Illegal immigrants are apparently patriotic according to Pelosi though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ1xFllib8c

Sounds like Pelosi's panties are in a wad. She can support the hippies of the 60's, but when it comes to everyday working people getting tired of her and her "mob" leaching off working people she gets all histrionic. Take a zanax woman.

Pelosi and her cronies are skating on thin ice with being re-elected because of the healthcare bill and other spending bills they are proposing (cap and trade).

Clean the "house" in 2010.

Obama now wants Americans to snitch on each other for protesting the healthcare bill. Who does he think he is? Last time I checked, protests are covered under the 1st Amendment of the Constitution. Oh, I forgot. Obama's interpretation is much more different than it is written.

So put on your servant gear and listen to the people of the United States.

Just don't forget that the other 80% of "the people of the United States" want and demand healthcare reform... and they want to do it absent blatant lies and through solid discussion. As usual, your complaints above show no substance and consists of nothing but disrespect, arrogance, and childish name calling. You can show how creative and head-strong you can be... how about putting it to constructive use?

Reform is one thing. But when our elected officials are excluded from the same policies we have to take, something is seriously wrong.

Skeeter, agreed. And I agree that spending needs to be controlled and reeled in and that we need to get the "reform" right. But when it became okay to outright lie and represent it as "news" and to spread hatred and encourage complete disruption, I can fully understand Obama wanting to get earlier warnings of lying email campaigns... and whether you respect Pelosi or not, you really do have to question the extreme tactics currently being used. Besides just being disrespectful of others, the tactic can potentially cause our country to come to a crawl... but maybe that's what you want?

Our lawmakers are not listening to what Americans want. They only way we have to make our voices heard is to protest. As for the hatred, it is being spread from both sides, not just the right.

Our voices will be heard in the next election cycles. These politicians know it will be political suicide if they vote on the bill as it is. If we are forced into this healthcare bill as it is, what will be the next thing we are forced into?

Just shut up Nancy.

Not that I think its productive to shout out different points of view or distort the facts, but it's similar to what the Democrats did when Bush proposed reforming Social Security. They labeled it as "privatizing" the program and scared seniors by saying that Bush was going to gamble with their benefits in the stock market. If you read the proposal, it was nothing like that. Just shut up and deal with it Pelosi. What goes around, comes around.

I (California) cant stand that piece of crap She ignores us she doesn't care about anything except her own ego and her legacy (what legacy) She likes the power like all politicians and why we can't remove her as speaker of the house is beyond me; aren't we the voters do we not have a right to ask for a new speaker of the house????? And if not, why???

Rob Scan

Not that I think its productive to shout out different points of view or distort the facts, but it's similar to what the Democrats did when Bush proposed reforming Social Security. They labeled it as "privatizing" the program and scared seniors by saying that Bush was going to gamble with their benefits in the stock market.

That's precisely what they said because that's precisely what the plan presented in 2004 would have done. Subsequently, that money would have been placed in a stock market that tanked last fall. As Leo Tolstoy once said, "It may be dog shyt, it may be cat shyt, but it still stinks." Bush's plan was a bust and the current one is as well. It is ill-conceived and there is probably not a single Congressmen in the lot, Republican or Democrat, who has read it in its entirety, along their staffs.

Forget the outrageous claims of euthanasia, rationing, and the death of Medicare. Five minutes ago, I received an e-mail with a number of points that I'd personally like to check out myself. Trouble is, I can't find the bill to verify whether any of the following is correct or not:

• Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
• Page 29: Admission: yo ur health care will be rationed!
• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
• Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
• Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
• Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
• Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
• Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
• Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
• Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll
• Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
• Page 167: Any individual who doesn’t' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
• Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
• Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
• Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
• Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
• Page 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
• Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
• Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
• Page 268: Government regulates renta l and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
• Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
• Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
• Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
• Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
• Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
• Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
• Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
• Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
• Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
• Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
• Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
• Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
• Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
• Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
• Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.

======================

On page 425 it says in black and white that EVERYONE on Social Security, (will include all Senior Citizens and SSI people) will go to MANDATORY counseling every 5 years to learn and to choose from ways to end your suffering (and your life). Health care will be denied based on age. 500 Billion will be cut from Seniors healthcare. The only way for that to happen is to drastically cut health care, the oldest and the sickest will be cut first. Paying for your own care will not be an option.

LMarcT ....1.4

Come on LMarcT confess, are you Pelosi, Hoyer or Reid?

Brad,

"On page 425 it says in black and white that EVERYONE on Social Security, (will include all Senior Citizens and SSI people) will go to MANDATORY counseling every 5 years to learn and to choose from ways to end your suffering (and your life)."

I hope you find a copy of the bill to check out the facts.....the above line is totally. Whoever sent you that email can't read or is spreading misinformation. Similar to the mis-information you recieved on the SS bill. You mean that stock market that tanked last fall and has gained 20% in the last couple of months? The one Pelosi doesn't want you to know about because it will make you enough money that you won't need to depend on her government? The same one that has made me over a million dollars in my retirement fund in the last 25 years? Of course you have to pay attention to it and work at it. But Pelosi and her pack don't want you to do that. You might start voting conservative if don't have to depend on her welfare.

Thanks for the info. I know now why the unions are in favor of this plan....It will increase their membership significantly. Thanks, again.

Rob Scan

I hope you find a copy of the bill to check out the facts.....the above line is totally. Whoever sent you that email can't read or is spreading misinformation. Similar to the mis-information you recieved on the SS bill. You mean that stock market that tanked last fall and has gained 20% in the last couple of months? The one Pelosi doesn't want you to know about because it will make you enough money that you won't need to depend on her government? The same one that has made me over a million dollars in my retirement fund in the last 25 years? Of course you have to pay attention to it and work at it. But Pelosi and her pack don't want you to do that. You might start voting conservative if don't have to depend on her welfare.

I don't have to depend on anyone's welfare Rob. I spent 20 years in an Army uniform making provisions for my retirement, including my health care, along with sound investments in a stock market that did fairly well in the 90's; one in which I had the good sense to bail out of before things went haywire. Nevertheless, I know a number of folks of retirement age who have lost nearly their entire life savings because of your stock market that tanked last fall and has gained 20% in the last couple of months. Stop parroting the party line; as I said above and in the immortal words of Leo Tolstoy it may be dog shyt, it may be cat shyt, but it still stinks. As for the details of the bill, until I read it myself, it looks as if mis-information & conjecture will continue to be the method by which most Americans will be educated on this. As for Mr. Bush's privatization of Social Security, its centerpiece focused on private investment accounts. What industry drives these? Last I checked, it was located on Wall Street.

