This plan is changing so much and so frequently when the time comes to vote on it, nobody will have any idea what they’re voting on. That won’t faze Obama though as he’ll sign anything that shows up on his desk and call it a victory.

The scrambling to get this abomination passed borders on the hysterical which makes one wonder what the real reason is for passing this bill as quickly as possible, especially since it apparently won’t kick in for 4 years.

Possibly they want this passed as soon as possible in the hope the people won’t remember it come election time especially since it won’t kick in for 4 years.

They never do! Nobody read the Patriot Act either!

The currently proposed bill has little to do with the original overhaul notions: single-payer, universal coverage, with a public option.

Now, it is little more than a diluted giveaway to insurance companies.

I resent that Obama has not clearly and forcefully addressed the nation to usher in true reform. I have no clue where he stands on the issue anymore.

Aren't these people in DC suppose to represent us? Whatever happened to that!

What's bothering me is the rush to get this thing passed before some self-imposed deadline of Christmas.

I don't care if they have to scrap the whole thing, start from scratch and work on it til next Xmas, as long as they do it right.

Change the way doctors are paid. Make it so people can not be denied or cancelled from coverage. AND make all members of Congress subject to the same system they are going to present to us.

Many people give the government too much credit. They view the government as some great organization that has all the solutions. It is just a group of people with their own opinions and ideas split into two different parties who tend to disagree on 95% of the issues. The president of the United States is just a man, he is not God with all the answers and should not be viewed as such. I think many of us have forgotten who to look to when it comes to having the right answers. That would be God. For those who do not believe in him, sorry, but this country and the government were set up based on religious principles and God was and is very much a part of this country. Is "In God We Trust" just a saying, or do we truly believe it? "One Nation under God" Again, politicians are just regular people like you and me (some more educated than others) with their own opinions on how things should be ran in this country. Just because many have law degrees or degrees in political science does not make them experts on what is best for you and me. I do believe the government that was set up with it's three branches along with the checks and balances was inspired and has helped us become the most powerful and influencial nation in the world. However, when we fill the government with people who are full of corruption, greed, selfishness, and people who only look to themselves, or worse, their party for the answers, then the government is no longer a tool that can be used for the good of the people. We can debate topics until we are blue in the face, and in logic, even win arguements that are in fact NOT TRUE. However, it all comes down to TRUTH. Please remember where TRUTH comes from, and it is not uninspired politicians who only looks to their own wisdom.

To go along with my comment above. For those in favor of this bill, please tell me how you think that a government that has $12 Trillion in debt and just approved by congress to go into $14 Trillion in debt is capable of helping our Healthcare situation. They have been incompetant and incapable of successfully running the following programs that lose billions of dollars every year: The Postal Service, AMTRAK, Medicare (although liked by many Americans, WE ARE LOSING BILLIONS off this program), Medicaid, Social Security, and not to mention the BILLIONS spent on waste. I do have a degree in Healthcare Administration and although I do believe Healthcare reform is necessary due to skyrocketing costs. Having the government (Power Hungry Politicians) try to resolve this issue is not the right answer considering their track record and corruption, greed, selfishness, and party biases rather than just doing what is right for you and I.

One last thing, how is it that only 47% of the people of this nation oppose this bill when 80% of the people voting on this MSNBC (a very liberal and biased organization) poll are against this? Just pointing out the facts and the TRUTH.

I agree 100% slow and steady wins the race. No quick fixes, please.

And more importantly if Congress and the President don't have to use the plan then it shouldn't go through. Government officials should not be exempt from any social plans like Social Security or taxes or anything else the average American has to pay.

The most disturbing thing to me (and there are plenty of things about this that disturb me) is that the people pushing this through are specifically exempt from it! Helloooo warning signs! Helloooo class-system.

Obviously this isn't about health care reform. They way they are pushing it through so fast and changing whatever they have to to make it pass, tells me that this is about whatever is happening behind the scenes, whatever the REAL reason is that we don't know about.

How can we believe anything that they say about this bill. If it is a good bill for the American people then explain why it doesn't apply to them if you can.

Send Obama a bill that phases out medicare, medicade & social security over the next 20 years & opens up the country to free market health insurance & stop blaming business people & relize it's business people that will put this country back to work allowing us to get insurance etc..

If Obama would use his speaking skills to let everyone know that governments going to pull back & get out of the way (keep tax rates low or pass the FAIR TAX) this economy would turn around & he would get a whole new set of followers. These supporters will be real Americans who get stuff done & don't complain about having to work hard to do it.

He would get some violent protest from the folks on the far left but the hard working good folks would have his back as long as he keeps his word & does'nt double cross us.

Mr. Obama you could be at a cross roads in your life as president & as a politician.

Chose your path wisely.

Many of us are still awaiting the full transparency re. healthcare reform that candidate Obama promised the public. Backroom politics and influence peddling - unseen by the American public - is shaping the eventual vote.

Makes no difference what the majority of Americans being represented feel about the sloppy healthcare package - which varies from day to day - more than the changes to our entire culture that is being decimated at the hands of a few.

A headstrong rookie president with a merry band bent on forging a new direction is going to destroy everything achieved in the past. Help all of us!

Unions without CHOICE, Dem's Ginnie Pigs

Health Care Reform has lacked CHOICE from the beginning. Americans demand choice, even if the selection is not to participate.

The Democratic Party has been on a fast track, towards passing of a bill, that lacks true cost reduction for the consumer. Government sponsored health care, is exactly what the Bible's 'Book Of Revelation (666)' has warned believers to be on guard against.

Unions over the past twenty years, have been the Democratic Party's Ginnie Pigs, on testing the resistance, against Big Brother/The Man. Today's Union, is lead by professional Democrats, and any resistance against Big Brother control, has been weeded out, with buy-outs, or outright abuse.

Big Union Fat Cats are the only ones advocating public option, but their pleas are falling on deaf Democratic ears. In the politics of 'Helter Skelter', Today's Unions have been sacrificed, because the lines between GOP and DNC have been blurred to the point of non-recognition. President Osame!

The time has come for the Ginnie Pigs' break-out, at the expense of the deceitful DNC. The public polls are showing that we still have the power of the vote, and Big DNC/Government is still underestimating the allegiance of their puppet, Big Union Bosses. Resist Senator Roland Burris!

The Human Body, is not an automobile, and we demand the CHOICE; in not participating in FORCED (pseudo) Health Care Reform!

