actually it is starting to remind me of George Orwell's "1984"

with a propaganda machine that has gone high tech...

Pelosi lives in a dream world...no one in Congress knows how this bill will me implemented..all they want to do is pass a bill that as far as i can tell..will give them carte blanche into our financial records..and if passed we will see the difference in our paychecks and taxes immediately, while this quality of life Health Care(yes,I am being sarcastic), may happen in the far off future.

It just plain sucks...if it was so freaking great why are the moderate Democrats and Independents not jumping on this bandwagon?

And unemployment shoots to 20%. Forcing small business to forgo profit will force small business to cut back. Cut back is a concept outside of the Current Democratic Admin, House & Senates realm of understanding. They can't cut back spending and can't imagine employers cutting back employees because they're too stupid to know what cut back means! Watch the DOW fall now!

believe anything
actually it is starting to remind me of George Orwell's "1984"

with a propaganda machine that has gone high tech...

Pelosi lives in a dream world...no one in Congress knows how this bill will me implemented..all they want to do is pass a bill that as far as i can tell..will give them carte blanche into our financial records..and if passed we will see the difference in our paychecks and taxes immediately, while this quality of life Health Care(yes,I am being sarcastic), may happen in the far off future.

you are correct.

WE WILL ALL HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE AND NO JOBS. MAYBE WE WILL GET A GOVERNMENT JOB????

It reminds me of Atlas Shrugged. The looters and moochers are taking over our country!

Rep. Tom Price, R-Ga., head of the Republican Study Committee, issued a statement saying Democrats had produced a "government takeover that will limit choice, competition and innovation in health care while increasing costs and decreasing quality." He said the measure would kill jobs, raise taxes and inflict cuts on a program of private Medicare that provides benefits to millions of seniors.

Adding: "It will bring about the next coming of Adolf Hitler. It will bring terrorists to America and death panels to nursing homes. It will take away your freedom to your guns and integrate elementary schools with gays and negros. It will bring a swarm of locusts and turn the swine flu into the Tyrannosaurus Flu. It will turn the sky into fire and the oceans will run red with blood. Dogs and cats will live together! Dammit people! What do I have to say to get you to oppose this?!?!"

This is great!

As soon as this bill passes I'm going to cancel my health insurance!

Why should I pay for something that I can get for "FREE"?

It's free right?

Frickin dunderheads all!

And the sheeple who believe in this farce are dunderheads as well.

The Dems know this could be the beginning of the end if it goes party line.

WATCH WHO VOTES FOR THIS- they are the ones your vote will take out ouf office.

IMPEACH PELOSI - NOW!!!

Peloser states it will cost 894 Billion Dollars

— Has not yet been "scored" or given a cost estimate by the Congressional Budget Office, so its cost is still unknown.

After the CBO scores it...It will be 1.3 Trillion Dollars Plus!!!!!!

I would like one thing more in this bill, all the angry people who post here should be permitted to opt out; that'll show those libruls!

Only thing is, once you opt out, you can only opt in by the current, pre-reform rules; that is you can only buy insurance if you can prove you have no pre-existing conditions, and your premiums will go up an average of 10% per year.

If you want health care as it is in America, you should be able to have it. You'll laugh now, but in 10, 20 years we'll all laugh at you later.

If it's so wonderful 6LUKE, why are the people who came up with this joke not included in its wonderous splendor?

Why do they have a SEPERATE "plan"?

Answer me that future boy!

With countless attempts by the congress to get Republicans involved with Health Care issues only to have a response of "Let them eat cake!", the Republicans should censure themselves and be glad they get out with their necks in tact.

Bingo..... Clint, right on the mark.

You have to wonder if the Union is strong enough to endure this shift to socialism.

You have to wonder if the Union is strong enough to endure this shift to socialism.

It survived the invention of Medicare, Medicaid, and S-CHIP. I think we should be okay.

Democrats, please answer a few of my questions regarding healthcare reform:

1. How do you increase benefits and cut costs? Talking about benefits, for the government plan what will the deductible, coinsurance, and Out Of Pocket maximum be for everybody? What will the cost be for each individual that chooses the government plan? Please provide a list of the healthcare services that will be covered. Seems like this would be the place to start to talk details about the plan.

2. To increase benefits but cut costs do you just not pay doctors, hospitals, drug companies?

3. Why would any honest person be against putting a cap on lawsuits? Is Obama afraid to challenge the lawyers that are stuffing money in Democrats pockets? If Democrats would stand up to the greedy lawyers than maybe they would gain an ounce of respect from me.

4. If there is a government run plan can you sue the government for millions of dollars?

5. If insurance companies are making so much money, why do you not see investors flocking to them to buy their stocks? I'll answer this one, because they are not making record profits!

6. How does the government control deductible leveraging? Both insurance plans and government plans are affected by deductible leveraging. Has the average politician ever heard of deductible leveraging or understand the math behind it?

7. How will the government control general medical inflation that is higher than average inflation for most goods? If there is government run plan does the government determine how much every doctor, nurse, and health care professional makes and what they can charge for each service?

8. Currently the government run plans are being subsidized by the insurance plans. This is one of the major reasons why insurance costs increase by more than general inflation. Most hospital would go out of business if they could only charge the forced rates that government plans set. Therefore, the doctors have to charge those with insurance more so they can stay in business and make a living. What happens to these hospitals once they are all forced to charge the low government contracted discounts?

There are four main parts to medical trend (inflation). These four main factors are general inflation, cost shifting (hospital charging those with insurance more to cover losses on those with Medicare and Medicaid), deductible leveraging, and utilization. What will the government due to control each one of these factors of medical trend (inflation)?

9. The average government workers salary and benefits is more than the average insurance vendor and consulting firms salary and benefits. Will the taxpayers have to pay for higher salaries and benefits to all of these new government employees?

10. Will the government be subsidizing all the education for doctor's, nurse's, pharmacists, etc. since they will not be making as much money with the government programs? Will the government be subsidizing all medical schools?

11. Does the government get to decide which drug companies get money for research? Who subsidizes all of the research that is currently being paid for by the current system that breeds competition and investments in research?

12. Does the government set the price for all care charged by doctor's?

13. If the government sets the price for all medical services and drugs to a point where you can not make any money, what is the motivation to do research?

14. If the evil doctors and nurses have to take a pay cut, what is the motivation to go into this industry?

15. Will there be government subsidized programs to pay for new job training for the 2 million people that currently work in the health insurance industry?

16. If a baby is born premature does the government decide whether or not to save the baby? Is there a certain amount of weeks that a mother must be into their pregnancy before the government will agree to save the baby?

17. Does the government decide how long we should keep our parents and grandparents alive?

18. Why should we invest in health research companies if the government run health plan will not allow them to reap the benefits of their research?

19. Will all of the money from outside the country investors in our health research companies dry up?

20. Why should we trust any government run plan if they can not give us any true details of the actual cost?

21. Medicaid does not pay for events that are considered an accident by doctors. In turn doctors have to make up for that lost revenue by charging those with insurance more. Who picks up this cost if there are not insurance companies?

22. What happens when there is no competition to compete against the Government?

23. Will the government be sending Americans to cheaper countries to get care so they can save money?

24. You compare the cost of Healthcare to that of the Iraq war. We all know that the Iraq war will not go forever. Universal Healthcare is forever. What is the cost for the next 50-100 years?

25. How much will you have to increase taxes to pay for this new government run plan?

26. If you are going to tax the insurance plans, what do you tax in a few years when they are run out of business?

27. The question is not whether or not the bill states that illegal aliens are covered under the plan. The question is does the bill state that illegal aliens are not covered under the plan. If the bill states a healthcare provider can deny services to illegal aliens then they are truly not covered. Currently you can not deny coverage. So, the reality is illegal aliens are still covered and will be paid for by the US taxpayers.

28. Do rural areas get left behind just like they always are because they do not have the power, wealth and masses that the big cities have?

29. Why does the government get to force lower set prices on hospitals and drug manufacturers?

30. Will the next party to gain control just offer more than the last government party to attract votes? How long will this take until the Government controls everything?

31. What happens if this new government plan does not control costs?

32. Will inmates receive the same care as those that are not in jail?

33. Are sex changes covered by the government plan?

34. Is dental coverage included under the government plan?

35. Is vision coverage included under the government plan?

36. Will there be disease management, medical management, wellness programs, smoking cessation programs, etc. under the government plan?

37. Will the government plan push generic drugs?

38. How do we keep fraud and government kick backs to political partners out of the government plan?

39. What is government currently doing to control fraud in Medicare and Medicaid programs?

40. Will abortions be covered under the government plan?

41. Will late term abortions be covered under the government plan?

42. Will less people be motivated to get a job if there is a "free" government plan?

43. America has more illegal aliens (sorry, undocumented workers) living in this country than any other country that has a universal healthcare plan. Do all taxpayers now have to pay for free healthcare for these undocumented non-taxpaying people in this country?

44. What happens when people flock to this country to live here illegally and get the "free" government coverage?

45. Will we turn people away that are not American citizens?

46. Can I just check myself into drug rehab centers and live off the government plan?

47. What level of coverage is provided under the government plan?

48. Will the coverage be so poor like most government run plans that there will be "piggy-back" plans for those that can afford it? This happens in most countries that have government run plans.

49. Will these piggy-back plans get better treatment than those on the government plans because they will pay the doctors more for their services?

50. Will this just cause more class hatred?

Democrats, please answer a few of my questions regarding healthcare reform:

1. How do you increase benefits and cut costs? Talking about benefits, for the government plan what will the deductible, coinsurance, and Out Of Pocket maximum be for everybody? What will the cost be for each individual that chooses the government plan? Please provide a list of the healthcare services that will be covered. Seems like this would be the place to start to talk details about the plan.

2. To increase benefits but cut costs do you just not pay doctors, hospitals, drug companies?

3. Why would any honest person be against putting a cap on lawsuits? Is Obama afraid to challenge the lawyers that are stuffing money in Democrats pockets? If Democrats would stand up to the greedy lawyers than maybe they would gain an ounce of respect from me.

4. If there is a government run plan can you sue the government for millions of dollars?

5. If insurance companies are making so much money, why do you not see investors flocking to them to buy their stocks? I'll answer this one, because they are not making record profits!

6. How does the government control deductible leveraging? Both insurance plans and government plans are affected by deductible leveraging. Has the average politician ever heard of deductible leveraging or understand the math behind it?

7. How will the government control general medical inflation that is higher than average inflation for most goods? If there is government run plan does the government determine how much every doctor, nurse, and health care professional makes and what they can charge for each service?

