I would add about 1/2 the Democrats oppose this bill, which is why it hasn't been passed already. These clowns just don't seem to understand.

LET THE GAMES BEGIN. No torch lighting ceremony for this dog and pony show, Chris Dodd has already espoused the Democratic Party philosophy.......do it OUR way or get out of the way. There is no true intent to listen to Republican ideas and there has never been any effort to do anything but lock the doors while the leftists held their secret meetings.

Americans will have this forced down their throats even though most oppose this massive government takeover of our health care system. With further government intent to mandate all must carry insurance or be fined, the Dems still found a way to "redistribute the wealth" with the concept of subsidizing those who cannot afford coverage. And who makes this decision ???

Who makes the decision that private companies have raised their premiums too much ??? Who will oversee the 150 federal agencies (per MSNBC) that will be created by this epic attempt ???

That's right......the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT will now be calling the shots, making decisions for us all. Sen Dodd is okay with this since many health insurance companies have their home base in Connecticut.

This shows the Democratic majority knows how to wield THE RAW ABUSE OF POWER to get their way. The costs will cripple generations of our descendants.

Hurry up November, 2010....... we need some real CHANGE the rest of Americans can believe in !!!

The two biggest lies that the republicans keep telling the American people are that the people oppose the health care reform that is on the verge of passing and that the Democrats are somehow invoking the "nuclear option" by considering reconciliation in the same way that the Democrats did in 2005. The "nuclear option" was a threat to completely do away with the filibuster in all matters. They proposed changing the rules as they have existed for over two hundred years. Using reconciliation to pass, with some changes, legislation that already passed both the Senate and the House is not even close to the same thing.

As for public support, every poll that shows more people opposed that in favor included other questions that made it clear that about one third of the people opposed were opposed because it did not go far enough. This twenty to twenty-five percent of the electorate wanted vibrant public option. The number that oppose the reform in any form, the position taken by the republicans and their monstrous offspring, the tea party movement, has never been more than 35 %. In polls that simply ask if the respondents favor a public option, the majortiy always do. So, if the Republicans want to do what the people want, they will need to support a plan with a strong public option. Also, when the poll asks people about the provisions that the bill contains ( thereby demonstrating that lies that have emanated from the mouths of the Alaska quitter and others of her ilk) the people overwhelming approve. See this recent poll found here from the Kaiser Family foundation: http://www.kff.org/kaiserpolls/8051.cfm%20 The same results are found here in many of these polls, and, in particular, the CBS news poll. As soon as the Republicans in COngress and on Fox stop lying about what is being proposed, perhaps there can be some bi-partisan discussion of some of the provisions. But, until that happens, the Democrats should do what the majority elected them to do and pass health care reform now.

As for the effect on physicians, the least paid specialty, Family Practice, earn, on average, $204,000.00 per year. This is their salary, after all expenses including malpractice insurance. Surgeons earn between 300,000 and 700,000 per year. I think that the physicians will survive.

Funny how MSNBC spins things. Every poll I've seen shows people do NOT want this bill and the only reason the President is having it is to bully the Republicans in true Chicago mafia fashion.

"We'll have that meeting," said Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., who helped write the Senate bill. "But far more important, after that meeting, you can either join us or get out of the way."

This statement says it all. It is a set up and the Dems have no intention of being 'bipartisan'. They just want their way no matter what the PEOPLE want.

NO NO NO NO NO!

PADDYMURPHY------ Okay sunshine, go ahead pass it using reconciliation.

In Nov. we'll find out who is right and who is wrong.

Tell you one thing sunshine, you had better be right, because if you are wrong, ther is going to be much left of all of your parasitical programs.

You libs have gone too far, this time, it's time to pay the piper.

How enthused would you be if the other demonic side has already declared passage without you? Dems do not need the rep to sign on. This is an internal dem squabble for control. Sometimes it is best to stand back from people committing suicide. If Mass. didn't convince them, what will? This is the true definition of "Hell Bent".

Really nice spin Paddy.

Of course you fail to point out that over 60% of the country does NOT want this Democrat written takeover of the health care industry. They want actual REFORM, not takeover.

As for reconciliation, in 2005 that was actually used for BUDGET crap, not taking over the health care industry.

As for doctors making 200K a year, why don't you go check what they have to pay in malpractice insurance and include that too? Up to 100K in some states. And of course you think after they pay that they "will survive".

Your blind faith to this liberal agenda shows you to be nothing more than another "progressive" that thinks the government is the answer to everything, including you and your familiy's health.

Stupidity abounds in Liberal Land today.

Bajjgame. Obviously, you did not read the polls I cited. I understand that when arguing the conservative position on this facts are a handicap. Go look at the numbers and prove to me that I am wrong about what these numbers show. By the way, I did not link to any MSNBC Poll.

Actually, Jerry, we will find out who is right or wrong over the course of the next thirty years. I do not underestimate the ability of the Republican lie machine to once again mislead enough voters to win a lot of elections next fall. They have been masters at securing the votes of people who policies they actually hurt since the great actor won in 1980. History has shown that conservatives have been on the wrong side of the debates over many programs that have become popular and succesful, Social Security, Civil Rights, Medicare and Medicaid, ERISA, COBRA and others. You are once again on the wrong side of history.

Roger, YEP!

This health bill is important for the Dems. They will be able to tax the rich soon as it is passed, revenue will raise big time money, BUT!!!, the actual benefit will start like in 2013. Basically "Pay now - Benefits later". Sure, it will help Obama's administration with the current deficit. The question: Is this right or wrong? You people decide. What I see is the administration is using the pretext that the "American people will be protected with health care" while the real motive is collecting revenue....not cutting the cost of healthcare. To cut the cost of health care, the salaries of medical providers will be reduced - that is not the way America work as a free enterprising country. If we allow this to happen, how soon do you think before he looks at your paycheck and say....hey let's reduce your pay. Let me know if I've thought this right or wrong. thank you America.

Polls can be overread. Asking "do you favor the public option?" or "do you favor government over sight on insurance company increases?" typically elicit favorable responses. Yet the question of "do you favor the current health care reform plan?" still draws a "no" response.

One could do a poll with questions like "do you like to eat steak?"..."do you like to eat ice cream?"..."do you like to eat shrimp?"...and "do you like to eat pancakes?". All those questions would surely draw positive answers.

However...if all those ingredients were mixed in a blender and the resulting mess was terribly expensive and the question was asked "do you want to eat this meal of mush at $90 per serving and we can't guarantee how it will taste?"....the resulting answer would be overwhelming negative, despite all those nice ingredients.

That is what the 4,000+ pages of House and Senate "reform" smells like to many people. An overpriced mountain of mush that people have no taste for and are not too keen on over-paying for a questionable final result.

Paddy- pretty much the same arguments that Detroit, Chicago, most of California has been using for a generation. How are they doing implementing your lib crappola? btw, who was the last president to win 49 (FORTY NINE) states? uh, that would be R. Reagan, the last conservative president to appear on a ballot!

We need Health Care Insurance Reform NOT Health Care Reform!

I don't understand why congress cannot get together and pass a smaller bill that fixes the issues that both parties agree on and then work on other parts when the economy isn't as bad. Obama had the chance to do something big but has failed at everything.

WOW! If one were to just read the posts and not other information including the article itself this would be very simple wouldn't it? Wrong and very distorted, but simple.

Very first post 75% of the people oppose it, then comes 1/2 of the Democrats oppose it. then Dodd's quote but not McConnell's.

Those that can think on their own see it much differently. The Democrat plan is too ambitious and more than likely cost prohibitive. The Republican plan of starting all over, which means eliminating it all together, will allow the insurance companies to play Wall Street with our Health Care.

Which one of these ways do you want to be taken? What you have are the idiots from both extremes talking for the people. Pass it and it will cost us, do nothing and it will cost us.

Some of you above keep saying wait until November like a true party puppet but I didn't see a post that said these people playing politics from both sides are going to hurt us.

If this passes as it is who are we going to blame? It we do nothing and the insurance companies make it nearly impossible for employers to keep providing Health Care who are we going to blame?

Now watch it on television and let the games begin.........

Paddymurphy has been doing his homework. It's true, that the majority of Americans demand health care reform, including a public plan and single payor option. Calling it a "massive government takeover of 1/6th of our economy" is just pointless rhetoric.

Interestingly, while most Americans oppose what the GOP party of hate calls "Obamacare", when asked about specific parts of the plan (without mentioning Obama), the majority--suprise!-- support the plan.

I hope everyone watched Rachel Maddow last night. She's about the only person on TV who actually seems to question what people are saying. Liberal, of course... but instead of making up conspiracy theories on a chalkboard, she supports her views with facts. I think anyone who saw her on "Meet the Press" knows how super smart she is.

As she pointed out, the GOP have used reconciliation 16 times since 1980, including on health care related legislation. As Paddymurphy points out, the "nuclear option" was a threat to do away with the filibuster when the GOP had the majority. Reconciliation is done nearly every Congress. It's how we got the Bush tax cuts, COBRA, etc. etc.

I'm not really a fan of Keith Olbermann (he seems to have gone down the crazy Glenn Beck-like path since his mother died, unfortunately). However, he made an amazingly touching comment last night about his dying father, and how it relates to end of life counseling and care for everyone. I'm sure it's on the net somewhere.

I don't care if people disagree on anything, but I don't get how people can be so proudly ignorant, just believing what someone tells them without finding out the facts for themselves.

We need Health Care Insurance Reform NOT Health Care Reform!

duncancl, you have that backwards. They're attempting to fix 1/6 of our economy by focusing on 5% of the problem while they do nothing to address why it costs over $20,000 for coronary bypass surgery, which is a fairly common procedure these days, nor why we pay over $100 for a routine checkup when all they do is weigh you, take your blood pressure and have you fill out a survey, perhaps ask you a few questions? Those have nothing to do with insurance.

The problem is that we blame insurance for everything because that's the medium through which we deal with our medical bills, there's a disconnect between our expense and the actual bills, when in reality, if like all other goods/services in our lives, we deal with the actual costs directly we can police many of those things.

Right now you have an additional test because your doctor says "well we're pretty sure, we just want to double check" and you don't think much of it but if you were getting the bill sent directly to your house, absent of insurance, for $2,500 for that same test you'd probably interpret his words as "you don't really need this but we want an extra $2,500". That is one of the biggest problems with our health care system. No one has any personal accountability for their own health nor the care they receive for that health because it's "out of sight, out of mind" when it comes to the costs. Until that fatal flaw is corrected there's no amount of insurance reform that is going to fix our health care problems.

Paddymurphy,

"History has shown that conservatives have been on the wrong side of the debates over many programs that have become popular and succesful, Social Security, Civil Rights, Medicare and Medicaid, ERISA, COBRA and others. You are once again on the wrong side of history."

Seriously, you honestly think programs like SOCIAL Security, Medicare and Medicaid are successful?????? If that were the case then how come everyone is saying that Social security wont even be around when we retire and as for the Government run medical programs, i can only laugh at you because even your lovely Democrats are saying those programs are not working and are BROKE financially.

I find it interesting that the claim is "republicans are just saying the majority of the people don't want this health care reform." Hmmmmm wouldn't you think the lost Senate seat in Massachusetts and what went on in Illinois would be sending a signal? Wake up people.......Americans DO NOT want the Government becoming our health care advisors.

Mr. President: You hope that this isn't political theatre? Oh, Mr. President, PU-LEASE! How did you ever get to the White House in the first place? You thrive on it. You bask in it. You owe everything to it.

Oh and wouldn't you think the Toyota fiasco could be considered "political theater"? LMAOOOOOOOOOO Can we say Government Motors?

Hey Jimbo. Don't look now, but it's Dodd who is the one forced to get out of the way. Lame duck and irrelevant. Finally got busted upside the head as he should have long ago.

How soon you all forget numbers can be made to read what ever the taker wants them to read either by area in which the is taken or by the questions asked and how they are asked and in how many different ways they are asked. This is a dog and pony show in front of the cameras again now isn't it. As always just my opinion.

USA is great - the only place that states that republicans opposed civil rights is the history according to the democratic party.

Consider what these black Americans have to say about what you claim.

http://www.nationalblackrepublicans.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=pages.blackgop&x=4468320

I love Lamar Alexander's characterization of reconciliation as a "strange process" as if he's never participated in it before in 7 years in the Senate when it was used to pass Bush's tax cuts and Medicare Part D. He reminds me of Phil Hartman doing Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm just a caveman. I fell on some ice and was later thawed by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me! Sometimes when I fly to Europe on the Concorde, I wonder, am I inside some sort of giant bird? Am I gonna be digested? I don't know, because I'm a caveman, and that's the way I think! When I'm courtside at a Knicks game, I wonder if the ball is some sort of food they're fighting over. When I see my image on the security camera at the country club, I wonder, are they stealing my soul? I get so upset, I hop out of my Range Rover, and run across the fairway to to the clubhouse, where I get Carlos to make me one of those martinis he's so famous for, to soothe my primitive caveman brain.

USA is Great: Social Security has provided income to several generations of retired Americans over the last 70 years. It has worked throughout that time period. Things have changed over the years in ways that noone who helped create it could have anticipated, like life expectancy growing to 80 years old. When it was passed, the retirment age of 65 was actually beyond the life expectancy. Changes have been made and will continue to have to be made to keep it solvent. How can you claim that program that worked for 70 years, continues to work and, with appropriate changes, will be there for when we retire is a failure. How would the millions of retired amercians who have depended on Social Security to suppor them have been provided for? Medicare and Medical Assistance have also worked well since their inception. They provided health care for millions. How have they not worked? Where would those millions have turned for health care without those programs. If those programs are so bad, then why have the republicans not tried to end them? How well would that go over with the people? See any polls that show the majority want to do away with any of these programs. If you truly beleive that these programs are such abject failures, then you are truly out of touch with the people of this Country.

Paddy,

I am totally supporting my mother whose only income is SS because the Government feels 600 a month is enough to live on. I have personal experince tha this program does not work. As for saying when it was created no one thought everyone would live past 60 years old then that begs the question of why did they create it ? Was it just to "look good"?????

Medicare and medicaid is so great then why is our current government not doing something to fix that program instead of creating another worthless program. If you say millions have benfited from the governement runned medical programs then why do we need this new bill???

You must be the one who writes what teh POS says on his teleprompter.

USA,

A couple of things I would like to point out. First and foremost, your SS monthly benefit is based on income during your working life with a minimum and maximum payment. Your mother would also be eligible for a portion of your fathers payment in addition to hers. If neither paid in for their lifetime, or chose to massage their income reporting to reflect a minimum income which would greatly reduce their SSI payments, then they will only receive the minimum payment. As has been said many times, Social Security IS NOT a retirement income but simply a safety net and assistance in living through your retirement years.

The second thing I would like to point out is that the fund would be very much in the black if congress had not decided to include the Social Security fund in the General fund. Then expanded benefits to so many people who had not paid in to the fund.

The concept, as implemented in the beginning was very good and self funding. Then the politicians finally got a hold of it. And the idea of eliminating it and putting all the money into the stock market, WELL we saw what happened to the Stock Market. The original concept was to assist other retirement funds and as a safety net in the event of a financial meltdown such as we have seen so many times.

Paddy... First, the Kaiser foundation poll you posted doesn't show anything other than the majority of Americans find something they like in the current bill. The GOP has even agreed on some of these things...such as elimination of preexisting conditions. But as pointed out before, just because we agree on some aspects, does not make us favor the whole bill.

Second...you did not site your source for the income figures for physicians. You have overstated the income based on several sources I'v found. Here's one of them:

http://www.worldsalaries.org/generalphysician.shtml

Shows Gross income of $140k with net take home of just under $100k for general physicians.

Third, you say that social security continues to work and is a good program but then contradict yourself by saying it needs appropriate changes. That's correct, because it isn't working as is and is becoming insolvent. It took this country 70 years to figure that out. And now its an overwhelming problem to fix due to the cost. Same with Medicare, Medicaide and Welfare. So all government social assistance problems are financially in distress. Why start another one when we have four that are not working and need to be fixed.

Just because the programs are popular doesn't mean they work. I'm sure a program that forgave all mortgage debt in this country if the house lost value would be very popular. But would it work? You have to factor in the financial costs to determine if a program works. Not just its popularity.

Clotho......

The GOP has used reconcillation in the past to get things done. However, nothing they did was ever on the scope of this nature what would affect the entire American population. A population that supports some aspects of this billl, but not the bill as a whole. And as I've said before to others, using the argument that the GOP did it in the past so it makes it all right to do it now is not an acceptable defense to bad policies. It's like the guy I wathced cliff diving this summer. He knew it was dangerous and shouldn't do it but the guy before him made it ok so he did it. Guess what. He landed on some rocks and broke his back. I do not condone some of the tactics the GOP has used in the past to promote the party's agenda but using that as an excuse only serves to lower the Dems to their level and not rise above it as Obama promised in his campaign.

The republicans' negative comments and united drumbeat of "NO" is not playing well in the live fourm feed right now and in this column. In the congressional hearings playing right now the reps are agreeing with the elements in the health care reform legislation but saying they will not support it. What is up with that??? No one is putting any spin on what the republican leaders are saying - those words are commig right out of their mouths.

OK, now I am convinced that this "summit" is a joke. Obama is insisting on talking about what both the Democrats and Republicans agree with rather then discussing what they don't agree with. This is evidence that this "summit" was designed by the Obama administration to give Obama and the Democrats the ability to say "this was a bipartisan effort" when they cram this bill through with the nuclear option.

It just speaks to the ineptness of the republicans. Obama is running circles around the reps. It is time we have someone who is intellegent enough to lead this country. The rep reactionaries are being knocked off their feet every time they try to push their rhetoric and unsubstantiated opinions.

Who's going to pay the government subsidies (on more expensive health care policies), the President?? In a few more months these blow hards in Blair House may be the only folks left with jobs and that's if they're not up for reelection!!!!

Mr. President.....quit acting like a little bratty child who pouts and throws a tantrum when anyone disagrees with your bullcrap health care plan. We the people are in the majority against what you and your lib partners are proposing. This summit is a joke......let's talk down to anyone that disagrees. We the people will be sure to have the last word in 2010 and 2012.

What I don't understand is why the Repubs can't just say, "take X and Y out of the bill, add A and B, and then you'll have our vote." They talk about what they want and don't want, but then insist that the only way to do it is to start over. Why is that?

Ok, ur1bella, you're a member of a democracy. Let's hear what you have to say. What is your fix for health care?

DUDE,

He's trying to show that the Republicans are lying when they say the bill is worthless and should be scrapped. That there are in fact, many provisions in the bill supported by Republicans and put in there at their request. The truth is that the GOP wants to start over from scratch to delay this being passed until after the mid-term elections. I think they are hoping to take control and rewrite the bill the way their corporate masters want next year and accuse Obama of obstructing "reform" if he vetoes their hackwork.

Mr. President. I have been watching you on tv today. You're an idiot. Presumptuous, pompous, and preachy in a condescending way. Most folks like me.....educated, intelligent and industrious....see right through you and your lack of substance and integrity.

It would be better for you to admit that you have not one clue on how to handle this instead of continuing to embarrass yourself and our country.

Please sit down and be quiet along with the company you keep.

Sincerely,

Ranger S on behalf of Americans who still believe in our country

YAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IS ANYONE ELSE BORED TO FU**ING DEATH WITH THIS "SUMMIT"?????

If I hear ONE MORE hard luck story,,,,I"M GONNA SCREAAAAAMMMMMM!!!!

Blah, Blah, Blah friend of Reid's with a cleft palate,,,,Blah, Blah, Blah friend of Hoyers with a tumor. We get it CONGRESS. There are sick people in the world. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE HEALTH CARE!!!!!! Why aren't the great stories of how 85% are very happy with their health care? Where are the miracle success stories that happen everyday in our health care system?

This is a regurgitation of the bills by the Democrats. WE THE PEOPLE don't want this BILL!!! 2,400, or 2,600, or how many ever pages is in this Redistribution of health/wealth is NOT what we want.

$1 TRILLION DOLLARS is too much. We The People DON'T have $1 TRILLION DOLLARS to feed into your "Hope for Change" grab bag of socialized health care.

Spending time and again the need for elimination of rescission, per-existing conditions refusal and creating portability are AGREED ON!!!! Move on to HOW are We The People going to pay for all this when we are BROKE??????

And Obama has to STOP TALKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He just LOOOOOOVES to hear himself talk doesn't he?

