Hey Gramps! Curious....why do all you liberals equate disagreeing with you with fear? Get it....those that disagree with this garbage realize what it is and DON'T LIKE GETTING SADDLED WITH THE BILL! The well is drying up supporting all the illegals and lazies. Time to get it and have people learn to SUPPORT themselves....a concept Americans seem to have forgotten. Bama wants us like all the third world countries apparently.

There's very little to disagree with when looking at any Republican proposal because there isn't one....or any. The Republicans destroyed an ability to counter-attack the democrats when they started flapping their lips a year ago and offered nothing but bigotry and vindictive opposition. Greed and the self-centered Republican representatives have spoken some of their final words. This party is so fractured that the various factions will have no voting group or any type of clout this voting year or in 2012.

It will be refreshing to see more happiness and positive action from a unified Democratic party. The Nation will be much better for it. A stronger backbone and purpose is an excellent development for the Democrats and a nightmare for the Republicans.

"[Douglas] should remember that he took us by surprise -- astounded us by this measure," responded Lincoln. "We were thunderstruck and stunned, and we reeled and fell in utter confusion. But we rose, each fighting, grasping whatever he could first reach -- a scythe, a pitchfork, a chopping-ax, or a butcher's cleaver. We struck in the direction of the sound, and we were rapidly closing in upon him. He must not think to divert us from our purpose by showing us that our drill, our dress, and our weapons are not entirely perfect and uniform. When the storm shall be past he shall find us still Americans, no less devoted to the continued union and prosperity of the country than heretofore."

In other words, rallying a fractious party of equality against a united party of oppression was difficult, but, in the end, good for the country.

Today's GOP, in its unbending commitment to upholding a broken status quo, differs from the Southern Party of Lincoln's day in name only.

There is no doubt that there are far too many in the Democratic Party also dedicated to maintaining the status quo -- one that benefits the few to the detriment of the many. They don't really want change either. But enough did to make history.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/health-care-post-mortem-d_b_508779.html

Title of article:

"United stand on health bill could hurt GOP"

NEW YORK TIMES - Your BIAS and OFF-BEAT journalism is showing, again!

The majority of this Nation did not want this version of Health Care Reform!

And You know it!

Not sure they Democrats have that much to cheer about- - The Republicans ( yes all) voted against this fiasco because they thought it was wrong and there was another way to go ( like doing it in parts so the good got in and the bad overpriced bankrupting parts got left out) and I hope for all our sakes the Senate really does as promised and Obama's exec order is real and not just a bone he threw to get votes as usual- that said while the Republicans stuck to what they believed was best- the Democrats showed that they are if nothing spineless or as bad more for sale then others- the Democrats are the ones that flip flopped on this those that changed their vote for a liars promise or a ride in a plane or what ever other bribery or extortion or coercion Obama and Pelosi came up with- I am sure the left is celebrating and hap[y now - question is how will they feel as time passes and they find out how badly they have been conned? To bad as with the last election we all have to pay for their being had- both parties played this mess wrong but we the AMerican citizens are the ones stuck with the result- Hope I am wrong but would not bet what little money this mess will leave me on it

Gramps... please tell us what lies? Where have you been since Obama's taking office? Have you been hiding your head in the sand? Let me spell it out for you:

First the government pretty much took over the financial industry (hell Obama even changed business rules so that bond holders now don't get their paid investment back)

Second - the auto industry. The government now owns the biggest share of private industry in that area

Third - Health Insurance (not health care). Now the government has taken control of this.

The government in a very short time has taken control of over 40% of the US Economy.

So please, tell us what lies - other than from the democratic party - have been spread? All your party has done is prey on fears and lie to the public.

Democrats equate disagreement to fear insightment for the same reason repubs think that support for our party somehow equates to drinking kool-aid (which ironically is hypocritical given the amount of ditto heads and self proclaimed hockey moms running around).

Alot of it has been lies about this bill. I am happy it passed.

Flash1,

Liberals and moderates don't equate disagreement with fear. We see the claims of death panels (that don't exist), government funded abortions (which don't exist) and providing insurance for illegal aliens (which don't exist) as pedaling fear and lies about health care reform to get your own way. The Dems won the election on a platform of reforming health care, education and developing new areas of American industry. That is what they are doing. That's how our political system works. The republicans could have played a major role in formulating health care reform, but they CHOSE not to. Mr. Frum, a conservative, pointed out in the article that the republican leadership gambled in their approach to the Obama administration's policies by opposing everything unilaterally. Now, the republican leadership loses on both a political and policy point of view. Republicans are toast come November. Dems and independents will not let the obstructionism and hate filled rhetoric of the Republican party and Tea Bag folks go unpunished, politically. The passage of HCR has energized the base. We won't sit back and allow the Party of NO and hate-filled Tea Baggers to set our country back to the stone age.