I think most everyone wants some kind of reform, the problem is the reform they are offering comes with an additional 2000 pages of bs. Obviously it's not a good bill or they wouldn't be bribing and threatening congressmen to sign it. Why can't they just keep it simple, start slowly with things like Tort reform, insurance reform, and fixing the current Medicare/Medicaid programs. Then I think a lot more people would show their support for a health care bill.

When it is public knowledge that the state of Louisiana sold out and signed on for a mere $300,000,000, and now there are rumors that the White House has threatened the state of Nebraska that if they don't sign on they will put Offutt Air Force Base on the closure list, it just makes people think the worst about our leaders. They are supposed to be on our side, not threatening our jobs and our security. They are supposed to be there to HELP not hurt.

I stand behind the President, but this overhaul was the right fight at the wrong time. If it's not going to accomplish its objectives of loosening the insurance companies' stranglehold on healthcare and reducing costs, it shouldn't happen, and President Obama has to make the choice to scrap the idea rather than letting it turn into bad law and strengthen the monopolies it was designed to undermine. The righties got out front with fear and lies, and, as usual, a shocking percentage of the ignorant public bought it ("death panels?" Seriously?). Sometimes you have to insist on doing the right thing, and admit defeat by the bad guys, rather than choking it down and calling it victory. Lose the battle and focus on winning the war

"something" is goign to pass and too little it better than too much if it starts the path toward reform.

i'm happy to see the moderate dems. doing the GOP's job, once again... balance.

for the GOP, this was never about accomplishing, just obstructing. "kill the bill." the short list of repetitive posters on this forum are a sad bunch of geriatrics and un-employed trailer trash... the Internet is an amazing thing! now these relics of ignorance and hate have a voice. lol.

"The fact that almost nobody in Congress has read the whole thing cover to cover is disturbing... "

It ought to be more than disturbing. Anyone who would vote FOR this bill without reading it needs to have a recall petititon started now...and everyone ought to write, call, fax, and tell your Congressmen and Representatives to READ the bill, digest it, do it right, not just VOTE because their party puppets want them to.

I'm not a Democrat nor a Repubulican but voting on this bill without reading it, without understanding it, and from what I understand costs so much it will bankrupt this country, to me is tantamount to treason...

Benjamin Franklin said it best, "two wolves and a sheep vote on what they want for dinner, and a well armed sheep protesting the vote?" The tea parties are growing. Those who think they are going to force their ideas on Americans might well remember what happened to the British...maybe your House and Senate members need to learn what it means to work for a living and having to live within their means? Just a thought.

This bill isnt about "Caring for anyone" it is about CONTROL. It is time for the States to retake via the 10th Amendment, what the Constitution gave them..... one Lawsuit at a time.

The last Independent poll I saw had 36% for Health Care Reform and 64% against.

the fact is the fines, fees and insurance requirement start 4 years before any benefit is available. yes i guess you can call it deficet neutral for now sice they will collect for years before anything is paid out

More sneaking around and bribery. Votes in the middle of the night with no news coverage and ignoring the will of the people. Their are many well known leaders that would be highly impressed and envious of this scam.

Hitler, Pol pot, Stalin, well, from the looks of the stats in this poll I am preaching to the faithful. The United States government is out of control.

they've already taken the extra mile and 100 more, we clearly have a government that no longer listens to the people. they are nothing more then self serving individuals that could care less. The bush administration was bad enough but this new administration will take everything we have away and give us back socialism. welcome to the new ussr. fortunately we an boot a bunch of em out in 2010 and the rest in 2012. thats if the people finally have the guts to face the most corrupt body of government in the history of this great country

If this bill does not cover pre-exisiting conditions and we have to purchase health care or pay a Fine or Penalty then this bill is Dead as for as I am concerned.

What are these Idiots thinking.

This is not Obama's Bill this is the Bill that the Dems and Reps have come up with. Both of these out of controlParties need to be thrown out of office.

i couldnt agree with you more vfw. i too am a member btw. i look to a famous quote of Thomas jefferson "When people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty". I believe we are in the tyranny stage, throw them all out and take back what is ours. that is what the next 2 elections ought to be about, taking back the government and electing people that are true to the country and it's people not to special interest groups and lining their own pockets. fortunately i think the people of this country are starting to finally wake up to the travesty we call our government and will actually start taking steps to throw the bums out. all of them, there isn't an honest politician in the mix.

I believe that there needs to be a program that enables every American Citizen to obtain affordable health coverage. The US Manufacturing company I work for supplies it. But the Chinese goods we compete against don't have that cost in thier product sell price.

Why not tariff imports and use that money to put forein goods on an even playing field. This will help fund our health care and put people back to work here at the same time through domestic profits. When our imports/exports finally balance we can reduce the tariff and shift it to business here to assist in paying for the program.

Simply taxing our struggling businesses will put them under more pressure and will not help people get back to work so they can earn wages, and afford coverage. And a home.

"The Dems and Reps" ; VFW? Are you totally uninformed or just mindlessly based? Not to say it couldn't be both.

The GOP has been totally shut out of this process, and will vote against this bill, as was the case in the House. This is wholly a Democrat bill.

You must have missed it.

Read Harrison Bergeron... THAT speaks volumes! We're headed there now....

dizzykat, Medicare is going broke.... "Medicare for all" (as you called it) will most CERTAINLY break the country. Besides, the main souce of payment for this new "medicare for all" is the CURRENT MEDICARE PLAN!

We DO need healthcare reform. People need to be able to buy affordable insurance... They need to be able to buy coverage if they have pre-existing conditions. There needs to be competition among coverage providers. This plan being proposed, however, is NOT about healthcare reform. It's about advancing liberal socialism by putting the government in charge of more and more of our country. The goal of the liberal democrat government is MORE GOVERNMENT, MORE CONTROL, and MORE POWER. Period.

If they truly wanted healthcare reform, they'd at least LISTEN to republican ideas (they do have some good ones). They'd show interest in tort reform. But instead they've refused to listen to any outside ideas, they have COMPLETELY shut republicans out of the process, and then have the audacity to complain that it is republicans who are being partisan! Americans are waking up, and democrats will soon find they have vastly over played their hand.

VFW-

And why isn't this Obama's bill? This bill is 80% democrat's bill, of which he is the ring leader.

The only 20% that came from republicans was the part attempting to keep our country from turning into a 3rd world wasteland with more wasteful spending.