8. Currently the government run plans are being subsidized by the insurance plans. This is one of the major reasons why insurance costs increase by more than general inflation. Most hospital would go out of business if they could only charge the forced rates that government plans set. Therefore, the doctors have to charge those with insurance more so they can stay in business and make a living. What happens to these hospitals once they are all forced to charge the low government contracted discounts?

There are four main parts to medical trend (inflation). These four main factors are general inflation, cost shifting (hospital charging those with insurance more to cover losses on those with Medicare and Medicaid), deductible leveraging, and utilization. What will the government due to control each one of these factors of medical trend (inflation)?

9. The average government workers salary and benefits is more than the average insurance vendor and consulting firms salary and benefits. Will the taxpayers have to pay for higher salaries and benefits to all of these new government employees?

10. Will the government be subsidizing all the education for doctor's, nurse's, pharmacists, etc. since they will not be making as much money with the government programs? Will the government be subsidizing all medical schools?

11. Does the government get to decide which drug companies get money for research? Who subsidizes all of the research that is currently being paid for by the current system that breeds competition and investments in research?

12. Does the government set the price for all care charged by doctor's?

13. If the government sets the price for all medical services and drugs to a point where you can not make any money, what is the motivation to do research?

14. If the evil doctors and nurses have to take a pay cut, what is the motivation to go into this industry?

15. Will there be government subsidized programs to pay for new job training for the 2 million people that currently work in the health insurance industry?

16. If a baby is born premature does the government decide whether or not to save the baby? Is there a certain amount of weeks that a mother must be into their pregnancy before the government will agree to save the baby?

17. Does the government decide how long we should keep our parents and grandparents alive?

18. Why should we invest in health research companies if the government run health plan will not allow them to reap the benefits of their research?

19. Will all of the money from outside the country investors in our health research companies dry up?

20. Why should we trust any government run plan if they can not give us any true details of the actual cost?

21. Medicaid does not pay for events that are considered an accident by doctors. In turn doctors have to make up for that lost revenue by charging those with insurance more. Who picks up this cost if there are not insurance companies?

22. What happens when there is no competition to compete against the Government?

23. Will the government be sending Americans to cheaper countries to get care so they can save money?

24. You compare the cost of Healthcare to that of the Iraq war. We all know that the Iraq war will not go forever. Universal Healthcare is forever. What is the cost for the next 50-100 years?

25. How much will you have to increase taxes to pay for this new government run plan?

26. If you are going to tax the insurance plans, what do you tax in a few years when they are run out of business?

27. The question is not whether or not the bill states that illegal aliens are covered under the plan. The question is does the bill state that illegal aliens are not covered under the plan. If the bill states a healthcare provider can deny services to illegal aliens then they are truly not covered. Currently you can not deny coverage. So, the reality is illegal aliens are still covered and will be paid for by the US taxpayers.

28. Do rural areas get left behind just like they always are because they do not have the power, wealth and masses that the big cities have?

29. Why does the government get to force lower set prices on hospitals and drug manufacturers?

30. Will the next party to gain control just offer more than the last government party to attract votes? How long will this take until the Government controls everything?

31. What happens if this new government plan does not control costs?

32. Will inmates receive the same care as those that are not in jail?

33. Are sex changes covered by the government plan?

34. Is dental coverage included under the government plan?

35. Is vision coverage included under the government plan?

36. Will there be disease management, medical management, wellness programs, smoking cessation programs, etc. under the government plan?

37. Will the government plan push generic drugs?

38. How do we keep fraud and government kick backs to political partners out of the government plan?

39. What is government currently doing to control fraud in Medicare and Medicaid programs?

40. Will abortions be covered under the government plan?

41. Will late term abortions be covered under the government plan?

42. Will less people be motivated to get a job if there is a "free" government plan?

43. America has more illegal aliens (sorry, undocumented workers) living in this country than any other country that has a universal healthcare plan. Do all taxpayers now have to pay for free healthcare for these undocumented non-taxpaying people in this country?

44. What happens when people flock to this country to live here illegally and get the "free" government coverage?

45. Will we turn people away that are not American citizens?

46. Can I just check myself into drug rehab centers and live off the government plan?

47. What level of coverage is provided under the government plan?

48. Will the coverage be so poor like most government run plans that there will be "piggy-back" plans for those that can afford it? This happens in most countries that have government run plans.

49. Will these piggy-back plans get better treatment than those on the government plans because they will pay the doctors more for their services?

50. Will this just cause more class hatred?

In all honesty, I can't for the life of me undertsand why people don't ask themselves AT LEAST that one question,( Why isn't government required to adopt the same plan?) before blindly kowtowing to this MASSIVE blunder.

I guess some people want to be controlled by government. That way they don't have to take responsibilty for anything they do.

We have another word for that. It's called French.

I participated in telephone town hall with my Congressman from CA's 29th Congressional District.

Unlike me, he supports a public health option, and HE REFUSED TO TAKE MY QUESTIONS OF:

1. Why does Congress believe that we Americans MUST PURCHASE HEALTH INSURANCE or face a fine; and

2. What is his opinion about insurance companies crossing state lines to offer coverage. That will introduce serious competition.

I agree that there should be reform as follows:

1. All records are digital for ease of storage and sharing and conformity

2. Insurance claim forms be standardized

3. That people will pre-existing conditions NOT BE DENIED coverage.

That is about all I support.

Pity the Fool

I COMPLETELY AGREE that there should be no cap on medical malpractice lawsuits.

Doctors should not make mistakes and if they do, they should not be doctors.

By the way MEDICARE dismisses more people for pre exisiting conditions than any private health care company.. and She says this bill will cover 96% of all Americans when fully implemented.. Can you not read the fine print? She wants the complete takeover of the Health care Industry and another welfare entitlement. Tell her HELL NO..

Read the fine print.. Read it..

House Democrats' insurance overhaul

The 1,990-page bill unveiled by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi Thursday would transform the way Americans' medical care is paid for. The bill:

— Has not yet been "scored" or given a cost estimate by the Congressional Budget Office, so its cost is still unknown.
— Imposes a 5.4 percent tax on income over $500,000 for a single person or $1 million, for couples filing joint tax returns.
— Imposes a 2.5 percent tax on wholesale sales of medical devices, but exempts retail sales.
— Expands the Medicaid program to those with incomes up to 150 percent of the federal poverty line, or $33,075 for a family for four, expanding eligibility far beyond many states’ current levels.
— Subsidizes coverage for families with incomes up to 400 percent of the federal poverty level, or about $88,200 for a family of four.
— Sets up a public insurance option, funded by $2 billion in federal start-up money and then paid for with enrollee premium payments. Opens the public option only to people not enrolled in employer-sponsored insurance, Medicare, or Medicaid.
— Requires some employers who do not offer insurance coverage to their workers to pay a penalty equal to 8 percent of their payroll costs. Exempts firms with annual payrolls below $500,000.
— Requires individuals to either obtain insurance coverage or pay a fee equal to 2.5 percent of their adjusted income above the income tax filing threshold, or the average cost of insurance coverage.
— Sets up a $10 billion reinsurance program for insurance plans which cover early retirees (those between ages 55 and 65).

Source: House Rules Committee.

Absolutely horrible.... this will only hasten the bankruptcy of this country. When all you supporters wake up someday and realize that hyper-inflation has eliminated the value of everything you own, remember this day.

They (democrats) know all to well that the only way we (USA) will get out from under this crushing debt is to allow hyper-inflation to run its course, e.g for ever 100% of inflation the debt is reduced in value by 50%. Problem is that this destroys the value / worth of retirement savings, pensions, etc. This is not a problem if you have nothing, but for everyone who makes responsible decisions and saves, this instantly brings them down to the level of those who have done everything wrong all their lives.

Of course this is not a concern for the Democratic Party, just look at who they represent. It is the ultimate redistribution of wealth.

This is a sad day for this country.

Oh yeah, this didn't work in hawaii, tennessee, or maine (I know I'm forgetting another state in there somewhere). But our wonderful, knowledgeable, federal government is going to make it work. "Don't worry little Timmy, those states must have done something wrong. We will do it right." If you believe that, I got a bridge to sell you.

They SAY it's just 894 billion. My bet is, with all the account shifting they are doing, the cost is going to be closer to 1.5 trillion. Small business will be the first ones to let go of their people and insurance (it'll be cheaper to pay the fine) then big businesses will follow. The people will see the subsidies that govt is paying out as another "cash for clunkers" type plan and flock to it. So, I'm willing to bet that 1.5 trillion might be a lowball number.

The original incarnation of the bill was a little over 1000 pages. now it's almost 2000?!?!?! What else is on the bill? How many of the idiots crafting this thing have their little pork projects attached to it? If Obama didn't read a 1500 page stimulus bill before he signed it, you know damn well he won't bother to read this one. For that matter, how can ANYONE read and understand this thing before next thursday?

This didn't work when it was tried in 4 states - red flag

This bill will not cover all of the uninsured - red flag

Congress won't include themselves in the coverages "provided" by this bill - that's a red flag.

The bill doesn't go into effect until 2013 - another red flag.

The damn thing is almost 2000 pages long - another red flag.

Congressional democrats are completely shutting out republicans in the crafting of this bill- red flag.

Peloisi and Dodd likes it - BIG red flag

How many red flags do we need to wave here?

If this is passed, we are all going to start paying NOW for something that won't take effect for 4 more years and it's going to be a big letdown for all of you that are waiting for it. Mark my words.

They could have at least included some free govt cheese to go with this $hit sandwich they are trying to serve us.

Disgusted - you made me laugh out loud.

EVERYONE - write to your senators and congressman/woman TODAY.

It seems to me that NO ONE WANTS THIS BILL.

WE NEED TO COMMUNICATE to our legislators. THANK YOU.

In today's newsaper appeared an article detailing money received and spent in my state thru the 'stimulus' plan. States are required to start showing this information to the taxpayers who are paying for it.

The article states that 5,297 full-time teaching and school administrative jobs were "saved" at a cost to federal taxpayers of $610,000,000. Outside of that, 813 jobs were "created or saved" with a total amount of $1 billion dollars ( including the teachers' money ) received since the start of the program. During that same timeframe, approximately 70,000 private sector jobs were lost. But don't forget...813 WERE "created or saved". wow

Do the math on the money spent for public school employee job retention....$610,000,000....5297 "saved" jobs. That amounts to $115,000 per "saved" job, paid for by those individuals and businesses that actually pay federal taxes. I guess we can chalk up the excess monies beyond actual salaries and benefits to "administrative costs" to distribute the stimulus monies.

$115,000 per "saved" job.

And these federal jackasses want us to entrust them to efficiently run this country's health care system.

Supposedly the actual total cost of the "Cash for Clunkers" program is soon to be announced. One can only wonder what the ACTUAL cost is going to be for each $4500 provided to new car buyers.

