who trade such things (like politicians and large banking institutions?) - like Al Gore? Energy generators and big users will simply use them to maintain the status quo - and likely, no one will build new, without a government guarantee of sufficient credits. Don't look for new names; only the current big names will survive.

I apologize in advance for being optimistic

Heres what i think , i dont like the rich any more than most people and im certainly working class at best but even i think why should people who have done well for themselves have to 'share' their income with others, its not fair to make the well off keep paying for everything for the poor, the poor get free housing, free education, free food, free medical care all at the expense of someone else working their butt off while they sit around and do nothing.

we need to boot out every illegal and anchor baby so at least if the plan does go through its medical care for citizens only! and get all the lazy ass people off welfare and in to jobs, even if its greeting at walmart - get out and earn some money and pay some taxes!

the best part is that Rangel owes over $100k in back taxes. Is under stalled ethic vioaltion investigations etc.

Wonder how much he will be taxing himself in the end.

Here is link about health care reform everyone should see. Insurance companies have already in the 1st quarter of 09 spent $126,000,000 lobbying congress (not including other tv ads etc.). Lobbyist are everywhere spreading disinformation. They have a vested interest as do holders of their stock. QUESTION : Do lobbyist run the United States?

Why is there a link above at #4 , but they have cut my link go to pbs.org and see featured videos profit over people.

knight,

lobbyists probably have some influence, quite a bit actually. but I think the republican strategy is more of a political manuever. Repubs are hoping the health care reform will fail. Part of the motive is payback to dems for scuttling republican attempts to reform social security. But the main reason is that if health care reform passes, and is even moderately successful, it makes Obama look like a good leader and kills their chances in 2012. It's just politics as usual.

Right out of the handbook again. Who has control? Who sets the agenda? Who controls which legislation is processed? Kindly inform us all as to how the republicans can destroy this effort when they don't have enough votes to kill it or override a veto. They can't even fillibuster in the senate. Get your information from someplace other than the shysters in DC

ohhnho...this is partially payback for the dems' scuttling social security reform and part opportunistic politics. both parties do it. Repubs had 6 years to torture dems, now it's the dems' turn. I'm a bi-partisan blamer. I'm against partisanship more than I'm against any particular party.

ohnnho,

you seem to be blaming the democrats for doing exactly the same thing the republicans were doing from 2001 to 2007. I agree what the dems are doing sucks. Do you agree that it also sucks when the repubs do it?? or are you just another blind partisan?

I think that moderate repubs should make a greater effort to propose alternatives. You almost never see a comment by a moderate repub on newsvine...the vast majority of comments are hostile right wing talking points which slander and accuse and do not point toward any kind of solution. I have never seen a proposal from a republican that address denial of coverage for pre-existing condition. The repub rep from Louisiana is suppost to be the lead repub on this issue, but the proposals on his web site are vague, incomplete, and do not talk about costs. It's a half-hearted effort, probably because the party leadership wants this effort to fail in order to take political advantage. (Like the dems did with social security reform).

We would really benefit from the truth about insurance companies. I commend Obama for not digging the dirt up and exposing the truth concerning Health Insurance Companies. However Can we get some real investigative reporting?

Seems to me that the only way to get people on board is to spell out why in clear Numerical Digits what is really at stake and what is really transpiring.

If we don't see the truth than every one will continue to run their mouths about things that they can not comprehend nor understand the reasoning for.

Obama you preached and preached about giving American's transparency! Well lets have it! Truth not propoganda, give both sides of the story, give alternative solutions. Most understand there is a problem but can't put their minds and hands on a solution. All we see is large amazing numbers.

Oh no Joe Mota, you have posted several times you are Bi-Partisian, but you want free healthcare for your wife.

You are a true hypocrit.

Willing to make others to suffer "I am in it for myself" is what you said.

makes me sick.

The Pursuit of Happiness

You cannot pursue happiness if you're $100,000 in debt over a hospital visit. Or maybe you have to mortgage your home for a needed operation.

, that absurd. I'm not paying for your misfortune. Go to blazes.

Sam - I am with YOU - they have NO constitutional right to foist this boondoggle on us

bfriesen - you DO have a right to pursue happiness - BUT IT IS NOT A GUARANTEE

You can't persue happiness without a new car, nice clothes, home theater, and big house either. Those too must be 'rights'...

What part of the word "pursuit" do you not understand?

Its in the Declaration of Independence which is protected by the Constitution, LIFE, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Your life and body are your right.

The pursuit of happiness is in each persons own way of thinking. And unfortunately there are a lot of people now-of-days that have a very perverse way of thinking. One perverse way of thinking is that society as a whole owes an individual just about everything without effort on the receivers part. A society will grind to a halt as more and more people get on the free-ride wagon train and there are less and less people to pull the wagons.