Please stop thinking Obama is any different from the democratic congress...

If anything, he just has them do the work while he goes out and golfs (he's golfed over 30 rounds since he took office... 30 rounds x minimum 4 hours a round, plus the hours of security proceedings for each round..

gee, a round of golf for the president is a whole-day affair... so he's spent 1 of his 10.5 months in office just golfing... seems he is working hard!

Obama is not a savior. He is the first black president. Thus he is loved and given respect that he hasn't earned. He is the same as Reid and Pelosi, a liberal democrat.

To separate the two is madness.

Sorry, Steve, this WAS a Democratic bill. Now its a toothless waste with all the meaningful propositions removed to win support from "moderate" Republicans like Olympia Snow and "Blue Dog Democrats" on the insurance company payrolls. No public option? No tort reform? No repeal of the insurance company anti-trust exemption? Where's the "reform" in this reform bill? It's just another giveaway to the insurance industry, just like the Republican-authored Medicare D bill was. I supported the bill when it contained those measures, but now I think it's a sham. Time to start over and REALLY cut the GOP out completely. They're the "Party of No" and have no interest in changing any part of the status quo.

• The U.S. Post Service was established in 1775. You have had 234 years to get it right and it is broke.
• Social Security was established in 1935. You have had 74 years to get it right and it is broke.
• Fannie Mae was established in 1938. You have had 71 years to get it right and it is broke.
• War on Poverty started in 1964. You have had 45 years to get it right; $1 trillion of our money is confiscated each year and transferred to "the poor" and they only want more.
• Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965. You have had 44 years to get it right and they are broke.
• Freddie Mac was established in 1970. You have had 39 years to get it right and it is broke.
• The Department of Energy was created in 1977 to lessen our dependence on foreign oil. It has ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24 billion a year and we import more oil than ever before. You had 32 years to get it right and it is an abysmal failure.
• You nationalized passenger rail service in 1970 with the creation of Amtrak. Not once, in any year since then, has Amtrak made a profit. You've had 39 years to get it right and Amtrak is still broke.

You have FAILED in every "government service" you have shoved down our throats while overspending our tax dollars

AND YOU WANT AMERICANS TO BELIEVE YOU CAN BE TRUSTED WITH A GOVERNMENT-RUN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM??

The democratic party has tuned out America, their employers. The majority of America does not want this pig trying to be shoved through before Christmas, even though NO ONE will see any benefit from it until 2014, BUT, taxes start immediately, less than 3 weeks from now. I think I should do business like that, I'll take the money of people and tell them that the product, which they have no clue what it is, will be ready in four years. I'll get my money and then in four years I might change my mind if I have someone else come in (much like the races in 2010 and 2012) and says No I don't like the product and let's scrap it, but guess what? since I already have everyone's money for four years I am a zillionaire and I don't have to answer to anyone for that because I am the governing body. Lots of people could die between now and 2014 when benefits could be obtained, but their hard earned money will have gone for it, with nothing to show. This is a crime on the American people and there is nothing anyone can do right now besides wait for 11 months when they can kick out this overbloated, overtaxing, corrupt, partisan administration out in the senate and lots in congress. Speak up people, let them know your not going to buy into their product, it's your constitutional right. The federal government CANNOT mandate anything on the people of the United States, only states can mandate something, so screw Reid, pelosi and obama.

VFW American

If this bill does not cover pre-exisiting conditions and we have to purchase health care or pay a Fine or Penalty then this bill is Dead as for as I am concerned.

I heard the bill will require that those with pre-existing conditions cannot be turned away for that reason alone. However, I did not hear whether or not the government will somehow prevent insurance companies from charging huge premiums! Most likely someone like lieberman, the best friend of insurance companies and Israel, will ensure that those with pre-existing conditions must pay whatever the insurance companies want.

Well, if were not for unemployment insurance, our streets would resemble the beggars from "Oliver". If it weren't for Medicare, many seniors would die. If it weren't for social security, many more would be suffering. If automobile insurance were not mandated, all insurance rates would skyrocket and those that do not have insurance were never pay. Does anyone think of all those who visit ER's; do you realize that we bear those costs and they are astronimcal. We need a new insurance plan with a public option. It's unfortunate that Obama could not ram through this bill like Lyndon Johnson did with Medicare and save the country from the selfish congressman. If we could take the funds we spend on healthcare and rebuilding Iraq and give it to Americans, we would not have a problem.

Try again Dizzykat:

http://www.wkrg.com/financial/article/post_office_will_go_broke_without_help/24808/Mar-25-2009_2-43-pm/

or

http://www.glencoenews.com/Main.asp?SectionID=8&SubSectionID=8&ArticleID=23184

The USPS's problems are legendary.

Lakersgirl

Obviously you missed the real issues. go back and read for yourself and stop listening to the media.

dizzykat has some good points. So do the people with counter points. For most of us it boils down to the following which are contentious:

1. Do we need to cover every US Citizen? Most of us say YES.

2. How are we going to pay for it.

Most of us say not with money from small businesses that employ a majority of the people, and are struggling.

Most of us say no to printing money and debt.

If we could find a sane and financially sound way to pay for the social program then, by all means do it. I personally recommend putting a tariff on imports. These are the companies that took our jobs, that don't pay their workers healthcare, and took our profits, preventing us from hiring more people and paying better wages to the middle class.

Dizzy,

I have to stop you on the cheaper thing. It is not cheaper for a doctor to kill you than to cure you. They get money by making sure that you have more tests than you really need, more drugs than you really should have, and more checkups than you have any right to have.

Insurance on the other hand is in a constant battle with doctors to stop these tests, drugs, and appointments.

The point is that this bill does not lower the cost of an exam, discourage doctors from ordering too many tests to avoid a lawsuit, or even make an insurance company pay for all the ridiculous exams. I saw a person be sent in for five different chest x-rays all of which showed the same as the first. Tell me that was not a waste of time and money just to make sure the doctor didn't get sued.

We do need something, but we need to start from scratch, as in abolish medicare and medicaid, SCHIP, and all the other programs. Give everyone the same basic coverage and allow for supplemental insurance, like a gold plan to get faster service or better drugs, from our employers or on our own. Cover ages 1-22 completely, and then 65-X completely. Between those ages, give BASIC coverage and bill out at a prorated cost based on income. We then all pay in 10% of our income to cover health care. Just a little more than Medicare and Medicaid and we actually get a benefit.