Anyone wish to guess ( hint: it's a "little" more than $4500 ) ???

And now they havea speed reader reading the bill...

But the POLITICIANS still aren't going to read the bill.

Is the speed reader speed talking at the same time?

Is the speed reader speed writing a synopsis?

But more importantly, are the politicians intending to speed SIGN the measure?

Pelosi is such a tool...

After seeing the episode about Medicare fraud on 60 minutes the other night, I bet that the criminals in this country are just licking their lips waiting on this train wreck to happen.

Say! Isn't it about time for the 'Community' (a.k.a. MSNBC) to collapse this section too?

Karen, are doctors human? Has there ever been a human who did not make a mistake?

Yeah the last 8 years were great but health care for all is 1984. You rightwingers sound absolutely detached from reality.

I for one would like to say thank you for following the true will of the people, not just the one's who like to yell.

To hell with impeaching or unelecting Pelosi, it's time to hang the bitch.

The costs are not going down if they don't address the pharmeutical companies.

or read an intelligent article from Reuters http://www.reuters.com/article/smallBusinessNews/idUSTRE59S3FX20091029 never mind the fact that if you go to Reuters you will see news two days before it shows up at the mickie news at MSNBC, yeah I trust you are smart enough to copy and paste,, well, perhaps not all of you, those in South Carolina get a time out to, umm, what is is it called? oh yeah! THINK!

It survived the invention of Medicare, Medicaid, and S-CHIP. I think we should be okay.

it survived the invention... but now in the long run those programs are poised to bankrupt the country.

First off several months ago Pelosi was meeting with the two biggest pharmacutical companies right before they merged. That should had sent red flags to everyone right there.I am not for insurance companys and feel they need some changes but besides my military career, I have over 20 years in the medical field and this is nothing less then a take over.And also having to have dealt with goverment funding (schedule K,slush funding,etc) I can tell you that I have NEVER seen a program yet that didn't cost at least twice as much as projected.Usaly 3-4 times as much. Never starts on the projected date.At the fiscal year before the date suddenly you will find they will need more money, awhile the other funding gets "rediverted" to other areas.And quite frankly where do people think you are going to get the money for this?

Some examples of Government Wate spending.

• The federal government cannot account for $24.5 billion spent in 2003.
• A White House review of just a sample of the federal budget identified $90 billion spent on programs deemed that were either ineffective, marginally adequate, or operating under a flawed purpose or design.
• The Congressional Budget Office published a "Budget Options" book identifying $140 billion in potential spending cuts.
• The federal government spends $23 billion annually on special interest pork projects such as grants to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, or funds to combat teenage "goth" culture in Blue Springs, Missouri.
• Washington spends tens of billions of dollars on failed and outdated programs such as the Rural Utilities Service, U.S. Geological Survey and Economic Development Association.
• The federal government made $20 billion in overpayments in 2001.
• The Department of Housing and Urban Development's $3.3 billionin overpayments in 2001 accounted for over 10 percent of the department's total budget.
• Over one recent 18-month period, Air Force and Navy personnel used government-funded credit cards to charge at least $102,400for admission to entertainment events,$48,250 for gambling,$69,300 for cruises, and $73,950 for exotic dance clubs and prostitutes.
• Examples of wasteful duplication include: 342 economic development programs; 130 programs serving the disabled; 130programs serving at-risk youth; 90 early childhood development programs; 75 programs funding international education, cultural, and training exchange activities; and 72 federal programs dedicated to assuring safe water.
• The Advanced Technology Program spends $150 million annually subsidizing private businesses, and 40% of this goes to Fortune 500 companies.
• The Defense Department wasted $100 million on unused flight tickets, and never bothered to collect refunds even though the tickets were reimbursable.
• The Conservation Reserve program pays farmers $2 billionannually to not farm their land.
• Washington spends $60 billion annually on corporate welfare, versus $43 billion on homeland security.
• The Department of Agriculture spends $12 billion to $30 billionannually on farm subsidies, the vast majority of which go to agribusinesses and farmers averaging $135,000 in annual income.
• Massive farm subsidies also go to several members of Congress, and celebrity "hobby farmers" such as David Rockefeller, Ted Turner, Scottie Pippen, and former Enron CEO Ken Lay.
• The Medicare program pays as much as eight times the cost that other federal agencies pay for the same drugs and medical supplies.
• Congressional investigators were able to receive $55,000 in federal student loan funding for a fictional college they created to test the Department of Education.
• The Army Corps of Engineers has been accused of illegally manipulating data to justify expensive but unnecessary public works projects.
• Food stamp overpayments cost $600 million annually.
• School lunch program abuse costs $120 million annually.
• Veterans' program overpayments cost $800 million annually.
• Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) overpayments cost $9 billionannually.
• Better tracking of student loan recipients would save $1 billionannually.
• Preventing states from using accounting tricks to secure additional Medicaid funds would save several billion dollars annually.
• Medicare contractors owe the federal government $7 billion

Reform Health Insurance costs - here is an idea;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/09/AR2009100904271.html

Congressional budget analysts said Friday that lawmakers could save as much as $54 billion over the next decade by imposing an array of new limits on medical malpractice lawsuits -- 10 times more than previously estimated.

{THIS IS ONE HALF OF PELOSI 2,000 PAGE BILL 10 YEAR SAVINGS}

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/apr/15/dig-more-medicare-fraud/

The numbers don't lie: The federal government does not put its money where its mouth is in terms of fighting Medicare fraud.

Everyone talks about the importance of policing Medicare fraud, but consider the following annual figures:

• Medicare billing totals more than $400 billion, and that's mostly taxpayer money.

• Kim Brandt, who leads Medicare's anti-fraud efforts, said some estimate the agency loses up to $80 billion to fraud, though she thinks that number sounds too high. (The truth is, no one is sure. All they know is that the more they look the more they find, Brandt said.)

ADD UP THESE [2] ITEMS OVER A 10 YEAR PERIOD AND YOU GET A SAVINGS OF PERHAPS $854 BILLION DOLLARS !

If just these (2) changes were implemented - the question is -

Would this impact OUR cost for health care without compromising our medical treatment and future budgeting ?

JUST ASKING ??

The provision allowing Medicare to pay for voluntary counseling to help beneficiaries deal with the complex and painful decisions families face when a loved one is approaching death.

Is still in the bill -

Perhaps the Democrats would be willing to permit Planned Parenthood clinincs to do an ultrasound before terminating pergnancies - so that the mother-to-be recieves all appropriate counseling ??

Just saying !

On page 1, the "and for other purposes" from HR 3200 remains.

ethnic/ethnicity: 27 times

underrepresented: 8

underserved: 34

race: 9

contraceptive: 1

pregnant/pregnancy: 32

Indian: 1290

Tribal: 409

shall: 3425

medicare: 465

medicaid: 376

subsection: 1554

subparagraph: 630

Secretary: 2445

Health Choices Commissioner: 23 (yup, same as HR 3200)

What I see is essentially a bigger HR 3200. I think the people will welcome this with open arms.

We have the delusional "Queen Nancy" in the house and the very expensive "African Queen" in the White House. How many got a load of of this gals tax paid entourage, twenty two people at over a million bucks for her vanity to be appeased.....but I dither.

Queen Nancy, who is under constant medication and recently fitted for a straight jacket is giddly jerking about on her haunches proclaiming victory for the nation in the world of government impressed, unwanted public health to the tune of a mere $900 bil by her estimate and that meets White House standard but not the taxpayers standard....oyvey!

This is a lot like the ethics investigation by the same untrusted bunch of crooks who got this nation into this economic fiasco and the pointed the finger at the people they were in collusion with. This is because the congress makes the laws they can break but we have to obey or else......Ya know the smell of rats is a growing stench and the odor is more than overbearing.

You FOX tongue waggers out there, get your troops to put out more rat killer traps.

We have the delusional "Queen Nancy" in the house and the very expensive "African Queen" in the White House. How many got a load of of this gals tax paid entourage, twenty two people at over a million bucks for her vanity to be appeased.....but I dither.

Queen Nancy, who is under constant medication and recently fitted for a straight jacket is giddly jerking about on her haunches proclaiming victory for the nation in the world of government impressed, unwanted public health to the tune of a mere $900 bil by her estimate and that meets White House standard but not the taxpayers standard....oyvey!

This is a lot like the ethics investigation by the same untrusted bunch of crooks who got this nation into this economic fiasco and the pointed the finger at the people they were in collusion with. This is because the congress makes the laws they can break but we have to obey or else......Ya know the smell of rats is a growing stench and the odor is more than overbearing.

You FOX tongue waggers out there, get your troops to put out more rat killer traps.

You mean "Soylent Green"

Yes Nancy, please tell us all what your Utopian Health Care plan will cost us taxpayers? Oh, that's right you can't! People, anything coming out of Nancy Pelosi's mouth is suspect in the extreme. We can ask the CIA about that, but that's right, left wing liberals would contest that in a heartbeat anyway!

Wow! a day after Queen Nancy made her announcement and the DOW took a 250 point tumble. Sorry to say I saw that coming when I posted here yesterday (2.3) You don't need to be psychic to see this s__t coming. You just need to have a little common sense. Sadly common sense is an alien concept to the scoundrels in DC

$894 Billion dollars. When has the White house EVER been right, or even close to their so called figures of what their plans will cost the TAXPAYER? They are always WAY under their so called estimates, when will any of us figure this out? They are not forced to have the very same plan, as they damn sure should. People of America, if this monstrosity passes, well, all I can say is God help us all, he will be the only one able too!

Tired...

You are absolutely right that we should have the same health insurance coverage as our elected officials and federal employees.

We were offered exactly that, in the only bi-partisan health reform bill introduced, and this has been in play since February. It was widely supported by both Democrats and Republicans, and would have allowed everyone access to the federal pool. In the pool, all the same companies who sell to the rest of us sell to everyone from the Vice-President to the groundskeepers. Individuals can pick their level of coverage, and their company (all companies directly compete for business), and agree to pay the premium of the level of coverage they specifically want. There are the plans with 24/7 private nurses and chefs, with a penthouse view, for even a hangnail, to just the most basic catastrophic coverage.

The biggest difference is that in order to sell in the pool, with access to more than a million customers nationwide, the companies must sign a contract agreeing to no pre-existing condition clauses, no rescission, no annual or lifetime limits, no changes to benefits or premiums outside of contracted amounts annually, etc.

The federal pool offers both competition and control, and causes companies to devote themselves to quality customer service, since a dissatisfied customer can easily change companies.