Only because the media will make it look bad for the GOP to the sheeple of this country.

That's right America eat what they feed you!!!

"Only because the media will make it look bad for the GOP to the sheeple of this country.

That's right America eat what they feed you!!!"

What a bunch of total nonsense! Sheeple? Really? LOL

Flash1: Do yourealize that all three things you talked about, Death Panels, Government Funding Abortion and Coverage for Illegals , were all in this bill from the beginning? Only because of protest from Republicans and some moderate Democrats ,was it taken out. Actually the funding for abortion is still in there,but Obama has made a promise to sign a president mandate to make it illegal,I will believe that when I see it. Also the funding for Illegals is still in there though not as great as it was before, they were forced to scale it back. One other thing ,that IS, in there still. If you now have insurance and a good job, you will have to pay a subsidy to help pay for the LAZIES who don't work , never have worked and don't ever plan on working, so they have have FREE Insurance. WAKE UP , QUIT DRINKING THE KOOL AID, you have just been screwed.

Retired,

You just repeated many of the lies we have heard from the GOP from the beginning of Obama's Presidency. There's nothing in the HCR bill that comes close to govt takeover. Since the financials are busy doing most of the same things they did to cause the financial meltdown, I don't see where the govt is controlling them. As for the auto industry, the govt isn't running it, just holding the majority ownership until they repay the taxpayer!!!

If one believes the GOP, the financial mess began on 1/21/09. It actually began in 12/07. But Bush, McCain & the GOP kept saying how great the economy was. Then the GOP ran on country first but then when they lost began their agenda to make the President fail. Never mind that this meant the country would fail also.

And the lies have continued w/ lies of death panels, pulling the plug on grandma, funding for abortion & illegals, etc. It's been the GOP's motto of, if you can't dazzle them w/ brilliance, baffle them w/ BS! Americans aren't as stupid as the GOP believes we are!!!

Gramps.......FORCED healthcare IS government takeover....there ARE panels which could decide YOUR fate.......there ARE ILLEGALS covered in the so called 32 million AND don't think that abortions will NOT be covered(just like you can't buy alcohol & cigarettes with food stamps! - yeah, that's enforced!! Right!)

Please wake from your hiding from reality AND the truth! Ignorance is no way to meander through life! As far as losing the war..........another reality check - we'll see what November holds at the polls in 2010 & 2012! Also, the bill does not start much of it's coverage until 2014! Can you say REPEAL if conservatism wins at the polls in November - 2010 & 2012! The so called war, as you describe it ain't over! There are 10 states(30 states who adopted legilation) who are going challenge the healthcare disaster in the courts! Also, our conservative brethern who STILL represent REAL Americans will challenge many of the amendments within the haealthcare disaster to make sure progressive/liberal parts of it are adjusted to reflect REAL American needs.....NOT cater to the "welfare" state.

FORCING one plan on ALL people is not CHOICE......it's TYRANNY!

sparcboy, I'm quite frankly not worried about polls at this point. People are upset now, but once the reality sets in, I do believe very strongly that will turn around. November is a long ways away - eons in politics.

There was a huge fight during the time Social Security was enacted. Same with Medicare and Medicaid. No politician in his or her right mind would dream of taking that away now. No, they aren't perfect - but I don't see droves of so-called 'conservatives' turning down their SS checks or rejecting Medicare. Of course not.

We all know who opposed those programs too.

Gary, there is no one plan being forced on anybody. Good gawd, educate yourself for a change and quit repeating verbatum everything you hear Rush Limpballs spouting.

I guess we'll see in November who the winner is. This bill is so huge and no doubt pork laden to buy the previously undecided we won't know for Years what was forced upon us. Now it's on to crap and trade and amnesty for illegals. Soon we will see the shortest tax form ever.

Line 1:How much did you make?

Line 2: Send it in.

The fact that some protesters have lowered themselves to name calling is an indication that they are smart and informed. Reality? We all know what that is.

You can always depend on MSNBC & the New York Times to be the voice box for the Democrap's...That's why their ratings are in the crapper and their crying for handouts from ObamaNation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

This is a disgusting growth of government. If you look back at our founders, they believed that fear is not a tool to hide from, but to embrace, to look at the potential what powers we give to the government. It is nothing short of American to keep the government in check, to be skeptical of its intentions, and if necessary stand up against a growing government.