Something new please, they've spent an entire year doing that and ended up getting nowhere with it. As many previous posts have indicated, this is nothing more than another photo-op, dog and pony show and an attempt for the President to create an "out" for himself so he can say "he tried" when in reality everyone knows they really just want to cram this thing through as is, which they could have except their own party said "NO" and yet they continue to blame Republicans who they needed exactly ZERO votes from to pass this last year.

Rich-365548, it's not about the provisions that the Republicans agree with, that's the misdirection, it's about the horrible provisions that will stifle the economy and increase health care spending as well as premiums. If you don't believe me then check out the link below. As for "corporate masters", are you kidding me? The Democrats catered to the pharmaceutical industry and are handing over 30+ million new consumers to the health insurance industry in addition to minimum requirements for health insurance policies that will effectively set the baseline for premiums and include billions of dollars in subsidy money and let us not forget the Democrats repealing the schedule Medicare/Medicaid reimbursement rates that they had to pass in a seperate bill because it would have added over $200 billion to the price tag of this bill. And you blame Republicans for catering to "corporate masters"? That's laughable!

http://www.forbes.com/2010/01/16/obamacare-health-reform-lifestyle-health-health-care-insurance-premiums.html

diamondduq

I beg to differ. I have never hear Republicans say, "we'll vote for this bill if..." All they ever say is "start over." If any of the Dem demands result in a filibuster, how is that bipartisanship? You have to give to get. The Dems already gave on the public option, which was a big point for them. They also gave on income tax increases to pay for it (though other taxes increases are definitely still in there). What have the Repubs caved on? Nothing. Hence, the party of "NO."

Dr. Juan: Your discussions with your friends are certainly more accurate a read of where the people are than poll after poll that show what the people want to come out of this debate. Why don't you and your friends just get together and come up with a plan and we will just implement that. While I frankly do not give a @!$%# what any particular poll shows about support or opposition to this plan, I simply pointed out that the repeated claims of the Republicans that the "American People" oppose it are lies. I am not a nut job, I actually pay attention to the facts and do not take positions simply because they are ideologically correct. You and your friends in teh party of No have @!$%#ed up my country enough, and it is time that you are stopped.

I agree with you whole heartedly. Obama can't get it through his thick skull that nobody wants his health care bill, and I am a REGISTERED DEMOCRAT!!! DaDaDa!!!

All Obama wants is a government take over of health care.

Thinker; on they understand alright....they just don't care. It's a big part of their overall agenda (destroy our economy) and grab more power. This administration is neither Democrat or Republican....they are the Obama party and have no plans to be bipartisan or to compromise what they want. The government has no Constitutional right to own our Car companies, or get involved into our Healthcare. Does this stop them? No, they could care less about the law or the Constitution.

Ranger S. If I were on your side of this debate, I too would hope that the President sit down and shut up. Every time he speaks and the RepubliNO party attempts to respond intelligently, it is clear who has both the competence and willingness to confront the dysfunctional health care system. The republiNO party should have heeded that old adage that it is better to be quiet and thought the fool and to speak and remove all doubt. I do not know what country you believe in, but it is certainly not the United States. You have apparently no faith in this Country or its people to do what so many others have done; provide health care to everyone. I know that despite the unpatriotic lack of faith of so many on the right, this Country can do this and, when it is done, you can thank us for ignoring your lack of beleive in the greatness of this country.

This whole summit is only for President Inept to have cover when he crams this new tax bill through. That's correct. This is not a health care bill. This is a new tax bill! They are going to collect taxes for three years and then provide benefits. With these *ssholes' track record, does anyone with any brains really believe the taxes collected now will be there after three years?! Yeah sure they will. If you can find anyone that buys these liars' act, sell them some turds while you tell them they are diamonds. If they are ignorant or gullible enough to believe Obama and the libs, you should make a mint.

Paddy: Excuse me???? I have been the one contributing to the SS system for 45 years. The return on my investment happens to be very poor, thank you. I could have done better. If the trust funds were handled properly and responsibly by the federal government, the ss system would not be in the fiscal trouble that it is today, even with the lousy rate of return. The federal government knows how to take care of its own employees first and foremost, but it squandered away OUR OWN money on other programs. The ss system is financially very unstable, and it can't just be fixed by printing more money and indebting us further to the Chinese.

Paddy while I disagree with most of what you say, I must REALLY disagree with your faith in fellow Americans. My faith has been restored with every dusting libs have taken at the polling places. May it continue in infinity.

Clotho, the whole idea that on an individual basis the American people support health care is exactly what the republicans are endorsing, it when you aggregate it like the democrats that you don't have agreement.

Let me put it this way, if I were to ask you if you would like insurance that pre-empts the preexisting condition prohibition in insurance, your response would be yes, and it would be an overwhelming yes to all who are asked the question. Now if you were to ask would you like to extend that pre-emption to everyone and the cost of that to the nation will be 6% of the jobs and an increase in your insurance premium of 2-3% per month your response would likely be different, I know my response would be. Now on top of that we add eliminating the ability of the insurance company to drop you if you get ill or injured? Hell, yeah I for it. But if you extend it to everyone, it going to cost you 2% in job losses and another 2-3% rate increase. My answer now is hell no, I'm not paying for someone ele's insurance needs.

The republicans are saying start from the beginning and start adding the reform on an incremental basis. The democrats are saying its an all or nothing proposition that only the government can administer.

Been watching all morning. Same story as before:

Dems: The end of the world will come if we do not pass this bill. Hundreds of thousands of new jobs created by this bill (really? gov't jobs?). Our GDP will be saved by this bill. The recession will end from this bill... Blah blah blah.

Reps: Yeah, our party is in enough trouble, we're not putting our names on a bill that a majority of Americans do not support. Talk about "career ender"

People like me: Yeah but you are still not listening!!!!

All I hear is a sales pitch. No realistic expectations, details, or anything useful.

Obama cast the health care crisis as "one of the biggest drags on our economy," painting his overhaul effort as critical to the economic revival

He's joking, right? The "economy" is people working and buying goods and services with the paychecks. How is forcing more people to write checks to either the government or an insurance agency at higher rates to cover higher risk insurers going to help the economy? How is it going to help the economy of those forced to pull the extra weight? How is it going to help jobs if someone owns a tiny business and suddenly has to let some go because they can't afford to buy health insurance for all their employees?

Address the problem. COST. The problem with this reform bill is simpler though - liberalism and ideology.

Paddymurphy

Every time he speaks and the RepubliNO party

Disrespect and name calling (learn to spell Republican already) will not win arguments. It's like punching someone in the nose to get their attention then asking them to listen to your ideas.

St L Mike: http://www.studentdoc.com/salaries.html Try this source. Has salary info by specialty. I am not complainining about what they make, in my experience they deserve every penny. Simply do not oppose this with false claims that physicians will suffer. They will not. As for the success of SS, Medicare and MA, by any measure they have worked since inception. Saying that because they need to be changed to meet current condition is like saying that we should have just stuck with the B 25 bomber since it worked so well in WW II. Please explain to me how medical care would have been provided to the poor and the elderly over the last fifty years without Medicare and MA. Unless, of course, you would preferred that they had just followed the current Republican health care plan and simply died sooner.

Sen. Alexander is exactly right.

They should start over with a clean sheet of paper.

The ultra-liberals, Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Sen. Harry Reid, have foolishly spent a year to get it wrong. A bipartisan group can, and should, take a year to get it right.

Ranger S: Thanks for re-assuring me that wasting my time watching Obammy listen to his own voice is exactly that-a freakin waste of time! I appreciate it. I'd rather read your and Rogue's posts.

Paddy: You're living in a total dreamworld. Let me guess. You've spent a significant amount of your life in some ivory tower or in a federal office.

Dude, I could not agree with you more! Why must there be a discussion on what they agree will work instead of finding out what won't work? This is all a political strategy on the part of Obama to get his way! He is literally trying to get the Republicans to do his spin for him. Can you all see why members of the Republican party turned down their invite to this carnival???

Am terribly tired of the GOP again with their start over tactics!! They agree on many issues, but continue to drag everything out just to delay. They remain the idiots they have been and nothing more.......obstructionists against helping the American people, but they are oh so for the insurance companies and their profit and greed!!
Senator McCain, once again you fooled me and made a bigger A8s out of yourself that even I would have thought possible!!!

cnj - That is not a tactic, if the Republicans have one thing correct Starting over is it. Start over is what the far majority of America wants. They want changes that will bring cost down, not big brother minding everything.

I want the same insurance options as our President, congressmen and women, senators, and government employees enjoy.

Patty, there are a lot more here against it, and against you, this is a better pole than any pole you read that is put together by some one sided news agency, if you argue that, I pitty you and the dream world you live in

The biggest drag on our economy is that socialist Barack Obama.

OK, YOU LIBERALS ARE OBVIOUSLY SHOWING DESPERATION AND PANIC!!!

This corruption filled bill of Health Care Redistribution is NOT what We The People of the United States want!!!!!

Despite your obvious refusal to believe the polls when they are blatantly against your socialist agendas, it has to be hard for you to deal with.

70% of the people WANT Congress to start over per FOX polls.

75% of the people Want Congress to start over per CNN polls!!!!

I understand you Liberals have confabulated in your Progressive minds that SOMEHOW, SOMEWHERE 25-30% is now the new MAJORITY. NO!!! It's not. Despite your bubbling anger and humiliation, to had your own incompetent party WASTE a year of our nations time, you must learn to realize and accept facts.

For you Liberals to even try and accept legislation of this magnitude that was FORCED on your own party with lies, bribery, extortion, fraud and corruption is pathetic and treasonous! This is NOT how our nation was built. Our Constitution guarantees to promote the general welfare,,,

NOT PROVIDE WELFARE!!!!!!

But then again Liberals want welfare, they crave it, anything free is good, anything you can take from the rich, greedy successful American is your right. Well, despite your confusion and misguided percetion of life the rest of us will take care of ourselves and ours.

YOU SHOULD ASPIRE TO DO THE SAME!!!!!!!

Allen: Are you serious? The cost of providing health care is the fastest growing component of labor cost in this country. When all of the other nations that we compete with provide health care through their government and we simply expect the employer to provide it, how do we compete when our inflation rate for health care is three or four times theirs. Have you ever employed anyone for whom you provided health insurance? Obviously not. Let me explain this in the simplest terms so you can understand. The more people who are in a pool of insured, the less it costs per person. That is because the larger the pool, the more young and health people who are contributing their premium without using a lot of the health care. That is why large employers and unions can get better rates for health insurance than you can individually. The recent huge premium increases by Anthem Blue Cross for those who purchase their plans individually occured because large numbers of younger, healthier people were forgoing health insurance, leaving older people who will use more health care dollars. Accordingly, it is more expensive per person to provide insurance. Do you not understand how health insurance works?

If the idea is to save money, why does the Democratic plan cost $1 Trillion MORE than without it, and many of the "benefits" won't kick in until the last 2 years, while we pay for it for 10 years

And please don't give me "The plan is Deficit neutral", because that's only possible if they RAISE TAXES by over $1 Trillion to pay for it.

I just can't believe how condescending the President seems to be. It makes me feel as though they are going to try to ram this through anyways. Hope I'm wrong because forcing this issue will cause a huge backlash in the general publc.

Something new please, you can "beg to differ" all you want but it's irresponsible, something the Democrats apparently care very little about, to pass legislation that will put an impossible to overcome increased burden on businesses in an already sluggish economy. The bills are to the point that the scalpel approach is simply not going to work. There are still income tax increases on the "wealthy" which will certainly trickle down as revenue needs increase causing the tax base affected by the increases to expand to the "middle class". The public option was a big point for many Democrats as well, hence why they, even with 60 votes, couldn't pass the bill. This blame game on the Republicans is entirely unwarranted anyway, the Democrats needed absolutely no Republican votes to put through anything they wanted and if they were so confident in the results they would have and taken all of the glory. However, they know it's a POS bill and therefore sought Republican support so they could label it "bipartisan" even if just one Republican voted for it. That way when it failed they could say it was due to the concessions made to gain Republican support. This is all "cover your ass politics. The President is holding this charade of a summit and all his other BS health care events so he can say "he tried", the Democrats sought Republican support so they can say "we tried" but "it's their fault if it fails", the Republicans want no parts of it because it's sure to fail and they don't need the "guilt by association" because let's be honest their performance has sucked enough in the past decade and the loser in all of it is the American people. Unless they scrap this monstrosity and truly start from scratch and implement everything that no one is arguing about but will have actually benefit and then progress from there, after we see the outcome of those changes, we are going to be worse off than we would by doing nothing!

Obama and his socialist sheeple WANT SOCIALISM.

They are going to TRY TO GET it no matter what the cost. And it will be expensive.

Thanks for NOTHING OBAMA!

They dont need to start over. They just need to chop the bill up into 3-4 smaller bills with larger print and pictures (sarcasm), As the bill is it is too big for everyone to agree on or to even bother reading. I want to see some yes and no votes, as I am sure many Americans want. If repubs never allow any bills to come to votes (290 bills currently stalled in the senate) How can voters decide who to vote for in Nov. 2010? I just think they are stalling, but I think it will bite em in the a$$ets instead.

Starting over on a fresh sheet of paper should be the aspiration of every American in this debate and even more broadly.

Begin with the Senate, House, Oval Office and Judiciary and move out from there.

Sometimes there is just no way to fix something that:

a) doesn't need fixed; or

b) is unfixable in its current state.

So you just start from scratch! That's what the founders of our country did. Where is that reset button...cause I want to push it.

I like the fact that when BO gets called on transparency versus ramming something down our throat, he quips "We are not campaigning anymore." Does that mean: 1) all of his campaign talk was lies? 2) the dems are in power, so sit down, shut up and let us do what we want because we know better? 3) we don't care what the majority of americans want (polls show most are against the healthcare reform bill), we are going to do what we want to do and you all just have to pay for it? The sheer arrogance is hilarious. If we were not all fighting for our financial lives this would be a good comedy. Where is the "summit" on jobs? What is more important to us as Americans, this bill, or the massive amount of people unemployed right now? BO does not get it. Make the congress pay for their fiddling while rome burns.......Nov is just around the corner. Vote all incumbents out in the primaries.

Ranger S

Where is that reset button...cause I want to push it.

ROTFLMAO!!!!

Be very careful,,,I hear Obama changed the word RESET on the button to,,,,

RECONCILIATION!

Paddy....I'm not saying that Medicare and Medicaide and Social Security did nothing good. I'm saying they are failing now due to the way they were managed since their inception. That is my issue with such a large government bill as the Democrats want to pass. The Republicans want reform as well but in incremental steps that can be managed better. Both sides agree on several issues. What is wrong with crafting a bill around those issues that both parties are comfortable with. Neither will get exactly what they want but neither will get a bill that they cannot understand and do not want. The Republicans are saying no to this because they must represent their constituents that are opposed to this bill. I'm getting pretty tired of being labled as a bad guy for not supporting this bill. Yes there needs to be reform and yes their needs to be social programs to help out the poor. However, the current bills do too much and guarantee too much based on assupmtions of future costs.

The CBO revised the cost estimate of the Senate Bill in December in a letter to Sen. Reid. In that letter, they said that in order for the $500 Billion in cuts that need to take place to make this bill deficit neutral, the amount of new enrollees in medicare would have to drop in half on an annual basis from historic trends. Without the only way to ensure cuts would be to cut further benefits under the program or limit access. The letter also stated that it was unclear as to if these cuts could be feasible.

Both sides agree on the need to eliminate preexisting conditions and more competition. Why not start there? Build a smaller bill around these principles and reform it down the line. There is a lot of misinformation that both sides keep throwing around. But, after reading the bills, having studied economics and working in both for myself and in the corporate world, the propsal as is by the Democrats, will do more harm than good to this country and our economy.

As for physician salaries, I never said they would suffer. I was pointing out a different source that showed different figures than you did. Also, the link you provided doesn't define salary. You are assuming the salary it shows is net not gross. You cannot assume that. Most people report their salary as gross and not net. Please show me where this shows it is their net after all expenses. In this respect, you do not know but you stated this was net. Thanks for the spin there.

Alykatma & Paddymurphy

Apparently, there's something very wrong with us. We just can't seem to get it through our thick heads that this healthcare legislation is just a devious plot by Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and President Obama to usher in a totalitarian/fascist/Marxist state with the three of them as the ruling triumvirate. Apparently, passing healthcare reform is a major step in that process. That's why Repubs are fighting it. It has nothing to do with the special interests in whose pocket they reside. It has nothing to do with posturing in order to pick up seats in November and 2012. And it definitely has nothing to do with stopping the Democratic party from yet again being responsibly for one of the most beneficial pieces of legislation in American history. The Republicans are trying to fight the good fight on behalf of the American people and we just don't seem to get it. I guess all those years of college and grad school didn't do much for me. Damn the Dems for providing me with financial aid so that I could go!!

My young son was watching this, and he knows nothing of politics. He did say, "Those guys and the President are the most arrogant and rude people I've ever seen, the way they keep cutting off the others trying to finish what they say."

I knew it wouldn't be anything more than a sideshow, Democratic style.

Its a lie that 75% of Americans oppose healthcare reform. I saw where even the vast majority would like a public option.

rudy, right now 56% oppose the current bill as written. the issue is that this bill does not address making healthcare affordable (lowering cost). all it does is shift who is paying for insurance. see http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform

Pre-existing conditions defined.

Someone that decided not to buy health insurance when they were well and now that they're sick they want health insurance.

How about car insurance. I got into an accident two days ago and I want to buy car insurance today so my accident is covered.

My Doctor just told me I have a terminal brain tumor, now I want to buy $500,000 life insurance policy and the damn greedy insurance companies turn me down.

Tax credits to help people buy health insurance. 65% of the working men and women in the US do not pay any, ANY, Federal taxes. So how do you give them tax credits, money, to pay for health insurance. You can't.... unless you give them back their Social Security and Medicare taxes, which will cause Social Security and Medicare to BK even sooner. That's really smart maybe the Country won't implode until I am out of office. Thank you Mr F'in President you're dreamy.

This thing will cost close to 4 trillion over ten years for ten years of coverage. The real shame is we will loose 6 to 7 million more jobs because of it, adding to our problems. It will cost $2,000 per year for every working person. It will cost $13,500. per year per uninsured person.

Jobless claims are on the rise again. This year we will have 300% more homes get foreclosed on, over last year. Yes 300% more foreclosures.

Thank you Mr "crackhead" President. Gub'mint CheeZe for all. I want Obama to be my mommy so he can breast feed me. I brought the lotion do you think he'll shave my back.

Somebody jerk John McCain out of the healthcrap conference Jesus Christ he's a commi mole "Manchurian candidate" da da da da da.

Rudy - that was a poll that contacted only 20% of republicans instead of the 32% Republican 37% Democrat the rest independent.

Something new.... Republicans are fighting this because it is bad for the country. The American people do not want it. I do not want it. I don't answer to special interests. I answer to myself and can see what this will do. I put my self through school, no public assistance, and am intelligent enough to read these bills and decide for myself, as is the majority of the American public. Since you brough education into this, what is your graduate degree in? What is your job? Please show me that all those years of education made you a qualified expert in this matter. I will not claim to be but being that I have a MBA and a doctorate in economics and finance and have worked for both myself and large corporations, I do know enough that this bill will hurt this country.

rudy-361417

Its a lie that 75% of Americans oppose healthcare reform.

Yes, you're right.

Actually 75% of Americans WANT health care reform.

Unfortunately for you Liberals 75% don't want THIS bill!

Just so you don't think we're pulling your leg, here's CNN's Poll.

Twenty-five percent of people questioned in the poll say Congress should pass legislation similar to the bills passed by both chambers, with 48 percent saying lawmakers should work on an entirely new bill and a quarter saying Congress should stop all work on health care reform.

Just in case you think I made it up, here's the link:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/02/24/cnn-poll-health-care-provisions-popular-but-overall-bills-unpopular/?fbid=8gbQWF5v3b0

PS Paul Ryan (R-WI) is kicking Obama and Bidens ass on the cost of this Abomination.

Something new please, hopefully that liberal arts degree is serving you well but I suggest you leave the economics and fiscal policy to those who actually studied it, much like Congress and the President should do because they're clearly nearly as clueless as you.

Answer the following:

Is the pharmaceutical industry a "special interest" group? As I recall they got a "behind closed door" deal to support this legislation from the President.

Is the health insurance industry a "special interest" group? Because for as much is being blamed on them the Democrats want to force an additional 30+ million customers on them, I'm sure they'll hate the additional premiums (sarcasm). The Democrats also want to force minimum levels of coverage, aka minimum premiums, on all "qualified" plans which will result in even more revenue for insurance companies. The government also wants to spend hundreds of billions of dollars on subsidies for insurance policies, which yet again is hundreds of billions of dollars more going straight to insurance companies.

