Not an idiot, sir or madam. Just a thinking American who can see spin and who can read between the lines and understand why a story is placed where and when it is placed by the enabling media. Which no doubt upsets unthinking people who are upset when their sandbox is disturbed and the dog poop in the sandbox is exposed to the light of day. Unthinking people have no substance to offer, because they can't think (and hope others can't - sorry about that) and merely name call, such as the word, "idiot." Thank you for the word "idiot" to identify yourself and no, I will not be jumping on board the spin machine. Have a nice day. I'm off to work now.

Be proud. Between you, the half-brained and vicious Sarah Palin, and the other half-brained people that listened to her, we may be removing a provision that is obviously beneficial to the people AND saves money besides. End-of-life planning is a good idea even if it were to cost more but THIS SAVES MONEY!

Regarding spending... yes, you are correct that we are in deep sh!t due to the deficit. But before we decide yes or no on healthcare, we need to see all the details of a single, clear, and well communicated bill and the financials behind it. We then need to compare that against doing nothing and/or doing no-cost incremental fixes. We then need to make an intelligent decision based on facts... you spreading your lies like death panels does not help.

There are indeed "Death Panels" today. They pose as health insurance companies who deny coverage for some surgeries, who deny medications for some patients. They pose as our elected officials, who are currently denying health coverage to 50 million Americans. They pose as Americans who show up at Town Hall Meetings, screaming that they don't want health care reform, and therefore are supporting the denial of health care to dying people who desparately need it.

Yes, indeed, there are "Death Panels." Health reform would do AWAY with these panels, not create them.

Greg, I absolutely agree. Good post.

Absent an end-of-life directive, you may lie in a hospital bed as a vegetable for weeks or months being revived time-and-again at no gain for yourself and at unbelievable costs. Without a directive, even siblings and blood relatives cannot control that situation and must stand by and watch or fight for your end of suffering. And the anguish involved is unbearable... I've been there, just as many of us have.

To take the only viable solution to this issue out of the bill because of a hair-brained Palin comment is sickening.

people don't understand - we have death panels NOW no matter what your age

call your insurance company "pre-authorization line" right now. Tell em you are sick. If you manage to tell them the correct key words they will put your symptoms in an alogrhythm on a computer program to determine the cheapest way to treat you. If you don't tell em the right words they'll tell you to take a hike or an aspirin.

It's all about the cheapest way to take care of you and make the most profit for them.

People die every day in every city in the USA from lack of access, denials, disapproved treatments, medication errors, neglect, in-hospital infections, early discharge.

The passionate rhetoric is well done. However, like all rhetoric there is more affect than reason to what you write. To try to keep this in the realm of reason, there are several assumptions that you make that are simply not correct. First off, healthcare is a privilege not a US Constitutional right. It would be WONDERFUL if we all lived in a false utopia where everyone had all the housing, food, clothing, healthcare, energy, transportation and every other good thing they needed or desired, but that is not the real world. From both spiritual and material perspectives we know that the poor will always be with us and that there will always be sick people, and both are heartbreaking and no one who is in their right mind wishes sickness or poverty on another human being. But the proposal on the table is simply poorly thought out (no surprise, it is being rushed because of considerations of the relative levels of political capital) and is a crippling cost at the wrong time. America could not really have afforded this utopian fantasy back when it was called Hillarycare and Americans thought they were making money in the dot.com tulip mania of the 1990s. America certainly cannot afford this utopian fantasy when America's economy is so deeply struggling. Academics and economists say one has to go back decades to the Great Depression to see anything resembling this great recession. Why RUSH this through NOW? Why not WAIT until 2010-2011-2012 and have a reasoned and more reasonable bill? The fact that the policy capital may or may not be there is NOT a good enough - or a good - reason to rush this through now. Second, while it is fashionable now for pro-public sector blocks to knock the insurance companies (and any of us who have read the old classic, "The Screwing of the Average Man" about insurance companies is not exactly an insurance cheerleader) I must say that I would prefer the quality of person I've spoken with on the phone at the insurance companies to the sort of person seen at the DMV or USPS, and frankly the same comment applies to the elected officials you decry, many of whom are just the same clerk with power mentalities up the bureaucratic food chain. Why wouldn't you rather have a local DOCTOR making the healthcare decisions for you and your family? What is the reason for your great faith in a distant policy wonk and then a distant clerk reading from a rushed guidelines book based on a rushed and not-good health bill? Finally, isn't it rather disingenous for you to pretend that one side of this debate is any more staged or unstaged than the other at the Town Hall meetings? Anyone who would pretend that is simply dishonest, and is also trying to sweep under the rug the UBIQUITOUS and MASSIVE OPPOSITION to this wrongheaded and bankrupting healthcare bill. And to save anyone their time in further namecalling, I repeat that certainly no one wants to be sick, see anyone sick or stand by helplessly as they, their loved ones or anyone suffers. I certainly don't. That is a cheap and dishonest dig. However, I also know that if there is ever going to be an expansion of healthcare it should be undertaken slowly, deliberately, soberly and with a BIPARTISAN (actually TRIPARTISAN - why are the independent/libertarian sector not welcome at the table?) INPUT, debate and writing. To highjack healthcare, which is one-sixth of our GNP, and make it one side's political football - whichever side that would be - is just WRONG in either case. And I know that 2009 is the WRONG time to take on a massive new entitlement program. Let's get some permanent JOBS created first, to generate taxes to PAY for more healthcare first, don't you think? WHERE is this money to come from?

If the real intent is to A) save cost, and B) provide care for the uninsured and those with preexisting conditions there are cheaper options.

1. Pass tort reform as a priority to reduce the frivalis law suits and stop DR's & from over prescribing. Financial experts predict this will save hundreds of billions/yr.
2. Elliminate the govenment restrictions that don't allow insurance providers to freely compete accross state lines. apply some of these saving the Obama administration claims they already have to reduce cost.
3. Based on the above cost savings (returned to the people as health care tax credits - and not spent by congress!) Congress can mandate insurance providers cover the uninsured and those with existing conditions.

With over 80% of americans happy with current healthcare (and its the envy of the world), why are we in a rush to scrap it? fixing it incrementally starting with cost saving measures is a lower risk path, and much more deficit neutural.

Now, this makes damn good sense, and confirms my suspicions that Palin was way off course, and acted irresponsibly. I am changing the PDDP to the PMP, Palin Myth Party.

Mad as Hell it's plain and simple re-distribution of wealth.

Excellent post, Elaine...

It's great to know that free, independent thinking adults are still the majority on this issue... although, they may be the "silent" majority, at that.

Those who accept whatever the media and the goverment tells them are in the minority... although, they are also the ones who speak the loudest out of frustration and to get the most attention.

Like the old saying goes..... the squeeky wheel gets the most grease.

Isn't it funny Elaine, every country you mentioned, has our outsourced jobs there? Thanks for NAFTA Mr Clinton. Ok back to the topic at hand, having a PLAN for your demise is not a bad idea. I have, do not resuscitate orders,a living will, and living trust(we all die), and I think that is needed.However, having long term plans on your money, insurance, wills, transfer of deeds etc, etc, etc, is a great idea, and planning for your death is not evil. Where Obama made his mistake, was not knowing where it began i.e. Death counseling, and why this provision was added per the Medical field. "IF" Obama had bothered to read the bill in the first place, and had real understanding of it, (as well as the Congressmen, and Senators), then we would not be where we are now! So, here's the lesson, READ what your trying to shovel to the masses first, maybe you will have something educated to say for it then? I have to admit, nice try though Obama, blame a state for your P.O.S. bill, good one! MSNBC, you really have no shame do you? We the people still aren't buying this BS program. FIX what is already in place! the golden rule is K.I.S.S. .I don't want to see my taxes surpass my paycheck, and to any of you that honestly think your taxes wont go up for this monster , well you live in dream land!

If they truly drop the end of life consultation out of the bill, me and many others will be VERY disappointed!

The squakers at the town hall meetings geering the poor woman in the wheel chair are nothing but self centered President hating boobs.

The Dems and President Obama better get their act together on reform and the public option.

First of all it degrades you to call 1 certain person an idiot, and to call all citizens who dont want more gov intrusion ,waste and wealth redistribution President haters is very childish, period.

Second, my mother of 76 years stated that she already had her end of life 'counseling" with her doctor and attorney, and stated her wishes in all circumstances of a health emergency. Didnt take a panel of liberal appointees of Obama to get this done. Its availiable to every person who has basic common sense! So NO the gov has NO RIGHT to get between a doc and his patients, period! And it isnt even a "new" idea. its common sense, and your own "responsibilty " to set up your end of life plans! Of course we have the opinion of the sheep in here that want to have the gov do everything for them under some "rights"? ha ha grow up and take responsibilty for your own decisions in life period!

BOOT EM ALL in 2010!

No one is even mentioning that it also says that at the "counselling" that the patient should be encouraged to pay their taxes up front.

I thought about getting a living will, but now I am afraid to. Because if you do and even if you are not necessarily at deaths door it gives the doctor, or government permission to go ahead and give you that little push.

More Obamamure by the Obama daily misinformer news media. Look up "Your Life, Your Choices" in the VA documents. Obama put it back in to health care for our veterans and it sure as hell pushes veterans toward ending their life.

If they will do it to our veterans, they'll do it to all of us.

“The Death Book for Veterans: Ex-soldiers don’t need to be told they’re a burden to society” by Jim Towey in today’s (August 18) Wall Street Journal says,

Last year, bureaucrats at the VA’s National Center for Ethics in Health Care advocated a 52-page end-of-life planning document, “Your Life, Your Choices.” It was first published in 1997 and later promoted as the VA’s preferred living will throughout its vast network of hospitals and nursing homes. After the Bush White House took a look at how this document was treating complex health and moral issues, the VA suspended its use. Unfortunately, under President Obama, the VA has now resuscitated “Your Life, Your Choices.”

We downloaded this document directly from the Veterans Administration, and the content suggests that both family finances and depression–a non-terminal illness–could constitute Lebensunwerte Leben, or “life unworthy of life.” Smoke is generally indicative of fire and, although HR 3200 says nothing about mandatory end of life planning, euthanasia, or anything else similar to Germany’s Aktion T4 program–the euthanasia program that served as a precedent for the Holocaust–we have shown that there is indeed fire to go with the smoke. “Your Life, Your Choices” is simply more evidence, and it even suggests that war veterans with depression consider themselves a burden on the society that sent them to war.

Here is a screenshot of Page 21 of “Your Life, Your Choices,” downloaded directly from the Veterans Administration. As stated in the Wall Street Journal, this document was withdrawn when the Bush Administration saw content that could have come straight from Aktion T4, but the Obama Administration put it back into service. Note that it invites our veterans to define even non-terminal conditions (such as being in a wheelchair or having depression), to which few if any living wills apply, as “Lebensunwertes Leben.”

LMarcT, several high profile speeches have spoken of government panels making decisions about reducing costs by limiting healthcare to what - in their subjective judgment, from a distance, in the abstract - constitutes "necessary" care. So any "myth" actually started there in Washington. And an equal or greater problem with HR 3200 is what it DOESN'T say rather than what it does. Basically the bill is just more government incrementalism, only in its scariest context ever. This bill will let the government enter the healthcare field and opens the floodgate to eventual total government control of our healthcare system. The current bill is vague, open-ended and does not spell out the terms and conditions of care that an American will receive and doesn't say what a persons rights would be. Why would anyone hand their healthcare future over to the government without knowing exactly what they will get in care, what they can't get in care, and then making their decision whether to support the revised and specific bill from there? So if you are saying Americans must make Congress come up with a very specific, concrete and detailed bill before anything passes, then I agree with you that that is the right approach. And that level of certainty and careful thought will take time, not be something that can be done in the next 115 days or less.

What Elaine, and many others like her seem either incapable or unwilling to comprehend is that working Americans with health insurance are ALREADY PAYING for those who are unemployed and/or without health insurance. Health care providers need to make up the difference for the thousands upon thousands of uninsured people who come to them for care each year across the United States. They pass that cost ON by charging more for care to the insured. AND that care turns out to be more expensive because it's often performed on an emergency basis and/or when the ill person is far sicker because they waited to get care. Like it or NOT, these are facts.

