| Type | Comments Since You Last CheckedArticle | Source | Last Checked |  |
 |
President Barack Obama is traveling to Capitol Hill to try to close the sale on his signature health care overhaul, facing a make-or-break vote in the House certain to be seen as a test of his presidency.
It is time to get past the Republican slurs and lies and provide affordable health care NOW!
#1 - Sat Nov 7, 2009 7:28 AM ESTBecause he wants to make sure the wounded there will be totally taken care of in the hospital
Maybe people need to realize this is not affordable healthcare at all. How many more jobs can we afford to lose? This bill would tax businesses that can't afford to pay for health care for their employees now up in the range of 135B and put a lot of them out of business totally. That means more job losses! If there's no business then they can't make them pay for employees' healthcare can they?
They claimed this vote would be delayed so that the protesters would not have time to get there again. They aren't interested in what the taxpayers have to say and they aren't willing to use the cutdown coverage that they expect others to be satisfied with. They will take people's existing coverage away from them and Pelousi has even said that "High Risk Pools" will take 6 mos or more to get any coverage at all.........those are cancer patients, the elderly, special needs children, and the list goes on.......it's been called pre-existing conditions in the past. 23% tax on your income and just where are you going to get the money to pay your bills and they are not talking people who make over $100,000. This bill will be paid 87% by the families making under $100,000
Scott, what those problems point towards is regulation, tort reforms, and Big Pharma reining in... those all affect EXACTLY what you're talking about, and can be done more readily, cheaply, and efficiently than mistakenly trusting the government to do what is right. Even if this thing is pushed through, it addresses none of the above issues; hence, no change.
Most that support this don't realize just how much they'd have to trust those that have PROVEN they cannot be trusted, career politicians, and don't seem to see that by utilizing the afore mentioned, AND bringing jobs back home, that those problems would be fixed. Efficiently, realistically, and soundly.
Where does the congress get the power to pass this piece legislation? Article I, Section 8 of the constitution provides specific powers to congress for what they can do. If it is not listed there, they cannot do it! And yet, the members in support of this legislation think that you don't care about the constitution or that you are too distracted by your life to know.
I had the privilege to be in Washington DC on Thursday with thousands of other patriots from Alaska to Florida. I made appointments and visited my Representatives and senators. I visited many Conservative Democrats and even some members who are in support of this bill. I learned about the inner workings of politics in Washington.
I asked each member I spoke with where does the constitution grant them the authority to pass this legislation. The answers I received were astonishing. Several Democratic members misquoted the welfare clause, claiming that the constitution provides them power to "protect the health, general welfare of the country". When I pointed this out, the members often referred to the general welfare clause, which they were trying to quote but couldn't. In this case, my question is, if you have the power to force citizens to purchase insurance (or any product), essentially exhort control of my behavior and my personal health, what is the limitation to the welfare clause? Where does Congress NOT have the authority? It was evident that members in control of this congress do not care about the limitations of their power and they think YOU don't care either.
Your rights and liberty are being taken away and you are willing giving them away if you are silent or in support of this bill! There are plenty of non-invasive ways to fix the health insurance system and drive down costs without trampling on the constitution. Yet, the leadership is pursuing with all possible force this one course of action and is unwilling to debate or consider other means. Shame!
Now is the hour to take a stand for Liberty! Will you stand idly by now when your country needs you most? Are you prepared to one day tell your grand children, whose money we are spending to fund our comforts, about the America that once was, land of the free? Call you congressman today and give your support against this bill which the Washington Post calls the worst bill in generations. If you will not fight for liberty, who will?
Dennis- please don't forget about the free home phones, cell phones and scooter chairs. LEECHES every where you look.
Wake up America; The mistake in your comments is, the Congress and Senate don't give a damn about the Constitution, they do not want anything that restricts their power and law making ability; we have been asleep at the helm, and our ship of state is about to hit a iceberg.
President Barack Obama is traveling to Capitol Hill to try to close the sale on his signature health care overhaul
Way too funny. This man never had a plan, offered a plan, or is willing to stop his 'I Love Me The Rockstar Tour' long enough to make a plan.
He's been winging it since day one...
When people realize that this congress is not giving them health care,(the ultimate false offer of security),but is actually taking their freedoms, they will rally. Fellow citizens, you need to stop and think what you are surrendering: Your freedom, from cradle to the grave will be controlled by the government, they will decide who and how many are born and how and when you die, during your life, through your health records the government will know everything about you, where you live,where you have lived, where you want to live, what you have done,what substances you ingest,what physical and mental problems you have, your sexual history,(if you think it is suspicious now how damaging leaks from FBI files are able to be made against the political opposition, wait until they have access to EVERYTHING about EVERYONE),What you do in your life will be controlled by this bill, want to own a gun, smoke, drink,eat junk food, drive fast cars, skydive?, those are risky health behaviors and you will have to pay more in insurance premiums to do them, probably to the point where it will be prohibitive to most,and don't think you will be able to just refuse to pay,if they can take your money from your paycheck for social security,what's to stop them from taking your required health care payments before you even see them?, and if they want to raise the rates from 12% to 25%,40%,50%,70%,of your pay, or more, how will you be able to stop them? their hand is already in your pocket and if you don't pay , you will be fined or imprisoned for not allowing the government to confiscate whatever the amount of your earnings they decide.This unconstitutional and illegal bill is a clear violation of Article 10 of the Constitution,(The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution nor prohibited by it to the states , are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.)It is a right of the states to regulate insurance within their borders, and it is the right of the people to purchase or not purchase that insurance, but it is much more than insurance that is being decided here it is a power grab unprecedented in United States history and could sound a death knell for our freedoms and the Constitution if it is allowed stand, but, there are literally millions of men and women who have sworn a sacred oath to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic, and there is no expiration date on that pledge.When they along with many more millions of fellow citizens, Democrats,Republicans ,Independents, who all love their country just as much , stand and say NO!YOU CAN NOT TAKE MY RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS!The usurpers in this congress will get the message, sooner,.... or later.
After planning this for 100 years -
Having a massive majority -
The democrats are still having to handout indian burns on the undecided democrats - to cajole the votes - ???
One would think perhaps that this is indicative of a plan that is out of step and will not provide US with any positive results?
PLEASE PASS THIS BILL AND PUT THE NAIL IN THE COFFIN OF THE ECONOMY... AND THE NAIL IN THE COFFIN OF MOST OF THOSE WHO VOTED FOR IT!
We need tents for all those people who are losing jobs... houses... and everything. Maybe a computer hotline called www.demotents.com!
Thanks for hearing us.
This bill is NOT about our health. obama and his thugs couldnt care less about our health care. The bill is about power , money, and control. All obama and his thugs talk about or pay attention to, is healthcare. Dont they have other things to worry about, like jobs, the economy, Afganistan and etc.?!! Controlling healthcare , is like the crown jewel for socialism. The bill, if passed, will give the fedgovt all kinds of control over us. Very frightening.
Something tells me a lot of these comments and collapsers may be paid posers. I would love to hear from a uninsured tea-bagger. Anyone? Probably not.
Vote YES YES YES. Buy more liberal votes. Get another step closer to destroying our Republic.
Be a proud (ignorant) O supporter.
The present system would work if the damn legislators would quit mandating free care for everyone.
Scott, what those problems point towards is regulation, tort reforms, and Big Pharma reining in... those all affect EXACTLY what you're talking about, and can be done more readily, cheaply, and efficiently than mistakenly trusting the government to do what is right.
If you actually mean what I think you're trying to say this has got to be one of the stupidist comments I've ever read. Yes we need regulation, tort reform and the reigning in of big pharma but who are you proposing to do it if not the government?
It is time for you who do not pay for health insurance to be required to pay, and when you do not, throw you in jail.
The sad thing is this: I haven't had health insurance since I was in the Army. I can't afford the insurance that my job offers to its employees, period. I make $1200 a month after taxes, and am barely able to keep myself afloat. How could I do that with $300 going towards insurance? I cannot fathom how the people who think otherwise can call themselves human. This isn't just about you. What about those of us that simply cannot afford to pay $300 or more a month for a steady insurance plan??? Why is it that you people are so eager to bring down everyone who doesn't explicitly agree with you? Again, I believe it's because you stopped being human.
So many opinions, so little info...
here is some C-SPAN congressional testamony for those willing to be confusd by the truth
obama was asked if he and all other politicians would go on his health care plan and scrape the plan they now have. He refused to answer this question. Kinda tells you how good his health plan isn't doesn't it.
Can't wait to see this pass, and then hear the whiners next year when nothing changes. Cause y'all know that most of this crap bill does nothing but take more money for the first 5 years, right?
Yep its all just right wing delaying whats gonna happen anyway. We have to start somewhere and since the right had no viable ideas we can go with whatever comes out of the conference when the Senate acts. Only people who are against reform are right wingers rich folks and the corpaorate ceo's who think this may cost them a little while raking in million dollar bonus's. They want to keep wages stagnant as they have been for years while their incomes have went from 100 times what the daily worker makes to over 400 times.
Anyone who makes over $250,000 should stop working for 3 years until the next election, see how they pay for these welfare bumb programs.
It would appear that the Democrats are counting their chickens before their eggs have hatched. They are counting on heavily taxing people who make over $500,000 per year. Have they stopped to consider that at least some of these people will be retiring? Some others are executives of major health care companies who will no doubt in the next 10 years (probably less) be out of jobs as the public option funded by our tax dollars, forces them out of business, what then? Those wealth enough will no doubt simply take the money and leave this country. Kind of hard to tax a person who does not live in nor have any property or money in this country isn't it?
When was the last time anyone ever heard of our federal government cutting cost without cutting benefits as they propose to do with Medicare?
I have a strong feeling that in 2012 we are once again going to see a major power shift in Congress for tonight many. many Democrats in all probability signed their own political death warrants. Goodbye Harry Reid I wish I could say it was great having you as our state Senator, but considering you have cost Nevada jobs instead of creating them as you lied about, well all I can say is GOOD RIDDANCE in 2010. My only wish is that for Nevada and the other states that will be replacing their Congress persons in 2010 that we can replace the rejects with someone better suited for the job.
To be fair about all this there are some parts of this "House Bill" that I do agree with. I agree with the part that makes it illegal to be denied health care because of a pre-existing condition. I agree with the part that makes it illegal to terminate health care if you get sick. I agree with the part that "claims" it will provide affordable health care to all Americans (although I will believe it when I see it actually happen.) I do not agree with nor see the necessity of the expansion of and waste of our money to create all the new committees and Czars. Nor do I agree with one person having the say so over what type of health care a person gets or does not. I do not agree with the creation of a public option and I believe in encouraging competition by allowing health care companies to compete across state lines. I especially do not agree with the part that in a communist/Marxist/Gustavo like move FORCES people to purchase health care and then only from a pool set up by and controlled by our federal government and even worse controlled by a Czar who will rule without any background check and if based on past actions, may well be a Marxist/Communist thinking, tax cheat with absolutely no medical training or any other qualification for the job. This seems to be the type of person POTUS Obama picks as his Czars and I for one will be pleasantly surprised to see this change should the final bill reach his desk to be signed into law.
let kids run things we would be better offDeletedHow could the first step of the Health Care Bill Pass?
No one asked the Majority of Americans if they wanted it.
What were all the marches and complaints to our Senators about?
This is one big farce, and it will cost every American, rich and poor a big hunk of change from their income, with Medical Care now becoming mediocre.
We just lost the Finest Medical Care in the World by the House of Representatives. One more step to Congress. They better make sure it is DOA.
None of the Democrats who voted for this Bill will be re elected again. They have already lost their importance and jobs.
Now comes the huge premium and fee increases (they'll avoid calling it a "tax") over the next 10 years, (but of course, they'll delay any benefits for much of that time to make it "deficit neutral").
They obviously think the American people are pretty dumb, but just wait until the 2010 elections, and we'll see who the REAL dummies are.