Are doctors a "special interest" group? Because they got over $200 billion in scheduled Medicare/Medicaid reimbursement rate cuts repealed for their support of the legislation.

I'm in no way defending the Republicans because they truly haven't brought much of anything to the table but if their attempts to stop this destructive legislation succeed then that's enough for me. I'm also not a believer in the Rush/Fox News conspiracy theories. My disdain for the legislation is purely based on the negative economic ramifications of this legislation which are inarguable and for Democrats to not see the forest through the trees is inexcusable.

This shouldn't be about the Democrats or the President "winning" or "beating" the Republicans, it should be about making America better and this bill falls epically short of that and quite frankly will leave us in a worse position than would doing nothing.

New Poll Just Out... 100% of the hetrosexual men in the US don't like to get expletive in the Sphincter.

thats funny Mark... and true too!

To all saying that most people oppose this bill:

You're right!

It doesn't go far enough.

MEDICARE FOR ALL!

Obama's smart to broadcast the proceedings. It'll show everyone once and for all how the GOP's wanton obstruction solves nothing.

They've had their chance to propose alternatives. Time for reconciliation.

For the first time in my adult life I am "NOT" proud to be an American. I had no idea there were so many communist in this country. It must be the school system because it seems like most people born after the cold war voted for this piece of S*^t socialist for president.

OK folks, that's it. I can't watch anymore of this Slumber Summit. I don't even know how the people there can stay awake.

I was so bored I actually caught myself scanning the channels to see if the Olympics were still running the Curling event!

STLMIke

I don't doubt that you hate this bill. Hell, I don't like this bill. But you and I don't like it for two very different reasons. I want single-payer. I'd settle for a public option. Regardless, I take issue with this item your post:

"Republicans are fighting this because it is bad for the country."

This bill may indeed be bad for the country, but that's not why the Republicans are fighting it. Do you really believe the Republican party has the best interests of the American people in mind when they develop their platform? They sit around and say, "campaign contributors be damned! Let's figure out how to make America a better place." No, of course not. The reasonable thing to do would be to get into a room and compromise. But the Repubs know that if they do that, and a bill gets produced, the "Democratic" congress will get the credit. Credit for passing the bill. Credit for being bipartisan. They can't let that happen. So they're throwing the best interests of the country aside in the interest of scoring political points. And you're buying it. Good luck to you!

that statistic is a lie! the american people time after time have acknowledged health care reform is essential; a majority time after time favor a public option. when asked about specific proposal in the senate bill, a majority of americans were in favor of them.

now, have we liked seeing the sausage making - hell no; have we liked the special deals given to dino's for their vote - hell no; but to say 75% of american people are against health care reform is a lie!

"a gamble with political risks no matter how they do that;" the only gamble is if the democrats do nothing. the three elections the gop love to tout, all reflected either those not voting or those who did vote expressing the fact they were upset, not because too much was being attempted; but rather too little. the dislike, for a majority of those supposedly opposed to health care reform was because it did NOT include a public option!

PutzyMurphy;
You think just because you cite a poll or an average salary that makes it true or unequivocal? I read your drivel and quite frankly for every stat you state I have a more accurate one that chips away at your theory. For instance, the actual average salary for a Family practice physician is $140,000 per year not 204K and the range you gave for surgeons of between 300K and 700K is accurate but certainly not as an average! The average is actually less than 400K and the simple truth is that these salaries have been in steady and somewhat drastic decline. So if you wish to base a trillion dollar tax hike on faulty statistics then you would fit in perfectly with the Obama's and the rest of these neo-socialist democrats. They are really great at twisting the facts and the stats to rationalize this pathetic and transparent attempt to disembowle the financial structure and shred the fabric of hard working Americans. PaddyPutzy-smeggy-schmutzy-schlocky-schmocky-dittley Doo! We are tired of the Obama-Biden gibberish.

diamondduq

Again, I don't like the bill and the concessions in it. But your ideal bill and mine would still look very different. If we were both senators (God help America, if that happened), I'd like to think we could reach a compromise. In order for that to happen, compromise would have to be an acceptable outcome for both of us. Right now, the Repub position is "no compromise." That's untenable in any government. In the words of the Rolling Stones: you can't always get what you want.

p.s. My bachelor's wasn't in liberal arts, it was in Business Administration with a concentration in Finance. I don't think a BS in business makes me any kind of expert, but I do have some background.

My thing is that I just don't believe the president and democrats when they say that this will not add to the deficit. Please show me one instance where the government ever UNDERESTIMATED the cost of an entitlement program.

Add a page to this 2000 page plus bill that "mandates cuts to other government programs" if the cost exceeds their estimations and you might win me over.

Yes, I realize they would never do such a thing and if they did, would find a way out of doing it.

For the record if they pass this THEY WILL NEVER MAKE THE MEDICARE CUTS they are claiming as part of the plan to finance this NEVER!! they don't have the will to make any cuts and we all know it.

They will also PASS ON costs to the states, resulting in indirect taxes for all of us

Scrap the plan, and pass ONE reform at a time.

Joe Killian

When you talk about a physician's salary, are you including their cut, if applicable, as owners of a practice? I know a few doctors whose salary is about $250, but then make at least the same amount from their cut of the ancillary services (radiology, PT, PA services, acute care services, etc.) and profits of their office.

And you believe the Democrats do that. They do not. Both parties have to cater to their contributers, Democrats included that's why they won't accept any malpractice reform.

I agree that the Republicans are not completely negotiating in good faith...but neither are the Dems. Look at Chris Dodd's comment about getting this done after the summit regardless of the outcome. How can the GOP negotiate agains this type of mentality.

Additionally, you did not answer my question about your education on experience in this matter. Good you want a single payer option. That hopefully will never happen in this country as it will limit a good deal or our freedoms, not to mention be extremely costly for our country. Yes, European countries have this but they half a quarter of the population that the US has and much higher taxes to pay for it. I for one do not want to be paying over 50% of my income to the federal government.

Several Countries with socialized or single payer systems:

Country Max Tax Rate

Austria 50%

Belguim 50%

Denmark 58%

Finland 53%

France 40%

Germany 45%

Greece 40% (see how well that's working now)

Iceland 45.48%

Ireland 41%

Italy 45%

Luxemburg 38.95%

Netherlands 52%

Portugal 42%

Russia 13%

Spain 45%

Sweden 55%

Ukraine 18%

UK 40%

United States 35%

If your comfortalbe having over 40% to 50% of your income taken to pay the federal government taxes please go over to Europe. I don't work to have 1/2 of my pay taken from me. And this is federal only. Now add on state income taxes, personal property taxes and such that most of us must pay.

How do you propose paying for a single payer system in this country when 1/2 of those that file income taxes each year only accout for 2%-3% of revenues recieved?

What 75%? I don't think you know what your talking about!

Inga: You hit the nail on the head. That's exactly what Obama and the other Dem leftos want. They said it several times today: a "Cadillac" healthcare plan, which is unfairly granted to federal government workers at the expense of the rest of us, for ALL. This plan reminds me of the financial fiasco that resulted from people who bought the mcmansions that they could never afford. If you think that their bogus Fannie and Freddie mortgages damaged our economy, wait until you see this equally bogus plan enacted. I can't afford this plan and neither can any of you lefto maniacs. How long will it take before you realize this? Scrap it and start over!

bmiller: Have you visited a college campus lately? Lefto tyranny!

Sorry, didn't cite my sources before.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_of_Europe

http://www.gadling.com/2007/07/05/what-countries-have-universal-health-care/

After watching the WHOLE show. Ill say the gop proved beyond a shadow of doubt, they are own by Ins company, they would lie and kill their own parents and children before acting like grown man. A few gop did offer and discuss ways for health reform, HOWEVER the rest of the same BS was just that BS.

As for the so called 75% of Americans....again gop lies gop spins.

The party of NO will be the party of gone in 2010.

Robing Peter (medicare) to pay Paul (medicaid). The legislation being proposed, cuts of 500 million in medicare payments to fund medicaid and the uninsured, is lunacy at best. We tried this with the welfare system, robbed Social Security to pay for supplemental income, aid to dependant children, rent allowance, food stamps and medicaid, it broke the system; people in troubled times need help, not for life as a entitlement.

STLMIke

First off, I do not for one minute think that the Dems aren't beholden to special interests. I just think the special interests that own the Dems have goals that are (very slightly) more aligned with mine. I'd rather be on the side of the unions (holding my nose) than Haliburton.

As to taxes, you're way off. When you state the max tax rate in the US, you're not mentioning payroll taxes and state income taxes, something those other countries don't have. The actual max income tax in the US is close to 50% (theoretically) already. But then you have deductions and exemptions that those countries don't. My point is that its not as easy as comparing tax tables.

Something new please, the problem with your compromise theory is that just as there is no compromise between your position of zero personal accountability (single payer) and my belief in personal accountability, there is no compromise between, in this case, wrong (Democrats) and not right (Republicans) that can offer us any positive solutions, hence the bills should be scrapped and we should go back to the drawing board.

So it's okay for the Dems to be beholden to special interests because you agree with them but not the GOP because you disagree? I'd say that's pretty hypocritical wouldn't you? I don't attack the Dems for something that the Republicans do as well but you seem to think its ok.

As to the max tax rate in the US, I know it's higher than just the federal rate. But the payroll taxes are capped at a certain income. The other countries are not. This also does not inclued the VAT that most of these countries have. In the US you can add 6% for FICA and another 5% for other payroll taxes for individual wage earners. So that max tax braket here would be 46% assuming that the entire income is taxable. But its not for payroll taxes. That ends tat $98k/year last I looked which would reduce this amount. Now to fund a single payer system you want to add to this?!

And you still haven't answered my question as to what your graduate degree is in and what you do for a living! Why, because you know by doing so you'll discredit yourself as to you ability to analyze the proposed bills?

Ooh, I thought VP Biden was going to "Pop Off" on Pres. Obama.

It would have been good. Experience is the best teacher.

O looks so weak as a Leader. We have a kid running the country.

The Summit is or was a waste of time. At least Obama can say he listened to the Rep. Congress.

Nancy Pelosi looked like she was going to faint when Biden started his speech!

If government wishes to fix healthcare let them start at the VA hospitals.

More tight wing lies and nonsense. Last poll we did showed over 80% of the respondents in favor of health care reform. Since the republicans are the butt monkeys for the people who are fleecing us to expect they would do anything but stand up and lie about the facts was wishful thinking and a waste of time. The one clown who has been in the well railing about how good the CBO is on many occasions took this time to say they were full of it since they showed the bill would reduce the deficit.

All in all in order for us to work out of the deficit hole the republicans sunk us into we need meaningful healthcare reform. Apparently there are two factions who do not want to see this happen the right wing and Al Queda.

Obama doesn't want to have a conversation about health care. He wants to pout, pontificate and demonize. The Republicans need to tell that Marxist Affirmative Action Hire to go @!$%# himself.

It was a fine show. The Dems showed their base how much they care, and how hard they're trying, while the Republicans showed their base how fiscally conservative they are. Now they can get down to actually doing something. The fact they dissolved the insuance companies' anti-trust exemption yeasterday in a bi-partisan way shows they can work together for the greater good when they agreee on something.

I personally don't see how we can afford this without cutting the military budget, and I don't think that would be a good idea in these times.....with that said, let me say the following:

When the Republicans were the majority with Dick Cheney casting the tie breaking vote, did they give a damn what the Democrats or majority of Americans thought?

Did they not jam crap down our throats then??

What has made them all of a sudden a respectable party??

I've always known one side was a snake in the grass, but the previous rulers showed me they are all self-serving and un-American.

A vision without the resources is just a hallucination.

Independents: Vote out the incumbent in 2010 and every election forth!

simply said, "they don't get it." Pray to God that some day we will have term limits.

GOP are stalling and DEMS are pushing for too much...

Enough.

Instead of re-writing the bill, start stripping it of provisions that are opposed vehemently and see where that leaves us... at least this gives us a starting point.

I do see this as primarily a GOP responsibility because the DEMS are the ones who stared this effort at reform

We need this "minimum product" that BOTH sides SAY they want. Hopefully we'll be left with more than a page or two...

I see the board is filled with the usual attacks and inflammatory rhetoric from our professional regulars... great job.

That was a great debate, the Republicans brought a lot of good question and answers, I guess they could work it out as long as everyone keeps an open mind ..... Well we shall see....

And there you have it. Right from this arrogant *ssholes mouth in his closing pontification. If the repubs don't cave in and let him pass it, Obama intends to use reconciliation to cram this sh*t down our throats. I told you all before that there is only one sure way to stop this Marxist from destroying this country. That's the HOPE I'm waiting for.

OH MY GOD,,,,I JUST WOKE UP FROM THE WORST NIGHTMARE OF MY LIFE!!!!!

I dreamt I was watching a 7 hour marathon of a bunch of politicians in a big room talking. They kept talking, and talking, and talking. Well, at least I thought they were talking, their mouths were moving but all I kept hearing was Wah Wah Wah Wah Wah,,,like Charlie Browns teacher.

The scariest thing is they were acting like what they were talking about something important. They were showing papers, and graphs and stacks of what looked like huge contracts. They looked really upset even though they were trying to smile.

And what I could understand, they kept saying the same thing over and over and over. In different ways but the same thing. There was one guy in particular that kept talking more than anyone else. It seemed like he really liked to talk.

But, if you disagreed with what he was saying,,,,BOY did he get mad. He would give you that,,,LOOK. I think he thought he was more important than anyone else. And he kept saying the same thing over and over and over just like all the others.

Then I thought they were done, but it turns out they were taking a lunch break. Then they came back and started doing the same thing AGAIN!!!!!! Wah, Wah, Wah, Wah, Wah. I kept tossing and turning. I even tried to pinch myself but the nightmare continued. It seemed like an eternity.

Finally, at the end the one guy started talking again, it seemed like forever, more Wah, Wah, Wah, Wah's. Then it was over and I woke up in a cold sweat, shaking, teeth chattering. I looked around and my TV was all fuzzy like in Poltergeist.

Whew!!!! Am I glad that's over. I hope I never have another nightmare like that again.

STLMike:

And what was the tax rate on top earners prior to Reagan?

Our current tax rate is nothing compared to what it was 40 or 50 years ago. And those were the days in which America saw its most prolific growth.

Then again, that was before our industrial base was shipped overseas...

This health bill is important for the Dems. They will be able to tax the rich soon as it is passed, revenue will raise big time money

Daniel,

What a bunch of uninformed hillbillies you fascist right-wingers are. You don't have a clue as to what provisions are actually in the bill. The bill calls for fines to be levied on those who do not get healthcare insurance. This amounts to a tax on the poor who are the only ones likely to go without coverage. One would think that the GOP and teabaggers would be happy with this bill seeing how it screws over the poor so much. That is what you do. What your true issues is you hate the fact that Obama is black and president.

That NIGHTMARE began with the election of Barack Obama in the fall of 2008 for most of us. He is incompetent to lead our country through this financial crisis.

HOPE and CHANGE ?

Yeah, I HOPE the American people will CHANGE the balance of power in Washington this fall, and again in 2012.

If the President and Congress are serious about reforming healthcare, why don't we just make it simple. The healthcare enacted should cover all citizens including the President and members of Congress. They should not enjoy a seperate healthcare which gives benefits not found and obtainable by all Americans. In the alternative, give all citizens the same health care the President and Congress has. We clear have a system in which our "leaders" take benefits we "commoners" are not entitled to.

Most Americans in the 60 -70 % area support a public option. They oppose this bill without it. And the mandate idea which is idiotic is a Republican idea. Wish the Senate would have the balls to remove it. Clearly we have some brave Dems in the House, now we just need some in the Senate. One thing the media always ignores is that the Republican's approval ratings are far lower than the Dems. It's really up to the independents and what they'll do. The Republicans have prevented Congress from doing anything with total abuse of the tarantino. So at the end of the year and the 2010 elections.. it's basically do you want more of the same Republican stop motion or should we kick whats basically a Conservative Senate out. Obama has gone way way beyond trying to push for bipartisanship, the Republicans though simply won't have it.

The first Tuesday of this November can't come fast enough!

reseachplz, will you please quit this "the gop proved beyond a shadow of doubt, they are own by Ins company" bullsh!t and get a clue. The Democrats are the ones throwing 30+ million new customers at the insurance companies and dictating that people must have a certain minimum level, aka minimum premium, of coverage to be a "qualifying" policy free from fines and penalties as well as throwing hundreds of billions of dollars in "subsidies" at the insurance companies. Sounds to me like it's the Democrats who are in bed with the insurance industry not the Republicans, then again I'm sure Keith Olbermann told you otherwise so he must be right (sarcasm)!

Obama said the republicans need to do some soul searching; so does he. He waited months to even include them in the discussions, but he wants them to accept his bill w/o question. Not a good way to run a railroad!

notanymore: Your name expresses my sentiments exactly--as to your nonsensical posts. Not any more! I couldn't possibly be a racist for disliking Obama because his VP is white and is an even bigger, more pompous ass.

Hawaii2: I'm glad that it just wasn't me. What the heck was Biden rambling about? Just to hear himself talk? For a very rare moment, I started sympathizing with Speaker Botoxi as she was looking to squeeze herself between the floor and the carpeting. I don't have to be a body language expert to know that she can't stand either Reid or Biden. Two points for Botoxi, but that's all she gets.

I would liked to have been a fly on the wall (maybe not), when obama talked to the insurance companies and the pharmacuticle companies. It may explain the latest jjumps in insurance companies that were at the meeting. There has been too much NON-transparency and NON-bipartisanship for this health plan to work, however, I don't think an arrogant obama would respond well to the failure no matter how many millions of people didn't want it.

All I needed to hear was his response to McCain about transparency and the back room deals being done to confirm what I've known all along. Obama is a HUGE arrogant lying assh0le.

I guess his "we're not campaigning anoymore" remark meant "that's was a campaign lie I told to get elected and his "can't you guys see how great I am" attitude is sickening.

What a sad joke we have for a president.

"We believe we have a better idea," Alexander said. "Our views represent the views of a great number of American people." For a republican senator to say this is funny. At no time have the republicans done much other than for wall street and their friends..of course, the democrates have no claim on greatness either...neither party is capable of doing anything other than watching out for themselves. Does health care have issues, sure it does..with health care companies being able to charge whatever they want to , not really caring whether or not they are helping anyone..profit is their only concern...even though there is money dumped in the health care industry that is public tax money..Competition is a great thing when it works,,,but now there is no competition between any company..if you think there is..look at the prices of anything being sold...gas, oil, food...drugs...nowhere is there competiton...and there will not be as long as congress bows down to industry and their lobbyist. Which they do , and accept huge funding from them for whatever purpose...but this of course to congress is not a conflict of interest..however, you try the same things with any company...see where you end up .

Obama just burned a bridge that can not be reconstructed. He will be the biggest loser in the long run come November when the democrats are turned out en masse.

obama got exactly what he wanted from the 'summit', no accord and no possibility of there ever being an accord. obama will use this as his excuse to jam through his "fundamental" change of America! If the dems facilitate this massive and destructive piece of legislation they will be extinct by 2012, as will the 'progressives' (both democrat and republican) who continue to poison our government and our economy.

Your r right but this man does not want to listen to the public, there'r so many other things that need attention and help, all Obama cares about is passing and ass dumm bill, that will not take care of anyone, like I have said before with him is MY WAY OF THE HIGHWAY and everyday he keeps showing what he is, not presidential material, we need for our voices to be heard or we all in major, major, major trouble.

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) shot back: "Why not start over? The overwhelming majority of the American people want us to start over"..."This is pure unadulterated BS"...Typical of what Republicans say to discredit any actions the Democrats and the Obama administration attempt to do for positive change...

Why do the Republicans keep saying they know what the majority of Americans want...They lost the last presidential election because the majority of Americans wanted Obama to lead our government... Americans spoke loudly when most Americans elected him president...Since the election the Republicans have done nothing other than prevent him from doing anything positive...Republicans still think GW Bush was the greatest president...Be honest...We are where we are because of what happened during his leadership...The majority of Americans want things to change for the better...The Republicans keep stalling any positive change...Except for their loss in the stock markets they do not want change...And they are still trying to tell us what "most Americans want"...Let's face it, they have no idea what most Americans want..Most Americans want the far to the right vocal majority (Beck, Palin, Limbaug, Coulter, Hannity, etc.) to dissappear...Don't let them tell us what most Americans want...It is all their BS to convince the weak minded that the Republicans are still in control...