Someone once told me that I lied when I said that the founders wanted a small central government. They had nothing to support their accusations. It is because they wanted the people as the government. They wanted greater state powers. The power of the federal government was to keep the states together in the union. To protect the entire body through National Security. Also to protect the rights of the people afforded to them in the Bill of Rights. It wasn't to nationalize health care, or create social security, or to collect an income tax off the people. The progressive federal government feels that they should do these things to justify their existence. The states should be in charge of each, like it was designed to do. That is why we have the Enumerations Clause within the Constitution. Being a Senator or a House Representative was built to be a part time job, not a career of interfering in the people's business. In 1877 the State powers were subjected to a possibly fatal blow. When the first liberal took the presidency. This was of course Grover Cleveland. Himself and Congress enacted the Interstate Commerce Act. This provided a loophole where much legislation was allowed to be passed and in return provided immense power to the federal government. If anything should be repealed it should start with this Act. My only concern with repealing this act would be a major blow to the Civil Rights Movement. "Whites Only" was found illegal in business that participated in interstate commerce. That is how the Civil Rights act of 1964 was held Constitutional. There would have to be cautious steps to take, so that all the progress between races, sexes and nationalities be protected.

I am not a Republican, but they will do well in November due to this. The people who are really angry at this, which includes the far Right and most of the moderate middle of the country aren't going to forget it by election time. Much like the Republicans got hammered in 2006 & 2008 for arrogance, corruption, and overreach, the Democrats are now in line for the bloodbath in November.

Gramps, regarding the take over of the health care system, several democrats, including Obama, are on record that that is exactly what their long term goals are. Barney Frank said they had to pass something to get a foot in the door.

Actually, there is already a foot in the door with Medicare. Medicare, already having trillions in unfunded liability, is being robbed of over $500 billion so the program just voted on would not appear to create any more deficit. Note that Medicare benefits were not cut, even though the money was take from it. This will create even more unfunded liability.

Reagan said in 1961: "One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project. Most people are a little reluctant to oppose anything that suggests medical care for people who possibly can’t afford it."

I take it you don't have grandchildren. Because if you do, I can't understand why you are so proud to leave their generation buried in a mountain of debt.

BJ......Why should anyone turn down their SS or Medicare Check when It's THEIR Money that they PAID into that System. SS is a Retirement Program where you let the govnm't hold onto your money until Retirement Age then they're Suppose togive it ALL Back to you. The problem with SS is there are TOOOO Many taking from the Program that didn't pay in enough or at all. Medicare is basically the same but for Health Care in Retirement. Same problem there - too many taking , not enough paying into the system. And let's not even talk about WHERE OUR CONGRESS has moved ALL those funds w/o the Public knowing or having access to. Medicaid is the Indigient System for the Uninsured which is where they should have put all these Uninsured (Only 8% - 10% of Our Whole Population) instead of starting a New Govnm't System that EVERYONE PAYS FOR regardless of Class & Income. Because of 8 - 10% of our population (illegals & people who choose NOT to buy it) the REST OF US 92% HAS TO PAY FOR THE TAX INCREASES AND PAY VIA MORE LOST INCOME.

The answer is No. It is about time that Republicans differentiated themselves from big government liberals and progressives. America is a center right country and libralism was on full display, mostly in the open, for all Americans to see. It was back room, corrupt chicago style politics with the people be damned!

The price of arrogance will be exacted at the ballot box in November.

I believe that the elections of November will prove that the American people are tired of the whores who sell their votes against the will of the majority of the people who want health care reform not a health care take over. This is about Control and Power, not your health care. The government has taken over the banking industry, Wall Street, the auto industry and now the health care industry. Don't you see a pattern here? And Gramps, if you are on Medicare, you will see just how much you will lose when this goes into play. It is logical, ration health care and kill off the elderly (remember death panels), then you can save Social Security because there will be fewer able to get back what they have paid into for decades. If you don't see what this government thinks of the elderly, remember what Reid said "the elderly will have to learn to live with the inconvenience of growing older". If you think that the federal government has the authority to "make you purchase insurance" then you won't be upset when they make you purchase a GM product instead of a Honda, or when they tell you to purchase Starkist (Pelosi owns a bunch of stock) instead of Chicken of the Sea Tuna, or how much toilet paper you can use to wipe your ass...this is just the start of the government overstepping their authority. Do we need health care reform? Yes, we do, but we do not need a government take over of the health care industry. Of course, this monstrocity will not go into effect until Obama has a chance to get re-elected. Then, your eyes will be opened. The bill is online and everyone who is posting to this space should read what is in it. There are a lot of things that have absolutely nothing to do with health care. The government has taken the student loans out of the banks...oops, all by one bank, you know the one they needed to sell in order to get the representatives vote for health care take over. Now all student loans will be paid for with your tax dollar. Of course, the purchases of Nebraska, Florida and Louisiana are unconstitutional also, because it gives them special deals that are being withheld from the rest of the states. Don't ya just love it. Also, read about the power the Commissioner (who will be appointed by Obama...probably criminal as most of his Czars are either tax evaders, radicals or communist) will have...unlimited power to fine you, imprison you, take your personal property, regulate your employer...every aspect of your life will be under their thumb. If you don't believe me, read the damn bill. So, you liberals who love the Democrats so much are going to have a rude awakening when this kicks off. But, the real importance of this bill is that the Federal Government does not have the authority to make you do a damn thing. The feds are stating they have the power under the constitution in the department of commerce...however, the commerce section of the constitution deals with state to state or across state lines, and since health insurance is purchased within the state, ( this would have been competitive instead of government run) they have no authorization. Their mandates will be stripped from the bill by the courts, and then you are going to have a heatlh reform bill that cannot be paid for. I am not sure it could be paid for in the first place because they wrote it so the CBO counted items included twice, plus the doctor fix that they are going to add in reconcilliation. It will stiffle the economy. The Constitution is very clear...those powers not specifically given to the Federal Government is reserved to the States. In other words, the Federal Government did not have the constitutional authority for this bill. So, I am glad that my state is one of the states that has the intestinal fortitude to sue. I am sure that you will see others states stand up for their rights as well.