Please also think avout THIS quotation from an article which appeared on the MSNBC site yesterday: "Unlike all other wealthy nations, the United States lacks universal health care. Most health insurance is obtained through employers, and almost 50 million of the 300 million Americans are without it." (That's 50 MILLION, folks!!)

.....Health care may not be a "right, but how SAD is it that the greatest Nation on earth does not see the need to care for the health and well-being of ALL it's people while EVERY OTHER wealthy nation does, nearly all of whom have greater longevity rates and lower neonatal rates than the United States. (Maybe "greatest" is a misnomer??)

End of Life Counseling is not the reason this bill is an attrocity, Elaine Put it best, Now is not the time. People have to start looking at this deabte as what is good for the American people as a whole. People consistantly ask me what if it were my child or my parent? Well that kind of thinking is selfish! When this is a national problem and not just my families and myself. As a nation what is our best interest. Improving a system already in place (with the only reason people are opposed to it are costs and pre-existing conditions,) or starting all over from scratch. Why not fix the few areas we oppose or isn't working. No, instead our elected officials would rather scrap that all together and start a massive government overhaul, that if implemented incorrectly from the start will have catastrophic consequences. I for one think America is great (we just had a few too many cases of greed & corruption rear it's ugly head,) I am not ready to change the way the entire country opperates, by giving control to a different sector of greedy corrupt people. Simply implement a few regulations, if you are so mad at Bush for deregulating "Big Business", simply reregulate them (I know reregulate is not a word.) Don't just take them over, villify them and punish them to the point they take their jobs overseas, or shut down all together.

Change for the sake of change never works in the long run. If it's going to pass it needs to have Doctors, Hospitals, Pharmacies & Patients in mind not just 1 or 2 those.

How about the French worry about France, the English worry about the UK, and Canadians worry about Canada? And let Americans worry about America, after all , when you apout those 'world rankings" they do NOT consider MANY important aspects of healthcare when making up those "rankings"/. If your population makes an average of 17,000 dollars a year and you pay 9000 of that to the gov for your healthcare, it isnt by any means "free".

But to sum it up so all can understand; Hundreds of English, French, and Canadians pay for travel and expenses to seek healthcare in the USA! ZERO U S citizens go to any of these "wonderful" socialised countries for their important healthcare issues! So now whats their excuses for these FACTS? Arent any plain and simple.

The problem is the open-end wording in the bills and the big hand of government overseeing it all. Not just in the end-of-life planning section, but in almost every section. Suppose 15 years down the road, there is not enough money to cover health care for everyone (NOT hard to do considering we have no money for it NOW), do you not think the government would pressure physicians to skimp on care? Especially in the context of penalizing doctors and hospitals for "wasteful spending"?Or doctors, concerned that the government would lower their pay to cut costs would not steer the elderly and terminally-ill to take the path of least resistance while giving them a sales pitch that the more expensive options would hurt them rather than help them? It would be nice to believe that the government and physicians would never have evil intent, but that is not the world in which we live.

Consider this article, in which 60% of UK doctors called for rejecting care to certain people citing costs:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576704/Dont-treat-the-old-and-unhealthy-say-doctors.html

I fully understand the concept behind end-of-life planning and agree with it. There SHOULD be discussions among families to determine the wishes of every family member regarding what measures a person does or does not want taken and the results of those discussions written up in a legal document. However, I do not trust government or physicians whose livelihood rests on whatever a government-appointed panel deems to be quality care without wasteful spending to counsel me anymore than I'd trust the government to advise me on what to put in my last will and testament.

to be permitted to 'pass away" naturally versus being kept alive by expensive machines in the fashion of Dr Frankinstein .. that is the question...seems like a no brainer .

I would dare say that those who are protesting the loudest about health care reform and who are claiming that it's too expensive and that it isn't a right are those who have health care insurance for themselves and their family and they feel very confident that their coverage is secure and reliable. I highly doubt that any of those who are speaking against health care reform are those without coverage or those who know in detail just how the health care insurance companies work and what they do to people who get sick. It is really sad to hear people trying to rationalize and explain all the reasons why it's OK for this country just to look the other way and not attempt to get everyone covered. Interestingly enough, it's for the same exact reasons why the health insurance companies deny treatments today - it's because of money. I am under no illusions as to the cost of this project and while I think a lot of the costs can be covered by the reallocation of poorly spent dollars that are already into the system, I have no problem paying additional tax if it will ensure a properly funded health care system that will benefit all of us and not just some of us. This is a priority folks - there are very few things in life more important than health care and access to medical services when you need it. I would trust a government run system any day over a for profit corporation who's primary interest is not my health, but their bottom line and their profit margin for stock holders. It's this over consuming concern that has put us in the mess we are in now.

Well, I was going to say this article should be required reading for every American so the many people yelling Death Panel can see how they were duped by Sarah Palin and others.  Unfortunately, it appears that people with closed minds will read and refuse to comprehend, as did Elaine.  Let's all get our pitchforks and run after the Obama administration.  Elaine, people like you are making your best effort to destroy this country. I know people who do not have health care and they are doomed.  That is a fact.  Repeating horror stories made up by members of the Republican party is outrageous.  If you read the proposal, as you suggest you did, you will know that advising patients of their options is a far cry from killing them.  Don't be ridiculous.  The Republican party moves against healthcare and other initiatives come from fear of change and fear is born of ignorance.  Better to let the country slide into total collapse then to take power away from the wealthy Republicans who got us into this mess in the first place.

I recommend that everyone read Greg-281912's comment. He is absolutely correct. I have lived in Germany and in Holland, where everyone is either insured by a government program, or if they so choose, by a private insurance company.

The tax brackets in both of those countries are exactly the same as those in the US.

If you don't believe me, you can go to the Dutch or German government websites, use your google translator, and see for yourselves. The politicians of one the US political parties 99% bought and paid for by big corporate money the other one is 40% bought and paid for. Guess which one is the 99%er?

uuum, Mad as Hell, how could 80% of Americans be happy with current healthcare if we don't even have that many insured and able to get it?

You liberals and or ignorant people just don't get it; Rationing and yes death panels are in use in both Canada and Great Britain and probably more countries with socialist health care. And because both of these systems are going broke,the rationing will increase.And because health care is "free" it is completely unaffordable,and these systems are nearly bankrupt and ours is almost there and we haven't even started our debacle yet.

We need to stop the lawyers from all of these huge,mostly undeserved lawsuits against doctors and pharmaceutical companies.And we need to get all of the ILLEGALS out of our country and out of our hospitals.And finally,open up the insurance to interstate writing and increase competition.

THE GOVERNMENT IS THE PROBLEM....NOT THE SOLUTION!!

Elaine, Health care is not a Constitutional right? What part of LIFE, LIBERTY, and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS excludes being healthy or alive for that matter! Your real concern is that you will have to pay for someone elsehealth care. NEWS FLASH you are already paying for others without insurance. Why do you think the hospital charges you so much for everything from a aspirin on up? It is to pay for all the people without insurance or money that come into the emergency room. By law they have to help them. (BTW it is the right thing to do). It is also the reason your insurance premiums are so high.If health care reform will destroy America why did it not already destroy Canada or Massachusetts.

Nothing motivates people more than fear. The RNP knows this well, as they have amply demonstrated by their continual use of fear-mongering tactics, the latest being the patently absurd "death panel" charge.

The sad thing is that those tactics work so well on so many people.

What a silly species we are.

90% of you have not even read the bill, if you can call it a bill. It is all about how to control the American people, and to kill the seniors off. I have asked my doctor about and they are very much against this bill as it is to them loaded with death panels in may ways. I've got a copy of this HR 3200 and it has at lease 13 new agencies that can cut your health off when they decide that you are costing to much money, that does mater what your age is period.

Elaine that is the most well put, thought out response I have seen on this topic. Looks like you have your facts as evidence, so that is sure to inflame the libs. And could the author of this artice at least have made an attempt at objectivity???? You know all you need to know about how this article will read by the headline. Ridiculous.

Elaine,,,,you really need to get your head out of there and smell something different. When you suceede in doing so read more slowly, better still show us where it says that "there will be a death panel".

Elaine, I think the issue described in this article is pretty well defined, and to the point.

Then the uproar began, capped by Palin's "death panel" remark. Gundersen officials and town residents were aghast. "It's totally absurd," Frank said. "It's just the opposite -- it's giving you a choice of how you want to be treated."

I don't know why anyone would listen to this kind of rhetoric. The whole point, as I see it, it that this would give people more control of their treatment, AND it would most likely SAVE money.

What's the problem with that? I don't see it.

td3k: You are wrong. I am uninsured b/c my employer cannot afford to offer it and I cannot afford to get any. I have med. bills now which I am struggling to pay. HOWEVER, I DO NOT want the fed. government overseeing the ENTIRE industry. Expanding medicaid would work for me, as I am only about $200.00/month over the income limit. A co-op could work for me if there is no preexisting condition limitation. THERE ARE MORE WAYS to offer health care for all than big government. I'd LOVE to have health insurance, but not at the cost of freedom.

Elaine-771403 Thank you...very well said.

I am not drinking this foolaide either, the liberals have been talking about the death panels for weeks now but most of them have not read the bill. Nor do the realized or care what it says, or what isn't... they just want it, just like they wanted everyone to own a home… that went well didn’t it.

We haven’t even been given the bill for what the Dems have already spent this year. I predict that next year the economy drops again, jobless rates skyrocket and more businesses fold. Why? Because of the taxes that are going to go up... congress has never saved or cut spending and so they will have to raise taxes on most Americans to pay for all this spending.

I am predicting that the average taxpayer without children, you know the ones trying to save money to retire now that the kids are out of the house and out of college, will be in the 50 to 60% range. This isn't free... there is no free health care, there are no free cash for clunkers programs, the Gov does not have it's own money...it is our money, the one's who work and pay taxes and no one should have a right to take it from us and turn around and give it to someone who has not *** Earned*** it... You get money for working and producing not for putting your hands out.

OMG soon there will be no one left to spend any money as the government takes all our discretionary dollars away, tax us into prosperity? How does that work again? Is that how you liberals will stimulate the economy.

Wake up!

'Unwitting' - definitely Sarah Palin.

Just wanted to respond to Mirac, who said that ZERO Americans are going to countries like England, France, etc. for their healthcare issues. Possibly true - but what many people ARE doing is going to countries like India or Korea to get expensive procedures done because they are considerably less expensive (even figuring in travel costs). Google "medical tourism" some time for the facts.

And Elaine, while I don't agree with everything you said, at least your response was intelligent and well thought out. Having worked in hospitals for many years, I would absolutely like to see some reform of the health care system. However, I'm not sure that rushing a health care bill through is the thing to do. It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation right now. Because this bill will increase taxes and government spending, it would seem that this is not the best time to be attempting to enact it. On the other hand, BECAUSE of the economic situation, more people than ever are uninsured, and would be helped by passage of this bill. I would just like to see Congress put the brakes on a bit and give more consideration to how health care reform would work before passing this bill.

And to everyone saying they don't want the government to make decisions on what medical care they can have - the health insurers are ALREADY doing that. As someone said above, try calling your insurer's pre-authorization department and see what happens.

If doctors can practice law, does that give lawyers the right to practice medicine? If you think this is ludicrous, guess again my family just went through this nightmare. With clear instruction from our father in the form of a "Health Care Directive" we had to fight an emergency room doctor as she "advised" our father of his legal right to change his Directive and proceeded to tell him what she thought he should do legally. After several minutes of listening to her spew legal advice, I asked her for her bar number, she continued until the family threw her out (which took quite a long time).

Problem was my father wrote his Health Care Directive (Living Will) when he was of sound mind, with an attorney who went through every scenerio presented in the legal document - at the time this "bedside doc/ttorney was advising him he had been diagnosed with moderate dementia and was in severe pain.

BYW, my father's five children (who had Health Care Power of Attorney) followed his wishes to the letter!

Oh and yes I am reading the proposed H.R. 3200 bill - a long read but somebody has to do it!