The Republicans will not take back the whitehouse in 2012 because they do not want to change the way things are...keep the old ways...AH yes return to the good old days...Obama is very intelligent and can help our country change for the better...since the beginning of civilized man it has been the rich VS the poorer...Read America's history and see the struggle against the coal, petroleum. railroad, bank, insurance, and other industries (not to mention slavery, individual servitude, sex slavery, etc.)...Wake up Americans...We are the land of the free and the brave...Fight the inequalities...The rich use government to prevent the lower classes from prospering...Could you live on $15,000/year...Of course not...Why can only the rich afford the best medical care...Good medical care should be available to all Americans...Wake up people...Or go back to the not-so-good old days...

It is time to start a grass roots movement to show support for positive change...Support our president and the good he is trying to do...Silence the lies of the far right...Most Americans know what they want and they spoke in the last presidential election...Keep the faith...Silence the far-right Republicans...

After the election this next November, the new legislature will have to begin the process to repeal the product that the voters did not want in the first place. This whole fiasco will prove to be terribly costly to all of us.

Just start showing up at the emergency room for healthcare and let the insurance companies go broke from having no customers and then just slide into single payer and it's problem solved.....cut out the middle man (the insurance companies) and reform healthcare for the people, of the people, and by the people and make it free for people and you won't have to worry about rising premiums from the insurance co.....Last week my Mom had 2 chest x-rays covered by Medicare for $38, 2 years ago I had the same 2 chest x-rays, at the same hospital for $318 covered by Blue Cross, hence my insurance covered x-rays were 10 times the cost of Medicares cost....who says the feds can't run healthcare in this country?? Case closed..Single Payer

And yet, even as he pleaded for cooperation — "actually a discussion, and not just us trading talking points" — he insisted on a number of Democratic points and acknowledged agreement may not be possible. "I don't know that those gaps can be bridged," Obama said.

There can be no cooperation when the President dismisses the truth as "talking points." This "summit" was a sham, just as I feared it would be. I have to give points to the Republicans as they finally had an opportunity to present their case where they would actually receive direct Media airtime with out the Liberal "spin." They did quite well, explaining the views of the MAJORITY of the American public. It ultimately was a waste of time since the President/Democratic agenda was to try and force the Republicans to jump on their sinking ship, not actually work towards a good solid bill that would actually REFORM only the FEW weak points in our current system. They didn't come there to listen. But the American people did listen and can see the truth for themselves. Public opinion is going to be even more galvanized against the Democrats now. No one where I live is going to vote for ANYONE (regardless of party affiliation) who supports either of these current bills. I am embarrassed that the world was able to see the behavior of our President today. But I am glad the AMERICANS could see him for what he truly is. That HOPE AND CHANGE is more like arrogant indifference to the wishes of the American public.

The filibuster rule needs to die.

It's complete nonsense that 60 votes should be required to pass anything in the Senate.

The ass o, who thinks he is king, and some of his cronies have been breathing the rarified air of DC and don't know that the public in general are pissed-off. If he keeps pushing the public might not wait for the next election to oust him and his kind. (His Nobel must have been for flim-flam)

The real proof is in the voters. Let's see just HOW many Democrats are willing to NOT be re-elected by voting for this arrogant dictator called Obama. This was how he was described by MANY seniors. These people are very strong voters and users of medicare and health isurance and are not impresssed so far with Nobama and his clowns.

I don't know where you get your bogus numbers from - probably Beck and Limbaugh!! Majority of Americans want healthcare reform and they would be perfectly happy with the Senate bill with minor tweeks! What I don't understand is 90% of the peiople who are opposing healthcare reform already are covered by private or public healthcare insurance (some even think that medicare is not a singlepayer govt. sponsored healthcare - they have beeen brainwashed to believe that every plan is private). These people will not have an iota of change in their healthcare. The healthcare reform is for uninsured americans (there is a lie that it will cover illegal immigrants), those who can't get insurance because of "insurance industry defined" preexisting conditions, drop the coverage when they reach certain reimbursement limits (in other words cap them), deny treatments when they cut their profits (conservatives say govt. will come inbetween patient and doctor; on the contrary it is the insurance companies that come between a patient and a doctor when it cuts into their profits!!), not allow competition because under the current monopaly in most concentrated markets, they can increase the premiums by whatever amount they feel like (like 39% in Cal., 25% in NY etc. etc.), pay their executives whatever they feel like so that they can buy multi-million properties, have boondoggles costing millions on the backs of hard working middle class. They have no shame or remorse. People who don't want healthcare reform are those, 1) who can afford the ballooning healthcare costs or 2) are opposed to whatever Obama wants to do under the guile of govt. takeover (lies) or just hate him.

You're right about voters not liking the bill as it is writen. Most voters would prefer a bill with a strong public option, not this watered down mess that the republican lies pushed on us. almost every proposal they want favors the insurance industry not the consumer.

Now, why don't all you people who have problems with the democratic process go over to clusterfox and blow it out your ass over there. They would love to here your tea paddy remarks and racist lies. Socialism-LIE...Healthcare take over-LIE...Death panels-LIE...Rates going up-LIE...Government control-LIE..............

Why not just admit it, you want most of your money going for profit and not your health which is what its doing now. The insurance industry is raping us with only profit in mind and not our benefit or well being.

I rememder a time when Blue Cross and Blue shield were run by a simple board of directors who made a set salary, not a profit or bonus for the money they saved the company.

If the Democrats go for the nuke option, which Reed said was not discussed, it will be the end of the Democratic Party for a long time. This whole summit was a waste of hard earned taxpayer money. Congress and Obama should be talking about JOBS and getting the American people back to work. Once back to work, they will be paying taxes and we can get out of Debt that Obama and the Democrats put us in.

McCain put it best when he said that certain states got preferential treatment to vote for this plan. Obama didn't know what to say and changed the subject. Obama and Democrats, "Stop wasting Taxpayer Money."

Blah Blah Blah..Obama said it best....

Then, he said, this fall's elections would write the verdict on who was right.

In the words of the ultimate fighting machine...

Well bub you asked for it.

You are about to see your old IL Senate seat go Red...first time in memory here in IL.

All I can say is the gov cannot balance the budget as it is. they claim 2-3% GDP in debt is a goo thing. We will be at exactly 12% at the end of Obama's 4 years as we stand now..yeah 12%. Now how the hell do you think these idiots can balance a budget with healthcare in the middle of it? They have no clue how much it will cost. I guarentee right now they do not have 51 votes to pass it. You can quote what pollsyou want but the one that is the closest is the Rassmussen polls and it says 71% of the US wants the bill scrapped and start over. Hell the CNN/Gallop does not give a majority to the Dems to keep the bill. There is no poll that does.

It is ok. Wait till the guys in DC have to deal with the riots coming their way due to no unemployment extension..due to this healthcare crap.

Personally I am sick of the whole lot. The Dems are forcing me to vote Repub an I really hate that. The two party crap has got to go.

The Republicans only care about their insurance company buddies. Republicans don't care that over 45,000 people DIE a painful deathS every year because of insurance company greed and fraud. In restrospect, just 3000 people died in 9/11. As horrible and disgusting as that was, it is far worse thsat 45,000 people die every year and you Republicans don't give a damn. Republican love of health insurance companies that KILL KILL KILL KILL far more people than 9/11.

Republican politicians are terrorists, murderers and the PRO DEATH party.

Not once, did one single republican initiate heathcare reform when Bush was screwing America. That's because Republicans love their insurance companies more than they love American people.

If you support Republicans, you are guilty of contributing to the DEATH of 45,000 people every year. Republicans are the pro death party.

Don;t you just love a party that is OK with insurance companies raising their rates by 39%.

Republicans are just plain evil and love it when Americans die. They must because we all know that insurance companies cause death.

Kevin Q: And WHO, praytell, is subsidizing your Medicare Mom's chest x-ray specials @ $19? Such a deal! We (and our children, grandchildren, etc.) will be forever indebted to China for those chest x-rays, and the Medicare system will still be in a total financial mess, thanks mostly to rampant abuse and fraud. I'm really glad for your mom. The next time you take her to dinner, have the most expensive bottle of wine in the house on me, the hard-pressed American taxpayer. You people live in a total dream world. It's unbelievable.

TJM: Your words to God's ears about November. Throw the bums out! Sweep them away!

Colonel: Yeah, I'm so glad that Obammy reminded McCain and the rest of us that the campaign was over. Hopey, changey! Bull!

I don't see much difference between paying current income tax rates plus exorbitant premiums, some on here saying $1,000-$1,500/month or more, or paying some of the tax rates listed in STLMike's post. You can call the payments anything you like, but they come out to about the same - especially after the additional high deductibles, co-pays, OOPs. U.S. per capita health care expenditure in 2007 was $7,290.

What I heard a lot of Republicans saying today was to let the market determine premiums. Well, we've been doing that for, what, 60 years now, and look where we are. No one in that room today disputed that health care costs are overtaking the GDP. No one. Insurance companies discriminate, based on health status, gender, age, among other things, raise premiums, pay fewer costs, and have a pretty good little price fixing gig going on. A bunch of people on here have been bemoaning 'government takeover', and 'death panels', but today's discussions revealed that many of the fixes in the existing bills are market action-based. Someone said that, in 2008, 70% of bankruptcies were related to health care costs. At least 45,000 Americans die for lack of health insurance every year.

Then we were reminded that the Republicans used 'reconciliation' to get PRWORA (welfare reform) passed in the 90s and that massive tax relief for the wealthy bill passed in the 00s. They have the brass to turn around and make it look to everyone like the Democrats are anticipating using some obscure procedure to pass the bill with a simple majority. I really hate it when somebody steps up and tells only half the story. It really ticks me off. So, if reconciliation is the only way to get this passed, so. be. it.

The current bills contain 147 Republican amendments, but we've all been led to believe, thanks to the rhetoric machines, that the bills are entirely the constructs of Democrats. Another 'misrepresentation of the facts' (lie) by Republicans.

While the current bills have some flaws, and everybody in the room agreed with that characterization, now that I know the above information, I'm fine with Congress passing one of these bills, given the point we've arrived at thanks to private insurance charges.

Hey Paddy...

The programs that the Republicans were on the WRONG side of are all BANKRUPT and UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Even the Civil Rights Bill was guaranteed not to use a quota system by Hubert Humphrey or he would eat the bill page by page. Get out your salt.

RogerM

Stupidity abounds in Liberal Land today.

=======================================

Roger you are incorrect. What abounds in America today is the cleaning up of the disaster from the previous eight years of bush/cheney and the rest of you cons. Go ahead, shout the rethuglicant mantra "You can't blame bush any more". Yes I can for good reason. You rethugs had control of Congress for six years of the bush administration and YOU screwed up this country royally. Afghanistan? YOU are the ones whop didn't finish the job there and let it fester for years. The deficit? YOU are the ones who ran record deficits and DOUBLED the national debt in eight years. Business regulation? YOU are the ones who believe any over sight is bad and companies will police them selves. The economy? YOUR trickle down economic policies were disproven during the Reagan adnministration. YOU complain about wealth redistribution? Hey, sunshine, we just went through the greatest wealth redistribution in Americasn history. Who precided over it? bush/cheney. I hate to tell you this but it is going to take more than a year to clean up the mess you cons left us. Maybe YOU have a short memory but I don't. Neither do a lot of other Americans.

Let's place the stupidity right where it belongs. In the laps of YOU cons who havwe done so much to destroy this country.

The confusion from the left is not worth paying attention to. Just say no to socialism, liberalism, and environmentalism. Question the clowns!

USA IS GREAT @ "I am totally supporting my mother whose only income is SS because the Government feels 600 a month is enough"

.....Ummmmm, if you are TOTALLY supporting your mother, what is that $600/mo from SS she is receiving, farm aid? Suggest you catch Mike's post at #1.30, it explains it very wel, but if you still need help connecting the dots, give us your PO Box, and I'll have my grandson send you some paper, a box of crayons, and some instructions on how to connect them.

...I'm trying to be objective in this thread, and am impressed with the logical, calm, and intelligent posts from paddy (I am NOT a liberal or DEM, I am moderate and independent). It seems most people who disagree with him can't respond in a likewise intelligent way (he did mention he paid malpractice insurance, so I would think he is a lot closer to the health care industry problem than some of the loudmouthed "experts" posting here, e.g., from:

dangstraight @ "Paddy, are your eyes brown?"

...what an infantile response!

....and Karen, what does Pelosi's looks have to do with this issue (and no, I do not like Pelosi, I loved the way Jack Cafferty on CNN tore her apart over her boondoggle trip to Copenhagen a few weeks ago).

...On the other hand, STLMike offered a very calm and intelligent rebuttal, and I can appreciate that, whether I agree or disagree, it adds to the discussion of the problem and shows how complex it really is, unfortunately, there are not enough like it, just too many schoolyard taunts of the mouth breathers among us. No wonder this country is going downhill!

I'm probably gonna be sorry for this, but progressive thinker,

where did you get your stats from????

I mean could you please post your references!!

the only 45,000 that die every year for lack of health insurance that I came up with are the voiceless aborted babies but libs don't think that's important, but please site your references...

A USA Today/Gallup survey released Thursday found Americans tilt 49-42 against Democrats forging ahead by themselves without any GOP support. Opposition was even stronger to the idea of Senate Democrats using the special budget rules, with 52 percent opposed and 39 percent in favor.

I bet they didn't ask just the uninsured.

Generally, polls show Americans want solutions to the problems of high medical costs, eroding access to coverage and uneven quality. But they are split over the Democrats' sweeping legislation, with its $1 trillion, 10-year price tag and many complex provisions, including some that wouldn't take effect for eight years.

Which, here again, is our citizenry wanting our cake and eating it too.

At this point, the system is broken. One- a firm culture is in place on the right, where the right preys upon white ignorance, while continually selling an agenda that rewards their Corporate buddies, steered agenda that only points to pushing more tax money further into the hands of the wealthy. Two- Americans don't deserve to vote on anything while its representative body is only interested in debating points for the sake of being a good debater- the ultimate American p!ssing contest. That's why the Democrats and the President should largely ignore the right, and if the voters this year and 2012 don't like it, so be it. Let the new GOP take the ball, but it will be there turn to make tough choices, and the middle class and poor will be the vicitms of their leadership. Even more so. Reap what you sow. But the GOP is still America's undoing.

The Republicans will NEVER EVER get on board with healthcare because they care more about corporate fascism and astronomical profits at the expense of human lives. They are "pro-life" when it comes to abortion but could give a rat's ass about life post-birth. It's perfectly alright for you to go bankrupt and die.. just as long as you don't cut into their stock-market dividends that they reap in from all of the companies and industries that are trying to kill us....Big Pharma, Big Religion, Big Agribusiness, Big Insurance, Big Tobacco, Big Chem, Big GMO Frankenfood, Big Oil and Big Anti-Environment interests.

Republicans are the excrement on the bottom of the shoe of humanity.

SOLUTION... pass the bill and limit it to everyone BUT Republicans. Ban them from participating in any of the plans or receiving ANY benefits. Let them fend for themselves when their insurance companies cancel their plans, when they lose their jobs and can't get insurance on their own, when they or their family members can no longer get insurance because of pre-existing conditions, when they're facing financial ruin and foreclosure and astronomical premiums. Let them come crawling and begging then...... and then kick them back into the gutter with a smile and a " Tough Luck Charlie... you had your chance".

Obama does not care.....PERIOD.....If anyone had any doubts before today about what level he would stoop to to get what he wants, they need wonder no longer. He is willing to throw his loyal Democratic pets under the bus if they will simply supply him with Obamacare using the backdoor approach.

If Obama is so desperate as to destroy the political lives of his alleged friends, is there any doubt as to how little he really cares about the average American or this country? 2012 can't come quick enough so we can put and end to this Impostor In Chief. Bush had his faults to be certain. McCain may not be as intellectual as Obama, but one thing that was not in question was his loyalty to this country and it's citizens. Obama is in this for himself and himself only, this much is apparent. Perhaps if we get lucky he will do something, anything, that will be grounds for impeachment and removal from office. But alas we probably won't get that lucky.

I can't wait to see who he blames if this latest attempt to ram Obamacare down our throats fails.

Paddy:

Lucky if family physicians make 100,000 per year they put up with so much c-----------from the insurance companies, taking as many patients per day as possible, and for what? 8 to 10 years of Medical School, or maybe more for Specialists.

Many of the doctors I know have gone into other fields, creating their own innovative jobs. They are making TONS of money.

There are too many regulations on doctors, too much cost for malpractice insurance, and too many people who want to sue for a junk lawsuit. It was most likely their own fault. It keeps the lawyers busy.

Yes, Medicine, practiced under the Health Care Reform Bill if passed is going to give us less than mediocre doctors, less pre med students who want to go to college.

All the way around a Health Care Bill must be stopped. It will affect all of us, every single person. You may be turned away from the ER also. Lines, and lines of people waiting to work in an appt. for a serious illness.

This is why I can not tolerate Barack Obama. He is much like a Dictator, in the fact that he will take no from the 99 per cent who do not want his screwball idea health care bill.

None of the numbers add up, and neither does he.

Am I going to Collapsed for telling the truth. Most of the Liberals can't fathom how this Bill is going to not work in their favor.

It's the ARROGANCE, and assumption that is working the people up into a frenzy.

Just a bit punky with your esteemed fellow lawmakers....ehhh Mr. Obama ???

SO, THE EXALTED ONE HAD HIS SUMMIT AND AS USUAL NOTHING WAS ACCOMPLISHED!!!!

Well, I shouldn't say NOTHING. Obama got to talk more than anyone, and he let us know why too. He's the President.

Yes he is. But this Summit was a failure. And it's because of him. This was just another huge photo-op for Obama to hear himself jabber on as usual and be on TV. Hell he was more worried about that than he was about the American citizens concern about health care when he said,,,

"I don't know if it's interesting watching it on TV," he responded.

The answer to that is,,,NO!!!! Hell most of the networks stopped covering it after the lunch break because no one could stay awake. This was a spew-fest. Both sides using a slot of prime-time coverage to just regurgitate what we've been hearing for 11 months. They should have just had a pot-luck and chatted about their most recent vacations. Something that most American's CAN'T AFFORD NOWADAYs!!!!!

Lots of pomp and circumstance, rhetoric, talking points and BULLS**T from both sides. This is not just legislation for some community project, this is legislation to effectively alter our nations history. Both sides, especially the Democrats, were effectively uninformative. Can someone tell me why the HELL did we have to hear about cleft palates, tumors and the most morbid account of someones mother having to use someone elses DENTURES??????

This is just another example of how ineffective this government is. Talking down to us with these stupid sob stories. We understand there are a lot of people having hardships in our country, but there are many more that aren't. The effort should have been to streamline this massive 2,700 page government takeover of the largest private industry in the world. This demonizing of the best health care system in the world must STOP. The effects on the economy are obviously significant, but not more significant than 17 MILLION Americans unable to find a job.

The most important issue regarding this reform wasn't even addressed. TAXES!!! The fact that this monstrous bill will end up costing over $2 TRILLION DOLLARS is a given to those of us who understand how incompetent our government is in fiscal matters. The most important concern most have is how will this thing be paid for. How much will taxes eat into the American families and businesses pocket?

NO MENTION WHATSOEVER!!!

I could have slept through most of this six hour Chat-A-Thon. I wanted to know, more than anything ,how will this affect taxes which will affect our nations economy. Who will pay how much. How much will the middle class be charged? Even though it was promised not to be. If ANY of you believe the middle class won't get slapped with a significant tax to fund this you're irreparably delusional. But in fairness, I guess when we don't get the CBO evaluating costs any longer, we'll just have to trust our politicians.

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!

Trust our politicians. Like we trusted them for the past 70 years that got us into this economic Armageddon. Our economy is crashing. The European Union is teetering on collapse. Consumer confidence falling more than ever in history. Housing numbers dropping like a rock. Foreclosures skyrocketing. A totally unstable stock market. Our once untouchable Bond rating in jeopardy. Debt that will take decades to repay. Hell, maybe it's better they DON'T tell us how much the taxes will be.

We need to have SOME hope left.