Are you and idiot or what? pelosi likens it to Social Security and Medicare. Well, people, Social Security will be broke within 20 years and Medicare is going to go broke within 10 years. The government cannot run SSI, Medicare, Medicaid, Post Office, cash for clunkers, and the stimulus package, amongst others. Everyone out there whether you support this healtcare bill or not needs to realize some things. The democrats bill does not disclude illegal aliens from healthcare insurance. It will drive doctors out of business. Less doctors, more patients, mean longer waits for services. How do any of you people think we will pay for this? obama said he would not sign anything over $1 trillion and deficit neutral. The CBO has stated it will cost at least $1.05 trillion and this does not include the over $225 billion the democrats say they will make up in doctor's fees lost. The CBO also says that the cost of this will reach over $2 trillion in 10 years. Who on this earth is going to pay for this and how? Margaret Thatcher once said "The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of money". This is exactly what is going to happen on this. You have SSI, Medicare, and Medicaid going broke and we have another gigantic cost of a program and have to figure out how to pay for it. This is coming out of the middle class. The same people that obama promised among dozens of others he has broken, the same middle class will foot the bill. Do you all have money for this? Do any of you people that currently have healthcare think for a moment that if this healthcare ever goes in to effect, that you employer won't drop you from their insurance? First of all, it is cheaper for them to drop you and force you on to the governments plan? You know it is going to happen. The employer or yourself will not want to pay 40% tax for any plan that costs over $8,000 per year. A normal plan for a family in my state is about $11,000. That means you pay 40% over $8,000 in taxes for the cadillac plan. For the companies and employees that manage to stay in their current healthcare, the CBO has estimated you premiums will go up over $1,500 over the current rate. Is this really what you people want? I would be willing to bet every penny I have that in 10 years most of you will be sorry. Bottom line, is that this healthcare bill is terrible for almost every one. This country has no money to pay for the nonsense spending and the deficit the democrats are putting in to place. We will be bankrupt, unless something is done. The american people had better come out of their dream world and wake up before it is too late.
First off - why is so much collapsed on this post? DOesn't anybody believe in free speech? Parnell Meagre does.
From the desk of Rep. Parnell Meagre - the Republican Health Care Plan
Meagre Care
1.) The government will totally remove itself from regulating the health care industry in any way. This means no expensive bureaucracy interfering with matters like licensing - no compulsory insurance - no meddling of any type. This means that anyone who cares to can provide medical treatment to anyone else. The market will determine what each health care provider can charge. This will result in a situation where somebody who has graduated from Johns Hopkins will be able to charge$2,000 per hour and somebody like Parnell Meagre who has nothing but a box of pills, a scalpel and a desire to help his fellow man would only be able to charge $20 or $25 per hour. This will also have a positive effect on unemployment as everyone will be able to be a doctor. Additionally, over a period of time it would have a salubrious effect on overpopulation and the inevitable byproduct of overpopulation - global warming.*
2.) Malpractice - when a doctor makes a mistake it will be the responsibility of the victim to extract a suitable revenge on the doctor. If the patient is physically unable to inflict appropriate punishment the responsibility will devolve to the injured parties family. If there is no family, then the victim may hire a third party (called goons) to extract revenge on the malpractitioner, if there are no funds to do this then it's like it is now, the patient is out of luck.
3.) Eliminate the controls over the pharmaceutical industry. The international market in illegal drugs is proof positive that the genius of the free market combined with the immutable laws of supply and demand are all that's needed.
4.) Cost savings - this whole plan instead of costing trillions that all the other plans from both parties cost can be instituted for exactly $225 Billion dollars (in a check payable to Parnell Meagre as a gift from a grateful nation).
This bill will require all citizens to buy health insurance, and the government will subsidize those who "can not afford it" but the GOVERNMENT will be the one to DECIDE who can or can not afford it. They will not take into account your liabilities, only your income and assets. "Why should the taxpayers subsidize your HCI when you own a house and a car?" Never mind that you can barely cover your bills now, and the restrictions on pre-existing conditions etc. will force ACROSS THE BOARD premium increases since the Ins. companies can't single those with higher risk out. Oh and since your employer now HAS to provide health care (It doesn't SAY free or even at reduced cost btw) your income is going DOWN too.
Also about the "pre-existing" condition restrictions; are you aware that that is how the Insurance Co's justify higher rates for nicotine users??? Get ready to cover the smokers lung transplant and cancer treatment on your dime as well.
Its time to cut spending and create jobs not more handouts!!! If Congress spent as much time figuring out how to get people back to work as they do giving away money people could afford what they need.
This is a sad day for America.
Polls have said that people want reform - but not government control. You can spin it all you want libs, but you're killing your own party. Speaking of spin, I can't wait to hear the POTUS and Pelosi to brag about this being a bipartisan bill cause one Repub voted for it.
It will not be affordable.
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#britain
With wholesale censorship of contributors posts, I wonder why I should even bother to post.
A two thousand page bill, 1.2 Trillion dollar price tag, barely passed by a majority might soon be a law.................
It is full of new bureaucracies, mandates, fines, and imprisonment threats......
It permits non-elected bureaucrats to manage and tax the citizens.........
It makes choice a silly proposition.... whereby, if you disagree with the "right" choice, your company will be financially penalized.
It mandates all citizens to "buy" insurance, even if their "free" choice is not to "buy" this product......... your "choice"----buy or pay a penalty......
This is not socialism, it is tyranny.................
The tyranny of our representatives on the citizenry..........
Are you an idiot, this bill and the cap and tax bill will kill this countries economy. Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid need to be treated just like Harvey Milk.
Michael:
President Obama doesn't want anything to do with our Military.
Ft. Hood, decisions about Afghanistan, getting back to Gen. McChrystal sending troops.
Health Care Reform bill outways the need for 16.5 per cent Unemployed.
What we have is a President who is an "Administrator, not a Leader.
The health care bill was deemed deficit neutral by the CBO. The Senate bill, as written by the Baucus committee, even generated revenue.
To all those cancer patients out there who have been refused insurance and dropped from your insurance after you've paid for years, the House Democrats have taken another of many steps to get you the treatment you desperately need without bankrupting your family. There is still morality in our gov't. You just have to know where to look.
As they say, the Republicans' health care plan is DON'T GET SICK....and if you do, DIE QUICKLY!
Deficit neutral....generating revenue....a government program? Bwaahahahahah!
now since insurance companies cant increase premiums for high risk individuals like alcoholics, smokers and the like maybe they should also make it illegal for car insurers to charge more for drunk drivers, frequent speeders and those who have accidents every week or so. they could make all premiums go up to pay for the increased claims by those offenders. wouldnt that be the same thing as the health care overhaul. why should my premiums be the same as a morbidly obese smoker who cant walk 1 block to the liquor store for his daily 6 pack of beer. do you want to pay the premiums for the hiv infected gay man who continues to practice unprotected sex and wants all the aids meds provided free of charge. if so step up and take over. i will even send you my premium bill and you can take care of it too.
f you want to let your Representative or Senator know where you stand on an issue, call them and tell them how THEIR next vote on an issue might affect YOUR next vote in 2010.
The numbers are as follows;
House of Representatives
(202) 225-3121
Senate
(202) 224-3121
Stand up-
Seeing things as black and white; I can see where you become confused on where to draw the line. Since it is Congress' jobs to pass regulations, rein in Big Pharma and pass tort reforms, for you, that means what....
Don't stop there? Instead of doing what's necessary, take control over heatlh care? Don't fix the afore mentioned problems, allow them to continue, but narrowly, partisanly pass government run health care option that neither addresses or fixes any of the above?
Yeah, I guess I can see where you'd think it's idiotic to expect our representatives to do their jobs instead of expanding welfare and government... you can't separate the two. Expecting regulations, tort reform, and reining in Big Pharma is the same as wanting government run health care.
Feeling a bit silly yet?
I, for the life of me, cannot see why Obama 'hails' the passing of this garbage. If he has contributed to the bill, it has been very little. And it's a sure bet he hasn't read it because that would take time away from his non-stop'I Love Me' tour. So, in other words, he really doesn't have a clue what's in this bill.
But given the chance, he'll sign it anyway...
Let's see now.
$400 Billion in cuts to Medicare - that should please the seniors.
$400 Billion in taxes and penalties to young people who don't want to buy insurance - that should make the young people who voted for the Democrats excited.
Higher premiums for the middle class to cover the higher costs of covering "pre-existing conditions" - that should make them happy.
Collect taxes and penalties for 3 years before ANY coverage kicks in - that should make everyone else happy, sort of like paying for a car for 3 years before we get to see it.
A "Public Option" that will drive insurance companies out of business because they won't have the taxpayer subsidies to compete, which will lose a million jobs or more,
Lower payments to doctors and hospitals, which will cause many of them to "retire early” or go out of business.
Is there any group that the Democrats left out when finding ways to screw up the economy?????
Oh - I almost forgot - They project the National Debt will go up by $1.2 Trillion more, which means it will ACTUALLY go up by about $3 Trillion because of this bill.
We can't wait for next year's elections to show our appreciation.
Of course we'll have to contend with ACORN, who will register a few million extra imaginary voters for the next election.
Phase one - complete
Phase two- in the works
Phase three- President Obama signs a bill that was first proposed at the turn of the century
Phase four - The American people are no longer held hostage by mighty corporations that presently take 1/6 (and hope to take much more in the near future) of their earnings for vital health care insurance that many may never use.
Phase five- Every American will recieve preventive health care BEFORE their condition requires an ER visit that requires extensive. extreme, and expensive treatment to cure a disease that could have been prevented. The average taxpayer will save millions.
Phase six - All of us that wish to pay any price for premium health care at any cost are free to do so. Your insurance company will be happy to oblige you.
STFU and get a job
I KNEW this was going to happen. (That way Obama wasn't lying when he said illegals would not be able to get medical coverage under his ObamaCare plan. His simple fix is to make them all legal first..)
EVERY ONE--PLEASE TAKE TIME TO LISTEN TO THIS--IT TELLS ABOUT THE BILL GOING THRU CONGRESS RIGHT NOW REGARDING IMMIGRATION.
EVEN CNN IS GETTING UPSET ABOUT THIS!!!!!!!!!!
Pass this on after you watch it. NOTICE THAT THIS IS FROM CNN, NOT = FOX!!!
This from CNN news: Click here: d.yimg.com/kq/groups/17260182/1610997888/name/ftc-vi26.wmv
This 2-minute video should be mandatory viewing for every US citizen. If you have never passed anything on before, pass this on! Every American should be outraged!
countries with government healthcare (IT DOES NOT WORK)
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#britain http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#europe http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#canada http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#ussr http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#cuba http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#nz http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#australia
countries with government healthcare (IT DOES NOT WORK)
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#britain http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#europe http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#canada http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#ussr http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#cuba http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#nz http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#australia
Why this race towards the edge of the cliff? Our leadership is standing far behind us yelling at us to jump off the mountain into the canyon far below. I cry for my country.
#7 - Sat Nov 7, 2009 7:46 AM ESTWhose Country.. it's the ObamaNation now.. If I had any money I'd move it overseas QUICK... but now I won't have any money..
Unless I get it the new American way.... STEAL IT!
Same old America that crushed the Whisky Rebellion, the Confederate South, and anybody else in the way of creeping Federalism
Yea, because we should all champion the Confederate South......
@!$%# them and the slaves they rode in on.
Haz...
You are not seriously pointing to the Confederate South as one of the high points of our American history, are you?
Roger-356271
What type of medicine do you practice? Proctology? I have only met 1 Oncology doctor that is for the healthcare reform and he is a douche bag. He was clueless and was speaking at a public forum. Considering this bill does not have much needed Tort Reform, is over 2,000 pages and hasn't even been read I am against it. I also refuse to have my premiums doubled I paid $6,000 dollars for health insurance that covered my daughter and myself. It's time to ween people off of the government tit- there are no free rides. The only sector with job growth is in the healthcare industry and Obama wants to destroy that.
Obviously, we live in a country full of idiots. Just watch Jay Leno walk down the street and ask people 2nd grade questions. They stumble and mumble and never get the answer.
Democracy sucks when your surrounded by idiots.
joe tony
Funny you will bring up "Tort Reform" the ultimate red herring that most doctors complain about. Funny if they were not so protective of their own and would expose the bad doctors for who they are, there would be fewer suits.
I patient that loses their life, or become physically disabled shouldn't have a cap of $250,000 attached to their life. This is the crux of "Tort Reform". Many people may think that this is a fair sum, but what if this was the main bread winner for the family. If a person was negligent, then they should be accountable for that act. The courts will toss out frivolouslawsuits, and we shouldn't worry about a doctor who is incompetent and will not leave the profession.
If the insurance companies made doctors pay insurance according to the claims filed against them, you would find that doctors who had stellar records, would have lower insurance. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Doctor's who frequently botch procedures are charge the same as those who don't. Maybe they should ask the insurance companies to look at their career and records and lower their rates. The same as if you were a great driver vs. one who gets in a lot of accidents. It's only fair.
