ccryder:

Top three reasons to support health insurance reform.

With those as the top reasons, then allow those people who don't have insurance and those who can't get insurance (pre-existing conditions), obtain Medicaid and leave the rest of us alone with our current insurance.

I will tell you why they don't allow the above:

1. They want to "spread the wealth", they don't think it is fair for others to have a different plan that they can pay for.

2. They need to force everyone on the plan so they can control everybody's healthcare (well-being).

3. They need to tax everybody to pay for the coverage for those mentioned above.

The will of the american people does not matter to the democrats and they are going to force this upon us, even if we don't like it, and we don't.

If they force the healcare legislation down our throats in 2009, we will stick it up their donkeys in 2010. That is not a threat, that is a promise.

"Members of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus object to a provision in the Senate legislation — backed by the White House — that bars illegal immigrants from buying health insurance within a proposed new marketplace, or exchange, even if they use their own money to buy from private companies."

What is it that these folks do not understand? Illegal immigrants are just that, Illegal immigrants. They did not STAND IN LINE to obtain the proper paperwork to enter this country LEGALLY. If Congress puts verbiage into the Universal Health Care Plan which will allow them to "buy in", then they too will be breaking the law, PERIOD.

And I do not like the Government MANDATING that I have to purchase a Health Care Plan. Since when does the Government have this authority. Another issue which this Administration is completely ignoring the Constitution.

If a taxpayer cannot sue the Government, then maybe legal action against those voting for this plan should be considered.

health insurance reform, yes

govt healthcare, no

The delay wouldn't have anything to do with New Jersey or Virginia, would it? Blue dogs beware! If you follow radical Pelosi, you'll be out in '10! Guaranteed!

Plain and simple - this bill needs to be thrown away. Start fresh - address the problems with the present system. People don't need to build a new house because there is a leaky faucet...

Ido, by allowing illegal immigrants the ability to purchase health insurance it would solve the issue of them going to the emergency rooms for their care, which we pay for in the end anyways. Wouldn't allowing the millions of illegal immigrants this option possibly lower our costs?

You're correct. The government does not have the right to make you buy insuarance. BUT THEY WILL have the right if they choose to pass it into law. Obviously, they can make any law they want to. It's called "representative democracy," and therefore it really doesn't matter if anyone disagrees with them or not.

Similarly, if you're in the minority and you don't like what's happening in America, you still have to follow the laws. It's called "democracy." The majority wins. Period.

The reason they want to make everyone buy insurance is because the bill bans insurance companies from rejecting people with prexisting conditions. If people didn't have to have insurance, then they could just buy it right after they needed it, and then drop it after they became well, so they'd only have to pay the premiums for the length of their illness. There wouldn't be enough premiums to pay the claims.

Get it? If people could just get insurance only when they needed it, people wouldn't pay for it ongoing, because that'd be a pointless waste of money, so they'd just buy it right after they broke their leg, for instance, and then pay the premiums until they didn't need more medical care. The premiums during those few months would NEVER be enough to pay the huge claim.

the cbo report on the house bill estimates that 2% will be covered.2% for 1.2 trillion dollars.those 2% will be in a high risk pool that will have premiums that are more than private insurance.those that need health care reform the most will not be eligible until 2013.the rest of us will be forced into private insurance or medicare.medicare,by the way,has denied more claims than any insurance company,according to the insurance industry report.this bill does not address either of the main goals of reform,bringing down cost or expanding coverage.please read the cbo report published by the ap!

i thought illegal aliens would not be covered any way.please don't tell me the president lied.and there is no way abortion should be funded with tax payer funds.

Does anyone understand the definition of illegal? Not 1/2 illegal, but illegal.

something must be up, a delay? their mo is to push something through before anyone has a chance to ask questions or even read the bill.

This is not about "health care" folks! This is about government takeover of the insurance industry! Read your annual tax statements! You're paying taxes to your local county hospitals for indigent care! They don't have to pay a dime to get medical care - and don't cry about it being poor health care. Parkland Hospital in Dallas, TX offers indigent care as a county hospital and gives some of the best health care in the country.

Remember your representatives in Congress in 2010 elections that are forcing this down your throats! They ignore the majority of American voters that want no part of this socialist health care program.

You libs out there answer me this: If Obama's health care program is so good for all Americans, why is HE EXEMPTING himself and HIS FAMILY from having to participate in it????

I understand that many of these illegals came here for a better life but there is a right way and a wrong way of doing things. Send them all back and let them enter legally or not at all. What is wrong with our government. The more that we reward these illegals the more (illegals) we will have. Unemployment is at 10.2% we need to send these people back home and have Americans out of work get those jobs. With the jobless rate being as high as it is I am sure that we can find plenty of Americans to take those jobs. I am with the sheriff in Arizona - get out if you do not belong here because we have enough problems of our own right now and cannot take care of everyone.

I am just waiting for this beotch to try to force me or any other American citizen to buy anything. This health care bill won't pass judicial muster. It's going to be tied up in court forever.

He said he still expects passage Saturday night. But he added that some Democrats are still "looking to get a comfort level" with the bill.

And in Everyday non congress speak that means..

We expect this to pass once we put enough pork into the bill to line the pockets of their home state, even if it doesnt have anything to do with health care. Once we buy enough votes this will pass.

Maybe CCryder can pay for this monstrosity. I know someone who's newborn had a birth defect and required several open heart surgeries. He has no insurance. Medicare will cover it. There are also numerous Free clinics in every city. Wake up man. This is nothing more than a huge power grab from the commies in power. BTW, I am an Indie not a Repub. This is about so much more than Red and Blue team. No to socialism. Yes to Freedom before it is too late.

The present system does not work didnt you get that yet? And would you stop building your house because of a leaky faucet? Woa how do you call that? How about stupidity?

I would suggest to fix the leaky faucet instead. And asap.

There should be no federal money for illegal immigrants and definitely for abortions at will and private business should not get forced to provide health insurance. If they choose not to provide health insurance they should be asked to pay a proportional fee to support the public option or some other avenue must be found.

Who ever does not want health insurance they will have to pay a fee to support the system.

"Asked Thursday if she had the votes, Speaker Nancy Pelosi replied: "We will."

I wonder what that is going to cost in the way of earmarks and ammendments to buy the votes to get this POS passed??

Go USA - you are right they don't have the authority to require anyone to purchase anything and to try to do so is a violation of a person's civil liberties. Even if they get this passed there will be massive class action suits against them trying to force people to buy it.

After yesterday's demonstrations and the call for people to phone their representatives today and tomorrow, I doubt the Dems have 218 votes by Sunday. By the time these politicians get to voting a bunch of them will realize that their constituents won't vote for them in 2010. Reagan tried to get a bill passed years ago for socialized medicine and almost none of the people who voted for it got re-elected the next election! This will be a repeat of the same thing.......better look out in DC, you're not going to be there much longer.

The AARP members do not support this! The big shot in power at AARP does not have the seniors' support for this. Mr Big told them they had to support it and they told him refund our memberships!

A couple of problems:

1.) Why does anyone care if we make it illegal for illegals to purchase anything through a government coordinated "exchange"? The only reason I could agree with is if we're using it to identify and then get rid of said illegals, otherwise it's like allowing pedophiles to become elementary school teachers, it caters to and perpetuates the problem. Why don't we just make it as comfortable and easy as possible for illegals to pillage our social programs that are already strained and over used by our own people?

2.) We're going to spend $1.2 trillion over 10 years to still not cover roughly 12 million people? So what exactly are we doing? Obviously we don't have an accurate number of uninsured but we do know a lot of the people that go into any of the quoted numbers we have heard are illegals and young Americans who choose not to have insurance. So we force young Americans to buy insurance or penalized them and we allow the illegals to exploit our system and we're still left with 12 million people uninsured, who are most likely the ones who should be benefiting in the first place!

Not only has the President and Congress framed the problem wrong from the beginning, they then attempted to address a solution to the wrong problem and now their "solution" for the wrong problem isn't a solution at all and yet it comes with a $1.2 trillion price tag! Where is the logic in that? Wake up America, this is the biggest crime in history, well either this or the "stimulus package". Where's the money going?

Go USA - you are right they don't have the authority to require anyone to purchase anything and to try to do so is a violation of a person's civil liberties. Even if they get this passed there will be massive class action suits against them trying to force people to buy it.

After yesterday's demonstrations and the call for people to phone their representatives today and tomorrow, I doubt the Dems have 218 votes by Sunday. By the time these politicians get to voting a bunch of them will realize that their constituents won't vote for them in 2010. Reagan tried to get a bill passed years ago for socialized medicine and almost none of the people who voted for it got re-elected the next election! This will be a repeat of the same thing.......better look out in DC, you're not going to be there much longer.

The AARP members do not support this! The big shot in power at AARP does not have the seniors' support for this. Mr Big told them they had to support it and they told him refund our memberships! AMA is having worse trouble with their doctors. The Doctors hired their own lobbyists to fight this bill. Ooops, Obama hasn't got these memberships behind him just promises from their leaders who are losing their memberships' support.

CCRyder - There is a big difference in Reform and a Pelosi Mandate. None of us in our right minds want to pay exhorbitant health care cost and are for some type of reform. Not this massive overhaul when other things can be tried like TORT reform, oops lot of those Pelosi congressmen are lawyers. I beg to differ with you when you say they haven't bowed to the lobbyist. Oh how naive you are. The AARP are one of the biggest lobbyist in the country. They will benefit greatly from this with the deals that are being made behind closed doors. And check out how many of those who are writing this bill have received monies from lobbyist. Then there is the pork, the favors and the LIES!