I favor healthcare reform, BUT as a person that is involved in legislative and medical political committees in this effort, I can promise you that the cost of implementing this is going to be astronomical and most doctors will not be able to afford the IT requirements being planned. The idea of medical home and electronic records, labs, RX, appointments, coordination of care done electronically is prohibitively expensive. We are entering an enterprise that may be biting off more than we can chew. If the goal is to make healthcare more affordable and less of a drag on the economy, we better try it in stages instead of all at once. If the task is overwhelming, it may take decades to reconstruct the system we are about to implode. What are we going to do in the meantime when the healthcare system is in shock?! Too much too fast is a formula for failure that we cannot afford. The carve outs are unfair. The phase ins are too slow. Appeasing all of the special interests guts the purpose of doing this. Think and plan before you leap!!!!!

Only one side has an idea that's even viable. Push it through and make changes as necessary. You don't get a perfect recipe on the first try, but if you never try you will never have a recipe.

The Summit was just like a Corporate meeting. They chit chat throwing ideas back and forth getting nothing done. Obama did it to soothe the Republican Congress and Americans who are Conservative, Independent, Democrat, the Tea Party Movement, all in order to say he "TRIED", but they wouldn't go along with the deal. The sympathy game.

Americans are too smart for this trickster. We will not tolerate being told we have to swallow this 2700 page document. It was next to him, used as a prop. (Propaganda).

No, No one wants this Bill. How can they ever think they they are the Dictators, and forget who voted for them.

The punishment for them is, no vote for Democrats next time round.

Do you think it will sink in they will be among the UNEMPLOYED? Summit meeting for this, too. Aye!

It is too gross to think about.

I happened to be watching when Sen. McCain listed all of the "deals" that benefitted some states, and talked about the lobbiests involved and the lack of transparancy, all of which Obama promised would NOT happen in his Administration. McCain's point was that any bill should benefit ALL Americans, not just those in certain states whose reps. made deals and sold their votes.

THEN...

I was shocked to hear Obama's reply. He said to McCain (after McCain reminded Obama about the promises Obama made) that "the campaign is over." HUH??? That, to me, said that he was saying, yes I said those things during the CAMPAIGN, but now the campaign is over. And a sort of "in your face" comment to McCain, I won, you lost. Live with it.

The arrogance of this man, Obama, is jaw dropping.

I got a form letter today from Bill Clinton..or so it was stamped. Opened with "Dear Fellow Democrat"...say WHAT? I am NOT a Democrat, neither "dear" or "fellow". It said in the letter that the Democrats have PASSED A HEALTH CARE REFORM BILL. Ummmm...WHAT? Isn't that a little TELLINGLY PREMATURE? That SAYS (to me) that the Dems. will surely slide/shove, call it what you like, this bill by this reconciliation thing, and they have no intention to listen to what the people want. Bottom line....this so-called "summit" today was a sham. Like we didn't know that from the get-go.

Just shows Obama to be a POOR LEADER and prejudice in favor of his fellow democrats and deaf to anyone ANYONE who opposes the SOB ,,, so we tried to fix the leak and they said its our way or no way ,,, OK NO WAY JOSE.

Obama and his fellow Democrats made it clear that they want to continue to pursue their own sweeping measure, he said. "What we think he ought to do is start over."

henry jacobs MD JD

Dr. Jacobs, thank you for the breath of fresh air.

As a retired Family Practitioner, recently recruited BACK into the system, I understand your concerns completely. This legislation is just TOO aggressive. Most people don't understand how fragile our health care system is.

The sheer scope and breacth of this massive bill is absolutely frightening. Most people don't realize we are already experiencing a huge shortage of primary care physicians with estimates of losing another 40,000 in the next 5-10 years. We are losing over 10% of all doctors in the next 1-3 YEARS!

Why?

Bureauacracy. When in the course of a 12 hour day, we spend 3 hours doing paperwork, or even if it happens on-line work that we're not reimbursed for, the reason becomes simple. The tremendous amount of debt, usually about $150,000, that a new physician carries into the beginning of his career which only starts in his late 20's or early 30's is daunting to say the least. Add to that the constant threat of frivolous lawsuits hanging over your head and this is NOT the Fairy Tale career most think it is. Many qualified undergraduate students laugh at me when I ask them if they are interested in going into medicine. And realistically,,,,I don't blame them. If this bill passes, not only from the fact that politicians will be in charge, there will be huge problems in manpower to staff the countries needs.

Yet absolutely NO discussion is being made regarding the MOST important part of this whole health care reform. You CAN'T have health care without doctors, regardless of how much you try to improve it. This is one of the main reasons this current Democrat bill will fail. Either now or in 5 years, when there is a massive loss of physicians, the consequences will be staggering. There is no way the system will be able to succeed now even if the current doctors stay in practice if there is all of a sudden an entry of 20-30 MILLION more patients.

It's simple supply side economics. But this is what happens when you have politicians trying to play doctor behind closed doors trying to reinvent something they have no clue about. Add the cuts in Medicare/Caid and all the other cuts, taxes and regulations and this bill is a true recipe for disaster. This is what happens when you have the blind (government) leading the blind (consumer).

I agree that health care needs reform and I too believe an incremental approach as the Republicans propose is the only way fiscally and to assure supply is there. But most Americans, especially those of the Liberal mentality want it done right now.

Remember, it takes 11-16 years after high school to produce one physician. What will happen in the meantime is what needs to be a concern for all.

Aggie:

What else would you expect from Obama. He is brash, brazen, arrogant, and puts people down. He is the Superior one.

John McCain did a good job today of retort back to him. John McCain implied that Obama is campaigning all year long, since the day O entered office. Why is O so insecure?

John McCain is a Veteran of War and a Veteran of Politics. He is older than this kid, who has NO experience, just sasses Americans back. He is shameful and the most undignified US President we have had in the last 60 years.

O will not make it for a 4 year term. He knows this. He's going to screw up the agenda of the Constitiution and America, leaving his own stuff behind. It will leave a trail so smelly, and we will have to deal with his Giant mistakes for years to come.

Who voted for this child man?

There will be no accord on health care because of the arrogance of the president and his cronies in congress. Despite overwhelming opposition from the American public the democrats refuse to listen...again. These people aren't smart enough to govern and thankfully some will be lame ducks in a few months.

"Democrats looking hard at 51-vote shortcut for health reform"

"Shortcut known as reconciliation would allow bill to pass with 51 votes"

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/02/25/health.care.democrats.reconciliation/index.html?hpt=T2

Still looking for a way to bypass the checks and balances for something the country does not want and certainly does not need in it's current financial situation.

Are still trying to claim that they're listening to the voters? They couldn't even keep that charade up for a month. How many millions did they waste over the past couple of weeks during their laughable publicity tour for the "stimulus"? November can not arrive quickly enough.

Election, 2010

Excerpt and link to article from WSWS website:

On eve of health care summit

Obama courts US corporate elite

By Tom Eley

25 February 2010

In in a bid for corporate support on the eve of his televised health care summit with Republicans, President Obama on Wednesday told top CEOs gathered at the Business Roundtable that his health care reform would improve the competitiveness of their firms.

Obama used the event to reassert his pro-business credentials, all but grovelling before an organization whose CEOs head firms that control half of all US corporate profits.

“Contrary to the claims of some of my critics, I am an ardent believer in the free market,” Obama assured his audience. “I believe businesses like yours are the engines of economic growth in this country. You create the jobs. ... I firmly believe that America’s success in large part depends on your success.”

Far from creating jobs, US corporations have shed them by the millions since 2007, while the past year has made abundantly clear that the success of major corporations has nothing to do with the well-being of the American people. The former have enjoyed enormous profits as a result of trillions of dollars in federal money pumped into the finance markets, while the population as a whole continues to suffer through the worst social crisis since the Great Depression.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/feb2010/obam-f25.shtml

What, in God's name. is wrong with you people. We can ALL agree that health care now costs 1 out 6 dollars in our pockets on average. That means that those of us that work hard every week to earn an average income of $50,000 in 2007 paid 8,333.00 for healthcare. Those that made $500,000 paid the same $8.333.00. The corporate Ceo's that made $50 million payed the same $8,333.00. The poor family that worked just as hard for $23,000 would pay the same $8,333.00.

The wealthy can afford healthcare with no problem. They're happy. The average American can pay for healthcare if he sacrifices a new tv, his vacation and hopes of buying a better home or car. The poor slob that works hard every week must choose between feeding his family or watching one of his sick kids die for lack of health care. What kind of American spirit supports such a system. Without serious reform now, this situation will soon double or triple. It's happening for many as we speak. Will you wait until your only choice will be to either feed your child or watch him die of illness? The very same Republicans that claim to have better ideas NOW offered nothing but full support to the very healthcare providers, insurance companies and big pharma that resulted in 1/6 of our economy devoted to healthcare when they were in power. They are in the pockets of the healthcare industry. They have no problem if healthcare costs increase to 1/5, 1/4, or 1/3 of our economy. Their take will increase proportionately. It will actually cost them less as we suffer even more. Their lies and fearmongering are as transparent as the WMD's, nuclear threats and terrorist association with Iraq that proved to be false. What kind of fools are we?

Isn't it interesting that MSNBC hasn't had information about todays healthcare summit plastered all over the front page. Guess that tells everyone pretty much how the meeting went today!Following today's so-called "bi-partisan" meeting on healthcare reform, if there is anything that came out of this meeting and stood out like a neon light glowing in the dark for all to see, it was the fact that responsible healthcare reform is not about a Democrat or Republican issue. Instead, it is a Liberal issue. In years past, true Republicans and true Democrats could always find a way to come together. I'm a conservative Republican although I believe there are still a few responsible Dems still left in the party. Unfortunately, the true Democratic party has been taken hostage by a bunch of arrogant radical liberal morons (lots of them) and the top of the heap is Obama, Reid and Pelosi. There was a bunch more of them at the meeting today that fall into the same heap - Liberals. Unfortunately, these bastards have tied themselves to the name "Democrat" instead of what they should be called - Liberals! Due to their ideology, Liberals cannot work on a bi-partisan level because these arrogant, opinionated as*wipes are completely incapable of doing so - it is "their way or the highway" regardless of other opinions. What liberal ideology could have been on display more today than that of the moron Potus. Obama, Pelosi, Reid and their stupid Washington drones doesn't care what We The People say we want. Their primary goal is, and has been in every thing they have done thus far, nothing more than another major power grab and an attempt to grow the federal government even more. Let's call these liberals what they really are - they are liberal socialist bastards, not Democrats! So, this fight is not about Republicans against Democrats. This fight is about Republicans, Democrats, Independents, and others with no particular party affiliation who happens to want to preserve American tradition, morals and values and hold onto the American Dream for our children and grandchildren against a pack of Liberals who want to take over America. If ever Americans need to come together to save this country, it is right now. Enough of the bickering. Our enemy is well defined and it is time to kick these as*holes out of congress asap and unless Obama chooses to listen to the American people and respond accordingly, then we need to impeach his liberal a*s. He may be a great orator but actions speak much louder than words and everyday, his actions continue to expose him for what he is. Hopefully, those people who can't seem to get past being mesmerized by his golden oracles might actually figure out what this guy is really all about.

I don't care what Obama says any more, no more! We are not a socialist state. We do not want our government sleeping with us in our beds. Enough! And if Brown in Massachusetts doesn't get on the band wagon, he can be impeached. We don't want or need our government running our lives. People are born, they live and they die. Death is as much a part of life on this planet as is birth. Further...

AMERICA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY, IT IS A CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC, MAJORITY DOESN'T RULE!!!!! If President Obama thinks he can manipluate this issue without all of our Representitives being involved, he is saddly mistaken and stands to have millions of Americans coming to Washington to tell him so face to face. It will be peaceful but it will be adament! I am saying NO! No! I, and millions like me, we are not going to go along with the plan for the world being run by the banking system. We are fed up with the lies and the secrecy and the plans we do not agree with being stuffed down our throats!

Further, the "War on Terror" is done! Done! We have been at war for 9 going on 10 years. I do not agree with having cameras on every street corner. I do not agrewe with utilizing UHF and VHF frequencies for such an endevor. I don't want to pay for it and I don't want to be subjected to it. I have nothing to hide, therefore, I DON"T NEED to be watched. I want my privacy. I don't want someone looking over my shoulder 24/7. After much consideration and many years of studying the issues of the day, I am convinced this war on terror, where there will never be an end because there is no specific enemy, is a war for control. I don't want to allow the banking system to run my life. THINK! Whoever makes the money makes the rules! If you live on credit, you are feeding this beast! It has to stop! not tomorrow but NOW!~

Let the 'chips" fall where they may!

Anybody actually watching the proceedings today understands two things: 1) Democratic leadership does not understand economics or finance and like to hear themselves talk; 2) Any reasonable call for reform, cost containment or improving healthcare at a lower cost to Americans is a joke. Our president is not a leader, he is an egomaniac. Given any fact, BO just dismisses it and calls the person an idiot. So, once again, we have to deal with the fact that our president and congress are out of touch and will trade barbs back and forth while acting like they are doing something. The issue is COST. Nothing stated from the Dem side addresses it yet. Statements were made from both sides on reducing cost and were buried by pompous politicians. If this is what YOU want, then keep voting this morons back into office and allow them to flush your future down the toilet while they take the bribes and kickbacks to keep them in office. For once, the bloggers need to pull their head out and realize you are being used.

Wow, alot of response. Anyway, here is my 2 cents. Mass has a state run insurance program, and yet no one is pointing to them on what a great success they are. In fact, they just voted in a republican in a long held dem state. Says alot. All I heard from Obumbles and company, is I don't care what you want, I'm going to get my way. All I have to say is, Good Bye in 2012.

Healthcare is not an entitlement, it is a necessity, and it is a right! Every developed nation except the USA and China provide healthcare to their people! The chinese pray not to get sick because they can not afford healthcare, uninsured americans pray not to get sick as well! I am going to work in the UK for a year as a nurse to experience their healthcare system. The tax rate is 20%. They have great healthcare and great public transit! We pay more than that and what do we have to show for it? Read the book, "The Healing of America" by T R Reid...it will help the debate make sense!

Jan:

Why do people from all ends of the earth come to the United States of America to get the best health care and treatment available?.

Is it because they like to go to McDonald's, the fries, visit Disneyland, or see the Eiffel Tower.

Get real. You know that we have health care no other country can even dream of having. We take all foreigners into our Medical Care System for cancer treatments, unusual diseases, the best Specialists in the World, and for Diagnosis.. They live, while in their countries with Socialized Medicine, they would ultimately DIE or never get to see a doctor.

Be thankful that our Medical Care here is the very best. Don't wish for something like the Health Care Bill to put us back to the days of Native American Witch Doctors, and Voodoo cures..

Putting everyone in the same risk pool just makes sense. How that is accomplished and who is accomplishing it seems to raise some tension.

So combine the risks and not the entities. Now open all to the free market. Do away with government programs, ensure people through private insurance companies. Now government will be financing a large portion of the bill so they should absolutely be able to regulate. You can't have a mandate and then put everyone at the will of insurance companies. Give them room for competition and creativity. Combining homeowners with health or automobile with health etc. etc.

This way you get complete coverage and it stays in the free market.

Base policies on percentage of health bill. 70%, 80%, 90% etc.

After automobile insurance was mandated did you see a lack of anything? No you seen an exponential growth of insurance carriers.

And its regulated.

Well the way I see it is a hand was extended and there were many Republican idea's that were in the bill 147 of them and there was only a few points they did not agree on, now it's going to pass one way or the other, they can try to work out the differences or the Republicans can just take a hard stance, the Republicans wants the entire bill scrapped because of their slight differences how smart does that sound, they have a month and a half to work through this if not the democrats will use the reconciliation, and if anyone was not really watching Bush and the Republicans used it twice to reduce the taxes for the RICH, and do you really think most Americans was not against that, so it is what it is .......

Well the health care premiums in a lot of states have just gone up, So I guess bickering over the last 14 months has bare fruit, a higher premium for a lot of Americans ...... Yea lets scrap the whole bill and argue another year, I wonder how much it would go up in that year .... Nice job, I'm sure every American appreciates having to pay more, come election day it could be really different from what people think, there are going to be a lot of angry Americans that now have to pay more for their health care ....

Since MSNBC hasn't seen fit to share this, I will;

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/14/paul-hipp/rocker-viral-video-mocks-us-37th-best-health-care-/

We are #37!!! There was a time Americans dfidn't settle for anything below #1. Now we seem to be happy w/ the 37th ranked health care system in the world. Yeah, we should all be very proud of that!!!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVgOl3cETb4

Gramps, don't believe the "we are 37th" talking point. Being ranked by a pro-socialist agency is not good data. Look at non-agended sources and the picture will be much different.... We have higher survival rates for many serious illnesses than those 36 other countries that are ranked above us. We also lead in research and development. Are you willing to give this up to improve our ranking in the Socialist movement. I'M NOT!!!!!

I am shocked at those who believe the Democrat's talking points. You need to re-examine just what they are selling to you. Are you really willing to dramatically raise the cost of your health care, possibly lose you employer-sponsored health plan, have the govt. have access to your bank accounts, and ration your care? Just so they can try to insure MOST people and ILLEGALS? That is what you are signing up for. I will not sign up for any bill that will cause me to lose my employer-sponsored plan. If either of these plans are approved, that is exactly what will happen. We will be forced to pay the penalty, which is the only thing we will be able to afford. (Of course, that is not going to benefit our employees, who will now have to pay 100% of the premium, if they can afford it.) The govt. is not going to be able to subsidize the 122-178% increase our company will see if these bills are passed. That is just to keep the premiums the same as what we are paying now. They are promising a decrease, so they would need to send more. Please step away from the kool-aid and stop trying to hurt your fellow Americans by supporting plans that will hurt 100% of the American public.

You obviously haven't suffered from a chronic illness or needed to be hospitalized. I don't need talking points. I'm very familiar w/ health care in this country. It sucks!!!! I have VA, Medicare & private insuraqnce & it still sucks!!!

Speaking of talking points, access to my bank accounts, rationing of care, etc? Please, leave the bs at home!!!!

Gramps, I am a (kidney) cancer survivor and the chief financial officer at the company I work for. (OH and I cared for a family member who was on dialysis for 9 years.) Who is talking BS now? My Mother is on Medicare and her care is rationed. She needs cataract surgery and is still waiting. She is almost to the point where she can no longer read music, she can't drive after dark, yet she still has to wait. She actually has Dad's retirement coverage as well, but they follow whatever Medicare dictates, so she can't go thru them to get the surgery either. This is the kind of care these bills will force upon millions MORE than are now. Fix Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and the VA BEFORE moving forward with anything else. They are only making the current problems incredibly larger than it is now. Let alone, they don't have the money to fund what they are doing NOW.

USA Rogue, thanks.

It seems that the planners are convinced that primary care docs can be replaced with aprns, the new 'nurse-doctors', PA's etc that are quicker to create and easier to come by. the high standards of premed, med schools and board certification are considered unnecessary by the planners. I PERSONALLY DO NOT THINK THAT DOCTORS ARE EXPENDABLE IN A HEALTHCARE SYSTEM!!! paying primary care docs better, loan forgiveness etc to encourage more kids to become primary care docs is a better assurance that care will be better than lowering the education level of "providers". the idea that medicine is somehow formulaic or a simple recipe is naive. it takes academic excellence and intellect to be a good doc. I do agree that we should be doing a better job educating these smart young potential docs in the humanities and social sciences.

Sad summit. Everyone talked in grand general terms and few gave specifics. Just political B/S.

I do not like the current bill, but the Democrats now have no options other than pass the Senate bill because they have pissed off everyone they possibly can already and going into the election with nothing is the kiss of death. They have to show some conviction.

I personally think we should do these primary things to reduce costs.

1. Offer low cost insurance policies that do not provide 'desperate measures', such as, no expensive organ transplants. Call it 'god's will clause' or 'your time has come clause' or whatever.

2. Free primary care and birth control to everyone that does not include abortion.

3. Allow foreign companies to enter the US health insurance market. If I/T jobs can be shipped to India and China to lower costs, then we should be allowed to purchase low cost heath insurance from companies in China and India.

Kevin - I'm going to burst your fantasy world balloon.

Just start showing up at the emergency room for healthcare and let the insurance companies go broke from having no customers and then just slide into single payer and it's problem solved.....cut out the middle man (the insurance companies) and reform healthcare for the people, of the people, and by the people and make it free for people and you won't have to worry about rising premiums from the insurance co.....Last week my Mom had 2 chest x-rays covered by Medicare for $38, 2 years ago I had the same 2 chest x-rays, at the same hospital for $318 covered by Blue Cross, hence my insurance covered x-rays were 10 times the cost of Medicares cost....who says the feds can't run healthcare in this country?? Case closed..Single Payer

Okay here's how that works. That $38 is what the fed will pay for it. Sounds good for everyone right? Add the $38 to the $318 and divide by two. Yeah, that's right the charge is probably $178. But that is not what they need.