How can anyone argue with the speaker and her pals. She is a devoted public servant who toils for the good of every citizen except for the evil rich. I bet she and all of her associates have given all of their resources to the needy because they care so much. They would never allow themselves to be rich because that would make them evil. They will be the first to sign up for the government run system they envision. These paragons of virtue are sterling examples of selfless devotion to the public good in a non partisan fashion. We should all aspire to be just like them and be as generous and giving as they are in their words and deeds.

Anyone near retirement age should not be in the market with their retirement funds. Congrats on making the market work for you. I'm suprised you would speak so negatively of it when you've seen it work for you. I parrot no party line....did I mention one above? Sounds like you may be reading your own views into the health care bill as you did with my posting. And I wouldn't consider those words "immortal".

Our entire economic system is driven and reflected by investment funds that depend on the creation and movement of capital, whether real or imagined and is impacted soundly even if one is not directly invested in the market.

The party line - and not by views - are reflected in this statement:

The same one that has made me over a million dollars in my retirement fund in the last 25 years

I'll leave it to you to discern which one of us I'm quoting.

What? You've gone a little wacky now. Is your first statement supposed to represent the evilness of capitalism? Only a socialist would have a problem with it. That could be the party line of any major political party. Again, read the bills you are commenting on. The formerly proposed SS plan would allow younger people to put a minority portion of their SS taxes into a market investment account and it was optional to do so. My original point was that Pelosi's party expanded this to "privatizing" the entire system putting all of the SS funds at risk. Total crap, but now she is complaining when the table is turned and others are doing the same to her.

You have no argument there from me and I'm no fan of her's. Was there an important point you wished to make?

As for President Bush's failed proposal, the plan for reforming Social Security felt like Star Wars all over again. It was vast, faith-based shield that sounded as if it protected your retirement years. All you had to do was slip part of your Social Security tax into a private-investment account. Then your troubles were over. Life's little missiles would bounce right off.

Why the Star Wars comparison? Because private accounts are a complex and costly edifice, greatly oversold. No one has shown that they can actually work except for a small number of shrewd investors; as evidenced by what has occurred the past year.

Just the one in my original post......for Pelosi....."don't be doing no whining when people start throwin' your own crap back at ya!". Good night and thanks for your service.

Rob Scan - And please tell me when will California STOP re-electing Pelosi.

For Brad Melton:

The link for the health care bill is:

http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

desperate times call for desperate measures......when no credible response to the tidal wave of sensible questions can be mustered up then the tried and true tactic of smearing those who dare to question the infallible intellect of the elite who are soooo much wiser than the folks who will be stuck with their brand of stupidity that apparently has no bottom........

and now word is circulating that the same idiots who demonized the car execs for flying corporate jets to lobby for a free handout at taxpayer expense are going to forego their 500 million dollar outlay to buy their own set of private jets to get around in.....good solid logic yet one has to wonder if these morons cannot exert a miniscule amount of self control when filling out their taxpayer funded wishlists how poorly they will perform in regards to revamping healthcare......brain dead cadavers show more intellect than some of these losers.

Brad Melton: If I remember correctly from your previous posts, you work in the Health Care Industry, right?

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but don't you think that your profession might skew your point of view a little?

Lowered health care costs probably will mean a savings of money and therefore the loss of at least a few positions, right?

what all of these politicans miss is this...no one knows just what is on each bill they are debating,,all we get are snipets of what the media and a group of upset republicans cry about because they didn't think of it first. If they, congress, wants the fuss to stop then make all these bills public...let everyone see what they ,congress, is looking at...and then when they do get ready to actually vote on something, let us all see exactly what is in the bill they are to vote on,,let us all see with our own eyes that the bill is not fullof loop holes to protect the health care industry and cost us more money...do I trust them to do this,,,nope.

I do not eat granola because IT IS LOADED WITH SUGAR and this CA girl is health conscious.

I stand by the Pennsylvanians who are telling Senator Specter he better START ACTING LIKE AN AMERICAN AND VOTE NO.

Hurrah! My Congressman is having a town hall meeting tonight. I sent him a letter with my views.

You go Pennsylvanians. This CA Girl is BEHIND YOU!

I wish I could help you all. Pelosi has the biggest mouth on the planet.

Unfortunately, the hippies living in No. Cal LOVE HER. They really do.

I absolutely despise the woman but I don't live in her district.

Wish I could help. Lobby the folks at Haight-Asbury.

LmarcT and Skeeter

LmarcT - I chuckled at your commentary about news - ie, it is PR. I chuckled because I feel that the media DID NOT DO ITS JOB during the election. The media served as a PR vehicle for Obama.

You need to listen to Skeeter who is repeating what the majority of Americans are saying about this health bill. In fact, if this nonsense continues, it only solidifies Obama's place as a one term President.

I am not totally against national health care, but like most Americans, I don't want me or my employer taxed for it, especially when the majority of the money will go to people who don't contribute a dime in taxes.

karen

really so tell us the details in this health care bill that you do not like

You seem to have the right wing talking points but haven't seen a single detail

Same goes for your view regarding the election-- seems to me the media was still leaning right when they continued to repeat the nonsense about mccain being any sort of maverick

One last thought -- you claim the majority of Americans share skeeter's view point -- where are any details to support that -- or is that a new right wing talking point?

Un-American.?? Only if you disagree with her and her liberal point of view. I thought they worked for us, not the other way around.

I thought we all had freedom of speech and could voice our opinion. I guess only if it's liberal.

skiddy

you are missing the point

These mobs are not interested in debating anything they have one goal and that is to shut down free speech

There is a huge difference between debating an issue and just yelling and shutting down any discussion

They would first have to educate themselves as to what the bill actually says and most of this crowd is not interested in any real facts

These "mobs" are tired of being ignored. The Congress people are the ones trying to limit their free speech. "Political terrorists," "Un American," etc. I think the people are tired of trying to convince these people that maybe we know what's better for us than they do.

rbach

Like the Pennsylvanians who rallied this morning, I do not want to be taxed nor do I want my employer to be taxed for freeloaders who do not contribute.

While CNN is reporting that 80% of Americans want health care reform, PSHAW.