As for the illegals, Obama isn't dumb. He's going to grant them amnesty after he gets his bill passed so they can hop on the bandwagon. Then, we will get more illegals to fill those who have been given amnesty and the process will go on and on. Reagan granted amnesty and nothing was done to prevent any further illegal immigration and here we are with over 12 million. It won't end because both parties are so afraid of losing the "illegal" votes. What is good for the country always takes a back seat. Now we are not even allowed to respond whether we are US citizens on the census form as we may offend those very illegals! Jeez, this is unbelievable. When they knock on my door I think I'll tell them I'm illegal, maybe I'll get perks for that. We will be changing the national anthem next from "what so proudly we hail" to "what so sadly we bail". The Politically Correct, Pushy Advocates that keep shoving this stuff at us are ruining this country. My father fought in WW2 and is still alive. It's sad when he says he's glad he won't be around to see the final fall.

Can't pass it through the House members who "support" it and still saying Americans want it.

Nancy, maybe, they're just saying "NO".

Government takeover of health care is not necessary. If you want to get rid of the pre-existing conditions, get rid of employer based healthcare by making insurance with the person instead of with an employers. Convert the employer plans to individual plans. The employer can still share the cost as part of benefits

I have an individual plan. I lost my job last month. If I was not on an individual plan I would have no insurance and all members of my family would have "pre-existing" conditions, forturnately, not serious ones.

No, they don't have the votes. They haven't paid enough politcal capital or earmarks to buy the votes. This is how TARP went form $700 Bln to $853 Bln as well as the cost of this bill keeps going up.

"Some Democrats are still 'looking to get a comfort level' with the bill."

Impossible.

The bill is an unmanagable mess, cuts off our current insurance in 5 years, will cost over $2.2 trillion and creates over 100 new bureaucracies, and the voters know it.

Pelosi, Hoyer and Obama's Marxist dreams, fading fast.

The Democrats are more worried about getting re elected by their State Districts than the fiasco the Health Care Bill is causing.

They're finally catching on to the Majority of American people who do not want any part of this.

Pelosi, the queen of The Heath Care Bill. Who could believe this fragile woman along with Harry Reid, Barney Frank and the President, whom let's them take the heat. The Czars also.

President Obama isn't as nice as most people want to believe. He has a Master Plan for all of you.

I am (was) a member of AARP.

After their announcement yesterday - I called and cancelled my membership with them - and made is very clear while I was on the phone that I DO NOT SUPPORT this bill.

Do I support Health Care Refore ... yes I do. NOT with a projected cost of $1.2 TRILLION dollars that no doubt will exceed $2-3 TRILLION dollars to actually execute.

A better plan is needed.

Again - I guarantee that in 2010 this voter, and many many similar thinking people in Southern AZ, will absolutely vote against anyone who supports this bill. That is not a threat - it is a promise that will be fulfilled. Guaranteed.

We are the INDEPENDENTS - we dont give a damn about Republican or Democratic political agendas. We care about this country! And America does have the $2-3 TRILLION dollars to do this!

We need a better plan!

This one NEEDS TO fail because it is financially irresponsible. Period!

MarkD...

They shouldn't be here in the first place. Fix that problem and the issue with illegals having/buying/wanting health insurance goes AWAY!

I hope the republicans get more than two rolls each month,,,with all the BS they spew out they need a lot more Allen. Tell me Allen,,are you going to collect Social Security when the times comes? or are you one of the macho big mouths on here that says they will refuse it? When your private insurance runs out are you going to sign up for Medicare?,,,or again are you going to tell us that you don't need it, that you planned for this all your life and are self sufficientin your health needs..BS only goes so far and your way beyond your allotted mileage.

"The Democrats are more worried about getting re elected by their constitutents"

Exactly. It's one thing to be a liberal, but it's another to go for sweeping government control. That's why some of the dems are giving pause here.

Even some dems are beginning to understand the tide of anti-progressive sentiment, that increases on a daily basis.

While progressivism may have been "all the rage" in the anit-Bush years, it's starting to come out of fashion.

The deranged democrats run around like a pack of dazed wolves, banging off walls, nipping and growling at each other, eyes glazed, while the pack leader continues to howl.

We are cancelling our AARP, also..

Boy, did they do themselves in---They are not to be trusted.

The Democrats are real slick when it comes to sticking 40 pages more to the bill which covers illegal's & abortion. People need to speak out other wise they will get away with it. Also I like to know why don't these elected officials in Washington drop their healthcare plan coverage and take this same Obama care that their trying to force upon us?

cmon-864012 #1.13,

You mean that you don't understand how things work in Washington ?

When you tell everyone that the bill will pass within a specific time, and it's real close on the vote, then comes the bartering process. "How badly do you want this bill to have the votes to pass?" "Well, what do you want in order for us to get your vote?"

Deals are made. The bill passes. And as usual, the stated price tag for the bill goes up, to pay for all those riders that were added at the last minute so the crappy bill would pass. Guess who pays for this? The taxpayers do !

If you liked how they handled the Swine Flu shots you will love health care. I also informed my mother that I will not be renewing her AARP membership either.

Bobr - There is not going to be any SS or Medicare - THEY ARE BROKE!!!!

Show me how this bill is health care reform and I will back it. But most of us know it is not reform it's adding to the enrollment and control. This does not reform heath care!

Anyone remember this speech?

http://www.theospark.net/2009/09/video-7-lies-in-under-2-minutes.html

GO USA,

I agree you should not be required to buy health insurance. You should, however, be required to pay the entire bill out of your pocket if you ever need health care.

What is cheaper?Why should I have to pay higher premiums to cover your sorry a@s!!

I say the Federal Government not only doesn't have the authority to make me purchase there brand of healthcare. But Obama' Pelosi & Co. can come one by one and Kiss my A**!

Note to Vine Administrator:

If you are going to allow the censorship via "collapsing" of perfectly acceptable commentary you are then simply using this MSNBC sponsored link to promote your personal bias.

Is there not a code of ethics that MSNBC requires of its administrators ??

Why not just tell the real story.

ALL of the House seats are up for re-election in 12 months, and a lot of Democrats don't want this albatross around their necks going into those elections, especially since Obama's "coattails" failed so miserably in Virginia and New Jersey.

This bill is a real turkey, and the Republicans will have the next 12 months to find bad things in it to tie to the Democrats that vote for it.

And then there's Cap & Trade, which will cost millions of more jobs.

Obama doesn't seem capable of making hard decisions, as in Afghanistan, so his normal procedure is to stall, and stall, and stall.

THEY ARE LYING AGAIN! Voting is Saturday! The "delay" is to make you think it will be Saturday so the protestors will be too late!!! There is NO VOTE ON SUNDAY

Guys let's not be hypocrites. Eliminate ALL Government healthcare NOW.

MY taxes pay for Bernie Maddoff's Government Healthcare. WHY ???

Glad to see that AARP (and its costly history of Lobbying) is losing its membership in droves. Now that's a silver lining.

I have the easy solution, STOP PAYING YOUR TAXES! Everyone, and I mean everyone needs to band together and file exempt, and/or when it comes time to file and pay your tax just don't do it. The Gestapo Gov run IRS cant put everyone in jail, and it will speak volumes to the politico that this is the new Burger King, we WILL have things done our way, our you don't get payment at the window until we do! Aren't you tired of having your hard earned tax dollars go towards crap that doesn't even help you? And yet the cut funding for project/services that we DO want/need or jsut raise taxes to make up for what they misused/diverted to their lobbyist pals contractors. REVOLUTION!

CCRyder - There are 38,000 people killed on our highways each year. Are you nutbags going to outlaw cars and trucks next "because it's for the good of the people".

Geez, you people (liberals) never cease to amaze me.

mickeyj: I have never taken one dime from the government. I have worked since I was 14 years old and paid taxes. Your attack on me was unwarranted and only used as a last resort because you have no cogent argument to offer. And if you had read my post, you would see that what I was saying is that the government has no Constitutional authority to require its citizens to purchase anything. As far as paying for one's own health care, we are in agreement. Doesn't that just make you want to scream?

Some people may not like/understand this post. I’m going to start off by defining what insurance actually is, what pre-existing conditions are and why they cannot be insured and the foundation of realistic and intelligent reform/change that does not include the government taking over the health insurance industry. Pay attention you might learn something and this is all fact except for my opinion at the end, so don’t try to argue the facts.

Insurance- a basic definition- two parties enter a contract, one party pays premiums to the other party who agrees to accept those premiums and pay a claim if an UNFORSEEN event and claim arise. That is a basic, but true definition. The UNFORSEEN part is the most important.

Pre-existing conditions (catastrophic) - they are just that, an existing condition. Pre-existing conditions are not insurable because that person has a 100% chance of incurring a claim. The whole basis of insurance is the UNFORSEEN part. You can’t insure something where the claim is a sure thing because your premiums would be the cost of your claim.

If the Government mandates Private Insurance companies to insure applicants with pre-existing conditions, one of two things will happen, the insurance companies will become insolvent because the pool of money will be paid to these pre-existing conditions claims and go out of business, or they will raise the premiums through the roof to cover these pre-existing conditions and the premiums will be too high for average people to pay, then do you know where everyone will end up? The Government Option. The US Government is the only “company” that can cover people with pre-existing conditions because they will just tax or print more money to cover the expenses. No private company can cover these people and stay solvent.

The Government mandate for private insurance companies to cover applicants with pre-existing conditions is simply the first step towards a single payer system.

If they want to do logical/meaningful reform where the government does not take over and ruin the health insurance industry, here is what needs to happen:

Everyone without pre-existing conditions will need to purchase health insurance.. PRIVATE health insurance (sold across state lines with tort reform). If someone chooses not to get the insurance, they will be on the hook for any medical expenses they incur during their life (no government bail out for them). Anyone with a pre-existing condition will have to go on government insurance, and once everyone with pre-existing conditions are gone, pre-existing conditions will be a thing of the past and everyone will be covered under PRIVATE insurance. It has some work to be done, but that is a foundation to real reform/change without the government destroying our health system.