Of course that still isn't good enough for most people and it won't line Obama's reelection campaign with Pharma dollars as he makes more back room deals, or maybe Ried and Baucus will not get the kick backs.

Oh good grief! You have no clue of what you say; you are most likely a tea bagger getting your info from faux news. What do you think of mandating auto insurance or that your children attend school or get polio vaccines? Do you believe in having a fire department or a police department? Are you going to refuse social security or Medicaid? Do you boycott public libraries and refuse to drive on public roads and bridges? Are you against the 911 system, air traffic control? Are you against the military? Are you against the constitution that mandates so many things? You must be just fuming that we have such a despicable rag. This particular bill is crap and should die ASAP but we need to fix this terrible situation in this country before it is too late. Thousands die every year because of no insurance and you people don't care until it is you that needs the help and then you are in the front of the line with your hand out. I see this every day, people that have lost everything now asking for help when before these same people were against the government helping those less fortunate. Most of these people writing their hate are just a paycheck away from the same fate and who will be there to help them? The big bad government!

dizzykat,
off topic, but don't forget the usps has a government-backed monopoly on delivering first class mail that no other delivery company has, they were in existence for over 200 years (while being funded by the taxpayers) and only moved away from full taxpayer support in the 70's or early 80's, and have been running defecits for the last few years. So they're not as solid as you might think, and have used plenty of taxpayer dollars to get where they are today.

They have already started look at the proposal for mammograms and pap smears. That's just the beginning once they have total control anyone over a certain age may as well lay down and die because what's the cost of keeping an elder alive, is it worth the money. Of course not they are going to die soon anyway why waste the money. When has the government ever done anything right. Just look at how the H1N1 flu vaccine has developed what a joke and now they are recalling the vaccine. I make my own decision on my health care I'm not a child that the government tells me what I can or can't do.

The fact that the public option is not there, the fact that people who CANNOT afford health care will now be required to pay ( in loo of perhaps feeding their families?), the fact that the Democrats cannot stand together and the fact that the Insurance Industry is obviously in charge irritates the blazes out of me. The fact is that insurance companies already control your treatment and this is the least important issue. Who cares "who" tells you what treatment you can or cannot have. Basic requirements are not being met. I resent the fact that a clown like Leiberman has so much power. Let him stand in a clinic line for 8 hours to get desperatly needed treatment and see how long he survives. The arrogance! We pay for his insurance and he disputes our right to have any!? If Obama signs this bill he will prove to me without a doubt that this is politics as usual and I will not be able to vote for any incumbant regardless of party affiliation. I'm angrywith them all.

Lonewolf (and I can see why you're alone),

The United States of America was founded in 1776 and had 233 years to get it right and is broke (have you seen the deficit that the GOP ran up during the Bush yrs?).

I guess following your line of thinking we should just abolish the US govt altogether and things will be better. But I have a feeling reality is different. I think that the reality is that we'd be better off keeping our govt, as imperfect as it is, around. Just like 'govt. health care'. It might not be perfect, but it's better than nothing. It can always be improved as time goes on.

None of what the government enforces applies to the people making the rules. They are paid based on what law they pass and what they vote for, that's the whole thing summed right up for you. We the citizens suffer and they get rich. They don't vote in our best interests, nor will they won't be bound to their own health care reform if it passes. We think these govt agencies are there to protect us but they are NOT. Wake up and stop depending on the FDA to protect you too, they protect themselves. Remember Vioxx among many others? They were paid a lot of money to pass that drug through approval, and then many people died from it. No consequence for them.

dizzykat i have to point out a couple of errors here, first it was bill clinton and the democrats that deregulated the banking system in 1998, and just as the entire system as going under democrat barney franks was still saying they were ok andneeded no regulation. as far as the poster that pointed out the spending and deficit by the bush administration they should consider that obama has spent more in 10 months then bush did in 8 years. the point being is they are all at fault. the solution? get rid of every last one of the lying, self serving, money/power hungry politicians and start over.

GAO on Post office solvency:

http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-09-332T

Follow the financial links here:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/alston/alston21.html

That's exactly what they want Lakergirl...they want control of you. You cook a frog not by putting them in boiling water but putting them in warm water and slowly turning up the heat. By the time the frog realizes it, it is too late to escape. This is what your far left wingers in the Democratic party have in mind, control over you, your mind, your speech, and anyone who disagrees with them are racists, hate speechers, and the like. The time is now to jump out of the pan, and kick the pan over on the cook?

"The fact that almost nobody in Congress has read the whole thing cover to cover is disturbing... "

It ought to be more than disturbing. Anyone who would vote FOR this bill without reading it needs to have a recall petititon started now...and everyone ought to write, call, fax, and tell your Congressmen and Representatives to READ the bill, digest it, do it right, not just VOTE because their party puppets want them to.

I'm not a Democrat nor a Repubulican but voting on this bill without reading it, without understanding it, and from what I understand costs so much it will bankrupt this country, to me is tantamount to treason...

Benjamin Franklin said it best, "two wolves and a sheep vote on what they want for dinner, and a well armed sheep protesting the vote?" The tea parties are growing. Those who think they are going to force their ideas on Americans might well remember what happened to the British...maybe your House and Senate members need to learn what it means to work for a living and having to live within their means? Just a thought.

We are not! All polls now show the majority AGAINST this particular bill, although not necessarily against a less invasive approach. We are now at 78% saying NO!

We "no"people are the majority on every major poll lately...the more people know about this particular bill, the more they oppose it!

Think we're in the majority? Way back in 2008 when Wall Street was in a meltdown, the public did not want the financial burden of a bailout. However, Diane Feinstein and her millionaire friends new better than us and voted for the bailout saying "the public doesn't understand the consequences if nothing is done".

well put patriot

Can't wait to hear the wailing and cryin' when we all have to payout 40 to 50 percent of our income in a few years JUST for health care. My husband and I are paying half again per week in 2010 for our premium vs. 2009 and the out of pocket went up. This is a fact and it's gonna' get worse. I am for a single payer system...now everyone jump all over me for THAT statement. HA!

There is no free lunch; further along this survey you will see a Canadian say they pay 50% taxes & wait in long lines for poor care. It is not free and you keep thinking that it won't cost as much but it will folks. The country is broke so you all will be ponying up whether you think you can afford it or not!