CNN's study IS HARDLY SCIENTIFIC.

If CNN's story were true, why in the world are so many people so freaking angry and are showing up at these meetings?

I passed one on Sunset Blvd. in Los Angeles this morning and they were almost in the street.

So Rbach - what makes you think Americans are so gun ho after listening to those who are not?

By the way, I am neither Republican or Democrat. I'm in my own party and I am only concerned with me and my family. That is our political party.

And... I am only too happy that policiticians listen to my party.

You are not invited rbach.

skiddy

yet again you have this wrong -- see there is no one trying to stop the debate except for the mobs that are being bused into these meetings-- they are being led by the insurance companies who do not want any changes -- you think I am wrong just go look at the insurance companies earnings reports, they are making hundreds of millions if not billions in profit

So showing up to demonstrate with signs is freedom of speech, showing up to have an honest debate is freedom of speech but showing up like thugs to disrupt debate on this issue is purely un-american something the birthers and tea party folks are very familiar with

Again ask a simple question why are none of the republicans having any town hall meetings? The answer is simple they are in the pocket of the insurance companies and do not want any changes

karen

Here is a fact for you and your ilk -- each and every last one of us are already being taxed to cover the expenses of "free loaders" as you put it -- see when someone with no insurance gets sick they do not go to the doctor since they have no insurance, they wait for it to get very serious then go to any hospital ER and get treatment and guess what we all pay for that -- plus we have to deal with over crowded emergency rooms

So where in HR 3200 does it say anything about you being taxed to pay for your "freeloaders"? Where does it say your employer will be taxed? I am assuming you must have read all 1000 plus pages of the bill -- I have

As for why are so many angry people showing up at the town hall meetings, just follow the money they are being bused in and aided by the health care insurance lobbyists along with the republicans who do not want any changes they are very happy raping the insured through ridiculous premiums

I have seen many polls and the vast majority of Americans want health care reform and believe it is past time we had it

Oh by the way good for you -- you are only concerned with you and your family -- sounds very "christian" -- so then if you and your husband lose your jobs and lose your health care you will not be burdening the rest of us with paying for any of your care -- that is good to know -- also be sure you do not take out any SSI or any medicaid or medicare -- we wouldn't want anyone thinking your were "freeloading"

So know that you have given a right wing talking fact-less point -- please go read the HR 3200 bill and then we can have a real discussion

Oh by the way -- I am very positive I am not interested in joining your party-- you can have it all to yourself

Pelosi, note; that I won't address her as mrs, miss or ms...she does not deserve a respectable TITLE of any kind...to call Proud Americans, Un-American is worse than the President calling people STUPID..what we have here is ; A BUNCH OF UN-PROFESSIONAL LEADERS MAKING A MESS OUT OF THIS COUNTRY...they are not doing or what is BEST FOR AMERICA !!!... and the American People, we're tired of all the B/S RHETORIC and POLITICAL PUSH & SHOVE OF THIS ADMINISTRATION...that is doing nothing for the American People..but bringing on more misery, money speaking..To The People of America....

rbach - you asked why Republicans are not holding town hall meetings..........are you not aware that Pelosi ordered them EXCLUDED from drafting this piece of crap legislation?

You go around accusing everyone of being right-wing extremists, yet YOU are the most uniformed person posting comments here. And you don't want a true discussion - you just want to rant your conservative-trashing rhetoric.

really chuck

seems you do not have any facts just the right wing nutter blather

Speaker of the House Pelosis never ordered anything of the sort -- that is an out right lie being spread by sheeple like you

If there were such an order it would be all over every last media site going, I know it and you know it

so why do you just propagate these lies?

I never ever bashed any conservative see if you were actually paying any attention you would see I am railing against those un-patriotic-un-American types the right wing nutters -- there are no conservatives in that bunch the whole lot of them are the birther types-- you know the ones who have no clue what conservative actually means

So you are wrong yet again I am open to discussion on the health care but am not open to these fringe lunatics highjacking the debate with their disruptive nonsense

Wrong, rbach - again. Repubs were not allowed to present any changes drafted, which the Dems did late at night. Not 'right wing blather' - fact. You just refuse to believe it. And you really ARE naive if you think it would be picked up by the media - which functions now as just a PR firm for Obama.

And I stand with my comment regarding your not interested in an honest debate. And excuse me if your comments were interpreted as bashing conservatives - it certainly comes thru that way....... I am not a 'birther' and don't agree with ANY of that.

O.K. liberals. Riddle me this. My wife's pay has been cut 10% due to the recession and loss of business where she works. Today she was sent home early because business was slow. Also today her employer made an announcement that he would be cutting hours soon due to sinking business.

SO, when the health care bill passes and people like him are FORCED to purchase health care for his employees, what is going to stop him (and many other small businesses) from simply laying-off people like my wife in order to balance the expense?

the colonel

O.K. right wing nutters riddle me this exactly where in this bill HR 3200 does it say it will force your wife's employer to purchase health care or do you just like spreading falsehoods and right wing nutter talking points?

rbach - I believe the Colonel may have been referring to the plan to impose a fee of 8% on employers that don't provide health care coverage to their employees. Or are you going to say THAT is a false interpretation too?

And don't give us that BS that you read the whole HR 3200 bill - nobody believes you. You're just an arrogant liberal jerk who's talent seems to be limited to spewing venom at anyone questioning this bill. EVERYONE feels we need health care reform, but this is complete government takeover........unacceptable.

.........that is a fee of 8% of PAYROLL, just to be clear...

chuck

Well to clear up a point first yes there is a fee to some businesses in lieu of offering a health insurance plan -- not a tax but a fee to not participate in offering health insurance to employees

here is the full text of that section of HR3200 -- you will see there are exemptions for small businesses

SEC. 313. EMPLOYER CONTRIBUTIONS IN LIEU OF COVERAGE.

(a) In General- A contribution is made in accordance with this section with respect to an employee if such contribution is equal to an amount equal to 8 percent of the average wages paid by the employer during the period of enrollment (determined by taking into account all employees of the employer and in such manner as the Commissioner provides, including rules providing for the appropriate aggregation of related employers). Any such contribution--

• (1) shall be paid to the Health Choices Commissioner for deposit into the Health Insurance Exchange Trust Fund, and

• (2) shall not be applied against the premium of the employee under the Exchange-participating health benefits plan in which the employee is enrolled.