Joe tony,
As I stated I am a Vascular Surgeon. I doubt that you have discussed this in depth with many in the Health Care industry or you would have found the majority do support it.
Despite the talking points of some of the media entertainers it is very clear given the debates on certain issues that it was read and even amended prior to the vote.
If you only pay $6000 per year for a plan that covers both you and your daughter and are very sure it provides adequate coverage I suggest you keep it and not worry about the Government plan. We pay $1300 per person per month for group family plans for our employees. That is with a $750 deductible and a 80/20 match in network up to an out of pocket maximum of $2000 per person per year. We also have a $20.00 copay on office visits and a copay of 20-35 dollars on medications that do not count in either your deductible or yearly out of pocket.
I would agree with you that tort reform is needed but it needs to be structured in a way that patients still have a recourse if they are injured or suffer as a direct result of negligence. I'm sure you are aware that the "Tort" procedure is very basically a means where the lawyer takes the case for free with the assurance they will receive a certain percentage of the settlement.
This is a two sided coin in a way that people need to clearly understand. Are people prepared to pay a lawyer $200 per hour and up to prepare a case that they may not win? The other side of the coin is of course is that it would eliminate many of the frivolous lawsuits currently being waged. Perhaps if the paid entertainers pretending to be news people would discuss this in simple terms and give both sides of this coin it would help the voters and politicians develop a clear opinion.
I also agree with you that those currently receiving Government, State, and City, Health Care and retirements at the taxpayers expense need to be put on the same level as those of us in the private sector. I am not talking about Social Security, Medicaid, or Medicare but rather those in political jobs be it elected or appointed. The way it is now we pay all of theirs but they don't pay a penny toward ours.
Finally Joe Tony, I don't believe President Obama wants to destroy our Health Care industry at all. As a matter of fact it will be expanded to include millions who currently do not have access.
Roger-356271
Hopefully your words will not fall on deaf ears.
The Democrats who voted against the bill:
John Adler (NJ)
Jason Altmire (PA)
Brian Baird (WA)
John Barrow (GA)
John Boccieri (OH)
Dan Boren (OK)
Rick Boucher (VA)
Allen Boyd (FL)
Bobby Bright (AL)
Ben Chandler (KT)
Travis Childers (MS)
Artur Davis (AL)
Lincoln Davis (TN)
Chet Edwards (TX)
Bart Gordon (TN)
Parker Griffith (AL)
Stephanie Herseth Sandlin (SD)
Tim Holden (PA)
Larry Kissell (NC)
Suzanne Kosmas (FL)
Frank Kratovil (MD)
Dennis Kucinich (OH)
Jim Marshall (GA)
Betsy Markey (CO)
Eric Massa (NY)
Jim Matheson(UT)
Mike McIntyre (NC)
Michael McMahon (NY)
Charlie Melancon (LA)
Walt Minnick (ID)
Scott Murphy (NY)
Glenn Nye (VA)
Collin Peterson (MN)
Mike Ross (AR)
Heath Shuler (NC)
Ike Skelton (MO)
John Tanner (TN)
Gene Taylor (MS)
Harry Teague (NM)
good job, let's consider them for reelection.
At least these libs had the intellegence to listen to the people. They knew they would be out if they voted for it. The idiot in chief sacrificed the rest. Poll numbers today are already showing that.
The current plan is a bad idea - it does not give coverage for everyone, it will require tax increases for EVERYONE, it will limit choices as the government funded program squeezes out the other private plans, it does nothing to control costs and it will not provide better medical treatment.
That being said I know of nobody that is opposed to cheaper health care costs or coverage for those less fortunate. What is unfortunate is that if you want to talk about those ways to get to these matters that do not include the libs public option then you are ignored or called names.
Wall Street banks go to the front of the line for H1N1 shots
By Tom Eley
7 November 2009
With millions who need the the H1N1 vaccine unable to get it, major financial firms in New York, among them Citigroup and Goldman Sachs, have received larger distributions of the inoculation than many hospitals.
As of late October, Citigroup had been given 1,200 doses, more than half of its request, and Goldman Sachs had received 200 doses of the 5,400 it requested, about 4 percent.
By contrast, a major New York City hospital, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, has been given only 200 of 27,400 doses, less than 1 percent of what it asked for its doctors, nurses, and staff, who will be responsible for caring for the sick in the event of a major outbreak.
Nationwide, hospitals, clinics, and pediatricians have received only a small fraction of what they need, a result of the failure of major pharmaceutical corporations to produce an adequate supply as promised.
Just over 35 million doses of the vaccine are now available, but there are nearly 160 million Americans defined as “high risk” who should be inoculated. According to a survey by the Harvard School of Public Health, only about one third of those who have tried to get the vaccine have been able to do so.
All over the country, the dearth of the vaccine has resulted in long lines at hospitals and clinics, school closures, and a rising number of deaths. H1N1 has claimed the lives of more than 1,000 in the US and 5,000 globally.
The distribution to Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, and 13 other New York City-based organizations—including JP Morgan Chase, Time Warner, and the Federal Reserve Board of New York—was ordered by local health officials and approved by the Obama administration’s Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).
Spokesmen for Citigroup and Goldman Sachs claim that the vaccines have only been administered to employees in high-risk categories, including pregnant women. “Like other responsible employers, [Goldman Sachs] has requested vaccine and will supply it only to employees who qualify,” a company representative said.
These assurances mean little. Having been given the vaccine dosages, the banks distribute them without supervision. More to the point, why should wealthy executives and traders—even those with compromised immune systems—be given precedence over health care workers, children, and pregnant women in the public at large? Why can’t the bankers and traders at the Wall Street firms go wait in line like everyone else?
Aware that the spectacle of flu vaccine hoarding by the same big Wall Street firms that received hundreds of billions in taxpayer bailout money could trigger a public backlash, the Obama administration has shifted to damage control.
Dr. Thomas R. Frieden, director of the CDC, wrote a letter to health officers warning them that policies “that appear to direct the vaccine to people outside the identified priority groups have the potential to undermine the credibility of the program.”
The Obama administration and public health officials in New York have alternately claimed the decision to put the big banks at the front of the line was a mistake, and defended the policy as “a great avenue for vaccinating people at risk,” as Jessica Scaperotti of New York City’s Department of Health and Mental Hygiene put it.
Such protestations are absurd. From both a medical and organizational standpoint, hospitals, elementary schools and nursing homes are much better candidates for the distribution of immunizations.
This is confirmed by the CDC’s own list of at-risk populations, which includes children and health care workers, teenagers, people caring for infants under the age of six months, pregnant women, and those with respiratory health problems. These categories hardly call to mind the well-heeled executives and traders at Wall Street banks.
What underlays the decision to distribute immunizations to major private entities ahead of hospitals and schools is neither a mistake nor an objective assessment of the medical value of such distributions.
The episode demonstrates the supremacy of America’s financial elite, which increasingly dictates every policy decision and every facet of social life, and more and more takes on the trappings of an aristocracy. Any government response to a disaster of nature, disease, or, soon enough, social revolt, will take as its first order of business the preservation of this narrow layer.
The inescapable essence of the matter is this: it is taken for granted in government that the lives and health of the rich are worth more than those of the working class. The vaccine distribution to Goldman Sachs and Citigroup was not “caught” precisely because the banks’ privileged position is assumed.
Yet the arrogance and presumptuousness of the financial aristocracy is itself becoming an explosive factor in the political life of the nation.
This has been reflected in the public reaction to the revelations about the vaccine distribution to Wall Street, and the phony denunciations by the likes of Democratic Senator Christopher Dodd, who has been for many years among the most favored recipients of the finance industry’s campaign contributions.
The allocation of scarce vaccines to the big banks is in fact entirely in keeping with the Obama administration’s response to the economic crisis. The US government has given over trillions to the banking industry to help it profit from the financial collapse of its own making. Meanwhile, the Obama administration refuses any jobs program that would counter mass unemployment, as the official jobless rate surges over 10 percent.
The revelation that Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, and others have cornered for themselves a share of the vaccine supply is yet another example of destructive impact of the capitalist market on public health.
Last spring, the Obama administration turned over the production of the vaccine to a handful of large pharmaceutical firms. Because the industry finds vaccines unprofitable, it relies on outdated production methods. This explains the shortage of the vaccine.
But even were there an adequate supply, it would have to be distributed through an American public health system that has been the victim of decades of cuts and layoffs—a trend accelerated in the current economic crisis. The situation is such that President Obama declared a national emergency on October 23, relaxing rules so special distribution centers might be put in place.
While passing this bill would be a "victory" for the Democrats, it is really a watered-down giveaway to the Insurance Companies and Pharmaceutical Companies.
How embarrassing to be an American for the last 9 years.
Can't we just be adults and support the human right of universal healthcare coverage?
I cant wait to vote Chris Murphy and Chris Dodd out of office. These 2 douche bags from CT are done! I hope the good people of Massachusetts vote out that rude, nasty, boy chasing homo, Barney Frank. What a disgrace he is......it is unbelievable the way he speaks to and about his constituents.
millssupporter, you talk about a debate in your post, but don't say what you believe...you (and others if you are being sarcastic) should know that there are more than "poor" and "rich" in this country. There are many of us in the middle, many who started out poor, got an education (which we are still paying for), and are working making less than $200,000 per year (man, that sounds like so much to me). I make good money (in my opinion), I work hard, I pay my bills and I believe that others should have the same blessings that I have. Looking at those around me, I feel extremely blessed (mainly because of my insurance, which I was surprised to get because of several pre-existing conditions). We are supposed to take care of one another. I can assure you that there are many "middle class" people who can not afford insurance. If they pay their other bills, they have nothing left for insurance. It is a sad situation that people should not have to make...food or health care. It is a decision that no one should have to make. it should be a right, not a privilege. I wish that others understood it. I wish that others would know how it feels to be sick and not know how you are going to pay your bills, buy your medicine, provide for those you love. It is a hopeless feeling. Death seems better sometimes. If you don't believe me, speak to someone who you know who may have some chronic illness (like lupus) and see what he/she says about this bill. I hope that our senators don't act like a bunch of morons and vote against this bill. I know my senators (Lamar Alexander and Bob Corker of Tennessee) won't vote for this bill, but I am in high hopes that it will pass.
Did you even listen to C-Span last night as this Senate Version was debated and ultimately voted in? In case you did not let me give you a clue. The Republicans do not want to kill true "health care reform." They do want to kill the Democrat's Health care take over plans. This bill will create a Health Czar who will have final say as to what kind or health care a person gets. How much will be paid for it and what hospitals and doctors a person can or can not go to using the "Public Option," and he doesn't even have to be a Doctor! There are provisions for countless committees to do studies to see if there are needs to create committees to control countless facets of this massive health care take over plan and at a cost of Billions of dollars. This plan would expand the size of our federal government by 10s of thousands of people on nice cushy salaries paid for by anyone who pays taxes.
If that is not bad enough for you the Senate version wants to penalize those few people fortunate enough to have good health care coverage and force the rest to sign up of be fined for not having health care. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself this one fundamental question: If this is such a good thing, why are the members of Congress, their staff, the POTUS, his staff and family exempt from it?
I do not know if you believe in GOD or not but most of those who do have a fundamental belief that GOD put us here on earth and gave use a little thing called "FREE WILL" so that we could make decisions for ourselves that effect our daily lives. Now Obama and Congress want to take this away by forcing everyone onto their Public Option? For what reason? So they can make it more affordable for all? NO their true agenda is CONTROL.....PERIOD...
Real and affordable health care "reform" that actually controls costs and coverage and at the same time give people free will is a good thing. Forcing people to accept the will of the government is something that a Dictator does not the leader of a free country.
I for one hope those in Congress realize this and if real health care "reform" can not be agreed on then kill the whole thing before we lose the freedom that our founding fathers fought to give us and our military past and present have fought for and far too many have gave their lives to protect.
One final thought: They (Congress and Obama) claim that this is what Americans want. I challenge them to a test. Put this to a public vote, give people to actually read and understand what they are voting for, or against and then see what Americans really want. They won't do this because they know what the outcome would be.