Try 81% of Americans are now against the current health care reform bills in Congress and in the House because they found someone who could read them and understand them and not just accept the PR, SPIN, and hype...but your elected officials are trying to pass the bill anyway, ignoring their electorate and the people who actually have jobs, create jobs, and work for a living....go figure? It's time for recall peititions to start now, not wait until 2012. Anyone who would vote for a bill without reading it, I'm sorry....its time for a tea party and I'm not a Democrat nor a Republican....just care about America.

can't wait for election time. it appears the democrats in congress have no clue that they are about to lose their jobs.

Really? Yes...public majority is against THIS reform. But shouldn't we make a distinction between those who are agaisnt it because they want things to stay as they are...and those who are against it because it's not liberal enough?

But I guess that might ruin your platitude, huh?

Natasha,

Just wondering but were you on here a few months ago complaining that the Republicans were not listening to the public when the polls showed that the majority of Americans favored health care reform.

dizzykat/Roz,
Most would agree that some type of reform is needed. However, it seems to make more sense to work out a solution that achieves goals for those on both sides of this argument (or at least includes the common elements) instead of a bill that the majority of the country is against, but may be touted as "historic" by a few hundred politicians in DC...

Wrong Natasha. The majority is NOT against "health care reform". The poll numbers have changed because the current version of the bill does very little to really reform the healthcare system. In a ridiculous effort to pass something, the Senate Dems have traded away all the teeth the bill might have had. I believe the poll numbers are now reflecting the dis-satisfaction Americans now have toward a bill that will mandate citizens to buy insirance, but does little to nothing to reduce the cost structure. Sadly, what the debate on this issue should tell every American, just as in 1994, is that too many of our politicians care far more about their corporate backers than they do the lives and liberties of US citizens. I pose this question to all of you: "Why should any of the money that you and/or your employer pay for your healthcare coverage be a source of, not just profit, but obscenely large profits, for private companies that serve no purpose other than as a middlemen between you and your healthcare providers? Are you truly going to tell me that you condone and praise a system that takes your hard-earned money, that you are paying so that you have "health protection" when you need it, and puts it in the hands of corporate execs? So you like the reverse Robin Hood effect?

I want my liberty BACK from the feds and do not want to be told that I must buy any product! If it's so profitable I say go buy insurance company stock and sit back & relax!

I think a lot of Americans, including me, want health care reform, but what we don't want is what is offered in the House and Senate right now. What we don't want is more graft and corruption. What we want is for a team of people, both Democrats and Republicans, who invite DOCTORS, not health insurance companies, who invite PATIENTS, not HMO providers, who invite PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR A LIVING, not those who survive on the public dole and have no intention of ever working but getting free health care on your dime.

We want improvement, reform, but we sure as heck don't want this. Over 81% of the people, who now understand what is in these bills, DO NOT want it, and the cost will bankrupt this country, mostly due to the fraud and abuse therein...

It's that simple...it's not a Democrat or Republican thing, it's the sure lack of common sense among your legislators, many of whom have never had jobs nor had to work, nor carried a lunch to work...

Cover up being the operative word....and ou are exactly right. They don't want you to read it. Trust me they say? You play cards with your mother but she still cuts the deck. It's time the people became involved, because your politicians are corrupt?

when someones yells " liar " in a crowded room of politicians, just who are they talking about?

Agreed. I don't want my tax money paying for the health of the lazy or illegal aliens. Does that seem mean? I don't care how it seems.

Frank-m21: "Agreed. I don't want my tax money paying for the health of the lazy or illegal aliens. Does that seem mean? I don't care how it seems."

-----------------------

Then I guess it's a good thing that the bill prohibits that, huh?

dizzykat, the bill does not prohibit that. This is specifically written for those who don't pay anything in taxes and any ammendment that was presented by the republicans to ban illegal aliens in this bill was shut down by all democrats, so please watch C-SPAN and look in the archives for these committes and you can watch the words come out their own mouths about these things.

You are wrong

Conservatives are against the bill because of things they THINK are in there that really AREN'T. Liberals are against the bill because of things they know SHOULD be in there, but aren't.

Esp. dump that biatch in the corrupt state of LA named Mary who's vote was simply bought.

She MUST go as well.

I agree with Sic Semper Tyrannus - the public wants better access to health care, but not this piece of dung. As a matter of fact what they're fighting about in the Senate right now in no way resembles the health reform I heard the the President speak about when he gave Congress its mandate to come up with a health reform bill. Well, they came up with something all right and, frankly, the piece of crap they killed millions of trees to put together isn't worth the powder it would take to blow it to hell. For those of you whose short term memories are totally shot (and there seem to be quite a few of you), if you can't remember what the President actually had in mind in the way of reform, maybe you ought to look it up - I'm thinking his speech should be out there somewhere on the internet, probably on Youtube - everything else is. Meanwhile, our Congress has proven once again that it can't put aside partisan politics long enough to do one damn thing that would actually benefit the American people. They are worse than kindergarteners on the playground.

Well stated, SMarie.

Semper Fi

Hey, Relicface: Do you honestly believe that Mary's constituency in LA will vote her out when she took a 3M bribe for her state to do with what it wants (i.e. more welfare to go around!). If ONLY these jackass senators could be voted in or out by ALL state constintuencies!!

No not really. If her constituents cared about the big picture instead of themselves (just like our elected officials) then yes of course they would. They will all be negatively impacted by this socialist power play too. Taxed to the point of slavery....sure you get paid, but after you pay tax after tax after tax and then fee's, licenses, registrations, etc, etc their is really nothing left......you are a slave to this government....little more. You can leave the country but keep in mind that every other country in the world has immigration policies that work for it and it's people not against the people like ours does.

I live in Pelosi, capps, boxer, fienstien California.....this state has been lost to the commies....they our now in Washington.....our votes are now a joke....it's time for a coup if you want your country back.

Ah, a truth Teller!

Nope, he can't do it, Mr Bush already has!

That's right. Bushhit and Cheney screwed us good.

Oh please, get yourself up to date; BHO is spending WAY more, maybe 4 or 5 times as much, as GW...not that he was any saint either.

Terry,

I wish we could keep the slander out of the argument. It just dilutes it and opens it up for the negative criticism that followed your point. The same should be stated for either side that posts. As a country we cannot debate issues until the name calling finally comes to an end.