Its in the Declaration of Independence which is protected by the Constitution, LIFE, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Your life and body are your right.

It's funny how all the things we finally understand about the constitution the further away we get from its formation.... The idiots who wrote the thing just didn't get it did they?

Also, how happy are the people in California with all of their high taxes, strict regulation, and services for all?

How happy will we be when the best our kids can hope for is a job pushing paper for the government because they are the only one hiring?

How happy will we be when a loaf of bread costs $10 due to inflation?

No one has the RIGHT to be happy. There is no such thing. It's the right in this country to PURSUE it. These bills are DECREASING the ability to pursue.

Healthcare reform is going to cost all Americans, eventually. So will Cap and Trade, if it it is passed.

Cap and Trade -- This should make you upset if you are a homeowner. From the proposed Cap and Trade Plan:

Waxman-Markey cap-and-trade bill called the "Building Energy Performance Labeling Program". It's section 304 of the bill and it says, basically, that your house belongs to the state. See, the Federal Government really wants a country full of energy-efficient homes, so much so that the bill mandates that new homes be 30 percent more energy efficient than the current building code on the very day the law is signed. That efficiency goes up to 50 percent by 2014 and only goes higher from there, all the way to 2030. That, by the way, is not merely a target but a requirement of the law. New homes must reach those efficiency targets no matter what. But what does that have to do with current homeowners like you? Well, I'm glad you asked. You're certainly not off the hook, no way, no how. Here's what the Democrats have planned for you. The program requires that states label their buildings so that we can all know how efficient every building (that includes residential and non-residential buildings) is and it requires that the information be made public. To that end, the bill suggests a number of circumstances under which the states could inspect a building, including: (A) preparation, and public disclosure of the label through filing with tax and title records at the time of-- (i) a building audit conducted with support from Federal or State funds;

...that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men

You are free to pursue happiness, this obviously wouldn't apply to healthcare. Right to life, however, has far more potential to fit healthcare coverage.

"...that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men"

After reading those lines I've come to the conclusion that we all have life. No one said your life was going to be easy or without troubles..... so I don't think that covers healthcare. We all have liberty.... well, those of use who aren't in prison for committing a crime. That doesn't cover healthcare. We can all pursue happiness..... but happiness is a state of mind so I don't think that covers healthcare either. So in conclusion.... healthcare is NOT a right.

gday67 i wholeheartedly concur with your conclusion. H?ealthcare is not a right and is not garuanteed by the Constitution. However Liberty or Freedom of Choice is garuanteed by the Constitution bu by being forced to participate in some sort of health care plan that Freedom has been removed from me. If I chose not to participate the govt will fine me and force me to participate. This is the real freedom that is being trampled on. If you are not ambitious enough to find a job and earn enough money to pay for health insurance then well life insurance policies are cheap so that when you die your famimly is taken care of. Instead of imposing a new forced system on the people against the Constitution why dont they instead fix the one they have now.

the pursuit of happiness is a good angle, I would be happier if I didn't have my house payment. Maybe we could all get a free car the government has 50 billion in GM. We could all be really, really happy.

Carlos... consider this.... the government has no money except for what they take from you..... so think you could probably go to GM and pick out any vehicle you like..... we'll be paying for it down the road or at least our future generations will.

Obama himself said we are broke. We cannot afford this.

gday67 (and I suppose - everyone else),

According to the Constitution, any possible right is to the People first - then (if we so choose) the State - then (If the People and State so choose) the Feds. The choices needn't be deliberate - they can be usurped if we aren't using them or paying attention.

Right to Life doesn't support healthcare: you are alive, even if you ARE ill. What that portion says, is that no one can take your life from you, arbitrarily - even government.

Same with Liberty, but that happens daily - because many folk don't recognize it and aren't paying attention. Yet many of these are the first to scream when held responsible for their own actions. We ALL have much less liberty than even a generation ago. Look closely and count the things you need to have "official permission" - from government - for. Each of those eats up your liberty and interferes with -

Pursuit of Happiness. No one (even government) can willfully interfere with your pursuit, if YOU are acting responsible and not harming (or willfully interfering with) another. You might notice some encroachment there, too.

A lot can be attributed to the following:

In ALL rights - explicit and implied - there IS one underlying rule: responsibility.

That would mean YES - you have the right to play that stereo with the volume on 12 - but you DO NOT have the right to do so, if it interferes with the neighbor's right to peace. Therefore, you are obligated BY YOUR RIGHTS to act responsibly in regards to that neighbor and keep the volume down - as he would then be obligated to endure the slight reduction of his peace, for a short while.

YES - you have the right to go a bajillion MPH (if you can), but NOT at the expense of other's right expect safe travel.