Nancy Pelosi is laughing in the picture - guess who she is laughing at? All of you who support her and her "public option". Just like the housing industry she and her pals will get richer from kick-backs and the rest of us will be screwed. Does she care? Not a bit because either she will be working for the government, in which case she will have good health care while you will not or b, she will be so rich that it won't make any difference, she can buy her own doctor.
I find it interesting that there is the argument about the "rich old white guys" and the Republicans (by the way most independents and Republicans that I know are neither old nor rich and are of all races) still continues since from the looks of it the Democrats are a a bunch old, rich guys and one old rich white lady. Oops - forgot - they are led by a rich young black guy - that must make all the difference right?!
A trillion dollars buys you what with this bill? Coverage of 10M people better not cost a Trillion dollars. What pork barrel is in this POS bill?
i want to know why. i have spent tthe last 10 yr of my life getting healthy. quit smoking, watch my diet. exercise daily. now my health insurance is going to go up so i can help pay for some morbidly obese smoker who drinks a case of beer a week and has it delivered so he doesnt have to walk to the store. and i may also have to pay for his electric chair to assist him in getting to the doctor. i dont want to be responsible for his excesses but the socialist liberals say i have to . to spread the wealth. well my wealth is slim. retirement check. and no boss to ask for a raise. but my insurance will still go up to accomodate the other anal orifice. i truely hope all the liberals have to use the government option and get in the long lines at the clinics. also since they are cutting medicare payments to providers, how many doctors will be retiring to make a shortage even shorter. not many will want to jump through the government hoops to get paid. i am really sickened by our government.
Millssupporter
The rich voting for the republicans is a MYTH. 2/3 of campaign donations of the "rich" went to the democratic party in 2008. Lawyers were 90% for the democratic party and the 2nd largest contributers to the Deomcratic party.
The Top Two richest people according to Forbes richest 400 2009 are democrats. 12 out of the top 20 richest are Democrats.
The exit polls in Virginia showed that under 30,000 (1% of those polled) voted 64% for the democrat AND 57% with greater than $200,000 voted for the democrat. Everone in between voted an average for the Republican.
This has been going on for years. Saying otherwise is liberal speak.
There's more to that story. Apparently, there was a vaccine that required 3 treatments to protect you. They could easily have enough ready before the flu season.
This was unacceptable to the administration. The pharmaceutical industry told the administration, they could make a single dose vaccine, but they would not be able to produce enough in time. This was one of those you will have a single application vaccine and you will have it on time things.
I will applaud the Senate if they do NOT take the baton and "finish off" the taxpaying citizens of America. Unfunded mandates by the Federal Government are completely unacceptable; mandatory individual purchase of health insurance, or face a penalty, cannot be imposed as a condition of citizenship in a free country. I hope the Senate has the intestinal fortitude to stop government takeover of our country's health care.
"Deficit neutral"????????????
What a joke. Why not tell the truth, which is that it will raise taxes on everyone for 10 years - especially those that can't afford insurance, while only paying for full benefits for about 5 years. I'd love it too if you paid me for insurance for 10 years, but I wait 5 years before I start covering you.
What they don't tell you is that the NATIONAL DEBT will go up by $1.2 Trillion (my bet is the actual will be closer to $2 Trillion) as a result of this bill, which will be in addition to the $1.2 Trillion wasted on the "stimulus" bill and the ""no more pork" bill that wasted over $400 Billion on Obama's favorite pork projects.
For your information, the National Debt has historically gone up twice as much as the "deficit" because of the phony accounting the government uses.
That's why the combined annual "Deficits" over the last 30 years have amounted to $4.560 Trillion, but the National Debt over the last 30 years has increased by $9.196 Trillion.
For example, Bill Clinton claimed “Budget SURPLUSES” for 1998 – 2000 of $428 Billion, so most people believed that we were on track to pay off the National Debt, yet the National Debt INCREASED by $259 Billion in those years – a “swing” difference of $687 Billion more spending than the “deficits/surpluses” would seem to indicate.
Obama's own budget projections call for the National Debt to increase to over $23 Trillion in 10 years - but his projections are pie-in-th-sky, because it will actually be closer to $30 Trillion and will saddle our children and grandchildren with hopeless debt.
"Change we can believe in".
Yeah well, I believe it was G. Bush Jr. who ran the highest deficit ever, and, oh dear, I think he was a republican!
Yes Roger and I am an astronot,isn't fun when you can say anything and people don't know.
Let's see now.
$400 Billion in cuts to Madicare - that should please the seniors.
$400 Billion in taxes and penalties to young people who don't want to buy insurance - that should dampen the enthusiasm of the young people who voted for the Democrats.
Higher premiums for the middle class to cover the higher costs of covering "pre-existing conditions" - that should make them happy.
Collect taxes and penalties for 3 years brfore ANY coverage kicks in - that should make everyone else happy,
A "Public Option" that will drive insurance companies out of business because they won't have the taxpayer subsidies to compete, which will lose a million more jobs,
Lower payments to doctors and hospitals, which will cause many of them to "retire early?
Is there any group that the Democrats left out when finding ways to screw up the economy?????
Oh - I almost forgot - They project the National Debt will go up by $1.2 Trillion more, which means it will ACTUALLY go up by about $3 Trillion because of this bill.
I guess that covers just about everybody except ACORN, who will register a few million extra imaginary voters for the next election.
Patton was right...we should have erradicated all the commies and socialists in '45. If we would have let him finish the job, we wouldn't be dealing with these scumbags today.
There has never been a time in the history of our Government that has taken so long with drawn out BS than right now, just think of how much we pay these ding dongs to be confused at each other..!
Emily-1459165 "Yeah well, I believe it was G. Bush Jr. who ran the highest deficit ever"
Nice try, but Bush's largest "deficit" was $455 Billion (Fiscal year end 2008), but Obama's "deficit" for his first Fiscal Year end in office was $1.42 Trillion - 3 times as much - largely as a result of his "stimulus" spending and his "no more pork" pork bill of over $400 Billion.
If anyone thinks the road in the senate will be rough on that health bill, those that allowed that piece of ill written butt wipe to get past the house by voting for it are in a lot more trouble than they ever thought and that one RINO is all but gone already.
If you can't picture just how ignorant these elected dimwits are you soon will.
All you FOX tongue waggers out there, inform them poor clods in the house they need to take cover.
Because the evil democrats want to give us to China they have no concence and do not like freedom they will do everything in their power to loose our free country. They want China to be the curancy of the world and the cliff jumpers will go for any story they tell them to cover the fact they really do not like a free country.
October 23 2009 full vid can be found here http://tinyurl.com/sorosisscum In a recent interview Soros spills the beans, talks about the new world order and describes the current and future manage...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOjckJWqb0A
This should tell you why the democrats want to spend us into the hands of china and for those of you who have cowtowed to the democrats wishes and did not know the truth wake up and smell the coffee.
All the hard-working folks are screwed. Just to benefit the shiftless and illegals. Thanks so much US govt. (NOT!!!!!)
I KNEW this was going to happen. (That way Obama wasn't lying when he said illegals would not be able to get medical coverage under his ObamaCare plan. His simple fix is to make them all legal first..)
EVERY ONE--PLEASE TAKE TIME TO LISTEN TO THIS--IT TELLS ABOUT THE BILL GOING THRU CONGRESS RIGHT NOW REGARDING IMMIGRATION.
EVEN CNN IS GETTING UPSET ABOUT THIS!!!!!!!!!!
Pass this on after you watch it. NOTICE THAT THIS IS FROM CNN, NOT = FOX!!!
This from CNN news: Click here: d.yimg.com/kq/groups/17260182/1610997888/name/ftc-vi26.wmv
This 2-minute video should be mandatory viewing for every US citizen. If you have never passed anything on before, pass this on! Every American should be outraged!
Roy, Roy, Roy...
We've discussed the cause of the deficit before yet you keep up the lies....
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/white-house-watch/bushs-red-ink-obamas-problem.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html
Obama's contribution to the deficit, stimulus included? 10%.
Your current health bill facts are pretty dismal as well... you need to go read the bill again.
Did anyone notice in the article there was no mention of health care coverage premiums escalating $4000.00 per year and a tax increase on anyone making over 45K. Quite a jump from the 250K promised by the eternal campaigner. If Obama believes the rhetoric he reads from the teleprompter during his speaches. I feel sorry for us all. Right mow labels mean nothing REP, DEM, BLK, WHT, RED, COM, SOC, CHR, JEW, MUS, anyone under this guys law is in trouble!!!!!!!!
DOOFUS must already have the votes or else he wouldn't be going to the House today. He cannot afford another public thumping. Face it, the guy is a loser and dragging us with him. 12 trillion in debt, 10.2% unemployment, foreign policy failures, I don't know if we can afford another 3 years of this meglomaniac.
#8 - Sat Nov 7, 2009 7:55 AM ESTFour votes!! Him and Acorn are probably passing out the flyers... Massive Landslide!
:( Just like his alledged election.. Now we outsourse everything even got a Kenyon President
Haz...
You really need to get some facts together so your silly posts even make sense.
A vote is a vote, and this proposed bill would have been a win if there was even a one-vote margin. Or do you just not understand how voting works?
Relative to who might be "passing out flyers", where is the problem here>? It certainly is not illegal, any more than Dick Armey's "army" traveling around with their organized and subsidized "grassroots" protests, is.
And yet again, you don't understand voting at all. There was nothing "alleged" about the last election. At least it did not require the Supreme Court to determine a winner.
And finally, you are again misinformed. The President is only one-half Kenyan, which would actually mean one-half British, since Kenya was a British territory at that time.. His mother was from Kansas.
I hope you get your money back from whoever educated you.
Ronald Reagan, Republican.
In order to cover newly spawned federal budget deficits, the United States borrowed heavily both domestically and abroad, raising the national debt from $700 billion to $3 trillion.[117] Reagan described the new debt as the "greatest disappointment" of his presidency.His own words not mine.
Bill Clinton,Democrat : All I can recall his ECONOMICAL SURPLUS.
George W. Bush, Republican.
By October 2008, due to increases in domestic and foreign spending,[92] the national debt had risen to $11.3 trillion,[93][94] an increase of over 100% from the start of the year 2000 when the debt was $5.6 trillion.[95][9
WC, review your civics and history. Pres. Reagan submitted a balanced budget and a Democratic controlled Congress pronounced it dead on arrival. The Congress, not the President, set spending. He may make requests but they fill in the amount. You also might review the huge increase in taxes caused by Reagan tax cuts, you know the ones you give Clinton credit for. Clinton cut the hell out of the military to save some to give away at Fannie and Freedie, which started the whole housing mess.
Brandon:
You only deserve a one word answer. NO!
namdoc23:
I did n't made the history I just copy and paste.
One question. Who is going to pay for it?
This has nothing to do with Dem or Rep. just tell me who will pay for it?
#9 - Sat Nov 7, 2009 8:01 AM ESTSo let me get this straight... stupid is as stupid does...right? Because things that happened before were stupid it is OK to continue that. In any case you didn't answer either. WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR THIS?
You won't get an answer.
It's typical liberal crap, and what they don't realize is exactly what you pointed out:
By pointing to past mistakes and saying, what about that!!!?!, they are admitting to knowing full well that this is also a mistake.
Defend the bill, cretin, because I will not give you the courtesy of including American. DEFDEND THE BILL.
I've learned that "arguing" with a lefty is like having a peeing contest with a skunk. Don't even try.
The level of debate on this board is largely on the childish side. PragmaticToAFault, how can you tell someone that they are not American simply for expressing a view (one that, offhand, does not in any way appear to be denigrating America but rather carrying on the American tradition of freedom of speech)? I'm just wondering. Let's all try and act like adults here, and not like third-graders (who are probably having a more civilized debate, come to think of it, than we are on these boards).
The reaction to this bill - and the entire health care reform effort - simply amazes me. This is not about nationalizing the farming industry or starting an indoctrination program in schools. This is not even about starting another war or deciding what to do with the Gitmo detainees. This is about HEALTH CARE. Health care, people. How can we continue to allow so many Americans, many of them children, many of them who are not poor and uninsured, but middle-class and underinsured, to be denied access to services because they do not have proper insurance coverage? It is a travesty and we as a nation should be ashamed that this state of affairs has been able to continue for as long as it has. I guess the rift in public opinion comes from a fundamental difference in philosophy. I for one believe that access to health care is a fundamental human right (supported by article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights by the way). Therefore, it is incumbent on the state to ensure that that right is protected. It seems to me (and I don't want to generalize) that those who do not support this bill or those who do not support universal health care and similar initiatives do not believe that it is a fundamental right, but rather a privilege. If you believe the former, the merit of this initiative is a no-brainer. If you believe the latter, you are more likely to think that this is a giveaway to the poor and an ill-conceived expansion of government.