DWF,

This is not Healthcare reform, this is a battle over power & control! Why does the Obama' & The Liberals make this issue there #1 priority? I have to ask' should this be Obama's #1 priority? I seen today that the jobless rate is up to 10.2% and i'm part of that number myself! This country is doing nothing but loosing job's since the Liberals took over congress in 2006. Real easy to beat the 8 years of George Bush Policies drum for Obama' i say Bulls**t! I had a job when George Bush was president!!!

I see the Obama' Administration doing nothing but artificially stimulating the economy with cash for clunkers & first time home buyers program to buy time! Time To get the healthcare bill passed and start on Cap 'n' Tax bill. Obama is systematically taking over this economy to instill his brand of socialism! what else could explain the reason why the Obama Administrations #1 PRIORITY! is not' jobloss and the economy? I fail to see how healthcare reform is more important at this time than what drives this country>ECONOMY<>JOBS<

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schwannomin Comment collapsed by the community

The bill would cover 96 percent of Americans, providing government subsidies beginning in 2013 to extend coverage to millions who now lack it.

96% is not 100%, but it's pretty darn good. Congrats to the House for putting lobbying interests aside and moving forward on this needed legislation that will save lives. It's time for gov't to work for Americans.

Pelosi might just end up with a monument to her. (And I know that makes the neo-cons skin crawl.)

Never forget, when FDR proposed Social Security, the Repubs screamed socialism. When LBJ pushed for Medicare, the Repubs screamed socialism. Just like those great leaders, it is time to stand up to their slurs and pass reform NOW!

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#1.6 - Fri Nov 6, 2009 10:20 AM CST

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CCryder Comment collapsed by the community

Top three reasons to support health insurance reform.

1) 45,000 deaths a year are associated with a lack of health insurance. For details, see http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/09/18/deaths.health.insurance/index.html or http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/abstract/AJPH.2008.157685v1

2) Many Americans with "pre-existing" conditions are denied health insurance. Babies have been denied because they are too small or too large. People with pre-existing conditions might be offered a policy that doesn't cover those conditions. See http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_13671661

3) Long-time holders of health insurance can have those policies cancelled, just when they need them. This is called "recission" by the insurance industry, because they are rescinding your policy. See http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105680875 for a story of a woman with breast cancer who had her policy rescinded because she had had acne and a rapid heartbeat. Google "recission health care" for more examples.

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Home, home on the 'Vine,
Where the Repubs and the Neo-Cons play.
Where seldom is heard any dissenting words,
Because they collapse those comments for pay.

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#1.1 - Fri Nov 6, 2009 9:49 AM CST

Shouldn't they all be concerned about the safety of our troops right now instead of this crap?

Obama should be in Texas instead of planning a speech for saturday on the hill.

Troops get killed on an American Army base.

Camara to Obama:

Smile, talk about health care and the wonderful liberals,

talk about the wonderful plans we have for the Indian nation.

Oh yeah about those troops who died....

Took you long enough your emotionless fool!!!

Gov. Perry was nearly in tears for the great loss to our Nation and our Communist in Chief was stoic and addressed it like yesterdays news. Can he be anymore disrespectful??

Mari, cutting and pasting doesn't add value to that post.

Question for the Government: Why not just put together a health care bill SOLELY for those who are uninsured? They could pay a fair premium on a sliding scale, once they qualify to be included. Why make this nonsense a requirement for everyone like it or not? Then focus on tort reform and fraud in the entire system? Or, is that just too easy? (I'll bet some of the uninsured STILL wouldn't make health care a priority..just keep rolling the dice. )

Because "the One" does not give a crap about the military. It's a simple as that. He has a much bigger agenda. Can't be bothered with those little people. And they WILL sign a healthcare lunacy bill, because they just don't care. It's not about us, it's about them. I will go to jail before I will be forced to buy anything! For those of you sitting on your hands, waiting for your healthcare handout, guess again. We are all going to quit working, I mean, it works better that way,doesn't it? If this was truly about the REAL uninsured, we can fix that,and help them. But this is and never was about healthcare.

Mari - Pelosi won't need a monument built for her. She's already over half synthetic material anyway. For someone who claims to be so "green" and "eco-friendly" she overlooks the fact that she is not biodegradable and would last tens of thousands of years in a landfill, where she and her ideas and values belong.

MarkD-939276

Ido, by allowing illegal immigrants the ability to purchase health insurance it would solve the issue of them going to the emergency rooms for their care, which we pay for in the end anyways. Wouldn't allowing the millions of illegal immigrants this option possibly lower our costs?

How about the government follows the law and deports all of the illegal immigrants. If you want to be a citizen, get in line and follow the law. If we didn't have illegals immigrants, we wouldn't incur any costs to support them.

This is just another attempt by the government to redistibute wealth, make a power grab and establish an (illegal) voting base in hope of getting re-elected. This Administration is unconstitutional....honestly, I can't believe they feel they can force us to do anything. I already pay for my healthcare, I don't need to pay more so that 5 people can get coverage. The proposal says 96% of people will be covered. If you discount the illegal immigrants and those who just don't want to have or pay for insurance, then we are already at that figure!

Bob,

Shouldn't they all be concerned about the safety of our troops right now instead of this crap?

They live by the philosophy of, "never let a crisis go to waste".

So ... now I see that AARP (who sells insurance) endorses the plan. ... And the AMA ... I wonder why they see this as a benefit? Hmmmm! does anyone else see a relationship here? Is it possible that Medicare (as in government run healthcare) doesn't pay enough and if AARP sells the insurance (making money for AARP) they can charge more? I live in a district with a Democratic Representative that claims to be conservative. Here's his choice ... he votes for this, I vote for his opponent!

If there's a bi-partisan bill (no more Nancy's view of the world!), I'll consider it but this is one step too far towards Socialism!

The fact that some people would lose their coverage and then pay a fine makes this the ultimate insult. Of course that would open the door to a "government option" which has been the goal of comrade Nancy from the start.

Plain and simple - this bill needs to be thrown away. Start fresh - address the problems with the present system. People don't need to build a new house because there is a leaky faucet!

This is way bigger than a leaky faucet; it's more like a sinkhole!! And just what would you do to fix healthcare?? This problem has been around for 50 years and continues to get worse!!! People go bankrupt every day from medical bills; people die every day because they don't have insurance!! Yes, the bill may not be perfect and it will need tweeks in the coming years!! Have you any idea how many people are denied coverage for a preexisting condition??? We need healthcare and we need it now!!!!

Amen,  I emailed both my senators and my Congressman and told that just that.  The government should not be allowed to force me to carry insurance if I don't want it, and they definitely shouldn't be able to fine me.

Kick them all out, Congressional term limits are the answer.

What aren't they listening to us? What is going to happen to America if these guys aren't stopped?

We should have migrated all the way to Canada, seems that things are much better there.

John-660150
Get it? If people could just get insurance only when they needed it, people wouldn't pay for it ongoing, because that'd be a pointless waste of money, so they'd just buy it right after they broke their leg, for instance, and then pay the premiums until they didn't need more medical care. The premiums during those few months would NEVER be enough to pay the huge claim.

You're correct. The government does not have the right to make you buy insuarance. BUT THEY WILL have the right if they choose to pass it into law. Obviously, they can make any law they want to. It's called "representative democracy," and therefore it really doesn't matter if anyone disagrees with them or not.

Similarly, if you're in the minority and you don't like what's happening in America, you still have to follow the laws. It's called "democracy." The majority wins. Period.

The reason they want to make everyone buy insurance is because the bill bans insurance companies from rejecting people with prexisting conditions. If people didn't have to have insurance, then they could just buy it right after they needed it, and then drop it after they became well, so they'd only have to pay the premiums for the length of their illness. There wouldn't be enough premiums to pay the claims.

I truly doubt you realize that America was not founded on "the majority". America was founded by unfair taxation and the majority abusing the minority.

The United States of America is not a Democracy...we are a Republic. What is making us a Democracy is our States letting their Rights being whittled away.

Only an idiot would want a Democracy. By doing so you remove yourability to move and enjoy certain rights states offer.

1 Trillion dollars over ten years, really only only six years as it doesnt go into effect ubtil 2013.

What makes these people in congress think that we can afford this reform if we cannot afford what we have now. Near as I can tell there is not much reform, just taxes and mandates.

A vote for this plan is like signing your own death warrant and then pulling the pin on a grenade.......congress has to many crazy people in it's midst.

Democrats, please answer a few of my questions regarding healthcare reform:

1. How do you increase benefits and cut costs? Talking about benefits, for the government plan what will the deductible, coinsurance, and Out Of Pocket maximum be for everybody? What will the cost be for each individual that chooses the government plan? Please provide a list of the healthcare services that will be covered. Seems like this would be the place to start to talk details about the plan.

2. To increase benefits but cut costs do you just not pay doctors, hospitals, drug companies?

3. Why would any honest person be against putting a cap on lawsuits? Is Obama afraid to challenge the lawyers that are stuffing money in Democrats pockets? If Democrats would stand up to the greedy lawyers than maybe they would gain an ounce of respect from me.

4. If there is a government run plan can you sue the government for millions of dollars?

5. If insurance companies are making so much money, why do you not see investors flocking to them to buy their stocks? I'll answer this one, because they are not making record profits!

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/sciencemedicine/story/81A8816381E1DA1A8625765A00823D94?OpenDocument

6. How does the government control deductible leveraging? Both insurance plans and government plans are affected by deductible leveraging. Has the average politician ever heard of deductible leveraging or understand the math behind it?