YES - you have the right, but to exercise it, you must also accept the responsibility of doing your best to ensure other's rights.

We, the People, don't do that very well. That is why "government is instituted" - to facilitate us getting along responsibly.

However; when that government "facilitation" is abused - either within (politicians, et al) or without (activists thru lobby, or court) to force or otherwise coerce the People to conform to an arbitrary, set rule - we get what we have today: an overbearing, overspending, overtaxing, overwhelming behemoth trampling your rights with impunity.

It is well past time to skin that beast

Well noted, California is already bankrupt again and the are taking everyone else down with them. They are the most anti - American state in the union, but want our money to feed their money hoarding programs. They need to get their heads out of their azzes and wake up.

demitrix go back to flipping burgers. You have no idea about the nonsense you spew. You are foolish.

Why is it assumed that when health care is reformed, and the goverment (aka the taxpayers) are paying all the bills, that no one will be denied health care?

And that, my friend, is it in a nutshell.

• If you are a "less than desirable" citizen?!
• Perhaps you smoked in your youth?!
• Perhaps you have a criminal background?!
• Perhaps you have a "gene" in your family tree that will cause a severe illness?!
• Perhaps you have HIV?!

Who is to say what patients get treatment? The Federal Government? Not in my opinion.

This is a bag of tricks that is N O T in any way shape or form going to benefit those who see it as a "free ride."

Yes, there are things that need to be addressed which I and others on here have listed.

But let's fix what we knowis broken. And then Americans can work on other issues in health care.

We will all get IOUS... like California... Perhaps that iw why California senators are a big believer in this bill. They want all the other states in the hole with them.

SickNTired #7.1,

"But let's fix what we know is broken."

May I suggest that we start with Congress, then review the rest of the federal bureaucracies.

How can we do this? Get after the state governments to exercise their Constitutional power/responsibility to amend the Constitution to recover control from our runaway federal government, via convening a Constitutional Convention.

A bigger fear of mine is that I will maintain my own personal medical.

Once the Government deems a treatment or a drug "too expensive" or not "cost-effective" for it's Insurance, the treatment or drug will be regulated out of reach of my Personal Medical insurance since their Users cannot get it.

This is an extrememly slippery slope.

Sherry, please try, at least a little bit, to get your facts straight....there is no proposal for the government to pay all the bills. You are either uninformed or deliberately lying. I'll give the benefit of the doubt and inform you that under the public option currently proposed, the subscribers pay for their health care via premiums, exactly like private healith insurance. There are proposals to subsidize premiums for low income workers with tax money. I don't mind if you're against that, as your comments indicate you are, but please don't spread lies about what the current proposal actually is. I think that arguments are more effective if they are premised on the truth rather than lies.

Here is a couple of links to Wisconsin's Badgercare program. This was set up by Republican Governor Tommy Thompson in 1999.

http://www.badgercareplus.org/faq.htm

http://www.milbank.org/010123badgercare.html

demitrix go back to flipping burgers. You have no idea about the nonsense you spew.

ahh Pddoc did I make you feel stupid? Best thing is under government care that short yellow bus will not cost your Foster parents extra money Pddoc. This way you can goto the arcade and watch those pretty lights.

You unintelligent idiot .

demitrix'

Unless you have your own, personal policy; any health insurance Plan will likely be dropped, in favor of letting the Feds "get on with it". Why should they pay TWO plans, when the Fed plan will start off cheaper? It will have to, BTW, because otherwise, no one will bother with it. If no one plays, it doesn't exist - at least not to the extent the Feds desire..

Odds are, YOUR plan will become more expensive, anyway, as there will be fewer premium-paying members to support it.

Hawaii noticed this - along with employers dropping carriers, in favor of the government model; because it was cheaper and less bother.

The Health Insurance Plan will further tie us to the government teat - like it or not.

Note that the discussion now recognizes the issue as insurance - not care.

yes where is the motivation to do anything any more but breed like rabbits and be lazy, if you pop out kids and dont feel like working you dont have to anymore the government will just bend over and give you a house, food, money for living, education and health care, heck why dont we all do that, everyone earnign under $350k a year should just stop working and get everything for free, woo hoo, yeah im kidding but geez wheres the incentive to get off welfare anymore. anyone on welfare should at least be doing community service, you shouldnt get money for doing nothing!

The Demoncrats know that as long as they enable their brain-dead voters, they'll stay on board.

Do you have any idea, how much time and research goes into a new drugand how much that costs, and all the clinical trials. How much do you pay for car insurance? Do you expect to recover every penny you pay to them? That's why it's insurance...it's there in case you need it and it's not a right it has to be earned!

The majority of "pure research" on new drugs is done by the NIH and major universities which are funded by the taxpayer and NOT by big pharma.