The bill probably does has its faults (I'm still reading it), and I am not totally convinced that it will be deficit-neutral, though the CBO's assessments are heartening, but to be honest, I don't really care if we have to go into a little debt if it means that we are taking care of our own. We are all Americans - we should be standing together and supporting one another. If we can pay through the nose for war, we should be able to pay through the nose to help Americans right here at home. If attempts to expand access to health care are considered un-American, then that attitude is what makes me cry for this country.
Now, who is going to pay for this, you ask. According to what I've read, the program will be paid for through a surtax on the incomes of families making $500,000 or more, plus certain reductions in Medicare spending. But let's be honest - it may add to the deficit. It seems to me that one can never really promise deficit neutrality. However, I'd much rather add to the deficit if it means that the ER's won't be as crowded, everyone will have the freedom to switch jobs without losing coverage, or needn't worry about losing their coverage if they lose their job, and everyone will have more options, which will increase competition in the health insurance marketplace and release the stranglehold that the insurance companies have on this system. I'd certainly rather go into debt for those objectives than for a pointless war. Any day of the week.
GR -
Do you really believe that this bill is deficit neutral? Do you really believe that the government will not be reaching into your own pocket to pay for this? DO YOU REALLY? ER less crowded? If this bill passes, you have not seen a crowded ER yet.
our hard earned money will be forcefully taken from us to cover the mooch, entitled, gov't dependents. it is a way to spread the wealth around. it's called trickle up poverty. they won't take mine without a fight.
850 billion wasted each year in healthcare
37% of that $850 billion wasted due to lack of sensible tort laws and the resulting defensive medicine.
Where is the tort reform in this bill? Nowhere.
The democrats will not take on the trial lawyers, and they admit it.
22% fraudulent Medicaid claims. THAT'S how well our government handles the already inordinate amount of responsibility they have in health care.
18% in administrative waste.
Here's a link to the full article. It does nicely to make a case AGAINST gov't run health care, not for it.
GR04 - You obviously haven't read many of Americancretins' posts. Ultra leftwing, expat living somewhere in Europe with a general disdain for American society and politics. Read on, you'll soon note the obvious, and understand Pragmatic more.
95% of the posts here, on a daily basis, are typical right wingnut teabagger "we're the only true American patriots" crap! It's all just a bunch of Obama haters who want to spew their mental diarrhea! Socialist! Communist! Gov. Takeover! Taking our freedom! Oh God, maybe they'll take our guns next! Yeah, we'll vote those bums out just you wait and see! This is how fascism begins, with people having attitudes like the ones paraded here.
Fascism is already in play, and it's being televised on cSpan as we speak.
Read the damn bill it is posted on the congressional web site. Jeez
So let me get this straight... stupid is as stupid does...right? Because things that happened before were stupid it is OK to continue that. In any case you didn't answer either. WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR THIS?
Why don't you just say it? The latest right-wing rallying cry, "we need to move forward" No sheeeeeit, but don't you even try to think any of us are going to forget the last 8 years, ever!
Well China will finance it, I guess like everything else.. till they decide to reposses.
Mr Bill.... You are crazy enough to ask a bunch of Liberal/Progressive who will pay for it...??
What... Didn't you know in Liberal Utopia there IS no money.... they all float around on a dope cloud and and pass out the free love and human entitlement programs..
(This add was financed by... me... the same guy who has to pay for the rest of the lazy asses who get by on Government Handouts and free cheese with the profits he used to make from machinery he used to sell at the company where he used to employ people)....
"used to" being said because as soon as this bill hits and I am required to pay anyone's health care who I do not deem an absolute necessity to my company... THEY AND ANYONE LIKE THEM will be tossed out on their ass to find a new job so someone ELSE can pay their heath care bills for them..... That's the future.... dummies
Pragmatic,
The reason we don't care about TORT reform is because it is a pipe dream made up by the insurance companies and sold to republicans.
See there are a number of states (MI, FL, etc..) that have had serious tort reform and are now among the MOST EXPENSIVE states for insurance!!!
But I wouldn't expect blinded righties to argue much with a corporation since they fund ALL of your congessmen.
GR04, please let me know how you're believing the cool-aid being forcibly shoved down your throats. The bill claims to be deficit neutral, yet the CBO shows the actual cost to be at LEAST $400B in excess of Pelosis advertisements. Add to this that revenues coming from taxation, from savings in Medicare and from premiums of the younger groups, are all wildly unrealistic. If people would take off their politically motivated blinders they'd see it's just not possible. We WILL see taxes across the entire spectrum to pay for this, and just like with other federal programs, it will only grow larger in size. The percent of gdp that this bill assumes is incredibly. It is playing with an armed bomb, and the liberals are wearing blindfolds and lying as fast as they can.
Cookie, take your incredibly weak overly biased and non-fact based rhetoric elsewhere. Tort reform has never ever had "serious reform". It needs to happen - on a federal level. Defensive medicine is out of control. Here's why liberals don't want it. It's very simple . 2 obvious reasons.
1) Democrats are and have been in bed with lawyers. Heck, one of your presidential candidates (Johnny boy) was an ambulance chaser personally, making millions off of it.
2) It flies in the face of personal responsibility, accountability and reason. It's another selfish, "me-me" something for nothing method of taking money from somebody else.
climber,
Weak? Prove it, where are your facts? Mine are in the cost of insurance in states that have actually had serious tort reform, or are redstates, i.e highest rates!
Derek...
I would respectfully offer that you should not be running a business at all. Anyone who hires people but simply exploits them for his own gain should not be running anything where other people are involved.
As a business owner I do consider maintaining the health of the human beings I want to help make me successful a necessary cost of doing business. Unlike you, I would be ashamed to actually admit that I do not value and protect the health of my employees, not just because it is a selfish thing to do (I am sure you have made sure your employees have paid for the best health insurance for yourself and your family), but because it is simply good business. But I guess that part escapes you as you anticipate tossing people on their asses.
When you do this, who is going to make all those profits for you so you can continue to supply yourself with the best of everything, including health insurance? I'm sorry, but you do not understand at all the true nature of teamwork as it applies to good business, and the interdependence of both employers and employees in insuring maximum success. Your failure may then teach you something you definitely need to learn.
I prefer to Kool-Aid to the Hater-Ade you've been sucking down like a baleen whale in a school full of plankton.
slowclimber GR04, please let me know how you're believing the cool-aid being forcibly shoved down your throat
'scuse me,
"95% of the posts here, on a daily basis, are typical right wingnut teabagger "we're the only true American patriots" crap! It's all just a bunch of Obama haters who want to spew their mental diarrhea! Socialist! Communist! Gov. Takeover! Taking our freedom! Oh God, maybe they'll take our guns next! Yeah, we'll vote those bums out just you wait and see! This is how fascism begins, with people having attitudes like the ones paraded here."
95%? I don't know if that's true or not because I don't have the time to count them up. I have no idea what is meant by a "wingnut". I have yet to indicate I am "the the only true American patriot". Mental diarrhea? Can you define that for me? Then a bunch of name calling.
Linda, I have lived during fascist takeovers and I can state unequivocally that the way it begins is by having one group give up their rights and then insisting all the other groups give up theirs. Sound familiar?
If you would cease using name calling and derogatory remarks, you might begin to understand how Americans need to consider this matter.
the dems say all the money will come from corp and health care taxes which they also say will not be passed on to the consumer. see the benevolent corporations are going to just absorb the losses. in a pigs eye.
Catmoves, that is the most sensible post that I have seen on here thanks.
MrBill - thats easy - your question of who will pay for this? As you said it does not matter - Democrat or Republican - you will pay. So will I. And our children.
"According to what I've read, the program will be paid for through a surtax on the incomes of families making $500,000 or more, plus certain reductions in Medicare spending. But let's be honest - it may add to the deficit. It seems to me that one can never really promise deficit neutrality"
My children and my parents both thank you!
Note: The last time the rich were supposed to pay for everything 1932. The next year down the economy went further - with the help of another installment of Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act of 1932.
the repugs would have never passed a health care bill without the dems pushing them in a corner. but now they are in that corner and have come up with a very good bill. a bill that reforms health care and it is cheap. instead of a control bill, it is a health care bill. but it will never pass because of the votes. i hope they vote today and it does not pass. even with dumboy in the chamber. he and skanky nancy could cry together.
#11 - Sat Nov 7, 2009 8:06 AM ESTWhere's it at? I've been waiting to see it since this mess started.
arthur...
Since they introduced it so late, they had no choice but to let it come in as an amendment. I did read it, and it had three main points.
1. It did nothing about pre-existing condition clauses but develop a commission to study the issue. The same was true of any other regulations of the health insurance industry.
2. It allowed the insurance companies to sell across the state lines, but without any regulation. This would create the same situation we have both the credit card industry and many of the banks. They simply incorporate in the states, like Delaware, where there are practically no regulations, and then when you buy from them, you are not able to appeal any of their actions to the insurance commission in your own state. In addition, it did not require them to even sell anything in any particular state. They could simply choose not to sell to you, and you would have no recourse. Finally, it did nothing about the fact that there are not 1300 companies but only a couple of dozen playing dba games so as to operate in states where their licenses to operate have been pulled due to lack of conformance with that state's requirements.
3. It offered a rather vague tort reform cap scenario patterned after California's, which has done nothing to cause the malpractice insurance companies to drop their premium rates, but has deprived people with legitimate claims from even covering their medical bills for true malpractice claims. Since there is already a commission in place putting together a separate piece of legislation to address all of these issues simultaneously, this is really a moot point now.
Personally, I think my first point is one of the most important things that must be addressed in any health care reform bill, and I don't believe it needs any further study. It just needs to be made illegal. Period.
As much as I hate to say it,this bill too shall pass. Neither side cares what "We The People" think or want. Just look at Medicare/Medicaid and the pig flue debacle to see how well gov. health care will work. If you weren't FORCED into paying for Medicare I would opt-out.
#13 - Sat Nov 7, 2009 8:09 AM ESTthey are doing exactly what we the people want.
no thier not
yes they are !
Maybe you, probably a welfare recipiant; but the majority of America does not want this. We are sick of government intervening in our lives. This is against the Constitution of the United States of America. Forcing the American people, taking our choices away...cap and trade is next.....come back and talk Brad when you cannot afford to pay your electric bill. This is all a way for Obama to become a dictator. This bill was more important to him than the troop decision. Why, control, power to this maniac.
43% of Americans - that's not doing what Americans want!
welfare ha ha ha i pay for you patriot and everyone else who doesnt have insurance. group health raised their rates last week 34% so my company dropped them and i one option and thats to pay $6.50 per hour for crap insurance...thats over 1040.00 a month....give me options not bankruptcy!!!!
stspecialk yes they are they are screwing us and the American constitution.
Impeach him Bring in Hillary
brad...
Your company and mine, which has thousands in the group, must have the same insurer. We got hit last Monday. We had no say, and in our state, we have no choice. So far, our employer is transferring the increase to us but not dropping the benefit contract, so I guess we are all feeling that something is better than nothing.
We are all for paying for another option, even a public one. We have been told there will be another similar increase next year, and that would take over 50% of our lowest paid employees' salaries, whether anything passes Congress or not.
I don't think the proposed bills are perfect, but I can't recall a bill that was. They all have to be modified along the way. This one will undoubtedly be too. But we need choice and competition, and we definitely need an end to things like pre-existing condition clauses and rescission.
Every time someone without insurance goes to the emergency room, each of us pays $1200. We can't afford this either, especially as more and more people are losing benefits.
I really think the people who are so adamantly supporting the status quo have enough resources to deal with all this raping and pillaging from the financial sector and their subsidiary, the health insurance companies. They have no understanding of those of us working our tails off and getting kicked in the behind at every turn, so I guess when you have that much, or possibly work for these same entities, you get the luxury of thinking everyone beneath you is some kind of ne'er-do-well.
They don't even understand that if you were in that category you could go get all the free health care you needed. Sometimes I think we should all stop fighting this and all go on Medicaid. Then those people complaining at the top would actually be supporting the majority of the people in this country, and business really would come to a grinding halt. I can't imagine why, but maybe that really is what they want.
they are doing exactly what we the people want.
no thier not
yes they are !