7. How will the government control general medical inflation that is higher than average inflation for most goods? If there is government run plan does the government determine how much every doctor, nurse, and health care professional makes and what they can charge for each service?

8. Currently the government run plans are being subsidized by the insurance plans. This is one of the major reasons why insurance costs increase by more than general inflation. Most hospital would go out of business if they could only charge the forced rates that government plans set. Therefore, the doctors have to charge those with insurance more so they can stay in business and make a living. What happens to these hospitals once they are all forced to charge the low government contracted discounts?

There are four main parts to medical trend (inflation). These four main factors are general inflation, cost shifting (hospital charging those with insurance more to cover losses on those with Medicare and Medicaid), deductible leveraging, and utilization. What will the government due to control each one of these factors of medical trend (inflation)?

9. The average government workers salary and benefits is more than the average insurance vendor and consulting firms salary and benefits. Will the taxpayers have to pay for higher salaries and benefits to all of these new government employees?

10. Will the government be subsidizing all the education for doctor's, nurse's, pharmacists, etc. since they will not be making as much money with the government programs? Will the government be subsidizing all medical schools?

11. Does the government get to decide which drug companies get money for research? Who subsidizes all of the research that is currently being paid for by the current system that breeds competition and investments in research?

12. Does the government set the price for all care charged by doctor's?

13. If the government sets the price for all medical services and drugs to a point where you can not make any money, what is the motivation to do research?

14. If the evil doctors and nurses have to take a pay cut, what is the motivation to go into this industry?

15. Will there be government subsidized programs to pay for new job training for the 2 million people that currently work in the health insurance industry?

16. If a baby is born premature does the government decide whether or not to save the baby? Is there a certain amount of weeks that a mother must be into their pregnancy before the government will agree to save the baby?

17. Does the government decide how long we should keep our parents and grandparents alive?

18. Why should we invest in health research companies if the government run health plan will not allow them to reap the benefits of their research?

19. Will all of the money from outside the country investors in our health research companies dry up?

20. Why should we trust any government run plan if they can not give us any true details of the actual cost?

21. Medicaid does not pay for events that are considered an accident by doctors. In turn doctors have to make up for that lost revenue by charging those with insurance more. Who picks up this cost if there are not insurance companies?

22. What happens when there is no competition to compete against the Government?

23. Will the government be sending Americans to cheaper countries to get care so they can save money?

24. You compare the cost of Healthcare to that of the Iraq war. We all know that the Iraq war will not go forever. Universal Healthcare is forever. What is the cost for the next 50-100 years?

25. How much will you have to increase taxes to pay for this new government run plan?

26. If you are going to tax the insurance plans, what do you tax in a few years when they are run out of business?

27. The question is not whether or not the bill states that illegal aliens are covered under the plan. The question is does the bill state that illegal aliens are not covered under the plan. If the bill states a healthcare provider can deny services to illegal aliens then they are truly not covered. Currently you can not deny coverage. So, the reality is illegal aliens are still covered and will be paid for by the US taxpayers.

28. Do rural areas get left behind just like they always are because they do not have the power, wealth and masses that the big cities have?

29. Why does the government get to force lower set prices on hospitals and drug manufacturers?

30. Will the next party to gain control just offer more than the last government party to attract votes? How long will this take until the Government controls everything?

31. What happens if this new government plan does not control costs?

32. Will inmates receive the same care as those that are not in jail?

33. Are sex changes covered by the government plan?

34. Is dental coverage included under the government plan?

35. Is vision coverage included under the government plan?

36. Will there be disease management, medical management, wellness programs, smoking cessation programs, etc. under the government plan?

37. Will the government plan push generic drugs?

38. How do we keep fraud and government kick backs to political partners out of the government plan?

39. What is government currently doing to control fraud in Medicare and Medicaid programs?

40. Will abortions be covered under the government plan?

41. Will late term abortions be covered under the government plan?

42. Will less people be motivated to get a job if there is a "free" government plan?

43. America has more illegal aliens (sorry, undocumented workers) living in this country than any other country that has a universal healthcare plan. Do all taxpayers now have to pay for free healthcare for these undocumented non-taxpaying people in this country?

44. What happens when people flock to this country to live here illegally and get the "free" government coverage?

45. Will we turn people away that are not American citizens?

46. Can I just check myself into drug rehab centers and live off the government plan?

47. What level of coverage is provided under the government plan?

48. Will the coverage be so poor like most government run plans that there will be "piggy-back" plans for those that can afford it? This happens in most countries that have government run plans.

49. Will these piggy-back plans get better treatment than those on the government plans because they will pay the doctors more for their services?

50. Will this just cause more class hatred?

You would think that to be true, but I just found out I have to have a fishing licence to fish in my own pond on my own property. Is that communisim or what?

"96% is not 100%, but it's pretty darn good. Congrats to the House for putting lobbying interests aside and moving forward on this needed legislation that will save lives. It's time for gov't to work for Americans."

You do know that the insurance companies largely wrote this bill, right?

"Pelosi might just end up with a monument to her. (And I know that makes the neo-cons skin crawl.)"

If she survives until 2010, she will be out of a job. This is not speculation, but fact. She is behind in her district polling.

"Never forget, when FDR proposed Social Security"

Bankrupt.

"When LBJ pushed for Medicare"

Bankrupt.

"Just like those great leaders, it is time to stand up to their slurs and pass reform NOW!"

FDR knew about the Japanese navy heading for Hawaii several days in advance and knew nothing. The Gulf of Tonkin incident did not happen, and yet LBJ used this false flag to escalate the Vietnam war. FDR's policy extended the Great Depression by a decade or more. Great men? I'm curious what sort of denial drug you are on.

Why are they so bent on passing this?!  Why are they ignoring the citizens of the country who dont want it?! This bill will allow the fed govt to get their hands on MORE and MORE of our hard earned money.  It is a great threat to our freedom.  unbelievable.

i thoroughly agree! i rot in jail before i am forced by these people to buy anything. car insurance is one thing you have a choice. this crap is a whole other ball game. it is a threat to freedom and they can go to hell.

Jimmiesgirl

why? becasue they want power!!!  Every time you grow gov't, you deny freedom!!!!!!!!!  Politicians do not care about your freedom, only their power

GO Public Option! GO Dems!

Go USA - I wish you were right about not being forced to buy insurance. Unfortunately, if this passes, all of us will be forced to do so. And remember the criminal penalties that were in the last bill? Language was amended into that version to protect citizens from the criminal penalties. However, that language is not included in the new version. So...if we don't purchase healthcare, there's a hefty fine to start. And, if we WILLFULLY evade healthcare coverage, it's a felony offense, with a fine of up to $250,000 and up to 5 years in prison. Imagine how many people in this country will end up with felony convictions, simply because they refuse to purchase healthcare coverage! With a felony conviction, you can kiss off your abililty to gain meaningful employment for the rest of your working life. This will create instant poverty for many, many families throughout this country. And I don't know about you, but I can't afford a $250,000 fine...not ever.

And while no one was looking, the Democrat Senate sneakily passed Cap and Trade, too, without anyone knowing about it, and without support from any other party.

If both these bills pass the House, we are in serious trouble, people. With the government takeover of the banking, insurance, and car industries this year, and now, healthcare, which represents 1/6th of the entire economy of the United States, the federal government will have control of over 50% of our economy. At that point, we are no longer a democracy, or a capitalist free society, to make personal decisions about our health, wealth or future. If Cap and Trade passes the House, the government will takeover the largest industry in the United States...the energy industry. I don't have the stats on what percentage that represents, however I do know that the energy industry provides $1 trillion into the national economy. It truly is frightening what is happening. Our country is being taken apart right before our eyes, and We the People don't seem to be able to do anything about it.

yes... lets all stand behind the dems- lets tax ourselves into socialism...where is the common sense here..anywhere??

To those who want to "fix" the system, why do you think it is broken? Without doubt, we have the best healthcare system in the world. Almost all advances in medication and medical devices are accomplished here.

By law, no one can be denied treatment for emergencies. This is a phony crisis. The CBO has said this will only cover 2% of the population, or about 6 million people. Do the math. $1.2 trillion divided by 6 million = $200,000 per person covered. That is $20,000 per person per year.

Still think it is because they "care"?

Those that vote for the bill will be voted out of office.

When FDR proposed Social Security, the Republicans screamed SOCIALISM! When LBJ finally passed Medicare, the Republicans screamed SOCIALISM! Now we have the chance to provide access to health care to the working poor and the middle class. Is it any surprise the Republicans are screaming SOCIALISM?

It is time to stand up to their slurs and pass reform NOW!

"As drafted, the legislation permits illegal immigrants to purchase coverage with their own money inside the insurance exchange that would be created"

Since the "exchange" is one of the biggest reasons that the bill will cost $1.2 Trillion over 10 years, it sounds like a subsidy to illegal immigrants to me.

Because of the "Equal Protection" clause in the Constitution, they will end up getting free medical care at taxpayer expense.

I have a real problem with the government "forcing" people to buy anything and think it may violate the Constitution - and don't give me the "people have to buy car insurance" nonsense, because nobody is forced to drive a car - that's a voluntary activity.

Answer me this...

If virtually ALL of you are so against the Public Option because it is "socialism", then why didn't even ONE of you call for dismantling Medicare?

Why were you so against Medicare in years past, yet scream to the elderly that the Dems are taking away Medicare or ruining it for them... that the Dems are against the elderly?

Then you act like you're "in their corner" and tell them that you won't let the Dems take away their Medicare or Medicaid with this socialized medicine... that they're funding the bill off the backs of the elderly... you people are just so caring for other's plights, aren't you?