(b) Special Rules for Small Employers-

• (1) IN GENERAL- In the case of any employer who is a small employer for any calendar year, subsection (a) shall be applied by substituting the applicable percentage determined in accordance with the following table for `8 percent':

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the annual payroll of such employer for the preceding calendar year: The applicable percentage is: 

                                                      Does not exceed $250,000                            0 percent 

                                Exceeds $250,000, but does not exceed $300,000                            2 percent 

                                Exceeds $300,000, but does not exceed $350,000                            4 percent 

                                Exceeds $350,000, but does not exceed $400,000                            6 percent 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

• (2) SMALL EMPLOYER- For purposes of this subsection, the term `small employer' means any employer for any calendar year if the annual payroll of such employer for the preceding calendar year does not exceed $400,000.

• (3) ANNUAL PAYROLL- For purposes of this paragraph, the term `annual payroll' means, with respect to any employer for any calendar year, the aggregate wages paid by the employer during such calendar year.

• (4) AGGREGATION RULES- Related employers and predecessors shall be treated as a single employer for purposes of this subsection.

so at best the colonel's claim is a partial truth and majority misleading and inaccurate as any intelligent person can see by reading the bill

I could care less if you believe I read the entire bill or not as a point of fact I have read it and obviously by your post you have not bothered to read it but have no problem blathering against it

As for your idiotic claim that I am just an arrogant liberal jerk -- granted that is obviously your opinion that is not based in any fact or by any stretch of any intelligent person's imagination So enlighten us as to how you came to that conclusion when in none of my posts I have come out in support of the bill -- in none of my posts have I mentioned anything that would be liberal -- If you are capable of reading and comprehending you can see I am indeed calling all the right wing nutter lieas just that lies -- they spew this nonsense without taking any time to educate themselves on the actual bill

By what authority do you speak for EVERYONE??? Are you a legend in your own mind? There are a vast majority of right wing nutters who do not want any form of health care reform because they are only hearing the lies from their right wing nutter talking heads -- minus all facts

So what details do you have from this bill that would suggest anything close to a complete government take over? That is nothing more than right wing nutter blather with no substance or fact

So truly what is unacceptable and NON-American and UN-patriotic is the ignorant ones hijacking the town hall meetings and stifling any debate on this issue

excuse me, if it is charged to get, or in addition to a product or service, it is a fee, if it is mandated or levied by a government entity for a law or ordinance for, non - participation, non compliance it is a tax or fine.

Pelosi is un-American

texan

well excuse me

here according to a "moderate" dictionary

• Main Entry:TAX
• Pronunciation: \ˈtaks\
• Function: transitive verb
• Etymology: Middle English, to estimate, assess, tax, from Anglo-French taxer, from Medieval Latin taxare,from Latin, to feel, estimate, censure, frequentative of tangere to touch
• Date: 14th century

1 : to assess or determine judicially the amount of (costs in a court action)
2 : to levy a tax on
3 obsolete : to enter (a name) in a list <there went out a decree…that all the world should be taxed — Luke 2:1(Authorized Version)>

• Main Entry:fee
• Pronunciation: \ˈfē\
• Function: noun
• Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French fé, fief, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English feoh cattle, property, Old High German fihu cattle; akin to Latin pecus cattle, pecunia money
• Date: 14th century

1 a (1) : an estate in land held in feudal law from a lord on condition of homage and service (2) : a piece of land so held b : an inherited or heritable estate in land
2 a : a fixed charge b : a sum paid or charged for a service

— in fee : in absolute and legal possession

So the fee in lieu of participating in giving employees health care insurance is a fee not a tax

positive me

OK any details to explain how you came to this conclusion?

1 : to assess or determine judicially the amount of (costs in a court action)
2 : to levy a tax on
3 obsolete : to enter (a name) in a list <there went out a decree…that all the world should be taxed

right and i beleive this is basically what i said. and meaning of a fee is? by the way the 14th century bit was a nice touch.

This administration is hollering about the screaming at the town hall meetings, yet Obama, Hillary, and Pelosi, as well as others in the admin. cannot hold back their feelings. They let it all hang out-lots of anger!!! Highly unprofessional...and frightening that people who cannot hold themselves together when dealing with the citizens of their own country, let alone those of other nations, are running the show.

Maybe the screaming and hollering will stop when congressmen and senators start listening!! To date they refuse to listen. They wont answer emails. They wont answer their door or their phone so people finally tracked them down at these townhall meetings. What did they think would happen after their constituents have been IGNORED for the last 6 months? Do they really think ACORN will be able to get them re-elected in 2010? I wouldnt sacrifice my lifes work for that clown Obama.

To date they [CONGRESSMEN/WOMEN] refuse to listen. They wont answer emails. They wont answer their door or their phone so people finally tracked them down at these townhall meetings. What did they think would happen after their constituents have been IGNORED for the last 6 months?

PatGu

I second your motion. That is exactly what the Pennsylvanians were telling Specter this morning.

WILL YOU LISTEN? WE ARE SAYING NO AND YOU ARE IGNORING US.

really

these birthers sent e-mails and never got a response -- really they went to their congress persons office and never got in-- they tracked them down -- really please such utter nonsense-- each of these town hall meetings have been advertised and are open to all -- just seems they are all being hijacked by the obstructionists blatherers of the right wing nutters -- stop yelling--- read the damned bill and be prepared to discuss details and alternatives -- if you can't do that much then just shut up

Wow, the pot calling the kettle black.

skiddy

an you direct this to whom? Is there any details you disagree with or are you just doing the right wing drive by?

You rbach. Same tactics liberals use. If they can't make their point, shout down the other side.

I still cannot believe the Democrats in Congress elected her to be their leader in the House. I don't know what they were thinking.

Those folks are tired of being ignored, which they obviously are. You liberals think you know what's best for us, we don't think so.