The majority of "pure research" on new drugs is done by the NIH and major universities which are funded by the taxpayer and NOT by big pharma

Source please?

That is undeniably a compelling argument. However, would it not be possible that if were say 68 years old at the time, and had the same medical condition, that a publically sponsored goverment plan might decide that you have lived a full and good life and not necessarily need the surgery? After all, the vast majority of health care expenses occur near the end of life. I don't want a health plan that might say you're too old, or too fat, or you smoke, or drink too much, don't exercise enough, etc, and therefore not eligible under the plan.

Luck had nothing to do with it, it's called WORK, maybe youve hear of it.

you must have gotten up everyday, gone to work, and your employer had health care benefits.

now why do you want to pay for someone who has no desire to get up out of bed and go get a job and pay some money every month to have health insurance? the majority of americans do just that.

Chris and golfmanj,

This is a fundamental difference I have with some people. Some believe that if you're unemployed you're automatically 'lazy' or don't want to 'get up out of bed'....basically, the 9-10% of people who are unemployed are 'lazy'.....it has nothing to do with the failure of the entire system to allow for true competition in the marketplace...it has nothing to do with the failure of government agencies to conduct proper oversight.

Frankly, I don't buy that simplistic version of things. I know far too many people that are unemployed because corporations ship jobs overseas due to slave labor. These people are anything but lazy....they are collatoral damage of a country dominated by corporate greed.

now why do you want to pay for someone who has no desire to get up out of bed and go get a job and pay some money every month to have health insurance?

You're under the impression that you're not paying for it already in unreimbursed emergency room visits.

Frankly, I don't buy that simplistic version of things. I know far too many people that are unemployed because corporations ship jobs overseas due to slave labor.

True, and that is where our attention should be focused. On jobs, jobs, jobs for Americans.

These people are anything but lazy....they are collatoral damage of a country dominated by corporate greed.

Also true to a point. Companies have to make a profit in order to grow and expand and create more jobs.

The real beef IMO is that too many back room political deals were made that created the need to off shore jobs.

When this reform goes through another recession proof job market (health care: from Doctor's on down) will be gone.

I have already seen a significant drop in pay for allied health workers in my neck of the woods.

Jobs that previously paid $12-$15 per hour are being offered at $8.00 per hour.

This is very very bad for America.

Chris, you couldn't be more wrong. My husband and I both WORK, but his is a small company which does not offer insurance and I work part-time in order to raise our child and am not eligible. We have a high-deductable policy which is all we can afford and it covers nothing until we've spent $5,000 out of our own pocket. If we were in doctor logics position, my husband would be dead. Leaving a small child and dependent wife with no provider. And he WORKS. He WORKS very HARD.

San Pedro, stop using scare tactics. You do not know for a fact how this revision of the health insurance will work. You are using propaganda. Do you own shares in some medical company? Please get real. Stick to the facts not scare tactics.

Luck? That you had a way of paying? So - if you didn't have a way to pay - you wouldn't have gone?

What you had, was CHOICE. Don't call it anything else. Too many are equating a method of payment for quality of care. You would have discoved the same thing regardless of payment option.

Just because you would CHOOSE not to go, otherwise, has nothing to do with "right to healthcare", or "right to insurance" and everything to do with "right to choose".

That "right to choose" includes whether or not to have insurance (yes, it's expensive - but so is a car - with all the tricks: so is a house - bigger than you need: so are the "toys" - that you "deserve - but don't NEED). There are a LOT of "uninsured" because they CHOOSE that. There are a LOT of people who do not get timely care - even WITH insurance - because they CHOOSE that.

Unfortunately, CHOICE has a price; and many who find the price - after they choose - are unwilling to accept the responsibility of their choice; which is to pay the price.

Sadly, I agree. Remember the good ol' days when there was personal responsibility and jobs, and a future for those who worked for it? It seems so far off now...

It's too late. We are all welfare states now.

SueZQ,It's about time we are all welfare states now!

grumble,grumble, whine, pout, cry

I guess you just hate the idea of everyone having health care. I guess it should only be for the wealthy, the corporate workers or the government employees.

You're probably retired living fat off of a government pension and health care, yet complaining about "socialism".

IRONIC bfriesen....I AM A DOCTOR. So no I employ people. I pay for my own healthcare. I see what a money pit MC and MA are. I see what the restrictions are when it comes to medicine options for MC part D people. I have to save for my own retirement. I am taxed at a rate based on what my business makes not what I take home.

Healthcare needs to be worked on NO DOUBT; but what needs to happen is the government needs to GET OUT OF IT....and yes the Gov is far far far deep into healthcare and that has lead to the insurance cost problems via Ala Carte madates on state by state basis, mandated coverage every plan must have, MC/MA cost sharing, the lack of TORTE reform, ALL THESE ARE GOVERNMENT CAUSED ISSUES. In a classic fashion our government causes a problem then claims it is the private sector and says we the gov can fix it. Just like with housing, oil, and energy.

