John,

"OK so what about Decade number two when we don't have the first four years of collecting taxes before it is actually put into use?

CAN WE GET THOSE NUMBERS TO PLEASE?"

Exactly. I cannot believe this CBO does not provide these numbers as well.

"Shortly after Kucinich's announcement, a letter was released from 60 leaders of religious orders urging lawmakers to vote for the legislation." Just this statement alone kinda makes me wonder just who our elected are for...they have not so far helped create new jobs...they have however given all federal employees a pay raise when so many have no jobs at all..which will surelyt increase taxes to cover that item alone.Between the lobbyist and now the churchs pushing for this bill...and then the majority leader claiming tha the public will have 72 hours to read this mess...I am afraid of just what the fine print will have in it. And what the actual cost to the tax payers will end up being....not counting the cost of being forced to buy something that we know nothing about.

Nothing says honest and ethical like paying for 10 and only getting 6. Also, if you think that this current administration and congress aren't going to spend the money they collect for 4 years on other entitlement and welfare programs you are crazy!!!

Remember the recent words of wisdom: We won't know what's in the bill until we pass it!

Hey barry...I want to sell you a car. How about you pay me for the next four years and I will let you drive it years 5 thru 10. Then your cost to operate will explode and you have no other recourse because all the other car sellers went bankrupt in years one thru four. See how this works libs? We want reform of our system, no doubt. This boondoggle? NO STINKIN' WAY!!!

Democrats say it will reduce the deficit by $100B in the first decade

Well of course it will. The taxes and fees go into effect NOW. The benefits only come into affect after 5 years. So 5 years of income without paying out anything better reduce the deficit.

Now lets get beyond the spin, what happens in the second decade when we have the fully loaded costs of this bill?

These guys REALLY think we are that stupid?

Please check out this site that a transcript of the interview last night -- Bret Baeir interviewing President Obama. You will notice that even the President does not know what is in this bill, and avoided answering the questions posed by Bret. What a sham! Obama acknowledges that it is 1/6 of our economy, but it won't be taken over in one fell swoop!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,589589,00.html

If they save this much with taking over all our health care, then why is medicare broke? How can you cut a deficit by spending more money? I guess if I charge more on my credit card to pay off my car, then I saved the amount of my remaining car payments. This is the same silly math the CBO used at the arm twisting from the white house!

The dems are "on track" for a train wreck when those of us happy with our health insurance see our premiums go up 30% or more as the direct result of the new "spread the wealth" scheme of hard working citizens with healthcare SUBSIDIZING 30 million NEW subscribers through higher premiums.

Will Obama and Pelosi then BLAME THE INSURANCE COMPANIES for covering their INCREASED COSTS?

YOU BET.

THIS WILL BE THEIR JUSTIFICATION FOR MORE GOVERNMENT CONTROL and "SINGLE PAYER."

We have JUST STARTED down the long winding "SLIPPERY SLOPE" to further LOSS OF FREEDOM and BIG GOVERNMENT CONTROL OVER EVERY ASPECT OF OUR LIVES.

Welcome to the USSA.

Common Sense, if Bret would have let the President answer a question and stop interrupting him maybe you would have been able to hear his comments. Bret was very rude in his interruptions. I would have said this if MSNBC had done this to President Bush when he was in office. Bret was a child in this interview and totally disrespected the office of the President of the United States.

Fair and balanced indeed.

Accept the fact that this will reduce the deficit over the next 10 years. The reason is simple...increased fees and taxes and mandatory health insurance. Of course, that's if you believe all other numbers will remain the same which is the basis (assumption) the CBO started from.

The fact is, if you have "x" dollars of discretionary income and you are forced to pay for healthcare or your healthcare premium increases (which the CBO says it will), that leaves you with less money for other items which means some other segment of the economy will shrink. This equals increased unemployment. Simple economics.

JJ-

BO spouted the party line. "How good, 31 million covered etc etc". He does not have a clue of the specifics of the bill. Neither does Nancy, Harry, Rahm or anyone else.

The dems are "on track" for a train wreck when those of us happy with our health insurance see our premiums go up 30% or more as the direct result of the new "spread the wealth" scheme of hard working citizens with healthcare SUBSIDIZING 30 million NEW subscribers through higher premiums.

You lie......

The cost is 940 Billion dollars. We will be the ones who have to pay for this mess. By the way according to the bill they assume that many employers will drop your health insurance coverage and pay the fine. They also assume that the employers will give raises to their employees in the same amount of savings. These people really are out of touch! Employers will not give raises and employees will be left being dependant on the government which is exactly what they want.

momlags....Just think of all the money corporations, states, and local government and businesses would save when they could dump health care plans.

Noting is free. It will be paid for with your tax dollars.

Anyone believe these numbers? There was a reason why they were not released last night as scheduled, and why they were late this morning. The idea that CBO is an independent arm went up in smoke when Obama called in the head of the CBO and read the riot act to him. Things haven't been the same since.

Like we should believe the CBO anyway. How convenient that the number came in under a trillion. IT'S ALL BULL.

Obama wants to take over 1/6 of the economy and he'll do ANYTHING to get it done. That was his plan from the beginning. BIG FAT GOVT is what OBAMA wants.

This whole thing is OUTRAGEOUS.

Hey Momlags, if $120B you save from ending participation in Iraq would pay for health care like you claim, why is the bill not just for $120B of spending? If you're going to make a ridiculous statement, you really should try to make it at least appear intelligent or accurate.

TJ...Here it is simple and straightforward by an economist:

Talking Points vs. Realty

http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2010/03/16/talking_points_vs_realty

Clearly demonstrates why these numbers CANNOT be believed.

Difficult for me to believe so many Americans are so gullible.

heck Obama and the rest of the senate does not know what in this bill , so what part of the bill did the CBO us? I don't buy this B.S

Madison from NY said:The dems are "on track" for a train wreck when those of us happy with our health insurance see our premiums go up 30% or more as the direct result of the new "spread the wealth" scheme of hard working citizens with healthcare SUBSIDIZING 30 million NEW subscribers through higher premiums.

Premiums in our state are projected to go up 122-178%. 30% would be most welcome compared to what we are looking forward to. I would love to see how the govt. is going to "subsidize" our plan so that we have a lowering of cost. It boggles the mind.

I am not looking forward to losing my health care for the next 4 years, then having poor quality care after that, if at all.

If this passes the poorer working class people like myself will switch parties. We are struggling to make it as it is without the burden of having to buy health insurance.

People will wake up and realize that when the President says he is "providing coverage" for the uninsured, he really means that he will be forcing the uninsured to buy insurance.

My grandparents didn't start out buying insurance. My parents didn't start out buying insurance and they made it ok.

This is all about keeping the poorer people poor, slaving away, never able to get ahead.

I just heard on the radio that even if passed it will cover only "about 95%" of the people. Five per cent of 300 million leaves 15 million still uncovered. What have we accomplished? Covering approx. half of the uninsured that Hussein supposedly is so worried about. I think every state should join the 37 who have declared this health care fiasco nothing but a power grab by Obama and his minions and who have outlawed it.

slowclimber
Hey Momlags, if $120B you save from ending participation in Iraq would pay for health care like you claim, why is the bill not just for $120B of spending? If you're going to make a ridiculous statement, you really should try to make it at least appear intelligent or accurate.

That's because the war costs that a year. $120B X 10? 1.2Trillion.
Thanks for playing.

All very good points, but somewhat irrelevant. The democratic Congress and President Obama had no intention of making this a fiscally sound program. Worse yet, it was never even a consideration. Obama wants to be remembered as a great president, in the style of FDR. Unfortunately, his ego has blinded him to the possibility that all of this could go horribly wrong (this happens when you believe you are the anointed one). If the program truly does bankrupt the country, he'll be remembered alright.

Supporters of this monstrosity are looking for free healthcare. What they fail to understand is that it's not going to be free. They are going to pay for it in higher taxes, lower wages, fewer choices for services, etc. Don't be surprised if you see an extended period of stagnant or nonexistent wage growth (really, do you think business owners are going to foot the bill for this?). You can expect higher prices on everything: housing, plumbing, electrical, hvac, lawn service, painting, auto repairs, gas, convenience store items, grocery store items, phones, computers, and the list goes on. All because of the increase in labor costs (paying health insurance adds to the cost of labor). So, if labor costs in the US increase, where do you think the jobs are going? And any of you that respond, insurance will drive business costs down, I hope you'll rethink your position while you're unemployed (they say people learn from catastrophic changes in their lives).

The democrats in office are hoping to buy votes for their future elections. What they fail to realize is they may pick up some votes in the next election, but if the economy doesn't turn, the average voter, with his newly minted healthcare program, still isn't going to be "happy" if he's unemployed. The problem with entitlements is they're taken for granted and things taken for granted aren't appreciated. So, the democrats will get a very short lived benefit from this.

The interesting thing about reforms like healthcare, banking, insurance, etc. is that companies affected by the new "rules" always adapt and make money--in spite of the government and its regulations. It's the hourly workers and consumers that get "hammered" by these changes. If you don't believe it, go back and look at the credit card reform bill.

After heavy lobbying from Obama, liberal Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio, announced his support Wednesday, becoming the first Democrat to declare he would vote in favor of the legislation after opposing an earlier version.

Kucinich made this decision before the CBO cost estimates were released. Kucinich stated that this bill doesn't have anything in it that he wanted but yet he will vote yes when he voted no before. That should make it perfectly clear that he got something for his vote.

G-MAN65

The dems are "on track" for a train wreck when those of us happy with our health insurance see our premiums go up 30% or more as the direct result of the new "spread the wealth" scheme of hard working citizens with healthcare SUBSIDIZING 30 million NEW subscribers through higher premiums.

You lie......

The CBO already scored the Senate bill which clearly showed our insurance costs would increase 13-15% without any change in coverage. Even Obama tried to spin this fact during the "summit". He was proven wrong.

The CBO scores a bill based on the assumptions provided by Congress..., garbage in..., garbage out...

Do you beleive that there will be any savings or deficit reduction with the bill or the Democrats in power. The costs will sky rocket like all other entitlement programs and will bankrupt our nation. We need to fix social security and medicare before adding a new massive entitlement program.

Deficit reduction completely voided with the inclusion of the costs of the "doctor fix".

It's a sham, and basically a lie.

So sad for the reform opponent but I have a suspicion this thing is going to pass.

We need to throw everyone of these pukes out of office.

Impeach them all.

I think the state's will stop this nonsense just like Virginia and Idaho are trying to do - passing bills to require the states Attorney General to file a lawsuit against the Federal Govt. restraining them from imposing their penalties on taxpaying citizens. But it is really a shame we have to sue our federal government to keep them from stealing from us.

The facts are the bill saves 100 billion in the first decade and almost 1 trillion in the second.

Nay sayers are going to say that "the numbers can't be believed". Most people don't know that the CBO evaluates its prediction against private organization that do estimates. CBO's margin of error is about 2%. So it's very accurate.

Go to www.cbo.gov and read for yourself.

Welllll.........I'm an independent. But I guess I'll have to become a liberal Democrat if their mathematics work!

First, never mind that the $980 billion cost figure is a bald faced lie; it will be more that $2 trillion. (That's Two Thousand Billion, $2,000,000,000,000!)

Okay, I said never mind that. Lets see, according to the Democrat math with the stated $980 billion cost and the $100 billion reduced deficit lets leave off the billions and look at an understandable example:

According to that math, I could have a bank account with a -0- (zero) balance.

Then, I write checks for $980, and magically, the bank reports that I have a $100 balance in the account. I suggest every Democrat that believes this ridiculous lie try this out. You'll make a ton of money.

Biloxipat Obama never intended to help the American people it has always been about government control. The only people that will benefit from any of this is Big Business and Big Government. The Middle class will get poorer with a much lower standard of living. We will no longer have the funds from hard work theo start new businesses and achieve greatness. The poor will just get poorer. And as far as health care it will cost 100 times what they project. Medicare was only supposed cost 10 Billion dollars yet it is now 100 Billion. The cost will become so high that very shortly millions will be dropped from coverage. The State of Tennessee created a public option and in only a few years the cost soared to 1 third of the state budget. Tennessee quickly began to drop millions from TN Care rolls. A new poll from New England also shows that if Obama Care Passes as many as a third of doctors my retire early. Can you say Rationing?? Canada has rationing, UK has rationing do you miraculously think we wont? Obama is a Marxist and his goal is a government controlled society.

Pound4abrown

slowclimber
Hey Momlags, if $120B you save from ending participation in Iraq would pay for health care like you claim, why is the bill not just for $120B of spending? If you're going to make a ridiculous statement, you really should try to make it at least appear intelligent or accurate.

That's because the war costs that a year. $120B X 10? 1.2Trillion.
Thanks for playing.

You actually believe that money would be spent wisely and not wasted like 1 out of every 3 dollars spent on Medicare is today and has been for a very long time? You really believe that the CBO estimates will not be exceeded like EVERY CBO estimate has been from its conception (Medicare estimate X10)?

Thanks for playing, you loose again (signed, our government)!

Pat8

We need to throw everyone of these pukes out of office.

Impeach them all.

I think the state's will stop this nonsense just like Virginia and Idaho are trying to do - passing bills to require the states Attorney General to file a lawsuit against the Federal Govt. restraining them from imposing their penalties on taxpaying citizens. But it is really a shame we have to sue our federal government to keep them from stealing from us.

An obvious sign our Federal Government is WAY to big with WAY to much power that was intended for our States to have.

DUDE-875416
Pound4abrown

slowclimber
Hey Momlags, if $120B you save from ending participation in Iraq would pay for health care like you claim, why is the bill not just for $120B of spending? If you're going to make a ridiculous statement, you really should try to make it at least appear intelligent or accurate.

That's because the war costs that a year. $120B X 10? 1.2Trillion.
Thanks for playing.

You actually believe that money would be spent wisely and not wasted like 1 out of every 3 dollars spent on Medicare is today and has been for a very long time? You really believe that the CBO estimates will not be exceeded like EVERY CBO estimate has been from its conception (Medicare estimate X10)?

Thanks for playing, you loose again (signed, our government)!

Where did you see me say I was buying anything?
I was merely pointing out to a rather arrogant poster the error in their thought pattern. I mean sure, be against something, but at least quote the numbers right on your way to being so self-righteous; otherwise it makes one look, I don't know, a little less than smart.

Oh and I'm pretty sure the Government would sign it, "You lose" and not "You Loose"; since I am fairly certain the Governement can spell.

The CBO only refers to the federal deficit.

California, 1/8th of our population has stated this will cost them $4 billion a year.

I know you liberals hate math, but even excusing the Enron accounting of funded for 10 and used for 6, things do not look so good.

$4 billion x 10 years x 8 (remember Ca. is 1/8th of population)= $320 billion.

$100 billion minus $320 billion leaves the states with a $220,000,000,000 bill to pay. And guess who pays that? Us.

Common Sense-1506918

Please check out this site that a transcript of the interview last night -- Bret Baeir interviewing President Obama. You will notice that even the President does not know what is in this bill, and avoided answering the questions posed by Bret. What a sham! Obama acknowledges that it is 1/6 of our economy, but it won't be taken over in one fell swoop!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,589589,00.html

Good point.

My point: So we will have 72 hours to read this Bill prior to the vote. All 2900 pages or so. Am I to believe Obama will read this bill before signing it into law? Really? NOT

I just attempted to watch Obama's FOX interview in it's entirety, regarding his healthcare bill.

The man knows nothing.

He won't answer a basic question without "campaigning", because he doesn't have the slightest idea what he's talking about. It's both frustrating and embarrassing.

The interviewer (Britt? Brent? whatever), was equally frustrated by Obama's comments, but begrudgingly let Obama CAMPAIGN for most of the interview, and was extremely patient in my opinion.

SURE MR. PRESIDENT, people don't want to lose their house because of medical bills!

People don't want to lose their house for WHATEVER reason.

ENOUGH with this ABSURDITY of a bill!!!!!

It will cost $940 billion but will reduce the deficite? I call BS, especially since the reports I read from the CBO said it will not reduce the deficit since their supposed savings cannot be stated for fact. Something that costs cannot reduce a deficit....

JH,

I don't and never will belong to a party. Not yours or theirs. So I would agree my party is BS since I don't believe in division within a unified state.

The funny thing is you think you did it all on your own. The SYSTEM provided the structure for your success. You did not do it on your own. Capitalist Pigs are the problem and so are the ones who live off of the system.

I disagree with both parties but find the Republicans to be liars who lie for power and that's all POWER. Democrats find that the majority is abused by power and money, and they most certainly take it to far as well. (constant tipping of scales) (this in no way brings equality)

Let me remind you companies are owned and are in no way living. The government is power of the people not companies and industry. They should absolutely be able to regulate but fairly.

So your upset that you are in the same shoes as your pathetic customers? AHHHH! Cry me a river. Serves you right.

The simple fact is you don't feel the effect of a president up tol 4 years after his current term ends. This is what the schools teach. Not my words.

In my opinion Federal government is slow and the majority of power should be cycled through the states. Maybe it is best to centralize but should be more distributed through the states. Where is that Republican Party? The closest government to you is the best government for you.

There are many ways to see something. So its a matter of your present stance not a matter of right or wrong. BALALNCE!

$940 Billion.

What percentage of Americans believe that it will ONLY cost $940Billion? 1-2%?

Nothing that the Government does stays on budget. Anyone want to challenge this?

Each and every day I am more and more amazed at my President. I believed that he would be different. I believed he would empower the people. I was duped. I should have someone smack me for voting for this liar.

This essentially a defined welfare benefit plan. ALL such plans, for actuarial purposes, use a 75 year stream, present valued. THAT is the present value cost of implementing such a program. EVERY defined benefit plan in private industry uses this method, even SS and Medicare uses this basic method for what is included in the Financial Report of the United States Government for SS and Medicare's true costs. When Bush II signed Medicare Part D in the early 2000's it ADDED $11 TRILLION to our accrual basis debt. That was just for medicine for the elderly. What in God's name is total coverage for everyone going to cost? Just setting that aside for the moment, it is out of the box disingenuous to use a different time horizon when talking about such costs, especially given how poorly the Rooseveltistas in the 1930's estimated what the costs of SS were going to be, and how vastly underestimated the costs associated with Medicare were constructed.

All that can be said is my wife and I pay 45% of our income in taxes right now. I'm not going to sit idly by while our witless "noble class" comes calling for more, substantially more. They're not going to get it without a fight.

For the first 10 yrs we're going to have only 60% benefits for 100% of the cost.

That cost of that is being mitigated by cuts to funding that have been promised to be made to other entitlements which are already broke and on course to bankrupt the country with unfunded liabilities, that the politicians have no intention of ever following through on.

That's like saying, "Hey, I take a vacation I can't afford every year, but let me go take this even more expensive vacation and I'll pay for it by cutting out the expense of the less expensive vacation I already can't afford."

Does anyone buy this BS?

And let's not forget, this isn't free.

This still costs $940,000,000,000.00 over 10 years, and that's with all the accounting tricks they're trying to pull over on you to hide the real cost. There is no such thing as a free lunch. This has to be paid for. That means higher taxes on you. You will be spending more, though indirectly, and getting the same or worse care.

Why?

Because there will be more people demanding service from a shrinking pool of doctors as they cut into the amounts they're willing to pay to the doctors, forcing them to either gut their own practice, or stop accepting medicare and medicaid patients. If they opt for gutting their own practice, prices on the rest of all of us will go up. So expect to get double whacked with higher taxes and higher premiums.

The Democrats are running a shell game of "hide the true costs" so people will support something they normally wouldn't. This is all about expanding entitlements we already can't afford by trying to trick you into thinking the price tag is enormously less than it really is.

85% of the country is satisfied with it's health insurance, an industry that only makes a measly 3% profit, which is minuscule compared to most industry. The real costs of health care are driven by other factors. The Democrats bill does NOTHING to address those actual drivers of cost. All they do is exploit voter ignorance in terms of the real costs associated with this to increase entitlements in an already broken cost structure.

And all you need do is look at what happened here in MA under a similar plan. Our health care costs are on an upward spiral skyrocketing out of control since implementing a similar plan, careening upwards to the 2nd highest in the country. On top of that, we now are experience worse health outcomes. Infant mortality is on the rise. We're having a disparate negative impact on poor minorities meaning the legislation may not even be legal under the Civil Rights Act. Hard working people who used to be able to afford insurance no longer can because prices have been forced upwards, but still don't qualify for State assistance, and instead have to be a punitive tax fine for failing to be able to buy insurance they once got the benefit of. The poor who were able to get the State assistance still can't get actual health care because in order to get the monthly payments down to a level they could afford, the deductibles had to be huge, meaning they still can't afford health care -> feeding into the increasingly worse health outcomes and disparate impact. You'll notice the Democrats are eerily silent when it comes to the MA "universal" health plan in terms of this debate, even though they want to use it as their template, and this is why.