Health care may not be a "constitutonal right", as per ol' Elaine above, but it is the right thing to do. That is why Medicare/Medicaid was set up, for one. Sure the Medicare folks pay into it - but NOT enough...which is why it will be broke in about 2 years. Medicare has old people who get sick on its rolls - the HMOs sure as heck don't want to be forced to take the old ones - most retirees could not even begin to afford HMO premiums, of course. Do the HMOs want Work Comp, Tricare/VA - of course not, those people are sick and injured, would take away from their bonuses. A gov't option for the PAYING public needs to be rolled into all the ALREADY existing gov't run health care plans - that we already pay into anyway.

Our family of 4 HMO, with dental, costs over $12,000 a year - the employer pays half. With a $5000 deductible. So when the doc charges $103 to $143 a visit, the HMO pays about $40, we pay the rest. The 2 times I tried to get into my doc this year, she was booked, and I had to see the doc du jour - same price, but a PA would have been more than adequate to treat me. I hope there is a government option, because we will flush that HMO in a heartbeat and switch - although the employer will probably beat us to it. Why wouldn't they?? For profit medical care is just the HMO management making million dollar bonuses to keep down costs - read: Deny you coverage, &/or pay slow. This should make Americans sick:

Here is from our local paper: "Stephen Hemsley, CEO of United Health Group, earns a salary of $3.2 million, plus UNexercised option of $744.2 million (Forbes). These profits are just for one health insurance company...United Health Group reported a net income of $859 million in the SECOND quarter...155% increase." Hence, I will forever refer to HMOs as "blood sucking".

With over 80% of americans happy with current healthcare (and its the envy of the world),

Wrong on both counts.

If 85% of people were "happy with their health care" this debate wouldn't even be taking place.

I didn't know having lower life expectancy , and the United States has the second worst newborn mortality rate made the uS "the envy of the world."

Mad as hell:

With over 80% of americans happy with current healthcare (and its the envy of the world)...

I'll tell you what is making me "mad as hell." The entire problem with America is ignorant and proud of it people spouting total trash.

Here is a FACT for you sir or madam:

The World Health Organization ranks US health care 37th in the world, behind such third world countries as Morocco, where people don't even have hot water in their houses! That is a FACT to oppose your ignorant rhetoric.

We are not even in the running regarding decent health care.

Our health care system is the envy of NO ONE in the entire civilized world.

I make it a rule not to attack individuals, but people spouting "America is #1" rhetoric because their mommy or their 1st grade teacher told them so is what will insure that America isn't even on the charts.

It's rather difficult to be shown up, isn't it? At issue is the 'death panel' espoused by your esteemed republican, Palin, and carried on and on. A lying interpretation from the outset, as is the rest of the republican spin. We need health care reform.

Yes, we need jobs here in the U.S. We also need the labor force that can compete with other countries. Did you know that during Bush's regime, Citi employed 1,200 comp techs from outside the U.S.--they were rushed through the immigration process. Maybe it's time for the republicans to follow the verse, "Get thee behind me, Satan, you ain't working for us anymore." President Obama is trying to get this country back on its feet. And the best way is to invest in the U.S., as President Obama has mandated. Get with the program. And Thanks for all you do.

Nice "Red Herring" msnbc.

"A red herring is an idiom referring to a device which intends to divert the audience from the truth or an item of significance."

By equating the "death panel" with the end of life physician counseling, it diverts attention from the true "death panels", which are the "commissions" that will decide on the "cost effectiveness" of medical procedures, especially for the elderly, before approving any treatments.

I guess we shouldn't expect anything else from msnbc, since they are little more than an apologist for the new Administration. They should probably register as a lobbyist for the DNC.

This article is further proof that Palin and her followers have absolutely no regard for the truth. Her sole interest is in scoring red meat political points with her stupid followers. She is a liar, plain and simple. Democratic party loyalists should all hope that the GOP nominates Palin in 2012.

In the near term, Democratic party loyalists should collect evidence on republicans like Grassley who bought in on the hideous and eggregious claim that Obama advocates death panels. They should not get away with this type of low-life, deceitful politics. Republicans' deplorable tactics and lies such as "Obama wants to teach kindergardners about sex", "pals around with terrorists", and the whole "Joe the plumber" charade contributed to the republicans' downfall in 2010. I siincerely hope that they are punished for these actions and continue to be punished until they abandon them and return to advocacy of conservative principles.

Elaine, I've noticed one thing...you can not only "see" spin, but you also create your own.

As for the article, all I see is a hospital trying to defend the people it cares for vs. the politicians who would create their own spin to achieve their own agendas regardless of what's best for the American People.

This will end up costing the U.S. a fortune, and not accomplish anything because of the same old politics that are so embedded in this country.

The government should stay out of the healthcare business. Pure and simple. The government should stay out of our lives. Pure and simple. There should be NO government panels of anykind when it comes to healthcare decisions. Yes to Freedom. No to socialism!

For those of you with kids in public schools, I want my money back.

I am sick of having to pay for other people's education.

I figure I pay about $40 a month in taxes into the public school system. I've been working for over 40 years, so that's $19,200 that I have literally turned over to educate other people's kids.

So, for those of you who are against govenment programs, you must be against me paying to educate your children, so, WHERE IS MY $19,200?

I expect each of you to pay me back. Please make contributions to your favorite charity, let me know, and when the total is $19,200, we will be even.

Elaine-771403

By reading your arguments I feel you really do not understand the (5) proposals being put forth on health care, you said any reasonable person would want to have their health care decisions between you and your doctor, well these various bills do not change that and right now as things are your doctor must get permission from the insurance company for yours and his decisions, you say health care is not a right, in that statement you give clarity to the type of nation you in vision and that is the nation we have now, unlike most of the industrial world who believe all their citizens have a right to health care and they spend less then us on health care yet cover all their citizens, If your response to that statement is we have the best care ! think again because we don't and I have some knowledge in the subject from living under nation health, you also say why can't we wait ? I suggest you go to the OMB and look up what health care will cost this nation in 10,20,30 years the upward scale is frighting. By the sound of some of your comments you think the government should not be involved in Health Care, Banking, Financial institutions....I say to you the fact that government has not been involved in these areas is why we are in this crisis, deregulation of the financial market and banking and energy and health has allowed corporate American to suck the wealth from this nation, and the country my farther and myself grew up in no longer exists, not because of government intervention but because the lack of intervention. If you believe that the Insurance industries and Corporate America will look out for your interest, I suggest you look around and tell me you really believe it, All this is not just about you its about all of us in this nation, but maybe that's the problem we have evolved (or descended) into a nation of self serving, self indulgent, greedy, and soulless individuals who lack any compassion or concern for our fellow country men , women, or children or for the world in general. You know you really don't have to worry about the health care plan, it has been denigrated into a gutter discussion that has nothing to do with what has been proposed and all about the evolving or descending persons I described above, with all the appropriate propaganda. By the way you probally didn't notice, most people probally didn't either as the media would rather show some mindless idiot screaming at a town hall meeting than show the thousands of people who crossed state lines and slept in their cars to go to the free medical clinic's staged in LA, and I believe Virginia (could be wrong on the state) after treating over 3000 in (4 days) they had to start turning people away, oh I forgot, like you said health care is not a right, you should go to the next one and let people know they have no right to care, if you do not want to talk to the adults you can go over to the children and tell them.

How do you think insurance companies decide what proceedures to cover now? By your reasoning, it's better to have a "death panel" (which is absolutely untrue) at each insurance company who decides what to cover that will make them the most profit than to have a commission made up of experts from both public and private sectors (read the bill) who sets standards for these insurance companies to follow in order to offer higher quality of care for less cost. It also makes things less costly for health care providers who will no longer have to figure out the cost schedule for each insurance company. Ironically, it will help make health care operate more like a free market economy and encourage competition and innovation.

And why is anything other than Fox News biased? You

I find it curious that Gundersen has a chain of funeral homes around Wisconsin.......

As a nurse, I can tell you how important end of life counseling is and how much time a doctor and a nurse can spend on it with a patient. How many of you would spend hours at work and not be paid simply because there is no money? How many of you have to watch families struggle and cry because they didn't do end of life counseling and have to second guess what your loved one wanted?

All of you complaining that the government shouldn't be a part of health care have such a deep seeded hatred for anything Obama and Democrat that you would cut your noses to spite your faces. Don't you realize that insurance companies are the worst in deciding who lives or dies? Do you know that insurance companies have panels of doctors that decide who gets treatment and who doesn't? Don't you realize that you pay for the uninsured through higher premieums and through "socialst" programs like medicare?

If 1/3 of Americans paid for the program at $300/month, the entire country could be insured and would out cover the projected 1 trillion dollar cost by 3 to 1? And that is if only 1/3 paid. What a bunch of greedy and unfeeling people we are to say, "I will take care of myself and my own and I don't want to help anyone else."

Uh ... it is the spiraling COST of health care that is going to make things worse!

Some people just don't comprend. This has to be fixed! If it doesn't, no job is going to support your need for health care!

Do you get that?

Elaine-771403

The above comments were from reading you first post, after reading you second post one of the statements you said is this should be done with bipartisan or even tripartisan cooperation, that's assuming you have reasonable men and women who can have reasonable discussion and understand process, since Newt Gingrich and his merry men to today's Republican neocon ( I will not call them conservatives, that would be an insult to conservatives ) representatives we have not had the people capable of process which requires bipartisan cooperation. And until we look at health care, education,transportation,energy and environment in the humanities viewing window instead of the failed American business model of dividends,commodity's,credit default swaps,derivatives,bottom line short term concepts, lacking future vision or long term strategies with long term stability, nothing will really change (for the better).

Here is the pertinent section in the HR3200 bill (one of five currently being worked on in congress). I suspect that the people who accuse others of not reading the bill are actually guilty of not reading the bill. There is no death panel here or anything leading to a death panel, simply a description of what would constitute an End of Life consultation which would occur between a patient (their family if they desire) and their medical health care provider (doctor, nurse practitioner, or physician assistant) no government official involved. It clearly states that an End of Life Plan could express a desire for full treatment to the patient and that the health care professionals would be required by law to follow this order. Let's actually read things rather than tell others to read them (as though the writer actually has done the reading, which in this case obviously did not occur, or if you did actually read the bill and found that, as you put it, “the "death panels" really are in there”, perhaps you could have the courtesy to document that – prove it I mean ). Anyway here's the section referred to:

SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION.

The term 'advance care planning consultation' means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following:

''(A) An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to.

''(B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses.

''(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.

''(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning, including the national toll-free hotline, the advance care planning clearinghouses, and State legal service organizations (including those funded through the Older Americans Act of 1965).

''(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.

''(F) An explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders, which shall include—

• the reasons why the development of such an order is beneficial to the individual and the individual's family and the reasons why such an order should be updated periodically as the health of the individual changes;
• the information needed for an individual or legal surrogate to make informed decisions regarding the completion of such an order; and
• the identification of resources that an individual may use to determine the requirements of the State in which such individual resides so that the treatment wishes of that individual will be carried out if the individual is unable to communicate those wishes, including requirements regarding the designation of a surrogate decision-maker (also known as a health care proxy).

The Secretary shall limit the requirement for explanations under to consultations furnished in a State—

• in which all legal barriers have been addressed for enabling orders for life sustaining treatment to constitute a set of medical orders respected across all care settings; and
• that has in effect a program for orders for life sustaining treatment described in clause (iii).

(Clause iii) A program for orders for life sustaining treatment for a States described in this clause is a program that—

• ensures such orders are standardized and uniquely identifiable throughout the State;
• distributes or makes accessible such orders to physicians and other health professionals that (acting within the scope of the professional's authority under State law) may sign orders for life sustaining treatment;
• provides training for health care professionals across the continuum of care about the goals and use of orders for life sustaining treatment; and
• is guided by a coalition of stakeholders includes representatives from emergency medical services, emergency department physicians or nurses, state long-term care association, state medical association, state surveyors, agency responsible for senior services, state department of health, state hospital association, home health association, state bar association, and state hospice association.