The right has become so anti-Dem that they don't even know what they DO stand for any more. They only know what they DON'T want (anything Dem).

But at least be consistent and not so obvious with your pandering!

You don't like being "forced" to buy health care? Then please NEVER go to a doctor or clinic or hospital or use ANY medical services that I pay for... I have rights too!

Maybe we should have approached this like ALL the other 1st world countries did... FIRST they covered everyone, THEN they went after cost savings... and it worked.

And Roy, I fail to see the difference between auto and health insurance requirements for purchase...

Both uninsured types defeat the system, cause harm to others, and deflect their responsibility. Remember, this package comes with help for the poor, so this is nothing more than asking people to be responsible.

Besides, I thought the Republicans were so big on people being responsible and not living off of others? Is this just another inconvenient policy shift for the sake of "saying NO"?

LMarcT: As soon as the government gives me back every dime they have taken from me, I will be happy to fore go Medicare or Social Security.

Your comment about responsibility misses the mark. Conservatives believe in personal responsibility. That is something that cannot be legislated. What you have advocated is more of the nanny state, with the government telling its citizens what to do as if they know best. And the poor already have help in regards to health care; it's called Medicaid.

John-660150 - unfortunately you are dead wrong. You do NOT live in a "representative democracy"....you live in a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC where the "majority" doesn't automatically win ( ie. Tyranny of the Majority ). I think you best brush up on your education and learn about the Founding Father's intentions when creating our government.

http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.html

"And Roy, I fail to see the difference between auto and health insurance requirements for purchase..."

There is a HUGE difference. Actually more than one.

1) Auto and homeowners insurance is required to cover a 3rd party. You can get liability only auto insurance.

2) You are not required to have home owners or auto insurance. Only if you have a mortgage or drive a car.

3) Homeowners and Auto insurance have a scale for risk and are for catastrophic events. You don't use auto insurance to get new tires or oil changes. People with health insurance are using it for EVERYTHING.

If I had the option to just buy catastrophic health insurance and work out a cash deal with my doctor or hospital I'd pay less for health care than you.

You underestimate the power you have as a consumer. I promise you if hospital sent me a bill that included $12 aspirin, I'd tell them where to stick it. But I don't get the bill until after the insurance company has sent the check.

Where are the controls. Why would we spend time dicking with health INSURANCE when we should be addressing health CARE?

Why would you want someone to dictate when, where, how or IF you get health care? You don't let the insurance companies make those decisions on the maintenance of your house and car.

There will always be people who can't or won't pay for their health care. If you want me to gladly chip in for that, you stand a better chance with 50 cent aspirins than $12 aspirins.

LmarcT, What does medicare have to do with this? Medicare, as you know, is something you pay into your whole life and are entitled to once you decide to stop working. The proposed healthcare plan on the table now already cuts medicare (your old age entitlements) to bare bones. This is what your fighting for?? You may help yourself a little now, but it will all come back to you in the end!!. Enjoy Obamacare. lol.

LMarcT, I am not sure what rock you were living under when Republicans fought strongly against the creaton of Medicare, noting that it would be far too expensive. And it is if you are paying any attention at all. It costs HUNDREDS of times more than the Democrats promised it would. It is bankrupt. Don't you get it even a little? The government is the most inefficient at managing of all the choices. Can you not see the problems with Social Security, the Post Office, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, etc. The only organization that runs with efficiency is the military since it is more or less shielded from excessive interference from the political wing.

As for "all the other 1st world countries", they are coming here for health care because it is not available when they need it.

Of course, in your slogan based understanding of the world, you are not aware that cancer mortality is higher for ALL cancer types in England. The cost is bankrupting them and they are rationing care. They are also making decisions based on whether you will live long enough to make treatment worth it. They also make these decisions based on what your expected contribution to society is without regard to past contribution.

Canadians come here constantly for treatment that they would have to wait for (in some cases up to a year) there. Health care in Germany is heavily rationed and treatments are often delayed or denied.

You really have no clue what you are talking about. Go watch CNN some more and just stay in the dark.

I agree. If they are here illegally, then they should be deported. It is not okay to pick and choose which laws to enforce. Of course, that would require the men and women in Congress to have a little backbone. I would rather stand up for what is right and lose, then go along to get along. One is honorable, the other is disgusting.

They can purchase private insurance from YOUR insurance company NOW.

You should boycott YOUR insurance company which sells insurance to ILLEGAL ALIENS.

Don't you just hate those fargin bastages? They take YOUR money and use it to pay for healthcare for ILLEGAL ALIENS.

It's enough to make your head explode ain't it?

First they deny your claim, then use YOUR money to pay for someone who isn't even a citizen.

Outrageous.

That's the concern health insurance company, a privately owned business I might add. For the government to sanction this is to tacitly approve of illegal behavior.

Nice Spin. I thought the focus of your discontent was that Illegals were going to be subsidised by your dollar.

Thanks for the enlightenment, but I expected more from you Go.

So, to paraphrase, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, You are in agreement that Illegals should get healthcare off your dollar, just not if it goes through the government.

Is that a fair assesment?

Because the democrats want them to vote for democrats. By the way ccryder under the bill unborn babies would be given healthcare free of charge. it's called abortion.

Skip

What? We're talking about private insurers selling to Illegals. Are you saying private insurance companies want the Illegals to vote Democrat?

Would one of you guys please make some common sense?

Please?

clarke

I truly hope they vote for this bill. Then every single one of us can hold them accountable(pro or con.)I hope you and all supporters are absolutely sure this will work, because the downside would be devastating to this country and I am not able to give either side of the aisle that kind of support.

Here's what I can't figure out. They are here illegally and do not pay into the tax dollar supported govt. insurance kitty. If we allow them to draw out and purchase this govt. insurance, will it not eventually take away from the neediest of our own citizens...the people that this plan is supposed to be looking out for??? I don't see why the democratic party would be willing to go along with this.

Clarke, is there anything that you cannot spin to suit your agenda..

Private companys-- Are just that private we have no say in what they do. but just to play your game.

200 people are buying insurance from company A. All the same plan, all the same payments go in each mth. While I do not agree that Illegals should be here, I dont much care if they are part of the 200 people that I am a part of. WE ALL pay the same thing, and getting the same benifits.

Now 200 people are in the Gvmnt health care system. Since it is the Gvmnt system all the taxpayers in this country are paying for their health care through taxes. I am not in this plan, even though I have to pay for it with new taxes. I dont want to pay for ANY of the 200 and I DAMN WELL dont want to pay for the illegals in the plan that dont pay any taxes to fund the program.

Now add point 3, that they are illegal and they should be getting NO HELP AT ALL from our Gvmnt, because they are illegal. Now if you want to do a bait and switch on them ill support that till the cows come home. Tell everyone they have to sign up for it in person at some local office, when you sign up you present your Green Card and or other forms of ID, and ship the illegals out.

Clarke: My comment was in direct response to your comment about their being able to purchase insurance from private companies now. My point was that it is not the function of private companies to enforce the laws of the land. That is a function of government. As far as my money is concerned, I don't want to pay for anyone else's insurance, legal or illegal. As far as illegals are concerned, my thoughts are that they should all be deported.

Jeremy

Any logical person would be able to see who's trying to spin who.

You were all screaming obout YOUR dollars subsidising healthcare for illegals. When I pointed out that your own insurance companies whom you gladly endorse do the same thing, you change the game and say "No, we don't care if they get healthcare on our dollar, we just don't want the government to do it"

You are against subsidies for illegals only if your money goes through the government to do it.

You guys are not truthful here.

clarke

Are you saying the insurance companies "subsidies" illegals. If so then you are saying that they get a cheaper rate than others?

"Would someone please explain to me why an illegal immigrant should be able to purchase this health care?"

This is an easy one. The Pelosi bill, as well as its half-sized cousin HR3200, aren't about health care.

Clarke

The understanding of government option is that some people will be taken from to benefit others - illegal aliens in that sense would be benefactors and additional incentive to cross the border. Who cares if they purchase private insurance, at least they pay the WHOLE Bill.

Why do think AARP is so willing to support health care they are about ready to make Billions if this thing passes. Weak up people do you think AARP is going to turn an illegal immigrant away when he has $500 in his hand to buy health care if you think that then god help this country. It's in the bill to allow illegal immigrants to get health care well did Obama & congress lie to you again oops sorry I open my big mouth. Welcome to socialism everybody and you just thinking the health care was just for you, you stupid, stupid people how can the government give health care to illegal immigrants your joking right they can because it's socialism you fools. Go run to AARP and sign up they will have a plan for under 50 as well. Mark this post and tell how wrong I was 6 month from now.

My spouse says we should all have a mass movement over the border to Mexico. Hey, not a bad idea. Nice beaches. Think they'll give us free health care. We can bring our engineers, doctors, nurses, etc. to their country and start a new "America" while their people are here. Like Trading Spaces.

shovelready

No, I'm saying that the whole point of insurance is to subsidise each other.

DB

They pay no more of the whole bill than you do. Insurance is a spread risk, a subsidy by the enrollees to the enrollees. And when they buy private insurance you subsidise them and they subsidise you.

Point is, you guys don't mind that subsidy as long as it doesn't go through the government.

Clarke,

The only thing that bothers me about an illegal going to the grocery and pulling out $100.00 in cash to pay for groceries is that he is an illegal. However, if an illegal goes to the grocery and pulls out his food stamps to pay for his $100.00 of groceries, I then have two problems.

1) He is illegal

2) He is using MY TAX MONEY to buy his groceries.

See the difference?

Sure I see the difference. So if an insurance company uses YOUR money to help pay for an illegals medical bill, that would be the same as you supplying "food stamps" through the insurance company. See the similarity?