Also, seems like just last week I read (in MSNBC, believe it or not) where she is not even allowing the Republicans to speak at the end of the day, something the Democrats fought for the continued right to do when the Republicans were the majority in the House. Don't you know they'll sure want that right back when it swings back.

wow skiddy where to begin

you come along and put you value less two cents comment in "Wow, the pot calling the kettle black."

see there is no topic to discuss, there is no idea to work on nothing but a drive by shout from you to stop any while discussion

If the folks being bused into these town hall meetings can't be bothered to read the bill and have valid questions/concerns and just blather on with nonsense talking points handed to them by the lobbyists then it is they -- and you who are doing any shouting -- but a very typical right wing nutter move to claim someone with different points of view is the bad guys --

It is partisan folks like you who are making the health care reform into nonsense, petty personal jabs at Speaker Pelosi -- the real issue is the "brown shirt" tactics of the birther types that are disrupting free speech

You also jump real quick to label me as a liberal -- although I do not think there is anything wrong or bad with liberals, I just don't happen to be one

If folks like you are not capable of taking off the partisan glasses and looking at the actual facts then there is nothing further to discuss

I have read the bill, and I don't like it. It's the double standard of the liberals I don't like also. I don't like anything about the bill. And by my reading it, that's alot more than alot of the Congress people have admitted to doing.

Skiddy

So no details from you -- you are against any and all health care reform? I suppose that means you do not believe health care needs any reform --- is that true?

The reality is our present congress, that is counting both houses, falls just left of center meaning the majority of lawmakers in office today are moderates

I suppose if a person was far, far, far right then a moderate would appear to them to be liberal---

Have you read this bill? I repeat, I have. This is not what the people need. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

My problem is that the Congress needs to listen to their constituents. I say again, they do not know what's best for me. Obviously they know what's best for them and the unions. If it's good enough for me and you, why won't they sign up for it.? Doesn't that bother you just a little bit?

Yes, with a 60/40 split, it probably does fall just left of center. But the 60 that have the super majority sway way left. I can do the math.

skiddy

you seem lost for facts -- assuming you have read and understand the hr 3200 bill -- your claim it is not what the people need is just nothing but your opinion-- you can easily claim it is not what you need or want but what on earth dictates you know what the people need???????? just more blather with no factual basis

You have not given a single detail of the bill that you do not like or want -- you just say the entire bill so one of the following must be true

1 you really didn't read it

2 you didn't understand it

3 you made your decision based purely on right wing partisan blather

I fully agree that whatever the final health care bill is the number one item must be it replaces any health care of all elected and government officials

there are only a handful of liberal democratic senators the are a handful of conservative democratic senators and the rest are just left or just right of center (also known as "moderates") it would be a right wing thing to say that each and every democratic senator is a liberal just plain false and an outright ignoring of real facts

rbach, I don't have the time to go into all the details here, just let me say that you can try all you want to make me sound ignorant,etc. and try to baffle me with your BS, but it won't work.

We disagree with this bill.

Skiddy not trying to make you look ignorant -- and not trying to baffle you with anything-- just trying to have a real conversation on the details of the bill and not just hearing the right wing BS

just pointing out how ridiculous it is to not agree with anything in this health care bill for there are many very good ideas in it and to dismiss it entirely out of hand with no details says a lot about where you stand on this and many other issues -- seems like if any idea comes from a democrat you are automatically against it -- just a sad way to be going through life

What do you do, rbach - just go from post to post digging at folks, trying to make yourself SOUND intelligent? I guess when you're insecure or lack confidence, that's the only way you can satisfy your ego. But you sound foolish doing it.

Hey ! I heard that the House of Reps has a NEW plan - also named T.A.R.P. which is:

TAKE

AWAY

RETIREES

PENSIONS

Probably will have strong WH support - can fund HR 3200...

rbach, look at 1.11 post above. There are too many holes in this bill for it to pass as is. And if it's so great, why won't Congress and the unions go on it? That really stinks to me.

I agree, reform is needed, but I think it begins where a Congress full of lawyers will never go. One major reason health care costs are as high as they are and going higher is shister lawyers and clients who sue for everything. That needs to be stopped, but I don't think lawyers are going to make laws to take money out of their own pockets. Some sort of tort reform is needed.

chuck

what do you do just try to add insults and add no value to the discussion but rather take in the right wing nutter lies and live in your fantasy world?? Oh yes by you doing the normal right wing nutter change the topic stunt you prove the true value of your posts -- zero

skiddy

Did I ever say there were no holes in this bill -- no I did not -- did I say I supported the bill or didn't support the bill -- no I did not

Am I asking for details, you know specifics that can be discussed rationally -- yes I have

Have I spoken out about the lies regarding this bill that are being spread by the mindless minions of the right wing nutters "you betcha"

I agree with you that tort reform is needed -- specially after bush reformed it in favor of big business and the lawyers -- remember the changes in bankruptcy for one where big business can still walk away from debt yet the little guy must continue to pay the credit card companies?

I do not believe tort reform should be in any way part of a health care reform bill -- heck this in itself is a huge piece of legislation -- I do believe tort reform should be very high on the agenda to control ridiculous court cases -- oh my coffee was too hot -- since when should dumb people be rewarded for their stupidity?

In one quick post, you've insulted liberals (50% of Americans), women (50% of Americans), and Californians (the most populus state in America)... I think that only leaves... lets see... you! Republicans or whatever you are are so clever.

She could care less about what the founding fathers would think-she'd have them jailed for their behaviour if they were alive to day and sent to Guantanomo Bay.

When did our society begin to be defined by political parties, right/left, liberal/conservative. We are all of one nation and opinions are personal decisions. I have discussed the health care issue with many who are opposed to the idea and they are from all walks of life and political beliefs. Yes, a few think it is a good idea. We are all entitled to our opinions and the press should be fairly covering the story. Most of those attending town hall meetings are not activists. They are concerned citizens and it is terribly unfair for the press and those who favor more govt health care programs to label them as anything other than an American that cares about their country.

And many of those people are just showing their frustration (which many of us have) with the government and their representatives It's a tea kettle situation because it isn't just about health care, but many other issues that are just coming to a head. And people are fed up with Washington We do need some safety net as many of you know the only reason you have health care is because of your employer; even the Cobra government subsidized is too expensive for some of us who are laid off =you have to chose between food and shelter or medications-and one serious family illness will put a hard working American family out on the streets. Most of you know that that is a fact not to be denied. This is too major an issue to rush thru like the Stimulus Package was.

If fools like Arlen Spector wouldn't imply things such as not reading the bill and needing to act hurriedly....makes people very nervous. Rightfully so!

LmarcT

I have only insulted 2 people. Pelosi and you.

Have a nice night.

You dont have to be too clever to see that Pelosi is a delusional thieving old hag.