For example,

Hussain, although true appears to be a play on discrimination (Muslum). To bag on Bush ignors the Democrat contress that has been in control for 3 years.

Terry: Excellent post!BTW, the last time I checked HUSSEIN is one of the legal names he was given at birth... why would anyone object?

Obama is going to have a hard time "finishing his first term without getting impeached or just run out of town by an angry mob with torches and pitchforks!"

IF (and that's a BIG IF) Obama does complete his 1st term... he has ZERO chance of EVEN RUNNING for a 2nd... let alone get re-elected.

I cannot understand why he insists on doing something that is SO OPPOSED by such a large majority of the taxpayers?

Oh that's right, now I remember why... "OBAMA IS A PURE MARXIST !Regardless of how anyone wants to spin it... Obama is the one who personally complained that "our Constitution" did not go far enough to address "redistribution of wealth" which is directly out of Marx's Communist Manifesto!

His parents should have named him KARL!

For a guy a lot of people said was "intelligent" he seems to "specialize in TICKING OFF the taxpayers and a whole lot of people who voted for him too?

Intelligent? I guess not... not at all.

sandyinohio

It was the Bush tax cuts that is driving the deficit.

No matter how you spin it we will not forget what happened to the country from 2001-2008.

NJ Home

The combination of spending vs. revenue drives the budget. Until you get spending under control, you cannot raise taxes. It's kind of like bailing out your kid financially that spends more than he/she makes without there ever being a consequence. Until you pin spending towards income/revenue you will have deficits.

It's getting so old listening to you guys blame Bush & Cheney for things passed with a Democratic congress, and the new Trillion dollar fiascos Oslama and the new Democratic congress have enacted...are you gonna blame Bush for everything you guys do from now until eternity? Part of being an adult is owning up to mistakes..stop the childish finger pointing-no one is buying it!

All this administration proves over the Bush one is it proves that no matter how bad something is it can always get worse.

Speedy,

Obama NEVER said that the Constitution does not address redistribution of wealth. That was from a satirical editorial that Rush Limbaugh saw, did not realize was satirical, and read on the air as if it were true. Rush may be many things (most of them unprintable), but one thing he is not is a fact-checking journalist.

NJhome

Are you kidding me? It is out of control gov't spending that is driving the deficit. People, well responsible people, teach their kids not to spend what they don't have. Why can't these clowns figure it out?

When you pay 50% of what you make (and that doesn't include sales tax, gift tax, etc.) come talk to me about how rediculous tax cuts are!!!!!!!

Rush commented on an interview with Obama on NPR in 2001. The full transcript and audio can be seen and heard here

http://www.foxnews.com/urgent_queue/#50041ecb,2008-10-27

and MANY other places on the internet. It is not hard to find. In the interview Obama noted that "the Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth and sort of basic issues of political and economic justice in this society and to that extent as radical as people try to characterize the Warren court it wasn't that radical. It didn't break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the founding fathers in the constitution, at least as it has been interpreted, and the Warren court interpreted it generally in the same way, that the constitution is a document of negative liberties [it]says what the states can't do to you, but it doesn't say what the federal goverment or state government must do on your behalf and that hasn't shifted."

If Obama has the chance to appoint a few more Supreme Court Justices, they will find a way of "breaking free" of the "constraints" imposed by the Constitution on Obama's and the Democrats' plans and dreams of a redistributionist BIG GOVERNMENT that will say what the state and federal government (and individuals) MUST do on behalf of citizens (and non-citizens). Pull out the Constitution and the early history of the U.S. to see how far the Dems have dashed away from the idea and structure of a limited federal government.

We are already in a socialist country and have been since the end of WWII. Where have YOU been?

We are not there yet, otherwise their would be equal POVERTY all around! You folks who spout this stuff think that because we all PAY INTO SS, Medicare, fire, police, etc that this means we are socialists. Not necessarily. We pay into these; we get various amounts back. BUT, this prez is doing everything he can to redistribute wealth under the "progressive" communist banner that it was "stolen" from the workers of the world...sound familiar? BS: people like my g'parents who came here, worked hard, SAVED SOME, and educated their offspring have made lives better; the promise of America. NOT FREEBEES for all! NOW I have some economic security, which I've worked 44 years to get, and I am not about to have it stolen from ME by govt to give to futuure Dem. voter pools to keep the thugs in power who are there now! SEND THIS INVASIVE BILL OUT & START OVER WITH ALL IDEAS WELCOME!

How is stopping Insurance companies from denying coverage a bad thing or socialist? Please explain.

You all with screen names of trucks or hobbies truly show your understanding of politics, business, and issues. I'm tired of people saying this will lead us to socialism. Socialism requires a complete change of philosophy that American culture (politician or not) won't buy.

But when have we as a country become such hillbilllies that we cannot look at other countries and say "hmm, that's a good idea! Maybe we should have that, too, since we are supposed to be the best country in the world - maybe we can even make it better?" You like your Medicade? You like your public libraries? Guess what, those are based on socialist principles!

Socialism, as a system of government, can't work because it's based on the idea that people will do what's best for society as a whole and not just themselves. And to see that that doesn't happen, all you have to do is look at our representatives in Washington, DC and all you people on this string complaining that you don't want to help someone in desperate need have a better life.

However, we can take lessons away from the socialist ideas and fit them to a democratic, tax-paying, free society. Has the public libraries turned us Red? Are you drinking more vodka since entering Medicade? No, because we've fit them to our needs. Nothing's perfect the first time through, but you get the bill passed and then start patching up the holes!

As far as I'm concerned, all you seniors out there enjoying your Medicare have no right to complain about government healthcare. If you like the public libraries, you can't be completely against socialism. An social security was working just fine until Ronnie Reagan (a Republican) opened up the social security reserves for the government to spend.

You want to get your country back? I'm all for it as long as it is to get rid of all those politicians that are working to make as much money for themselves as possible and furthering their own political agenda. But if you're talking about just putting another Republican in the White House, I just have to remind you how Reaganomics led to the Savings and Loan scandals, Clinton got rid of the deficit and created jobs, then W. took our economy and flushed it down the toilette with Cheney's help. Obama didn't get us into this mess, and you have to give him (or any president) longer that just 12 months to pull us out of a recession.

Think about what you are saying before it comes out of your mouth instead of flapping your gums with a bunch of slogans you heard on the news because you're angry.