Rush Limbaugh does not have health insurance. When he was in the Hospital at Christmas, he paid his bill in full in cash after they discounted his bill by 35%. So of that $178 35% of the charge is room to negotiate discounts with insurance companies. That means that the x-ray charge should be $116 including 5% for unpaid bills and 20% for profit margin. Final true cost would be $87. That means medicare/medicaid is shorting the medical community $39 for each set of xrays.

If you go single payer and under that system the government pays only $38 per x-ray set, then the business loses money and closes. Now you have a shortage of medical equipment and medical professionals because they will quit OR a black market for medical care will occur.

If you really want affordable medical care:

1) Get the government out of it - it creates inequities that inflate the cost for those not on a government program. If government takes over then only the most charitable will stay in business creating huge shortages of care.

2) Get the Lawyers out of the exam and operating rooms. 30 - 40% of medical costs are for unnecessary tests. 5% and doubling every 3-4 years is medical settlements and legal costs.

3) Get back to honest numbers for service costs. Insurance negotiating has forced medicine to inflate true costs to get what they need. A true cost for services should be actual costs plus 5 - 10% of costs, not 35% to 400%.

Before Thursday's gathering I thought Repugs were just uninformed. After watching John Bonehead and Mitch McDumbell and their supporting cast, I am now convinced that they are just a bunch of scumbags who's only concern is for themselves and the wealthy. They proved that their one and only desire is to see Obama fail, per instructions from their spiritual leaders, Glenn Beck and Rush Limp#@%*&#.

If the polls actually show that a majority of people don't like the idea of health care reform, it is because there are still just barely enough people getting their coverage paid by their employers. Why would these people and all the government employees, including Senators and Representatives care about reform? Most don't even know what their insurance costs. Those covered by Medicare are only concerned because of the scare tactics employed by the insurance companies and the Repugs.

Think ... people ... think!!!!

If you're really concerned about the country becoming socialist, let's fire the US Postal Service, the DOT and let's get rid of all the Military Services.

Kind of hard to sign on when your input is said to be nothing more than a obstruction and we intend to go ahead and pass this without your wisdom.....Hairy Reed claims he never ever said anything about reconciliation but the opposition couldn't stop talking about it(another big fat lie).

First of all these turkeys called jackasses are not going to make their class of elites accept this plan if it is put inplace, the American public who has more brains than all of them has stated loud and clear, "We cannot afford this scam and we are not paying for it." and just because this inept inexperienced UN Credentialed clown in the position of POTUS wants to practice hysterics in public is no reason for those we expect to maintain your rights and liberties to give this clown anything. He certainly isn't going to comply with anything legal and there doesn't seem to be anyone willing to call him out, he just shoots off his mouth a lot.

So seeing as how the Jackass Party wants it all one way and BOzo wants to pout, it looks to be that the Republicans are going to have continue to be called the non reconcilitators...breaks my heart.

George...typical liberal spew....attack the Republicans and degrade the general public by calling them too stupid to know better. Of course, you know better than everyone else here and are educated in all areas and know everyone that doesn't want this bill to pass and their reasons. The are simply too stupid or undiformed to understand the bill....Right. Get off your high horse and add something to the debate.

Willowbrook, Medicare is not holding up your mother's cataract surgery. Such surgery is covered!!! It may be her Medicare Advantage plan that is not run by the govt but by private insurers who get hefty subsidies from the govt!!!!

She is not on Advantage, and Medicare tells the Doctor the stage the cataracts have to be for Medicare to cover the procedure. If she wanted to pay for the procedure, she could have it now. But, like most Seniors, she has a limited budget. The stupid thing is, the procedure has gone down in price as technology has approved. Medicare is responsible for delaying or minimizing care for many other health problems as well. Try having a leg amputated,you have to leave the hospital in less than 72 hours. (So the Hospital gets the maximum allowed and so that Medicare doesn't have to pay for Transitional care at the nursing home.) I could go on and on Gramps. We need true reform, but not the govt. take-over these bills represent.

Well, so much for the new concentrated focus on the economy...throw some money at it, talk a lot of BS, and lets get back to our health care reform. What a bunch of misguided lunatics.

YES, I AM refering to ALL those IDIOTS on the LEFT!!!

What a circus. This was about a bunch of issues, few of which were about health care reform. The Republicans were hardly allowed to speak at all and they were prohibited from rebuking the many outrageous Democratic claims. The Democrats were allowed to speak for over twice as log as the Republicans, and even Obama, who was acting somewhat as a moderator spoke longer that all the Republicans combined. The real agenda was an attempt to portray the Republicans as the bad guys which I think generally failed. This “summit” was a complete waste of time.

Henry Jacobs, MD, JD.

Thank you for the look inside from a real doctor. You know what it will be like. My nephew is an ER doc, and the stories I hear about future Health Care would make a person's hair stand up.

Yes, the PA's have taken over for the doctors. They ARE the doctors, having to deal with one ourselves who apparently knows more than the MD. Advice, and sometimes giving advice over the phone, when the patient should be seen their doctor.

This is just the beginning of a lazy and reckless Health Care System. Some of the doctors we go to, seem to be practicing this Reform already. We got turned away by many docs who could not diagnose Pneumonia and Asthma after 5 months! It was exhausting. ER finally did all the right exams, and solved the mystery. Crazy?

You are also have a Law Degree. Success to you! Hard worked and dedication.

We need ""Wellness Centers (Call it whatever). A facility close to a hospital with a 24 hour Doctor Staff. This way you can skip the ER and go to a Doc for a couple stitches or other not serious illnesses. Inevitably reducing size of hospitals and expense.

Doctor groups in my experience are on top.

In my humble opinion doing nothing is much worse than doing the wrong thing and learning along the way (not that the bill is wrong or right).

Hawaii2, thank you for your kind remarks. ER's or ED's as they prefer to be called, are an abject failure at humane care!!!!!! I can relate at least 10 stories about ER care that was JUST AWFUL. BUT, hospitals pay their CEO's and their assistants more than it costs for the entire ER staff!!! Instead of paying the CEO a seven figure multiple, hire ten more ER Docs!!!! Hire ten more nurses!!! It is embarrassing to me to walk into the ER and see elderly people on stretchers in the hallway crying in pain or on a bedpan!!! The wellness centers around here have morphed into private practices of doctors who are owned by the hospital. They don't do urgent care anymore. Healthcare reform would provide a great deal of relief of pain and suffering and fear if the only thing it did was to improve ER and urgent care. Trying to fix everything in one pass is a TOTAL FANTASY.

For once, Obama is correct....this fall's elections will indeed demonstrate who is right and wrong about ramrodding America with change we clearly don't want in the form it is being dictated. When I see House and Congress join the same health care plan they seek to impose on us, then I might believe they actually have a real plan that can work.

just looking at the post its obvious that Obama is a great divider of our country Good or Bad. But this is not what America needs Now. We need a president that unites us into one country again.

For no matter what one party wants the other doesn't. and on important issues like Health Care and Immigration you need more than only 50% of the Vote to represent America.. Put these issues to the people and not our corrupted politicians for a vote.. We do not trust our elected representation no longer. Power has corrupted them

You seem as qualified, if not more qualified, than any member of Congress. And a heck of a lot more rational.

An actual donkey or elephant would be more qualified than our members of congress.

Are You awake:

Way to deflate my ego, man. ;-)

Here 314159 had me thinking of aspirations of becoming a senator. God knows I have enough skeletons in my closet to qualify!

Listening to this so called "summit", one thing rang my bell. The Republicans point out that 1 in 3 dollars spent on health care is wasted. They talk about hundreds of billions is wasted through fraud regarding Medicare. I find it so funny how everyone agrees with the Republicans including Obama. In fact, Obama even stated that by reducing fraud in Medicare, the government would be able to do more. Do more? You mean spend more money? Grow government more? How about paying down our debt? Obama should have come out and said just that, but, he won't because he is ALL about growing our government through more and more government control. Control that moves Obama more towards absolute power. What a joke!

I am not a College Grad, So I have a little common Sense. First stop all the FRAUD, Media care, Media, Cade, Welfare, Stock market, Banks, Insurance Comps, and all the FULLISH Spending that goes on in Washington and ALL the States. WE can lower our taxes down to 20%.
First of all Welfare should not come out of Social Security, (Lyndon Johnson,) Taxing Soc. Sec,( Bill Clinton,) Putting Illegals on Welfare,( Jimmy Carter).
In Education there is more Waste and our students are not getting the Education they should for the Money we spend.
If all the States Lottery's are going to Education how come the Federal Gov has to spend more. The other day I read where Virginia has put 88 BILLION DOLLARS to Education. REALLY, You can Educate the WORLD for that much money.

Riverdog, what are you doing right now? Elections are not that far away.

Sorry 'bout that Riverdog. :-D

The way I figure, you ought to go for it anyway. You can't do any worse than them and would probably do a damn sight better. Just remember to release the skeletons before they do and you'll be all right. :)

314159

PI! I love your name!

But seriously, some of the stuff being brought up by those speaking is ludicrous. In the business world we have work up a pro's and con's list so to speak before purchasing new equipment or adding a new hire. From the dems, all I hear is exaggerated Pros. From the republicans, I hear whatever they can throw out there to disagree.

If the GOP were smart, they'd have drafted a fully detailed & alternate bill that has research to back up the different benefits claimed and publish it. Let the American people demand it and sit back and reap the benefits. Someone put in a call to the GOP and see if they are interested in paying a Libertarian (me) to give this debate some brains! LOL

:)

Obama pointed out that the Republicans put new controls on medicare trying to cap costs in 1997. Why are they against more of the same? More of the same doesn't work, waste and fraud went up and more costs were shifted to non-medicare participants in health care.

Obamas summit-

Democrats read letters and think this is ideas.

Republicans read parts of the bill and Obama thinks they are campaigning-

WHAT A FRICKIN JOKE !!

"If the GOP were smart, they'd have drafted a fully detailed & alternate bill that has research to back up the different benefits claimed and publish it. Let the American people demand it and sit back and reap the benefits. Someone put in a call to the GOP and see if they are interested in paying a Libertarian (me) to give this debate some brains! LOL"

- The GOP did - it was called HR 3400. If you didn't hear about it, then you have discovered that the MSM and congress only want you to hear one side.

I heard it HR3400 and it's more BS and pony show. For Ins companies and would cut deficit much at all...so more gop BS

This HEALTHCARE DEABATE is all about the economy right???????

THEN HOW DO THE POLITICIANS EXPLAIN THIS -----------

The U. S. Geological Service issued a report in April ('08) that only scientists and oil men knew was coming, but man was it big. It was a revised report (hadn't been updated since '95) on how much oil was in this area of the western 2/3 of North Dakota ; western South Dakota ; and extreme eastern Montana

.... check THIS out:

The Bakken is the largest domestic oil discovery since Alaska 's Prudhoe Bay , and has the potential to eliminate all American dependence on foreign oil. The Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates it at 503 billion barrels. Even if just 10% of the oil is recoverable... at $107 a barrel, we're looking at a resource base worth more than $5.3 trillion.

'When I first briefed legislators on this, you could practically see their jaws hit the floor. They had no idea..' says Terry Johnson, the Montana Legislature's financial analyst.

'This sizable find is now the highest-producing onshore oil field found in the past 56 years' reports, The Pittsburgh Post Gazette. It's a formation known as the Williston Basin , but is more commonly referred to as the 'Bakken.' And it stretches from Northern Montana, through North Dakota and into Canada . For years, U. S. oil exploration has been considered a dead end. Even the 'Big Oil' companies gave up searching for major oil wells decades ago. However, a recent technological breakthrough has opened up the Bakken's massive reserves.... and we now have access of up to 500 billion barrels. And because this is light, sweet oil, those billions of barrels will cost Americans just $16 PER BARREL!

That's enough crude to fully fuel the American economy for 2041 years straight.

2. And if THAT didn't throw you on the floor, then this next one should - because it's from TWO YEARS AGO!

U. S. Oil Discovery- Largest Reserve in the World!

Stansberry Report Online - 4/20/2006

Hidden 1,000 feet beneath the surface of the Rocky Mountains lies the largest untapped oil reserve in the world. It is more than 2 TRILLION barrels. On August 8, 2005 President Bush mandated its extraction. In three and a half years of high oil prices none has been extracted. With this motherload of oil why are we still fighting over off-shore drilling?

They reported this stunning news: We have more oil inside our borders, than all the other proven reserves on earth. Here are the official estimates:

- 8-times as much oil as Saudi Arabia

- 18-times as much oil as Iraq

- 21-times as much oil as Kuwait

- 22-times as much oil as Iran

- 500-times as much oil as Yemen

- and it's all right here in the Western United States .

HOW can this BE? HOW can we NOT BE extracting this? Because the environmentalists and others have blocked all efforts to help America become independent of foreign oil! Again, we are letting a small group of people dictate our lives and our economy.....WHY?

James Bartis, lead researcher with the study says we've got more oil in this very compact area than the entire Middle East -more than 2 TRILLION barrels untapped. That's more than all the proven oil reserves of crude oil in the world today, reports The Denver Post.

If you are stupid enough to think 'OPEC' will drop its price - even with this find? Think again! It's all about how much oil os on the world market at any one time. Could OPEC be funding the environmentalists? Think again!!!

Got your attention/ire up yet? Hope so! Now, while you're thinking about it .... and hopefully P.O'd, do this:

3. Pass this along. Talk to your neighbors. Talk about it every where you go, meet people or gather at functions. If you don't take a little time to do this, then you should shut up the next time you start to complain about gas prices--- because by doing NOTHING, you've forfeited your right to gripe.

--------

By the way...this is all true. Check it out at the link below!!!

GOOGLE it or follow this link. It will blow your mind.

http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1911

SCREW the republicans

ram this through with single payer with 51 votes -- drive the health insurance greedy slugs out of business -- they have gouged people long enough -- there is not a single valid proposal from any Greed Over Patriotism slime ball to fix health care and the vast majority of tax payers are for health care reform and the majority support single payer system

If you think this matter is not important you are right you are not wualified to discuss it.

No can do riverdog. BO is still looking for that first feather to put up his dumbass. This is all this is about. If they shouve this down the taxpayers throat, come November it will be a Dummycratic bloodletting.

For small business expenses: if payroll is10", taxes are 2", rent, insurance and utilities are about another 2"; however, health care is a full 5". Health care costs have far more to do with jobs and busisness expansion than taxes. Of course, the law could encourage companies to not provide health care - we are then all on our own. Let hospital emergency rooms bear the costs.

As for oil in the US: shale oil has many issues and the continental US is not Saudi Arabia. Sen. Inhofe of Oklahoma refuses to allow a vote on the law-of-the-sea treaty. Either of 2 versions of the Arctic plan protects the US interests off the Alaska north coast. Here is where their may be large oil reserves (not ANWAR). Without legal protection, oil companies are reluctant to fully explore this area. Talk to Sen. Inhofe.

DB Akron

Obama pointed out that the Republicans put new controls on medicare trying to cap costs in 1997. Why are they against more of the same? More of the same doesn't work, waste and fraud went up and more costs were shifted to non-medicare participants in health care.

The reason they do not, is that the Administration is promising to Save $500 Billion from Medicare and then counting that savings as spending on this new program. You are not "saving" anything. You are essentially taking $500 billion from Medicare then re-injecting it back into an age expanded Medicare.

That is spending $1 twice.

I personally, would like to see this $500 billion dollar cut done immediately without any of the add-on baggage. Let us honestly see if we could save $50 billion on medicare over a year.

The Recovery Act of 2009 was too cost $787 billion. 2/3rds of it has not even been spent and its total cost is now $849 billion. That is with money still sitting in the bank.

Can anyone explain how 41 million additional people will be given healthcare and not increase the deficit?

The money has to come from somewhere. Tell us where?

Obama got that covered old fat guy..he will just blame it on Bush.

rbach:

Apparently you have never been ill or seen a doctor? You're talking from no knowledge of Medical Care or freedom of choices to be an advocate for your own health.

Well the 1-3 dollars wasted did not just happen, why was this problem not addressed before when the Bush clan was in office?, see that's the whole problem, that let's wait and see attitude, the Republicans talk the good talk but I don't see any action, just like here a lot of mouth no action, why were you all silent as Bush took the country over the cliff, and now you're all here crying like a bunch of little girls, the problem was created way before Obama got here and it was your party that created this mess .......And just sat back and did nothing .....

Arde, here's the link to the article that will answer your question. It's a pretty well-known study now, especially in light of the HC debate going on. Title: Health Insurance and Mortality in U.S. Adults

http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/2009_harvard_health_study.pdf

hawaii

apparently you have no clue about the actual health care system and you choose to continue with no facts at all

NEWSFLASH

Medicare is working well -- my mother had this coverage and chose her doctors and providers and was very happy and healthy with it

So while you and those of your ilk choose to just blather talking points rather than do any fact finding -- I have done much research on health care, I have several close friends in the health care field from doctors, nurses and clinical -- seems the only ones against health care reform are the health care insurance companies, the republicans and the mindless minions who have no knowledge of the subject and simply blather the bull@!$%# from their talking heads

Medicare and Medicaid are GOING BANKRUPT! Medicare will be out of money in 2017!

You want to talk quality? "The rate of complete, accurate information provided by Medicare customer service representatives was 15%." But hey, so what if 85% of your information is inaccurate.

These are the people the rbach wants to run our health care system. What a joke!

reseachplz - "I heard it HR3400 and it's more BS and pony show. For Ins companies and would cut deficit much at all...so more gop BS"

This calls for the famous quote from Billy Madison:

"What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

RV

the joke is folks like you who are so partisan you do not see any good if the other side comes up with it

You blather the usual fact less points of the right

Where is any proof of your wild right wing claims?

It is people like RV who want to keep shoveling money to the insurance companies while your coverage drops to nothing -- so all the CEO get paid 57,000.00 per hour --yup it sure sounds like you have a better idea -- just like the Greed Over Patriotism folks all blather and no helpful ideas so just have to trash all over the plan with lies and totally made up crap

rbach, just let me know WHAT I SAID on this thread that was not true?

RV

you asked for what you wrote that was not true or backed by any facts

here you go -- just for starters

1 - Medicare and Medicaid are GOING BANKRUPT! Medicare will be out of money in 2017!

2 - The rate of complete, accurate information provided by Medicare customer service representatives was 15%

3 - The GOP did - it was called HR 3400. If you didn't hear about it, then you have discovered that the MSM and congress only want you to hear one side.

rbach, just let me know WHAT I SAID on this thread that was not true?

where did you get this - or backed by any facts - part?

just asking :o)~

whoosie

if there is no facts to back up a statement then the statement cannot be proved as anything other than opinion

most folks on the right do not seem to understand that -- they buy everything their talking heads blather as truth when 99.999% of it is nothing but bull@!$%#

I know what you were looking for, that's not the point.

you intentionally misquoted to benefit yourself.................and that's not nice

really whoosie

and exactly where did I mis quote?

The mis quoting and picking and choosing bits of facts to benefit their cause is a trick the right wing does all the time and I am pointing that out -- the only mis quoting here is not from me

accusing some one of something they did not do -- well that is not nice

rbach, Notice the little underline on the year 2017. That is called a LINK. You see, you can click on that link and it will provide you with a SOURCE. If you are calling into question my source, then go ahead, call it into question - back it up with sources of your own (not that you would ever do some research.)

Since you seem to refuse to check on the link, I will SPOON FEED IT TO YOU:

"In its 2008 annual report to Congress, the Medicare Board of Trustees reported that the program's hospital insurance trust fund could run out of money by 2017."

Under the quality of Beneficiary Services Section of the same link - "The rate of complete, accurate information provided by Medicare customer service representatives was 15%." - Source: ^ "Denial of the TÜV Healthcare Specialists Request for Deeming Authority for Hospitals (CMS–2228–FN)". Federal Register 71 (121): 36100–36101. 23 June 2006. http://www.cms.hhs.gov/quarterlyproviderupdates/downloads/cms2228fn.pdf.