I bet you ....over 75% of the people getting gov pension and gov healthcare hold LIBERAL (like those of the SEIU, ASPME, etc etc) views very different from my conservative ones....maybe you should inform yourself before you speak

"but what needs to happen is the government needs to GET OUT OF IT"

Because private industry has done SO WELL? Health care should NOT BE FOR PROFIT! The current mess is a prime example of what happens when "capitalism" and "greed" are in charge of health care.

By "torte reform" I can only assume you mean make it harder to sue those who are inept and cause problems. I know many doctors who should not even be practicing medicine yet are allowed to because no one will sue them.

And by the way, as a "doctor" you obviously have never been on the OTHER side of the issue, skipping treatment because you can't afford it or going bankrupt to pay for an operation. No, doctors have no problem getting all the care they need.

bfriesen....YOU ARE USING THE FEW TO GROUP THE MANY. Private industry has created the best healthcare in the world. Having it FOR PROFIT gets this country the best doctors the WORLD offers. If something is not for profit there is no drive to improve and serve at its best. You are one of the sad souls that think capitalism caused this....NO government intrusion led us to this point in all the ways I listed and you ignored. Torte reform would be geared at POINTLESS and frivalous lawsuits not legit ones...

You know MANY doctors that should not be practicing??????realy???? Yes they are out there but again, few to group many....

Are you saying doctors don't have health issues or are all doctors "so rich" in your mind we can just buy it???? I will note I had the DRIVE to go to school for 10 plus years, pay malpractice insurance, pay for CE each year, build my own practice, and pay back (still am) the over 250K in student loans I had.....so if I end up making money is that bad???? Why don't you do it if it is so great and we make so much money; heck why doesn't everybody....Nothing is perfect but and our system needs work but we are trying to work it in the WRONG direction towards more gov vs. less.

OK Zach

Logically speaking....

1).....yet we still wait and obama says now we will have to wait longer

When Obama first talked about the stimulus package, he said this was actually a two-year plan. The first appropriation of money was given to the states which has extended unemployment benefits and gave states the ability to keep some workers state wide employed.

2 & 3) .....day "the stimulus has done it's job" (please reference above)???

I don't think anyone predicted the depth to which the recession would reach. As a matter of fact, if we could've predicted this, it would've made a case for a LARGER stimulus bill.

4).....ded obama's initial numbers he told the american people for the year!)

I do admit that CBO's numbers are less 'optimistic' than the WH's. However, the numbers you're using have been greatly reduced. Also, the CBO also doesn't take into account savings projected from various projects.

I do agree it sucks that we have all this debt and that we have HAD all this debt to begin with. It sure would've been nice if we could've kept the surpluses at the beginning of the Bush years to whack away at some of this debt. (remember a lot of the debt we have is money we owe 'ourselves', by the way)

5)......their private plans to the government options imediately as it rolls out.

The only thing the WH has "confirmed" is that they are NOT going to dictate to employers what insurance they deal with....meaning, they're not going to tell employers they have to choose the government option; that option is left to the employer.

6)......HAS COME OUT ON TIME, ON BUDGET, OR ON PROMISE THAT THIS WILL.

I think it is disingenuous to say that given the fact Obama has taken the reigns half way through this recession, when all economists were worried about an all-out depression, and without ANYONE having any crystal ball when he took office, that in 5 1/2 months time we can definitively say all policies aren't working (or are working) when they haven't even been given a chance to do so.

Where were all these experts just 4 or 5 months ago or, better yet, last summer when this could've been dealt with before letting it be pushed to the edge of the cliff?

I've said this over and over, Obama and the WH are the ONLY ones offering solutions along with complete explanations that truly show a difference between the mistakes of the past and the directions we're going. If the minority wants to be heard, offer solutions and explanations how their ideas will work....it isn't enough to simply bash Obama, say 'socialism', or use other tactics. You don't like what's being done, step up and offer alternative solutions.

Doctor logic the vast majority of your points proves my overwhelming point that government, esp this admin never gets it right.

Obama pushed the stimulus through based on the primary goal of short term bridge....this two year thing came out LATER....two years is insane because had we done nothing natural cycles would have brought us around.

Obama said the stimulus has done its job at a town hall in reference to how it has saved teachers and firemen etc...he said that was its job.

So in your 5) you are confirming what the whitehouse said that the gov plan will defacto force people onto it via its creatation alone

Some of your other points you are using things the whitehouse said later....again that is my point they tell you one thing then alter it later to better fit what is happening or to stem expectations once they pass or say something....so why do we want that same pattern with our healthcare?