Jumpmaster,

Stopping insurance companies from denying or reducing coverage is not a bad thing. Legislation that really did that and allowed multi-state competition between insurance companies would be a good thing. Along these lines, any "real" reform would disallow any influence from trial lawyers and include tort reform. Better yet, any real reform would disallow any influence from any special interst groups, period.

The problem is that special interests wrote this bill. They control the Congress. It is therefore time to start over. We can start over in a peaceful manner by dumping Harry Reid and Dina Titus, both from Nevada. We can start over by dumping most members of Congress, Dem or Repub.

Semper Fi

W-1124838:

News flash: the first amendment is still alive and relatively well in the U.S. Therefore, people can say what they want, when they want to say it. In fact, people can "flap their gums", as you stated in a very condescending way.

Sic, Except W happens to be correct on all counts. Just because the Constitution gives you the right to shout "socialist" every time the government tries to improve the lot of some poor wretch doesn't mean you have the slightest clue of what you're talking about.

Sic Semper Tyrannus... that is ALMOST the dumbest assessment I have ever heard. Thank you Richard.

i see a few of you have forgotten your history lessons. if you want to talk about the constitution lets do, it was never the purpose constitutionally for the federal government to become involved in the day to day lives of the citizens. as a matter of fact the founding fathers went to great lengths to make sure the federal government would not be involved and doing exactly what it is doing today. i don't believe the constitution is a "living document" open to whatever interpretation the nut jobs in Washington want it to be today. it was spelled out plainly what the job of the federal government was supposed to beand the limits that they were placed under. what we have today is nothing close to what our founding fathers had envisioned. they envisioned a small role for the federal government, the raising of an army when needed for national defense and taxation accordingly. when the need for a national army was lacking they relied on the militia's of individual states to protect themselves. the constitution give us the basic rights but did not spell them all out as they knew they were not the governments to give. just because we have the right to pursue life liberty and happiness does not mean we have the obligation to pay for it across the entirety of the population. it is INDIVIDUAL rights that were guaranteed which included the right to be free from a tyrannical, over sized, corrupt government. any person has that right to PURSUE the things the constitution allows, not to demand the prosperity they have not themselves earned. that is what the constitution gives us as rights, the democratic wing of the federal government wants to mandate all sorts of things because it's a way for them to control the population, well my friend i think your about to see a large portion of our population go out of control and boot every last politician out of the government and take our rights back, regardless of party affiliations. so you can continue to blame the republicans for your woes, or the democrats, whichever is your choice of disdain but it is ALL of them that have brought us to where we are at today and not a single one should be left in office over the next 2 elections.

W 1124838,

Sorry, but yours is the dumbest comment so far. Insurance of all kinds is simply about risk management. You do not have to buy it. It is based on actuarial tables, experience factors, etc. Without contol over the risks they accept, premiums they charge WILL HAVE TO BE TOTALLY OUT OF CONTROL.

All you look for is for someone else to pull the wagon so you can take a free ride,

W-1124838

Your anger is obviously out of control. Recommend going back to your trailer and taking your medication, ASAP. Uh oh, just "flapping my gums" again!!!

It must really suck to live life in a constant state of misery, you loser.

Jumpmaster82; if you look it up you'll see that the BIGGEST deniers of insurance for folks is from MEDICARE, that is what this stupid democratic run into the ground government wants to put everyone on.

I would agree that it is ALL politician, not just one party. However, your political meandering left me wondering if you are a high schooler that just got out of citizenship class. Ahhh, if government were only that simple.

So by what you are saying, we need to dismantle the armed forces during peace time? Does this sound like a good idea? If Afganistan and Iraq were magically fixed tomorrow, we should bring everyone home and the whole armed forces is shut down. Impact assessment: 1) We would probably be wiped out by N. Korea or Iran. 2) All you service men and women would be out of a job - think of the unemployment, then! 3) The devastation our economy would incur because all the companies that manufacture Humvees, airplanes, BDU's, etc... are out of business. 4) The spending to raise the army would be horrendous everytime we needed it because all the equipment would be rusted and not working because no one was around to keep it operational!

The constitution does NOT mandate laws. If you would study it, it only mandates RIGHTS. The right to free speech, the right to vote, etc. That includes the RIGHT TO PURSUE HAPPINESS. This right is being trampled on because the corporations (don't fool yourself, it's the corporations that are running the government, not the polititian, president, or people) feel their need to make the almighty dollar is more important than the health and welfare of the people!

You think everyone can acheive this? Do you think the ability to achieve the American Dream is equally distributed? The average IQ is 100. That means HALF of America is below average IQ. Are these people going to be able to run a million dollar company? Are they going to become engineers, teachers, doctors, police officers, or lawyers? Ok, maybe lawyers... ha ha. No, it's just not feasible. At the same time, we need people that work the food industry, clean our floors, pick up our garbage. (Now I'm not saying that if you work one of these jobs that you have a low-IQ, people. Don't get me wrong.) What I'm saying is why should a single mother that works 2 part-time jobs to feed her kids be treated like she's a lazy, worthless person that no one cares about? Do I think she needs to get paid the same as a doctor? NO, but she has the right to pursue happiness without all these self-entitled, selfish people trying to make her life worse. What makes you so special? Why do you deserve to be healthy and not somebody that isn't as "endowed" as you that is making as much of a contribution as they can?

JIM041424

Jim041424,

"Insurance of all kinds is simply about risk management. You do not have to buy it."

Umm.. you do have to buy car insurance... that's the law. Try reading.

All you look for is for someone else to pull the wagon so you can take a free ride,

I work full time... with benefits... excellent benefits. Let's try reading some more...

entId":11245263,"authorDomain":"sic-semper-tyrannus"}

Sic semper tyrannus

Sic Semper Tyrannus,

Your anger is obviously out of control. Recommend going back to your trailer and taking your medication, ASAP. Uh oh, just "flapping my gums" again!!!

It must really suck to live life in a constant state of misery, you loser.

Do I really have to point out who sounds like the angry, unmedicated one? And by resorting to name-calling and anger is a typical tactic of those who have nothing to say and are completely ignorant of any fact. Next time you want to voice your opinion, you should be a little more prepared for when someone calls you out? I can guarentee you'll get farther with facts than with that attitude...

well w-1124838, the idea of getting rid of the military at this point in history is simply preposterous, my point in all of my meandering as you put it was simply that the government should not be forcing this legislation down our throats, it was never intended by our founding fathers that the government be so involved in our day to day lives and that obviously if you look at it constitutionally this is so far off base from what was intended it is laughable. and i'll say it again, just because individuals have the right to pursue happiness etc. does not mean that the prosperous people of this country who have worked hard to earn their money have to pay for the poor mans prosperity. and in any case should never be mandated by the federal government.