I don't think anybodies complaining about illegals paying cash out of their pockets for healthcare, other than the fact that they are illegal.

it's my understanding the government cannot deny medical treatment to anyone, so if that's true, even if the illegals are left out of the heathcare bill it will be challenged in court. The whole thing stinks.

Clarke,

The difference here is if I do not want my money going to subsidize an illegal immigrant's health care I can now choose not to purchase insurance through that company or any company for that fact. With this bill, I have no choice as I'm forced to buy insurance. This bill is taking away my right to chose what I do with my money!

STLMlke

Now THAT is about as valid of argument as you could make. No disagreement there. Now we get down to the brass tacks of taxation period, and to what extent it is moral, or legal.

But one observation:

You will STILL have your choice of where you buy your insurance.

damn clarke you are thick headed..

I buy im insurance from a company... An illegal buys the same coverage... We are both getting the same plan because we both PAY THE SAME THING.. there is no subsidizing going on.

Now if I have to pay 500 a mth, and the illegal pays 250 a mth because the gvmnt pays the other 250 then that is subsidizing.

You are incorrect in that an insurance company is a subsidity.

sub⋅si⋅dize

 /ˈsʌbsɪˌdaɪz/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [suhb-si-dahyz] Show IPA

Use subsidize in a Sentence

See web results for subsidize

See images of subsidize

–verb (used with object), -dized, -diz⋅ing.

1.

to furnish or aid with a subsidy.

2.

to purchase the assistance of by the payment of a subsidy.

3.

to secure the cooperation of by bribery; buy over.

sub⋅si⋅dy

 /ˈsʌbsɪdi/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [suhb-si-dee] Show IPA

Use subsidy in a Sentence

See web results for subsidy

See images of subsidy

–noun, plural -dies.

1.

a direct pecuniary aid furnished by a government to a private industrial undertaking, a charity organization, or the like.

2.

a sum paid, often in accordance with a treaty, by one government to another to secure some service in return.

3.

a grant or contribution of money.

4.

money formerly granted by the English Parliament to the crown for special needs.
Both of these definitions do NOT fit with what you are trying to make it into.
Whos spinning now?

I suppose the majority would rule if we actually lived in a democracy. Thankfully we live in a republic and are protected by our Constitution from the tyranny of the majority. In theory anyway.

Jeremy

Do you believe your insurance premiums just go for your bills? And if you have anything major going on, do you really believe you have PAID for the entire bill? I know you are smarter than that. If that were true, why would you have health insurance in the first place?

You wouln't, you would just have a savings account and pay all in cash. Why don't you? Because the premiums you pay are used to subsidise those who's health problems cost alot more than their premiums cover.

Insurance is a spred risk/subsidy plan. What happens to your premiums if you never need medical attention Jeremy? In this scenario, you ONLY subsidise the care of others with no benefit to yourself.

Do you see what I am saying?

I see that you are trying tp skew it to suit your agenda is what you are saying and totally discounting what others are telling you. Much like you do with any health care topic. You are ignoring the simple examples people are telling you to fit your liberal agenda.

Insurance is a Risk pool I will give you that. It is not a subsidy plan if it was a subsidy plan then the mthly bill that is charge to a family would be paid in part by a 3rd party and it is not it is 100 percent paid for by you in consumer.

I'll tell you why the Liberals always want to include the illegal imigrants in the numbers >VOTES< they could give a rats a** about anything but votes! They sure don't in congress" when it comes to what the people really want! So lets give them the votes in 2010. >RIGHT OUT OF OFFICE< eveyone of them that vote for this healthcare bill!!!

Don't get yourselves too worked up by Clarke, folks, he's a hopeless Soros/Huffington/Medea Benjamin/Pelosi/Reid/Obammy/DNC puppet. They pull the strings and he dances. His words change occasionally but the tune remains the same.

Porkbevr

I have never seen you post anything but an insult, which is what you guys do when you have nothing better to say or can't refute a point. You add nothing to any debate, you are a troll.

Jeremy

Are you then denying that your premiums help pay for the healthcare of others? That is a subsidy Jeremy. If you don't think it is, try getting your premiums back if you don't use healthcare.

I just gave you an example that you ignored to suit your agenda.

I'll restate it. See if you can answer it without the rhetoric.

What happens to the premiums you pay in when you don't use healthcare? What does the insurance company do with that money, aside from the profit part?

The insurance company uses the money collected from the healthy to pay for the medical care of the sick. Do you not understand this? Are you trying to say it doesn't work that way? Insurance uses the money of the healthy to subsidise the care of the sick.

Sorry if you don't get it. What can I say? How many people disagree with this doesn't affect the fact that it is true Jeremy.

Clarke, when I see your posts and the lack of value they contain, insults flow freely. You are the worst type of liberal, the kind who comes pre-programmed and can't listen to reason. You either only read posts of mine in response to you or you are lying once again. I don't have problems with many 'viners or their posts, there are a select 4 or 5 who are without value. Sadly, your comments are usually without merit. Hugo Chavez might appreciate your style more than me. Try sending him a few blogs.

clarke ong"You will STILL have your choice of where you buy your insurance."

What if you choose "no insurance" I should have the right to purchase or not to purchase health insurance and not get fined for it. That would be like the government saying everbody has to drink milk like it or not and if you choose not to drink milk you will still have to pay for it.

my original question was "Would someone please explain to me why an illegal immigrant should be able to purchase this (U.H.C.)health care?"

Porkbevr

Why don't you just put me on ignore. As for the no value part, there are many, many posters who are differing in opinion with me who seem to have the ability and MANNERS to respond without insults.

You can't, and that speaks louder than any of your twisted logic.

You are a troll.

I don't see alot of people voting for your comments. Even on this Right Dominated blog.

I really don't like putting people on ignore, even you. In the end, these posts are only entertainment, it's not as if anyone in D.C. reads this stuff anyway.

I do not like your politics, Clarke Ong, and I may get rude at times. But, I will always defend your right to post them. That's what makes this country great.

Now, back to business..... Right Dominated?? This country is center-right dominated - a fact you libbies forget all too quickly.

ok let me try to dumb it down a little bit more..

I am buying a service from the Insurance company for XXX ammount a mth. In return for my payment, if I need it they will pay for my medical care minus my deductable.

THAT is what you are buying when you buy insurance.

There is no subsity involved because I pay the entire mthly payment myself. there is not a 3rd party paying part of it THAT would be a subsity. ( see the definitions above )

I enter a contract with the company to provide health benifits to me and my family.

As for your return what I didnt use comment..

Would you go buy a gallon of milk from the store, drink half of it and return it back to the store because you didnt want it anymore?

Its the same thing here.

Jeremy what you're not seeing is that in many, many cases the amount of premium you have paid in doesn't begin to cover the actual costs of care. This is when you use the premiums of others to SUBSIDISE the shortfall.

You said it yourself Jeremy, "in return for my payment THEY will pay the bill."

The healthy insured pay for (subsidise) the chronically sick insured.

Yes, you pay the whole premium yourself, but the premium(s) you pay in many cases don't BEGIN to cover the actual costs of the care. A five day stay at any hospital will more than eat up your entire premium for that year, so any other costs incurred are paid by others (subsidised).

ALL insurance is socialised, subsidised medicine. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it's true.

As for the ''return what you didn't use part" I said if you used NONE of it. Like if you bought a packaged good which you couldn't use, you would return it for your money back. Not with insurance though because they need that money to pay for the bills of others. Because you are SUBSIDISING others when you buy insurance.

"Risk Pool" has no meaning at all outside of subsidies.

Porkbevr

I was talking about this particular thread, in which I am hopelessly outnumbered. I'm a scrapper though, and you could have a lot worse than me watching your back, politics aside.

I apologise for calling you a troll.

clarke,

Bravo - I don't usually leave comments, but I felt I had to commend you on your ability to try and have a calm and rational discussion with the other posters here. I have heard so many holier-than-thou posters on here who promote hate, and couldn't possibly believe there is a world out there past their community and their belief system.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled hate mongering posters!

I am a rabid anti-illegal advocate, but I have to question the people who want to cut the clause from this bill that would enable the illegals that are already in this country to participate in a health plan IF THEY USE THEIR OWN MONEY!! If they are not able to participate WITH THE USE OF THIER OWN MONEY, then they will simply continue to overcrowd the already overcrowded emergency rooms where, by law, they cannot be denied medical care. Shooting ourselves in the foot by not making E-Verify a part of this insane bill is one thing, but do we have to blow the whole leg off? The ideal situation, in my humble opionion, is to aim money at repairing our current "national health" programe (Medicaid), while making use of E-Verify to lock all illegals out of all public assistance programs & employment. Fine the everloving sh.. out of employers who don't adhere to the rules, & reverse the 1982 Plyer vs. Doe decision to supply free K-12 education to the illegal children of illegal aliens. We have GOT to dry up the well head that draws illegals to our country. Cut off the head of the snake, & the body dies!

Clarke, you're wasting your breath trying to fight a battle of wits with the UNARMED. Jeremy is an idiot who has absolutely NO comprehension about how insurance works and porkbrain is another rightwing ignoramous. Let them think what they want. YOU know and I know they haven't a clue or a brain cell between them.

FYI Jeremy....Clarke isn't "skewing" anything. He's dead on right. All the "skewing" is being done on your end because you are too thick-headed and ignorant to understand how the insurance system works and you just don't WANT to admit you're completely WRONG and incapable of logic and reasoning.

clarke ong You should boycott YOUR insurance company which sells insurance to ILLEGAL ALIENS.

That's what I'm trying to do "boycott" the government which will sell/give government insurance to ILLEGAL ALIENS. Why should they be entitled to it?