To:Smart_Voter-874902

I am a 40 year Union Member and the same could be said of our Union Leaders. They are selling us out just as Our current Goverment is. We are an American Union not a Socialist Union. We must stand up and take back our Country and our Unions !

This is our Union !!

You work for us !!

We pay the bills!!

We will be heard !!

Smart, she's ignored the masses? What do you thing the so-called "Republicans" are doing? What, listen to the masses and do what the masses want unless you... what?... unless you don't agree with the masses? So sending hit squads to disrupt townhall meetings is "listening to the masses"? More like drowning the masses out and ignoring the masses.

Good job.

There's got to be a better way to get your points across!

Healthcare success or failure is in Republican hands. I hate to say so, but you have made it so.

To:Smart_Voter-874902

We were once a Proud , Hard working (Country and Union) who stood for a fair days pay for a fair days work. We have become sheep led leaders who have only enriched themselves, raised their own pay, retirement and benifits--Sounds like our Goverment !

Unless We change both we are headed to the demise iof Both.

pdclinton..... I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with you. I agree with your points.

LMarcT doesn't get it...... can't get past Rep. this, Dem that..... what is going on is so much larger, yet he continues to regurgitate the talking points he was programmed with.

Like I said, I'll stand with you on the bigger issues. For the record, I once held a union position for several years long ago.

Cheers.

Lmarc: "There's got to be a better way to get your points across!"

Tell that to Pelosi...and Hillary, while you're at it.

There were many millions of us that wrote in by e-mails & by Letters--"That we asked our Congressmen to oppose giving any Banks, any Bail-Out Billions-!!" Guess what!? Most of us were not even answered by 'so-much' as a "Thank You for your Concerns-!!" Since we have no representation--I guess we'll be voting for "New Replacements"-!! That will be an 'American-Act'-!!

Don't forget Prof. Gates-he can outscream 'em all. LOL!

And just what do you bring to the table regarding debate and discussion??? More liberal name calling and hate.

I'm sure Obama will send you an autographed Hitler-esc picture soon. It's in the mail with your welfare check and food stamps.

Bartman

The previous post details the problems with a National Health Care program. At what point does it become a Government run life. If there's a national policy then there are government intrusions where the government tells you what you may or may not do in your personal life. Doesn't anyone find that a bit much? Yes, everyone should know whats good or bad for them, but not everyone chooses to do what's right. Do we need government forcing them? Doesn't everyone also have a right to be stupid?

Why are people so eager to turn their lives over to the government. I don't understand. I'm over sixty years old and I never thought I would see the day that America died, but I think I'm witnessing a slow and painful death. Be very careful what you wish for people, it very well could become a reality and then it's too late as you can't put toothpaste back in the tube. A Nanny State sounds good and it sounds secure and harmless, but with a Nanny State comes someone who does your thinking, do you really want that?

The problem with the townhall meetings is that the leaders do not know whats in the proposed bill anymore than the attendees. So instead of getting straight answers, they get Government doublespeak. They want to pass this without even understanding what lobbyist or aids or whomever has loaded the bill with. People have the right to be angry. This legislation changes everything, they don't know how much it will cost and they don't know the problems it fixes let alone the new problems it will create.

Call me a mob, call me a Nazi, it doesn't matter, I'm still going to voice my concerns and if it takes raising the decibel levels a notch or two so be it

You got that right! Protesting is very American! And, in case you didn't know, it's our Constitutional right!

I'm damn proud to be an American and fight for what I believe in - and it's not this healthcare bill they're trying to pass without reading it first.

Amen George! I want to have my freedoms for myself and my daughter. If I want to drink myself stupid...so be it. If I want to eat myself into a blob...so be it....why do people think the government knows better? How did they end up wanting to give the government control of thier lives? Instead of teaching personal responsibility we are teaching our kids to be depend on the government.

I sncerely hope that you are able to get the help you apparently need

Looks like I'm not the one who needs help, but you may want to consult a physician about getting your head out of Obama's azz.

"LOL" like you gay liberals like to use! Have a nice day, Bart!

And she's a mother.

That's beautiful.

Bartman:

You make a comment about not bringing anything to the debate and then all you do is slander people for expressing there opinions. BTW learn how to spell or at least use the spell check on this site. But looking at your comments you would like the government to mandate that this site run a spell check for you.

lol

Wow! and the libs talk about hate crimes! I wish the media would cover the physical violence that is taking place over the mere screaming of people who don't want the US to turn into a USSR.

It's a hard thing to understand unless you're a Harvard lawyer LOL. All I can say, is that much of the language in it is too broad, meaning that it is left up to interpretation as to what certain terms mean and how things will be implemented....the federal government's interpretation, that is. Even if this administration doesn't abuse the stuff in there, someone down the road surely will.

Here's a link to the bill if you haven't seen it:

http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

I couldn't agree with you more. Unless congress & the Obama family are forced into their own disastrous health plan, I fear it will be an abysmal failure. Also, Nancy Pelosi is a socialist, and what could be more un-American than that?

Socialist when it comes to us, but try and take away her & hubby's millions then you will never see a more devoted capatalist.

It seems to me that the liberals are opposed to capitalism until it applies to them and their individual wealth creation?

Amen, Suezq. I'm sorry, but I think I know what's better for me than the government.

Why is it every time Pelosi opens her mouth the room smells like someone just farted?

And I hear obama is calling out the black panthers for security......Sheesh whats wrong with civil discourse?

Where has anyone been uncivil bart? Opposition is not bad. You had eight years to hone opposition to an art form and we thank you

What about the purple shirted members of SEIU going to the town hall meetings and roughing up anyone who opposes the democrats health care plan? Sounds to me that the democrats have called out their strongarm goons.

Appears she hasn't read the bill yet either because what she said aboout the down syndrom part was untrue about the bill. I'd like to know what kind of health care she has for her child - gotta be expensive and will be more expensive as the child gets older-State of Alaska paying for it? If so then she can't relate to the rest of us. Who can read 1000 page bill and remember what all is in it. I can't believe our politicians really know everything in the bill and that is why it should not be rushed thru-We need something in place but not too fast.

You are right on target. Isn't it just plain old common sense not to rush into a big decision-especially without:

1. Getting input to find out what ELSE can be done to cut costs w/o giving the federal government too much power over the people and over private industries.