A practitioner described in this paragraph is—

• a physician; and
• a nurse practitioner or physician's assistant who has the authority under State law to sign orders for life sustaining treatments.

A consultation under this subsection may include the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining treatment or a similar order.

A) For purposes of this section, the term 'order regarding life sustaining treatment' means, with respect to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to the treatment of that individual that—

• is signed and dated by a physician or another health care professional (as specified by the Secretary and who is acting within the scope of the professional's authority under State law in signing such an order, including a nurse practitioner or physician assistant)
• is in a form that permits it to stay with the individual and be followed by health care professionals and providers across the continuum of care;
• effectively communicates the individual's preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care desired by the individual;
• is uniquely identifiable and standardized within a given locality, region, or State (as identified by the Secretary); and may incorporate any advance directive if executed by the individual.

The level of treatment indicated may range from an indication for full treatment to an indication to limit some or all or specified interventions. Such indicated levels of treatment may include indications respecting, among other items—

• the intensity of medical intervention if the patient is pulse less, apneic, or has serious cardiac or pulmonary problems;
• the individual's desire regarding transfer to a hospital or remaining at the current care setting;
• the use of antibiotics; and
• the use of artificially administered nutrition and hydration.''

TheSecretary shall include quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that have been adopted or endorsed by a consensus-based organization, if appropriate. Such measures shall measure both the creation of and adherence to orders for life sustaining treatment.

Last paragraph: "TheSecretary shall include quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that have been adopted or endorsed by a consensus-based organization, if appropriate. Such measures shall measure both the creation of and adherence to orders for life sustaining treatment."

consensus-based organization is the panel appointed by the fed gov't to oversee the entire health care system (referred to WAY up from the end of life counselling section).

Right, squirrel......AND, please note that the word "practitioner" is not preceded by the word "health. The "practitioner" could and probably would be a government selected bureaucrat with no more health knowledge than an aardvark.

squirrel: You should stop and consider the obvious contradiction in your earlier post. You state that you are without health insurance and you do not want government controlled health care because it will somehow impede your freedom - and then you say you would be happy with just an expansion of medicare!! That is a total contradiction. Medicare is the same as a government public option - it is exactly the same thing. So actually, I think you got it wrong in that you somehow have totally misconstrued what the health care reform legislation is attempting to do by listening to what others have told you that it is going to do. It is not going to impede your freedoms in anyway unless of course you are referring to the freedom to go bankrupt if you continue on your current course.

Unless the spending goes to an endless republican war for oil RIGHT?

Then it is okay to spend, spend, spend. (oh yeah, and lose a bunch of young people willing to defend our country) If people can't afford health care they should die???? WTF!

God, I can't believe there is even a question whether or not to completely change healthcare! Screw your neighbor, I guess!

RossJ,

Thanks so much for your service as a nurse and your great post!

Absolutely everyone should consider end-of-life counseling. In my opinion, anyone who doesn't have a Living Will has absolutely no respect for their family or friends, or life itself.

Isn't it odd how people LOVE the idea of taxpayer's paying for other people's new cars and new houses, but GOD forbid helping a sick person without insurance.

Devil's Son said "NEWS FLASH you are already paying for others without insurance". Well but are we paying the estimated cost of Obama care? I think you will find that the cost we are paying now is also covering undocumented workers (illegals)...why is that. Why do I have to pay for folks who are in my country illegally...why not ship them and their problems home by donkey cart not air travel ... that cost to much. I can't continue to take care of all the worlds trash... Mexico has lots of money, only problem is that only a small percent of the popultation have it... there is no middle class. When some one serioulsly injured in Mexico the family will try to get them to the US for treatment... they get turned away at home. Even rich folks from Mexico who need life saving surgery or care come to the US and pay for it? I worked in clinics on the border of Texas and at a burn center in Central Texas and I can tell you... we pay for it... but why do we pay for it? We would send citizens home but we had to hang on to aliens because if we DC them they might not come back for wound care and we couldn't have that... so they stayed admitted at $6,000 dollars a day (your money) because the administration was afraid of being sue by an illegal alien who failed to follow up for treatment... it happened before...hospitals get sued by illegal aliens and win millions of dollars...can you believe that..and who paid for that, the hospital? No, we pay for it the cost is transferred to us in the form of higher medical insurance. The jurrys think its free money so they give it away... jury selection is good, no one with an IQ above 40 is allowed, no one with a job or an education is on one either. Think about it... do you go to jury duty?

Truth/logic, you cannot just make things up and present them as fact. You said "You liberals and or ignorant people just don't get it; Rationing and yes death panels are in use in both Canada and Great Britain". Where do you get this information? From Palin? It simply is not true. I have family in Canada. They have extended family in Great Britain. Don't you think they would know? Don't you think the world would be up in arms if these two countries were killing off old people? See Terry's posting of a section of a proposal. Let's discuss facts, not supposition.

BCinFL

Spare yourself, this has nothing to do about health care, Truth/Logic have no interest in health care only political propaganda, having lived under national health in England and on the continent, I know this is all bull, this is and has always been about a minority party who has lost their power in the government because of not concerning themselves with deficits, justice,oversight,protecting the American people from Financial and corporate institutions that have robbed this country blind and outsourced decent wages and jobs, The only attempt at any health care revision said party did was do create tremendous deficits to the government in the prescription drug bill in 2002 or 2003 by not allowing the government to bargain the price the government pays for prescription drugs, this was no mistake it was inserted in the house bill by Tom Delay from Texas (the guy who never met a lobbyist he didn't like, if they had the payoff), Its all politics and every one should remember how we got here, this adminstration didn't bankrupt the nation or give the American people phony budgit deficits like we have had for eight years, this adminstration didn't give us bills like the Graham,Leech,Bailey act, or the Commodity Modification act or the Enron loophole all the bills that created and allowed for this crisis to happen, So save your breath trying to convince small minded people with only a degrading style of propaganda that scares seniors, and I assume the children will be next, because that is all they have ,...no ideas...,no solutions...and no other goal but to return this nation back to corporate and financial institutions and their lobbyist.

Something is fishy about this article to me. The provisions which apply to compensation for doctors who consult with patients regarding their end of life wishes are not the death panels people have been referring to, this is a smokescreen. If the laws change, and your doctor gets now gets paid to advise you on these issues, then who is the "death panel" in this case? You and your doctor and any family you include in the discussion! What is so scary about that? Nothing at all. Will eliminating those provisions eliminate the death panels that people are concerned about? No. End of life planning and compensation is one of the few parts of this whole thing that needs to stay, it's a great idea, it makes a lot of sense. Of course doctors in general are against it, they get paid by the number of procedures they perform. If you don't wish to be a vegetable for a few months before you die, then you are taking money from their pockets, naturally this induces a defensive reaction.

The media needs to be made to stop using misinformation and fear as a tool for control of the masses. They intentionally confuse this issue. We know these provisions have nothing to do with the death panels we are concerned about, quit talking circles around the issue and address it in an honest and straightforward manner. Quit trying to make imaginary divisions between us by intentionally mislabeling our concerns in order to offend those whom we debate with. And soon please before we get tired of being talked at like idiots.

Now we know that Sarah Palin not only cannot read, she cannot comprehend! Not much of a surprise. She also doesn't know when she is being duped by her own party.

Regarding the issue of health care, it boils down to this. The current system is ineffective and inefficient and needs an overhaul. Not to admit this and address this is economic suicide. No doubt the costs will be high and no doubt the final plan will need to be tweaked so that it effects many important and necessary changes at a price we can afford. (Keep in mind that none of us will agree to everything in the plan or be happy with the cost, no matter which political party we belong to.)

Also, let's wait until all of the proposed plans in their finished form are on the table for review and discussion before we succumb to hysteria. We would all be better off directing these energies to asking the important questions and following the debate.

truthhurtssometimes

Thanks, intelligent posts are desperately needed, we all must establish a premise to have constructive conversation.

Mary Kay-1313770

Ditto...

To Newsvine participants:

The Capitalist is censoring me by deleting comments that are 100% appropriate.

Please stop this, Capitalist.

Let the "free market" of ideas flourish.

td3k: I did not contradict myself. There is a HUGE difference between Medicaid and a health care reform package which gives government total control of defining quality of care for even those not on the national plan, advising doctors on what treatments they should or should not give, forcing people to go on the national plan if the government decides their employers plans don't meet their definition, etc. If there were no difference between medicaid and the health care reform plan, then they WOULD just expand medicaid.

You are the one who does not know what you are talking about, as:

I was talking about medicaid, not medicare,

I have read the bill myself, I researched the Obama-Biden plan before the bill was even hastily put together, and do not rely or even listen to Fox news, Limbaugh or any of that junk.

I am not on a course to bankruptcy as I work hard, do all I can to pay my bills and take care of my family, and am working toward a graduate degree. If they would expand the income guideline for medicaid by a few thousand a year, I could have coverage TEMPORARILY to see me through until I am in a position to either work for a company that offers insurance or pay for it independently.

Politicians are by-and-large only concerned with their own interests, so NO, I don't trust them to COMPLETELY RUN every aspect of health care in this country. All they need to do is regulate the insurance industry to fix the majority of the problems, but instead they want to regulate every employer and every citizen.

You are the one who does not know what you are talking about, as:

I was talking about medicaid, not medicare,

Medicaid |ˈmediˌkād|
a federal system of health insurance for those requiring financial assistance.

Medicare |ˈmediˌke(ə)r|
a federal system of health insurance for people over 65 years of age and for certain younger people with disabilities.

Good luck to you in your studies and I hope you can secure some insurance. I think there are good politicians and bad politicians - just like with any other group of people on this earth. I believe our form of government is the best but I do not believe it is perfect. I do believe it can work for the best interest of our country if we want to make it work. I don't see government as evil - I see it as a force that can do tremendous good if we will wield it for that purpose. Corporations and capitalism are not evil either - but they are not the best model for health care where the primary objective is care and not profits. I think we can get there if we can get past all of the hype and hysteria and unbelievable fear that is being fomented by those who stand to lose a lot of money from a system that is designed to enrich them at the expense of the American public's health.

Oops, I just saw this one too before leaving the thread to go off to work. I love it that a certain element tends to leave its trademark namecalling (now it is "morons") as its only pitiful contribution to the discussion, mainly because there is no thought, only namecalling, to add. Only a very sick person would hope that anyone else suffers and certainly I wish ill health on no one, so your comment speaks for itself. Further, as you comment that this is a "wonderful program" it is now incumbent upon you to articulate the concrete reason(s) for why you have made this judgment. Can you do that? Can you articulate even one reason why you believe the best healthcare in the world, that of our USA, should be declined by central state intrusion? Hope you are able to respond with some specificity. I'm off to work now and this is all I'll be writing. Good day and good health. And please do not wish suffering on others. That is some wicked and evil aspect of you talking.

"Please do not wish suffering on others"???? Elaine, did you even read the article? End-of-life planning puts decisions in the hands of the patient and his/her doctor- NOT the federal government. Without knowing what the patient wants, physicians are required to offer/continue expensive and often painful treatment which may only prolong their suffering. Knowing the patient's wishes provides a clear roadmap of care that is SOLELY determined by the patient. As a physician who has worked with the elderly for over 20 years I strongly advocate that everyone should have an Advanced Directive, regardless of age, but it certainly makes sense as you age. It's when people like you who 'say' they've read the bill but obviously don't understand its contents get into the fray that good, sensible and humane treatment goes out the window. I can only hope that you nor any member of your family ever faces these decisions but its inevitable in most cases. If and when you do, I hope you think about all the patients screwed because of your ignorance and those like you but I have found that zealots can never be taught any lesson simply because they refuse to listen to reason.