The GOP did, IN FACT, write HR 3400 (written by Tom Price - http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3400/show.) The MSM did NOT, in FACT, cover HR 3400 (especially when compared to the bribe laden bill that we have now.) This isn't a lie. How you come to terms with that is up to you.

really RV

you take a report from 2008 that says medicare could run out of money in 2017 and twist that and stretch that to somehow make people believe your lie of "Medicare and Medicaid are GOING BANKRUPT! Medicare will be out of money in 2017!" nope that is not being truthful and is in fact a lie the very same for your twist on customer service crap -- let's talk to people on medicare and ask them how's that rather than you going off to try and twist other crap to make your views come true let's stick with real pertinent facts

really RV open congress come on a right wing hack site to be source of anything factual -- either you know the site is bull@!$%# or you are truly ill informed as to where actual facts can be found yes a real bill was submitted in July of 2009 only after the republicans refused to participate and decided they should have some cover -- yup indeed did you bother to read the bill -- not anything close to health care reform unless you love health care insurance companies -- so on this I will give you as not a lie but a poor, no very poor example of governance by the republicans

rbach - It is like talking to a brick wall. This is my last post on this matter - so don't waste your time responding. You are wrong, I am right - how you own that is your problem.

1. THE FINANCIAL REPORT WAS FROM THE MEDICARE BOARD OF TRUSTEES! Again you provide no substantiated information to the contrary to back up anything you say.

2. The customer service report was taken from Health and Human Services, and again, you have no backup information for your argument to the contrary.

3. Opencongress.org is NON-PARTISAN! They list all bills - LITERALLY! "OpenCongress is a free, open-source, non-profit, and non-partisan web resource with a mission to help make Congress more transparent and to encourage civic engagement. OpenCongress is a joint project of the Sunlight Foundation and the Participatory Politics Foundation."

So, AGAIN, you have nothing for me. No sources, no info, nothing to back up what you say. Zip. I will ignore future posts from you on this topic because you proved to me that you were not willing to even make the extra effort to come up with ONE source to back up your argument.

RV

how typical of the right wing folks -- you are wrong and I am right because I refuse to look at your facts --- like dealing with little kids the lot of you

1 your bull@!$%# report was from 2008 -- the word was "could" you changed it to will -- get a dictionary and look up the words -- that is nothing but you lying

2 again you grab a tiny piece of fact and twist it into something to try and prove your view -- give beck a call he is a master at that -- just more bull@!$%#

3 yup I gave you credit for that even though your source was highly suspect and right winger approved

The only reason you can claim I have nothing for you -- plain simply you are too far to the right to have the ability to know what real pertinent facts are

You must be high on the right wing nutter koolaid since you claim I have no sources and I used the very same sources you did -- just I did not try to spin the facts into more than they were

Nice right winger you are-- lock step right over the cliff

That's even questionable!

Can you imagine him getting liquored up, stumbling over and turning off the teleprompter, then letting fly with what he really thinks about this country? LOL

Watched that creep Mitch McConnell banging his shoe on the table while repeatedly yelling No, just like that Russian did it at the UN so long ago.

The beer summit was pathetic. I see them at bars all the time. If there aren't kegs and coolers full of beer, you won't hear what people really think by the end of the night.

dumpster - nice simile. What point were you trying to make? If anything Obammy and his comrades are closer to Kruschev than McConnell and the Repubs.

Right. Because Obama's a communist.

Right.

Don't you wonder why Progressives are pissed off at Obama?

It's because he's too moderate!

But in relation to the evangelical reactionaries that have co-opted the GOP, any moderate seems liberal.

Reading comprehension isn't one of your strengths, is it Ben??

Are the Lib/progs not ideologically closer to commies than the repubs??

All we have in here is the right wing trolls and the healthcare trolls.

Personal attacks get us nowhere.

What you're saying is similar to the fact that we share 98% of our genome with chimps. Does that make you a monkey, Porkbevr?

"Close" works in horseshoes and hand grenades.

The current crop of GOP conservatives are closer to fascists.

We share 98% of our genome with every little object on the earth,

it doesn't make me a corn stalk either,

the current crop of democrat progressives are far more closer to communism...

Wow. Well, if you want to play that game, I'd rather be a communist than a fascist.

At least the original theories of communism strove to achieve a utopia. On paper.

Fascism requires war. Never a utopia there.

How about you, arde? Are you a Commie or a "National Socialist"?

Maybe most of you were just watching and not actually listening, did you all mis the part about health care cost has just gone up in a lot of states, Yep, but you all rather just sit there and say well my party says everything is fine, well just this 14 month delay will cost most Americans money that they don't have to keep their health care, and guess what come election day they will remember why they have less food on the table, so keep up the good work you all are insuring a democrat win come November......

Ya know what, it is so very sad that so many democrats are up for communism. Saw a poll recently, don't remember where but something like 35% dems consider communism a viable way of life. If your selective for communism can you name one place it has worked? Where is the wealth shared equally? Where all the peoples medical, food, and living quarters is taken care of?

As you say, "on paper", it has never worked in reality anywhere with success. I'll take capitalism any day of the week. I like getting compensated for my efforts. The flaw in communism is when all things are equal the people putting into the system don't feel like giving their best because they don't get any return, and the ones that do put in a good effort look at ones that don't work but get the same benefits and feel disheartened.

Either you've learned your belief from some college professor or you not a US citizen, and no it isn't fair, life isn't fair, some utopia thought up in someones mind has never worked. Marx wasn't raised or lived a life of communism, it only existed in his mind. Its typical of such people, they're kept people and think they know whats good for the masses but have never lived the life they think is so good...

Those bent on being communist should move and experience communism firsthand. Then they might think twice about continuing to change America for the worse. Life isn't and never will be fair, but stripping our freedom does nothing but force us into a lesser existence. I will say that capitalism is what made us great and that turned to greed is crushing us. As I recall, Obama stated that some businesses were to big to fail. The reality is, many are to big to allow to go on. Government has very little power if the people actually act. If a majority of people pulled there money from any of the major banks, they would fail. It's the same principal for any manufacturer or retail store. Just stop using the store or buying the merchandise in a joint effort. Liberals thrive in newspapers and regular media, but flounder in talk radio. The reason - They can't support their views when confronted with opposition. That said, there are a few liberal views that I support.

Government has very little power if the people actually act

I love that line, may I use it at some point?

I agree with your post although, Massachusetts (Brown) may be changing their tune.

So, you want the government to take its hands off of your Medicare? (yes, people have said that)

And shut down that offensive Post Office while you're at it.

Wait a minute....

No government and small government are two different things. Most "small government" advocates believe that states should have the bulk of the power and the federal government should have very limited power.

I think it's a poor argument to say that people who advocate small government are all of a sudden assumed to be "no government" advocates.

Libertarians are notoriously "small government" advocates.

I have no idea what republicans are these days... In a bad way.

Democrats would have your potty breaks regulated and taxed if they could, apparently.

LOL @ Clotho and Rorschach. Do you guys ever even read the replies you guys get every time you say those things? It's getting to be humorous the way you still throw around that crap.

Get familiar with the constitution and the responsibility of state vs federal. I won't elaborate again though, it's a waste of me googling for the links over and over if you aren't going to read it. The Nebraska Compromise alone is enough to get this overturned in the other 49 states even if it does pass. You can thank a Democrat for that one.

But they have a point, Allen. Any if the way the GOP diehards too stimulus money in the end, then everyone's going to be on board with health care reform, regardless of its guise.

You think your average right-wing congressman up for reelection wants to be the guy to shoot down health care reform in his district? Political suicide.

Hampster:

The Russian who banged his shoe on the table, was First Secretary of the Communist Party Nikita Kruschev.

His famous quote, was "They promise to build bridges even when there are no rivers." (Health Care?)

Another one: "If you live among the wolves, you have to act like a wolf.

"Believe it or not, History is on our side, "We will Bury You"!

This Communist was scary. Kennedy Era.

NYET!

I am glad Obama realizes that "in November we will find out who is right." IF he wants to know who to blame for that, all he has to do is look in the mirror. He was NOT looking for "compromise" with Republicans, unless his idea of compromise is the Republicans agreeing to go along with the plan in exchange for, what exactly??? No, clearly this entire show was engineered by Obama and Reid to attempt to coerce and strong-arm Cantor, McCain & all other Republicans into going along with them, and PRETENDING that is compromise. You can't say "give us your input," and then turn around and say, "Look, we're going to do this with or without you" and expect good results. Clearly Obama & the Dems don't want good results, THEY just want to pass a bill. They DON'T CARE if it's a good bill or a horrible bill, they just want to be able to say "see, we passed it!" I am proud of the Republicans for sticking to their guns and not being pushed around by Obama and Reid. And the good news for them is, the Dems completely OWN this healthcare bill they are determined to pass no matter what, and we'll all know who to blame for this in November.

Only 500 million in waste? I would think it's much much higher.

Isn't 500 million what PBO said? I know he said that is how a large part of of his idea's were going to be paid for.

Wonder how much of that money Obama has recovered. I know he is a busy guy...probably working on doubling our exports as we speak.

It's the CBO and it is 500 Billion in cuts to Medicare

There are proposed cuts to Medicare but wasn't a bunch of money supposed to come from reducing fraud and waste?

It's actually $500 Billion in Medicare fraud and waste that was claimed would be saved but I supposed that's contingent upon this POS legislation passing, or it's imaginary like the "saved" jobs by the stimulus bill.

And yet, the provisions that are designed to eliminate fraud and waste are falsely decried as death panels or government intrusion between you and your doctor. You claim to not want government involved, but how else do you combat waste and fraud but with regulation and enforcement that applies uniform empiracally based standards for determining what medical care is "wasteful and fraudulent". If medical science has determined that a particular procedure or treatment is not effective, then, regardless of what some quack doctor claims, that procedure should not be paid for. You can get it, you just have to pay for it. Right now there are quacks offering Chelation therapy for any number of illnesses. Most insurers will not pay. That has not stopped millions from paying for this care themselves. But requiring health insurers, private and public, to pay for everything by not having scientific panels evaluate the effectiveness and validity of the care proposed is a sure path to more wastefulness and fraud.

Don't we already have laws that cover Fraud? Enforce the law NOW!!!

Paddymurphy, you're connecting things that have no connection what-so-ever. Fraud is Medicare paying illegitimate claims and not doing adequate research into who they're paying or for what. There was a 60-Minutes special on the topic when a "pharmacy" was bringing in over $100,000/month through Medicare claims and it was an abandoned store front. Those are the types of things that fall under waste and fraud. No beaurocrat is qualified to determine which medical tests and procedures are necessary and which are not, that's what doctors are for and why doctors go to school for decades. That being said, Medicare needs to do a better job of outlining what they'll cover and that payments they are making are for legitimate reasons but that doesn't require any legislation, it only requires people actually doing their jobs!

diamond - The funny thing about this - the same beaurocrats who run Medicare will be running this new "healthcare" system (namely our government.

I want healthcare reform, but THIS BILL needs to go away and congress needs to START OVER!

How do we let these people do this with our hard earned money? 100 grand a month, that is probably about what all the people on the board combined pay in, just pissed away, doesn't that make anybody else sick to their stomach, makes me want to vomit.

Nowhere in any plan is it proposed that "bureaucrat" will determine what procedures are medically necesarry. You do not understand what I wrote. There is a huge difference between a determination whether an appropriate medical procedure is necessary and whether a proposed procedureis appropriate at all. The health care reform plan does nothing more than include the the same type of fraud and waste controls that all health care plans, public and private, include. These plans, and the reform plan, do nothing more than require empiric evidence that a new procedure will do what it claims it will do. This determination will not be made by Government bureaucrats but by the best medical experts in the country, the ones who have developed the leading technologies that do make our system the most innovative. If you really believe that non-medical government appointee will make individual decisions about health care, you are either incrediby misinformed or simply desirous of spreading the same mis-truths about what is proposed. You do understand that under the proposed reform, health care will continue to be provided through private insurers, medicare and medicaid? The entities already have procedures that make sure that the care being provided is proven to be safe and effective. Finally, the vast majority of the waste in the provision of health care is not the result of the type of criminal conduct you describe, it is the result of the payment for care that is either not medicall appropriate at all or not medicall appropriate for the particular patient. If you had even the faintest understanding of the curent system of payment for medical care, you would understand this.

I'm thinking you're actually a doctor who actually has some of his own skin in this game - am I right?

You want to believe that the govt will let doctors continue to make these determinations without bureaucratic interference? It's a nice dream but that will never happen. EVERYTHING the government gets it's hands on, ends up costing 4 times as much and never completely fixes the proginal problem. is this what you want with your medical coverage?

Take a look at the states that implemented this type of health care "reform" years ago and see what it did to their budgets. And you want this on a national scale?

All I know is this: currently the government runs Medicare and Medicaid. Both systems are in such financial trouble that they are almost completely economically UNVIABLE. Trusting the government with healthcare is like giving a complete stranger your credit card. Allow insurance companies to compete across state lines, and force them to abide by the same regulations.

START OVER. This bill is garbage. We do not need to have a bill filled with bribe money, waste, and forcefull language.

Paddy,

Nevermind answering the previous question. Your eyes are brown.

The health care reform plan does nothing more than include the same type of fraud and waste controls that all health care plans, public and private, include.

Oh so like Medicare which is working so amazingly well, only this will be 5 times worse? Everything in Washington is run by bearcats and to think otherwise is naive at best if not ignorant. "(T)he best medical experts in the country" who if paid off by government officials will be more than happy to deem expensive procedures "inappropriate". You are so clueless it's not even funny. You disillusionment over health care is on par with that of Nancy Pelosi and Keith Olbermann, then again I guess that should be no surprise. You are correct, partly, about one thing, controls over unnecessary medical spending are present but only in the private sector, unless this legislation passes and insurance companies are no longer allowed to deny frivolous claims.

And the health reform proposal will address these problems. What is garbage is what spews from the mouths of those who oppose this reform based on what it is not. it is not government run healthcare, health care will continue to be run by the doctors and hospitals; it will not be government health insurance, health insurance will be provided by the same entities who provide it today, health insurance companies and the government programs that already cover about 50% of the populace. What is remarkably funny is your comment " Allow insurance companies to compete across state lines and force them to abide by the same regulations" is precisely what is at the heart of this bill. The republicans want competition acrosss state lines, but do not want the uniform regulation that is necesarry to make sure that that reins in the cost and insures as many as possible. The republicans want health insurance companies to be able to find the state with the laws most favorable to them and most harmful to patients and to incorporate there and then sell their plans around the country without having to follow the state laws where the patient is located. That is what they mean by selling insurance across state lines. So much of the waste in health care is because providers have to bill insurers in so many different ways. Each insurer has their own rules as to what is covered and how the claims are to be submitted and processed. There is also a ton of money spent by insurers trying to find ways to deny claims and by hospitals jumping through the hoops to try to get paid. Take pre-exising conditions. Everyone is in favor of banning denials for PE conditions but most are against mandatory insurance but these two provisions are dependant on one another. Only by increasing the poplutation that is insured, which will force healthy young people into the pool of insured, can an insurer afford to not consider a PE condition when determining what premium they can charge and make a profit. The large increases in premiums in California are because people who are young and healthy are dropping insurance because of the cost while those who use the services are staying in. The result in that there are less people paying in but the care being provided remains at the same level. It is fundamental that the large the pool of people insured, the less expensive it is per person.

I am giving up arguing with you people. Your paranoia is clinical. You are the descendants of the Black Helicopter Crowd. Tighten your tin foil hats and I will go try to find some occupants of this planet to talk to.

Rhorshach: Not a doctor. I try to get hospitals paid for the care they provide. I am intimately familiar with the system through which medical care is paid by insurers and government programs. Frankly, I benefit from the inefficient way that health care is delivered in this Country.

Paddymurphy, again, you're merely spewing the same incorrect crap being spouted by Democrats and the liberal media. Insurance would not be necessary if medical care were truly affordable, notice I said medical care, not health insurance. It's not the insurer's job to pay your medical bills while collecting less in premiums than the policy holder consumes.

http://biz.yahoo.com/p/sum_qpmd.html

Check the reference. Health plans have a 3.4% net profit margin compared to 29% for Healthcare Facilities and 18.3% for major drug manufacturer! If medical care were cost effective, which it certainly isn't, health insurance would in turn be more affordable. The "reform" you're so in favor of does nothing to improve the overall situation. In fact, of the 10% of the country without insurance, at least 1/4 of those choose not to have it and the remainder are either illegal or qualify for Medicaid so what's the $1 trillion for? Not only that but we're going to have 10 years of revenue for 5 years of coverage. What's going to happen next decade? Don't give me any BS about imaginary decreases in health care expenditures through improved health either because no one changes their lifestyle merely by acquiring health insurance, in fact it would be more logical to argue health care expenditures would increase due to a new sense of security provided by having health insurance. Please put the Kool Aid down and open you eyes. You and people like you don't even know the full ramifications of what you're supporting, you only look at what you're told through the liberal media and the half truths of Congress and the President.

Goodbye Paddy,

Don't let the door strike you in the posterior when you leave.

Next time, please come back with facts not spin, logic not hopes, and learn to cut down on the massive volume of your words.

Speaking of wordiness, are you one of the authors of this horrible 2000++ pages of legislation ??

TOm , In New York alone you have 2.5 BILLION in media care and Media Cade Fraud alone, Calf, the same way. Today they said there was 250 BILLION DOLLARS in FRAUD In MEDIA Care & Cade.
How about all the other things LIKE MURTHAs AIRPORT??? And the BRIDGE TO NO WHERE,How about the People on WELFARE selling their Stamps for money so they can but DRUGS.

Paddy - Didn't PBO come out and say lots of people wouldn't be able to keep the doctors that have now. If this is true that is the Governement deceding, so you are wrong.

Paddy, this was an agument? It looked like you were just pontificating and getting mad that we all don't agree with you.

What is remarkably funny is your comment " Allow insurance companies to compete across state lines and force them to abide by the same regulations" is precisely what is at the heart of this bill.

If your'e going to make claims like that, at least provide proof or links to something proving it. Obama even disagrees with you on this one. That's one of the "ideas" the republicans never had according to liberal media.

If it's true, it's the closest thing to a legitimate talking point you've had so far that could actually sway some people on the fence.

Not mad. Frustrated. The stupidity and dishonesty of those who oppose this is frustrating. I state facts concerning poll numbers and how health insurance works, and I get back talking points from Fox News. I do not care if you agree with me, I just want intelligent responses based on facts. I get these when I debate these issues with conservative friends. I guess I expect too much from those posting here today who cannot look past their hatred of this President.

Allen: Try here http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/02/five_compronises_in_health_car.html and here http://articles.latimes.com/2009/nov/16/business/fi-mandates16 and here http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2009/November/06/health-insurance-across-state-lines.aspx

Paddymurphy,

Heres a fact for you. I will keep it real simple. I don't want the government taking care of me. I do not want mandatory health insurance. I don't want to pay for illegals, welfare bums that are able to work, Lazy people. I am sick of the liberal mentality of taking working folks money and giving it to the government to squaunder as they please. Is this simple enough for a liberal to understand? Probably not.

Pre-existing conditions defined.

Someone that decided not to buy health insurance when they were well and now that they're sick they want health insurance.

How about car insurance. I got into an accident two days ago and I want to buy car insurance today so my accident is covered.

My Doctor just told me I have a terminal brain tumor, now I want to buy $500,000 life insurance policy and the damn greedy insurance companies turn me down.

Tax credits to help people buy health insurance. 65% of the working men and women in the US do not pay any, ANY, Federal taxes. So how do you give them tax credits, money, to pay for health insurance. You can't.... unless you give them back their Social Security and Medicare taxes, which will cause Social Security and Medicare to BK even sooner. That's really smart maybe the Country won't implode until I am out of office. Thank you Mr F'in President you're dreamy.

This thing will cost close to 4 trillion over ten years for ten years of coverage. The real shame is we will loose 6 to 7 million more jobs because of it, adding to our problems. It will cost $2,000 per year for every working person. It will cost $13,500. per year per uninsured person.

Jobless claims are on the rise again. This year we will have 300% more homes get foreclosed on, over last year. Yes 300% more foreclosures.

Thank you Mr "crackhead" President. Gub'mint CheeZe for all. I want Obama to be my mommy so he can breast feed me. I brought the lotion do you think he'll shave my back.

Somebody jerk John McCain out of the healthcrap conference Jesus Christ he's a commi mole "Manchurian candidate" da da da da da.

Then leave. You do not belong here. We long ago decided that we are the type of society that will provide for the basic needs of those in our society who are not able to provide for themselves. Nothing that is proposed will provide health insurance coverage to Illegals. That is a lie. Requiring that everyone have health insurance coverage will go a long way to make sure that your are not paying for health insurance for those who can pay for themselves. Right now, hundreds of millions of dollars are spent on health care provided to people who could pay for health insurance or who could be covered by medicaid or medicare. The system you say you do not want is closer to what we have now than to what is proposed. Who do you think pays for the hospital care for the young person who chooses to not pay for health insurance but then gets cancer or suffers injury? You do. Do you have a problem with making them take responsibility for themselves by buying insurance? Do not say that if they choose not to have health insurance, they should pay for the care because that does not happen. Perhaps you would prefer that we simply let those who are "too lazy" or are "welfare bums" die if they get injured or have health problems?