But all of you who said this was what you wanted obviously didn't mean it, since this bill has been barred from one committee after another. It has only one last chance, and that will be on the Senate floor when debate begins, and Wyden (D)-Bennett (R), with supporters from both sides of the aisle, will be brought up for one last time. I suspect once again, it will be ignored again, as the health insurance companies make sure we all concentrate on fighting among ourselves over these other useless bills they did allow to pass, since the only ones who will benefit are the health insurance companies.

The whole idea of the federal pool was to provide competition and control, which is what I thought we as citizens and consumers all wanted. But obviously, the health insurance companies were right in assuming we all really wanted just another chance to fight among ourselves and pay dearly for the privilege, because that is exactly what we have been doing, and we have forced our legislators to do the same thing. In the end, we will get exactly what we apparently wanted, - nothing but higher premiums, fewer people covered, and more of the people who need insurance the most not covered at all. The insurance companies will get exactly what they want - more of our money.

Nice work, Americans.

Pinch- we are for it- the senators are not- nor is Obama- they just want a big enough program to justify higher taxes to fund mouse research and other pet projects- thereby enslaving generations of Americans!!! I don't like insurance companies- I an uninsured because I think its a rip off!! I could afford it, and have no real preexsting conditions but they want to raise my taxes, force me to buy insurance ( another TAX) and let the Bush tax cuts expire. right now pay over 50% in tax in a state without income tax!!! YOU CANNOT TAX ME ENOUGH TO MAKE OTHERS RICH.

doctor...

Actually, the White House was for it. It included all the prerequisites he had set forth, and it was scored by the CBO as possible to implement next year rather 2013 and still be deficit neutral. After 2014, it would have begun paying billions back into the government.

This was rescored by a number of agencies and organizations from different political persuasions. The results were always the same. But so were the complaints. The far left complained that it was not really a "public" option, since the private insurance companies, although tightly controlled and regulated, were still only competing against each other and not against the "public". The far right complained that it would require everyone to buy some form of insurance, even if it was only a low-end catastrophic policy which might cost them only a few dollars each month.

The emails and phone calls received by the legislators were almost unanimously about everything except expanding the federal pool - taxes (which would not have been impacted at all by this bill), the various ways a public option could be written (which this bill would make a moot point, since there was a level for everyone, even those now priced out of the market), don't you dare do this, you just do this, etc. The emails and phone calls to the long list of supporters of this bill, from either part, were almost non-existent. They got little media attention because such a simple solution was not very sensationalistic, since it did not involve great controversy.

Besides, the insurance companies hated it, as do their owners, the same financial sector that blackmailed us out of about a trillion dollars just last year (there was more than just the bailout). They do not want regulation and have successfully blocked it for all their subsidiaries, including the health insurance industry. They have deliberately spent billions of dollars to divert the attention of this increasingly ADD, instant gratification society to other details of other bills (death panels would have been eliminated under this bill) so they could keep every possible attention from something that would have given everyone what they wanted except for the insurance companies, who would have had to scale back and become more of an accounting arm rather than a decision-making one. The decisions would have gone back to the medical providers.

But the American people, who are understandably under a lot of stress, frustration, fear and even anger in these economic times, are spoiling more for a fight than a solution, and they have fed this message loud and clear to their elected officials. The officials listened and gave them what they wanted - no real solution that will make anybody happy, and just feed both the divisiveness and the health insurance companies' wallets.

As I said, way to go, Americans.

Sorry Pinch- but most of this is propaganda. The scoring shows HUGE deficits after the first decade, and the first decade has no deficits because you have 10 years of taxes and only 7 or less years of benefits.

If we want to be fair lets have a real minimum wage that applies to everyone- includng resident physicians. Lets have a flat tax for everyone. Then we won't have any deficits ( it won't take long) and we can have all these other programs. And if you do not pay taxes you get nothing!! Not schools, not ERs not fire or police.

doctor...

You are talking about the various bills which actually were proposed by one of the five committees (three in the House and two in the Senate). I am talking about the only bi-partisan bill and it was not even allowed to be introduced into any committee agenda. As a result, it also got very little publicity in the sensationalistic press, since there was not a lot of controversy around it.

The health insurance companies have made very sure that we have all been focused on the bills that would prove most divisive. As I write this, Wyden, the Democratic sponsor of the bill we should have looked at, is proposing a compromise, which would allow many of us, who pay more than 8% (and this includes small businesses) of income for health insurance, can join the pool, essentially. This will have to come in as an amendment, and yet again, the health insurance companies are working to make sure this amendment does not even come to the floor.

We must have some choice and competition. My insurance company, UHC, where the CEO makes $100,000 PER DAY (not counting perks and bonuses) is the only choice the thousands in my group have. We were notified this very morning that our deductible will go to $6000 starting in January, our co-pays are all going up, our prescription costs are going up, and our benefits are going down. All the health insurance companies told everyone their costs would go up by as much as 34% last spring, and that this would happen regardless of whether anything passed Congress or not. Since they are exempt from anti-trust regulations, they can price-fix anytime they wish, and obviously, they wish. For many at the lower end of our large group, this is more than 1/6 of their income.

Most of us are just asking for what our elected representatives and every other federal employee, from the Vice-President to the groundskeepers have - choice, competition, and some degree of predictable regulation, like no-pre-existing condition exclusions, no rescission, no annual/lifetime caps, a reasonable agreed-on change in benefits and premiums from year to year, etc. We want the right to change companies if we are not satisfied with the service, just as we can do with everything else from our auto insurance to our groceries.

This is not in the bills presently allowed by the health insurance companies to come before us. There is nothing in there that will benefit any of us, but it will definitely benefit the companies.

How is any of this supposed to make a life-and-death industry a capitalistic, free market endeavor?

And to continue to defend the status quo will bankrupt this country after it kills off those who need insurance the most. We have been told this since the Truman administration. I simply do not understand that position at all.

Your last paragraph is ridiculous. Our current laws say that an emergency room is required to treat and stabilize all emergency entries. If I am in an automobile accident, and seriously injured and unconscious, I do not want a lot of time wasted while the billing department makes a bunch pf phone calls to verify my insurance. If my house is being robbed, I do not want to have to produce my last tax return to get the police to come to my aid. If the business adjoining mine catches fire, endangering my building, I do not want the fire department to let it burn, along with mine, because there are people there who have not paid any taxes. Billing departments in hospitals do not even operate except from 8-5 on weekdays. Even the IRS isn't available 24/7 to provide the kind of verification you seek.

I do not have any problem paying taxes to protect my life, my family, and my property in an emergency, even if it means a few people get services they may not deserve, and I do not think most people would either if it involved their direct life and safety.

So if I am a neighbor of yours, and you are not at home, and I see your house being robbed, should I not call 911 because I cannot verify that you have paid all your taxes?

My point was that under a new tax system everyone would pay some tax- and if you are here illegally ( the only way you would pay no tax) you would not have proof of same, and so you would be ineligible for services. It is not a few- that is the problem. The non tax paying public at large is killing this country- they are not invested so what do they care. There are ways to do this, and perhaps you are right and the real issue is weeding out the people here illegally and forceably ejecting them. I do not know- but I do know that we are going down and no one seems to care as long as they don't have to pay.

doctor...

We have used slave labor of first indigenous people and later foreign nationals to build this country since its inception. Why is it that everyone has become now so intent on blaming the illegals, when they applaud the American citizens who recruit, hire, and exploit them to avoid paying their share of U. S taxes, undercut law-abiding competitors, and often sell inferior or unsafe goods and services. People speak with their wallets, and for the sake of a few bucks, they support the law-breaking employers but condemn the victims who they bring here for profit.

(Please do not misunderstand me. I am against anyone who breaks our laws, either by coming into this country illegally, or by enticing people to do the same.)

Pinch- I have advocated the relentless prosecution of people who hire illegals!! Once a colleague was bemoaning the illegal situation, and I said well you can quit hiring them. The man had a nanny a handy man a maid who were all illegals and who spoke almost no english- because I often had to translate for the man. enslavement was wrong then, and it is wrong now- and I am not willing to become a slave for Obama- that is his intent with the health care delivery system!!

PS- you can call me steph

steph...

Okay, so you do not approve of people who hire illegals. But you are willing to help them out and translate for them? And I am sure your "colleague" is paying full taxes and such on these people, right? Don't you see a little hypocrisy here? But since this is really off-topic here, I will simply point out that this is pretty much the norm - citizens help out the employers but condemn the "employed".

Speaking of slaves, some of us are already there. We have been for a long time. Last fall, we were blackmailed out of over a trillion dollars (more than just the bailout) by a financial sector which did not need the money but had some bad investments it did not want on its various balance sheets. These were the companies which already own our homes, our retirements, our children's higher education, etc., and now our very lives, through their 70%-90% ownership of the health insurance industries.

Last March, their beloved subsidiary, the health insurance sector, met, of course under full protection of their immunity from an anti-trust laws, and announced their latest price-fixing - guaranteed increases of up to 34% for everyone, regardless of whether Congress made any move on its promise to reform the industry. This was a preemptive strike by the financial sector, to scare everyone away from any regulations for them or their subsidiary, and to discourage the rumblings of investigations into offshore accounts to avoid paying owed taxes in this country.

This morning, my insurance company, UHC, where the CEO makes $100,000 PER DAY (not counting perks and bonuses), and which is the only choice the thousands in my group have, notified us, via two grinning representatives, that our deductibles, our co-pays, our prescription costs, etc., are going up by 34%. Our benefits are going down.

I have a family member now in the last phase of recovery from five years of what will finally be a successful fight against cancer. A person next to me is undergoing that now. Several people around me are very healthy, though they have serious chronic conditions, but their weekly visits with their doctors and medications keep them that way. This was probably a pretty typical representation of the hundreds who attended this meeting. The remainder are younger, and don't go to a doctor anyway, so they won't miss anything but the premium deducted from their check, and they don't really pay much attention to that anyway, since they will never miss what they never see.

For many of the rest of us, we are very typical of so many in this country. I paid off the medical bills from 2006 from a second mortgage on my house, which has now put my home underwater. I finished paying 2007 from our retirement and investments we have held for years. The investments are about gone now, so I guess it will just be the retirement from now on and that may not even be enough if anything else happens. We are trying to move all treatment schedules up to get them in before these increases kick in January 1, so we can hopefully keep our home, since we know our income isn't going to go up any, and in fact will fall with these new contributions to our health insurance company's CEO salary.

The combined profits of the financial sector and its subsidiary, the health insurance sector, was over 400% last quarter. Mine and my colleagues, when totalled, probably equal a deficit of that same amount.