As far as the milk "I said That would be like the government saying everybody has to drink milk like it or not and if you choose not to drink milk you will still have to pay for it." I said nothing about returning a half full carton. Obama smokes what if he passed a bill making everybody smoke cigarettes like it or not. Do it or you will be fined at IRS time? Not my choice.

I am a responsible person that pays my own bills (struggles at times but I manage.)

In parting I do not come on the vine in hope of getting a lot of votes on my post. I come on the vine to read what others opinions are and post mine. I try not to name call or get pissed of at others because I don't agree with their opinion. We are all individuals with different thought processes and sometimes on this vine I can actually read a post and and see the other side of the coin. It's called an open mind.

It amazes me that we want to spend so much time, effort, and tax dollars on health INSURANCE, when we should be focusing on health CARE. They are not the same. One does not equal the other.

Why do we use insurance to pay for all of our doctor and hospital visits?

Families pay a fortune for health insurance, but most get relatively little health care. Colds, shots, checkup. They buy this product, though for the catastrophe, the same reason they buy auto and homeowners insurance.

The problem is 'health insurance' is a mutant creature that has no resemblance to insurance. If we used it as we use homeowners and auto insurance it would be affordable. Use it for the catastrophic events that statistically won't happen to you or most people.

Turn the rest into transactions between you and your doctor or hospital, removing untold layers of cost and giving you some measure of control. I believe that if doctors and hospitals were able to compete in a free market, 'basic' (the vast majority of healthcare events) services such as those that most general practioners deal with almost exclusively would cost significantly less.

I promise you this, if a hospital sent me a bill that included $12 aspirin and $150 paper booties, I'd tell them where they can stick it. I'd tell them that they can take 50 cents for that aspirin and like it or I'll go to St Gertrude's across town that only charges $5 for an aspirin, or Luke's who has a coupon for 'buy 2 aspirins, get one free.'

As it stands, I don't see the bill until my insurance company already sent the check.

You know if you end up needing knee surgery, it's going to cost you something. But if you are in the position to shop, you can have some control over it. And yes, you might have to make payments on it or tap some savings. You'd have to do it if your transmission blew or you need new gutters. Yeah, it sucks. Welcome to life.

Capitalism. Be a consumer. Shop, bargain, buy what you need and can afford and if needed, vote with your feet. Take control of your health, your health care, your health care costs, and your health care dollars.

Don't give it to someone else who has demonstrated that they will still pay $12 for that aspirin.

There will always be people who can't/won't pay for their own healthcare. If you want me to cheerfully open my wallet to help, you stand a much better chance with $1 paper booties than $150 paper booties.

SAY IT WITH ME!

GET THE PEOPLE HEALTH CARE (this bill does not do that)

Save the insurance for the purpose for which it is designed.

It won't be painless to turn the ship around, but wouldn't it be great to go health insurance shopping no different than home owners or auto?

What a clear and informative statement on what is wrong with our system with special focus on PA, my home state. This kind of thing we have come to expect from PA government is a primary reason we no longer live there. After our move, our insurances and property taxes went down by 40%. While no area is free from the systemic corruption of power, we are at lest we get to keep more of our resources. . .for now.

And the industry is regulated by the states. OK so fix what's broken.

Larry

UPMC is a teaching hospital and medical research institute and NOT FOR PROFIT!

If there is a problem with the system it is called waste, defensive medicine or aggressive expansion!

Intended to type "insurance, teaching hospital, and medical research institute".

larry ... is the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center a private or public funded institution?

another shining example of the phrase "you can't fix stupid".........

larry grummet'

Is Healthcare reform the most pressing issue with this country at this time with the unemployment now up to 10.2%???

I'm not sure who you're talking to or about, but I like your style.

You forgot Wall Street. Doesn't exactly fit your mold for screwed up.

Good morning Clarke,

Yes it does, I did forget and it is highly regulated. Clarke, I think I came up with the reason health care is so screwed up.

I have not investigated it, but I am pretty sure health insurance administration fees are regulated. The fees can only be a certain %. Think about that, if the way you make money is on your percentage of the premium, how do you make more money? Make sure the rates are high, so your fees are high. It is the only reason I can think of why any industry would overpay for everything.

You don't think that deregulation was the root of the financial collapse?

I think the OVERWHELMING majority of economists would disagree, but that's just my opinion.

Government is the most screwed-up group of all.

Wall Street is it's own animal, it makes no sense to me. You may be correct, but I think my reasoning on the issue at hand is on target.

Well that's just absurd. Banking, for example was heavily DEREGULATED under Bush, and look what happened. Then they got huge bailouts of your tax dollars. That's what happens when you DEregulate--greed takes over, and the companies rip everyone off, then eventually the companies collapse, and WE have to pay for it.

Not all regulation is bad, and anyone who thinks it is is plain stupid. Do you want your prescription drugs unregulated? Your food? Your water? Your highways? Think about it. Laws themselves ARE regulation, and without laws we have chaos, which is apparently what you support. I guess you're just a radical anarchist or something.

Yes Clarke, I do think that deregulation is the root.

So if the house is on fire and you left the coffee pot on, what do you do first?????

The way I see it, there is such a thing as too much regulation, and such a thing as too little regulation. The fact that there is regulation isn't the point. It must be applied on a case by case scenario.

Clarke, please name one other industry that overpays for everything by as much as 4 times. I can't. It makes no sense.

I think the solution is that simple. What is the reason they overpay? I think it is because their profits depend on their service fees and their service fees can only be a certain percentage. Figure out what the fees should be, set a flat rate that adjust with CPI and watch cost tumble.

I define regulation as putting an industry in bed with politicians, therefore adding lobbyists and more corruption to the industry,

I would define deregulation as a full on orgy between government and industry, with the industry being the johns and the goverment being the whores.

And by the way, thank you, I appreciate it.

Clarke - byt the government lowering income requirements, fees, downpayment, job requirements, citizenship for a mortgage with the threat of denying anyone denying a mortgage to anyone meeting with these lowered requirements would be prosecuted for discrimination is being a thug not de-regulation.

DB

Thats not what the law against redlining is about at all, that's just hogwash. That law is about not being able to deny a loan to anyone who has the same buying power and creditworthiness as you just because they live on a particular side of the tracks.

You forgot the biggest and most screwed up of all" that industry is called The Federal Government! These days you can almost classify them a Racket!

The folks in charge of Amtrak will run it.

And soon the American People (BROKE) because of these AZZHOLES.

They couldn't manage a neighborhood paper route.

right of the rails as soon as it pulls out of the station LOL

Our country - broke.

I'm waiting for Clarke Ong and his DNC talking points post to tell us where we (being the unenlightened masses) are wrong for doubting David Axelrod - er... Barry Obammy.

Thank God that we still have some true Americans in our country. Not everyone is a member of the amoral, looney left

The American Peoples New Motto:

Ram it down our throat in 2009 and we'll stick it up your AZZ in 2010

Or before as was the case in Virginia and New Jersey.

Apparently you guys want to live in the only 1st world nation with no national healthcare plan. That's really something to be proud of. France, Germany, England, and others are all kicking your ass, and you just love it. You want to live in a nation of sick, poor people. You're fine with that. You like it.

I don't get it. HR3200 was 1000 pages. The town halls were a smackdown, based on the content of those 1000 pages.

So Pelosi's answer is to "double" the size of the bill with twice the garbage, as if we'd like it better than HR3200?

Pelosi is mocking you and I.

2010!

Hey John - the poor people, legal and illegal are being imported by our very own government. It's time to stop immigration for a while and let the economy sort itself out. We don't need any more mouths to feed. They let them in for the votes and to suppress wages, it effects all of us. It's really nothing more than slavery but our government would never call it that, because that ended, right? And no, I don't like it, but not for the reasons you suggest.

John,

If you whant to live in a country where the government takes 1/2 your money go live in Europe. The rest of us work too hard to give away our money that we worked for because you and your friends want to sit a home all day and collect the checks we send you.

John, it's the same country now as it was when it took the Axis powers on and won. We have the same type of government, although quite a bit more, the same political system, more or less the same values.

This country is what made me me, you you, and even Clarke Ong, ...... well, Clarke. Why, all of a sudden is it an absolute priority to tear down the system that has served us the past hundred or so years and replace it with a system that will bankrupt this nation and only insure another 5% of the populace?

Votes.

Socialism.

p.s. - the european model you use as an example is failing in most of the countries it is used in, and the citizens pay about 70% or more of their wages in taxes. How wonderful.

born again 2010, mid terms

Fear not. VA's governor was elected by a margin not seen since 1961.

Keep the faith, the working class are stronger and smarter than the thugs in D.C.... Come on 2010!!!

Malt: Remember that the first revolution began in Va and NJ and the second one began there too.

We have to get rid of both partys , they are all progressives, we need all conservative constitutionalists. Then we can repeal what they have messed up. We all have to stand up we out number the loonies and the majority is supposed to rule, for once we have to make that so.

"they are all progressives, we need all conservative constitutionalists."

Why ? So we can end up even FURTHER back in the Stone Age ?? We are already the laughing stock of the industrialized world because we can't manage to be progressive ENOUGH because we have a population of SHEEPLE that don't want to have to deal with being out of their "comfort zone" of utter ignorance and complacency. You'd all sit here and wallow in the mire until the end of time if it were up to you. Thank god it ISN'T. It'll take us DECADES as it is to "catch up" with the rest of the world ( ie...Europe, Canada, Australia and other idustrialized nations ) on technology, healthcare, human rights, job equality, etc. because we have a bunch of ultra-conservative Neanderthal s holding us back.

WHere if illegals go home, most have government insurance!

NO COST TO THEM!

And your bil doesn't take 72 hours to read. Very Good!!!!!!!!

I think I read somewhere this bill does away with CHIPS. How does this help families?