Sorry Zach, but, you're wrong. He said right from the giddyup that this was going to take a long time to get out of.

I'll give you a chance here....if you think Obama's ideas are wrong, explain better alternatives and explain how it will help us avoid problems of the past and get us the goals of the future. Who knows, maybe you have an idea that's worth listening to.

Tort reform would go along way. I know a few doc's that pay almost as much for insurance as they get paid. It takes years to start making a doctor salary.

From what I have heard the minority wants the government to take over health care. In political circles the government is the solution for everything and the ensuing power is a wonderful plus and incentive to act quickly without scrutiny. The dreaded profit is what motivates people to excel. Take profit out of the system and see what is left, mediocrity. We can excel and providee service, this is not sweeping reform as evidenced by the lack of tort reform, this is a politically motivated scheme that will be costly and lower the bar. I don't like being forced to participate but the tyranny of congress will require it.

Doctor logic....He said 8% he said short term bridge...longterm roll out was secondary. We will agree to disagree on that......

Here are my ideas:

1) Remove state government mandated standards on what private insurers must include in all plans this way plans can compete across borders. Also this would decrease plan costs and avoid higher cost plans subsidizing lower cost ones that MUST via mandate cover some things (examples are some states require all plans to cover STD counselling, family planning advisors, quite smoking services etc).

2) Remove government mandates on all insurance plans; but regulate that plans must be laid out in a clear way. Similar to what we are trying to do with credit cards...then there is no "fine print" excuse

3) Remove the cost sharing aspect of MC/MA with private insurers...this is not a mandate specifically but happens. This can happen via MC reform...not the coverage but the cost; including benefits for delaying enrollment or a private option that you can use your accumulated MC funds for.

4) Torte reform. This would decrease the practice of doctors doing tests purely to "cover" themselves from future lawsuits and reduce the high malpractice insurance costs.

5) remove the regulation on private insurance that requires them to pay money towards MC (in a de-facto kind of way)...this can be done by incentives to cover people of MC age in that private option way I discussed.

6) Create a graduated system for people with MA that will cover that "slush" group of people that don't qaulify but have low income. coverage would be graduated on a pay scale. some plans may only cover prevention if you are higher up etc. With this increase the copays on MA plans from 0, 10, 25 dollars to 10, 20, 50 dollars with this money coming back to the patient via tax credit at like 50%.

7) This one does pain me but require residency for ER visits without payment. Block border baby care.. not sure how we can work this but lets just say imgration reform then.....

I have some other secondary ideas but this is a start. I hope you like some of them and it gets people thinking of a private vs. government way of addressing the problem

Agreed Zach! Well stated.

Thanks for the reply Zach....a few questions I'd have, however:

In a "nutshell", it seems like you'd like to remove government almost completely from the system except for adding a government regulation. You have some interesting ideas but I don't see anything regarding:

*How much will a plan of this nature cost? You add government regulation in areas and you offer tax credits in areas.

*It seems that much more power is given to health insurers, is this kept in check through government regulation?

*How does this plan insure the 47 million people who are uninsured?

*Would this add more responsibility(monetary) onto poor folks?

*How does this address the problems of denial of care due to "preexisting conditions"?

*Haven't you removed almost all protections for the patient?

It seems like these might be some interesting ideas but I don't see how these will address all the problems we're facing now.

If I understand your ideas correctly(I may be misunderstanding some, however).

The only kinds of programs that should be government run are programs that everyone, and I mean everyone needs, not wants, needs, like police, fire department streets, plows and the like. Rememer, I said everyone, not a few, not even 1/2, everyone and our rights include the right to be safe from crime, not the right to good health as we trash that when we drink, smoke and eat excessively.

Well Doclogic:

I am not going to claim to be a CBO economist but typically having the government remove itself is cheaper then vastly increasing its presence in an area. the only government regulation I would add is the presence of a law that requires easy to understand coverage details so people could not claim "small print".

The purpose of the MA increase in copay followed by its return at 50% in a tax credit is three fold 1) it would greatly increase the funds given to doctors thus increasing the dwindling numbers of providers that take MA 2) it would force MA patients to take some responsibility and not abuse their insurance 3) it would allow the government MA system to have more cash on hand during the year and return it as a credit thus no net change at years end. ___the above along with the graduated MA scale I discussed will be paid for (if any cost increase is present) via the removal of cost from government inforced mandates. Also much of MA and MC could be bid out to private insurers so gov cost are lowered still.

Yes private is given more power that is the idea. gov regulation is what lead to out of control costs. these business will still have to follow all BBB rules as well as anti-trust laws. Unless something is truely free-market it is corupted.