M R knot
S A R
M R knot
S A R S A R S A R
If you listen to a NBC/ABC/CBS/CNN or democrat party sponsored poll America does
IF you listen to Rasmussen/Gallup/Fox Poll or a republican sponsored poll - America Doesn't want this bill.
The difference is who is polled. NBC & those polls use up to 10 points less republicans than are registered to vote.
Hasn't anyone else noticed that most of the bitter opposition to national health care comes from the people who HAVE it. And don't bother answering that the elderly worked hard all their lives to pay for their Medicare. In the first place, Medicare is not Social Security, you can get it without having worked a day. In the second place, we are all STILL working to provide it for them.
A lot of the opposition is also due to the barrage of slogans, propaganda and half-truths coming from the most wealthy and powerful interests in the country. A favorite half-truth, which I heard years ago, is "Canadians are coming HERE for health care." Yeah, if they can afford it. And we are going to India for affordable surgery.
#14 - Sat Nov 7, 2009 8:11 AM ESTI worked in a hospital in VT and yes Canadians do come here. Please tell me why again I should pay for you? Have the illegals paid all their lives for Medicare. Do the welfare baby squirters pay for anything. Please, please, please tell me again why I shoudl support you or any other leach?
.
You'right I do have my own and I am helping with medicare. Now you want me to pay for this behemoth too? I simply can't afford it.
.
Defend the bill.
No name calling, no finger pointing.
Yes, 260 million people HAVE insurance. For those people, 85% of the country, the system works pretty well. And you want us, that 85%, to just bend over grab our ankles and say "OKAY!" to breaking that system. To serve whom? Illegal aliens and 30 million other people, half of whom COULD have insurance but don't - BY CHOICE.
So, defend the bill.
Prag
Good luck with that!!
Hasn't anyone else noticed that most of the bitter opposition to national health care comes from the people who HAVE it.
Sorry, Cassandra, there is no implied or explicit right written into the Constitution promising health care for all. This health care "reform" bill is nothing but another entitlement, on top of Medicare, Medicaid and others, which the working tax-payer will be expected to finance.
It will not do a thing to slow the continual rise of health care costs. I am against it.
Cassie -
But, they are taking money out of my paycheck, EVERY ONE, to fund Medicare.
Cassandra You must work and pay to get social securty,and medicare FACT if you leach the systom you get SSI,and medicad threre is a difference please learn!!
Let me give you a little information you forgot. You had or have parents, Your parents need good medical help as they get older. STOP being so darn selfish because of every other rich a holes out there. You need the best insurance you can get to take care of your parents. I have never seen so many that down talk their parents. I'm in late 40's I have worked 6-7 days a week and 12 14 hour days busting my butt. And I am damn sure not going to let the government take away health care from the elderly, since I will be one some day. Unless my son goes full time to college he can not be on my insurance, and then its another 500 dollars to have it on him. So put the fate in your hand on your kids, If one gets sick and dieing and needed health insurance to take care of him, then it would be O i wish I had done this or that. Wise up!
The elderly have health coverage, it's called Medicare. It's broke, with trillions in unfunded liabilities - as a direct result of being government run. It also has billions and billions of waste, fraud and abuse - another testament to our fabulous nanny state government. AND, this bill COUNTS on that waste being there, or the funding falls apart!! Talk about creating a problem so you can create another problem while trying to fix the first problem
I don't even know what you're rambling point was, Steve. It doesn't even matter at this point.
10:00 Saturday evening, most normal citizens are going about their weekend activities while congress is conducting their sleezy cloak and dagger vote. Pathetic. If this is such an historical occasion Mrs. Pelosi, you would think it would be done under normal working hours in time for the six o'clock news. Ah, but we know that is what you fear, so hurry up and get this done tonight or no dinner for you my fellow congressmen. And why should they care, they won't have to eat the same food we will be forced to consume once they pass this!
as a direct result of being government run.
BS It's much more a result of deregulation. The same cause for many of our woes.
Most of them have it becausde they have busted their butts all of their lives to get it. I for one have no objection to providing decent healt care to anoyone willing to do something for it but this bill is just going to punish those that have paid their own way to provide for those that think by merely being an American they are entitled. Was change in health care needed. You bet. Tort reform and better regulation of the insurance industry could have gone a long way towards that change. Instead, this bill will eventually turn total control of the health industry to the government and we have plenty of example of how inept they are at that. Someone commented earlier about states eventually having to take of some of the cost. Unlike the fed, states are required to balance their budgets each year. Who will take the hit to maintain this health plan then?
Pat, Cloak and dagger? What better time would there have been to allow the most Americans the opportunity to watch the proceedings? I watched the vast majority of the debate and the vote. It wasn't pleasant. It was like watching a football game where the team losing by many touchdowns with only minutes to play, just can't help themselves calling needless time outs, throwing challenge flags and constantly pointing at the other team claiming foul play! Frankly the more I watched, the more I relished the trouncing the Republicans took. The ridiculous lies and deceptions the Republicans were spouting, only worked against them if someone was at all on the fence about how they would vote. Their ridiculous substitute bill just showed how out of touch they were. They made it perfectly clear who they stand for and who they're against. It's pretty obvious their main concern is to avoid creating, (or keeping alive), more potential Democratic voters!
If so many people were so concerned about this, they had the perfect opportunity to watch and hear both sides. The best part was, as the vote was almost over and the victory was assured, one brave Republican cast his vote with the Democrats! To use the football analogy again, it was like the winning team in that lopsided game, just trying to run out the clock only to accidentally score another touchdown. He might as well switch parties now because you can be sure that the rest of his fellow Republicans will reject him like he's got the plague! (assuming they don't have a public execution)
Some blue dog dems did vote against the bill. We will find out who, and rest assured they will pay a price too. They are now guaranteed stiff competition in their next primary.
It ain't over yet but this was a huge step. This is far from a perfect bill but it's a good start. We'll have to see how things develop in the Senate, but before it's over, don't be surprised if a few moderate Republicans desert the party line. This is the will of the people. The people that value their fellow Americans without bias. Those strongly against it don't even know what it is they're against other than Obama and Democrats. They don't even care what's really in the bill and what isn't. It really doesn't matter because regardless they will use "what if" scenarios to knock it.
1NewDay -
You have to be the most inept individual on the planet... this new health plan will tax the voters heavily, from ALL economic levels, and you will be limited in care received. The Government has yet to run any plan efficiently, ever.
FACTS:
NO ONE is the US is guaranteed or entitled to any coverage - you pay for it.
The people who are already insured will see a decline in their coverages AND an increase in premiums. Employers that furnish insurance coverage & employees WILL pay more for coverage, regardless of a government backed plan.
This whole concept of health care reform should have been put up to a vote by the voters, not by Congress alone.
For those who are declined healthcare coverage by insurers - life is tough, then you die. The declined coverage by insurers is a business practice, not something that should be changed by railroading the rest of society for a few peoples benefit.
Abortion issue? As a man, it doesn't concern me. How many abortions are performed as a result of rape/incest/woman's life in danger VS. the woman choosing to abort the child due to a baby being 'inconvenient' at this point in the woman's life? No numbers to back up the prior argument... and women who want abortion supported piss me off; try keeping your privates closed.
THIS WHOLE HEALTH-CARE REFORM ISSUE WILL CONTINUE TO DIVIDE THE COUNTRY & CAUSE DISCORD AMONG THE PEOPLE - this is by design from Washington; the oppressed & disgusted people will be too busy struggling to make ends meet & make insurance payments to see what other freedoms & choices will be removed by Obama & company -
And Pelosi still a witch - would someone please throw water on her so she'll melt?
No wonder you see yourself as a clown. I have rarely seen so much stupidity and misinformation concentrated in one post. Where to begin? First, last November we had what's called an election. Now, Homie, they count these votes, and the guy (or woman, as the case may be) who gets more of those little votes gets to be THE DECIDER. (Call your boyfriend down in Texas. He'll explain it to you.)
And who died and left fruit cakes like you to tell Americans that if they are declined coverage by an insurance Homie-clone and get sick, they just die? What a pathetic statement. What a poor excuse for a human being you are. What a bad American. Let me apply your reasoning to this dilemma -- If you don't like the way things are being run by the man we elected, drop dead or otherwise get the h@ll out. We can manage without you. Life is tough, and you're going to die anyway. (Oh, by the way, you're not at all clever. You think you are, but you're not. Just ignorant.)
Homie...
And for all you elitists, when those of us who are busting our butts while our health insurance goes up as much as 30% every year, while salaries go down to compensate, what are you going to do when we all die? Who is going to make all the fancy goods you buy - or do you jut get those in Chine and all the other places you favor more than this country and your fellow citizens?
To misquote Kermit, "It isn't easy being rich." Well, it is going to get a lot harder when there is no middle class down here to support your lavish lifestyle. Remember what you said - we all need to just get used to the idea that we need to die.
Hey Yankee Boy, Commie,
I contracted a terminal liver virus 30 years ago. I've been denied health care insurance. (preexisting condition) Even SSI says I qualify but they said no cause I can be re-vocationalized. When a person gets this disease, its in the blood and it can be passed on to other peoples blood. Would you hire me? I don't drink or smoke or do drugs. Will you take the chance? So. I make a living selling hand made crafts, I do myself. The Meds I need to take to just keep this Virus in check and no cure, cost me $1300.00 per month for six months. Who pays for that? Me! No Medicaid. Too costly. Now, I'm at stage 2 (bridging fibrosis) next to cancer. I may have 10 years. How is Obama-care going to hep me? If I HAVE to be on it, I won't be able to get my Meds. Govt. don't give meds to terminal patients. If the House bill passes the Senate, I'll be seeking Alternative medicene.
Well, I guess I just have to die with your majority vote or you can call your boy friend in Washington and see if you can change that for me. Where's your Heart now, Homie or is it Comie?
I don't want Govt. health care, period.
when you argument includes "rich a-holes" it's pretty clear that your view is not clear.
The "rich a-holes" already pay most of the bills here in America, and also employ most of us.
It's the Congressional "rich a-holes" that are damning this country.
No worries thought, 2010 is coming, and there will be change. Real change.
I have never been employed by a rich person. Rich people invest in "stock" not jobs. Companies do not create jobs they seek profit sometimes that requires additional people if cost effective.
Homie, Thanks for your support! Your "inept" use of the English language spouting ridiculous lies and "what if scenarios" and calling them facts, only supports my post. Beyond that it's totally irrelevant to what I wrote.
Based on your post, you're probably not very intelligent, so it's pretty unlikely that you're wealthy and immune to the health care woes of the middle class and the poor. Either way, misguided as you are, we won't hold your attitude against you and tell you that "life is tough" and let you die. No Homie, it's very likely that at some point in the future, you will personally benefit from the changes occurring now. And you'll probably be ungrateful. But that's OK, we realize that some people just have limited capabilities and we won't discriminate against you because of your weaknesses.
Cassandra, you absolutely no facts to back that up.
Just sent my idiot Congressb!tch a letter to vote no. Bet she follows Nancy Pig with a yes. If they vote this thru then vote them all out and get the damn thing repealed.
#15 - Sat Nov 7, 2009 8:13 AM ESTYou are 100% correct Bob. Since Obama care will not go into effect until after the 2012 election, any of our Congressional representatives who vote for this Marxist bill will be voted out with time to repeal this bill before it can cause it's economic damage and wide scale government dependency.
Well, I sent her a letter to vote yes. I guess we cancel each other out.
To all of you poor misguided, selfish pigs who can only think of yourselves, I say this is a great day in American history. Hopefully there will be more such days on the march toward real health care reform and the end of insurance companies control over who lives and dies. They have literally sucked the life blood out of too many Americans.
Hopefully there will be more such days on the march toward real health care reform and the end of insurance companies control over who lives and dies
Absolutely, Hallelujah!
To all you freeloaders, moochers, and leaches... Today must be a great day!
Jim Watkins:
You think the insurance companys have sucked American dry? You havent seen anything yet. Wait until the heavy hand reaches into your pocket, its already in mine and I dont like it.
will you be able in 2010 to vote them out !!!
Jim Watkins - quote
"Hopefully there will be more such days on the march toward real health care reform and the end of insurance companies control over who lives and dies."
They obviously missed calling your number...