2. Knowing all of the particulars of the change.

3. Considering how it could positively AND negatively effect everyone.

4. Clearly defining all terms and clearly spelling out what limits will be in place to protect citizens against abuse.

Yep...Obama wants us to bow and blindly follow while he and his cronies turn our country into a socialist state and his followers are indeed blinded by his charisma.

Was going to download the bill but gotta clean up my hard drive to do so. Not leaving it up to "interpretation" and fear mongers to tell me what is in it. Getting e mails already from people who have not read the bill but so and so said this about s ...... about the bill whether fact or fiction. We all need to read it

I have read it (hr3200)even though it is a pain in the buttocks to read.

used to be, and will be again.

Dave,

According to the last IRS statistics the number is closer to 48%

48% of Americans pay NO Federal Income Tax either because they don't work or they if they do work, they qualify for the Earned Income Tax Credit which means they get back 100% plus of what they had withheld.

So, Obama has 48% of the people already supporting anything that sticks it to those pesky Rich People. Why would they care if this has to be funded with higher taxes, they don't pay any now. They get FREE health care without having to care about who pays for it.

Dave my grandpa is feeling the rift of that crap and he has worked his azz off all his life to be able to enjoy his money. Now he has to pay every quarter or he is delinquent. HE PAYS EVERYTHING himself and now he feels he is going to be taxed to death and will loose everything. You work your whole life to be forced to pay for young, able bodied, lazy, baby making people to live a comfy free lifestyle they dont deserve, sheesh whatever happened to integrity? BTW I am a 24 year old single mother who pays for everything! It is possible to make a life for yourself without mooching off everyone else but then again that means you would have to do the work yourself.

Are you serious? I don't claim to be of great intellect, but you would have almost retarded not to see the importance of this. Do us a favor OverStep and never reproduce. I mean that, NEVER!!

No, the reason they are having trouble selling this to us is because it's crap legislation that will bankrupt us without fully addressing the problem.

You're right about it being crap legislation, and doesn't address ANY of the problems causing excessive health care cost. I'm just saying that people would be more willing to listen to them if they weren't so busy thumbing their nose at us.

willbilly

That is why there is so much tension at these town hall meetings. How many of you e mail your reps and never a peep out of them EVER. And then they want our opinion??SAY WHAT

If screaming is all that will get their attention, scream LOUDER!! There is nothing unAmerican about screaming in protest when leaders won't listen to reason...as a matter of fact, that is our history!

Logical-well said.

It is obvious that the Healthcare Bill protesters are storming town halls because they are angry at being lied to, being taxed without representation, and are fearful of losing their existing healthcare. Look at their picket signs--they are homemade. These Healthcare Bill protesters are genuine.

Now, take a look at picketers who are in favor of passing the Heathcare Bill. Most of these people are carrying signs that have been graphically designed and mass printed. Smells like "astroturf" to me.

I know for a fact that I didn't buy posterboard, markers and paint for the Healthcare Bill protesters. But I'll bet that those of us who are taxpayers paid for the signs that the picketers are carrying in favor of the Healthcare Bill. And, the picketers are most likely getting paid for their time, as well.

Hey! That may be why the unemployment figures improved! Part of Obama's stimulus plan?!? So, let's keep finding things to protest. Maybe most of the Dems' constituents, special interests staffers, and the employees of printing companies all over the country will remain employed. With Dems in power in Washington, there will always be plenty to protest. "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely."

SC

Yes it is obvious the nutters storming the town hall meetings are angry -- it is not very obvious who is lying to them other than the lobbyists and republicans who are organizing these raids on democracy

As for taxation without representation -- let's see I really don't have time to educate you on just how off base that statement is--- you need to learn some factual history -- start by looking into the original Boston Tea Party-- all citizens of the US have representation ---

Nice bunch of ultra right wing nutter crap you are blathering about though -- as usual all bluster and nonsense and zero facts

rbach, I must have hit a nerve. Good. You didn't try to refute that Obama and Pelosi have sent Astroturf to the the town hall meetings because you know it's true. Facts: The protesters need only look to our President to hear lies and to Pelosi to be accused of being un-American. Pelosi needs a muzzle and a leash. You are wrong as usual in your myopic view of what is going on in the town hall meetings. The Democrats are behind the organized "raids" on democracy.

The Boston Tea Party was a protest against British rule trying to force colonists to buy something they didn't want. The colonists didn't want to buy the tea because they would end up paying taxes on a product that supported a company that was a special interest of the British government. Any time our elected officials fail to honor the will of the people and are more concerned with taking care of their special interests as are Obama and Pelosi and some Democrats and Republicans before them, we have the same lack of representation. We are being asked to pay taxes for a health care program that the majority of people do not want. I am in favor of health care reform, but it needs to be handled with transparency and complete honesty. Obama, et al tried to push the bill through without adequately informing the American people how they would be affected. Obama is too irresponsible to lead our country if he treats something this important with so little forethought. The bill needs to be read by our representatives before they vote it in, they also need to understand it before they vote. There is too much room for interpretation of the bill as it reads now. And, like the British imperialists, our representatives are punishing the American people for their dissent. It is a subversive and cowardly punishment they are handing out by calling names, hurling accusations and vilifying people when they speak out or approach their own representatives. It is much more dangerous than how the British responded; it is fascism. Look it up and do your history homework. By the way, I am a registered Democrat who votes bi-partisan.

How typical of you to keep the Democratic tradition of name calling. I'm glad that you didn't take the time to "educate" me on history according to rbach. It would be revisionist, no doubt, and would have a fascist slant, probably favoring the British imperialists' continued exploitation of the colonists. On the other hand, what you know about American history wouldn't take very long to recite. Call me names all you want, you are supporting fascists by defending Obama, Pelosi and the other crooks and idiots that support them. Are you actually American? Or are you just a pathetic excuse for a sheeple who believes everything the Democrats tell you? Wake up.