Of the 47 million uninsured 16 million choose not to be....that falls on them then. another 12-18 million are illegal....I adressed that. Of the rest many will fall into the graduated MA group; others may be able to afford a basic plan once costs come down from all the other ideas. But there will always be life and tough circumstances and for that people need to turn to friends, family, non-profits etc....nothing can be perfect and bad luck/life happens to some.

This would not more $$ worries to the poor for two reasons....the tax credit and the graduated MA coverage. But lets not forget just because you are not well off doesn't mean you should just "get" things...some responsibilty needs to remain. They will be helped if more docs pick up MA due to the reasons I listed above.

The pre-exsisting is tough....My honest thoughts are that is how it works...but the graduated MA may help....and the lower costs of all plans based on my ideas (those covering prevention only would eventually decrease the presence of a pre-exsisting condition if you get in cheap then just up the plan if something occurs) would help them get into a plan that would grandfather those conditions in at a higher rate...again unfortunate things happen.

Protection for the patient would remain as it is now.....removing government in areas does not remove patient protection. Torte reform does not remove all lawsuits and gov mandate of coverage areas only gives people the choice..

No plan is perfect...mine probably can't adress all the problems....but this gov one certainly can't either and will create more on its own. We need to do something but just saying "nothing better is on the table" doesn't mean we should rush to do something really bad.

TRUE Private interprise will always be better government.

Hope this is interesting to ponder...got to run. nice talking

zach and docLogic,

I have to say I'm impressed with the way you were able to disagree without being disagreeable. Very interesting series of posts. Thank you.

I have to disagree with docLogic in his unqualified support for private enterprise and his disdain for government regulation. It was none other than Alan Greenspan who admitted that his faith in the unfettered free marked was his biggest mistake. The problem is that there's a tangible percentage of people who will lie, cheat, and steal to make money. That's why we need government regulation. It should set the rules of the game and then get out of the way, like an umpire, except with instant replay (i.e. reporting requirements).

Also, docLogic has no suggestion on the pre-existing condition question, which is vital to me. reform that still allows denial of coverage for pre-existing condition is meaningless to me. I would prefer a gov't plan (choke) to private without addressing this issue.

joe,

Just for the record...I am NOT for pure private, unregulated enterprise (especially in health care). Much to the disagreement of many on the vine, I am FOR much more government involvement in finance, health care, energy, education.

Regarding health care, it is my opinion we can do better than simply regulating the health insurance industry by offering a public obtion of insurance and let the private companies compete accordingly. That would be the ultimate regulation....set the standard companies would have to adhere to.

Your hypocrisy is astounding.

AS IT SHOULD BE!!!! Of course, along with that right should come responsibility.

Responsibility to take care of yourself. If you don't, there should be consequences

Your responsibility is to have a job, make your own decisions and provide for yourself (Shelter, Food, Clothing, Medical).

Yet you now say this is a RIGHT and now want people to be responsible for themselves?

Truly an idiotic and hypocritical statement if ever there was one.

What's the next RIGHT, a car, at flat screen tv, an ipod, where does our own responsibility come into play?

If you don't take care of yourself their are consequences.....now with government health care we will all have to pay for others consequences. Unless you are proposing the government coming into our homes and telling us what we can eat, drink, and do.

buddy, first you were bitching that everyone should be given health care, now, you want people to take responsibility! are you a congressmen? cause you sure sound like one.

Unless you are proposing the government coming into our homes and telling us what we can eat, drink, and do.

Not so far fetched...............

Big brother is gaining strength, be careful what you say.

Carlos,If you had read 1984 you would realize that big brother was a totalitarian regime that closely resembled the last administration.The "thought police" in the novel were not liberals ,socialists or populists at any stretch.They were however completely intolerant of independent thought much like the conservative priests of pablum in our own culture.
Unlike President Bush O'bama was voted into office by the people not selected by the Florida supreme court .

Will, I read 1984. I would disagree with your spin. I believethe enemy of freedom was and always has been the government. I am no fan of the previous administration and their policies. But if you review your history you might discover that the National Socialists and the Communists were responsible for the most oppressive governments in history. They not only murdered their own citizens at an unprecedented rate, they also demanded compliance with their agenda with no dissent. These non fiction governments were, liberals, socialists or populists in the eyes of their supporters. The New Your times defended the excesses of Stalin for years because they believed in the socialist agenda, that is something you can look up if you wish, along with the mass death caused by the collectivization of private farms in the old Soviet Union in the 1930's. Historically both party's have been willing to take any stance that they perceived would help them obtain power with little to no regard for doing what is in the best interests of the public. Your analysis of the last 10 years is but a small part of the record. As a resident of Illinois I can tell you the democrats have perfected voter fraud not only here but in other cities and states. If you look a little deeper and disregard the tired slogans that have been parroted by the followers of the herd for the last 200 or so years you might find there is very little difference between these corrupt institutions that abuse the citizens and constitution whenever they can. Neither party has any moral authority and true liberals or conservatives value freedom over government, something politicians from either party consider crazy.