It's a mess, and it's a nightmare, and it's coming to you and you won't be able to go anywhere to get away from it if the Democrats pass this bill with this horrendous abortion of the legislative process they are trying to attempt in order end run around the will of the people.

creator

huh?

Since when has the government ever been able to accurately estimate costs of a program? When they say a program will "probably" cost $1 Billion, it normally ends up being closer to $2-3 Billion...if not more. When they estimate $940 Billion, you can reliably expect it to cost $1.9 Trillion.

Once it becomes a government program, the people running it day-to-day stop worrying about keeping costs in check because "it's not their money". I watched it happen time and time again for over 20 years. If you remind them that is in fact "their money", you get eye rolls and reluctant compliance....for a little while. Then they go right back to their free spending ways.

Budgeting has little effect on keeping costs in check when it comes to important government programs. Why? Because the people administering them know that if they spend more than what's budgeted, Congress will pass "emergency funding" to keep the program running.

This whole Health Care Bill has become more about politics and stubbornness than providing a workable plan to provide what was naively promised by people willing to say anything to get elected.

BALALNCE? You wouldn't know "balalnce" if it slapped you up side the head.

Pound4abrown

Oh and I'm pretty sure the Government would sign it, "You lose" and not "You Loose"; since I am fairly certain the Governement can spell.

Sorry for my typo. You claimed the Iraq war costs 120B per year then multiplied it by 10 but overlooked the fact that we are pulling out of Iraq long before that. In fact, is it not planned for us to pull out of Iraq this year? I also want to point out that we are broke NOW. So, to say we can afford health care by pulling out of Iraq is simply wrong. But I'm glad you understood my point due to you being such a scholar as demonstrated by noticing my spelling error. (by the way, Governement is spelled Government.. LOL)

I wonder if the congress will let me borrow the CBO for a while, I want to take out a loan for a multi-million dollar mansion, a fancy Italian sports car and a round the world luxury cruise, the assumptions I have are that I'm going to win the lottery and find a long lost rich uncle that will leave me millions,once the CBO states that based on my assumptions ,I will be able to pay the money back, the bank will most certainly loan me the money,after all, if Congress relies on their estimates, it must be reliable, right.

These people are absolutely out of their minds! 940 BILLION! So they will be spending $9.40 for every dollar saved. That's about the same as the Clunker program. They don't learn much.

November can't come soon enough but I'm afraid the damage will already be done by that point.

Eric - I'll say it AGAIN.

The "doctor fix" was taken OUT of the bills last fall to make them come in under a trillion.

The cost of the "doctor fix" is at least $200 billion and some estimates put it close to $350 billion.

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2009/October/20/stabenow-and-doc-fix.aspx

A recent bill included a stop-gap measure to this ongoing problem which leads to doctors dropping Medicare and cost shifting.

http://www.politico.com/livepulse/0310/Congress_four_week_doc_fix_.html

They've been trying to hide this and kick this can down the road for a very long time, and stripping it out of the bills is nothing but a lie to make the costs look lower than they are.

If this "fix" is included, AS IT SHOULD BE, there is NO deficit neutrality and in fact the bill will add to the deficit based SOLELY on this item.

The CBO can only score what's in the bill, not what SHOULD be in the bill but isn't.

It is a lie.

What are you crazy? If they answered that key question they could not justify putting it into law and fixing it later! Not to mention the fact that I would bet money they said the same thing about Social Security and Medicare and the U.S. Postal Service and look at how well they fixed those items!

It's all about trust and we all know we can't trust the Federal Government when it comes to using our money to allegedly help us.

Congressional Math

I want to sell someone my Mercedes. You can have it for $50,000.

Start paying me for it now and I will give it to you in 4 years.

Anyone?

sparcboy #1.21,

Not bad. However, the parts about taking money from Medicare __— Medicare doesn't have any money __— the government has already "borrowed" it, and spent it __— same with Social Security.

In part because of all the lost jobs from the financial meltdown, Social Security has already informed the government, that it will need to redeem some of those IOU's for cash, so that they can continue to make payments to Social Security recipients THIS YEAR.

Doesn't this sound familiar? Maybe Obama should consult with Bernie Madoff as to how get himself and the Congressional folks out of that corner that they have backed themselves and the American public into.

For your convenience:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

C'mon now. Lets look at the way it is presented, (Will save 100Billion in deficit spending in 10 years). This year deficit spending is about 1.3Trillion. So the way they are selling this is saying we will only have a 1.2Trillion deficit in 10 years! That would still add 10Trillion to the National Debt over 10 years. Owe we can just raise the ceiling again, instead of controlling spending. That will work well won't it. Wake up people we need true reform...

$940 billion, another words, near $1 Trillion to be onslaught to the Taxpayers of America/ the American People..real smart Democratic Party, you are subjugating Unbelievable strain/stress, and despicable turmoil for decades..You Guys ARE NOT doing anyone RIGHT, plain and Simple....

Rrrriiiiiight...and there's no possibility that the CBO gets leaned on by the admin to produce the numbers in their favor. How stupid do they think people are? And really folks...what goverment controled ANYTHING has never gone way over budget, insolvent, bankrupt?

NAME ONE!! anyone...PLEASE!!!

riggznit - With what is happening with the Federal Government today you can say the Republicans are liars? You need your head examined!

I don't think the SYSTEM is responsible for my success or anybody's success. The system is there for us to use to live our lives as best we can or to suck off it as best we can. I prefer to use it to better my life without any help from anybody unless I fall into hard times. And that has never happened to me so far in my life. And I hope it never does because I want you to be able to enjoy the fruits of your labor without me sucking off the system that we all should be paying in to. Life is too short for our government to continue to take our hard earned money to redistribute. We all need to support our government to a certain extent but there are some programs that are so poorly run that we would be far better off without them. This health care bill is wrong. It doesn't even come close to addressing the reason for ever considering it. COST

PEOPLE~ Let us never put our government 1st. Please vote out every single Congressman in the next Election. America was never built on these terms.

Dude, YOU are factually wrong. The CBO said premiums would drop under the plan. They would rise 13-15 % for much better coverage with many more benefits.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/feb/25/barack-obama/obama-says-under-democratic-health-plan-family-ins/

A lot of people stick to math like its the only or the most important part of an Economy. I strongly disagree it is more about the flow of money.

Now if every American saved their money and didn't buy things they didn't need this would be the quickest way to destroy it all. Conservative Americans. This is exactly what the rich do they collect money and limit its flow by doing so.

Compare the current problems and the rise of Mega Billionaires. Tell me there isn't a link.

I am in no way against business or profit. Balance. What kind of system can exist if no one can afford it?

Get ready for TARP 2, the revenge.

Banks got loaded during TARP1, now its the Health Insurance CEO's turn.

Can anyone tell me a government program that has not more than doubled its cost? Never to come in at Budget or under Budget. How can the CBO score a nonexistent bill? Only on promises of changes,that may or may not take place?....

So let me think about this a little bit ... Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but didn't we just go from somewhere in the $870 billion range to $940 billion (not exactly chump change here) and we haven't even gotten the bill signed yet?

Do we think that ANY part of this estimate is really believe-able? I just don't think, right now, given what's on our plate for whatever reason ... we can't afford this!!!

The Raw Abuse of Power by the Democrats has now reached a new level of arrogance. Yes, the arm-twisting, bribes and atrocities continue.............all in the so-called name of Health Care Reform. What we really have, is the most dangerous power-grab I have ever seen in my 60 years of existence.

The Democrats ABSOLUTELY DO NOT WANT the American people to actually SEE what's in this bill...........they simply want to stuff it through, somehow, some way, at ALL COSTS to satisfy the LUST FOR POWER by their beloved fuhrer.......Barack Obama.

This bill will financially damage our country at a time when so many are unemployed....though Obama seems to care little about that. It will raise the COST OF LIVING for all hardworking people as we now are REQUIRED TO CARRY INSURANCE, an insurance that will now increase in cost because of pre-existing conditions, and "SUBSIDIES" (welfare) to "those who cannot afford it".

And who now makes the decisions over OUR health issues? I'll give you a hint.....it's the same fools who are losing billions at the U.S. Postal Service, the same "wise projectionists " that refuse to admit Medicare is broke, and the same idiots who cannot seem to properly manage the existing fraud in Social Security. We will have at least 117 new federal bureaus to add layers of mismanagement, red tape and bureaucracy to our lives.

Sadly, this bill does absolutely NOTHING TO LOWER COSTS. Had this been the primary goal, then many of the other problems would have rectified themselves. If it passes, many of the most experienced doctors will retire in frustration, as the government will be making the decisions for them.

Can anyone envision a "Soviet Union breadline" ?.................only this time, there are people waiting to see the doctor ?

I can only hope and pray every day, that their will be some representatives who will have the TRUE GRIT to stand up and just say NOOO !!! Bad legislation is simply bad legislation.

Many of us want health COST reform, but not this abomination; we've been saying that it's little more than expansion of a further anticipation of a nanny state way of living:

The 10-year plan would provide coverage to more than 30 million people now uninsured through a combination of tax credits for middle class households and an expansion of the Medicaid program for low income people.

Prior comes something that is completely and utterly unbelieveable:

$940 billion health care overhaul bill that would simultaneously deliver on President Barack Obama's promise to expand coverage while slashing the deficit,....

UUUHHHHH...... WHAT?

caibarrien - What if you don't want the extra benefits? If they charge you more for something you don't want doesn't that mean your cost went up? If I want a Chevy and they make me buy a Porsche, I'm going to have my costs go up!!

SPIN SPIN SPIN

caibarrien...The CBO said premiums would drop under the plan. Yes, according to the PLAN.

Check out how well the PLAN worked for Social Security and Medicare, both of which are nearly bankrupt.

940B is a completely unrealistic number and fabricated by the Obama team to make this palatable.

They supposedly are basing this on coverage for 30 million. That works out to $3,133 in medical bills paid per year for everyone that will be getting coverage.

The AVERAGE usage among insured Americans is $3700 per year...and that takes into account all the healthy people that have little or no bills. A lot of these uninsured have medical conditions that are much higher than the normal need.

Add in the additional costs of setting up several government organizations to review medical claims, issue policies, check eligibility, etc.

Add in the costs of the medicare reform to include physicals and do away with the $2200 donut hole in prescriptions.

Factor in the increased unemployment that this bill will cause. Small businessmen are already stretched to the limit. This bill will increase the amount that each employee costs the small business dramatically. Less employment, less tax base.

Does the CBO stand for "Coerced By Obama"?

Is anyone mentioning the millions/billions of $ of pork that has been slipped into this bill to cover personal agendas?

Pelosi and her gang are the clueless idiots that they think we are.

Good one, Duncancl!

But if you sell it to the government, you could ask for $1,000,000,000,000.00. They can't think in smaller numbers, and besides, it's not their money, what do they care what it costs!

Some things I'd mentioned yesterday:

I've said it before; since big pharma has already been gifted by 'no competition', Medicare and Medicaid have recently (few months now) been ONLY using BRAND NAMES, NOT GENERICS, for many common and pricey scripts- BP meds, cholesterol, etc.. .

So, how does this save any money? This is only a first step; nothing passed yet and already expenses are up. If any doubt me, call your local pharmacist and ask them.

The truth is, all we know so far is that this thing will half-azz cover some down the line. Reducing costs? There are no tort reforms, competition enforcement across state lines (which is NOT as difficult as some make it out to be), and promoting higher premiums for those that don't take care of themselves but not excluding them from coverage.

These very simple, cost effective things would be a great start. With the economy, how does anyone even know how many need coverage vs. those that need JOBS? Real ones, with bennies? No matter how it's sliced, it simply doesn't make sense.

Personally, I don't trust either party as far as I could throw a Donkephant. I do wonder, however; if Red had taken all this time and had come up with this same- whatever it is- would those that support it now STILL support it then? Or, would they be clamorin for something better, something with real cost savings and affordability, thus insuring more?

All of you crybabies don't rememebr that Medicare part D started taking in taxes for several years before it went into effect also do you????????? Bush must have been a socialist and a nazi also .........

The are making the numbers up;

The CBO Score, As Reported by Steny Hoyer [Kathryn Jean Lopez]

House Budget Committee Ranking Republican Paul Ryan responds to an NRO query about the news this morning: “The Congressional Budget Office has confirmed that there is currently no official cost estimate. Yet House Democrats are touting to the press — and spinning for partisan gain — numbers that have not been released and are impossible to confirm. Rep. James Clyburn stated he was 'giddy' about these unsubstantiated numbers. This is the latest outrageous exploitation by the Majority — in this case abusing the confidentiality of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office — to pass their massive health care overhaul at any cost.”

This CBO reporting this morning really is remarkable to me — the news is simply what Steny Hoyer says it is.

Owebama yesterday:

I haven't seen this myself, all I can go on is what is stated by the article. It does sound to me as if questions were dodged and avoided;

The tone was set early. Baier first asked about the latest efforts in the House to pass the bill, which elicited Obama's standard talking points about the benefits of the overhaul effort. Baier tried to bring Obama back to the question.

Also, this:

It seemed during the interview with Baier that Obama was familiar with the criticism. The president sought to avoid questions about the legislative process Democrats are weighing to pass the proposal.

Again, not having watched it myself I can only go by the article. Certainly not the first Prez to avoid answering questions directly, but he appears equally as guilty as any other.

Many people aren't just upset about the lack of attention to real jobs, the economy, and about this bill (although that would be enough) but also are upset about the corruption and methodology being used, especially when the best answer for doing this as it is has been is the standard 'he and they did it too' (referring to past administrations and Congresses that Owebama and this Congress claim to be NOTHING like).

Some folks need to remind themselves; 2 wrongs do not a right make. And, the poop about 'now or never'.... does anyone really believe that starting this over and doing it right would NEVER happen? It's just going to disappear? THAT is fear mongering.....

As for FOX or any other news stations; don't they ALL have a slant towards party A or B? It seems to me I've seen it more than once....

caibarrien - did you even read your own link?

• Average premiums would be 27 percent to 30 percent higher because a greater amount of coverage would be obtained. In particular, the average insurance policy would cover a substantially larger share of enrollees’ costs for health care and a slightly wider range of benefits. Those expansions would reflect both the minimum level of coverage (and related requirements) specified in the proposal and people’s decisions to purchase more extensive coverage in response to subsidies.

• Average premiums would be 7 percent to 10 percent lower because of a net reduction in costs to insurers, mostly from the changes in the rules governing the individual market.

• Average premiums would be 7 percent to 10 percent lower because of a shift in the types of people obtaining coverage. Most of that change is tied to an influx of healthier people with below-average spending for health care, who would purchase coverage because of subsidies and a new tax penalty for failing to purchase insurance.

Point #1 is probably accurate.

Point #2 is dubious. Does anyone actually believe that insurers are going to pass their savings onto the consumer? And what part of no prexisting condition clauses and guaranteed to issue is going to save the insurance carriers money?

Point #3 is misguided too. Over half of the uninsured CAN afford coverage today but CHOOSE not to buy it. The tax penalty for not carrying coverage is much less than the cost of coverage itself. There is no indication or incentive for they young healthy people to buy coverage.

As this article (continued topic, perhaps) updates, it should be becoming more and more obvious to many: there are a PEE load of loop holes, loose ends, open ended lawyer politico-speak, etc... in this book.

There has to be.

Even Obama is saying it's O.K. to pass something, anything. While there may be several reasons for this of a different nature, it really just about comes right out and says that once the book is passed, the Pandora's box of tricks and tooling shall begin.

I guess he's not very good at keeping secrets. This is the appropriate time to start worrying about 'back door' and the like..... what IS behind door #1,2,3,4,....or 1,004?

John 11:35

"OK so what about Decade number two when we don't have the first four years of collecting taxes before it is actually put into use?"

$1.3 trillion savings the second decade. All this hollering and nonsense about death panels, government take over, and deficte cost, are the same rhetoric in the early nineties when Clinton raised taxes on the wealthy, "it will cost jobs, "it will stifle the economy" guess what ...the rich got richer and the debt was reduced, same argument every time about the minimum wage....it will cost jobs...Never Has.

The only Republican attempt at health care in the last forty years DID increase the deficit in the Prescription Medicare bill in 2003, which was unfunded. The Republican party is completely bankrupt of any ideas, and the few they have proposed over the years are in the bill, like the Mandate for individual coverage proposed by Republican Grassley and others in 1993, The End of Life Counseling proposed by the Indiana Republican representative Doctor (the quote death panels).

Its the same with the economic crisis, The OMB said the only portion of the stimulus bill that had no effect on jobs, or stimulus, was the corporate tax cuts proposed by the Republicans and enacted by the adminstration in looking for bipartisanship, a wasted 1/3 of the stimulus for an incompetent opposition. I shall never forget that when this nation was headed for the second coming of the depression, gift wrapped by the Republican party, they stood by and manufactured lies, propaganda, and revisionist history, in hopes of sustaining the crisis for future political gains.

I hope the bill passes and we spend the next few years tweaking the bill as it comes on line, what ever is not effective we can change, whatever needs to be added we can add, the point is we will have a structure in place to massage.

One would think that if the Dems were REALLY interested in transparency and demonstrating how "good" this bill is, they would hold off until they had the final CBO numbers and the final bill language so we all could witness how wonderful the final product is.

... Right!!!!

... somehow I just don't think that's their motive.

Donald Van Suilichem #1.33,

Answer to your question NO (expletives deleted).

Considering that the federal government has already taken the money from Social Security and Medicare, giving them IOU's, and spent the money already. The amount of money taken would take some time, lots of luck, and the government keeping its hands out of the cookie jar. Odds aren't looking too good.

In case you want to see the red ink:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

From the article:

Democrats are promising 72 hours for lawmakers and the public to review the legislation once it's released

Gee, ObamaCrats, thank you for giving us 72 hours to read your 2700 page Bullsh!t Bill. It's not like we have a life. We can skip meals and bathroom breaks just so we can read this crap, right? Maybe our children can cook and take care of themselves for the next 3 days while we read your precious billl. Maybe our bosses will let the entire American public take the next 3 days off to review this bill, eh? @$$holes.

Palco:

I hope the bill passes and we spend the next few years tweaking the bill as it comes on line, what ever is not effective we can change, whatever needs to be added we can add, the point is we will have a structure in place to massage.

... and when was the last time any "tweak" of an entitlement ever resulted in a LOWER cost?

If it isn't right on the start ... then it should be stopped. History is on the side of that approach.

In a last minute flurry Wednesday, Democrats were revisiting details of a planned tax on high-cost insurance plans that's been a sticking point for organized labor. Richard Trumka, head of the AFL-CIO, met with Obama at the White House on Wednesday, and officials said the labor leader raised concerns. Obama has proposed significantly softening the tax in keeping with an earlier deal with organized labor, and labor leaders want to preserve that accord, at a minimum.

Wow, even after the public has voiced concern over the back room deals at the White House, on Air Force 1, and in both Congressional Chambers, the President continues his defiance to the public and holds AGAIN, another meeting with AFL-CIO union members to further CUT A DEAL.

I don't care what the OMB has to say about the fluffed costs, THIS BILL SHOULD BE SENT DIRECTLY TO THE SHREDDER.

We should be outraged at the White House and our Congressional Representatives.

JH and Sparcboy, the reason minimal benefits will be required is because the vast majority of insurance claims are for smaller illnesses. Catastrophic coverage won't help most people. So when someone has the flu and they end up in the emergency room with no insurance and 5,000 dollars in charges, the rest of us pick up this cost through increased premiums of over 1,000 dollars in higher insurance premiums for us. This is not fair.

Finally, I'm tired of Republicans going around saying social security and medicare don't work and they are broke. They have a funding problem because their premiums have not gone up in years. Congress has to pass a law to increase those premiums slightly and poof they'll be fine for another quarter century. Don't insurance premiums rise every year and many by double digits? Well the medicare deduction was last raised over a decade ago. These government programs are very efficient and have been very successful. Don't believe me? Can you mail a letter UPS or Fedex accross the country for 44 cents? Yea right?

this is not health care reform. it is only punishmment for insurance companies and additrional entitlements, welfare. real reform would have tort reform and crack downs on drug companies to really reduce health care costs which would reduce insurance costs. if it passes my representatives will hopefully be unemployed at their next election.

palco; respectfully, we differ on this:

$1.3 trillion savings the second decade. All this hollering and nonsense about death panels, government take over, and deficte cost, are the same rhetoric in the early nineties when Clinton raised taxes on the wealthy, "it will cost jobs, "it will stifle the economy" guess what ...the rich got richer and the debt was reduced, same argument every time about the minimum wage....it will cost jobs...Never Has.

Clinton raised taxes AND signed NAFTA (tooled by Red as well). Jobs were leaving our shores by the dozens prior, by the droves after. The rich did get richer (corportisticly speaking) but jobs were readied on the chopping block. Deals take some time, but that wasn't a proud moment for America (although, neither was the repeal of Glass-Steagall, implementing GLB and the CFMA, which I understand is to blame on Blue and Red).