If not then viva revolution! TO nasty pilhead and brainless red from nevada! OK, Just pretend im using a cheesy german accent! This is from a old movie. A riot is a terrible ting! Und its high tine we had one!LOL! Lots of luck on that hell care crap!
FrankyZ, B.Hardy,
Your comments don't come as any surprise to me. You are part of the poorly informed people who get targeted by the insurance lobby and their right wing cohorts for their propaganda. You look at social advances and change as take aways and give aways. If you don't get what you perceive as yours immediately, there is something wrong with the program. Me, on the other hand, have got mine and I don't mind sharing with others less fortunate. I don't want to see someone who has a little something lose it all because they or someone in their family gets sick, or they lose their job. I even include you two selfish individuals in that. Some day even you two will be thankful for what has just occurred and sing the praises of a caring congress
Jim....
You have exemplified the problem here most eloquently. In the early days of this country, when a neighbor's barn burned. everyone, even people who did not know the individual family, came and brought food, and helped rebuild the barn. Now, there are far too many people who feel like if your barn burns, it must be because you are some kind of worthless freeloader, and they can't be bothered to give you a can of beans, much less help you rebuild anything, because you must have deserved that cancer, or that auto accident or whatever.
These are the elitists in our ADD, instant gratification, self-centered society. They truly believe everything they have came to them with no help from anyone else - their car made itself magically, the groceries, clothes, and big flat screen TVs make themselves, if they have an education, their teachers were probably automons who don't require any pay, much less gratitude, and as another poster, pointed, out, if you are lower on the food chain than they are, and you get sick, you just need to accept it and die.
Right now, fewer and fewer people are doing more and more work to just supply these at the top with their "entitlements". But I wonder what they will do when these peope too finally just give up and die? Maybe their wishes for those still locked in the battle to stay in the middle class won't seem quite so inconsequential then.
Jim Watkins,
I am far from a target of the "mean and nasty" insurance companys and do not have time to buy into anybodys propaganda. I dont want or need any of this from the government.
I dont want any "instant gratification" that you have spoken of, I have worked for everything I have.
Anybody who does not, with an open mind, question everything that this government does has a serious problem. Their intentions are not what we may think they are. Lets go back to the old question of, "Will members of the Congress give up their insurance and move to the public option?" I think not.
As soon as we all wake up and blow away the smoke and look in the mirrors, we will see a person that should be ashamed of, letting the government take away our freedoms.
Why the fee if you dont have insurance? What ever happened to personal responsibility? If I dont want insurance and get sick, then I, and only I, should bear the consequences of my decision. This is another small step toward our ever shrinking liberty. We should all be ashamed for letting this happen.
Hey Jim, I guess i am one of those "poor misguided, selfish pigs who can only think of yourselves", and it's funny how you can spew your hate while also being one of us.
Personally I pay more than 50% of every dollar I earn to some form of government. I don't own a home, am self employed, just turned 50, and still have way less than $50K in my retirement account.
On top of my tax contribution, I help our kids as much as I can, support a few orphans through Compassion Intl, and I work 12-14 hours a day, currently in a new business that I am bootstrapping as I have no guaranteed salary.
You may want to re-think your hate and judgment, cause I would guess that many of us who don't trust our President or our Federal Government are somewhat like me.
B.Hardy,
Your response gives an indication of your ignorance on this subject. Many in congress already have a "public option plan", which is subsidized with your tax dollars. In refusing to support health care reform some of those members are trying to keep you from getting the same type of plan for yourself.
And this theme of loss of freedoms, the teabaggers talk about, is a bunch of nonsense. Your freedoms were more in jeopardy under Bush than today and yet you didn't recognize that fact. The President and Democratic congress are trying to give you and all Americans something which will make you more physically and economically secure but you just refuse to understand and appreciate that.
Paul F,
You said, "Personally I pay more than 50% of every dollar I earn to some form of government. I don't own a home, am self employed, just turned 50"
I am having a little trouble understanding why you are paying that amount. Why don't you break that out for us? Currently we are still under the Bush tax system that was developed about 7-8 years ago. I would suggest you talk to a good tax attorney.
I believe we are all being a little premature with our praise or condemnation of the House bill. You will see politicians on both sides of that imaginary line of difference "dithering" on a final vote. I found it amusing last night that prior to the vote one by one they were standing up giving a 2-3 minute photo opt some related to the vote some not to be sent to their home districts.
The most amusing of all were the commercials being run by the large insurance companies that had already changed their message prior to the vote asking you to contact your Senators to block the reform. They knew the House was going to pass it.
Did Lieberman and Fox make a talking engagement for today after the vote last night or was it already planned?
The big insurance companies are very much involved in what is going on and will spend what ever it takes to keep us divided as Democrats and Republicans. Their biggest fear is that we look at the situation as Americans. Because if we look at them through American eyes rather than party eyes we may not like what we see.
Very well said, Roger.
Roger - stick to medicine and leave the the taxes to the accountants. No, I'm not an accountant, but have a business degree.
Social Security / medicare 15.3% of income
Federal Taxes 0% - 39+% - going to be 45% soon.
State income Tax 0 - 11% tax
Sales Tax 0 - 7.5%
Local Wage tax 0 - 5%
Real estate tax can work out to be 3 - 6% of your wages.
If you rent you still pay property tax hidden in your rent
Utility taxes
Tax on motor vehicle registration
Gasoline Tax
Duties and Tariffs on imported goods
If you have a business there can be an inventory tax.
This does not include the taxes paid by corporations for all of the above that are passed on to you!
At 50,000 Taxible just himself, he could easily be paying at least 46% in my state and city, and mine is not too expensive yet.
Ace, if the elderly opted out of Medicare, we would make a fortune, even if we gave them all their money back. And we would wish them all the luck in the world in finding insurance companies that would cover them.
#18 - Sat Nov 7, 2009 8:16 AM ESTHey cassandra, I am still waiting for an answer - see 14.1. Guess you don't have one!
Bob,
Who pays for your insurance? As an employer not an employee you better be glad people like me don't have the same belief on others as you. I could save a million dollars a year by eliminating health insurance for my employees and their family.
Let me guess you are going to say you are self insured and walk three miles to work every day uphill both ways.
You see Bob I work in the private sector that does not cover insurance after retirement. That means we are going to have to work until we can draw Medicare just to protect what we worked our entire lives for.
My wife had breast cancer 3 years ago and to date is in remission but what would insurance cost for her if she ever leaves our group plan? Better yet which one of these fine insurance companies that you are praising cover her?
Is she what you are calling a "leach" in the 14.1 post you seem to be so proud of? She is a MSN in the OR unit and pays a lot of taxes Bob. Taxes that pay for those with Government ,State, and City, paid health care and retirements that seem to be those objecting the most to a public option. They are afraid they will have to pay back some of our tax money. How many of the Congress that are so against the option are saying they will opt out of theirs? Name one that pays their own.
The poor and disabled are covered by Medicaid, the elderly are covered by Medicare, it is those trying to keep their head above water that are not covered.
So to hell with the elderly huh? You all act as if none of them paid into the system ? How the hell do you think the money (that goverment has dug into time and time again) got there to begin with?? It didn't come from the one's who didn't pay into it!
No, I don't like paying into it but you all act as if you will never get old!! Got new's for ya. You will! Do you think they are going to take care of all of us when you are old? LOL! :( No Way.. This Bill is wrong for everyone.
My Mother is 75 raised 5 children is a retired WAC! ( Women's Army Corp)& worked another 30 yr's. She is crippled and I take care of her, what she get's won't pay to feed a bird. Yes she paid into it all the time she did work! If you worked you paid! BTW:
Nightshift< Hillary worked on this for 8 yr's before Bush had his 8. Do you see a problem here in sending this whipped up, hard drive quick fix bill up to pass when 16 tear's couldn't do it and now they have done it in 7 month's??? Not me!
Scott, you make me sick! In God We Trust!!
Bob...
The answer to your #14.1 pot is really quite apparent. You who are fortunate enough to now be among the elitist in this country have forgotten that there is a class just below you and they are the ones taking the hits here. You are right - you have yours. In the old days, if your neighbor's barn burned down, you would be the one who would not be offering to help rebuild it. That is your right.
It is also your right not to call the police or fire orEMTs, if you have an emergency, since that is paid with oart of my tax dollars. Also, please don't use any of the public streets, because I don't think your share covers much more than an occasional crosswalk. Do not use public transportation, public buildings or even emergency rooms, since that costs me also, and I can't afford you. I would rather help those who are more like me, and realize that in a collective community, we all need to help each other, especially when times grow bad.
Since you believe that what is yours is yours, I wold suggest you take your largess and buy yourself an island where you can use your copious resources to support yourself and your family in the fashion to which you believe you are entitled. And other than scaring of an occasional wildlife intruder, you will have life exactly as you want it, and it will also do wonders for your blood pressure.
the only good news about this bill passing is that it will hasten the revolution that is going to over turn this fascist b.s. and get this country back to it founding base.
no one can argue that govt programs have driven this country to bankruptcy. the govt , our govt, is broke.
no person, family, county, state, or country can survive with increasing debt. see iceland. how is this debt going to be paid off? it cant be.
tell me, show me how, with real math. see u s debt . org.
#19 - Sat Nov 7, 2009 8:18 AM ESTThe Congress will have a Great chance to Vote themselves out of office today. All they have to do is vote for this health Care Bill.
We need reform but this Bill is not the way to do that.
Go ahead , vote against the American People Today. We Will have our chance to vote and You can bet your Ass many of you will Join the unemployment Line with the thousands of others. Which is what you should be looking at instead of taking more power away from the American People and concentrating it is Congress.
#20 - Sat Nov 7, 2009 8:20 AM ESTHealth care reform along with cap and trade will make this country nearly impossible to survive in with any quality of life unless you're rich. The staggering costs of this blind health care mission doesn't even register to the average person. The money will come from a lot of people and companies who are going to be extremely upset when the reality strikes their wallet's and well being. There will be more industry leaving the country because of cap and trade, you can bet on it. With a tax base that has been and is still rapidly shrinking, paying for this reform is going to be a tailspin at best. All government run programs are wasteful, out of proportion, and in-efficient money sucking buracracies at best. Name me just one that is efficient and self supporting and not mired in waste.
#21 - Sat Nov 7, 2009 8:22 AM ESTThank you for asking, Paul. A very efficient, self-supporting and even popular program is the Veterans Administration home loan guarantee. It created the middle class suburb after World War II and has a very low foreclosure rate of 5 percent, making it a win-win situation all around. The same goes for the college tuition provided by the same VA, under the same GI Bill of Rights.
#22 - Sat Nov 7, 2009 8:25 AM ESTtell me the foreclosure rate for A.C.O.R.N. "backed" housing loans.
or fannie mac.......... or freddie mac............
the v.a. loans were/are made to veterans. people of responsibility and accountability.
not gimmie gimmie gimmie , i want mine, govt teat worshipers...........
Nice Cassie. So you have the figure's available for the total operational costs of these programs for the 09 year then? Please post them.
Yeah, I am sure the republicans would like to make Americans think they are the majority but the majority who voted Obama into office know the truth.
This is not OBAMACARE. it is Care for the majority who voted for him to do this very thing. Reform Healthcare. The majority wants and in this country, Majority RULES!
These are the people who understand what the nation is going through and this is what they want.
The other side doesn't want it. Ok GET OUT OF THE WAY FOR THOSE WHO DO!
Don 't use it, Keep your plan, Keep your insurance, Keep on living your life, but don't you dare get in the way of those who do need it.
#23 - Sat Nov 7, 2009 8:26 AM ESTHey Rod 684117 even in your post you said let them who want get it but if you don't then don't but in this post you do not have freedom of choice what if you do not belive gov. heatlh care or the pritave insurance you lose your right to choice. and the last indepenet polls say the people do not want this. Obama care is wrong this bill has no heatlh care reform this a money maker for the gov. and the insurance thats all the have no cost control on drug co. or cost control on doc. or hospital or cost control on lawsuit there none of that in this bill
GET OUT OF THE WAY FOR THOSE THAT DO. We will be glad to,when the Gov. stops taking my taxes to pay for this deadbeat FREE RIDE.Your health care is YOUR RESPONSIBITLY.not mine.
Rod...there are many(moderates and independents) that voted for Obama are starting to realize what a big mistake they made..period...