I am one of those people, as are the people I work with, who have done all the right things all our lives. I and my spouse adopted six special needs children no one else wanted, and fostered fourteen others over the years, never taking a penny from the government. One of them, whose wife was severely injured in an accident last year, is working double shifts to support his family, since she cannot work. They may lose their house, and for the first time, we cannot help them. We have a newly-evicted disabled neighbor living in our living room, but we will make room for them also if we need to.

Sir, you talk such a good game on things like illegals (but your words of criticism for the employers are empty without action), and why the health insurance companies are doing such a fine job. But I will frankly tell you that I do, in my heart of hearts, envy you and the so many like you. I have never envied anyone. I have always been content with what I felt I had been blessed with. But now, yes, I envy you. I wish I had as much as you do, so I could sleep at night and not worry about all the things I see coming for my family and I wish I was like so many like yourselves and could just enjoy the status quo and celebrate the wonderful life it provides.

But I can't. This was a hard day, watching the UHC representatives gloat over their slaves, me included. There is no control coming for our slave owners, and certainly no choice for us. The Democratic bills that will be voted on these next few weeks will not save us or the hundreds of thousands like us. We won't make it until 2013. The Republicans have offered nothing at all, but that we should just be against anything that upsets their comfortable lives. The bi-partisan bill which would have given me back access to the federal pool (I had that once and it was wonderful) like the legislators and all federal employees have, was systematically buried by the fiscal sector, using my tax dollars.

My country, which I have loved and served all my life, has forgotten about those of us here in the middle, and moving rapidly down. On nights like this, I almost hope the slope gets steeper, so it will end sooner. My consolation is that tomorrow I will go to work and see the many others, many of whom were in tears at today's meeting, and I will at least know I am not alone.

But you aren't either, are you? You are one of those concerned about a possible increase in your taxes, because it might take a little from the much you have, and it might help people like me. I wish that was my worry too.

Have another great day.

I translated for the sake of the employee, not the employer. Those people were already here. I DO not have much, and if you had read more of my posts you would know that. I work in the pblic sector, and my salary would be laughable to my peers. I drive a 13 year old car. I am sending my niece to college because my sister was murdered by medical malpractice. I help my parents, and have helped my brothers and sisters over and over. A hospital that I worked for stole over 100k from me, and my last husband took the rest after leaving me deeply in debt- so please walk a mile in my shoes before you assume I am smoking cigars made out of 100 dollar bills. If most of us really believed that we could pay 5% and it would fund this debacle and people would get health care we would be all for it- but look at what the government does. And why should only some pay for a benefit for all?? WE all need to be invested in this idea, even if we can only give a little. FLAT TAX NOW!!!

Good one, Speedy. If it's not good enough for the Congress or the Unions, then why should it be forced down our throats?

Where is the written bill for people to see? Where are the facts instead of their spin.

This reminds me of the Administration's media lead touting that they controlled the media. This is exactly what they are doing here. Control the information so people can not make up their own minds.

Hope is NOT a course of action.

current health care rate = 85% have it

add +/- $1,000,000,000,000 and then you get 96% covered...

Great work madame speaker

Get real,,,why don't you go back and actually READ the article again and lick on the link that says,,,,,,,"read the ENTIRE BILL PDF". Didn't you get that info this morning with your talking points instructions? Imagine that,,

Speedy, the Republicans have never wanted change. I remember when Clinton was in office and Hiliary's plan was defeated. The Republicans promised to come up with a plan. Guess what, we are still waiting. The Republican party is nothing but obstructionist. Pure and simply.

I'll have to take a couple of weeks vacation, I guess, bob. Says it's 1990 pages. I can read it in short time, but to decipher it, will take awhile.

get real..

One of the reps from Texas, Joe Barton was on the Mark Davis show this morning and said that the house bill can be found on his website.

www.joeBarton.house.gov

for thoes who want to read it.

The President and the Congress will not win this one. The National Health Care Reform.

Democrats are backing out. They want to be re elected.

The Republicans are a solid vote. Count on them.

I hope you're right Hawaii2. Hopefully at least a few Democrats in the House & Senate really care about this country. Unlike Pelosi, Reid, Dodd, Frank, Obama ....................

GetReal...It doesn't matter to us to read it or not. We don't matter. It will be voted on by 535 people who will not need it, will not need to pay for it, and those of us who will need it and pay for it have no choice.

That is, in any book, is socialism.

It would take a team(NFL sized) of lawyers to decipher all the double talk and legal jargan in that bill.

Mike, that is the best explanation I've heard yet for the reason stupid things are passed.

MTPolitico:

The Health Care Plan Bill is for them, the Socialists Ideologists. It is not in the best interest of the American Public.

From the responses here, and the Polls, the Majority of Americans DO NOT want this Health Care Plan. What do they care, they will still get the finest Medical Care in the world here. It's for the little people, us, all of us.

Obama must be in a stupor.

Do you think Democrat Congressman are dumb enough to vote for this Fraud Bill? Some of them have been Strong Armed by Obama's henchmen to vote yes. They must know, they will note be re elected again.

Stand up Democratic Congressman, "Just say No"!

America the beautiful, will be America the Terrible.

The Dems have demonized insurance companies and lied about insurance profits. They've barred Republicans from any legislative input and then branded them as a party of "no." They've rejected any legislation requiring the members of Congress to sign-on to this new health plan of theirs. The opinions and concerns of the public are of no interest to them. The elections of 2010 can't come fast enough.

The ignorance on this blog is really quite stunning! It ranges all the way from ingorant, uninformed, misinformed and misleading all the way to simply not knowing the meaning of simple words. Nobody to fear here.

6Luke:

The only person to fear is 6Luke, and the remarks you made. Look at the overwhelming majority of people's intelligent statements here, and their opinions. It is the MAJORITY who are well-informed and mad as h----------ll. The promises O made were all broken. The bussed in ACORN people have no dreams or reality anymore. O dumped them.

Did Obama catch you, also, the person who doesn't know much about how government is run, Health Care, politics, ACORN, the highest Government Spending in History, the Constitution or Freedoms?.

Do you know how much 15 Trillions dollars is?

No, because you're not good at math, nor good at common sense. Have you ever been on a budget? Do you save money?The Government right now has no money. You'll be the one who pays all the taxes.

Take the Radical Liberal approach, and assume everyone is going to follow. 99 per cent of the people can't be wrong.

6Luke doesn't get it. That is what's scary. Obama, the potential Dictator. A Dictator has never presided over the United States.

Am assuming you admire Hugo Chavez. Chavez likes Obama. Yes, because he is the weakest link in the circle of US Presidents, we've ever had.

skiddy; actually, if it is NOT acceptable to the Congress and the Unions - it might be something We do want. Whatever THEY want is going to be - first and foremost - good for THEM.

Then - in their divine benevolence - they will parcel the benefit to the People in the most profitable beneficial manner.

While past activity is not necessarily indicative of future results - these two organizational classes are the most consistent performers.

"Pelosi hopes" is just ensuring the proper selection of wording to feed the Media in the attempt to keep the gullible spellbound that her concern for their well-being is paramount.

Hawaii2
Go study real facts. Bush 2 borowed more money from foreign countries that all previous presidents combined.

The reason Social Security is underfunded is because it has been raided of billions of dollars by Reagan, and both Bush administrations. Oh, and by the way when you hear someone sating that Social Security is bankrupt, you can be certain that they do not really know what they are talking about, or more likely, they are trying to distort the truth. The Social Security system is a Trust - the term bankrupcy does not apply to Trusts. Anyone who really understands would use the term insolvent, which is the correct term for a Trust that is empty, and any responsible person bringing up this point would include the reasons why the money is missing, and point out the amount of money that has been taken from this trust by the previous Right Wing administrations.

P.O.;

Social Security is "insolvent" because the original Trust does not exist. All monies go into the General Fund - from which all budget obligations are paid (as far as that money goes).

This means ALL administrations have used (raided) this money since the change - both Right and Left-wing. (look into the "wing-ness" that enacted that change).

In the current configuration; money "in", then equals the money "out". The problem comes in the form of "knowing" the (currently) "unfunded" liability/expense/debt (because there is no trust to hold it) and it's growth, significantly - while we are already at a deficit. When we "hit the wall" where we can no longer shift monies about to cover our a$$; we will not be able to make "in"="out" any longer.

That should occur (at least up until THIS budget) about eight years into my retirement. Now, I'm wondering which will come first

What we need is another program like the Stimulus. PBO said if we do nothing the costs will sky rocket and if we do what PBO, Nancy and Harry want the so call Medical problem will no longer exist. Puff, just like Magic.

Oh wait the outcome of the Stimulus is actually worse then what they said it would be if we did nothing. Is it possible they don't have a clue what they are talking about?

I can't imagine how bad they are going to blow this one!

http://michaelscomments.wordpress.com/2009/10/02/september-unemployment-the-job-loss-accelerates/

Yes, the decision is being made for us...just like they did in 1965 with Medicare and during the depression with Social Security and unemployment insurance.

And just like in the past the Republicans are against providing anything for the citizens of the country.

Have you ever asked yourself where people would be today if is were not for the safety nets set in place in the past?

Have you ever considered the fact that every single program you mentioned is a tax on employers? Dealing with businesses daily, we are losing jobs in this country because of regulations and mandated programs like you mentioned. Wages play a smaller role than what is stated. How can you possibly ask where people would be today without these programs, when people were never given a chance to see what they could obtain without them.

PS- Not one of the programs you mentioned was written by this bunch of loons.

We had our say last November. We elected our President and Senators, based on our desire for necessary insurance reform. I understand that, even though the majority of Americans want this, some do not. You can't please 100% of the people.

Well said Clotho.

I would have a little more sympathy for the side that is against health care reform except most are just taking a political side without any thought to what is best for the Nation.

You "assume" we are against reform. I think Rep. and Dem. are equal idiots. You think health care reform is good for the nation while you sing the praises of insurance reform. Now who really is taking political sides.

Clotho

http://www.gallup.com/poll/123815/Half-Own-Costs-Worsening-Healthcare-Bill.aspx

You lie!!!!

We Americans elect our representative who does stuff that is supposed to benefit us.

If you don't like what they are doing, you have the option to vote them out next time. Beofre the actual election you have the option to inundate your representative with letter, emails, phone calls to state your position. Since, their re-election depends upon how the electorate feels about them, if enough people state a particular position, they have no option but to pay heed to you.

There is no other mechanism in place to have the elected goverment listen to what the people are saying.

That these people are going forth with this bill can mean only two things -

1. They are politically suicidal.

2. The feedback they are getting consists of more YAYs than NAYs.

If you people are so against the bill, you should all be writing to you elected representatives instead of bitching and moaning at newsvine and indulging in all this negativity.

This is a democracy remember ? Sadly opinions expressed on newsvine has no bearing on anything that transpires at the Hill.