Debt was reduced the same way 'faux profits' are reported now on Fallstreet.... contraction. But, NOT contraction of government. Many of us believe that's where it should have started and continued.

Raising minimum wage does nothing to address the problems at hand, it only adds to inflated funny money, whereby poorly regulated and deregulated legislation uses this to add to costs.... that is easily, though time consumeably, checked via statitistics. Raising minimum wage has oft times caused negative 'ripple effects', from those just above the minimum wage earners ending at costs at final sale, and if not for the sell-out of our economy by Blue and Red, really were jobs meant for supplemental income; students, retirees, those temporarily needing a 'boost', etc... . They're NOT intended to be living wages, although ironically, for many that's what they're becoming.

I'm no more pro-Republican than you, believe it or not. I just happen to blame equally. As I noted above, prescription costs for Medicaid and Care are going up without anything passing yet; brand names vs. no choice for generics on coverage; coverage done on our dime.

caibarrien:

They have a funding problem because their premiums have not gone up in years. Congress has to pass a law to increase those premiums slightly and poof they'll be fine for another quarter century

So I translate this that your taxes need to be increased in order to pay for benefits. So ... by what extension of logic would you NOT believe such a condition would also occur with this new health care entitlement?

Cost, Cost, Cost ... TOOOOOOOOOOO HIGH!

is that all? obama can call oprah for that amount.

Pound4abrown

That's because the war costs that a year. $120B X 10? 1.2Trillion.
Thanks for playing.

I agree we should get out of Iraq. But even if we did, I still wouldn't endorse using the savings from leaving to pay for socialist/marxist/communist healthcare. Never that.

Thanks for playing.

If you believe that this will cut the deficit by 100 billion, you also believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, ...

Okay where’s the poll on here so we can see a vote? I’ve seen polls for laws on regulating salt in restaurants, ones on whether or not same sex couples should be allowed to the prom… how about setting up a poll to see who does or doesn’t want to see this healthcare reform pushed through. If there’s one, please let me know so I can vote.

When it comes to government, any government, promises are made to be broken. We can write of cost projections now until doomsday, it makes no difference. The projected costs spewed out are always wrong in the end--everything comes in over-budget. One of the most recent examples of big government spending in action: cash for clunkers--such a failure they called it a success when they had to return to the trough for more money. Observe the failure of social security--the security of I.O.U.'s. How many even realize that the high cost of health care is due to government involvement in health care? The Great Society, is now the Broke Society. If the government is more involved in health care than they currently are, does this mean cost goes down? I doubt it, and so should all Americans. Finally, there are those Americans that are too free with other people's money. These Americans should wear the proper attire and carry the proper tool when writing or speaking of their support of this health care bill--a ski-mask and a gun. The government doesn't have any money of its own--everything it has is stolen goods.

This total fiasco has tied up the congress and senate for a year now. Next will be the court system as this "THING" is contested right up to the day the Supreme Court rules it "Unconstitutional". What sweet payback to Obama for his rude remarks aimed at the SC in the State of the Union Address.

There won't be a second decade. By the end of the first decade, we're going to be well over $24 TRILLION in debt, if current projections are even half-assed accurate.

Think about it. $2 trillion a year comes in through taxes. $3.6 tril goes out. How long can we continue on this path? Does anyone seriously think we can keep borrowing forever? Debt service alone chews up nearly a quarter of the revenue now - how much worse is it going to be when we've got twice as much debt - and an economy stagnant under the weight of taxes and environmental regulations designed to cripple business?

My Doctor told me the other day if this passes I will never see him again. He was being a bit facetious but his point was the PTB don't put a high value on General Practioners, specialist's yes but not GP's (same deal in my line of work). We will either see PA's in the future or a revolving lineup of doctors, and God help you if your chart is not updated.

This government SUCKS!! How are people suppose to pay for all this crap? Big Brother crook knows what's best and will help us when we have nothing and need some bread crumbs. Big Brother doesn't listen to us and doesn't care about us. This really sucks, I hate what this country is now. Nothing but lying crooks that keep getting voted in or are the elections fixed now also. I hate that real Americans that really serve this country keep getting sent somewhere to fight wars, to get murdered, that are none of our business. But the oil companies and others find it a must. The filthy crooks in congress and big business are going to kill us all. One day, all of america will pay for what this crap government is doing.

Let me get this straight. If the hospitals don't improve they way they are ran if this is passed they will be shut down. So if hospitals are shut down say in your town or a 30 mile radius from your house closes down, do you have to travel over an hour to see a doctor? If it is an emergency, how long will it take for the ambulance to get there? Will you make it to the hospital alive when it takes over an hour to get to the hospital because all the local ones were closed down? That is just absurd to say they are gonna shut down hospitals. I guess everyone will have to be transported by helicopter so they will be charged 3 times as much as the ambulance ride would cost. I don't see the rational here, but again what Obama and the Dems want they will find someway to pass it even if the American public doesn't want it.

It's very simple. When this monstrosity has bankrupted the country, democrats will do what they always do . . they'll blame republicans.

If we concede credit to democrats for every "historic change" that has ever taken place, while stipulating that no democrat has every been at fault for anything bad, then perhaps we might begin to have some serious policy discussion. Until then, forget it.

Congress say they'll vote on Sunday. The only thing that I can do is vote in November.

Does anyone seriously think we can keep borrowing forever? Debt service alone chews up nearly a quarter of the revenue now - how much worse is it going to be when we've got twice as much debt - and an economy stagnant under the weight of taxes and environmental regulations designed to cripple business?

As to your first question: Unfortunately there are at least two. (on this thread)

And I firmly believe that if Obama asked them to jump off the bridge, they'd readily leap to their deaths.

Because, you see, it's all about defending the man, not the bill.

This bill is simply unaffordable.... Break down that cost $940 Billion... If it provides coverage for an additional 30 million, that's a cost of $3133 per year per person. Current medicare spending is much higher than that per person... $4993. Now you say the bill will cust medicare costs by $500 billion. If you divide that by 30 million people, that's only a cut in per capita spending of $1666 per year. That equates to a cost still of $3327 per year. Still and increase in costs to an already bankrupt system!

ModerationInAllThings

That was not an endorsement of Clinton or to say the Dems are guiltless, its just there is no opposition party anymore, just a clueless ideological shell of what was once a Republican party, I believe it has be so since 1996 in particular.

You know what really ticks me off about all this...Obama ran MONTHS on changing the way things work in Washington, getting rid all the backroom stuff, openness etc etc. He's been quoted all over the place prior to his Presidency as disliking how things get done in Washington and he was the man for us to represent all us regular folk.

HE LED AMERICANS TO BELIEVE HE WAS GOING TO "CHANGE" ALL THAT IF THEY VOTED FOR HIM

Yesterday in his interview with Fox he basically said

"Ah I don't care how the house approves it, that's up to them on how it gets done"

Come on man, people voted for you based on what you told us in 2008 and you won.

I absolutely hate people like that. I truly hope every single American realizes how they were manipulated for votes by a shady politician.

If he was true to his word you'd see a more proactive President on how things were done there.

actually the CBO did provide the numbers . they say it will save 1.2 trillion in the second 10 years

John, The CBO has announced that the numbers in the editorial are not on the latest bill anyway. They have had no access to what these numbers will budget. MSNBC just like a lot of liberal medias jumped the gun to make this false announcement. The libs just wanted something to make you feel they weren't the first class liars they are. CBO did not release the real numbers until 10am EST. This article was posted at 8:34am EST.

It saves 100 odd Billion in ten years if you don't count the Doc fix for Medicare that will go separately. If you count that, it's in the hole by about 60 or 70 Billion. It's a bunch of smoke and mirrors BS all the way through.

The good news, with all the new beuracracy there should be a few more jobs out there and maybe the DEMS can cast this clunker as a JOBS bill as well.

They don't want you to know those numbers yet. Besides $500 billion will be taken away from the Medicare fund. Without that what would the numbers be?

Just read in the Seattle Times that 121 Walgreen's Stores to Stop Taking New Medicaid Patients. So Obama Care is already failing prior to the bill being signed. This is great Democrats, Great job. So I presume that other Walgreen's in other cities will follow Seattle's lead. Great job Democrats and Obama on ruining America.

caibarrien...."Finally, I'm tired of Republicans going around saying social security and medicare don't work and they are broke. They have a funding problem because their premiums have not gone up in years."

Read some history. Social security is broke because the government keeps robbing it (interpret Americans). How do you think Clinton was able to claim a surplus? By robbing Social Security of $340 million. Medicare, which is the existing government insurance option, is wrought with fraud and mismanagement. Has little, if anything to do with inadequate funding.

$940 Billion over 10 years and lower the deficit by $138 billion in the same amount of time...BS! You can't spend that kind of money and lower the deficit while doing it. It makes no sense...unless you are going to tax the crap out of the middle class.

This administration is insane! Generations will be burdened with this if it passes. Can you say 40-50% percent income tax! We've already been buried in trillions of dollars of debt and this psycho is pushing to create more.

Additionally, helping mostly people who are already on the government tit, many if not most are illegally benefiting, is not something I will ever support. Rewarding people for collecting welfare and having babies, who also require welfare, by giving them full medical coverage...if you people don't see what is going on here, you must be blind!

This can't pass, not only because those that mostly benefit are the same ones already benefiting, but because it will bury us and future generations in more debt.

I agree Bloggerrich..I agree, this is extremely sad. The ultimate goal here is to level everything in this country and have the middle class and rich people pay for it. You really do have to be blind not to see that.

I certainly hope some people stand up against this in government so it doesnt pass.

Insurance companies would face unprecendented federal regulation. Health care industries would be hit with new federal taxes

And these costs will be passed on to the consumers. So how is that going to lower costs? The premium increases used to offset the increased cost of care. Now the price increases will be to pay the Federal government. And we all know the government is not a health care provider. I would much rather pay the Doctor or Hospital than the Government. At least I get a needed service from the Doctors/Hospital.

What happened to this same bill only costing us $400B? Now it's more than double ...gee who all are they paying off for their votes?

This bill is unconstitutional and will go straight from Obama's desk to the Supreme Court! It's not a healthcare bill --it's a massive tax bill.

Just remember that they can make people pay for it but they can't make a doctor accept your insurance as payment! Don't say the doctors want it or you haven't been getting emails from this doctors' group which represents thousands of doctors against this bill!

Obama better be putting the money back into the Social Security Trust that they took and are still stealing! He's going to need it to pay the mass exodus of doctors retiring if this passes!

If this thing passes, you will see it fail in the real world aspect. Need to make a doctors appointment for a pregnancy check up...it will take months to actually get in. I already know doctors that schedule appointments months in advance. Most will likely pick and chose who they want to see.

This is doomed for failure and it will cause many problems beyond what we already have.

If this bill didn't support anyone already on the government tit, I would think it is a more reasonable bill. But to give these people more money for doing nothing, but getting pregnant is not going to fly.

I VOTE NO! If this bill passes, we should perform a "recall election" and remove this administration for mismanagement.

So Eric, maybe you can explain something the President can't explain and neither can Pelosi or Reid. If you cut half a trillion dollars associated with fraud from Medicare like the plans call for and you spend it someplace else like the plans call for, how have you saved any money? Obama went into a song and dance and could not answer the question and became indignant at the question when asked a second time.

That half a trillion dollars supposedly from fraud in the entitlement program is what the CBO scored, so if you spend the five hundred billion elsewhere, you haven't saved the one thin dime Obama use to talk about during the campaign about my taxes. See the problem comes from lack of experience, almost any business man can tell you if you take from the left side of the ledger, you must have an equal input on the right side of the ledger. You can't do it twice, because your books no longer balance. It's probably the first fundamental of accounting

I can hear the GIANT flush on Sunday, as the USA takes the first quantum leap down the toilet!!!

For all of you that support THIS health care reform bill, I have a question. What happens if this bill turns out to be what many of us suspect?

You see, if those of us who do not support the bill are wrong, no big deal. I'll be the first to eat crow. But if you are wrong, we're in it up to our you know what. What happens if our taxes go up considerably and our health costs rise and they ration care? What then? What happens if the number of doctors decrease and you have to wait months for treatment? What happens if they deny you drugs that are deemed cost prohibitive? What will you do?

The entire healthcare debate, if you can call it debate, seems to have evolved into the American People vs the American Government. I cannot remember, in my life time , another time where the government was so hell-bent on forcing its will on Americans. Why are Pelosi, Reid and Obama still not listening to the majority of Americans, who are telling them not to go there?

Everyone here knows that the if this passes EVERY single screw up that happens in the health field with patients will be blamed on Obama now.

I can't wait for the day when all those people who feel like the government owes them everything are sitting there complaining about their doctor visits, mess ups due to lack of health care professionals etc. (because they're bound to happen, and be worse). And I'll sit there and say "Hey man its Obama's fault".

Obama's whole reputation is on the health industry now if this passes. Every single screw up that happens I, along with everyone else, can blame him (instead of now on insurance agencies and doctors).

I'm buying a new house.

After I make 4 years of payments I can move in. Then after the 10th year my payments go up astronomically and I go bankrupt.

Can't wait to sign the papers.

Just how much is MSNBC getting paid to spin this crap ? I mean really, one retired bishop is for this plan and MSNBC says Catholics are equally divided ?

How about this phrase: "Then both chambers will quickly pass a package of fixes agreed to in negotiations with the White House." Again, Barack Obama wants to be dictator ! His job as Chief Executive is to see to it that LEGISLATION PASSED BY THE HOUSE AND BY THE SENATE is carried out. Nowhere, does it say he was elected Chief Legislator.

The absolute seduction of power must be amazing ! Never have I seen such a complete rape of our country's entire legislative process.

Just finished reading the CBO document. The second decade also lists deficit reductions.

Here is the CBO document:

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/03/18/hr4872.pdf

How can anyone believe the CBO? This is the same group that in 1965 when Johnson was pushing for Medicare that projected in 1990 Medicare costs would be 19 billion. In actuality, in 1990 the Medicare cost was 211 billion. Not even close. All one needs to so is compare the cost per capita in countries like France or Canada and one will conclude using very basic math that this abomination when enacted 4 years from now will soon cost over 1 trillion a year with fewer doctors and rationed substandard health care.

The CBO is simply a propaganda entity used by socialists to promote their ideology.

This bill is not at all about health care but control.

You must multiply CBO figures by 6-10 times to get the true figure of the cost of this nightmare. That does not include all the illegals(future Democrats) who will flood in from Mexico to get "free" health care that everybody else will pay for in spiraling rates. It also does not answer the basic questions; where do all the additional doctors and nurses come from to provide health care to the 30 million people being added to the system? And with 76 million baby boomers going on social security and medicare, how are they sustainable and will there be rationing or lowering of care? People get ready for a total collapse of our economic system, our day of reckoning is just around the corner!

Please read the CBO document before you criticize it. They do explain exactly what the numbers are based on. They don't take into account future revisions to a program, as was the case with Medicare, nor to they extrapolate 45 years into the future. They were generous to give info on the second decade. Remember they are non-partisan experts.

Welllll.........I'm an independent. But I guess I'll have to become a liberal Democrat if their mathematics work!

Stay independent. Neither party can handle math.

The joy of being an independent is you have free rein to mock both sides. The agony is that the party slaves keep effing things up for the rest of us.

The CBO has to score a bill as it's presented. They can't apply common sense to it. Since the bill has 10 years of taxes and 6 years of benefits it's not hard to show it's going to lower the deficit. But, who would buy health insurance that had them charge you for 4 years before you could use it?

So the bill costs $940 billion and they estimate about $100 billon in deficit reduction which means they are planning on taking in about 1.1 Trillion in taxes over 10 years, that's $110 billion every year.

The bill costs $940 billion for 6 years of benefits, that's about -$156 billion a year.

Not hard to see this plan is going to be ADDING to the deficit by $46 billion a year. And that's assuming the government manages to stay on budget which never happens. They know this but are touting the numbers anyways.

Throw the bums out!

There you go, it reduces the deficit by increasing taxes. It increases taxes in two ways, one by reducing a tax credit and two by taxing cadillac plans. Now follow me liberals since I know you have a hard time with numbers. The cadillac plans will eventualy scale back in response to this legislation so those taxes will not increase like the CBO asumes but will decrease. There go your savings. This is not reform it is just another government giveaway. If you think it necessary say so, but don't label it money saving or reform, it is neither.

Rep Steve Lynch (D-MA) will vote against the Health Care overhaul

He's doing it to protect Union interests, something I'm not generally in favor of, but I'll take it. That's one previous Yes vote flipped to No, at least that's a counter to Kucinich. This thing is going to come down to the wire, and of course if they thugs don't have the votes by Sunday, they'll delay the vote again. But if that can happen, we can have Reps going back to angry constituents during the recess to hear an earful of why they don't want this, and the closer this thing gets to the November elections the harder it will be to pass.

I'm buying a new house. After I make 4 years of payments I can move in. Then after the 10th year my payments go up astronomically and I go bankrupt.

Can't wait to sign the papers.

Colonel, ....And you financed your loan through Fannie Mae.

caibarrien

Dude, YOU are factually wrong. The CBO said premiums would drop under the plan. They would rise 13-15 % for much better coverage with many more benefits.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/feb/25/barack-obama/obama-says-under-democratic-health-plan-family-ins/

Ok, so when the government requires minimums regarding your insurance as they do in this bill, then you will see an increase of 13-15% in costs that you cannot do anything about. But hey, you get better coverage though. Pffff.. how can Americans afford better insurance if they can't afford it now? Wake up caibarrien and stop spewing the Democratic talking points that do not tell you the whole story.

It goes UP!

How do you spend a TRILLIAN DOLLARS and save a hundred thirty eight BILLION?

That's like saying...if I take a hundred dollars from my right pocket and put it in my left pocket.......i've saved money. Balonie!

Didn't our Congressional leaders just issue an invitation?

MARCH on Washington, DC (walk, drive, metro, trains, planes)

Destination: MAIN ENTRANCE to CONGRESS 10:00 AM EST SUNDAY, March 21, 2010

Bring your megaphones

2800+ pages in 72 hours. If you read continuously for 24 hours a day you would have to read 40+ pages per hour and not stop. That is just reading - not referencing or fact checking.

Congress is a joke. The President is a joke. I am so sick of politics. People are out of work and looking for for a dollar and the idiots in Washington are spending it like a teenage girl at the mall.

What good is health care when people are going to be dying from the stress of being out of work?

Said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi: "He wants to be here for the history."

To me that says it all regarding why the President wants this to pass no matter what it does to the coutnry in the future....

From the CBO report:

Although CBO completed a preliminary review of legislative language prior to its release, the agency has not thoroughly examined the reconciliation proposal to verify its consistency with the previous draft. This estimate is therefore preliminary, pending a review of the language of the reconciliation proposal, as well as further review and refinement of the budgetary projections.

Couple of points: This is an estimate which means it is a fancy guess. Next, it is a review of the reconciliation proposal which has NOT been seen and no one knows what is in the reconciliation proposal. Finally, the Dems were talking about "deem and pass" of the Senate Bill and not the reconciliation proposal. This whole CBO thing is a farce and can someone please show me where the CBO has ever been correct.

Pelosi just wants to pass the bill so can find out what's in it.

To all scam artists out there, Pelosi apparently signs things before she reads them, looks like you have your next pigeon.

duncancl

The politicians couldn't care less about us, the middle class, as we work hard (if we still have a job) and just put up with this type of thing. I can't believe that there are so many gullible people out there that listen to MSNBC and think they actually report facts, all they are hate mongers and fear mongers. Ed Schulz complains about the Repub's fear mongering but he turns around and does the same thing. Is anyone else tired of the hypocritical liberals?? I know I am.

1.70:

Savings are necessary for a fundamentally strong economy because savings lead to investment, which leads to capital formation, which leads to production. We have become an economy that is 100% relient on spending, instead of a happy medium between spending, producing and saving. Eventually lenders will stop lending us money. Once this happens, the party is over. Unfortunately, it seems most Americans think the party will go on forever.

1.125:

Great post, could not agree more.

Forget the savings and deficit reduction numbers. I want the endless parade of assumptions the Dems gave to the CBO to get the savings and cost numbers they wanted. It's a lot like the Global Warming nut cases using fudge factors to make their "hockey slip" look convincing.

Pound4abrown,

Sorry - but neither of us truly believes that military spending in Iraq will remain at the same levels in perpetuity. More deceptive allegations. Not to mention that there is zero possibility whatoever that the actual cost will be $940B.

Thanks for playing.

stormerF #1.72,

I'm close enough to the DC area to catch the local news there. Within the last week they had one of the politicos being interviewed. They stated that basically the CBO only verifies the arithmetic. They do NOT research to see if the assumptions are valid or NOT.