Media is Crazy

You can't play both sides of the fence, dude. You don't want to take the constitution's comments about disbanding the army "literally," but you do want to when it comes to government involvement? You can't have it both ways.

I don't see how this is government involvement in our day to day lives? They want to insure that the citizens of this country are healthy and happy. They aren't going to review our medical condition daily. Why is it government shoving stuff down our throats if they say "hey, here's some affordable insurance." Why is the public option bad? I'll tell you why - because the insurance companies that are making money hand-over-fist don't want to lose their BILLION dollar profits!

As far as the pursuit of happiness goes, your compassion for your fellow man is inspiring... It's obvious you have no real grasp of what the impoverished are really like or facing. You probably live in the 'burbs.

So true. BHO is and has always been one "entitled" person who is in line with the communist "New Black Panthers" who want to steal citizen wealth to redistribute to poor blacks & other "workers." Like the rest of us didn't truly earn what we have. Ha! Very resentful, apologizing for the greatest charitable country on earth. They have a complex like Marx did about "fairness" that somehow thinks it is fair to give according to need but only give according to ability: like THAT's fair????

Why is it that when the actual reality of what the constitution is for comes up people start arguing that it either "doesn't apply" or is "being misunderstood". Health Care is a PRIVALIGE not a RIGHT! Just because someone else has a low IQ doesn't mean that hose with higher IQ's have to equally distribute ANYTHING!

Yes, the constitution deliberately limits the Federal Gov't! I'm curious to see what the states end up doing about it......

Agreed, wonder if any of them has been denied coverage.

Excellent retorte jumpmaster82! I agree.

And I'm not saying you didn't PAY for it. Just like the libraries, ALL Americans pay for it through taxes. You don't think this new healthcare will be supported through taxes? Is the magic health fairy going to give us the money? All taxpayers will be paying for it.

Well, "all taxpayers" would only mean the ones who actually work for a living; welfare recipients would only reap more benefits at worker's expense!

Approximately 11% of Americans are on some kind of welfare. I wonder how many of those are because of a job-related injury. I'm not talking about people faking a back injury so they can collect $400 a month and not work. I'm talking about firefighters, construction workers, people that really need it. So probably the "free-loader" number is smaller than 11%, but we'll stick with 11 to stay on a conservative estimate.

Do you think it's a good idea to punish the 89% that aren't? Do you cut off your nose to spite your face? Do you hate that much?

It is a fact that almost 40% of americans pay no income taxes. The 605 who do are getting tired, ya know? We already have programs for the truly poor; let the lower middle class be lower middle class already!

I wish I could control how much I get paid at my job like they do, too!

Why are WE the People so politically polarized with party affiliation? Right it Right and wrong is Wrong no matter if it is a repub or demo. We need to think for ourselves.

Agreed. The problem is that the parties have learned the "hot button" issues very well, and they use them to get their way. It's totally in their self interest, not ours.

c709707: Good post... you noticed how the survey questions were asked? Freakin Communists at PMSNBC did their best to throw people off, but fortunately the "overwhelming Opposition Spoke Loud and Clear!"

NO

I don't think Speedy fully understood your comment...

Yeah, why should the Democrats try to be fair when Bush and Cheney did such a great job. Yup, they included everyone in all of their secret schemes and discussions, didn't they!!!

Oh grow up & lose the kindergarten arguments!

Obama promised All Negotiations would be broadcast on CSPAN?

Another Obama Lie!

Why is there any such thing as "behind closed doors?"

Secrets? Whispers? Deals? Payoffs? Special Favors?

What are they trying to hide?

After the Democrats have had ALL the votes they needed in their own party; after having ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC and every major newspaper in the country "backing them; after All their dirty little secret efforts; and after all the big-time arm-twisting... the overwhelming majority of Americans are more opposed today than ever?

So, to Der Fuhrer in Chief; to our Marxist in Chief; to our Community Organizer in Chief and Teleprompter in Chief, we can say:

"You failed to accomplish anything AGAIN!

nwnative

Yeah, why should the Democrats try to be fair when Bush and Cheney did such a great job. Yup, they included everyone in all of their secret schemes and discussions, didn't they!!!

This should not be about politics, it is about people, American people who are in need of health care, it should not matter which side has the right bill, as long as it is RIGHT.

This bill will do nothing for anyone except the politicians in Washington, the dems want it so the repubs don’t, they played with and messed with the thing until it is worthless.

Neither said is concerned with the people, just who is going to have the power on the Hill, well, the people have the power in the vote, and I hope that there will be a lot of new faces in Washington come next election.

It is way past time that they were shown we hire them and they work for us, not the other way around!!!

The real change is coming in 11/2010

brad aull,

Your comment may be the most simple but meaningful of all. Thank you!

The next election will be a Tsunami of American common sense awakening !

I agree...a registered Dem. ready to defect. This is not the "change" most people voted for! Transparency? The speaker flat out says NO to having bill online ahead of time for 72 hrs. Collegiality? No, they close & lock out the Republicans & defeat evry amendment. This BHO ran as a centrist & here we now have a progressive liberal leftist! START OVER! I will be voting against anyone who passes this bill: Sherrod Brown & Betty Sutton in Ohio!

Lady, I totally agree with you. Not only do they have better insurance and don't have to worry about it, they owe millions of dollars in back income taxes. Do you think we could do that? No way. Do you think they care? No way. Surely our states will get turned around and have God as our Leader before it is too late.

But that means they would have to give up the socialized medicine they already have as members of Congress.

That is the first response us conservatives said to the liberals when they came up with this ridiculous plan. You want to take our coverage and give us less in return that costs us more.......than you sign up for it too !!

Their reply? Oh no, we are going to keep our 'caddilac' policies as an example to the rest of the public that they can keep their good insurance plans too if they want. Of course it's right in the house bill that if you do keep your hard earned plan you will pay an extra 40% on top of what you are paying now so that others can have a plan too.......what a bunch of total crap. Anybody for a plan like that is a loser looking for their next handout.

Liberals are short sited, double digit IQ losers who are always happy to take what others have worked hard for.