Clotho, the Democrats did have their say last November and Obama was elected. You ask us to accept that, and I do. Now I ask you to face the truth and accept that the Majority of Americans do not want a Public Option! Just look and see yourself. Gallup.com

Lu all those safety nets you brag about.... all have huge holes in them.

enzelow76

Lu all those safety nets you brag about.... all have huge holes in them.

And everyone of them are running in the red.

Clotho - No, you elected your president based on the color of his skin and his mastery of the spoken word. He has no qualifications for the job and it is glaringly and embarassingly obvious.

not to mention that obama was only elected by 32% or so of the regidtered voters and only garnered 52% of that vote. So in essence he was elected by approximately 16% of the people. Not a real overwheling majority to be sure.

It was a comfortable, not overwhelming, win. Doesn't have to be the latter to be legitimate.

Many people who are eligible to vote don't. That's not of either parties doing--although Repubs have worked hard historically to limit participation, with poll taxes, Jim Crow laws, etc.

I would say that he won because of a combination of votes against the other other party and votes for his color and not particularly for what he said.

Why are completely normal comments collapsed on this board?. They seem to have a lot of agreeing people and votes.

Restoring them would make common sense.. They were written with good intentions. It is our opinions, whether it is favorable to the Liberals, Republicans, or Independents.

This is why MSNBC has had such a successful board. All opinions are able to be viewed by all the writers, so we can write our views and answers.. This is a debate forum, right?.

Thank you.

Hawaii2, sorry, no. MSNBC has succumbed to the progressive agenda, any that don't agree are hidden or squashed. You MUST comply or you WILL be reported to the federal truthspeak agents waiting in the wings.

No intolerant thought or hatespeech will be allowed, you must NOT commit thoughtcrimes against the government, you already know this, your children already are very aware of this and WILL report you.

If this trend of thought continues, you MUST immediately report yourself to the Ministry of Truth and undergo a thourough thought cleansing regimine.

Do so immediately!

Robert;

I would say that he won because of a combination of votes against the other other party and votes for his color and not particularly for what he said

Yes - this is a very apt reflection: particularly the last part. I believe a great many people who voted for him weren't really hearing and understanding his words - nor did they look into his voting records - they were angry and disillusioned and/or wanted to be part of an historic event.

That the historical event wasn't Hillary might also involve the mechinations of Pelosi's self-avowed "job" of electing a Democrat as President? Only she (they?) know for sure. Not that it matters a whit at this point - we play the hand we're dealt.

Have you ever considered the fact that every single program you mentioned is a tax on employers? Dealing with businesses daily, we are losing jobs in this country because of regulations and mandated programs like you mentioned.

Yeah shovelhead, so what we should do is continue a system where most employers are gouged by private insurance companies for doing the right thing for their employees. Sounds like a well-thought-out strategy.

I would suggest if you ask most business owners, they would tell you that clearing their healthcare expenditures off of their books would be a tremendous boost.

But hey, this train of thought doesn't line up with what the Beckerhead spoon-fed you right?

Listen, I think this bill sucks, but for different reasons. But the idea of HC reform in this country is about two decades overdue.

We had our say last November, that is how it works. This is a republic, not a democracy.

The polls I've read say the Pres. approval rating is around 50%, the Dems around 40% and The Repubs around 20%... WHO, do you say will be getting the ax in 2010 and 12???

The new health care bill just a new $ 2 Trillion plus "funds for friends" slush fund even bigger than TARP and STIMULUS going straight to the pockets of Big Insurance and Big Pharma with all those lovely new subscribers all the pork to dem cotributers paid for by us ever poorer taxpayers all thralls to the likes of $100 million plus net worth Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer and their limo liberal cronies who could care less about us and just want control control control over every aspect of our lives with their dream of Big Government with them at the helm running our lives and taking our money and putting our children's children's childrens in hock to fund their criminal pay offs if there were any real ethics enforcement in Washington all the Congress Crooks would be in jail Rangle should be going up the river tomorrow if not yesterday.

Reform Health Insurance costs - here is an idea;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/09/AR2009100904271.html

Congressional budget analysts said Friday that lawmakers could save as much as $54 billion over the next decade by imposing an array of new limits on medical malpractice lawsuits -- 10 times more than previously estimated.

{THIS IS ONE HALF OF PELOSI - 2,000 PAGE BILL 10 YEAR SAVINGS}

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/apr/15/dig-more-medicare-fraud/

The numbers don't lie: The federal government does not put its money where its mouth is in terms of fighting Medicare fraud.

Everyone talks about the importance of policing Medicare fraud, but consider the following annual figures:

• Medicare billing totals more than $400 billion, and that's mostly taxpayer money.

• Kim Brandt, who leads Medicare's anti-fraud efforts, said some estimate the agency loses up to $80 billion to fraud, though she thinks that number sounds too high. (The truth is, no one is sure. All they know is that the more they look the more they find, Brandt said.)

ADD UP THESE [2] ITEMS OVER A 10 YEAR PERIOD AND YOU GET A SAVINGS OF PERHAPS $854 BILLION DOLLARS !

If just these (2) changes were implemented - the question is -

Would this impact OUR cost for health care without compromising our medical treatment and future budgeting ?

Spend $900 + billion OR save $854 Billion

A SWING OF ONLY $1.754 TRILLION

NOPE instead I see fellow Americans jumping for joy at the gifts they have found !!

Wow, you should probably get that bulging blood vein in your forehead checked, before it explodes!

jojokialover - It must be nice to live in La-La land! Please post the directions.

Hey, your side has won! You've saved us from affordable healthcare for all Americans, preserved the precious profits of the big insurance companies, and have condemned millions more Americans to premature, avoidable death due to skyrocketing premiums! What else do you WANT?

We now need to save Americans from cap and trade. Drill baby drill...

Beware of those who couch their argumnets in the rhetoric of moral superiority - you know who you are!!

Joko, you say "million more Americans will die because they can't afford insurance!" . Don't you mean "taxpayers can't afford to buy everyone else insurance and congress and greedy politicians don't want to come off their wallets to help buy it" .

joko -

You should probably calm down a bit or you will need some healthcare (reformed or otherwise).;)

Hey, your side has won! You've saved us from affordable healthcare for all

jolokialover; No need for facetious jubilance - yet. Besides, it's not like there are no alternatives to the goal of improved healthcare costs (including insurance); try this: http://aleuicius.newsvine.com/_news/2009/10/29/3440210-how-to-achieve-affordable-health-care-by-john-silveira-issue-120

While there are no government-intervention or for-your-own-good-so-here-it-is-shoved-down-your-throat tactics, the premise is good - if not instant. As the start of the Grand Plan is five years hence, it may actually be faster.

It would DEFINITELY be cheaper.

People participate in Medicare and Social Security because for their entire working lives, they have had the money they worked for forcibly taken from their paychecks with no ability to opt out. As far as the VA is concerned, the men and women who receive those benefits paid for them with their bravery and their blood. Medicaid is for the poor.

Your comments make absolutely no sense.

Go- those deductions are small, and hardly what causes people to depend on SS/MC. The fact that people put money into the system allows the system to exist.

Steve, you do know those deductions are doubled by those evil corporations that make profits.

You'll have to break it down a little further Go-USA. LU has a disease called liberalism which inhibits the neuron receptors in the brain responsible for logic and common sense. It isn't her fault and I'm not bashing her, it simply needs to be stated. I would suggest bolding or underlining important points in your post. All caps is another option.

I have never stood in line for any type of government service. When I didn't have insurance I made payments. When I had a hard time paying for food I ate potatoes and lunchmeat. I served my country in the Army and went to college (still paying student loans) to be able to have what I have. But I did not do it by standing in a line with my hand out. I worked nights and weekends, went to school full time and did without. I just get so mad when people think the constitution says the government should pay your way. I have been pay taxes and medicare and SS taxes for over 30 years. I have paid my dues and when I retire I should get some of what I have been paying in for years back.

LU. the government TAKES my money for them programs. . . give me the money BACK, and I will leave you and them hoodlums alone. I PROMISE. . unlike a politician I keep MY promises. . . .

Contributions to SSA are small? Geesh. Dunno about everyone else but I don't think 6.2% + 1.45% for both you and your employer or 12.4%/2.90% if you are self-employed are "small" numbers. In fact I would guess seeing as it always seems like a huge portion of the nation gets a tax refund, I'd bet that SSA/Medicare taxation is probably substantially more than actual "income taxes" most pay.

Voter...

For every $1.00 any working person pays into Medicare, a person already in the system uses $5.00 worth of care. This is why the program is getting overhauled. We have far fewer workers supporting far more seniors, and the major profits are still going to the private insurance industry, in spite of the fact that they were never intended to have a place in this program.

If this program is not seriously improved, no seniors will be getting anything but the services they can pay for through private insurance within the next decade. Most seniors are in no position to pay those kinds of premiums on a fixed income. Many are struggling now, just with the cost of their prescriptions.

This is just one of the things health reform will repair. If we are not willing to do this (which apparently most of the people on this vine are not), we will be the death panels for our own elderly. Are you willing to live with that now, or face it when you retire?

PINCH

Voter...

For every $1.00 any working person pays into Medicare, a person already in the system uses $5.00 worth of care. This is why the program is getting overhauled. We have far fewer workers supporting far more seniors, and the major profits are still going to the private insurance industry, in spite of the fact that they were never intended to have a place in this program.

Then please explain to me.. if for every doller comming in that 5 go out.. HOW we are getting 500 billion to pay for this craptastic health care bill?

Something has to be seriously amiss with your statistics Pinch. I just walk around anywhere in America and I see far more people of working age than I do 65+ year olds. Seeing as SSA is a giant Ponzi scheme, that kind of proportion is what will sustain the system.

You also seem to be overlooking the fact that those retirees already paid into the system for 45+ years. Plus there are a good number who never even reach that age.

Voter-in-LA, you are right on. Pinch must be living in a retirement community. I don't see more older people than young either. Yes, retirees paid into the SSA for 45-50 years and earned what they get in payment. They are not to blame for anything, the government's handling of the SSA money is to blame. AND that same efficient group will be handling our health care. Frightening, isn't it.

The elderly paid in, just not ENOUGH.

When Ronald Reagan opened up the funds of Social Security to fund his Borrow and Spend policies, well, it's been downhill ever since. Unless indigent, no one should be counting on retiring on SS - highly doubtful it will be there except for the poor.

fu lu

Let's not forget that the government in all its infinite wisdom has continually borrowed from SS with the intention of putting it back later (well, they probably never intended to pay it back - they just say what they think people will believe).

addiem: Guess you never thought anyone would call you on that bit of disinformation. Like Pelosi's $854 B cost, this is a figment of your imagination.