Is it any wonder that the USA is in such dire shape with the economy and all of those funds that are supposed to take care of our needs ( supposed to have money, but don't )?

Gee, if we were doing this, wouldn't that be embezzlement ?

Meanwhile, back at the Iraq and Afghanistan War ranches, the cost per year is well over $120 Billion per year. And with no sign of ever reducing the deficit

While the new Health-care bill will average around $94 Billion per year and shave $10 billion per year of the deficit. BTW, unofficial scoring show savings of close to $1 Trillion for the second 10 years.

So, no one cares about spending more money on things that only kill people and destroy countries, but are having fits over something designed to at least help people when they get sick, and also reduce our deficits. Not to mention the long term benefits of having a healthy populace.

But, in a country that loves its guns so much, I shouldn't be surprised.

jkrystof #1.112,

Don't beat yourself up. Assuming that this administration and Congress don't do any irreparable damage, you'll learn to tell when someone is lying to you, and you should gain wisdom to help you avoid this and many other problems in the future.

One thing that's going to prove very interesting:

Right now the libs and dems are screaming and screaming for this to happen even though they have to logically know it means a massive increase in taxes and the role of government over our lives. But right now the dems are in power so they just see it as their party having this control and they really aren't that concerned.

BUT, realistically one has to understand that eventually the Republicans will again be in power and this massive government take-over will still exist. And the dems will then have to deal with it under them.

I wonder if they will look at the whole thing as favorably when the Republicans are the ones with this massive power over their lives.

Makes you think.

The facts are the bill saves 100 billion in the first decade and almost 1 trillion in the second.

Nay sayers are going to say that "the numbers can't be believed". Most people don't know that the CBO evaluates its prediction against private organization that do estimates. CBO's margin of error is about 2%. So it's very accurate.

Go to www.cbo.gov and read for yourself.

Just to reiterate the first post that makes sense. I'm sure there were others, but this was the first. Yes, this bill saves money the first 10 years. But the real savings are the second 10 years. This bill needs to be passed.

I assume the tea baggers are not interested in slowing deficit spending, but if they were they would be backing this bill.

Looks like it's time for a Constitutional Amendment.

So Obama says his presidency depends on passing Obamacare! A message from me to you Obama: (1) It's you fault that you bit off more than you could chew by deciding to completely re-make our healthcare system (it's not your business and damn sure not the governments business so get your filthy hands off of our healthcare. This is about We The People and not your dead ass. (2) Why didn't you pass it when you had complete control of congress and there was nothing the Reps could do? - Because there was just enough Democrats that understood that Obamacare was the wrong approach and would be disastrous to the nation. (3) You, Pelosi & Reid then decided to go for the jugular by taking advantage of your control in the house and senate by going for the whole socialist enchilada but you didn't count on Scott Brown. He wound up being the turd in your punchbowl didn't he? (4) You are a liar because you make misstatements of fact all the time in your defense of your bill. For example, you refer to this vote being Obamacare or the status quo. I seem to recall that at your recent "bi-partisan summit" (what a joke), the Republicans had great ideas that were not expensive and not intrusive which would be relatively simple to do, effective and in-expensive. Of course, that would not lead to the socialization that you want - and it wasn't your idea was it smartass?

If for any reason, you get the necessary votes, I would hope that the 37 or so states that have said they will sue the federal government will do so. Idaho is the first to say they definitely will. I have asked our governor to do the same. The federal government may trump a single state but if 37 of them sue, it will become a constitutionality issue and guess what - you lose! Every person reading this that is not in favor of this should contact your governor and demand that your state sue the federal government should Obamacare pass.

It's time to impeach all Democrats.

08/13/2010 looks like a good day for that.

Oh Bobin and John it gets worse then that. name one program were the taxes collected on them actually went to that program. Think about how well goverment has saved up on soical security and medicare, and then ask if you think that they are actually going to save that money for when they have to start paying out 4 years later.

At sparcboy your half right, the goverment mis management and use of social security has weaken that system, the goverment on both sides of the isle has used that it's own personal piggy bank because it collects so much money and intill now has had to pay out so little. This has weaken the base, but SSI would still collaspe because of were you got it wrong.

Were you get it wrong though is when you add things that have changed. SSI was a ponzie scheme, when first introduced most people diden't make it to 65, now people are living well into there 80's. Also add in things like the baby boomer america's largest generation is going to start retiring and the way they have it set up is those not retire pay for them out of there own SSI. Are population growth is shrinking and to add insult to that injury is modern jobs don't pay has much (adjusted for inflation of course) has they did 20 years ago. It's headed into big big proglems.

This is the breakpoint toward a communist US government. Income redistribution is the goal. I hope to God the healthcare of Obama fails. That is our only hope to remain free.

President Barack Obama's promise to expand coverage while slashing the deficit, a strategy aimed at winning

How this is worded?
A new constant source and protected flow of monies to help pay for everything we have barrowed from China?? Why are they so desperate to pass this ledgislation?

They seem to have an attitude of no matter what, no matter the cost, no matter the carelessness of this whole plan being hacked together too , not for, the American public , this has to go through?
I v`e never seen them so desperate and threatening?

"While slashing the deficit"
The slashing the deficit sounds far more important than the expanding coverage part, lest we all forget, if your families Insurance premiums aren`t paid you will be issued a ticket or fine for not doing so, just like driving without insurance.
This is far more important than your mortgage or child's education or your family vacation.
YOU WILL BE FINED if not paid to the Federal Government, hows that suit you for opression?
Guaranteed Insurance to China that our debt will be paid back to them? YEA! It`s insurance all right.

I sure don`t hear much of how good this is for the American public, more like hearing fighting and argument, just a need to get it desperately passed?
I see nothing but a Mare`s nest of deeply buried monies for all kinds of things and this Pelosi seems to be the head spokesperson over all of it.
Is this for taxes being well invested monies to pay debt ? or for Premium health insurances?

They may be selling a horse, but is it that bright gleaming Stallion they are showing?
or that broke down 14yr. old mare they are going to bring around from out back after the auction is over and say we are committed to selling you a horse, we just didn`t say specifically which one?

What screw ups are they not willing to tell the American public we have to pay for? Where their Devil calls the Bluff?
Iv`e seen scale projects like this before, all dead Rats smell the same.
This is the biggest scam this country has ever seen

since The Clintons, we get how many hours to read all 2900 pages of this?

Like Tom Foley giving Congress their pay raise at 1:30am in the morning while the press wasn`t around

Smoke and mirrors...this is not about healthcare, but about controlling us and the economy. It will send us spiraling downward--we cannot afford it at this time. It is all so we will be beholding to the government. What are they doing to senators to get them to change their vote? Threatening them?

$940 billion is 100% B.S. Just check out what Medicaid and Medicare (both bankrupt programs) have cost us compared to what LBJ the Texas Evil Teacher said it would cost back in 1964. If you believe this fairy tale then I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I want to sell to you. Anyone who believes these numbers is seriously deluded. (See democratic congressmen in your Funk and Wagnalls under the word "deluded".)

"It will make history and we will make progress by passing this legislation," predicted House Speaker Nancy Pelosi

She is absolutely right.

It will make history because it will finally turn the United States into a socialist form of government.

Once the bill is passed, they made the progress the progressives and marxist liberals have always wanted - to remove the freedoms we have enjoyed all our lives.

Once this passes, watch out for the next wave of government control. Do you home school? Not any more... Do you worship in a church? Won't be long before that will be outlawed unless it's a state sponsored church - one where they omit all the paths to salvation. Freedom to travel... will be gone before you know it. They have their eyes and ears on us everywhere...

There will be two classes of people. Those in control over the government and the common person... where everyone is marginalized...

This sounds an awful lot like what happened in Venezuila... No wonder Obama is pals with Chavez.... bet they speak to each other on a regular basis on secure lines.

"Democrats plowed fresh billions into insurance subsidies for consumers on Thursday .... last-minute sweeteners....After weeks of secrecy-shrouded meetings, Democrats unveiled 153 pages of last-minute changes"

More payouts, secret meetings, and last-minute changes......isn't that how you always produce a quality product? Disgusting.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've just been reviewing a few CBO reports from 1995-2000 and I'll be damned if I can find any reports that took into account the recessions in 2001 and our current recession/depression.

I trust these CBO reports for future costs as much as I trusted the Global Warming nutcases. I was right there too.

People! People, please ...

Read the actual data before you start screaming. Here is the CBO report from the front page of this website (good grief!):

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_Politics/hr4872.pdf

Almost every question I have read and the rants that follow are well addressed. Before getting worked up, read this nice summary with everything organized for ease of understanding.

John 11:35 and BobInFl, your questions are answered almost immediately.

Please enjoy the CBO report and then give your questions careful consideration by obtaining more facts from primary sources.

If you listen to someone going on and on about it on the radio or TV, you are listening to that person's interpretation of whomever they received their information from, who (until today and the release of this report) obtained their information and had to interpret it. This puts you in at nothing less than 4th-hand interpretation of the actual data.

Use the web sources that both sides of the aisle offer, as well as that of the White House, compare and draw your conclusions ...

Just ... please don't say that you or "Americans don't have time for all of that looking around". Reading and responding to blog posts, the television, chats and instant messaging, video and computer games - all are worthy of sacrifice to learn the facts about the issues that interest you.

Oh I forgot one other thing about this bill, it leads out a price fix for docotrs who recieve medicare payments, it will add another couple of billion dollers to the price.

Now in defense of big goverment (playing devils advocate) there are one or two programs in the past that have actually reduced the defict, but you have more luck winning the lottery then creating a goverment program that actually does that.

Article from WSWS website:

Kucinich throws his support behind Obama health care bill

By David Walsh
19 March 2010

The decision by Rep. Dennis Kucinich, Democrat from Ohio, to vote and campaign among his fellow members of Congress for the White House health care bill falls under the heading of the entirely predictable.

Anyone who has paid attention to the career of this phony populist knew more or less how the process would unfold. Kucinich would slam the regressive measure until close to the end, then fold his tent and meekly bow to the pressure exerted by the Obama administration, and through the latter, the most powerful sections of the American ruling elite.

His most famous previous climb-down came in July 2004, when, after months of denouncing the presumptive Democratic nominee for president, Sen. John Kerry, for his pro-Iraq war views, Kucinich caved in prior to the Democrats' national convention and called for unity behind the Massachusetts senator. In a speech at the convention, Kucinich called on delegates and voters to "blaze a new path with John Kerry and John Edwards."

Kucinich now promises to vote for a reactionary bill that unashamedly protects the profits of the giant insurance and pharmaceutical interests while sharply reducing and rationing care for the majority of the American people.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/mar2010/kuci-m19.shtml

Post #1.11 by JJ "... totally disrespected the office of the President of the United States."

The person we have as President has done that all by himself.

940 billion. Do we have enough? One billion = 1000 millions, so 940 thousand millions there is only 300 million people in the United States,

Guess we need to talk to our great, great, great grandchildren. Doggonit their not born yet, and some of them, because of Obama's declaration of war on the unborn, won't!

Damn Mr Obammy,

$250.00 For seniors, I'm 54 and 100% Disabled Veteran am I a Senior?? That amount is an insult to those idiots that elected you. Gee Massa why don't ya just beat me and send me to my room like my mamma did. Then I can hate you just as much as I hated her. Oh! Wait I already do hate you that much.

People across America are hurting and in their hurt they made fun of Louisiana, saying we were looking for a hand out. Well for your info Mr. Pres who doesn't deliver on his Campaigne promises! We lost two major hospitals here. People are dying due to lack of services period. Get off of your dirty white high horse and push the Bureaucrats and get them building the hospitals NOW! We don't need your money the VA already has the money. Light a fire under their Azz! And don't forget HIRE A VET!

Guess what guys? Literally 95% of you are arguing the same points over and over. Why are you doing it? I don't know. Nobody is listening. Nothing you're saying hasn't been said before a hundred times over. And you're certainly not changing anyone's minds.

And when this Health Care bill passes later this week, nobody is going to care what you think about it. Feel free to move to another developed nation...oh wait they all have this program too. Darn it. Guess you're stuck in America---I mean, Nazi Germany 2.0---that is what you guys think it will be right?

******************************************************************

NOT NO BUT, H-E-L-L NO.

YOU HAVE PROVEN BY YOUR STATEMENTS (in Writing) THIS IS AN INSURANCE SCAM.

WE WANT WHAT YOU HAVE.

Obama on 'Face the Nation' September 20, 2009

Obama: No, the difference is that they're making huge profits on it, Bob. I mean, let's take the Medicare HMO programs that are being run by insurance companies. It's estimated by everybody that they're overcharging by about 14 percent. This amounts to about $177 billion over 10 years. About $17 billion a year, $18 billion a year. That's just going to pad their profits, hasn't been shown to make Medicare recipients any healthier. And in fact because those huge subsidies are going to insurance companies, Medicare recipients are not getting a good deal. Now if we are enforcing what should be the rules around Medicare and making sure the people are getting a bang for the buck, it's not going to be possible for insurance companies to simply pass on those costs to Medicare recipients because ultimately it's Uncle Sam that's paying for those services anyway.

So it is known by President Obama that the Insurance Corporations are to blame. And as an ah, duh, Uncle Sam is all US Taxpayers.

This Insurance Scam (aka Health Care Reform) is all about paybacks to the Insurance Corporations, Medical Device Industry, and Pharmaceutical Industry. As to why President Obama (motive) is not getting rid of the cause (see above).

President Obama's Proposal February 22, 2010.

page 10. Like the drug industry, the health insurance industry stands to gain as more Americans get coverage.

Gets $67 Billion Taxpayer Money.

page 10. The medical device industry also stands to gain from expanding health insurance coverage.

Gets $20 Billion Taxpayer Money.

page 9. Both policies will result in new revenue for the pharmaceutical industry.

Gets $23 Billion Taxpayer Money.

You get the Insurance Corporations OUT of the Medical Profession, the proven since President FDR result:

Decreases cost 80% (last part of video, 1:40) by Doctor David Ores, New York.1:45

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5247963n&tag=contentMain;contentBody

And what we would get by getting the Insurance Corporations out of the Medical Profession for $42 per month:

"We're able to access that health care 24 hours a day when we're in Washington," Graham said, leading us to the Attending Physician's Office, a clinic inside the U.S. Capitol. They don't even have to leave the office.

About half of the members of Congress, including House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, use the Attending Physician benefit. For $42 a month, they can get all the primary care they need - physical therapy, X-rays, minor surgery, specialists and a pharmacy for emergencies - no appointment needed.

They also get VIP hospital treatment from the best doctors at Bethesda Naval Hospital. And they have a reserved spot at the elite Ward 72 at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, where the late Sen. Strom Thurmond spent a lot of time.

Outpatient care is free. Well, free for them. Your tax dollars pick up the cost.

And if it is good enough for the US President, VP, Speaker of the House, Senator Max Baucus, the Late Senator Kennedy, former VP Cheney, etc. they are hypocrites for trying to push something that they "endorse" but will never use.

NOT NO BUT, H-E-L-L NO.

YOU HAVE PROVEN BY YOUR STATEMENTS (in Writing) THIS IS AN INSURANCE SCAM.

WE WANT WHAT YOU HAVE FOR $42 PER MONTH.

Contact President:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/

Contact Congress:

http://www.contactingthecongress.org/

*******************************************************************

"Rep. Bart Gordon of Tennessee, a moderate Democrat who is retiring at the end of the year, announced he would vote in favor of the bill after opposing an earlier version. He did so as Democratic leaders included in their revisions a provision worth an estimated $99 million over two years in higher Medicaid payments to Tennessee hospitals that treat large numbers of uninsured."

The statement above is the reason something is wrong with this health care bill...our "honest" senators are being bought off to sign this mess...and we the tax payers are getting the very short straw on this .... JUst the fact that people are forced to buy this insurance is wrong....thought this was a FREE country...looks like I may have been wrong. The constitution does not give congress the right to force anyone in this country to buy anything...yet that is just what is being done. And am sure that the fine print in this mess is going to be a killer. The insurance companies have to love it....after all...look at all the money they will be sure to make after the cost of this insurance is raised...which it already has been in most cases..the cost of insurance started going up even before the debtes got started good...and why not...the insurance and health care folks are the ones that helped write this mess.

STILL, 500 billion is coming out of Medicare to pay for the plan----hardly ever mentioned at all? It's also been said that the Dems are willing to give up congress for 2-3 terms to get this thing passed. When this plan takes effect 100%, a lot of Americans are going to be saying "I didn't know that". No, I believe the term Obamacare has just sunk right into BO's brain. We gave him the legacy he's looking for.

I have an envelope for sale, you have to buy it to find out what's in it.

Many of these posts show just how misinformed people are about the HCR bill. The CBO did release the numbers for the 2nd decade. It will reduce the deficit by $1.3 trillion during that time!!!

There are 17 provisions that will take effect immediately. Several others will go into effect on 1/11.

Many are crying about the mandate but it was added to the bill by Sen Grassley, R-IA. That's right, it was a GOP idea.

For those who cry the President & Dems are ignoring the economy & unemployment to pass this bill, this bill has plenty to do w/ both! It's not wages that drive US co's overseas, it's health care costs. Wages have been stagnant here for a long time due to annual health care insurance costs. Health care is 1/6th of our GDP.

The GOP praises the CBO when their numbers support any part of their argument but then turn around & claim otherwise when the numbers go against them. They are criticizing the CBO now but had no problem when the CBO stated Medicare Part D would add $400 billion to the deficit, or Bush's 2nd tax cuts would add $350 billion or when Bush's original tax cuts would add $1.4 trillion. The GOP voted for all of these!!! Now they have problems w/ a bill that will decrease the deficit. Unfrigginbelievable!!!

The bill could have, and should have, been a much better bill. However, since the GOP saw a defeat of the bill as the Prez's waterloo, they have spent all their energy to try to defeat the bill rather than make it better. Instead of debating things they thought were wrong in the bill, they lied about things that weren't in the bill!!! There's no coverage for illegals, none for abortion & there certainly aren't any death panels!!!

In the several committees that were drafting bills, the GOP asked for & received certain cuts & amendments to the bill. Immediately afterward, they ran to the cameras & declared they would vote against the bill!

Americans never used to settle for 2nd best but many are now willing to settle for the 37th ranked health care system in the world!!! We pay the most for health care & should demand the best!!!

The GOP keeps pushing tort reform. They claim to stop frivolous lawsuits they need to set caps to awards. It's up to courts to weed out frivolous lawsuits, not Congress. Awards are given to lawsuits that have been determined to have merit & allowed to be ruled on by judges and/or juries. Congress should not attempt to take away Americans' right to seek redress from the courts. Besides, many states have already done this by placing caps & time limits on suits.

I just can't believe that there are still citizens who are buying these lib lies. Can't they see the real underlying agenda? The real issue is not health care but government growth and takeover of private industry. Socialism pure and simple. Why don't they just call it that and get it over with. They lie about the numbers as well as other things.

The deficit for the just the month of Februrary was over 200 billion dollars. A deficit reduction of 138 billion over a ten year period and 70 billion of that comes from student loans is not going to bring the deficit down, it slows down the growth by less then .5% if February 2010 is typical, but my guess is that the deficit spending will increase month over month, but one half of one percent is not even an honest effort.

Vote them all out they have spent us into deep trouble.

I think I'm gonna be sick!

If you're within driving distance of Washington, be on the Capitol steps Saturday at noon for the rally to kill this thing. If you can't get off your butt to get involved for this, then don't complain later. E-mail as many like-minded people as you can to let them know.

Fred, didn't Bachmann, et al just have a kill the bill rally? Attended mostly by lawmakers & their staffs?

BobInFL They don't want you to know. Trust them and Obama. You don't have a mind of your own, so they say, so Trust them.

Actually I heard it would reduce the deficit by $138 billion because they would be able to PREVENT MEDICARE AND MEDICAID FRAUD. Is it just me, am I that stupid by not understanding we need a healthcare bill to prevent crime. Will this bill also prevent jaywalking and spitting on the sidewalk. God I sure hope so because I have twisted my knee trying to avoid all those little collections of snot laced spittle. They are so gross.

Anyone else having trouble opening wwwfoxnews.com?

It opens, then says Explorer can't open..........then shuts it down?

Fred, didn't Bachmann, et al just have a kill the bill rally? Attended mostly by lawmakers & their staffs?

Yeah, the problems with rallies on week days is that those of us who oppose this thing are responsible people who go to work. This time it's the weekend, so I expect a better crowd.