For people like Elaine, it would take more than just the minimal IQ to read and understand the article. They'd rather take notes from Faux News than actually read articles and think for themselves.

innerjuju and BJs65-634377 you misplaced my comment in the thread as well as your concern. "Please do not wish suffering on others" had as its predicate the unhealthy jumponboard 2009's comment "moron (ie namecalling)...let's hope you suffer" which is simple evil and sickness, not any reference to the article. Hope that helps. Second, I have made no comment pro or con about end of life directives, as that is a personal decision to be made AND PAID FOR privately, not with taxpayer money. Also you need have no concern, because I have read the bill - have you? And it is sad and dilutes any good discussion to degrade it with namecalling like "zealots" (why is anyone who disagrees with a tax-and-spend liberal a zealot?) and "minimal IQ" and "Faux News." Just make a good point and leave it there without the personal attacks, which add nothing. But it sure does sound like a neat term, Faux News for the steady diet that many Americans get from the mainstream media. Bye.

Good explanation Elaine, its nice to see some intelligence on the vine, and, oh, jumpon, I think you entered the wrong letters in the little line at the top of the screen, you may want to get your mom to type it again, people are so tough behind a keyboard, must be a slow morn at the KOS..

Jumponboard,

If you read my post above you will learn that this is nothing new, it is already the law...only diffrence is...Docs and Hospitals do it for free now.............

Elaine

Rationing and arbitrary selection of winners and losers is undeniably part of HR 3200. No doubt. Just pick up HR 3200 and read it as I and many others have. It is absolutely a shallow and engineered/ing approach. Why would there be priority to an 18 year old who could be a drifting pothead, is overweight and who never exercises, but denial of scarce medical resources to an abstaining-of-every-vice, perfect weight and fit 52 year old who is writing a sonata?

You say you have read the bill and then go on to not only misrepresent what it contains but add your own little twist of "Pot head" And what kind of description is that of the 52 year old who is writing a sonata? and WTF does that have to do with anything?? It is you that would "qualify" people based on social stature!

The bill is not complete. It has to pass the house and go to the Senate where they will have their way with it. You cannot draw conclusions, especially your extraordinary type of interpretation, on a bill that is not yet finished.

Elaine,

Thanks for spending the time explaining HR 3200 to the rest of the unwashed masses. I foolishly thought HR 3200 was a PROPOSED bill that is undergoing amendment as we speak. It is not yet up for a vote and must be approved by the Senate, even if it should pass the House. Apparently you want to hang your argument against health care reform on a provision that is likely to be left out of the bill because of a massive disinformation campaign.

Have a great day at your lobbying job for Big Insurance.

The basis of the bill is gov run healthcare. Any version of this is bad for the people who actually pay the government. As for her lobbying for the ins companies I think you are so far off base there that I will ignore anything else you write.

And you might want to ask N Pelosi(self proclaimed queen of the liberals), about the liberals plans as she stated yesterday, ANY bill passed will have a gov run option "trigger: that will put their wishes into effect, and it will be a "VERY ROBUST" public option. So whos doing what lobbying in here? So your opinion holds ZERO cerdibility, its just an attack on the democratic debate completely.

Innerjuju, you are trying to reason with someone who cannot be reasoned with. It's like explaining to a child that the boogie man doesn't live in their closet or under the bed. Once they get that irrational fear in their head the only thing that will make it go away is if they grow up.

Marine Vet 891165 - Well Said!!!!

I understand that HR3200 isn't finished yet. However, that doesn't change the fact that as it currently wriiten, it is unacceptable. This topic of conversation is about so called "Death Panels" though. With that in mind, I think End of life counseling is important, but what confuses me is this, as it stands right now you can talk to your doctor, family & freinds about your end of life care now for free. Why are we willing to accept a provision that makes it manditory, and now has cost factor added to it? When are people going to realize we shouldn't need a government mandate for planning ahead, we should be smart enough to do it on our own. Why are we pleased with rewarding people who show no signs of self reliance, or too many signs of an unwiilingness to help themselves? End of life counseling is just that counseling, so I have no problem doing it, just a problem with adding to an already skyrocketing cost of healthcare, and a problem with people assuming they cannot get this counseling now for free.

Elaine and others against the public option:

1. It does not take health care away from doctor's, I know, I have a public option from my husbands plan and it beats any private option I have personal experience with.

2. Private insurers constantly make policy decisions based on profit , they play God by denying service for pre-existing conditions or drop service

3. Many against the public option have Medicare, what in the heck do you think that is?

4. Many have children going to schools, a public mandate - federal government subsidized - seems pretty good to have free available education to all.

Please stop the scare tactics.

Only a very sick person would hope that anyone else suffers

That's what we've been trying to get conservatives to realize all along.

and certainly I wish ill health on no one, so your comment speaks for itself.

BS! your every post here backs up that you couldn't care less about other people's illnesses. WORDS mean sh*t.

ACTIONS speak volumes.

You people are sick. You could care less about anyone beyond your little circle of friends.

Screw everyone else ...there will be poor always. If liberals thought like conservatives Elaine, YOU would not be "going off to work" You'd be at home doing "women's work "

Things need to change for the good of everyone right now. Putting it off for another twenty or so years is not acceptable. Yes we can afford it right now.

Stop arresting "pot heads " for one..and save 19B per year. "

Unclogging ERs with non emergencies will save $

A far larger than any employer on earth group plan will save us money, not to mention, the fact , the private health insurers necessarily MUST cover people at a competitive price because they are forced to cover basic care or lose their customers to the public option. yet they can still compete. Other systems use that right now in the health care industry.

Here in the US UPS competes, Private schools compete. How is it they can compete in their market but health insurers wouldn't be able to compete in theirs?

In fact if we DON'T afford it right now, even selfish conservatives will begin screaming that "they can't afford health care" in a few short years

no matter where you get your insurance from YOU EXPENSES WILL RISE , has nothing to do with government and everything to do with the profits of those insurance companies you defend.

Instead of the HR3200 bill or other versions currently circulating--we should just lower the age to get medicare.

Then fix that system and quit allowing Republicans to cut funding so they can later claim "look it's under funded, see the government can't do anything right."

ask the seniors if they want to give up their medicare. Bet the majority is just fine and happy with it as would others should the public option become reality.

That's what the conservatives are REALLY scared of.

Elaine:

Can you articulate even one reason why you believe the best healthcare in the world, that of our USA, should be declined by central state intrusion?

While you are reaming out whoever you were responding to, can YOU articulate even one reason why you believe the USA has the "best healthcare in the world?"

Did Sarah tell ya so?

Try checking with an objective source, such as the World Health Organization.

No matter what kind of reform is proposed, even if it was to reduce the cost of aspirin by 50%, most Americans would be screaming bloody murder that they want NO health care reform, under ANY circumstances.

Even if your current doctor was actually required (under existing health plans) to give you an appiontment within one week of your request, people would be screaming bloody murder that that would be a bad thing.

Even if there was a requirement that employers who offer health care insurance HAD to keep offering health care insurance, people would be screaming.

So, okay, fine. No reform. Period.

Marine Vet,

Have a great day at your lobbying job for Big Insurance.

Ha! She is a paid troll no doubt. The vernacular gives it away.

Oh, and for those of you who don't have a Living Will, and/or are afraid to make a Living Will and/or don't have family members that are willing to make a decision for you as you lay like a vegetable for years and years, why would you expect the rest of the world to keep you "alive" forever and ever as a vegetable?

Believe me, someone, somewhere, will be your "Death Panel" whether you like it or not, regardless of any health care reform, so you might as well suck it up now and realize you're gonna die like everyone else, and end your life with some dignity.

Best to all.

Elaine,

Are you so blind in your dislike for President Obama, that you do not know that insurance companies NOW have the same "gatekeeper" with a "clerical" mindset making those same decisions TODAY.

He/she merely reads the "guidelines" set up by big insurance and their "professional board of review".

If that is your only complaint then it is not an issue.

The "unthinking" people are easily swayed by fear mongerers, Palin, the "unthinking" people are afraid of change no matter what the issue is. If it wasn't health care reform it would be something else to complain about, they just want Obama out no matter what! The "unthinking" want the status quo. They ALREADY have "death panels", insurance companies who deny coverage for pre-existing conditions, are some of you just "glossing" over that fact? It's ok with some of you that some people will be sent home to die because they had a pre existing condition prior to getting sick, and their insurance wont cover the costs of treatment? Sounds like a HELL NO to me, heck as long as it's not you or some one you love right? But when or if it happens to you then what are you going to say? "Gee Johnny, it's too bad you wont get that chemo because you had acne when you were younger, let's go home and arrange your funeral". Oh well! And is it ok with some of you that your insurance premiums keep going up with less coverage? Or is that the only part you want changed.

People who are opposed to this health care reform or any reform at all, and who use any trick or lie to achieve their objective sounds like a death panel to me.

To everyone telling me to have compasion, I say the same to you! Why is it I can go to any Grocery Store, Restaraunt or Public Venue and see a child's picture on it asking for donations. If people truly were caring like they say they are they would be donating as a charitable contribution then, not waiting for a government mandate that insists they do. Seems everyone calling people insensitive and uncaring are the same way except now they want our government to guilt people into paying for healthcare.

There are thousands of stories where communities come together to help pay for a childs surgery or treatment. What is going on now where you all of a sudden are self rightoeus and more caring than others? Where were you when you had an opportunity to donate to a particular person's cause then? Why is it now that you want people to believe you are some sort of philanthripist?

All I'm saying is there are ways for an individual to raise funds if they try hard enough and reach out to the right people. I just find it funny that Democrats and liberals seem to think they are being progressive and humanitarian, when they could have been doing it before, it seems to me that unless our government takes it out of thier checks first they woudln't donate to a charity designed for that purpose on thier own? Any thoughts?

innerjuju... said "Elaine, did you even read the article?"

Just because we read the article does not mean we all have to swallow what was writen in some rag...unlike you some of us are able to think and make decisions on their own...and see through the bs... some will not drink the coolaide...

Ymerej,

Are you saying the best way to make sure we all get coverage for catastrophic illnesses that might happen to us is to hold BAKE SALES?

Let me know when you are in the emergency room, doubled up with the pain of appendicitis, and I will be sure to put out a coin jar for you at my local market. We'll have that little operation paid for in, oh, a couple of months. That is, if you have a cute enough picture to go on the jar.

" . . . frank words . . ." actually are all too true now as some states have and many other states seek to close facilities that were offereing lifelong residency to the permanently retarded and disabled. The solution is to shove this population into communities that are already facing drastic cuts in social services, or in to convalescent homes of which many have already proven way to problematic for the elderly that the convalescent homes were originally providing for.

Chiaroscuro, people like Elaine just want to believe that we have the best health care in the world. Objective facts only shatter the illusions upon which they have rested all their beliefs and that is why they avoid them like the plague.

Chiaroscuro, most do not know that the United States has the worst health statistics of any industrialized western country in the world. (Also many are unaware that the Hippocratic Oath is not used in this country.)

Amen! The hypocracy is alive and well in the current admin and their sheep! Lets not forget the radical "supporters" that drew up the bill, the Apollo Alliance and the communist race baiter and cop hater Van Jones, lol.

Physicians and hospitals should ENCOURAGE such planning and they DO. As you and many others have stated, you already have these things in place. Yes, it should be encouraged and people should make their wishes known to their families, but it does not take an inclusion in government legislation to do that nor should a person be REQUIRED to do so.

Thank you Squirrel,

Exactly what I have been saying. We should not need our government to mandate responsibility. As Fibikerchick stated her parents did this own their own and encouraged her to do so as well. So whats the excuse for wanting Government to mandate something that thinking people do already?

Newsflash! Counseling on end-of-life options is not readily available. My late dad had advanced directives via his attorney, years before he became terminally ill. However, in his final days he and I had no clue about whether to agree to I.V. nourishment and/or fluids. Would he feel starved or thirsty without them? Would a glass of wine help him or make things worse?

My dad (and I) had dozens of question about what his final days might be like, depending on what medical intervention he opted for. He was scared and so was I, to make a decision that would cause him to suffer needlessly. We were in a panic and totally confused about how to approach his impending death.

Thankfully, I had a friend who was a doctor and she was able to answer his questions and mine. Armed with good information my dad opted to die at home with just enough medical intervention to make him comfortable.

However, it would have been so much better if he had been able to get that information from a medical professional when he was well enough to decide and dictate his preferences.

That type of counseling NEEDS to be a part of what is available to all patients and their families.

End of life decisions.