Actually, Paddy, it is you who should leave. Countries already exist with systems similar to what you are looking for (Canada, England, and France for example.) The U.S. is DIFFERENT, and for many, BETTER than the alternative. Once the U.S. changes and becomes like the rest of the world, it will be too late. There will not be another country like it.

"Nothing that is proposed will provide health insurance coverage to Illegals." - of course not. They would have to be complete morons to come out and say "we will cover illegal immigrants." However, once the bill is in place, ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS WHO HAVE MANAGED TO OBTAIN DOCUMENTS THAT MAKE THEM APPEAR TO BE LEGAL, CAN HAVE ACCESS TO THE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE - JUST AS THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO RECEIVE OTHER ENTITLEMENTS. I put it in caps so that you can read it easily. You cannot say with a straight face that this program will NEVER be abused. If you do, you are a liar and all of your credibility is GONE. Abuse is NOT accounted for in President Obama's $950 Billion estimate, is it?

"Who do you think pays for the hospital care for the young person who chooses to not pay for health insurance but then gets cancer or suffers injury? You do." - How will this change with the new legislation? We will fine this young person who doesn't have the money to pay the fine, this person will be jailed and we will pay to house this person AND pay for his/her bill. Poor argument.

"Perhaps you would prefer that we simply let those who are "too lazy" or are "welfare bums" die if they get injured or have health problems?" - Nobody wants people to die. If the president focused as much on jobs as he has on this bribe laden health care bill, maybe there would be less "welfare bums" (your words, NOT mine) without money or INSURANCE!

This bill is STILL terrible, START OVER - after the economy is repaired!

So, Dave...

Then how do you stand on the judicial activism that just sold out our electoral process to foreign corporations?

Ben, how did they sell out to foreign corporations?

Yea, right on Ben-478550 like when we gave Chrysler to Fiat and 40% of tarp went to foreign corporations, oh wait that was Obammy. Doh..... Obammy refused to sell Saturn to Pensky Automotive an American Automotive Company and let Saturn just die. Why would Obammy do that because the union workers for Saturn worked out a deal to save Saturn without Obammy's help. Not only that but Saturn has the most fuel efficient fleet of all American car manufactures and you would not want to promote green companies

Thank you Mr. Crackhead President

The U.S. is DIFFERENT, and for many, BETTER than the alternative

US Healthcare is ranked #37. Stop the lies.

We have a terrible health care system than most countries. Repubs need to stop the lies like the death panels and start trying to figure out a solution, or get out of the Dems way.

Tom: there is no longer a cap on corporate campaign spending, so any corporation anywhere in the world has the capacity to greatly influence our national politics.

Mark: unrelated. I'm talking about how our elections now may as well be internationally traded commodities, thanks to the conservatives on the Supreme Court.

Mark:

What's with the "crackhead" quips?

Are you threatened by a black President?

"US Healthcare is ranked #37. Stop the lies." - According to the WHO. What makes up this ranking?

1. Health Level: 25 percent

2. Health Distribution: 25 percent

3. Responsiveness: 12.5 percent

4. Responsiveness Distribution: 12.5 percent

5. Financial Fairness: 25 percent

“Health level” is a measure of a countries “disability adjusted life expectancy”. This factor makes sense, since it is a direct measure of the health of a country’s residents. However, even “life expectancy” can be affected by many factors not related to health care per se, such as poverty, homicide rate, dietary habits, accident rate, tobacco use, etc. In fact, if you remove the homicide rate and accidental death rate from MVA’s from this statistic, citizens of the US have a longer life expectancy than any other country on earth. - Source: Sally C. Pipes, “The Top Ten Myths of American Health Care”. Pacific Research Institute, pp 132-133, 2008.

"Let’s be perfectly clear about this, the United States Health Care is second to none! Ask the tens of thousands of patients who travel internationally to the US every year for their health care."

If you do more research, you will find out more regarding the other factors used in the WHO's study.

You will find that in responsiveness, the U.S. ranks #1.

The per capita costs are more in the U.S. because we have more testing available - CT scans, Mammograms, MRI's, X-Rays, and other testing is MUCH more readily available than it is in other countries.

Do some research before you spout meaningless numbers.

Ben 5.33,

You conveniently failed to mention the UNIONS who were also covered by this ruling. Of course, we know you don't want to mention that OR B.O.'s plan to tax Cadillac health plans for everyone EXCEPT unions and government workers.

Could that be because unions and government employees vote HEAVILY DEMOCRATIC ? Yep, Barry doesn't want to piss off HIS voting base.

Ben,

At 5.39 YOU have equated another quip about crackheads with our "black" president ? Nobody else mentioned race Ben. ARE YOU A RACIST, BEN ??? It sure sounds that way.

That is true. Ranked one of the lowest. Countries with the government healthcare(Europe)live longer lives. They outrank the USA in all catagories of healthcare except for top treatment and preventive health problems. We do need a reform,but not a government takeover. Which is being suggested. I do believe we need to work together on this with both parties and start over. Sure it will cost a little over a trillion(100 billion a year). But i rather spend $100 billion a year on america than 100 billion on a war in iraq which was a lie. I don't believe in taking out 500 billion in Medicare which will be a scorn for the senior citizens. But like it is stated, if you like your insurance than one can keep it. More people are losing insurance everyday due to the increase of premiums(Blue Cross just raised its premium in California to 39%). If this was a Socialized country, we would all be under socialized medicine. So i think we need to start over, but with both sides of the table(Bipartisin). Trying to use RECONCILIATION and trying to push it through would be bad. I heard a comment on here where Reagan was a True Conservative, LOLZ. (1)Close to tripling the deficit when he left office(700 million to 2 trillion). (2)The Amnesty Act in 1986. (3)245 marines were killed in Beruit(Beruit Bombing) and he withdrew troops within 4 months. Imagine if Obama did it, he would get hammered by the GOP. (4) Reagan backed both Iraq and Iran(but at separate times) during their conflict.(5)The Iran-Contra affair where arms were sold to Iran(via isrial) to fund the war in Nicaugara. Sorry i got sidetracked. Not taking Obamas side as i have conflict with some of his policies. I don't like REID, as he might be trying to use Reconciliation with DODD as both of them know they wont get re-elected due to their polling. As they are trying to go down in flames. But the GOP are backed by corporates and the insurance companies and i can give a hoot about McConnell and McCain. WE do need reform for affordable insurance with not being rejected with Pre-existing problems.

JIM,

Unions: a concession, and a weak one at that, considering how little influence they have in comparison to many multi-billion dollar international operations.

Race: you don't have to be a genius to read the subtext of many of the personal attacks the armchair conservatives on these forums level at our President... regardless, here's another one of Mark's gems...

"Gibbs forgot to tell Obammy. Thank Mr. "Crackhead" President it's the white devil GD america GD america."

...

If I were you, I'd focus on contacting my state Senator and making sure he knows I want the same health care plan that he has.

An industry which is based on determining the lives and health of people should NEVER be "for profit". There in is where the major problem lies. Take away insurance and pharmaceutical industry profits and standardize costs/fees and then healthcare will work the way it should.

paddymurphy, I "get" you. It can be frustrating on these forums when you're trying to give facts and people just won't listen. Have faith, though, that some of us understand what you're talking about. I don't agree with everything you're saying, although, most of it. And I don't mind reading your longer-than-usual posts because they are on the mark and give useful information. Can't blame you if you leave, though.

Smc31569 - what is profit in your mind? Doesn't evern product we use in live determine the lives and health of people?

How about Cars, looking at the last week with Toyota they effect peoples lives and health, IE cars shouldn't be for profit.

How about Food, its the same, IE they shouldn't be for profit.

Technology is the same, if my IPOD or Cell phone might cause cancer having it jammed in my ear all day, that can't be for profit.

Doesn't leave much of anything for profit, so we is going to invent new things that make our lives better if there is no profit in it? The Government?

It is real easy to say that Health insurance shouldn't be for profit, but who is going to put there own necks on the line if there is no reward or the possibly of loss?

I am not going to loan you money if my only choice is breaking even or you not paying me back, in some people's mind the government could loan the money, but the government doesn't have money with out workers or business's paying.

It's the classic example of the end justifying the means.
You want something-even something that everyone agrees is a good thing too desperately.
So you start eliminating obstacles to your sucess. And then in order to keep going, you've
got to harden yourself to doing more and more things that are at odds with your core beliefs
of what is right and wrong. Make it so that your goal is so important, you have to lie or betray for it.

Gibbs is so full of himself as well! What is it with Obama, Dodd and these people? They make no sense. How can they stand there and say the things they say?

Tune into CNN - Obama is unbelievably arrogant as usual. The Democrats as usual are NOT LISTENING. This stuttering fool of a president is actually painful to listen to. All he talks about are his same old arguments that we have heard a hundred times before. When he hears something he doesn't like, he interrupts, pushes it for a later discussion, or passes the conversation to a Democrat. What a circus!

So far the Democrats have had the floor almost twice as much as the Republicans. What a joke!

domsmom, They say the things they say because they think we are DUMB and don't understand. Don't forget the are ALL COLLEGE GRADS. No COMMON SENSE.

Gibbs forgot to tell Obammy. Thank Mr. "Crackhead" President it's the white devil GD america GD america.

Gibbs forgot to tell Obammy. Thank Mr. "Crackhead" President

You are a Racist pig., Mark. Shame! You cant compete with intelligence so you go with juvenile distractions like this. Time to take off the pointy white hat and the 3-letter monogram now. Or are there cross burnings in your backward community tonite?

What we have here is the result of letting Lawyers run the country. These people refer to themselves as leaders, and simply choose to forget that they are more importantly representatives of the people.

What a charade the whole this was. Obama made himself look what he is not informed at all. He is nothing without his teleprompter. He is a loser and he needs to be removed from office. If this crap is so damn good then tell me why they won't be sharing in the same healthcare. they know full well it's like @!$%# on a shingle and we all are bird crap in their minds and that is what we should have is simply said forced upon @!$%#. They all should rot in hell.

I would rather have a lawyer than a Hollywood actor(Reagan) run this country. I compare Carl Rove and Perino to Gibbs, USELESS people who love the photo-op.

Sigh..Were is my Space Karate Monkey when I need him. We need a replacement President. Blah Blah Blah

Dems Suck blah blah blah

Repubs suck blah blah blah

We are going broke blah blah blah

I rather have Reagan than than a lawyer. He had the best cabinet in the Whitehouse over the past 30+ years bar none. All administrations make mistakes. When Ronnie spoke America felt proud and honored. This Moonbat we have now has no clue how horrible he maks the county look to not only AMERICANS but the rest of the world.

They campaign on the pretense of "helping" Americans. But they are only interested in helping themselves. Why don't some Americans recognize this yet??!!

But Dodd is one of the folks getting out of the way.

I saw a national columnist last night on the news, discussing his surrort for current reform plans on the table. Although he conceded that the majority of Americans are not in favor of current plans "once they see" what they will be getting they'll be glad that the current plans had passed.

Isn't it something like 4 to 5 years from not that the major portions of the plan start kicking in ??? So this columnist, who should know better, believes that people won't mind waiting 4 or 5 years to see the major changes take place to ease their worried minds ???

Dodd is saying that the Democrats have the vast majority in the Hous and Senate, plus the White House, as elected by the American people. Majority rules.

Watch John Boehner on the House floor in 2005. He goes on and on about how the majority should rule, and filibusters are un-American, etc. How short people's memories are...

Anyway, good to see the Democrats finally showing some backbone.

Thinker-543390

But Dodd is one of the folks getting out of the way.

True, but not until he inflicts severe and long-lasting damage upon this country by way of this bloated legislation.

But Clotho - that majority has to face the voters in 8 months. They faced stiffer opposition than the republicans in the town halls.

thinker ,Don't bet on it.

Clotho

Dodd is saying that the Democrats have the vast majority in the Hous and Senate, plus the White House, as elected by the American people. Majority rules.

For too long the left has catered to and forced the will of the minority of Americans on the majority. Majority rules is what you're going to see in the next 2 elections.

80% believe in God? Let's ban all kinds of things related to religion to keep that other 20% happy. 20% are failing in schools? Let's raise the bar so they can get under and make the meaning of an education worth less for the top graduates. 15% want free insurance? Let's get the other 85% to pay for it. 1% are too rich? Let's send jobs overseas to spread the wealth.

Republicans have their issues too, but at least you can see they're doing something about it with Tea Party movements or letting their votes count in the last presidential election to get the point across. All I'm seeing on newsvine from the left is defending this proposterous behavior of Democrats.

The republicans did use it to pass the tax breaks for the wealthy.

You teabaggers live in your own reality don't you?

Despite their howls against Obama, Republicans employed the same procedure to pass major Bush agenda items.

– The 2001 Bush Tax Cuts [HR 1836, 3/26/01]
– The 2003 Bush Tax Cuts [HR 2, 3/23/03]
– Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005 [HR 4297, 5/11/06]
– The Deficit Reduction Act of 2005 [H. Con Res. 95, 12/21/05]

The Bush tax cuts provided cuts for all who paid taxes. In fact, those who paid very little in taxes were cut to the point that they got back every dime (and more, if you count EIC) that they paid in.

James - "The republicans did use it to pass the tax breaks for the wealthy." - That's funny, I actually received checks during the Bush presidency (and I am NOT wealthy.) You probably did too, but just threw it away because it was from that "no good Bush". The tax cuts were across the board. Did the wealthy WHO PAID MORE TAXES receive a LARGER TAX BREAK? Yes, because they PAID MORE IN TAXES THAN PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT WEALTHY.

THIS bill is another entitlement program. It is MORE spending, resulting in MORE taxes. It needed bribes for Nebraska and Louisiana in order to pass (that's right, people from New York, California, Minnesota, and all of the rest will be required to contribute $350 Million for those two states alone!)

I want healtcare reform - I DON'T WANT THIS BILL!

YOU CAN'T SET POLICY WITH RECONCILIATION, so there is zero chance of this bill passing with reconciliation, certain parts could pass, but not everything in the bill. PLEASE people do some homework!

Definition of Kettle Black -

Joe Biden 5/23/05: “I say to my friends on the Republican side you may own the field right now buy you won’t own it forever I pray God when the Democrats take back control we don't make the kind of naked power grab you are doing.”

Tom,

It's called THE RAW ABUSE OF POWER. It's something the Dems have been real good at lately.

By the way, I saw some interesting film clips last night of Reid and Obama talking about how horrendous and unfair it was to use the reconciliation process back in 2005. Hillary was doing it too. Now Harry Reid is ready to do just that. HYPOCRISY !!!!!!

Bush's tax cuts were also good for us poor working folks. Obama did push through a tax break for 95% of Americans, but it based on the tax rates without the Bush cuts.

Bottom line: In 2011 (I believe Bush's tax cuts end in 2010) you will pay more in taxes (unless you are a cabinet nominee, then nothing changes (don't pay them anyway)).

LOOK, the tax breaks that OBAMA said that he gave goes to the BIG COMP'S and they will pass it on down to us. So when you by anything with SUGAR ,Higher Tax, Energy ,Higher TAX, Food with high FAT, Higher tax, you will pay the TAX man one way or another.
People make me laugh, Bush gave us tax breaks, BUT who got the Money, THE OIL COMP'S, OBAMA taxes big Business , BUT who will pay the TAX,The Little man.
This is the way it is don't, Democrats raise taxes on Business, Well Business raises their Prices to meet the Tax hike PLUS 2% Profit.
NOW Republicans get into office and what happens , they lower the Taxes on BUSINESS, BUT do you ever see BIG BUSINESS LOWER Their PRICES. NOOOOOOOO So no matter what happens or WHO is in OFFICE WE the AMERICAN pay for it.

John, Isn't that what happened with BUSH GAVE US THE 1ST STIMULUS.

People seem to think that PBO gave us the first Stimulus, but the first one was from BUSH and it failed, the 2nd hasn't been spent, and we are onto the 7th now? (Cash for clunkers, housing credits, application credits, energy credits, first time home buyers)

Trillions of borrowed money has been poured into the economy and barely if anything has been effected, when do we stop trying to force the economy to act the way we want it to and let it fix itself. (it won't be fixed until the people and the government pay off our debt)

Bush's tax cuts were also good for us poor working folks. Obama did push through a tax break for 95% of Americans, but it based on the tax rates without the Bush cuts.

Bottom line: In 2011 (I believe Bush's tax cuts end in 2010) you will pay more in taxes (unless you are a cabinet nominee, then nothing changes (don't pay them anyway)).

My taxes will be going up significantly and according to the president and the dems, my husband's "CADILLAC" health insurance plan will be taxed 40% over a limit they have chosen. That will add exactly $2041 to our annual taxes. That will take out $2041 from the economy that our family contributes. If 100,000 families in America follow suit, that's 204,100,000.00 dollars removed from the economy. It will keep adding up.

Higher taxes = less money for the economy.

tracytruth

You teabaggers live in your own reality don't you?

You need to get your notebook from the liberal talking points and re-read who you're supposed to call a "teabagger" (aka - puts scrotum in face). You linked nothing but Republican bills.

Shawn - I basically agree. I think the Republicans should use this "summit" (i.e. photo-op) to publically ask the President and his party to identify those Republican-initiated provisions that have been included in the bill to demonstrate any attempt at bipartisanship. An honest answer would embarass the Democrats because the truthful response would be "none." In such a case, how does the President legitimately ask the opposition to support his package?

Disappointed...

You're assuming that we can get "honest" and "truthful" answers from the holy trinity of Obama, Reid, and Pelosi !!!

Did you read the President's proposal that he posted online a few days ago? It actually includes some of the GOP ideas including tort reform. Do some research.

I also assume that everyone who has been clamoring for transparency and C-SPAN coverage will be watching today.

Clotho...

During the past year, 4000+ pages and multiple payoffs have been created completely behind closed doors. Now, this last ditch effort via televised meeting is supposed to a notch in the belt of "transparency" ???

Wow.

clotho,

could you please point out the tort reform provision in the presidents addendum? i have researched it and i can't find it any where. i see a paragraph where there is talk of studying fraudulent claims but that is the closest i have seen to tort reform. perhaps the democrats don't want to lose a huge financial donor in trial lawyers?

Clotho

Did you read the President's proposal that he posted online a few days ago? It actually includes some of the GOP ideas including tort reform.

You fell for the oldest trick in the book. A bill has gone through Congress and went to the House. A reconciliation has to occur of the 2 bills then it goes back for final vote. The president writing another speach doesn't mean ANYTHING. If they took his proposal and went with it, it would be "starting over" as Obama himself has said he won't do.

If everybody thinks that only the Insurance Cos are responsible for the high cost of health care and not doctors, surgeons, and drug Cos, then why Republicans and tehir supporters are so strongly trying to protect the Insurance Cos? If Doctors who earn $150,000 to $200,000/year don't want to see reduction in their pay, then how can the cost of health care be reduced? Can anyone has data on the percentage of cost of healthcare attributed to each player in the health care industry? I am fed up with accusing only the Insurance Cos and leaving out the other players as though they are paid very poorly and in fact some opposers of this bill argue that Doctors and surgeons should be paid even more. Then how can you bring down the cost of healt care?

I dont think there is any solution to this crisis.

And who would want to go to school for 8+ yrs, just to make 40k a year??

They all got that tingly feeling in their legs and fingers they can't type till the get their new talking points from the Messiah

The only people able to watch this today are those who are not at work. It's nice to know that the majority of working people who are the ones paying the bills generated at meetings like today's...will not be the ones watching the dog & pony show.

Why couldn't they have started later in the day ???

There is this thing called the "Internet". And on this "Internet", one can listen to streaming audio/ video on C-SPAN, even at work. If someone has the education to possess a white collar job that grants them a private office and computer.

And of course, everyone but Fox News will be replaying the significant portions of the 6 hour summit later this evening (Fox News will keep cutting away whenever the President starts to humiliate the Republicans, like it did at the Q&A.)

Dang, Clotho, you have an office and a 'puter down at the carwash?? You're moving up, son......

Clotho

There is this thing called the "Internet". And on this "Internet", one can listen to streaming audio/ video on C-SPAN, even at work.