Numbers? Your only going to get the NUMBERS that the Democrats want you to have.
I don't know where people's heads are. First to put a COMMUNIST MUSLIM into the office of the UNITED STATES PRESIDENT. I know the LIBERAL NEWS MEDIA slams FOX NEWS and Hannity and RUSH LIMBAUGH ,but they told us who this guy associated with. WACO'S AND AMERICAN HATERS, Most COMMUNIST THINKERS.
Just remember something, as you get OLDER ,you have to live with everything that is being put out today by the Administration and the Liberal Congress and Senate.
I have been warning people for the last 35 years, about the Democrats being a COMMUNIST PARTY, and I am a Democrat, not a SOCIALIST COMMUNIST.
These people lie more than The CLINTON'S, BUT than again the CLINTON ADMINISTRATION is RUNNING the SHOW.
For two people who hated each other as the Clinton's and the Obamas ,isn't it AAAAAAAMAZING how Obama picked Clinton's people to run his Administration????
I sit here and LAUGH when I think how Dumb the American People are, OPEN YOUR EYES, It's your lives and your Children and Grandchildren's lives.

Well, I've e-mailed my Congressman have you? They are not listening to the people. Come election - they will. Especially from the elderly.

It's the GOP who isn't listening to the people!!! President Obama ran on a HCR platform & won. When the bill is passed, the elderly will realize that despite all the lies & fear tactics, their Medicare will be better!!! Just getting rid of the doughnut hole, that has increased every year since the passage of Medicare Part D, will save many seniors a lot of money!!!

So Fred, we can expect millions of protesters in DC? Can we expect many signs saying keep the govt out of my Medicare?

"The American people are saying, 'Stop' and they're screaming at the top of their lungs," said House GOP Leader John Boehner of Ohio. Citing reports that Obama had told members of the Hispanic caucus that his presidency depends on the bill's passage, he added, "I'm sorry, Mr. President, this isn't about you."

He is right, this isn't about the President. His Presidency has already become a stain on our Nation's history. Passing this bill will make that stain paint the entire page black. I hope we can get through the next 3 years without a total collapse in the economy.

I also found out this morning that a Hispanic Congressman changed his vote after he found out there would be coverage for Illegals. NO NO NO!!!!!! The only money that should be spent on Illegals is the money spent to remove them from the Country and make sure they do not return. Billions are being sucked out of the Economy by Illegals. Free health care, tax free living. They are sending Billions of dollars back to their respective home countries. This needs to stop NOW!!!

I am so dismayed by the scene that is playing out before us. The fact that some of our Legislators would openly support changes to our Country that will have a devastating effect on everyone and act like it is good is beyond reason. Have these people been taken over by Aliens? The loss of common sense and reason is so blatant, they can't be in their right minds.

A vast majority of the country is burnin' mad about this bill, and how the Obama administration is blatantly trying to manipulate the laws of this country and its Constitution, for no other reason than to gain power for a socialist party.

The only word I can think of to describe it is UNAMERICAN!!!

Everyone is saying how peaceful demonstration and writing/emailing your representatives is how you fight back. IT'S NOT WORKING!!!

It's almost as if the people and the government are living in two different countries.

Mark my words, if this administration is allowed to continue BUYING votes, whether it be for healthcare or any other SOCIALIST springboards, you're going to see a revolution.

And it won't be a "sit by the fire singing cumbaya" type revolution.

Well this has become such a farce. I'm still confused from the fact BO and the Dems said there is 500 bil in fraud a year in the system. I'm not as educated in theft as they are BUT it appears they could just fix the fraud and save 1 trillion dollars in (TWO) years, and that would be 5 trillion in 10 years. That would pay for this whole fiasco and pay down the national debt by four trillion in 10 years. That is without fleecing the citizens and business for more taxes. The .9 increase in medicare also has to be matched by business, which is another expense, not to mention the cost of making sure this is done that falls on the co's also. But what the heck it's not like co's need more time to sale, service or attempt to make money to EMPLOY people-----F--k the Gov can pay everyone and just have our Co's do the paperwork for them. More regulation is a good way to create more jobs--- You know it won't be like manufacturing or anything productive for society but we could all work for the Feds. Wouldn't that be nice. I do hope people stop this for the sake of THE USA..

Re: post 1.6, yes!

If you're going to fix the fraud, you have to get to the top.

Take a wild guess who's at the top!

What the Liar and Chief and his 40 thieves do NOT say and is in the bill, that they are going to basically squeeze out EVERY insurance company in this country and FORCE employers who currently provide good health insurance coverage, to DROP this coverage and thus making everyone EXCEPT the thieves and the Muslim Dictator be forced to accept crap, third world coverage that our Kenyan Dictator is used to.

Let's see we are goingto spend 1 trillion dollars to save 100 billion, WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS NUMBER?

Let's do a recount on how much success this Kenyan clown has had in the past..... UHHH NONE!!!!

Let's do a recount on how much success this Government has had in the past with Medicare..... UHHH NONE!!!!

Let's do a recount on how much success this Government has had in the past with Social Security..... UHHH NONE!!!!

Let's do a recount on how much success this Government has had in the past with Postal service..... UHHH NONE!!!!

BUT in all favor to them, they have had a great success in taking over private business, banks, looks like health-care, ADDING sponges to the welfare roles and stealing from the pockets of Americans. I think a DEMOCRATIC government is here to support the people, NOT for the PEOPLE to SUPPORT the government.

Want to save some money NOBAMA? Start by firing all of your WIFE'S USELESS Staff. Can she not wipe her own butt? Why do we need so many on the payroll in Washington? You stated you were going to cut the staff, YET you have created more than 1200 NEW jobs in government. WHO pays for these jobs? SIMPLE those that YOU are supposed to be supporting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go Home and take Nancy with you. You are both low life Communists that need to be in another country, NOT MINE!!!!!

You are using STRONG ARM MOBSTER tactics to get Congressmen that were ELECTED to REPRESENT the PEOPLE and carry out THEIR wishes, NOT to be concerned ABOUT YOUR LEGACY AS PRESIDENT. Since we all know that yours will be concerned as a MAJOR blemish on that OFFICE. GET OUT and take your THUGS and THIEVES with you. Might have been okay in the crime capital of CHICAGO, but not for the rest of this country. GET OUT!!!!!!!!!

backroom payouts, exeptions, and bonus making deals, is all this is. buying a vote for this scam reform.

They've been using our tax dollars that go to healthcare as a slush fund, but the funds can't keep up with them as they dig into it harder, and harder. Our tax dollars go to enough as it is, as much as we pay off the top, plus gas, groocerys, and any other product we buy. I think we need govenment reform, problem is, gov has been doing its own reforming for years and years now. Our troops are doing a great job over seas, i say keep them at it. Somehow i think this being almost a "free deed" on our behalf is a little nuts. Iraq has been rolling in the oil....grant it, they have lots of rebuilding to do yet, but i think we should be seeing more. Afghanistan on the other hand, is so p!iss poor broke, they cant even keep people from wanting to oust the gov there, and go back to drug selling. I think if Nobama the muslim clown ran for president there, he would be able to obe the god he wants to be....wonder if its possible to kick his @ss out of airforce1 as its flying over Afghanistan, parachute on of course, and let him and his muslim brothers reform all they want.

CBO: Obamacare Would Cost Over $2 Trillion The CBO’s most recent analysis is out, and it’s not likely to convince wavering House Democrats to jump to the Obamacare side of the fence. . According to the CBO, this version would siphon even more money out of Medicare, make even further cuts to Medicare Advantage..., and levy even higher taxes and fines on the American people.

Gramps

When the bill is passed, the elderly will realize that despite all the lies & fear tactics, their Medicare will be better!!!

Medicare has already improved in Washington State. OOOPs my bad... More than a hundred Walgreens drugstores will stop accepting new Medicaid patients next month because the company claims it is losing money. So, getting rid of the doughnut hole really won't matter if this trend continues. Have fun trying to find doctors and drug stores that except Medicare in the years to come.

Also, who are the members of the CBO and who controls them? Want to VENTURE a guess? NOBAMA of course and he has probably sent his thugs to their homes to threaten them and their families to get a favorable response.

WAKE UP AMERICA. This man is a terrorist cell and nothing more. He is no better than his Heroes of Ayers, Wright, Bin Laden and the other radical teachers that he sought out, just like the Attempted Christmas Day Bomber.

For months now all we've heard about the plan is:

1. "Extends" coverage - code word for mandatory purchase of insurance

2. Covers "pre-existing" conditions - still can't say if insurance wouldn't dance around it as always

3. Reduces deficit - which we know is an accounting sleight of hand

My question to every one is.. if that's what this bill does, why does it run thousands upon thousands of pages? What ELSE is in it that hasn't seen the light of day?

So if we add 30 million to the healthcare welfare rolls,who is paying for those people? If they don't have money to buy insurance now, where will they get the money to pay the premiums?

How is the administration able to predict how much they are going to have the subsidize these people?

Of the 30 million uninsured that now have no coverage, how many are illegal immigrants that don't deserve our healthcare?

The changes also included another of Obama's top priorities: Federally guaranteed student loans would now be made only by the government, ending a role for banks and other for-profit lenders who charge fees. The savings, an estimated $60 billion over a decade, would increase Pell grants for needy college students as well as support for programs such as aid to historically black colleges, a priority of the Congressional Black Caucus.

So how does increasing entitlements for colleges and student loans interact with healthcare?

Fuuny, I don't recall any questions about cost when the US invaded Iraq based on lies from George Bush. This is a common sense solution to a problem which has been left unaddressed for way too long. When this passes, and people become familiar with the results, Obama will become unbeatable and the Republicans will remain in the political wilderness where they belong.

War and death will be trumped by health and hope. FDR had a social conscience and so does Barack. We are lucky to finally have a leader who considers health a priority. No matter how much money those who profit from healthcare pour into the politicians they have in their pockets, this is going to pass...and it's long past time. Healthy people save the country money. They are productive. Go Barack!

The CBO report is an ESTIMATE, nothing more. Bottom line, spend to save????? That's the most creative math I've ever seen............

So Fred, we can expect millions of protesters in DC? Can we expect many signs saying keep the govt out of my Medicare?

When people have been paying into an entitlement program all their lives like seniors have been paying into Medicare, they deserve what was promised them. Of course, we know what the government did with the money they took from the people for Medicare, don't we? They spent it elsewhere, and now it's bankrupt. This will be the same thing only on a much larger scale. They will take our money in the name of healthcare and humanity and blow it somewhere else. The Republicans will blow it on wars. The democrats will blow it on getting mice drunk and high on coke. Have you looked at the bill? Almost every cost saving feature they have in there, they could enact with a swipe of the pen without having to spend a trillion dollars.

Why are these people being so stupid?? They are going to loose their seat in Government for a ONE TERM PRESIDENT! They refuse to listen to the American people, We are sick of the Government trying to ram things down our throat. If they do pass this thing is there a way we can file a Class Action Suit against the Government and Name everyone in the Suit that Voted YES or SIGNED the Bill????? If so I am in on that LOL!

I just E-Mailed the Blue Dog Democrats and ask them to Vote and reminded them they are about to risk loosing their JOBS for a ONE TERM PRESIDENT. I listed their E-Mail address below ( I don't know how to do links, I hope it works) so maybe if We all send them a note today they will think about it a little more.

BlueDog@mail.house.gov

BO won 53% of the popular vote which is not a mandate for anything. The electoral college was, is, and will be a joke. Why should people who can't get off their duff to vote decide who wins or loses over those that do vote???? Another BIG flaw in the system. Elections on the state and local levels are decided by those who vote----period. Not the feds. They take something simple and make it a couple thousand pages. I'll say this again and again---500 BILLION IS COMING OUT OF MEDICARE TO PAY FOR THIS BILL!!!! One screwed up entitlement funding another. So, instead of dealing with SS and Medicare, we can add healthcare reform to the mix. Gramps, what are you going to do when your hospital or doctor refuses to accept Medicare?

nlgatewood24

The bill is estimated to reduce federal deficit by more than $130 billion over its first 10 years — and $1.2 trillion in the second decade

you didn't read far enough, or probably read at all

With all due respect, exactly what does that do for those who currently have health insurance in controlling their costs? Even leaving aside the fact I don't buy into the reduction in the deficit, the healthcare bill as written does precisely nothing to control the spiralling costs. In fact, after adding another 30M to the rolls of the insureds through forced purchasing, wouldn't healthcare spiral even further seeing as the health insurance industry barely makes a profit currently. Adding tons of people who they currently have succeeded in not insuring (those with pre-exisiting conditions for example, and no I am not for this despicable habit) along with people who in the past have simply sucked it up when feeling under the weather will only add more to the cost not less.

So I ask you the question, precisely how will the American voters benefit from this program? I am all for healthcare for all, but this bill or anything proposed by the GOP does nothing for us. In fact I see more intelligent suggestions posted daily in media such as newsvine.

And for those who are grasping at the promise of assistance for those earning under $88K, I suspect they'll be astonished when it comes to light it will most likely be a game of smoke and mirrors and that assistance will end up being a tax credit. Most of those who will need the most assisance already are so lowly taxed (not unjustly either) that they simply won't owe enough in taxes to ever be able to take advantage of any promised carrot of a tax credit. If you already pay $0 there isn't much use in a credit.

Why don't they just put the bill on the internet, let the American people read it (it is on the internet now), and then put it on the ballot in November. Let us decide if we want this piece of crap legislation or not. But, then that would actually be representing your constituents. This bill is headed for the Supreme Court and nullifcation by the states. Madeoff would be proud of this legislation because it is based on his schemes where he stole millions from investors...this is the same...they will steal millions from the American tax payers.

It's not about Health Care Ed. It's about the largest POWER GRAB in the history of the United States. It's about trampling Constitutional rules to ram through this horse@!$%# legislation at any and all costs. It's about massive government takeover of our health care delivery by the same morons who can't run the U.S. Postal Service in the black. It's about arm-twisting, bribes, perfume and salesmanship.

At the end of the day, one fact remains. This Bill is a turd and dictator Obama has totally usurped his office in pushing this financial disaster on our country.

Simple math folks; how can we have savings over the long haul when costs keep rising? My mother told me, who was a very frugal women, that there isn't no such thing as a free lunch. Someone has to pay for it. We sure as hell are being sold a bill of goods that is going to spiral out of control and by that time it will be too late. Folks always remember that nothing, absolutely nothing is for free.

God help us.

THE COLLAPSE OF AMERICA AS WE ONCE KNEW IT CONTINUES, SOCIALISM PROCEEDS!!!!!!!!!

This health care bill has little to do with concern for your health. This is the first step in a massive redistribution of wealth. The old Robin Hood mentality of the Progressive movement based on the Saul Alinsky dictate. And more importantly is the total control that will come if this bill passes.

Buried in the massive Senate amendment authored by Harry Reid himself is the antidemocratic POISON PILL!!!!!!

Beginning on page 1,000 of the measure, Section 3403 reads in part:

"it shall not be in order in the Senate or the House of Representatives to consider any bill, resolution, amendment or conference report that would repeal or otherwise change this subsection."

This means that once Obama signs this bill into law no present OR future House or Senate will be able to change a single word of Section 3403.

What is section 3403 you may ask?

This is the most important section of the whole health care legislation. This concerns the regulatory power of the Independent Medical Advisory Board (IMAB). This board will have open-ended regulatory power and arbiter of the cost, quality and quantity of health care made available to the American people. Of course this will be based on the access, need and more importantly the available funds. This Board will be comprised of UNELECTED federal bureaucrats and will be untouchable for all time.

For over 200 years changes in standing Senate rules have required a 2/3 majority rather than the 60 Reids proposal received in the dead of night.

Call it the IMAB or death panels, it is still another gross manipulation of our Constitution. The Louisiana Purchase, Nebraska Cornhusker deal and Vermont Bribe were just diversions to allow passage of control to a massive bureaucracy.

All I have to say to this mess is "Mr President and Speaker Pelosi, please defer this vote, listen to the voices of the American people and stop marching to be beat of your party"...Whether you agree/disagree with those opposed to this bill, you must at the very least acknowledge that our voices need to be heard and our views entertained and not dismissed....There are too many unknowns with this legislation...We need to review this bill further to make a more rational decision....I'm not saying no to Healthcare reform, but am saying we are rushing into this....This vane attempt to push legislation is not democratic, it's repressive and only using the majority to get what they want...Do not dismiss the voices of concerned Americans, especially since support of this bill is split down the middle in this country...Please, stop this insanity...

I would remind people that the CBO is analogous to a Grand Jury in that they can only come to specific conclusions based on the input they’ve received. In this case the input given to the CBO contains all kinds of fantasy revenue projections as well as “recovery” of half a trillion dollars of as of yet unidentified fraudulent moneys from Medicare, not to mention fantastic revenue projections from a multitude of new/higher taxes.

The CBO cannot question the validity of these projections, they simply must crunch numbers and arrive at their conclusion.

To put it simply, this administration submitted contrived/manipulated numbers to achieve the desired result.

Implementation of this healthcare (with all kinds of other stuff) abomination will signal the end of this country as we knew it.

"These guys REALLY think we are that stupid?" They're counting on it! They're counting on the fact that historically the constituency, in general, has let them do whatever they've wanted to do. We're busy with our lives and politics is their business so they concentrate on getting their way while we work for our money, that they then take for their projects. It's time we stayed focused, made ourselves heard and scream 'HE.. NO" at the top of our lungs. This is just wrong!

Dude, there's a difference between Medicaid & Medicare!!! Most seniors are on Medicare. Part D was a handout to the private insurance co's that run that Medicare program. After paying a co-pay for medications, up to the first $2,500.00, the doughnut hole takes place for the next $3,000.00. Seniors have to pay full price for their medications at that point. Many never make it out of the hole to get a smaller co-pay for the rest of their medications.

Medicare Part D premiums have gone up every year as well, (seniors still have to pay their Medicare premiums as well. More & more medications are placed in a higher co-pay or out of the formulary altogether every year as well.

Regular Medicare co-pays are under $15.00 for a doctor visit. W/ Part D, the co-pays jump to $15 for a primary care doctor & $30.00 for specialists. There's a huge difference between Part D & supplemetal coverage. There are some benefits that one can get w/ Part D but thse benefits usually don't outweigh the added costs to the insured.

Medicaid is a totally different program. Usually for welfare recipients. It's run by the states & partially funded by the federal govt. The states control who's qualified & what they pay to doctors & pharmacies. They are usually very deliquent in payments. Especially during tough times. This is a major reason some reject Medicaid patients. However, if someone needs medical treatment at a hospital & are uninsured, the hospital has social workers to get the patient on Medicaid immediately. Some payment, even if late & less, is better than no payment at all.

If I was to bribe a public offical to see things my way I would go to jail for that but it is ok for our elected congress to be bribed and our President of change can bribe congress so they can get the votes. How is this fare to the American People.... It is time to start over with ALL elected officials.

If the government's pending insurance plan is so wonderful, then why would folks be fined or jailed for not having some form of insurance according to this new legislation--a great product sells itself, right?

Looks like a bunch of clowns in that picture, without the facepaint!

If it's so wonderful why are NONE of the politicians on it???

Those numbers do not mean anything just as the CBO numbers mean nothing.

Beginning in 2014, most Americans would be required for the first time to purchase insurance or face penalties if they refused.

This is Obama's bill he has said it the media reports that-

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35928063/ns/politics-health_care_reform/

WASHINGTON - Slowly but steadily, support is building behind President Barack Obama's health care legislation in the House,

So who will Police for violations ? who will enforce these penalties? How and where would one defend themselves? in Court'? State or Federal? Court is is very expensive-

New Casey Attorney: ‘$275K Isn’t Much For Death Penalty Defense’

Friday, March 19, 2010 7:45:35 AM

And so is INCARCERATION

Cost of Imprisonment
It costs $55.09 on average per day or $20,108 per year to keep an inmate in prison (FY0708)
Most of the daily cost to incarcerate an inmate in a major prison is spent on security and medical services. The remaining 20% or so is spent on feeding, clothing and educating inmates, and some administrative issues.

Who will pay for that? Will it be a Federal crime? Will more Federal prison have to be built? Where? what will the max sentence or fine be? Will it be a misdemeanor or a felony?

How can any one who claims to be a free American be for taking a fellow Americans freedoms and rights away?? for not buying a product offered by a company the Federal Government has deemed as evil?????

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20000166-503544.html

On Monday, Mr. Obama dropped his cool town-hall reserve, returning to the more aggressive style that galvanized his campaign in a speech at Arcadia University in Glenside, Pa. Just as President Reagan painted the Soviet Union as the "Evil Empire," Mr. Obama focused his narrative on a villain undermining American values.Mr. Obama painted the insurance industry as an evil empire, an unconscionable villain

OMG! The point is . Face it! Any one that is for this legislation has been duped and it is plain to see who has done the duping. The Victims/ Citizen goes to jail whilst the perpetrator/ Evil insurance company Gets RICHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMO: It is beyond insane to even consider this.

this sucks screw the american people no matter what the cost of the bribes. we all need to vote against anyone who votes for this forced health insurance bill.

Don't forget, you Democrats who are faltering and giving in. When November gets here, you will be remembered.