It is a persons personal decision that should be made known to family members and should not be influenced or coerced by government.

Right now, end of life discussions with your doctor are not reimbursed. Doctors are spending the time to do this without being paid. This tiny part of the entire bill simply states that doctors will now be reimbursed for that time. Period. It was a Republican that first put forth this idea. Everyone thought it was a good idea...well, at least until Sara Palin started calling it a "death panel". Suddenly, this Republican idea is evil incarnate. When my father (who had an advanced directive) was "activly dying" - and for those of you who have never experienced that, be thankful - the doctor wrote orders for a catheter??? and a blood test???. I, with medical power of attorney, asked if it was necessary and told no. So, we decided to follow my father's wishes and keep him comfortable. The doctor later told me about the whole catheter/blood test thing, "We usually order those two things because the families like to feel like we're doing something." Seriously!!! Let's stick something up...well, you get the picture...to make THE FAMILY feel better!!! Jeez...and there are those who don't think this system is broken???

John,

Nobody is "coercing" anyone. This is about getting information! People want to know what happens when they make certain decisions about end-of-life care. The professionals that provide that kind of information should be compensated. Currently they are not.

Dimwits like Palin and her Faux news pundit puppeteers are using this "issue" as a way to hijack intelligent debate.

Yes, they are compensated. Make an appointment with your doctor for a consultation, stating the topics you need to cover. They will bill your current insurance company and they will get paid, similar to every other doctor visit you have, whether you are on Medicare or have private insurance.

If your doctor isn't willing to make an appointment with you or won't consult with you about a procedure or what you would like to have done (iv fluids, etc) then he/she isn't doing their job.

If the government should not mandate any responsibility at all then lets get rid of every single social service provided by the government because everybody already knows exactly what to do no matter what.

sunnyaz: Yes, the doctors will bill your insurance if you have private insurance, but if you are on medicare they will not because right now medicare will not pay for these types of counseling sessions. The health care reform legislation would require medicare to start paying for these sessions IF the patient wanted them.

Jump

Just curious what is your income tax rate?

Hanging On,

Just curious. What do you pay for health care? Are you between jobs? Retired with a fixed income and out-of-reach premiums? Just graduated with no insurance? Have a pre-existing condition and need insurance? Okay with a 10+% increase in premiums annually? Been bankrupt due to a medical condition? Had a loved one with no end-of-life directive? Lost your company sponsored insurance at 60 years old?

Don't care? Thought so.

Just curious what is your income tax rate?

It doesn't matter, because fact is, whatever it is, it's not THAT MUCH more than what we are paying, and Jump doesn't have to worry about what happens when he DOES get sick. I'd rather pay a bit more now and know that if I get sick again (yes, I've had cancer) I won't lose everything I've worked for during my first 50 years. And no, I'm not worried about JUST myself, I'm thinking this would be beneficial to EVERYONE in the US...You know, that whole "love thy neighbor" thing?

I agree. If you lost your job today, you could lose your insurance. Sure, you can go on COBRA, but have you looked at the cost of it? Wow. You can get another job (maybe) but you'll be lucky if they offer insurance as part of a benefit package. Good luck to you if you have a "pre-existing condition". Anything that relates to that pre-existing condition won't be covered for at least a year (or more if ever!)

People - stop and THINK. I'd rather pay for health care through my taxes and not have to worry whether or not I am covered. If I lose my job, and get sick, I won't have to worry about paying for health care! The Canadians and Europians do not have to worry about these things! Their system isn't perfect but it's still way better than what we have now.

Jump,

again...it already is law................

Beanne - curious, where is it the law that you have to have a living will and/or advanced care directives in place?

LMarcT,

Funny...my Dad has been out of full time work for a couple of years, has Diabetes and Celiacs, and still pays for his insurance, has not been dropped and gets all of the medical attention he needs. He works different jobs to pay the mortgage and medical bills and does NOT want the goverment to run his health care. He has a pre-existing condition (s) and still does not have issues getting insurance. These companies are not the bad guys, they only want a profit, much like the government. Only difference is, if they do something illegal they'll be held responsible. Try doing that with the Feds.

Tempa,

The law is that your Healthcare worker has to ask you if you have one if you don't we have to give you the information............................

"jump", I'm guessing you live in France?

Jump-just because a person has no family to discuss their plans with does not prevent that person from drawing up a living will. People are already encouraged to make a living will and can decide to do so if they wish. If they don't, that is their perogative. It's called freedom.

Hangingon...jump doesn't even live in this country...she lives in France.

Beanne - there's a huge difference between handing someone a pamphlet or two that tell them their options regarding end of life planning and actually making sure that people understand it.

If you're a health care worker then you know that the doctors rarely spend any extended time with their patients as it is. To sit down and have the in depth discussion that is required to explain end of life options and health care surrogacy takes time, and often more than one or two conversations. The entire idea here is that the docs get paid for their time and this gets done properly - not just handing over some pamphlets as is done now.

areo

Do you and all other righty plants think we don't know what you're trying to do? Instead of having a productive job, you and all the other posts that seem to be written by airheads,were posted by employees of the RNC or some other right wing wack job

organization- the end of life directive is NOT the same as a living will- anytime you go to a hospital they ask if you want a living will- if you say yeas- they give you a form- already filled out that is so vague that you could be left to die if you happen to faint. These directives give you a chance to get needed information and make decisions- not sign some "form" prepared by some republican from the business office.

OK heres the Act from Congress. And yes I have seen our Docs spend a long time discussing this with pts and their families...even in the ER. and ICU..It depends on the Dr and on the circumstances...right now a health care worker is not allowed to sway a family in their decision..only give the information and then let the Pt and or family decide what to do with that info................

The Patient Self-Determination Act
Eager to jump on the right-to-die bandwagon but reluctant to take a position on the underlying issues, Congress passed the Patient Self Determination Act (PSDA), which became effective in 1991. The act requires all health-care institutions that receive Medicare or Medicaid funds to provide patients with written information about their right under state law to execute advance directives, but it does not require states to adopt or change any substantive laws. The written information must clearly state the institution's policies on withholding or withdrawing life-sustaining treatment.

One fortunate consequence of this requirement is that health-care institutions have had to examine or develop policies dealing with termination of life-sustaining treatment. The PSDA also requires facilities to document in each patient's medical record whether an advance directive has been executed, to educate staff and the public about the right to forgo treatment, and to ensure institutional compliance with state law. Violation of the act can lead to loss of federal funding.

Regardless of your view of how End of Life Counseling should be handled, it still doesn't change the fact that most thinking people already have in mind (and in writing in most cases... i.e. living wills) if they want the plug pulled, kept alive by tubes and wires or used for medical experiments.

I am not saying if this is put in the bill it is a deciding factor in my acceptance of any bill passed. Also I am not saying I believe it will result in "Death Panels" or "Pulling the plug on Grandma" all I am saying is we should already be discussing this option before we actually have to.

To me this is like saying we should make it manditory for every child to study between 4 and 6 oclock. Every child should already be studying at their liesure already, they shouldn't have to wait for someone to dictate that they do.

So to the next person who asks me to "use common sense" I say "right back at you"

There's so much more that requires medical counseling on whether or not to be resuscitated!

Once he knowe there was no hope for him, my dad (and I) had dozens of question about what his final days might be like, depending on what medical intervention he opted for. He was terrified, and so was I with his medical power of attorney, to make a decision that would cause him to suffer needlessly. We were in a panic and totally confused about how to approach his impending death.

Thankfully, a friend who was a doctor was able to answer his questions and mine. Armed with good information my dad opted to die at home with just enough medical intervention to make him comfortable.

However, it would have been so much better if he had been able to get that information from a medical professional when he was well enough to decide and dictate his preferences.

That type of counseling NEEDS to be a part of what is available to all patients and their families. It has nothing to do with DEATH panels. It is medical information every person should be counseled on.

This type of counseling is NOT typically available. It needs to be part of any health-care reform. It is common-sense, but since when does common sense rule in this country?

igna,

again read my post, the PSDA already covers this...and if you want to talk to your Dr about this now just make an appointment.or if your in the ER or ICU whatever just ask..............it's really a no brainer and it does not need another act of Congress...........

I'm fortunate in that I'm extremely healthy. I exercise, eat right, rest, no drinking, drugs, nothing.

However, I recently had a medical issue that anyone could have, right out of the blue, and the total cost was just under 100K. Luckily, my insurance paid for all but about $2,000.

Now, I had an issue that anyone, anywhere could have that absolutely could have been deadly. I feel so sorry for people who have health issues who die because they can't afford the care.

Yes, I am willing to pay more in taxes to ensure that everyone has health care. Absolutely. And, if America is indeed a "Christian" nation, then America should have universal health care.

Not one doctor spoke to my father while he was in the hospital. The hospital doctors had an incentive to keep him there even there was no more they could do for him. They were "milking" him for every last dime.

All he wanted to know is, can I get out of here and go die at my daughter's house? What kind of care can I get there? I had to jump through hoops to finally get him checked out of the hospital that wanted to "treat" him even though there was no more to be done for him, other than prepare him to die.

This was cruel, abusive, and inhumane. All they wanted was their almighty dollar from a dying man. Thank God a doctor friend of mine ("Don't tell them I told you" she said) briefed me on how to get him released so he could start end-of-life care at home.

Sheesch folks! Get real!!!! There is no incentive for hospitals and doctors to do the right thing for terminally-ill patients.

Part of the reason you want your doctor in on this decision is that your doctor understands the issues that may be unique to an end of life choice, like Inga's father. But doctors have a difficult time justifing the process without compensation--this might sound cold, but if a doctor has to do this for the HUNDREDS of older patients in their practice, they would have no time to practice medicine. Funding through a government program can be a compassionate stimulus for just this sort of thing.

It is appalling how republicans have turned this into purely partisan politics and allowed their spokesholes to put out misinformation and outright lies. It is so obvious that some of you have NO idea of what some people have to go through. We have had employer paid insurance most of the time, but have had times without it, and the costs were so high we could not afford to go to the doctor for regular things because the deductible was so high. When we finally got better insurance through the employer and I went to get a mole checked out that looked bad, and now I have malignant melanoma (luckily they got it early and it is now out) but next time we have to get our own insurance, I am screwed. As for the end of life discussion with your doctor, it is now NOT covered and the only thing the government would do is PAY for that, not get into the middle of it. I wish you people would be honest. By the way, over 60% of personal bankruptcies are due to medical bills, and many people HAD INSURANCE. Get a clue.

Why does it matter how much someone is already paying for health insurance or what their tax bracket is? Now H.M.O.s are slicing care up for everyone even for what used to be the simplest, most inexpensive procedures. Most people are waiting to long for whatever they need now. This "personal responsibility" thing is being used like a wool cap over the eyes

It's really simple but rightwingers just can't seem to wrap their brains around the idea that ANY healthcare is better than NO healthcare. Another simple fact is that Obama is NOT scrapping the entire healthcare industry. It's been clearly stated time after time after time that you will be allowed to KEEP YOUR CURRENT healthcare provider/plan. The "government option" is NOT a "controlled" healthcare system as they'd like to have you believe. The gov't option was simply to offer people the OPTION of having of an insurance plan that was based on the SAME PLAN that Senators, Congressmen, THE PRESIDENT and other government officials receive. Where anyone got the idea that it was going to be controlled, limited, poor quality healthcare is a mystery.

Gov't officials are certainly NOT receiving poor quality/restricted healthcare !!!