Sc

No you didn't hit any nerves -- am sick and tired of sheeple just repeating the right wing nutter lies as you have done

You have zero facts you speak general right wing nutter blather with zero details or facts and expect people to believe your wild claims-- the sheeple will the people will not buy your nonsense

You really need to educate yourself on history-- the biggest issue prompting the original Boston Tea parties was a simple one -- taxation without representation -- since each and every American citizen has representation in our country the entire idea of the modern tea parties are yet another bust for the right wing nutters -- it was ill conceived on ignorance and continues to be propagated on more ignorance of any facts

So other than the typical right wing nutter blather -- let's see any facts you may have-- so far you have just proved you have none or at the very best a very poor understanding of actual history

As far as your ill formed opinion I am a democrat -- well just another non factual statement from you-- I have been a registered non declared for a few decades now -- care to try more nutter factless claims??

rbach- Thank you for your continued response. It proved that I actually did hit a nerve. However, you are completely obtuse and nearly incoherent. I did not say that you were a Democrat. You need to remove the leftist filters from your ears and eyes and start paying attention. Maybe you don't know how to read. You certainly do not know how to write. You are the one who is blathering away by not giving any concrete rebuttal to the points I have made previously. In addition, you continue to spew blog-arrhea amounting to very little more than petty insults.

FACTS:

Obamacare supporters showed up with signs that were obviously mass produced. Where do you supposed they got them?!? I have not heard anyone else even mention these people, most likely astroturf, and their signs in any media report, in any blog, in any conversation. I noticed the signs. I pay attention and I question what I see and hear.

I have heard Obama lie to his country. We all have heard him lie. And, he tried to push the bill through without giving adequate information to the American people. We all know it.

I have heard Pelosi call protesters un-American. Haven't you heard her say it? Hasn't everyone heard her say it?

You are not looking at the root cause of the Boston Tea Party which is a ruling class refusing to give a voice to the colonists, insisting the colonists participate in something the imperialist leadership doesn't have to participate in, and then punishing the colonists for rebelling thus sparking a revolution. Which similarities to what is happening today do you not grasp? The colonists didn't declare themselves independent when they first arrived on this continent. They waited until they could no longer tolerate being ruled and abused by an out of touch regime. Unfortunately, we elect our out of touch regimes whether they be Democrats or Republicans or some combination. We are fed their campaign lies and promises. It is in the fact that we are constantly fed lies and propaganda by both Republicans and Democrats that we are not represented. I believe, as do many other Americans, that false and deceitful representation amounts to no representation.

The modern Tea Party movement is symbolic and a tribute to our founding fathers. Again, it is symbolic. Try not to interpret symbolism literally. This movement is born out of decades of irresponsible, inexperienced, corrupt leadership culminating in the economic ruin of our country. I think most of us, myself included, held out hope that Obama would be different; we hoped that he wouldn't lie to us or spin things or try to hide what he wanted to accomplish like so many leaders have done in the past. In his campaign and during his inauguration, his public image was purposefully aligned with that of Abraham Lincoln, who is revered in our country as the imbodiment of honesty. What is particularly heinous is that he is dishonest at a time when we need his honesty the most. No wonder we are on the verge of a revolution.

I can tell it is pointless to argue with you because you attack without refuting what is said, you insult using the most tired, uninspired and idiotic Dem-speak; and you prefer to tow a party line but say nothing remotely constructive or insightful. Your pathetic rants are virtually without merit. Since you couple your skewed ideology with a poor grasp of the English language, you render your own opinions insignificant.

I suggest that you do some reading. It is one of the best ways to learn how to write. Maybe we'll get a break from you inflicting yourself on other people and wasting their time. Good luck!

SC

I only respond to point out your total lack of any and all facts

Believe me you could not possibly hit a nerve -- see in order to hit one of my nerves the person would have to be informed and have actual facts and proof of their ridiculous claims -- you have neither

I can also tell it is pointless to have a discussion with you since you ignore any and all facts and just spew right wing nutter talking points so unless I can get dope head limbaugh to tell you facts you will never hear them

I suggest you learn to read and sign up for some classes that teach actual factual history then perhaps you can come back for a discussion -- otherwise I will just continue to point out you have no facts and your opinions are not based in any reality

rbach, I gave you facts. You are the one who chooses to ignore them. You have not refuted anything I have written. In addition, you have not pointed out specific errors with my brief statements about American history. Furthermore, you have given no examples of when I have ignored facts. Therefore, I must conclude that you know that I am right. I will accept that you are covering your embarrassment with an offensive display of childishness and leave it at that. Although it is a dubious honor, thank you for the "rbach" stamp of approval.

Kudos to you. Your writing has modestly improved. However, you still have a long way to go in being able to effectively communicate in writing. At least your most recent post is somewhat coherent. Thank you for thinking of other people for a change. I appreciate your effort.

It is laughable and it mystifies me that you would suggest I learn how to read. I presume it was your desperate and pathetic attempt at an insult. That comment just removed the last minuscule amount of your remaining credibility. By stating you had any credibility in the past, I am being generous. I prefer to give everyone, even you, the benefit of the doubt. Do you always project your inadequacies onto other people? Projection behavior indicates a problem with processing reality. You may want to have it addressed.

I apologize that I did hit a nerve. I really shouldn't torment people like you who are psychologically fragile and intellectually inferior. But, the opportunity to have some fun was too difficult for me to resist. Thank you for entertaining me and amusing me with your rants! Unintentionally, you and people like you are the Republican Party's allies. Way to go, rbach.

sc

I am glad to see you get enjoyment from spewing nonsense -- minus all factual statements and you stick to your same failed story--

I will continue to point out your birther type blather as just that -- nonsense

You act like a typical phony "christian" type -- apparently your ilk must feel like you hit a nerve in someone else to justify your failed position on life-- glad I can help you in your fantasy

Just look around the democratic allies are your ilk -- you know the birthers, the tea party low-info folks-- the right wing nutters -- yes you have a long list of folks that will boost the democrats in the near future

way to go SC you just keep repeating your nonsense-- but rest assured no matter how many times you spew your bs it will still remain bs

No kidding. The town hall meetings are evidence of that.

As for the clunkers program that my kids will have to pay for, the cost will ultimately be around $100 per American family. That wouldn't be the end of the world if it weren't for the fact that they have HUNDREDS of programs that collectively will cost many THOUSANDS per family.

Then there's the unintended consequences. The people who have clunkers are people who can't really afford to make car payments, so the program is essentailly encouraging irresponsible lending, and will likely result in an increase in auto reposessions.

Plus, the program will soon run out of money, and auto sales will drastically drop, because the precedent has been set that you get paid by the government to do what they want, and people will simply wait for the next govt handout before making another car purchase.

Armageddon is already here a few more years of the statuesque in health care and there won't be any health care for anyone as the system is about to breakdown, unless your rich of course and somehow Jackson I don't think you are.