Screw the American people? You mean the 32 million who will finally get insured? The small businesses who will save money from lower health care costs? The many Americans who won't be denied coverage due to pre-existing conditions or those who won't lose coverage due to becoming sick? Or those Americans who won't see their premiums go up year after year?

Or are you referring to Americans that are happy about our health care being ranked 37th in the world? Even those who have to buy insurance won't be getting screwed. This will protect taxpayers from getting stuck w/ their bills because they gambled on not getting sick or injured. Besides, you can thank Sen Grassley, R-IA, for the mandate.

did ANYONE see they added EDUCCATIONAL LOANS to this bill, to be ONLY PROVIDED by the GOV now no private loans for education??

I wonder if they are counting all those "INTEREST" payments on the loans as money for HEALTHCARE....

I have little doubt the required number of votes will eventually be there as those in congress have demonstrated time and time again that their votes can indeed be bought.

Remember, when congressmen are presented with legislation, deciding whether to support or reject it, the first thought that goes through their heads is “what’s in it for me?”

This may be the reason the approval rating for congress hovers around 17%.

Yay, we're #37!!! What happened to American pride? When nothing besides the best was good enough?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVgOl3cETb4

Fact: The United States Executive Office, Senate and Congress WILL BE EXEMPT from this bill! They have their own health care and "voted in" Social Security System.

Facts: New England Journal of Medicine concurs with what I believe will happen, that is, many doctors will leave the profession- after all, who wants to go through the exhaustive, long term, intensive schooling and residencies to only work for the government? Some will call them greedy- ONLY THOSE ignorants, who have not tried to accomplish the heavy tasks required to become an MD.

Fact: 30 +/- million added to the health care roles with less doctors= health care rationing and likely poorer care (and deaths) period.

Facts: "If it looks like a duck, talks like a duck and walks like a duck" (even if the duck is silver tongued) it is probably a duck. Socialists are "changing" this country to mirror their ideals.

Facts: Former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatchter stated (about Socialism) "the problem with Socialism is that governments eventually run out of other people's money." You cannot continue to spend "other peoples" ie: taxpayers money recklessly without eventually running out- then comes anarchy and rebellion which, incidentally, is what birthed this country in the first place-that along with the wishes to worship God as the founding fathers saw fit.

Facts: The Democrats (Republicans as well) are guilty of using procedures that should have NEVER BEEN ALLOWED to pass bills- particularly a bill of this size, complexity, and uncertaintly; to pass this bill in economic times such as these, stating that it will reduce the deficit is absurd and a lie. To expect all to be "fined" should they elect to NOT buy into the system is unconsionsable. This is not car insurance provided to protect us and others from possible harm due to driving a ton or so machine around, this pertains to our bodies.

Fact: Congressmen and women have been heavily "bought out" with our money to achieve this giganticus of a bill.

Fact: We wont see much of the effects (bad or good) from the bill for the first 3 years so or, BUT we begin paying for it right away!

Fact: Americans have been "asleep at the helm" allowing government to "take the initiatives" they will and want from us -willy nilly, while we entertain ourselves with mind robbing idiocrities such as "American Idol," soap operas, game shows- the stuff that leftist Hollywood vomits out. We have eaten out, made love, raised children (to do the same) texted, chatted, twittered until we have become almost deaf & dumb. Thank God when things become so very obviously wrong (are manifestly wrong) we finally "wake up" like drunken men & women and say "what happened?" Please, please- America do not let this happen again! Stay awake! Teach your children as they should be taught! Keep abreast of what DC does and demand that they represent you!!! DO NOT FORGET what has happened today- in November 2010! This is indeed historical- the Democrats boast of this, why not make it historical that it become their "Waterloo." Why not make this historical that Americans finally wake up, take back their rights, initiatives and begin loving true American History, begin teaching each other about the political realm so that-we can see ourselves governed as we want, not what the government says we must have or be fined, worse yet, put in jail.

I voted for Obama, but take exception to the term "CHARACTER", when applied to yeah votes for this bill. A true measure of CHARACTER is the strength it takes to exercise due diligence, even in the face of adversity, to ensure that the changes being proposed are correct and the process being followed is checked, double-checked, triple-checked to ensure it goes smoothly...This rush to pass reform is in my opinion, an example of Vanity on the part of the Democrats...I'm not opposed to changing the Healthcare system as I, like many Americans, struggle with the rising cost of Healthcare insurance...The Democrats are marching to the beat of their own drum and are not listening to the voices of Americans who do not agree with them...

To Everyone who wants to stop this Bill:

Our local radio hosts had an idea to send just 10 dollars to anyone running against a democrat that is going to vote for this bill.

http://www.mynorthwest.com/?nid=194&sid=299407

Money talks, send them a message.

Our only hope : Vote the Socialist Democrats out in November !!!!

Screw the American people? You mean the 32 million who will finally get insured? The small businesses who will save money from lower health care costs?

Gramps, all those 32 million (gee how that number keeps changing day to day) will not all be covered (the govt. said that, not me.) AND the cost to small business will cause many to drop the coverage they have now. Minimum govt. reported increase in premiums to business is 30%. In my State, it is over 100%. I,and everyone else in the company I work for, stand to lose coverage Aug. 1st if this bill passes. Don't believe the hype. There will still be millions of Americans without coverage. Now it will be working Americans who will not have coverage. Thanks for supporting those who want to destroy the American economy and deny health care to as many as possible.

Gramps-1235375

Or those Americans who won't see their premiums go up year after year?

If you're right, please explain this regarding the Maserati Health Plans,,,

Over time, however, the tax would hit more and more plans, because the tax's threshold is set to increase at the rate of inflation while premiums are expected to continue to grow much more quickly than that

By your own admission premiums are supposed to go down but this statement from an article running concurrently on MSNBC with this one says it won't.

Maybe you don't know what you're talking about.

Obama is a delusional narcissist enigma wrapped in an arrogant cloak of blatant deceit and hypocrisy. Greg Neubeck

Yes. It is about the character of our country.

Are we gonna reward people for depending on the federal government for their well being or are we going to be the country we have always been - that rewards people that work for what they want and are accountable and responsible.

NO MORE Government handouts. Let the fittest survive.

Just a reminder to go to the Capitol Saturday at noon if there's any way you can to voice your opinion. The speakers will include some people you know, and some you may not like Obama's cousin who will speak against the bill:

http://www.americangrassrootscoalition.org/

Barack Obama is the biggest liar ever to hold the office of the president. He lies almost every time he opens his mouth, he is guilty of treason as he subverts the law of the land, he is guilty of dereliction of duty for failing to uphold the constitution and the will of the people, he is a thief, stealing by using our taxes for his personal agenda, bribing his co-conspirators. Lock them up!

"Obama: Health care debate about 'character'"

If this were true would they use the 'Slaughter Rule'? Would they use reconciliation? Some other parlimentary 'maneuver'. Or would they just use the standard legislative methods that children learn about in school?

Who is this petulant, stranger-to-the-truth politician who judges himself to be the arbiter of the " character of the country" ???

What an absolute punk.

-

Watch with blinded eyes as our Freedom is being eroded by this totalitarian regime.

Next will be a vote in congress to dissolve term limits and make Barack Hussein Obama our permanent supreme leader.

There will not only be mandated healthcare but our entire lives will be mandated. Internet access will be monitored, taxed and limited to sites granted by the state, TV and radio programming will also be monitored, taxed and limited.

This is not about healthcare, this is about total power and control over every aspect of your life.

If this so-called healthcare bill passes, this will be the beginning of the end for the United States of America as we now know it. "Change is coming"

Do not be fooled by one mans charisma. Awaken now or forever lose everything that is free and true.

Independent minds will conquer party lines. United we stand, divided we fall.

With congress and the President obviously ignoring the wishes of the majority of the people we need someone to have some balls and get the process going on putting this to a popular vote on the november ballot. Why is it that everyone seems to be blind to the bigger picture that this isn't "Our" Country anymore and hasn't been for awhile. Sure insurance companies need to be put in check but a few simple sentences making it against federal law to deny coverage b/c of preexisting conditions..and other main points would suffice as a bill..no friggin need for a book and a trillion dollars worth of pork/earmarks/ special robbery projects.

you gotta love how he bribed the congresspeople then turns around and bribes senior citizens with a $250 "gift". So for a one-time gift of $250 the President wants us to support a bill that cuts our Medicare coverage and makes "end of life" counseling mandatory. Not such a good payoff. I think Louisiana got a better deal.

Gramps

Yes, it is true that Medicare and Medicaid are different entitlement programs. It is also true that EVERY Federal entitlement program is in dire straights, not to mention most of the State entitlements are hurting as well, and will probably fail within the next 10 years. The latest Jobs Bill delayed the 21% reduction in Medicare payments to doctors for their services due to additional funding thrown at the broken entitlement. The Jobs Bill money was simply tacked onto the Federal Deficit (so much for pay/go efforts). Things are going to get much worse regarding our economy so there will be no chance for current entitlements to survive. Don't believe me? Then time will tell.

The difference between those that support the Medical Reform Bill from those that don't is simple. Those that support it believe Medical Insurance should be a Right and those that don't support it believe it should be a service earned by working for it like EVERY other insurance known to man is acquired currently. What those that feel it is a RIGHT don't understand is that those RIGHTS given by our Government can be taken away by our Government as well. I prefer to make that decision for my family rather than having our Federal Government making it for me. With that being said, those that don't want this bill do want to see Medical Insurance Reform. We just want to see common sense issues addressed first so we can get the biggest bang for the buck without a 2400+ page Bill that is loaded with new taxes, a total student loan industry take over (not sure why this is even in the Medical Reform Bill), and preferential treatment (bribes) to gain votes. So when Obama claims that those that do not want this bill to pass simply want the status quo with no change is simply ignorant of what the people really want. We want change, just not his change.

If this was a good bill then you wouldn't have to LOAD it with incentives to BUY VOTES IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!

Enough trying to do a rush vote BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT WAS A POORLY PLANNED BILL!!

I don't want to pay for your mistakes and because you had to buy people off to get your agenda pushed through this is not why I voted for you!!!

What I don't get with the peeps who are against this is that NONE has come up with a better solution! NONE from the flip-floppers of the party of NO.

And frankly WHY haven't y'all screamed when DUH-bya squandered the surplas Clinton left him, and especially when he tanked our deficit. Y'all act like this is all new, when in reality our grandchildren's childrens future was already set in stone then!!

When do you think we should fix this problem??? When it's too late, and we are at the mercy of our foreign creditors?? All whine bags, with no solutions. Yes, it may not be best, because I prefer one payer/universal. But hey, this is the lesser of 2 evils. Y'all think you are invincible when insurance cost more than you make?? Yeah, y'all be asking for handouts then. :P

Obama says Health Care reform is about the character of our country. For once I agree with him.

BUT the debate is about the current bill being not about reform - its big, sloppy, wasteful govenrment. Most importantly is the way in which Obama and his follow leaders on the hill went about it. Their approach says a lot about their character and qualities. It is all being done in the back room, cutting special deals, buying votes of special interests. Its been done with the worst of Washington character.

So yes Mr President, its about charater and you checked yours at the door...

DUDE-875416

You seem to be forgetting that the entitlement would not be in nearly as bad a shape as it is now if Part D hadn't been passed without increasing the withholding. You can thank the same Repubs that are currently screaming about wasteful spending for that one.

The CBO does not do ANY projections beyond 10 years, as they are utterly meaningless. There are too many variables, not the least of which is the governments never ending drive to spend more, more, more.

Of the $supposed 138 Billion in deficit reduction that goes with this bill it is buried in there but almost half ($70 Billion) is a result of the government takeover of the student loan business in it's entirety. Even that is a contrived number based on hypothetical reductions in defaults. Another $53 Billion is supposed to belong to Social Security, but I'm not sure just how that comes into the picture.

Let's not forget a couple of additional salient facts. First, this reduction in the deficit is an estimated reduction in the more than $9,000,000,000,000.00 (that's trillion) in additional deficits that it is presently estimated that Obama's various programs will add to our exploding national debt over the same period of time.

Beyond all the numbers, claims, and counter claims there remains one unassailable fact. While the Democrats had a filibuster majority in BOTH houses of Congress as well as a Democrat in the oval office they were unable to pass any version of this bill after almost 14 months into Obama's first term!! Now as they close in on finally having put together close to 3,000 pages of who knows what they have to resort to legislative trickery and device to sneak it through like a thief in the night. All this despite a growing majority of Americans who DO NOT WANT THIS BILL even though they would like some breathing room on their medical costs. Remember, there is almost nothing in this bill that will reduce costs for those who currently have insurance. In fact the CBO estimates that it will increase somewhere between 10-20% as a direct result of this legislation. What taxpayers WILL get from this is higher premiums; almost $500 Billion in tax INCREASES to go along with it, and cuts to the existing Medicare programs to the tune of $535 Billion. This does take into account the potential for a European model where heath care is heavily rationed, outcomes for some of the most serious illnesses are much worse, and just seeing a doctor is problematic.

What exactly makes anyone think that this bloated, hyper-expensive new entitlement aimed at less than 10% of the American citizens is actually going to be good for America's competitiveness in the new century? The taxpayers will shortly be paying for the health insurance of millions of Union members as industry after industry chooses to pay a small fine instead of the premiums for "Cadillac Plans", and whereas before that was covered by the purchasers of those goods and services directly we will now pay for them whether or not we ever buy the product or service at all.

Why do we strive to be so much like everyone else when history has shown us pretty clearly that it is our differences that set us apart and have been the foundation upon which we have built the freest most powerful nation in the history of mankind? We certainly didn't get that way by being all yoked to the same plow.

How can they predict what will happen 20 years from now? Who knows? Maybe they'll invent vaccine that for $20 would prevent cancer, or there might be another global epidemic like AIDS.

Costs are hard to predict in such a complex system as it is. Beyond certain time frame any prediction's probability to be correct goes bellow any meaningful value. What good is prediction that's only 50% chance of being correct? That's like flipping a coin.

People should stop being so stubborn and resisting change. This bill has some pretty decent provisions. Its not a leftist bill (no single payer, no public option) why not give it a chance?

As things are going at the moment and in near future, there isn't much that can go worst. If parts of this bill do not work as good as intended (or at all) they can be changed later.

But if nothing is done, things will stay the same for at least a couple of decades and it will most likely bankrupt the country.

We just had a financial meltdown because of adjustable loans that started at 2.5% for 2 years and then more than almost tripled to 6%

Now Obama is using the toxic loan tricks to get his piece of crap approved. Obama say it will only cost a trillion dollars over 10 years but we only get 5 years of coverage. Basically we get a teaser rate additionally he counts some social security money twice. Obama wants to now cut 550 billion dollars out of Medicare. Obama hides 300 billion in the the regular budget. Businesses have to pa an addition 500 billion in new taxes. Families making over $200k per have to pay even more taxes on top of the additional taxes that will take affect 2011.

When you add it all up this crap care will cost 3 trillion plus. Not to mention the additional deaths due to delays in care for all 330,000,000 Americans. That's what kills me the delays are going to cause 1.5 to 2 million deaths per year.

What does this say about the Character of the Progressive Socialist like Obama and even most of the Blue Dog Dems? It say Obama is a lying scumbag that will say and do anything to get his way. Lie, Cheat, Bribe, Steal, Strong Arm.

Mr President you Lie

The only question is does Obama KNOW that his plans and policies are going to cause a lot of damage to America? Is he blind to the faxes or is it intentional

Obummer: "So, Congressional hold-outs, what can I do to convince you?"

Hold-outs: "Go pound sand Mr. Organizer, and focus on the economy...you retard"

cmac-1214259

It's not a one-time gift. It's an attempt to close a donut-hole that the Repubs left for seniors in Part D.

John---The CBO said that---it was their report that the GOP loved yesterday--- ...---The cons are offering nothing and they have not to date!---Lied , distorted, and blustered about everything the Americans want--Sure there are some who want 'perfect' but if over 18 they might realize that you do not get way 100% of the time..Course teenagers or those with arrested development never get it!

roscoe-841582

"Hold-outs: "Go pound sand Mr. Organizer, and focus on the economy...you retard"

Is that what Stupak said? Funny, I didn't hear it that way.

p.s. "Retard" is not the preferred nomenclature, you moron. Try mentally challenged.

Ventsy

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: All these people that can foresee the effects of this and other bills years into the future must be making a mint in the stock market. Instead of parroting Fox News pundits regarding healthcare reform here on NV, they should be running a hedge fund.

"The only question left is this: Are we going to let the special interests win once again, or are we going to make this vote a victory for the American people?" he said.

Isn't either way going to be one and the same. If this is voted in, our costs still are increased, if this is not voted in, the costs are increased. The special interests here ARE the insurance companies.

The lesser of 2 evils is not a choice I personally want. How about we leave well enough alone. When no one is able to pay, the price will come down. Instead some would like to keep putting their hands into other people's pockets.

For most the "insurance cost more than you make" already is the problem, now they want more, want to put limits on it, give penalties to married people and penalize those who either are not fortunate enough to work for a company that offers health insurance or just do not make enough money to pay for it and still afford to live.

For many I am sure they will agree that it seems silly that our government will spend so much time and money on "their" plan to MAKE people buy healthcare, instead of working on helping the jobs situation. If more people have work, with better pay, they can perhaps afford to go along with purchasing healthcare coverage. If you are making minimum wage or even up to double that, healthcare coverage is not going to be high on your list of priorities. Putting food on the table and a roof over your head is #1, along with gas in the car so you can get to work. These people in washington need to get real. Do they think we all make what they do, and get our medical on the same plan they do? Im sure they don't, but certainly they are missing something very important along the way.

Gramps,

Please stop reciting the same flawed ultra-liberal talking points. Here are a few points of fact - not propaganda - for you to think about.

Let's start with Emergency care - since all you supporters of this fiasco point to improper use of emergency medicine by uninsured patients as a huge cost problem passed along to other consumers. Fully 83% of patients utilizing Emergency Rooms have insurance. Of the remaining 17%, more than 60% of those people are in the 21-35 year old age group. The lowest cost per patient group due to a lack of disease state factors. Beyond that, "some" percentage of the remaining group are either people who COULD have insurance but choose NOT to - or people who are not eligible (such as illegal aliens).

But let's look at those who do have insurance. Like Medicare. Medicare reimbursement rates do not cover the cost of procedures. So, hospitals, medical providers, etc, pass those "excess" costs along to the rest of us in the form of higher prices. In other words, Medicare (NOT just Medicaid) ALREADY pays too little so we pay the balance. But you're also cutting Medicare.

You see, the problem is that nowhere does this bill actually cut costs. Do you know what it does? It raises taxes. Period. That's all it does. It does not do a single, solitary, darned thing to cut costs.

Now, let's also talk about another lie you made. That's about the quality of health care. Your position is that becasue we spend more per patient or because we have more people afflicted by percentage of certain disease states, our medical system is worse.

Utter nonsense only possible suggested by complete imbeciles.

You leave out the single most important factor without exception that drives individual health.

Individual lifestyle. Not medical insurance. Things like exercise, obesity, other co-morbidity factors associated with heart disease, diabetes, etc. In your utter liberal ignorance, you ignore this - as well as the FACT that the US leads all nations across the board in survival rates for serious illnesses. ALL nations.

I am so sick and tired of idiots like Gramps alleging that anyone opposing this legislation is "evil" or is "misrepresenting" the contents of the bill. I am so disgusted with their blind hypocrisy in ignoring facts and reality, and of them screaming "obstructionist" when anyone brings up legitimate, real issues. Instead, lemmings like these socially corrupt sheep just make up their own information, ignore facts, and continue to spew their diatribe.

Gramps, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Ha Ha...look at all the whining conservatives on here, collapsing the posts of those they disgree with.

It just gets more entertaining each day as the HCR vote approaches. Conservatives saying increasingly foul things and edging closer to realization that they have FAILED to get Obam to fail. Can't wait til this passes. The sour grapes rhetoric is gonna be great.

No Waterloo for you, GOP!

Pass the popcorn!

Seniors who experience a gap in coverage in the medicare prescription drug program would receive a $250 rebate this year.

YEAH. Hows that work for you when most of these old folks take prescriptions that cost HUNDREDS of $$ per month.

Like we should believe the CBO anyway. How convenient that the number came in under a trillion. IT'S ALL BULL.

I love it. The conservative malcontents were screaminmg about 'lets see what CBO says' as their own measuring stick on stimulus and other measures, and now they their own measuring stick is BS.

Seems like the CBO is only a fair weather friend of Republicans.

JM, Tampa, FL

And frankly WHY haven't y'all screamed when DUH-bya squandered the surplas Clinton left him, and especially when he tanked our deficit.

Here's the truth about your "Blue Dress" boy's "surplus",,,,

http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16

Close the donut hole by stealing $550 billion from Medicare. You got love the reasoning of the Progressive Socialist mind.