A Gov't run option simply gives the gov't plan "negotiating power". With millions of people enrolled in one plan instead of hundreds or thousands of small individual plans the rates/premiums would essentially be SIGNIFICANTLY lower to the point where almost ANYONE could easily afford them AND it also covers those with pre-existing conditions ( like myself ) who are continually either DENIED coverage or simply can't afford the outrageously exhorbitant premiums and skyrocketing out of pocket expenses and deductibles. Gov't intervention would mean capping skyrocketing costs for medicines, procedures, administrative costs, unnecessary waste and abuse. Spending money to SAVE money in the end and give EVERYONE the opportunity to take care of themselves and their families is a NECESSARY EVIL that will benefit EVERYONE in the end. SELFISH GOP SHEEP will NEVER be able to grasp this concept. The only concept they know is ME ME ME, MINE MINE MINE, NOT YOURS, NOT YOURS, NOT YOURS. Sad really :(

Just HOW hard is that to understand ?? STRENGTH IN NUMBERS means BARGAINING POWER which = LOWER COSTS for EVERYONE ! (Oops.. forgot , the concept of "everyone", love thy neighbor, help those who cannot help themselves, charity, etc are NOT part of the RIGHTWING FAUX XTIAN vernacular ) You'd have to substitute those terms with "despise thy neighbor, ignore/shun those who cannot help themselves, selfishness, greed, narcissism, etc. all qualities that are DIRECTLY IN CONFLICT with the concept and tenets of ( fictitious as it is ) of true Xtianity.

We certainly do NOT have the "best" healthcare system by ANY means, nor the best medical "care" by any means. Every other industrialized, wealthy nation FAR surpasses us in mortality, longevity and quality of life and care for its citizens. American medical "tourism" to other countries accounts for over 15% of the population... yes, over 46 MILLION people a year who fly to India, Sri Lanka, Sweden, Germany, Mexico and Singapore for highly advanced medical care by some of the most highly trained/qualified medical professionals at a FRACTION of the cost of care here in the US and also done in STATE OF THE ART facilities as well. Don't believe me.... GOOGLE IT.

When I was young and married I was covered under my ex's health plan (militarY) which I lost when we divorced. By then I already had serious pre-existing conditions and was never able to not only AFFORD insurance, no company would accept me. It is now almost 20 yrs later and I live with a number of permanent disabilities and medical conditions for which I cannot get ANY treatment , meds, etc. My quality of life has gone to about a 2 on a scale of 1-10. These hatemongers have no idea what it feels like to life in constant fear of something serious happening or to live in constant pain and disability. It makes me so angry I wish I could wish MY life on every one of them and see how they feel about healthcare reform when they are having to file for bankruptcy from just two ER visits and have their houses foreclosed on them or their life savings depleted or having to live in such pain they can hardly stand it because they have to put off even the simplest medical care that their conditions eventually progressed to the point where getting care was just about as accessible and probable as winning the lottery.

These people are SELFISH, GREEDY and IGNORANT. PERIOD. Healthcare may not be a "right" but EVERYONE , young/old, rich/poor, man/woman, black/white etc should be able to afford EQUAL healthcare.

My freinds in Oregon llike their laws. My friends in Britain love their health care system.

I don't understand your point.

No i think "nothing new here" is saying that Orgegon and Britain have the right ideas, and that they are telling America to change. I think you both are on the same side.

Where are we heading? View Soylent Green and then Logan's Run. They say it all.

Exactly - ask anybody in Canada, England, France, etc. if they'd rather have the US health care system and see how many just laugh, or if they're polite, will just say 'No thank you'.

Does anybody know if a poll has been done in any of those countries regarding what they think of our health care system? Before anyone jumps in and says "it isn't relelvant what they think about our system", are you not judging their systems based on what you think their systems are like????

Well until France, UK or Canada (pause for a quick laugh) start actually coming up with new procedures and advances in modern medicine anywhere near the lengths we do, I would hold off on thier praises. New technology and new equipment isn't free, whether our insurance premiums or our increased taxes pay for it, doesn't change the fact the money has to come from somewhere. Until France, UK or Canada has the population we do, any comparison to thier system is simply uninformative. You simply cannot use a country where; lifestyles, eating habits, and ideologies are completely different from ours as a base model. We are America our mindset and way of life is simply not the same or anywhere near close to those countries. Until you can convince all Americans to take responsibility for their lives and actions, America cannot sustain a system like France, UK, or Canada. Our Politicians have proven themselves incapable of handling the letter writing business, or anything else without increasing taxes, or rationing services. Why would anyone in thier right mind think our Healthcare is the system they will finally get right? I for one would rather trust a greedy profit mongerer coupled with my own judgement, than a greedy power hungary, out of touch politician anyday.

Finally, some one who has it right. There is absolutely no mention of death panels or denying people medical help in HR 3200. I know I read it. But Steve here is correct. What will be granted or denied by HR3200 is not defined. It is open ended. Once passed the eventuality of a government controlled health care system is certain and the government can deny any care it chooses with no recourse left to the individual.

Let me ask you all this - would any of you buy a private health policy that didn't detail what was covered and what was not? Without knowing the terms and conditions of the policy. Without knowing what your rights and gaurentees are? Of course you wouldn't, but that's what your doing by supporting the current proposals. You have no idea what you will end up with.

Make congress spell it out in detail before you sign on.

These "panels" you are so worried about being formed already exist. MedPAC currently serves in this function and delivers reports to Congress on ways to monitor Medicare and how best to deliver care and thereby lower costs. Unfortunately, under the current system, Congress can, and every year DOES, ignore the MedPAC recommendations because individual congresspersons are influenced by special interest groups. This Bill took the 'veto' control from Congress and their special interest groups and neither of those like to give up control.

I have been saying that HR320 is open ended all along, but the people don't want to to hear that part(and yes I read that monstrosity), we just want reform, at any cost. Well America, there's an old saying , be careful what you wish for, you just might get it! And for the last time, I am not arguing against reform, it is needed. However, why are we trying to pass an unproven system? Why not FIX Medicaid to include people that cannot afford insurance, or can prove uninsurable for preexisting conditions? Allow them to pay a premium for the services(if they can), and be done with it! But, D.C. does not like simple ideals, it makes it to hard for them to steal us blind! Open ended bills, now that's what we want, easy to steal, and easy to manipulate. D.C. at its finest!

Let me ask you all this - would any of you buy a private health policy that didn't detail what was covered and what was not? Without knowing the terms and conditions of the policy. Without knowing what your rights and gaurentees are?

Thats exactly what you buy now, people shout about reading the bill, have you ever read an insurance policy? It's pretty much the same as a credit card agreement, they have the right to change any thing at any time and you have only the right to whine about it.

I had BC/BS quote a policy, after health exams raise the cost, and then just before the policy was written raise the cost again and completely exclude my wife due to a pre-existing condition. I've never been one to trust the government but I trust corporate america even less - they don't hide their agenda.

Those of you who trust the insurance companies have never really experienced them.

TampaSteve,

Couldn't disagree more. I've had health insurance provided by multiple companies I've work for and had a private policy while self employed. Read every one, was satisfied with what they offered, was willing to pay the price and never had a problem.

In fact when I was self employed I looked at many companies, reviewed what they offered, reviewed the price and chose the one I wanted.

So don't give me the "That's exactly what you buy now" Stuff. That is simply not true.

Steve

You're an ignoramous. That's not what President Obamas said. It is easy to see why righties have so many objections to ANYTHING- they don't have a brain or they just take whatever Faux news tells them as the truth. The President said groups of experts in Health care would examine which treatments seem to work best (since there are several treatments for many problems) and make that information available -not mandated- available to
Doctors. Abortion would have been a better option for your parents.

JJD:

It's great that you have such wonderful coverage. I'm wondering though if you know TampaSteve personally and were there when he got his insurance quote? If not then are you calling him a liar and everone else with similar experiences? How do you know for a fact that this did not happen? Like I said it's great that you are so covered but that doesn't mean that everyone else has the same experience or great insurance that you have.

HoneyBee,

No insurance company, whether it be health, home, car, life, or property sells a policy without giving the client the opportunity to review the terms of the offering and the price. If TampaSteve chose not to read the policy shame on him. If he read it and didn't like the terms but took it anyway, then shame on him. If the terms of the policy changed to something he felt was unfair, and didn't challenge it legally, or chose not to find another carrier, then shame on him.

I am sick of all the stories about the evil insurance companies that you all suck up and report as commom examples.

For each of these "horror" stories there are thousands upon thousands of stories of claims made, processed, people taken care of, lives saved that you chose to ignore. You dwell on the negative and use this as the basis for vilifying insurance companies to justify destroying a system that works well for so many.

Do I believe that health care system could be improved? Yes I do. Do I support the insane assault on the system proposed by the current administration - Absolutely not.

JJD- the way you are defending the insurance companies, you must work for one.  "thousands and thousands" taken care of, you say?  Then what about the following claims rejection rates, reported in today's LA Times ( The story was about California's investigation into claims rejections by the 7 largest insurers):  Cigna- 33% ; Pacificare- 39.6%; Health Net- 30%.  I just dumped my all but worthless BC/BS (now paying 20cents on the dollar) for Cigna.  So I have a 1 in 3 chance that any medical claim submitted on my behalf will be denied.   Apparently there are a lot of really healthy people on here who have never needed to really and I mean really depend on health insurance.  I am talking about stuff like a major visit to a trauma center, heart bypass, cancer, etc.  Be unfortunate enough to suffer a serious illness, requiring a lengthy hospital stay, and you WILL find out who's running the "Death Panels".  Hint: they don't work for the government.

It does seem strange to me that it is assumed that just because someone has a degree means that they will always have everyone's best interests in mind. I would like to see published statistics on 'death panel' activities in other countries.

Medic,

First, no I don't.

Second your story is only a half truth. 9 out of 10 insurance claims that are rejected are rejected do to clerical error and are paid after being resubmitted.

JJD:

I did not "chose to ignore the thousands of lives saved". I simply stated that because you've had great experiences with your health coverage dosen't mean some one else did.

You stated ...."a system that works so well for so many", but the next paragraph down you state that the system could be improved. Why, if it works?

What I myself am sick over is the depths to which some people go to to "prove" that Obama is evil and needs to go. It really is insane all the crap they make up and that some eat up with relish, never mind that they are blatantly obvious lies..."He wants to off grandma", "Death Panels", "He wasn't born here" Puhh-lease! People...get a grip. Some people believe anything handed to them by the likes of Limbaugh, O'Really, Palin, Beck, you get the picture. And then they turn around and say it's the liberals that are brainwashed! And now people are up in arms over the President speaking to school kids about doing good in and staying in school. OOOHH yeah, sooooo evil! Whatever well we do? It truly is "an insane assault" against rational thinking people who do not buy into all the despicable lies being perpetrated by angry people with their own agenda.

I'm just tired of all the stupid insanity going back and forth. Like I said in another post, if it weren't the healh care reform topic to bite into it WOULD be something else, whatever it takes to get him out of office. I just bet that if it was a Republican administration that instituted this health care reform, the same one being proposed now, it wouldn't have created such a stink! And if the democrats came up with all the wild stories?

That is severely out-of-context to what he said. He first noted, as an aside, that individuals have choices about how to deal with their end-of-life care, by which he meant making a living will if they so desire. He went on:

Obama, June 24: "I don’t want bureaucracies making those decisions. But understand that those decisions are already being made in one way or another. If they’re not being made under Medicare and Medicaid, they’re being made by private insurers. …

What we can do is make sure that at least some of the waste that exists in the system that’s not making anybody’s mom better, that is loading up on additional tests or additional drugs that the evidence shows is not necessarily going to improve care, that at least we can let doctors know, and your mom know, that you know what, maybe this isn’t going to help, maybe you’re better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller. …

The point is we want to use science, we want doctors and medical experts to be making decisions that all too often right now are driven by skewed policies, by outdated means of reimbursement, or by insurance companies."

The president didn’t say that government would decide what treatments or procedures would be allowed for each individual. He said the opposite: "I don’t want bureaucracies making those decisions," and "we want doctors and medical experts to be making decisions," based on scientific evidence of what is likely to result.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/07/surgery-for-seniors-vs-abortions/

innerjuju -

Just like the government managed Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid into the ground. You can't name one social agency the goverment is running that isn't on the brink of disaster because of mis-use of funds, fraud, etc. they couldn't even manage a car trade in program efficiently and you want them to manage you health care, good luck with that!

Obama may have said "I don’t want bureaucracies making those decisions", but what he MEANS is "I don’t want non-government bureaucracies making those decisions".

He hates the private sector with a vengence.

Remember that the Dems loved all humanity, they just don't like any actual people.