The SS "trust" fund is not and has not been "raided by either party. In the Johnson administration a change in the accounting of the overall Federal Government accounting was made to include it in the Federal Government's budget but it is still a trust fund dedicated to Social Security.

Voter...

You are forgetting several things. (By the way, one does not have to live in a retirement community to see the change in our demographics during the last few years. When the earliest baby boomers began retiring primarily in a few key states, they clustered in communities and areas where they actually occupy entire zip codes.) The baby boomers are retiring. And with the recession, the older workers have an even harder time finding work, so many are opting for early retirement.

We have dropped from 16.5 people supporting each retiree in 1950 when this program started, to 3.71 in 2003, to a little above 2.17 now, with unemployment at almost 10% and the serious decline in salary raises over the last decade. This situation is going to continue for some time. Seniors are living longer now, also, and thus requiring more care and more expensive care than previously, as medicine has advanced.

Depending on which analysis you read, including the official reports from the Social Security Trust Fund, which include analyses of Medicare, the expenditures to recipients already exceed payroll contributions. As pointed out, the SS trust fund exists. However, it is in the form of Treasury bonds, which fluctuate in value, and depend on a buyer to be worth anything. Right now, we do not have a dearth of buyers at a price that will sustain this fund for very long.

At present, if nothing is done, within the decade, we will either have to increase contributions from approximately 12% to almost 17%, reduce benefits to 73% of present, or a combination of both.

If you are having a problem with any of these numbers, use your internet savvy and do a little research. Not everything there is to learn is in a soundbite or on YouTube.

LU; you pick three of the worst choices possible to support your claim - these are specifically supported by those who will use them (though SS has been abused by adding many who never have).

As for the rest: when the overhaul is complete, EVERYONE - Republican AND Democrat AND Independent AND who don't care - will be obligated to participate. You forget that a key provision is the forcing of everyone to have insurance. This plan doesn't give you the option to simply 'not play'. THAT is the worst part of the entire "reform", in my opinion

Funny... I have no idea how old ( or young ) you are but employers never seemed to have trouble offering healthcare as part of their total employment benefits 30, 40, 50, 60 yrs ago. It was THE NORM. It's not until RECENTLY that employers became so profit driven and GREEDY that they cut health benefits/insurance from their compensation packages altogether or starting having their employees foot part, if not most of the bill. Most employers used to offer 100% coverage and all you ever paid was the co-pay and deductible.. no premiums.

This isn't a "burden" on employers as all you wingnuts claim. It's a cut into their overinflated profit margins.

gemini618

Your idiocy and marxism is appalling. There are so many small business employers where health insurance costs have increased so much in surpasses workers comp costs, office supplies and electricity combined. Take it from me, you idiot, I'm the corporate controller for a small business, making roughly 60 million this year in gross revenue (two years ago we made 250 million). I can personally attest that the cost have exceeded the combination I cited.

As to greed, the small business owners have each put in an additional two million from their personal accounts in the misguided belief that Obama's @!$%#ing policies will surmount the enormous @!$%# up the Fed has been guilty of. They will both lose two million, keep 300 people working for two years, and ultimately lose thier ass on the increased Pelosi Healthcare taxes and the third year increase on universal health insurance premiums.

People like you, and Pelosi, should be stood against a wall and shot. Period.

You are vermin, same as she is.

Neither of you deserve to live in the United States of America.

Then it's a very good thing for you that they put in a public option.

So Lu

Now you think you know how to run someones business better than them? Speaks volumes.

"(D) enable the real-time (or near real-time) determination of an individual’s financial responsibility at the point of service and, to the extent possible, prior to service, including whether the individual is eligible for a specific service with a specific physician at a specific facility, on a specific date or range of dates, include utilization of a machine-readable health plan beneficiary identification card or similar mechanism;"

See page 77 and 78 of the bill.

LU, you might be happy to give the government electronic access to your bank account. I'm not so enthused. You NEVER READ OR EVEN LOOKED AT THE BILL AND YET YOU SUPPORT IT. There are so many problems and issues with this bill it is not even funny. What an embarrassment.

There are 214 instances where the word TAX appears in the document. That pretty much never appears in my current insurance document!

They are taxing medical devices - 2.5%. Don't believe me? Read page 339 of the bill.

The bill has been out for 15 minutes and you're already on page 339?

Wow...that's amazing...

LU,

Did you download the bill to verify that I am incorrect? No, you didn't because you never try to bolster your arguments with crazy things like facts and logic.

See, what I did was use a little feature on my computer known as SEARCH. The document is a PDF. You should read some of it sometime.

Dear Business owner,

You will do nothing of the sort. Quit posturing.

You still WILL hire as many people as you need to keep your business running and you still WILL pay them as much as the market dictates. If not you will not have a business.

It is however going to put a dent in your profiteering.

So what if they are taxing medical devices at 2.5 % ? What does that mean ? How is any different from what is happening right now ?

LU you might also want to look at the premium costs that are written into this program for high-risk pools and I am betting public option also. They are geared to be 125% of the "insurance market" price. What on earth good does that do for people who cannot afford insurance? They can buy it from Uncle Sam at an additional 25%?

LU, you do realize that everyone will be forced to have medical insurance and if not you will be fined. You obviously don't know what the bill stipulates. And people keep mentioning public option without even knowing what it means.

MrIndia,

"So what if they are taxing medical devices at 2.5 % ? What does that mean ? How is any different from what is happening right now ?"

It means that the government is adding a tax that wasn't there before. This means that you will pay more for medical devices. You really do not have a clue, do you?

Mrindia...

You still WILL hire as many people as you need to keep your business running and you still WILL pay them as much as the market dictates. If not you will not have a business.

At least for Small companies it doesnt work that way Mrindia...

It works like this, you employee as many ppl as you can afford to keeping you in your small profit range, and YOU the Owner work 60+ hours a week to keep up the slack and your business open.

Mrindia

When was the last time you received a paycheck from a poor person. You obviously do not understand the risk taken by small business owners. Something goes wrong you get another job, they have to find a new place to live. Let me see you put your house on the line so you can risk everything to provide jobs only to have the government make it harder and more of a risk.

You still WILL hire as many people as you need to keep your business running and you still WILL pay them as much as the market dictates. If not you will not have a business.

Yes you evil, evil, evil profiteering small business owner that pays taxes so you can help support the less fortunate. How dare you work so you can money for yourself and your employees. Evil, Evil, Evil

Looks like our Gov has succeeded in poisoning some minds of the weak

"Federal subsidies would be available ... and to small businesses as an incentive to offer coverage to their workers." - How does this upset small business' applecart?

addiem,

Why do you think they are offering federal subsidies? My guess is BECAUSE IT WILL COST THEM MORE MONEY TO RUN THEIR BUSINESS!!! Do you think that the subsidies will completely cover the new costs? Let me help you there too - THEY WILL NOT COVER THE NEW COSTS!!!

RV - then have your employee pick up the additional cost beyond the subsidy you get. This isn't about "free", people will still pay for coverage.

addiem, Many employers will sadly have their employees pick up this cost by laying them off or firing them completely. When people say that this bill will cost jobs, this is what they mean. The employees will not make enough money on their paycheck to cover the added costs.

Sorry to have to explain this to you, but it is how many businesses work. But hey, look on the bright side, while they are unemployed, the public option might cost less than COBRA!

Rv - sorry, people need to pick up at least part of their cost. Our HMO is nearly $12k a year for a family of four, employer pays half - and our policy has a $5k deductible - so the HMO pays $42 for an office visit, and I pay $143. My sibling only pays $370 a month for 2, but only pays $20 an office visit - which is way too low.

There has to be a happy medium. And the sooner I can flush the HMO, the happier I'll be.

You might want to read this bill. If you think the public option is better than your HMO, I feel REALLY sorry for you. You REALLY need to read the bill closely. That way you can make an informed decision. Make sure you read it like it is YOUR insurance policy!

Merrill, how do you figure when small businesses are going to be given gov't subsidies to offset the costs ??

What a bunch of whiners. I just went through the first 80 pgs of the bill and I can't see a thing I object to except the part about raising premium rates or cutting benefits if there are insufficient funds during any year within the gov't health exchange.

WAHHHHHH.... ONE questionable point... as opposed to HUNDREDS of positive actions that will benefit everyone.

I have one word for you all S-E-L-F-I-S-H

Obviously gemini you are not one of the 20% that pay all the taxes!!!

MrIndia;

You still WILL hire as many people as you need to keep your business running and you still WILL pay them as much as the market dictates. If not you will not have a business.

Where do you see the posturing? You said the same thing;"If not you will not have a business." Business owners are simply saying THIS is what you can expect to happen as they try; "still WILL hire as many people as you need to keep your business running and you still WILL pay them as much as the market dictates"

Costs are passed on in the price of goods. All expenses therein are juggled to keep the price competitive. When the price (due to expense) is no longer competitive, no one buys.

Then it becomes: No sales, no income, no goods needed, no work to do, no more jobs, no more business.

I believe that's one of the main issues that they are trying to take care of.

The bill should be on the web shortly so that everyone can see for themselves..but of course there will be those that are against it because it's too long to read..

It will be so long because of all the pork they are going to use to buy votes. Wouldn't you prefer a bill that passed on it's merits, not by buying votes?

Read the entire bill here (.pdf)
Here's the link for the Bill.

Rob

The American people are willing to help those who work and run into hardships. Unfortunately, the very programs that get passed by compassionate voters for people like you inevitably lose their original concept and set up rightful contempt for any policies that lead to long term entitlements.

Under the current "stimulus" plan, COBRA premiums are being subsidized by govt for "x" amount of time. Solutions, such as this and others, have some possibilities as being more palatable by taxpayers who believe in temporary safety nets as opposed to govt dependent lifestyles.

what about if you lose your job? I want guarentees that if I lose my job, I will still be able to obtain affordable quality healthcare.

The only Guarentees in life are Death and Taxes.. Everything else is up to you to make sure it happens. NOT the Gvmnt.

Madison: That's why Obama told banks to start loaning money to small businesses, right?? Get real man.

verno,

Stick to the topic. This bill (remember, the health care bill, the one from the article we are talking about) will cost small businesses a GREAT DEAL OF MONEY!! I've downloaded this 1,990 page monstrocity and it is just as bad as HR3200.

If small businesses need to take out loans and pay interest so that they can pay more Human Resource employees to manage this piece of garbage, people are going to get laid off so that the company can pay NON PRODUCTIVE HUMAN RESOURCE EMPLOYEES TO MANAGE THIS.

You need to take out a loan from Obama to buy a clue.