You don't like aliens coming across that texas border, is that right skippy!

Then you had better talk to your gop leaders about that. George Bush did everything but give them a piggy back ride into the usa so they can work cheap for the gop scum business ventures. You just don't get it both ways stupid, no aliens, no cheap labor. You might even have to get your lardass out there and mow your own lawn....

If we are not to discriminate in this country then why do we have latino caucus, black caucus, etc. in Washington. Why are we not all of one caucus? I'm confused.

beyondintelligence....that's NOT what the gov't said. They said people with pre-existing conditions that HAD previous insurance will have to wait 6 months. People that haven't had any insurance coverage are eligible IMMEDIATELY.

Under the health care bills in Congress, you could apply for coverage through a new high-risk pool that President Barack Obama promises would immediately start serving patients with pre-existing medical problems. Wait a second. Read the fine print. You may have to be uninsured for six months to qualify.

You people really need to learn how to read AND comprehend.

gemini - I can read, and I comprehend that this bill and everything Obammy, Pelosi and Reid, the Liberal Three Stooges stands for is everything that I stand against. I will work my arse off to defeat anyone that votes for this crap.

Porkbevr... then all I can say is that at some point I hope you or a family member lose your insurance and have a catastrophic illness and can't get treatment. Even better...that your health insurance company drops you after an illness and you can't get coverage anywhere else.

You people are absolutely ignorant and selfish. Remember.. what comes around goes around. All you self-righteous wingnuts will reap what you sow in the end and it won't be pretty.

Oh.. and don't forget to opt out of Social Security/Medicare when you're 62/65. You wouldn't want to be taking advantage of using any "socialist" government run programs now. Try fending for yourself smartass.

Right on Gemini !!

Letting the US Conference of Catholic Bishops have ANY say / influence in our government is CRIMINAL and unconstitutional. WHY is a religious group having any say in how MY healthcare is run ?

Nevermind the damned illegal aliens. YOu're so worried about them getting healthcare.... do you really think they'll even be able to AFFORD to purchase healthcare ? There will be no more "fee for service" or "emergency" care with insurance being mandated. Once they can't get any "free" care and they can't afford to purchase a policy because they cannot qualify for gov't subsidies they just might crawl back to where they came from.

Letting the US Conference of Catholic Bishops have ANY say / influence in our government is CRIMINAL and unconstitutional. WHY is a religious group having any say in how MY healthcare is run ?

Nevermind the damned illegal aliens. YOu're so worried about them getting healthcare.... do you really think they'll even be able to AFFORD to purchase healthcare ? There will be no more "fee for service" or "emergency" care with insurance being mandated. Once they can't get any "free" care and they can't afford to purchase a policy because they cannot qualify for gov't subsidies they just might crawl back to where they came from.

You have tio understand that Obam's news group could possibly present the truth. It would harm the messiah.

No kidding, Lee. But, it wouldn't take 20,000 liberals to show up to get Obama's media propaganda machine in a frenzy. It would only take about a couple of dozen people showing up to show support for his health care program or gay marriage or anything the left supports. Then you'd read "Dozens march in support of Obama's health care...." as the lead story.

Vote out Obama's Super Majority in the 2010 Congressional elections before we don't even have a voice anymore!

Lee ~ First: Your 20,000 number is laughable. Second: The lobbyists brought 75% of them in on their bus caravans. Third: The "fringe" media were too busy covering real news like oh, I don't know, a serious rampage shooting at Fort Hood. Fourth: When your gifted leaders like Boehner learn the difference between the Constitution and The Declaration of Independence, maybe we'll take all of you a little more seriously. What an idiot that man is - but he sure looks good with his orange tan. He and Michelle Bachmann deserve each other!

Grandma - go change your Depends. They stink as bad as your politics.

Yes Arizona , it takes a real Constitutional scholar,(maybe even a lawyer!), to know that there are 57 states as someone in the upper echelons of the Democratic party recently stated, I forget who,anyway, as far as knowing the Constitution, perhaps you can show me in that honored document of documents, that millions of men and women have fought and died to defend,and many millions more, still alive today , have sworn a sacred oath to protect and defend against all enemies foreign and domestic, the Article that allows those in control of the national government to take the power of the states to regulate insurance away and FORCE citizens to buy a commercial product under the penalties of fines and imprisonment if they do not comply,that does seem confiscatory and is in direct violation of Article Ten,(The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people), and wasn't that whole taxation without representation thing one of the reasons that led to the Declaration of Independence and a revolution?, just asking.

Thank God for those Republicans and brave Democrats who will continue to block this socilaized bill.

Jeanne ~ The thing with the Republicans is that they won't want healthcare reform until they are put in one of those positions. They don't understand that $1100 of their premiums a year go towards covering the uninsured (including undocumented workers). They don't understand that their congressmen are the recipients of the best health insurance available - paid for by their tax dollars - but that those same congressmen won't let them have access to that plan. They don't understand that the Republican answer to healthcare reform reduces the deficit by much less than the Democratic plan and leaves the same number of people uninsured in ten years than are uninsured now. In other words...they just don't understand.

Skip52, I think you may have missed my point. Medicare is run by the government now. No, it's not perfect, but overall it works pretty well. It has surfaced during the health care debate that many seniors don't know that Medicare is a government program. So while you rail about socialism, you should know that the same things were said about social security and Medicare when they were being proposed. And, yet, somehow we're still a democracy.

jeanne - rebublcans don't have to block anything - the dems have the votes. They are rightfully scared that they will be shown the door their next election cycle.

That's laughable... I wouldn't vote for a reTHUGlican EVER EVER EVER. I'll always choose between the lesser of two evils ( the Democrat ) unless there is a viable 3rd Party candidate.

GOP = PURE EVIL

DNC = LESSER EVIL

3rd Party = the only way out of hell

The only white trash is named Pelosi, Reid, Schumer and the other Democratic liberlas in DC. Sounds like you may be a part of that group also.

The last tea party held in my city was attended by majority Democrats because we are a highly democratic region. Many were doctors, lawyers, and other professional business persons. Hardly a group you'd describe as "white trash". The tea party protests are Americans standing up to a socialist takeover of our government - doesn't matter which party you belong. Name-calling is just a tool of the libs, who are watching their messiah sink in quicksand.

Look at the photos. They are all middle aged over-weight white people who evidently don't have jobs. The last tea party held in my city was attended by majority nut cases who got their year's worth of exercise walking the mile march. The only thing that would have gotten them more riled up would be if congress decided to raises taxes on Ho Hos. Name calling a tool of the libs? LOL. Here I thought you listened to Beck, Hannity, cluster fox and limbaugh.

thomas - many are seniors (and you will be too someday, if the gov doesn't cut you off your meds) that are retired and have paid their whole lives into a system that they don't want to see destroyed now. People that have paid their taxes and done their part in society. I guess you see a problem that?

Thomas doesn't see much past Obammy's zipper.

What is wrong with you? These people are breaking the law. Oh, I forgot that makes them Democrats.

i know, but we need to deport some of these "un-documented" illegals. what can we do ?

OK Keck so you are saying because they will be documented they will be eligible. And because they are not Caucasian of course they will get preferential treatment. So the people who are trying to work and actually pay for this BS will have to wait behind someone who is in our country illegally and contributing nothing to the cost. Do you know how ridiculous that is. I am sick of all of these politically correct liberal views. If you want to take advantage of the American dream be an American and don't expect any better treat than the next American no matter what color or religion or race or whatever. Oh and by the way christian white people can be treated fairly also.

no thats not what i'm saying. first identify the problem, then deal with it.

i am against govt run healthcare

i am against undocumented, illegals....we should know who is in our counrty, some of these illegals have been deported once allready, and got back into our counrty, we need to fix that.

no healthcare for illegals.

Ok I agree with you 100%. No govt run health care for anyone. Immigration laws need be tightened and enforced. No one should be able to run across the border when they are pregnant and go to a hospital and have Americans pay for this person to have a baby and then let this baby have dual citizenship that is BS. If neither of your parents are American Citizens there should be no way a baby born to illegals should automatically become a US citizen.

I got an email last week that said that the term "illegal alien" is no longer to be used under any circumstances.

Henceforth they are to be referred to as "undocumented Democrats".

Keck - We need to put a bounty on them. $50 alive, $200 dead.

The reason that the legislation would not kick in for 4 years is so that they can LIE about the actual costs of this program.

The new taxes kick in immediately - and they are using TEN YEARS OF TAXES to pay for only SIX YEARS of coverage. At the end of the first ten years, we will have a government entitlement firmly in place, with all the looters lined up at the trough, and no possible way in Hell to pay for this.

to Jeanne 1033995 - there is NOTHING in this entire Democratic plan that actually addresses the COST of healthcare. Their entire program is simply about moving the costs around - sucking in hundreds of billions of TAX DOLLARS in the process, and creating a whole new dependency class - beyond those already mired in multi-generational dependency on welfare, etc.

If you want to get more people able to cover their own insurance - then look no further than the 235 page Republican alternative. It DIRECTLY ATTACKS COSTS that have been driving up healthcare TREATMENT rates - by limiting the huge expense of defending and insuring against malpractice cases that many lawyers and clients use like it's a "lottery". It allows COMPETITION across state lines, so that the most efficient providers of health insurance can tackle much larger customer bases, instead of our current system that greatly limits competition.

There's another problem with this that the MSM has overlooked.

The government will collect taxes for this starting now, but in year 5 they will start to spend the money...only to find out that (in true government fashion) they already spent it on something else. So we get to start the program on 'day one' already deep in the hole.

The only Terrorrist in the US today are sick people like you, Cheney and Bush - always spreading lies all over the internet.

I've never seen a single post by President Bush or Vice President Cheney on the interenet.