Medicare, Medicaid - what about Tricare/VA and Work Comp? All the "policy holders" are sick/injured/old - think the HMOs can churn out their profit and bonus levels with that patient base?

A government option, where paying healthy people can also be rolled into the mix, within the framework already in place, would be more efficient. We will dump our HMO ASAP if one becomes availabile for a similar price (now exceeding $12k a year), if the employer doesn't beat us to it. Keep your private company, and keep paying their management bonuses.

Dave, Don't like abortion?Don't get one.Besides Dave,we're talking about the other end of the trip.

Dave thank you for speaking for those that can not speak for themselves. The baby who gets the thrill of their life time does not get to decide if they get aborted or not. People always argue that people can choose what happens to their body and others should but out. That argument does not work-try going into a hospital and ask to have your heart removed-we do laws which restricts what you can do to our body, as well we should. I do not like ending human life but for mere conveince some people do.

jumponboard you are right by the time this bill is past pregnant tn agers will have more medical control than you do.

jumponboard: I am female and abortion is NOT just a female issue. It takes a man to help create that baby and there are many men who have been devastated to learn their child was aborted because the woman involved decided to make that decision all on her own. Furthermore, male babies are aborted so it is a male issue for that reason as well and men have a right to be against it if they want to.

squirrel, that may be the dumbest line of reasoning against abortion that I have ever read. Good grief.

People like me do not go to an insurer for an abortion anyway - who wants a paper trail. Our daughters, if such a sad choice is decided upon, go to a private "provider", cash - or out of the country if need be. As usual, it is the poor who get stuck with no options - but then people like you can complain about the burden of paying taxes for welfare babies, so maybe YOU could consider "no abortion" win-win. (rolls eyes)

Oh...jump...do you mean it's "none of your business" (your reply to Dave Jordan) in the same way it's none of YOUR business concerning the health bill in the USA since YOU are from France? Is that what you meant by "none of your business"? Keep your American bashing in France where you live.

You know squirrel,the only time most men have a say in pregnancey is if the couple are inteligent and up front with each other about procreateing and having the meens to support the fortunate child to be.Most unwanted pregnanceies occure when ayoung lady decides that she wants the baby,for a variety of reasons such as a way to keep mr.wonderful,or,"i love him".This mentality usualy leads them and the half wanted child to a life of poverty and cruelty from a parade of unsavory characters that mom imports throughout the kids life,while mom looks for love.Some rise above this some do not.Some of these kids dream of the day when someone,anyone,would rescue them from misery.It never happens.I am sooo tired of hearing women say it takes two to have a baby,when we all know,that a man will say anything,anything to get to the promised land,if you know what I mean.The truth is women are the only ones in control of pregnancy.You are the ones that take the pill.

addiem: Trust me, that is NOT my line of reasoning about abortion. I am not even going to go into that here as that is NOT what the article is about. I was simply responding to jumponboard's insistence that abortion is ONLY a female issue. Most of the time it is, but I still assert that a man has a right to his opinion as to whether it is right or wrong.

Tanya - Regardless of how you feel concerning this debate there are several items that stand out about your comments: 1. There is no need for name calling; the extreme left is finding out the hard way (many examples in recent days/weeks), this only makes them look bad and 2. Regardless of your feelings of Ms. Palin, she has done something the liberals would love to have a peice of right about now and that is the publics ear. She was able to concisely, albeit a scare tactic, ring a chord with the American public. If the liberals would be so "smart", perhaps they wouldn't be in the current circus they are in.

To me, it is a sad statement about Americans that people like Palin, Rush, Pelosi, Coulter, etc HAVE the American ear.

Why do people have to be far out left or right wing-nuts to get attention? We run our country like a Jerry Springer show.

Tanya, people ALREADY have the choice to "go over end of life directives". WITHOUT government regulating or mandating it in any way.

Tonya, thanks for pointing out what is obvious to most, but some are just too stubborn to believe it. Also, Bos1234 has a problem with you calling out the former 'Guv' of Alaska on her views. Frankly, I find her irrelevant since she has shown time and again that she has a limited understanding of most things, so why even worry about what she has to say.

Dawn296574 - I wish I new the answer to your question. I contemplate that question every single day. The closest thing I can come up with is that most of us Americans are lazy and choose to feel someone else can represent us adequately. When in fact we should take matters into our own hands.

Brent in WI - I care about Ms. Palin about as much as I care about you. However, I stated the facts as they are, like it or not, that is the current skinny.

Where is the article on the United Kingdom releasing a study yesterday on how over a million people each year receive poor health care in their country, the model to the Obama plan

I don't know, where is that article? I'm thinking you read it, yet you didn't give a link. A million people each year receive poor health care...what do you suppose the rate is here in the US?

britologywatch.wordpress.com/.../patients-association-report-on-mistreatment-of-vulnerable-patients-in-the-nhs-why-hide-its-england-on

bucsfan-This story was on MSNBC yesterday,but I can not find it today.

http://www.patients-association.org.uk/DBIMGS/file/Patients%20not%20numbers,%20people%20not%20statistics.pdf

Here's another statement to the "wonderful" british health care:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32674616/ns/health-health_care/

Cassandra

I worked in the Fl;orida health care system- in the Medical Dept.- I never knew of one inmate getting ba transplant. where did you get your information? Crying BecK? or Screaming Hannity? or pervert O'Reilly?

Janet---not everyone is as fortunate as your Dad. But don't take that right away from families where there is no hope.

To each his/her own...but end-of-life directives are/is a good thing for families and why not pay doctors for this service.

Janet

It doesn't sound like you made any decisions- I'm glad your father got those extra 8 years- it was sponaneous remission of whatever the problem was- but if the directive had been made and said no herioc measures were to be taken- yes- he would have missed out on 8 years of life- but that is far from normal- fundies would obviously call it a miracle as did some of the Doctors- the majority of people in that situation would have been spared any additional suffering. Do you see the parallel between this and the death sentence? Recent evidence shows that an innocent man was executed by Texas- are you in favor of doing away with the death penalty to prevent another innocent man from being executed by some state?

JAC

What school did you flunk out of? The government will not be making any decisions here- they are just signing up to pay for the decisions the patient and their Doctor make. Get an adult to explain the difference between that and the crap you said.

By law, the only people in the US that are guaranteed health care are prisoners. For all the people that say that uninsured can get medical care because doctors have to see them, here's ana experiment. Next time you or your child is sick, go in to the Dr's office without your insurance info. Any volunteers??

Bottom line for me (and should be for everyone that knows the government) is......stay the hell OUT of my life. Especially, my living, breathing life. I have done well handling my life in a free society. The government, on the other hand, has failed miserably.

Nothing is more pathetic than the case of an old person hanging on by a thread, unconscious or semi-conscious for days and weeks only because the family wants it and the doctor and the hospital are able to make it happen.

Comments like this one is the reason why Americans are up in arms, by the way nancy pelosi pretty much signaled that the public option is a NO in her speech yesterday.

Sam,

You sound like one of Dick Armey's American whiners, overpriviliged, overmedicated, not an ounce of intestinal fortitude, pragmatism or common sense. It's little wonder that we have become the Bailout Nation.

LOL....which speech, Sam? She made 3. One for the public option. One for no public option. Then one for public option again. This, from a woman with a 19% approval rate from the American citizens.

Silverfox,

Try to stay on point.

Not about Pelosi and the public option.

About "death panels" and people who have the common sense to die well.

dubina

Sam,

You sound like one of Dick Armey's American whiners, overpriviliged, overmedicated, not an ounce of intestinal fortitude, pragmatism or common sense. It's little wonder that we have become the Bailout Nation.

Just too let you know ive been too the doc once in the past 3 yrs and i think its a horrible way too die hooked up too a machine has a veggie and yes I would have them pull the plug but i dont seek too undermine or deny others rights too do so.

Sam,

I get it. You're not a weak-minded coward, but you wouldn't deny the rights of other weak-minded cowards to die hooked up to oxygen tubes and IV drips and platoons of hospital beancounters.

How noble of you.

dubina....is your name sam? That's who I addressed. Butt out.

Silverfox,

You're in my thread, friendo. Like it or lump it.

I think people who have experienced someones journey out of life, especially from a terminal illness, would understand how important this kind of conversation with your doctor (not your bureaucrat) is. We all die, and if some of you are lucky enough to not be touched by death, good for you, but many of us have experience with someone dying and resent the blatant misrepresentation by the republicans on this important matter. Please stop with the lies.

HR3200 has lots of ins and outs that kind of make me skeptical as to the purpose of the legislation. Why does the their have to inter-agency sharing of medical/financial information. What the IRS possibly care about me getting the flue?

Why does the government have to be able to access you personal bank accounts. That implies that some people will be more for some procedures than others. If it's universal health care shouldn't it be one price fits all?

Why should a medical panel set up by the president of the US determine the health choice I want to make are legal (coverable) or not? You could say that an insurance company now makes that decision but the fact is I chose the insurance company and decide based on my (my families) overall health how much I'm willing to pay for it.

There are lots of things we could do to reform health care in the US bidy nobody is talking about those things. Some one some where (look in the White House) has decided that they knw best what we need and will not discuss the pros and cons of other avenues.

I don't know about anybody else but that is what gets my goat. They just don't care what you are I think. Check that, the only care if you agree, if not you're acting stupidly.

Once that money begins to run out, the government will have NO choice but to ration health care

You are right on many points dog - but you forgot "RAISE TAXES". And what most people don't realize is that does not mean just the rich, it means everybody.

You know that wonderful system the French have, a person making the equivalent of $80,000 per year in France pays a 40% tax rate plus a 16% VAT on purchases.

Want government provided health care, you might want to consider the real cost.

Maybe La Crosse should stick to making finger nail clippers

Good post, dog. No matter how it reads now, the government will ration and when the money runs out (what money???) they will ration more and more until death will be favorable for them to steal more money. Keep government thieves OUT of your life.

BAD Dog!

The point is not that the government should ration healthcare to old people. That is an industry/Republican red herring.

The point is that our culture has been corrupted by relentless advertising that tells us we should never have wrinkles, always be ready for sex and, generally speaking, live happily ever after.

You should be smart enough to see through that self-serving commercial nonsense, but ever so many of you good Americans are not.

You and they cannot comprehend the imperative for our morally corrupt culture to change.

Great post Bill.

Well Bill, I assume you're not on Medicare since you don't trust the government. What does private insurance cost these days for seniors and boy, oh boy, are you lucky that you can afford it. Also, does your private plan have a network of approved doctors that you can visit? Do you need a second opinion for certain procedures? Have you ever had a claim denied by the insurance company? Guess not.

You say you don't want the government making medical decisions for you (which isn't part of the plan anyway, but I'll play along for argument's sake). But some beancounter in an insurance company backoffice, who doesn't know you from a hole in the wall, and who's only looking to make a profit for shareholders? Him, you'll trust.

Nice.

Bill, as a senior,

do you get a social security check every month?

do you have medicare and does it adequately provide the medical coverage you need?

when you mail a letter does it get to it's location?

Just wondering?

SS is broke because our government stole the money.

Medicare is broke because our government stole the money.

The post office will be out of business entirely very soon.

Where IS all that money that was stolen by our esteemed government?

Just wondering.

Halliburton, KBR, Boeing, no-bid contracts, tax cuts for the top 1%, just to name a few!

In general the government gets alot of taxes, so should take as much responsibility as any individual should take personal responsibility.

AMEN! I don't understand why people have such a hard time getting this! I think the death panel thing is apples and oranges, in other words two different things. There is a difference in medical personnel asking about a living will and directing someone to Social Services or the staff in their office to get info and having a government board make directives on what care is available at what age for what conditions. I think that is the confusion.

oH HUm...yes again living wills' have been "the law" for about 15 years now or as long as I can remember and I've been an RN for 22 years.......it's nothing new. And I wonder if your Dad( RIP)wanted to be kept alive on vents and by TPN etc if Medicare would of been as cooperative?...just wondering.........I work for the military now and the their healthcare is ALWAYS in the red and they are ALWAYS trying to find ways to CUT corners and where they do that is with the retired folks...you know the ones that gave 26+ years of their lives to this country.............just a professional observation