Ooooo...Obama told them too...that'll fix it...LOL! Get really real verno Figure heads don't have nearlly as much pull as you think they do.

Verno if small businesses are losing money due to high taxes, cumbersome regulations, high energy and high healthcare costs, banks can loan out as much money as Obama forces them to, the businesses will fail, the loans will default and then Obama will be bailing out his bank buddies once again.

HANDOUTS DON'T WORK.

Obama is anti-small business and his "small business" loan face time does not change the facts.

Yeah Verno, I'm a small business owner amd I really don't need a loan...yet. I'd be happy with people spending money again so I can stay in business. Fix the little people first and our nation may have a fighting chance. Keep fixing from the top down and we'll continue on the path we're on...it takes waaay too long for things to trickle down from the greed at the top.

Careful not to feed the libs too many facts VAGuy, they have a hard time processing them! Best of luck in your elections next Tuesday...I hope your new Governor does a great job!

Ramzilla - You'll love this. McDonnell - Republican - used to lead Deeds - Democrat - by 9 points or so. So Obama stepped in to stump for Deeds and "hope" his star power would "change" the numbers for Deeds. Indeed they did! Now McDonnell leads by 16 points!

The Virginia governor's race next Tuesday is turning out to be a referendum on the radical agenda coming out of Washington.

I know Virginia is gonna get called backwards, hillbilly, racist, regressive, and all manner of vile and completely untrue things by the radical left. Let me say right now that's complete BS. Virginia was the first state in the entire country to elect an African American Governor (in 1990), and we were squarely for Obama last year. The fact is that the shocking radical agenda from Washington has resulted in a complete loss of the Democratic base in VA, and has really galvanized independents and Republicans.

I totally agree. As a Virginian, I'm squarely behind McDonnell for Governor. We made our opinions known on the Fed's agenda and the Democrats didn't listen, now we vote. President Obama, Bill Clinton and the Washington Post won't get Deeds elected. Deeds' attempt to smear McDonnell for a thesis he wrote while in college won't work either. Now is the time for CHANGE and, hopefully, this election is the beginning. Public servants have turned into kings and they don't know what's best for us - we do and we vote it. They should listen!

Yes, we had the first black governor, Wilder, and the state was solidly behind Obama. I didn't vote for him because I felt he was too inexperienced to lead our country. I still feel that way.

Have you studied economics? Its called scales of economies...the larger the base, the lower the costs to the whole. That's basic economics too.

And why hasn't anyone addressed one of the key points about this bill....it would stop protecting Insurance companies from ANTI-TRUST LAWS!!!!!!!! Atleast people on this board from both sides should appreciate that.

Yes I have, actually.

I don't think the economy of scale effect has any real impact here. We're going from 85% to 96% coverage. That is only an incremental increase to the size of the base that won't drive down costs much at all.

Fact is there is already a shortage of doctors and nurses. The inflationary effect of increased demand will far outweigh any small economies of scale.

Bottom line, this program does nothing to reduce costs - it only allows certain classes of people to pay less (a big difference, NOT actual cost reduction) thanks to government money printing, taxation and redistribution, and deficit spending by removing the connection between what people pay for insurance and what it actually costs to provide it. The government will run its plan at a huge loss, with hugely negative cashflow, and will make up the difference in taxation, wealth redistribution, debt, and currency expansion - none of which are good. Private insurers don't have these options, so they will not be able to "compete".

To point out antitrust benefits as a positive of the bill has merit, but that hardly makes the case for the overall package.

Prismlady - It's really funny that even Wilder knows the agenda coming out of Washington is so toxic, that he refuses to endorse fellow Democrat Deeds for Governor. Obama is even starting the damage control now, blaming Deeds already for the poor showing. It will be very entertaining to see how this is spun.

But be clear everyone - this is nothing short of a referendum on the radical agenda of Obama, Pelosi and Reid. I could run my dog against Deeds and win.

The cracks are starting to show in the Democratic power grabbing machine. I only hope we can stop it before it's too late.

nice tolerant answer. Kill the old people.

You're right VAGuy...I did love that! Go McDonnell! Get out the VOTE VA!

let the kids FU, this comming from a 67 year old, too bad your mother wasn't covered under the abortion rights!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by the way let the kids run at 67 and have been working out for the past 40 years i can guarantee you i could BIG TIME kick your wimpy butt around the block more than once.

Let kids run things.....so you're suggesting that everyone over 65 that is diagnosed with a disease such as cancer which in many instances can be cured or put into remission just give up and die?

That's pretty cruel if you ask me. Personally, I would like to have the option of deciding if and when I am diagnosed, and in the meantime I will do everything to keep myself healthy and out of the medical system. You have that choice as well...are you 65 yet? Probably not, because if you were you would know that people that age have the possibility of another 30 years of good life ahead of them.

Good for VA!

And to "let the kids run.." - Maybe we should just let the stupid die - that would pretty much seal your fate.

Love your post NC!

I agree with you in principle, maybe 65 is a bit early, but it is crazy to spend hundreds of thousands to keep someone alive in a hospital bed when they are ready to die naturally.

" I'd rather die while I'm living than live while I'm dead" ( Jimmy Buffett ) Think about it, it makes a lot of sense to me.

Wing, it will eventually apply to all of us once the private insurance cos. can no longer afford to stay in business. Then we will get wonderful doctors who are underpaid and overstressed with way too many patients. What a utopia America will be then. Might as well just get up and go to work, forget about going to the doctor.

Bob...I think we already have that. The last time I went to see my Doctor she didn't spend 10 minutes with me, and told me I didn't have to come back...ever....unless I was sick. So much for wellness care!

Bob_101,

Apparently you are not facing knee replacement with a $7,000 out-of-pocket deductible. Yes, $7,000 out of my pocket to be divvied up among the greedy, heartless bastards who already make, not “earn”, shameless millions. It’s all about power…keeping the less fortunate down. Keep the enemy weak and sick and precious power will face no threats. Hail to the almighty life-protectors of the health (?) insurance business.

Wing, so your answer is to take from everyone to cover your health needs? How is that an answer? Its like saying "Damn it, I'm miserable, everyone else should be too." Just kill capitalism and our freedoms for the sake of a few. Take away the futures our kids could have and replace it with something that will keep them in there places. I'm not thinking about my knees, I'm thinking of my childs freedoms.

Again and again, other options have been put forward to be investigated and nothing has been done. They have died at the steps of Congress before even being looked into. Why are they dead set on only one option and not looking into others? Our Government wasn't set up to provide to the needy, it was set up to provide the needy every opportunity to make something of themselves. Thats what they should be doing, not providing Health Insurance.

Bob, don’t you dare refer to me as one of the needy. I grew up understanding the meaning of hard work…physical and intellectual. I grew up independent, not needing much help to get where I am in life. My guess is that you grew up sheltered and fairly well-off, protected from the unpleasantry that real life can and does present. I don’t think you have a clue of what’s going on in the real world nor do you care. Maybe you are so insecure that you fear the little people rising up and taking from you.

…your “children’s freedoms”? Oh my, what a noble and self-righteous cause. Just exactly what are they going to be free from? Exposure to the undesirables? Life’s often brutal lessons? The burdens of the needy? Original thought? The daring for compassion?

I believe you owe me an apology for assuming that I am something less than you. I assure you that I am as worthy as you and all those far above you and far below you in life.

What exactly is a rethug? Economy was moving right along until the dems took control of the congress, You know, the people who enact law!! Pelosi and her minions ran this country into the ground, and I guess they want to take us down further!

If this bill doesn't pass the insurance companies and medical industry will know that they have another 10 years to gouge the market....and that is exactly what they will do...

Crazy: and also remember that while the dems barely had a majority in 2007, we still had a Republican president that could have vetoed anything the dems passed. The did not have a veto proof majority. But that is an easy thing to forget if you want to, right??

This is the problem...they cram too many aspects into one bill, so it becomes an 'all or nothing proposition'.

After looking at the Table of Contents for this 1990 page monster, sure there are some good points in there, but the timing is retarded, and it's watered down. Negotiating rates with ins. co's? wft? How spineless is that?

Yup going to take a while to get through but there are some idiotic aspects I have already read in it and I am only around page 100 sofar.

I have to admit to being completely baffled by the logic that creates a "high-risk" pool for people who cannot get/afford insurance that then proceeds to set the premium at 125% of what the "insurance market" would charge. Which part of CAN NOT AFFORD does Pelosi not understand??? If someone can't afford $1000 what the heck makes her think they can afford $1250????????????

LOL

Woodysr, you do know that the figure was based on 10 years of funding and 5 years of service. So the actual figure, which is probably 2 or 3 times too low is 1.6 trillion.

Anytime the government cites a figure, I always double it for a more realistic cost. At least this will create jobs at the US Mint printing money 24/7.

"Happy cows come from California"

Well, these dairy farms are major industry farms, owned by foriegn investors. Thats your USA today reality check. Now Pelosi is a happy cow, who is pulling her @#@.

This is down right silly, we are going to spend a trillion or more dollars so that instead of 85% 96% of Americans will have insurance, that's an 11% increase in the number of people insured.

Folks, this has never been about health care, or health care insurance, but rather government getting control of the dollars that are spent on health care. They (Congress) don't give a rats bottom if you are insured. They could with the sweep of a pen extend Medicare benefits to anyone who is without insurance today. This is all about the government getting control of wealth so they can distributed it in a manner of their liking.

God help us, oh wait, I can't say that can I.

anyone who thinks this will be less ten 1 trillion dollars is a complete moron.

To Miranda: Not realy its already starting. Never thought I would see the medical field start laying medical staff off but I'm starting to already see it.Only means you'll wait longer.I have a meeting today with some HA on conference call and it should be very interesting as I am sure they have some estimate where this could go.

I always do wonder how the leftards think? Do they? I here referances to the last eight years the fist six of witch were some of the greatest economic times we have or will ever see in our life times. Jobs were abundant until the democrats took over the last two bush years i seen jobs decrease and when they completely took over the job market went compleately to hell.

The democratic answer is to spend spend spend but who is going to pay pay pay we dont even have that amount of money in all of the usa. I would love to take nancys money spend it all and all of her kids money and her grand kids and not stop just hammer them like the are hammering this country into a hellish nightmare.

What kind of dumbclucks vote for these idiots?

DO you hate the usa that much? Why not just move to that third world country you are trying so hard to create?

I never use to care about polictics until this the worst administration in the history of this country got into the misery of this once great country, they are trying so hard to destroy. I now hate the democrats.

It all just seems so treasonis! I bet in some countries they would be hung.

Rob, You're an idiot. Keep believing the Liberal script. Pull your head out boy. This will bring this country to its knees. Let the revolution begin!!