The Medicare part D plan covers $3000 worth of drugs the next $3000 you pay and then back to full coverage. Even if you need $6000 a year in drugs you're covered at 50% to full coverage.

By the way, the Bush Medicare part D plan is the only entitlement in the history of entitlements to have its budget forecast be accurate. The only one.

Mr. President you lie

The updated title of the Article:

End in sight, Dems lobby health bill waverers

BEND OVER, YOUR END IS IN SIGHT.

ANAL RAPE AS THEY RAM THIS UP YOUR ARSE.

What was said:

President Obama, Face the Nation, September 20, 2009

Obama: No, the difference is that they're making huge profits on it, Bob. I mean, let's take the Medicare HMO programs that are being run by insurance companies. It's estimated by everybody that they're overcharging by about 14 percent. This amounts to about $177 billion over 10 years. About $17 billion a year, $18 billion a year. That's just going to pad their profits, hasn't been shown to make Medicare recipients any healthier. And in fact because those huge subsidies are going to insurance companies, Medicare recipients are not getting a good deal. Now if we are enforcing what should be the rules around Medicare and making sure the people are getting a bang for the buck, it's not going to be possible for insurance companies to simply pass on those costs to Medicare recipients because ultimately it's Uncle Sam that's paying for those services anyway.

(guess who Uncle Sam is, duh, yeah thats right all US Taxpayers).

So the President knows about the big bad Insurance Corporations.

_________________________________________________________

What is done:

Rewards the Insurance Corporations, Medical Device Industry, and Pharmaceutical Industry for Campaign Contributions (for November 2010 Elections).

THE PRESIDENT'S PROPOSAL February 22, 2010

Page 10. Manditory Insurance, fined or jail (more suckers for the Insurance Corporations to deny claims): "Like the drug industry, the health insurance industry stands to gain as more Americans get coverage."

Page 10. "The medical device industry also stands to gain from expanding health insurance coverage."

Page 9. "Both policies will result in new revenue for the pharmaceutical industry."

BY GETTING THE INSURANCE CORPORATIONS OUT OF THE MEDICAL PROFESSION

What Congress Gets:

"We're able to access that health care 24 hours a day when we're in Washington," Graham said, leading us to the Attending Physician's Office, a clinic inside the U.S. Capitol. They don't even have to leave the office.

About half of the members of Congress, including House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, use the Attending Physician benefit. For $42 a month, they can get all the primary care they need - physical therapy, X-rays, minor surgery, specialists and a pharmacy for emergencies - no appointment needed.

They also get VIP hospital treatment from the best doctors at Bethesda Naval Hospital. And they have a reserved spot at the elite Ward 72 at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, where the late Sen. Strom Thurmond spent a lot of time.

Outpatient care is free. Well, free for them. Your tax dollars pick up the cost.

The Hypocrisy is that the late Senator Kennedy of whom the Democratic Party refer to as the champion of this so called Health Care Reform used the Medical Services listed above for $42 per month. As well as Bethesda Naval Hospital (reference New Media footage of his departure after treatment at Bethesda).

BY GETTING THE INSURANCE CORPORATIONS OUT OF THE MEDICAL PROFESSION:

Decreases cost 80% (last part of video, 1:40) by Doctor David Ores, New York.1:45

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5247963n&tag=contentMain;contentBody

THIS CRAP IS ALL ABOUT THE PAYBACK TO THE INSURANCE CORPORATIONS FOR CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS!!!!!!!!! AND NOT REAL HEALTH CARE REFORM (MEDICAL PROFESSION).

House speaker will keep money from 'villains', Pelosi called insurers 'immoral,' despite receiving funds from industry.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32237227/ns/politics-cq_politics

We want what they have for $42 per month. Not this Insurance Scam (manditory purchase of Insurance, more suckers for denial of claims).

"We're able to access that health care 24 hours a day when we're in Washington," Graham said, leading us to the Attending Physician's Office, a clinic inside the U.S. Capitol. They don?t even have to leave the office.

About half of the members of Congress, including House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, use the Attending Physician benefit. For $42 a month, they can get all the primary care they need - physical therapy, X-rays, minor surgery, specialists and a pharmacy for emergencies - no appointment needed.

They also get VIP hospital treatment from the best doctors at Bethesda Naval Hospital. And they have a reserved spot at the elite Ward 72 at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, where the late Sen. Strom Thurmond spent a lot of time.

Outpatient care is free. Well, free for them. Your tax dollars pick up the cost."

If it is good enough for the President, Vice President, Speaker of the House, Senator Max Baucas, Congress, and all those trying ram something up our arses that they will never use (be screwed over by).

We want what they have for $42 per month.

NO ANAL RAPE.

Contact President:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/

Contact Congress:

http://www.contactingthecongress.org/

Keep emailing them until they respond.

Peed-off Peon

I think everyone can agree that most Americans have employer-provided coverage. I also think everyone can agree that most Americans don't make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Given the rate at which health insurance premiums have been rising in the past decade, that means health insurance has been essentially taking most peoples raises and will continue to do so. Our expense to our employers is viewed as the total package - salary, benefits, time off, etc. The average cost of an employee to his/her employer has been going up at double-digit rates, but the employee only sees a fraction of that because most of it is eaten up by health insurance. This pattern is unsustainable. We can't just "leave well enough alone."

Bribes and Lies, the change obama stands for! The cost is this country's greatness which is exactly what obama and his group of marxists, communists and progressives don't mind destroying. 2010 and 2012 will be monumental and a long term turning point for this country!

Gramps, your right STAY OUT OF MY MEDICARE. He in NC they said last week that you have to buy the GENERIC BRANDS. Well the Generic Brands don't work I everyone. I know they changed my BLOOD PRESSURE PILLS and I got light headed and did it also while DRIVING.
If all of you people out there think that when you get on Medicare your problems are over, THINK AGAIN.
You pay $105.00 for the A part, and $95.00 for the D part, Than you have to buy INSURENCE for the B Part. It cost me $85.00 a month. PLUS I have to pay for what the Insurance doesn't pick up ,which cost me another $100.00 a month. SO ADD IT UP. Than I have to buy my WIFE her INS. which is another $285.00 WHICH COMES OUT to about $670.00 a MONTH.
WHERE IN THE HELL IS THE SAVINGS.
The only ones who will Benefit from this is People who don't pay into it and people on WELFARE. The Rest of us BOOBS who pick up the COST.

Mark-302117

Setting aside the veracity of your claim, you neglect to mention that Bush/Repubs passed Part D without funding it. If you're going to increase Medicare benefits, you should probably increase the withholding as well. And now, conservatives scream about how Medicare is failing. You think a multi-trillion dollar unfunded mandate had something to do with that?

Something new - then fix part D. It is a one-time gift, unless he plans on giving seniors this amount every year, which I doubt. Anyway - if something is broken you fix the parts that are broken, like part D. Also go with the Republican proposed (and many Dems said this as well!) to change portability of insurance, add tort reform, increase the availability of Medicaid to citizens in need and do away with fraud in Medicare. Why is that so hard? If we made those fixes now, saw how it worked, made a few adjustments as needed later - we would be doing the smart thing, the right thing. But no - this administration has to throw the baby out with the bath water and chooses to increase costs in one area (taxes and fines) to reduce costs in another. Why not just reduce in the one area that is needed??? I just don't get it. Would move into a new house and take on a new mortgage if you had a leaky pipe? The leaky pipe is costing you a big increase in your water bill, but is it worth taking on debt for at least 10, maybe 20 years plus all of of the up-front costs to move into a new home just because you want to save some on your water bill? That would just be stupid, but that is about what this bill does. At least what we know of it!! because we don't even know what else is hidden in this bill!!! what is a tuition loan statement doing in here?? what else is in this bill?? That would be like buying a house you have not seen and have no idea what the real final cost will be - is there a pool that require constant up-keep? Who knows, do you? No one right now knows, not even the people voting on it!!!! Fix the pipe. /throws up hands and walks away in disgust

Everyone should got to Free Our Healthcare Now:

http://www.capitolconnect.com/freeourhealthcarenow/

It will help you send a letter to your congressmen to stop this bill.

"These guys REALLY think we are that stupid?" (post 1.6)

Yes they do.

The Pell grant legislation has no business in the health care bill. As desirable as it is to make more money available for a college education this should be a stand alone piece of legislation or put in a bill concerning education not in the health care bill. I am sure the 60 billion estimated savings are somehow included in the supposed health care savings which they have nothing to do with. In fact if the money is used to provide more Pell grants as stated there is no budgetary savings just administrative savings.

John Bartimac

I would be happy to buy into Medicare at a rate that would subsidize you and others, but the Republicans won't let me.

slowclimber Gramps, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Slowclimber. I know what you're saying but, I have to kind of take pity on people like Gramps. I think basic human pride will never allow people like him/her/it to admit they/it made a mistake votng for him or acknowledge the corruption of this administration despite it being so blatantly obvious.

Plus, I'm pretty sure Obama and his thugs would pass it any way they could with or without the support of the Obama zombies. It's sad.

One thing, however, all this has taught me. I used to think that realistically NO ONE, not even the socialist/liberal/progressive/dem people could possibly feel that bigger government, higher taxes, more government control in our lives, less freedom, could be something ANYONE would actually want.

But they do. They really really do. The people like Gramps, joe mota, something new and the others actually feel comforted by the thought of Obama telling what to do and when to do it. They actually do share a form of worship for this guy. They just can't seem to fathom the notion that he is not their savior but just another sleazy politician who attends to his own interests first.

Sad. I pity them.

I'm certainly glad you're amused Tim.

Sounds like you have the same disregard for the Constitution as Obama and his underlings!

You must be so proud.

If it does pass, I don't want to hear you whining when the $hit hits the fan over the unconstitutionality of it, and all that "savings" goes to lawyers defending OUR COUNTRY'S LAWS.

cmac-1214259

The portability concept raises issues of soverignty. That is, you'd be asking regulators in state x to allow an insurance company licensed in state y to sell insurance in state x with no oversight. Major constitutional challenge their. The only way to really dowhat you're describing is to regulate health insurance at the national level. Then you'll have conservatives screaming about states' rights - and they'd have a point. It could be done, but it would be tough. Unfortunately, nither party is suggesting this. Instead, you have the proposal you mentioned which would turn one state in the union into an insurance hell-hole (i.e., what Delaware is to corporate law).

Tort reform is a good idea, but mutually exclusive from the current proposal. I wouldn't be against it.

Increased fraud control measures? It's in there. Nobody can argue that there shouldn't be more fraud control.

Increasing the availability of Medicare is something Repubs have been fighting against. One of the proposals rejected outright last summer would have lowered the Medicare eligibility rate to 50 or 55 (can't remember).

In short, you have good ideas that can and should be done alongside what's going on now. Regardless, all of these things will cost money (even tort reform). So, the ultimate questions will remain: Who pays? And how?

The Colonel-964761

You're not still pushing that "government takeover" line are you? Nice!

When I hear a congressman say he's not worried about controversy and another say he's not worried about the election---that's good. Unlike the CBO, we're telling you what's going to happen. You'll get a real definite figure in Nov. 'TO SERVE THE PEOPLE", you'all forgot that. What you want doesn't count. It's what we want that counts. All we have is the power of the vote---just like you---we're going to use it. I wouldn't be surprised if the Nov. election sees the biggest turnaround in history. All you have to do is read these blogs. For every 1 or 2 in favor, there's 10 opposed. We don't like the bill, how it's getting done, and above all how it's getting paid for.

500 billion is coming out of medicare to pay for this bill-----then------we can try to fix that?????

Something new please

Increased fraud control measures? It's in there.

How exactly are they planning to eliminate $500 BILLION dollars of waste, fraud and abuse that no one has been able to do in the past? And how much will it cost?

Stan W.

I hate to break it to you, but people have been saying what you're saying since the founding of this Republic, yet 90% of our elected officials in Washington keep getting re-elected. In spite of our differing views, I'm always happy to see people involved in the political process. I only wish we could get 80-90% voter turnout each year.

Second decade was given a $1.3T deficit reduction.

USARogue

First, they're going to send undercover patients in to doctors they suspect are scamming. They're also making the system of coding uniform (I won't lie, there's controversy surrounding this). Some of what is currently categorized as "abuse" is really the result of coding errors. Regardless, your point about cost is valid. Any enforcement measure will have a cost. Then you have to figure out if you're recouping more than you're spending. That being said, I think we both agree that more should be done to address Medicare fraud. Personally, I'd like to see longer jail sentences and harsher fines. I know doctors and dentists that went down for Medicare/Medicaid fraud that didn't spend a day in jail - suspended sentence and community service. They don't lose enough when they get busted.

Something - I said Medicaid, not Medicare - lowering the age of Medicare is not realistic, most people can and do continue to work well into their 50's. The big issue is covering those not covered because they are poor or disabled, etc. For that Medicaid is the one that should be allowed to increase its acceptance rate - some. We agree on some of the big issues. By the way - why would tort reform cost us taxpayers money? Just curious how your thinking goes on that one. If we can agree on some of the big issues, why is the President having to make back room deals and not release what is in the bill to anyone until after it is (not)voted on? Why is there so much arm-twisting going on, the back-door method of passing the bill? If there is true rational thinking going on and we, and they, know what needs to be fixed then why is this bill even being considered?

When the Republicans announced their ideas (mostly the ideas we agree on believe it or not) earlier this year they were told "thanks but no thanks - we have in mind what we (Obama, Pelosi and Reid) want and that is the only thing that is going to pass - no matter what". Is that the best way our country should be run? I think you would agree with me on that one too - no it is not.

Besides the increased cost to me in taxes the thing I am most appalled at from this whole thing is how the government is being run right now - the fact that illegal aliens will benefit from my increased taxes (unless somehow they changed that wording from the original bill - but who knows since no one has seen it), that people are blindly agreeing with a government that thinks it somehow knows better than us what is good for us (I was an educated adult last time I checked, you?), and that the idea of our government being able to pass laws "no matter what" is frightening.

Our foreign affairs are a mess, our economy is a mess, our jobs situation is horrendous and all this administration can think of right now is to pass a bill dreamt up by a few, apparently not popular with most and supported by less than half of the citizens. Wouldn't you come back to this or pass a measure that took care of a few key issues that all agreed on right now then focus on other even more pressing issues? Makes me think there is a lot more hidden in this bill than we even can imagine.

Gee Something New, You're still not spouting the same old Democratic talking points are you ?

REALITY: This bill will result in the creation of between 117 and 150 new federal agencies to administer (government takeover anyone ?). Then today, we hear new changes that have not been voted on to hire 16,000 new IRS agents to enforce compliance (gestapo anyone ?).

The government REQUIRES you to buy insurance from a private company (probably unconstitutional anyone ?), only THEY (the government) will decide who gets subsidies because they "can't afford it (control and welfare anyone ?).

Let's not forget, the government will select those doctors who have end-of-life decision-making power (insanity anyone?)

IT IS TOTALLY ABOUT GOVERNMENT TAKEOVER and GROWING GOVERNMENT at the expense of the economy and the American people !!!!

Something new please

The reason I ask is that all efforts to date have been futile. Interestingly, one of the main reasons is that this was found to be one of the main problems of the Federal agencies recovering lost funds by the AARP.

According to government reports, funds recovered from enforcement activities cannot be fully accounted for and may have been spent by federal agencies for other, non-Medicare-related activities.

Here is the main problem with allowing MORE government control of health care, or for that matter ANY sector requiring oversight. This happens in EVERY agency in government because it's TOO BIG!!!!!!

For those of you who are wondering what government run healthcare will be like. Since the government controls the healthcare of our military men and women and their families, here is a sneak peak - When my daughter became pregnant (her husband is serving in the military), she immediately started trying to get an appointment (we are all told how important early pre-natal care is). She finally got to see a doctor at 6 months because she said "the heck with it" and decided that she would see a doctor off base and just pay whatever the "insurance" didn't cover otherwise she could have seen her first doctor at delivery. Well, the baby was born and through a civilian doctor it was discovered that she had a hole in her heart. If it was not closed at 2 year old, it may require surgery. She is now almost 3 and still waiting for a follow-up with military doctors, but the civilian doctors won't treat because the military "insurance" won't pay.

Yeah, this makes me want to support the government controlling all healthcare. They can't even manage the several hundred thousand military personnel and they want to manage 300 million people.

Also, just a question, what do student loans and aid to "historically black colleges" have to do with healthcare reform? Just curious?

Something new please

The Colonel-964761

You're not still pushing that "government takeover" line are you? Nice

Like this. Here's an example of someone with little to no reading comprehension based on their statement. Like I said. Their worship for a politician is so sad and bewildering.

I do pity them.

This would be about 1/10 of what the Bush Administration cost us with tax cuts to the rich, bailouts of Wall Street, and an illegal war.

I want to know if the next elections are going to be "paused" over and over until all the candidates know how it will turn out - and THEN vote...

This "buying votes" for months while holding off the actual vote should be illegal - as with MANY things ALL politicians do.

The bill can/should be worked out until all are "happy" but asking HOW a person is going to vote should not be allowed.

Too many people are swayed by others - simply wanting to follow the crowd. If you don't know what the "crowd" is going to DO, you would have to THINK FOR YOURSELF.

But I digress, a lot of people (as shown with this bill) are blatantly stating they want the government to think FOR them and CONTROL more and more of their lives. So I suppose the top of this post is "ancient" in retrospect.

Bunch of lazy stupid beggars looking for their next handout...

If this passes, I hope all those in favor GET what they deserve - and surely WILL.

The Colonel-964761

As always, I feel blessed to be pitied by an intillect of your magnitude.

----------------------------------

USARogue

"Here is the main problem with allowing MORE government control of health care, or for that matter ANY sector requiring oversight. This happens in EVERY agency in government because it's TOO BIG!!!!!!"

There's a logical flaw in there. Do you see it? No? I'll explain. If the "oversight problem" is endemic in government, then the size of government isn't really the problem. By your logic, even if the government was reduced to one function, say national defense, they would do a crappy job at that. In other words, you hate the troops. Just kidding. Put my point stands, if you thin that the government can't do anything right and elect leaders that feel the same way, you'll get exactly what you deserve. I've spent time working for both the private sector and government. I can tell you that they both have waste, fraud, and abuse. The nature of the three changes from public to private, as does the extent - it's greater in the private sector. If you think that your health insurance will do a better job looking out for you than the government, you have a rude awakening coming.

----------------

JIM041424

Anything to support those numbers? I heard O'Reilly talking last night and even he didn't say the bill would "create" that many agencies. I believe the phrase he used was "create or expand." (Emphasis mine.) In either case, any proof to back up your conservative talking points?

This would be about 1/10 of what the Bush Administration cost us with tax cuts to the rich, bailouts of Wall Street, and an illegal war.

Care to back that up with some real evidence. Of course I do expect you to include the hundreds of billions in the Obama column that Bush spent in the first stimulus at Obama's request.

Can you also please document how the war in Iraq is illegal (did Congress and Senate not vote for it??) and precisely what President Spendalot did to make it legal (after all aren't we still fighting there??). Or are you implying that Obama is also waging an illegal war?

“…."It's a debate that is not only about the cost of our health care but the character of our country…”- President Obama.

See:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35928063/ns/politics-health_care_reform/

MEDICARE CUTS

Our Senior’s get their funding cut……..

Doctors don’t get paid

(you might not find many doctors accepting Medicare..after this…..)

“More Than $520 Billion Cut From Hospitals, Nursing Homes, Hospice, Home Health Programs, Medicare Advantage, And Much More…”

See:

http://arkansasgopwing.blogspot.com/2010/03/new-health-bill-even-more-medicare-cuts.html

“Shift in Medicare Advantage payouts: Government payments to Medicare Advantage, the private-health plan alternative to traditional Medicare, would be cut back more steeply than under the Senate bill: $132 billion over 10 years, compared to $118 billion.”

See:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35947758/ns/health-health_care/

(though they did back in some money..but big deal..it’s still being cut…in fear that docs wouldn’t drop medicare patients…)

ABORTION

Abortion is supported by the pending legislature because PRIVATE INSURANCE is or would be subsidized by Tax Credits and other subsides from the government to obtain health insurance by the government. This is unlike the claim that abortion is not supported. The support is indirect.

No matter if you support or do not abortion the politicians and the press have lied about this indirect support of abortion since they have stated numerous times abortion is not supported.

“Heftier subsidies: Compared to the Senate legislation, the reconciliation bill would provide more generous subsidies to low- and moderate-income Americans to help them buy health coverage.”

See:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35947758/ns/health-health_care/

COST

Just 940 Billion? NO.

Senate Bill = 940 Billion

Reconciliation Bill = 794 Billion

1.7 TRILLION DOLLARS _not— 940 Billion

…save 138 Billion…

1734 - 138 = - 1.5 TRILLION in --RED INK—(deficit).

I don't know about YOU but this puts my calculator on tilt basically….

See:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35928063/ns/politics-health_care_reform/

TAXES RAISED

"How about taxes? The Senate bill that Democrats are so afraid to take a vote on raises taxes by $494 billion. This bill increases those tax hikes by at least $150 billion."

See:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35928063/ns/politics-health_care_reform/

If you are Union watch for this one…….

“The “Maserati” tax: The levy on high-cost insurance plans is scaled back and delayed, rendering it more a "Maserati" than a "Cadillac" tax. It would apply only to the portion of plans costing more than $10,200 a year for individuals, up from $8,500, and $27,500 for families, up from $23,000. The tax wouldn't kick in until 2018, reducing the projected revenue to the government by 80 percent. ---------Over time, however, the tax would hit more and more plans-----------, because the tax's threshold is set to increase at the rate of inflation while ----------premiums are expected to continue to grow much more quickly than that------------.” ((NO COST CONTROLS))

See:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35947758/ns/health-health_care/

NO ACTUAL COST CONTROLS FOR INSURANCE

There are no actual cost controls. What this means because of the prohibition of pre-existing conditions. When the ill sign up for insurance the insurance company will have to spread the risk among the healthy policy holders. Just get insurance when you are sick or the IRS penalty..whichever is more cost effective??

Yes, premiums will RISE…….

"TANNER: "Don't count on your insurance premiums going down. According to the Congressional Budget Office, the bills do little or nothing to reduce insurance premiums. For millions of Americans, the Senate bill will actually make things worse, increasing insurance premiums by 10%-13% for Americans who buy their insurance through the non-group market, that is those who don't receive insurance from their employer. Those increases are over and above the increases that would occur if we did nothing — roughly doubling premiums by 2016, according to the CBO. You also may not be able to keep the insurance you have today. Insurance plans would have to meet certain government-defined standards. Those standards may be more expensive than your current plan or may include benefits you don't want."

See:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/what_the_health_care_bill_means_q4RfvokUcA48vq51uOwl8K

THE CBO

The CBO ___does not__— consider other mandated spending such as Social Security and the Postal Service (nor discretionary spending), while making its preliminary budget assessments that is called cooking the books similarly what ENRON did with theirs…The

CBO though considers Medicare and Medicaid...

The Recon Bill is NOT scored by the CBO.

"Although CBO completed a preliminary review of legislative language prior to its

release, the agency has not thoroughly examined the reconciliation proposal to verify its

consistency with the previous draft…..Approximately $85 billion of that reduction would be on-budget; other effects related to Social Security revenues and spending as well as spending by the U.S. Postal Service are classified as off-budget. CBO has not completed an estimate of the potential impact of the legislation on discretionary spending, which would be subject to future appropriation action."

See:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_Politics/hr4872.pdf

TAX CREDITS

Face Civil Penalties from the IRS if people do not get insurance.

The tax credits to help defray the cost of obtaining insurance, especially for the two wage earner family, will be limited IF any…

Approximately 30% of people can’t even afford car insurance let alone health insurance.

"Beginning in 2014, most Americans would be required for the first time to purchase insurance, and face penalties if they refused. Millions of families with incomes up to $88,000 a year would receive government help to defray their costs. Large businesses would face fines if they did not offer good-quality coverage to their workers."

See:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35928063/ns/politics-health_care_reform/

Nice eh? The middle class gets it AGAIN…….

RECONCILIATION/NUCLEAR OPTION 2005

(Obama and other Democrats)

After denouncing the Reconciliation Process they now use it….They just as bad as Republican’s? If you denounce one you have to do the other…..

“As not gotten his [President Bush] way and is prompting and would change the character of the Senate forever, you have majoritarian absolute power on one side...” I worry about that essentially you still have to chambers the house and the senate but you have simply majoritarian absolute power on either side and that’s not what the founders intended.”

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjdbjrXiobQ

-The now President Barack Obama (when he was a Senator)

Now Reconciliation makes sense (when Obama is President):

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IwbTLqMcrM

“I say to my friends to the republican side you may own the field right now you won’t own it forever. I pray God when the Democrats take back control we don’t do the naked power grab.”

“....it is a fundamental power grab...”

-The now Vice Joe Biden (when he was a Senator)

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjdbjrXiobQ

“Mr. President the right to extend the debate is more important when one party controls congress and the white house. In these cases the filibuster acts as check on power and preserves our limited government.”

“But No we are not going to follow the Senate rules, no because of the arrogance of this Republican Congress.”

-Senator Henry Reid (the Senator Majority leader)

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjdbjrXiobQ

“We are on a professes of a crisis a constitutional crisis. The checks and balances which have been at the core of this republic are about to be evaporated by the nuclear option….”

-Senator Schumer

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjdbjrXiobQ

-Senator Feinstein

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjdbjrXiobQ

“I never passed a single bill worth talking about that didn’t have a lead co-sponsor as a republican....there is tyranny of the majority....”

-Senator Dodd

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjdbjrXiobQ

“This is a way democracy ends not with a gong but with a gavel.”

-Senator Baucus

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjdbjrXiobQ

-The now Secretary of State Hillary Clinton

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjdbjrXiobQ

"Citing reports that Obama had told members of the Hispanic caucus that his presidency depends on the bill's passage, he added, "I'm sorry, Mr. President, this isn't about you."

See:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35928063/ns/politics-health_care_reform/

Conclusion:

This “reform” stuff is about the President and the other elected officials and is not about the people. Seniors are having their funding cut to medicare. The middle class are having their taxes raised, people who can’t afford the insurance will be having IRS civil penalties assessed, insurance premiums will continue to rise (which will be taxed once risen), the bills cost over 1.7 TRILLION dollars not just 940 billion in which social security and other mandated programs were left out of the equation (ENRON accounting), and there will be a decrease in benefits while we pay MORE for less.

IF this Mr. President is the AMERICA you are describing then it is a SAD day.

Each and every house and senate representative who votes for this health “reform” (more like health care cutting) should be voted out…(along with YOU Mr. President).

The source has been right here on Newsvine (MSNBC) for the last several weeks. I don't recall seeing your posts during that time frame, so I assume you were asleep. Go back and check it, do YOUR homework.......some of the articles may still be active.

Voter-in-LA

The Heritage Foundation puts the cots of Bush's tax cuts at between $1.4-1.5 trillion. (They agree the actual cost is/was just north of $1.8 trillion, but discount the figure by about $400 billion under the theory of increased revenue from job creation.) However, non-conservative think tanks put it at around $2.5 trillion. Google it if you don't believe me. And then there's the cost of the unfunded Medicare expansion. Conservatives' heads would explode (see: current events) if a Dem were to pass an entitlement expansion of that size. But somehow, when a Repub does it, it's not just okay, it's heroic. I can't wait to see all the Tea Parties going on the next time a Repub is in the Oval Office.

This is not affordable with a military empire to sustain on behalf of the pentagon. Until defense spending goes down we can not afford healthcare or education expenditures. You can be a "hawk" or you can be a "dove", you can not be both.

I am an Indepenant and I vollenteered to answed phones for a Democrat today. Got several phone calls from registered Democrat voters who identifed themselves by name and urged the official who's phone I was answering. To Vote in favor of the healthcare/insurance reform Bill. One man in particular is registered as being 68 years old on record and when I called that number back from my cell phone and asked for that person, a 20 something sounding male claimed to be the 68 year old man. when I confronted the 20 something male about the call to the official's office, the 20 something male hung up and when i called back a second time the phone was set to go to voice mail on the first ring. When I called the phone number on record for that 68 year old democrat voter he answered and sounded like a 68 year old man. and said that "he did not call" this Official's office today. I spent the next 6 hours confirming the caller's numbers and calling them back on my cell phone. Nine out of 50 did call this elected official's office today. 41 were phony callers. Sounds like Acorn is at it again.

Let's see...Obama got the stimulus, the biggest budget in history, and the jobs program. We are out of money already and now they do this... very sleazy, backroom deals and probably threats...and most of America does not want this. The senators could have done this much better by fixing what was broken, but no. Everybody has to get their piece of the pie EXCEPT the American people who'll get the bill. Our country is not like Europe...we have way more people that don't work and don't contribute. We will be underwater fast.

Everyone should realize that since this healthcare law is being made into law by "deem and pass" and budget reconciliation, so that it doesn't require a specific vote in the house and only 51 votes in the Senate; it is very likely that IT WILL BE AMENDED THE VERY SAME WAY!

rightman1

Given your handle and other statements, I highly doubt any of your statements is true. But it's a nice story. You should write for Fox News.

Something new please As always, I feel blessed to be pitied by an intillect of your magnitude.

No problem. Fortunately an "intillect" like me is around to show you how to spell "intellect."

LOL!

We can only hope and pray that the fencesitters suddenly realize that Obama won't be able to save their political careers come re-election time! In fact, with Obama's track record of "helping candidates" they better run as fast as they can away from him. Just the idea that Obama has pulled in his campaign manager to help these people will turn off their voters.

Has anyone but me wondered how this bill suddenly more than doubled in cost while "cutting costs"? The CFO says that the figures they are using are VERY priliminary and will change...no doubt to the worse!

Like his heros, Che Guevera, Hugo Chavez, and Yassir Arafat, Barack Hussein Obama wants to make history, no matter what it costs the rest of us. Personally, I think that Joe Wilson was far too polite, but he is the only person in the entire Congress who has any cojones whatsoever. If you don't know what cojones are, you probably need them too. Google it.

34 states are preparing to sue over this HC Bill If it passes. Why, the cost cutting means more is relegated to the states to handle with no money to cover the costs of administrating or paying for federal mandates. That is not a saving money, that is robbing Peter to pay Paul. The real cost numbers must be staggeringly large.

So only around 30% want this turdsickle. Where are the cheerleaders coming from and how many is he paying with our tax dollars??

I for one resent the constant emails from the Ego in Chief's staff to get people to contact the Senators and/or Representatives to pressure them to vote for this plan just so he can claim he did it. I have even tried to block these emails only to have them sent under another email address, to me our president has become the BULLY IN CHIEF. Any respect that I might have had for him and the people voting for the FORCED HEALTH INSURANCE BILL IS NON-EXISTENT NOW. This president appears to be a bully, a nag and less than honest and not a person to be respected. I don't want this bill passed and you cannot nag me into it no matter what BO so just go on your trip please.

I hope the legislation is more good than bad. As a nurse, my heart breaks for all the americans that are shut out of the healthcare system when they lose their job, or lose their health and cannot get insurance. I would prefer medicare for all so that costs can be controlled. Socialized medicine is medicare(50%) and medicaid and VA benefits. I believe healthcare is a right and a good society puts equity and social justice in place for all people!

We cannot afford healthcare until we stop war and defund the pentagon!

This whole process makes me want to vomit. The only good thing is that these idiots will be gone and a new congress that actually cares about the will of the people will repeal this mess.

Isn't Nancy Pelosi a lot like Delores Umbridge in Order of the Phoenix?

The Government has never run a program that saves money and this be will surely cost more than they are saying. Did they include in the supposed savings the 1400 (or was it 14,000) new IRS Jobs to oversee this program ?

CBO gave those numbers in a later "revision". We get boned for $2.5-3T during the 10 years commencing after benefits start. The first 4 years, you pay extra, but get nothing for it. Since CBO estimates are typically off by 2X or 3X, this will drive the country into insolvency.

All I can say is this has

Dewey Defeats Truman

Written all over it. It will be great to see the face of Obama when it does not pass. Anyone who votes for this bill is OUT of a job come Nov 2010 or 2012..enjoy the stupidity while you can.

Remember remember when you vote in November.

Stay on em' America! These are the names. Do not let the forget America where we stand, NO Obamacare!!!!

Congressman Jim Oberstar
(202) 225-6211
Congressman Nick Rahall
(202) 225-3452
Congressman Mike Michaud
(202) 225-6306
Congressman Earl Pomeroy
(202) 225-2611
Congressman Harry Teague
(202) 225-2365
Congressman Harry Mitchell
(202) 225-2190
Congressman Chris Carney
(202) 225-3731
Congressman Henry Cuellar
(202) 225-1640
Congressman Kathy Dahlkemper
(202) 225-5406
Congressman Glenn Nye
(202) 225-4215
Congressman Zack Space
(202) 225-6265
Congressman Solomon Ortiz
(202) 225-7742
Congressman Jim Matheson
(202) 225-3011

One thing a lot of folks seemingly aren't considering is this. If the Repubs gain control of the house or Senate, the leadership chairs will change. Pelosi will be gone. Dodd is retiring. The Whitehouse will change in 2012 if BO tries for a second term? HCR might get repealed; if not, certainly tweaked. Anything done can get undone. This bill/law will face many legal challenges. It won't survive them all. The NYT, who I despise as a newspaper, said that passage of this bill is only the first shot fired. Should the Supreme court rule that states can pull out of the plan, this plan will fall to pieces. We all got a good look at our government processes, throwing OUR tax dollars around to buy votes. If we bought votes, we'd be in jail. Next on the agenda, government reform.

Okay. as I did not read all 316 comments, maybe I missed the one that point this out, but it was not the Democrats who initiated the amount of cost, but the nonpartisan CBO who did. And to answer the comment #1 more fully, the CBO did provide the first and second decades savings....138 billion in the first decade and 1.2 TRILLION in the second. That's savings folks!

Stan W.-

What you listed is exactly why most of my friends will be voting for the first time ever. Many of them are in college, and don't mind paying later if need be for coverage today. They and their parents are grateful.

Many of them are in college, and don't mind paying later if need be for coverage today.

If they are in college then I assume they have basic reading and comprehension skills. Perhaps they should make use of them by reading the bill and doing a little research about how they are calculating those savings. Once they do they will realize that the perceived savings of the first 10 years is predicated upon paying for 10 and only receiving 6. There will be no coverage "today". Your friends will be paying for four years before they receive any coverage.

BTW the Wimpy philosophy of "I'll gladly pay Tuesday for a hamburger today." is part of the problem.

Lynn W,-----------------------------I like your stuff!!!!

Kate-

Actually, I read the bill alone, twice and my friends and I went through it together. WE are going through it again today as a matter of fact. Thus far, our findings contradict yours to include our understanding that coverage for students is within the year. As for your philosophy, I had to ask my mom about that one, but, I would agree with you if we had nothing to gain. Unlike say war, where the money goes out, pays for others health care and brings us back Americans in body bags. I would rather pay out to keep my friends/citizens alive when I am thinking about what is worth spending money on that I will be paid back later. As it is my future, I think I have the right to make that determination for myself. Sorry but saving about 45 thousand Americans a year matters more to me than green paper. I will rise or fall in support of all Americans and not just the few who some would prefer to pre- select.

Then you need to join a commune since that is what you are espousing. That's a wee bit different than a republic.

You have the right to voluntarily contribute to any fund for the uninsured you'd like, but you don't have the right to force others to do so. One is charity and the other extortion.

len miles-

Thanks for the list. On the phone now. I will call them all to encourage them to stand strong! That only the fringe are against this bill and once it passes, people who are indvidual thinkers will see the benefits and know who told them the truth and who lied to them finally.

Second decade= $1Trillion in savings. This has been published umpteen times. (CBO figures)

why believe the CBO? All DC has is a bunch of pimps, liars, thieves and scoundrels- and that's just in the West Wing.

Something new please

I think everyone can agree that most Americans have employer-provided coverage

NO I don't think I can agree. I happen to work in a small business, and many of the people I know work also work at small business' that do not offer healthcare coverage. Those people I know that actually work for some very large companies have very costly coverage which makes it unaffordable, so I stand by what I said. The lack of good decent paying jobs is what affect most people in America in regards to the healthcare problem. Since most business' are small business, the problem I describe affects many. These politicians and many people here have their rose colored glasses on. Enacting healthcare for all does not solve the fundamental problem of lack of income that many here face. It only is going to make things worse. While I will agree that enabling ALL to obtain healthcare is a GOOD thing, without denial for pre-existing conditions, but being able to pay for it is another matter entirely. Those of you who are all for this, will soon be griping about having to pay the subsidy for those who cannot afford it.

Welcome to the U.S.S.A (united socialist states of america) - Socialized medicine for all, except those who are deemed important enough to have their own brand. I guess thats where Deem and Pass comes in. If your not Deemed important enough, you will Pass (away)

Hey, I'm think of start a new company now that Obamacare went through: Insurance Insurance.

The company would give you an insurance like card that the hospital would call should you get sick or in an accident or anything. That company would then buy you insurance for a short period of time for you while you need it then drop the plan when it is no longer needed.

In essence, you would be covered for everything without having to pay for insurance when not needed. Even with fines and what ever monthly service fee they had it would still be cheaper than current insurance plans especially after the necessary rate hikes hit. If nothing is done, a company like this would make a lot of money and collapse all the insurance companies.

OBAMACARE MAKES IT POSSOBLE.

I hate having to come back here and say I was right....But I was right!!!!

China, of course.

@JJD-561872,

They're going to pull this money out of their magic cash-generating hats, unless they're all broken, in which case they'll just try to tax the rest of us into poverty...

@ISpeakTruth,

Don't know why, but I'm actually comforted that there are people out here who did worse in math in school than I did. What does scare me, though, is that one of them thinks that spending $940 billion to save $100 billion over ten years is an accomplishment. My old "Bonehead Math" teacher would be amazed...

Sorry - China say No !

Sorry - Magic hat empty

Bingo - they'll just try to tax the rest of us into poverty...

You win, move straight on to GO, collect $200, pay $160 dollars in taxes to pay for someone elses' health care Thank You.

Lloyd on China BINGO!

It will come from Obama's stash.

I can tell you exactly "where" the money is coming from. In Obama's own words: "It will be paid for by slashing Medicare by $400 billion dollars." Now, Medicare is something I paid for all my working life with money withheld from my paycheck along with Social Security taxes. When I reached the magical age of 65, I was supposed to be able to draw on that fund for medical purposes. We got no raise this year in S.S., our Medicare premiums went up almost $100 a month, and now Barry wants to slash our benefits. Don't look for any elderly votes in 2012, Barry.

Biloxipat, the 400 billion from medicare is from medicare advantage which over pays and is not efficient. Your health care from medicare is expected to stay the same.

As I said above the CBO evaluations are very accurate, and they do evaluations about their projections and real costs as compared to private agencies that do the same. The margin of error is about 2% so they are very accurate.

1. CUTS THE DEFICIT Cuts the deficit by $130 billion in the first ten years (2010 – 2019). Cuts the deficit by $1.2 trillion in the second ten years.

1. REINS IN WASTEFUL MEDICARE COSTS AND EXTENDS THE SOLVENCY OF MEDICARE; CLOSES THE PRESCRIPTION DRUG DONUT HOLE Reduces annual growth in Medicare expenditures by 1.4 percentage points per year—while improving benefits and lowering costs for seniors. Extends Medicare’s solvency by at least 9 years.

1. EXPANDS AND IMPROVES HEALTH COVERAGE FOR MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES Expands health insurance coverage to 32 million Americans Helps guarantee that 95 percent of Americans will be covered.

1. IS FULLY PAID FOR Is fully paid for – costs $940 billion over a decade. (Americans spend nearly $2.5 trillion each year on health care now and nearly two-thirds of the bill’s cost is paid for by reducing health care costs).

Why isn't that information the 'Headline' shown by all the News Media web-sites?

They are not accurate, because they are all based on assuptions. They assume the economy will improve, They assume that our GDP will increase. They assume that the income from taxes will rise. They have had years to fix the healthcare costs and haven't done it. The have had years to get SS solvent, and medicare solvent. they haven't done it. What makes anyone believe they can get this right. Not to mention it creates over a hundred new Government agencies. It is a farce of a bill and does nothing to lover the cost of healthcare. All it will do is grow government and spend (waste) more money.

Eric - I'll say it AGAIN.

The "doctor fix" was taken OUT of the bills last fall to make them come in under a trillion.

The cost of the "doctor fix" is at least $200 billion and some estimates put it close to $350 billion.

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2009/October/20/stabenow-and-doc-fix.aspx

A recent bill included a stop-gap measure to this ongoing problem which leads to doctors dropping Medicare and cost shifting.

http://www.politico.com/livepulse/0310/Congress_four_week_doc_fix_.html

They've been trying to hide this and kick this can down the road for a very long time, and stripping it out of the bills is nothing but a lie to make the costs look lower than they are.

If this "fix" is included, AS IT SHOULD BE, there is NO deficit neutrality and in fact the bill will add to the deficit based SOLELY on this item.

The CBO can only score what's in the bill, not what SHOULD be in the bill but isn't.

It is a lie.

When there is no bill to score, How can they make these random assumptions,of savings? I for one am tired of the smoke and mirrors of Washington,D.C. and these politicans. It would take maybe 5-10 pages to reform health care insurance,not 2,700 pages of crap loaded into this bill. Everyone of these politicans need to be replaced. Mark Twain said it best," Politicans are like diapers and need to be changed frequently for the same reasons".