Will, I have one more question; if you agree with the philosophy of the leadership are you willing to cede power to control your life? In my view I don't care if they are a politician, conservative or liberal, I don't trust them.

Carlos, I would add insurance company beaurocrat, crooked capitalist, and rabid environmentalist to the list of those to whom I do not wish to cede control.

demitrix go back to flipping burgers. You have no idea about the nonsense you spew. You are foolish.

Fortunately, we are not bound to only do what one interpets in the constitution.

No interptation needed....it is not in there as a right. Therefore, like I said, it is being legislated INTO a right. Pelosi, obama, and others discuss it AS an ASSIGNED right all americans CURRENTLY posess that is not being fulfilled and must be....that is incorrect

Fortunately, we are not bound to only do what one interpets in the constitution.

The constitution protects us from the government and the tyranny of the majority. (in this case a minority) We as citizens seem to have no protection from a heavy handed government deciding how much we can keep in the interests of spreading the wealth, the attitude that its okay to take the funds from someone else is a long standing tactic of demagogues and tyrants. Soon enough they will come after the rest of us.

Really? How do they propose to get it to the floor of the house or senate? You are naive indeed if you expect to see anything other than democraic sponsored legislation as long as they hold a monopoly of government. Since you will never know what is in the plan you have no real reason for even making a comment about it. It is not an option for the coubtry because it will never see the light of day.

Ken, what was in the Plan?? I've been hearing about a GOP plan, but there were reportedly problems with vagueness and costs, and it didn't address pre-existing conditions. please give me the highlights of the GOP, if it really exists.

Alas Ken, I was hoping someone out there knew something about the republican plan. this vine seems full of people who are crammed to the gills with information and misinformation about the democrats' plans, but nobody who knows the slightest thing about the republican plan. what's the matter repubs, cat got your tongue? are you afraid to put your plan out there?? don't you stand up for anything?? are you only able to tear things down??

I'm under the impression that there are some good ideas in the repub plan, and I'd like to see them discussed.

apparently all the repubs can do is complain about the democrats' plans (usually after mis-representing them)...don't you people stand for anything other than political slogans?

are there any independents or democrats or anyone else who can explain the republican plan?

Furthermore, government-run programs are hardly without their own money issues. The Government Accountability Office that in 2008 half of improper payments made by the federal government came from Medicare and Medicaid. The Medicare fee-for-service program had an estimated $10.4 billion in improper payments, plus Medicare Advantage doled out $6.8 billion that it shouldn’t have. Medicaid’s improper payments totaled $18.6 billion for the year.

This is the same government that you want to run your universal healcare?

This isn't government run healthcare, it's not even government insurance, it's a way to make insurance, both government and private more affordable.

This isn't government run healthcare, it's not even government insurance, it's a way to make insurance, both government and private more affordable

How will the plan make insurance more affordable?

Who will be running the new healthcare plan?

its giving the lazy and illegals free health care. it will cost those of us that work for a living and pay part of our insurance through our employers a lot more because of this.

LetsBeReasonable,

This is just another case of the gov't perpetuating itself by saying they are the only ones who know best and can "fix" things. Well thay have not proven it to me yet and I'm to the point I can't afford to pay them anymore for their little experiments. This does not belong under gov't. Obama & Pelosi and the gang are doing their best to infiltrate every part of our lives. I'm sick of a big government getting even bigger. Can you honestly tell me you want the gov't to run every part of your life? It's getting that way wether you see it or not. We do not need more government.

I pay for my own and if I go to the hospital and have a 100K bill I have a 6K out of pocket max per year so I guess it would be about 6K I would pay. My families plan costs me just over 400 per month................soooooooo.

MC is a junk pile; yes. but it is not truely socialized because of patients can opt to pay out of pocket or get a medicare subsidee plan that can take over...

I agree with zach.

maybe we could discuss universal healthcare when americans decide to look after themselves, right now the amount of fat, lazy and unhealthy people in america will cripple a national health system in a few years, national health is paid for by taxes and right now now enough people are working to pay enough tax to cover everyone not working, heck even when there were jobs there are to many people who think breeding is a better past time than getting a job, we have to many fat people with diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, cholesterol, sleep apnoea, joint problems, to many cases of aids because we dont screen immigrants and have to many illegals, to many alcoholics with liver failure and hepatitis, to many smokers with lung cancer, copd and emphysems. the main problem is illegals, to many people using the system and not paying in to the system

national health could work if 1) we boot out all illegals and anchor babies, 2) americans start taking care of themselves or we start penalising those who dont in some way and 3) we get people back to work, even if its only walmart, at least they will be paying taxes and contributing to the system.