I believe this bill will pass, which only goes to show how divided this country is...it is not about passing a good and sane Health Care Reform Bill anymore if it ever was...and yes i have been reading as much of the bills as I could in the past few months and you can tell it was written by a bunch of lawyers...it leaves so much open to interpretation..the heavily thumbed MF's that already know how to steal from the government will be given another feedbag...
btw Pelosi Lies...or she has told herself the lie so many times she actually believes it...
Yeah, I am sure the republicans would like to make Americans think they are the majority but the majority who voted Obama into office know the truth.
Yeah, the majority now know's they F'd up big time.
Get out of the way you say? This is what America wants? Okay, you can have unlimited free healthcare but don't touch my f__king wages that I work my ass off for. If you choose not to work then so be it, but nothing comes for free you idiot. If everyone sat on there ass no one would have healthcare. Where do you think our government gets the funds for foodstamps, healthcare, social security? Yeah exactly! THE WORKING CLASS. Not the illegals, crack-heads, and the lazy.
amen
The whole point of the bill is to basically force insurance companies to compete, which means they won't deny so many thousands of people like they have been for years. I know many people that don't have any health care, not because they are lazy, but because they were denied, their workplace does not offer benefits, they have recently been laid off due to the economy, or they simply can't afford the ridiculous $500 to $1000 a month for such LIMITED coverage for their family. Even most people who have health insurance will be denied for care or completely dropped when something catastrophic happens, because medical directors jobs are to find any reason NOT to pay for care. I mean think about it the more insurance companies DONT have to pay for care, the more money they keep in their pocket. So I think this bill will force them to finally live up to their promises.
By the way for those that like their insurance companies, keep it, this bill doesn't apply to you. Stop whining. This is for people who don't want to keep their insurance companies or need an alternative.
Obama cannot win without the independent vote and he has lost it....people come to this country for freedom; they leave countries with dictators and several legal immigrants can see this man wants to be a dictator.....please do not forget that Obama backed the unseated dictator wanna be in Honduras...what president of ourcountry has every backed dictatorship.....Obama even cut off the aid to Honduras.....people, they were going by their constitution which stated l term for presidents, no more than l term ever and Obama supported the dictator wanna be....what the hell does that tell you...
The majority does not want this and it is socialism you want health care pay for it yourself im not responsile for you.I dont expect anyone to pay for me and if i did that would make me a dead beat like you smuck.
Rod - this reform will drive up costs FOR ALL - even for those who have existing coverage. Your magic man in the White House is pushing this purely to gain more Dem voters - this is obvious - he doesn't give a flying F over your health...
Everybody here is discussiong things like we have a choice. They are doing this and we will have to live with it.
They are rulers not public servants. Get the difference staright.
Don't get in the way of those who need it? What about if I'm paying for it? The right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and the right to government-guaranteed food, housing, and health care are mutually exclusive. The latter requires some to sacrifice the former for others. It's unfortunate that some would frame this argument in normative terms when all they're doing is permitting the government to use its monopoly of force to coerce a wealth transfer. What's particularly disconcerting is that such a rearranging of the economic pie decreases the size of the pie itself as incentives are changed. Command economies don't work, and we've got a lot of history to back that up. When will we learn?
My wife has worked in the medical field for many years and for a few of those she was employed as the Utilization Review Coordinator. This was in 1985 so for those of you that think DRG (diagnostic related group) is some new term coined by this administration, you are wrong. The DRG is a mechanism by which the physician negotiates for himself or organization with insurance companies or in the case of the government for medicare and Medicaid to establish what reimbursements they will receive for the patients diagnosis. This means, the amount they will receive based on the diagnosis. A gallbladder diagnosis may merit a reimbursement of an amount of money that may or may not cover the physicians charges. If it does not cover the charges, the doctor is powerless to recoup anything from the patient beyond the copay and deductible. The universal plan will undoubtedly remain the same and it is unlikely that anyone will be able to negotiate with the government to set charges for various treatments. Currently, to offset the losses incurred by doctors and hospitals, premiums paid by employers and employees go up. This will change since the government will have a monopoly over health care and eventually everyone will be covered by some form of universal health care. Many doctors have voiced their opposition to this plan (contrary to the AMA support of it) and have indicated their lack of confidence at being able to continue in practice. With fewer doctors, you would more likely be seeing a physicians assistant or nurse practitioner and only in the most critical of cases a doctor. There is no question that costs are high and that many lack for decent health care. This plan at best maintains the status quot and at worst will only diminish quality of care and lead to an even greater financial dilemma for this country.
1ofmany, you are so right. When the government has a monopsony over the purchase of health care, they will pay less than the market clearing price. Those are price caps, not cost cuts, and it's what causes shortages every time. People in decent health won't realize there are shortages until they get really sick, but the number of people who are gravely ill at any time isn't sufficient to change things politically. They have no voice. You think people are going without care now? Wait and see, or better yet, take a very close look at how long people wait in other countries.
The big problem is that people want to paint you as immoral for not wanting to yield more power to the government. Giving the government power seldom leads to good things. Forcing someone to surrender their money to one party for the benefit of a third isn't just, moral, or even efficient.
Which ever way it passes, It still fattens the pockets of the insurance companies and puts the people who desperately need it in the same situation!
#24 - Sat Nov 7, 2009 8:27 AM ESTIt amazes me that we want to spend so much time, effort, and tax dollars on health INSURANCE, when we should be focusing on health CARE. They are not the same. One does not equal the other.
Why do we use insurance to pay for all of our doctor and hospital visits?
Families pay a fortune for health insurance, but most get relatively little health care. Colds, shots, checkup. They buy this product, though for the catastrophe, the same reason they buy auto and homeowners insurance.
The problem is 'health insurance' is a mutant creature that has no resemblance to insurance. If we used it as we use homeowners and auto insurance it would be affordable. Use it for the catastrophic events that statistically won't happen to you or most people.
Turn the rest into transactions between you and your doctor or hospital, removing untold layers of cost and giving you some measure of control. I believe that if doctors and hospitals were able to compete in a free market, 'basic' (the vast majority of healthcare events) services such as those that most general practioners deal with almost exclusively would cost significantly less.
I promise you this, if a hospital sent me a bill that included $12 aspirin and $150 paper booties, I'd tell them where they can stick it. I'd tell them that they can take 50 cents for that aspirin and like it or I'll go to St Gertrude's across town that only charges $5 for an aspirin, or Luke's who has a coupon for 'buy 2 aspirins, get one free.'
As it stands, I don't see the bill until my insurance company already sent the check.
You know if you end up needing knee surgery, it's going to cost you something. But if you are in the position to shop, you can have some control over it. And yes, you might have to make payments on it or tap some savings. You'd have to do it if your transmission blew or you need new gutters. Yeah, it sucks. Welcome to life.
Capitalism. Be a consumer. Shop, bargain, buy what you need and can afford and if needed, vote with your feet. Take control of your health, your health care, your health care costs, and your health care dollars.
Don't give it to someone else who has demonstrated that they will still pay $12 for that aspirin.
There will always be people who can't/won't pay for their own healthcare. If you want me to cheerfully open my wallet to help, you stand a much better chance with $1 paper booties than $150 paper booties.
SAY IT WITH ME!
GET THE PEOPLE HEALTH CARE (this bill does not do that)
Save the insurance for the purpose for which it is designed.
It won't be painless to turn the ship around, but wouldn't it be great to go health insurance shopping no different than home owners or auto?
Nightshift,
You are exactly right! My family carries a high deductable insurance and we pay out of our pocket for most meds and doctor visits. We don't go to the doctor each time someone's nose runs, or we sneeze or cough! In the long run it is a lot cheaper than paying the full coverage premiums. If I need knee surgery I'm still covered. The problem is that most people expect insurance to pay for everything and most people go to the doctor way too often!
Health insurance should play for Health care when you really need it! It should be used like auto or home insurance, if this were the case we'd all be able to afford insurance.
Thanks for the breath of sanity!
People don't want health care "insurance" they want SOMEONE ELSE to pay for everything! That a bill like this is being voted on shows what hypocrites the Democratic Party is!
I agree with you 100%. The insurance premiums for healthcare coverage at my company went up 42% this year and the deductible was increased from $1,000.00 to $5,000.00. I had to opt out. The coverage costs more than my mortgage.
Having worked in the healthcare field, the whole medical services, IMO, is a scam. When was the last time you went to a doctor for a physical and they said "You're in good shape and don't need to come back for a year"? It never or rarely happens. They say, "Well, let's run some tests to check _____— (fill in the blank). Then it's another test, then another. Each test requires you to come back to the doctor's office for interpretation. Each office visit requires more money. Doctors are running businesses and need a certain number of consistent patients to cover the business costs.
If you don't have insurance coverage you can negotiate the costs of services to the same rate that Medicare pays to the doctor. Most people don't know this and even if the did would feel uncomfortable negotiating their rates.
People need to take more control over their own health and not blindly put themselves in the care of someone else who may not have your best interest in mind.
Wanda-358181I do believe that you had better find a new doctor, I have had cancer and my doctor told me this pass summer he did not need to see me anymore just keep doing what I have been doing for the pass 9 years and that I should live to be 100. I have allot living too if he is right. I do see a family doctor once a year just for a check-up which takes about 15 minutes of their time and mine.
Has everyone wrote or emailed their congressmen/women and told them how they feel? I encourage everyone to let them know how you feel. I have also included a little reminder that their vote will determine whether they have a job in the next elections.
One other note... When I emailed my senator I noticed that he is not taking emails from anyone other than the constituents in his district. What is up with that? They don't want to hear opinions from anyone outside their districts yet they take campaign contributions from out of state contributors?????
#25 - Sat Nov 7, 2009 8:30 AM ESTYou must not have ever contacted a Senator or Congressperson before. They all are limited to their constituents. That doesn't stop them from invading the airwaves though!!!
Or taking campaign funding from contributor's outside their districts. Answer that riddle for me Gramps. I see you skipped over that question...
I didn't skip over rthe question. I thought it was common knowledge. Look at all the campaign contributions by insurance co's to lawmakers!!!
I wrote them all, first thing this morning.
Everyone, do the same.
How many times do you think you can contact them before they ignore you? I can tell you. I did this for 2 weeks everyday, 5 times a day, got form type answers for 1 week than nothing. These officials are not listening to us period. The only way they are going to listen is when we fire them in the next election. We all agree that we need health care reform just not what is in the this monster bill. If you haven't read you should. I am on page 997 and it is not good for us. Have you thought about the money that we are going to paying in to this starting right away without services for 2 or 3 years? It is going to be open season on it and do you think the government is going to let sit there? If you do I have some land in FL I will sell you cheap. As always just my opinion.
Ya'll have been brainwashed.
vote them all out...
They are probably so inundated with emails and phone calls on this issue that their staff can't read them all. Why would it bother you that a rep is only taking emails from his own constituents. Your threat will not affect someone you cannot vote for. They answer only to their own constituency. I'm sure if you donate $25,00 to the campaign of a rep outside of your district, s/he will be more than happy to take your emails.
Ellie May
Senators & Congressmen don't give a @!$%# what you or anyone else thinks unless you can vote for them or grease their pockets with cash.
Oh, Ellie May, go back to school. Gramps is right. The rules of BOTH the house and the Senate forbid the member from corresponding with those other than his or her own constituents. Why? Well, for one, when districts are re-drawn after each census, they don't want members already having built up a political base with those not in their current district, should the member chose to run in the new one. But that's a different story. Now leadership in the House is excepted. So, if you'd like to vent against the Speaker, there is a link on her Congressional site that takes you to a different email address for the general public. It's not your fault you don't know this stuff. They don't teach in schools anymore. Republicans cut the funding, and you're the child who got left behind.
CAN'T stand NANCY Pelosi !!!
They no longer listen to us, they are to busy kissing Obama'a A S S
Can't wait until 2010 & 2012
You're in Easy Mode. If you prefer, you can use XHTML Mode instead. |
Follow msnbc.com politics to get e-mail or watchlist alerts whenever new content is published, or subscribe via RSS:
Popular Articles & Seeds 
Republicans blast 'bait and switch' health billSenator cements role at heart of debateObama to reveal Afghan decision 'within days'Debt-hit U.S. faces surge in interest paymentsEthics panel clears Sen. Burris of wrongdoingHealth bill revives abortion groups'I enjoyed' Palin memoir, Sen. McCain saysObama welcomes Indian prime minister
Log In | Register
Comment collapsed by the community
Start Tracking
Stop Tracking