It is about time that Republicans differentiated themselves from big government liberals and progressives

Agree 100%.

Scott Brown!

It has been called "The Game of Politics" many times, so lets look at the Pub vs Dem playbooks.

Famous quotes the Dems live by;

"Lead, follow, or get out of the way."

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism."

"Happiness and moral duty are inseparably connected."

"I think the first duty of society is justice."

"Leave nothing for tomorrow which can be done today."

"Fear not, the people may be deluded for a moment, but cannot be corrupted."

Famous quotes the Pubs live by;

"If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed."

"It is not truth that matters, but victory."

"The art of leadership... consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention."

"The great mass of people will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one."

"How fortunate for leaders that men do not think."

"Humanitarianism is the expression of stupidity and cowardice."

All of those were from men that started wars, Who they were and which wars they started is what separates the tyrants from the patriots.

Fisherman144: There's very little to disagree with when looking at any Republican proposal because there isn't one....or any. The Republicans destroyed an ability to counter-attack the democrats when they started flapping their lips a year ago and offered nothing but bigotry and vindictive opposition. Greed and the self-centered Republican representatives have spoken some of their final words. This party is so fractured that the various factions will have no voting group or any type of clout this voting year or in 2012.

It will be refreshing to see more happiness and positive action from a unified Democratic party. The Nation will be much better for it. A stronger backbone and purpose is an excellent development for the Democrats and a nightmare for the Republicans.

-----------------------------------

It's so easy for you libs to spout stupidity each time you open your mouths, isn't it? Look here and tell me no solutions were offered! C'mon, I double dare ya!

http://www.gop.gov/solutions/healthcare

Make sure you do some research, please, before you post your non-sense!

Well folks, at least the Russians, who have had plenty of experience with Marxism, understand exactly what is going on:

"It must be said, that like the breaking of a great dam, the American decent into Marxism is happening with breath taking speed, against the back drop of a passive, hapless sheeple, excuse me dear reader, I meant people."

"The final collapse has come with the election of Barack Obama. His speed in the past three months has been truly impressive. His spending and money printing has been a record setting, not just in America's short history but in the world. If this keeps up for more then another year, and there is no sign that it will not, America at best will resemble the Wiemar Republic and at worst Zimbabwe."

(Source: http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/107459-0/)

I can't believe the naivet'e and ignorance of the supporters of this bill! I just can't understand why anyone would want the government to take over such an important and complex system as health care when it can't even manage a simple cash basis retirement plan! I guess these people think the government has done such a good job with SS, medicaid and medicare, postal service and public schools. All these are done by the private sector more effectively and efficiently than government! By the way, the US government is the largest insurance provider with the coverage of medicaid and medicare and are also the largest deniers of coverage among insurers!

After the healthcare fiasco and corruption to get it passed, I will never vote for another democrat no matter how good a candidate and how poor the other candidate is. The democrats are out of control and ruining this country fast! I urge everyone to write their congressman, senator and snake obama to tell them you do not support this healthcare bill and will vote out the democrats come fall elections. Yesterday MSN did a poll if we were angry about the healthcare bill or for it. Over 67% percent of almost one million people voting are against it while only 25% support it and another 6% indicating it should not be mandated. That says it all. The American people see thru the ruses and know this is a bad bill that will not reduce healthcare insurance or costs.

You can't spin this New York Times. The PEOPLE said NO and the GOP listened to the people! Who won the election running against this healthcare bill in DEEP blue MA? Hmmm...a Republican. The people asked for health INSURANCE reform and we get this big pile of Government red tape. ALL the polls have the majority against this. So if We Said No and the GOP said no, united we make a pretty strong force in Nov!

PS... it's already happening. Stupak's challenger Dr. Dan Benishek support went through the roof overnight. He is the number 1 next Scott Brown and there will be many more We are firing ALL the Yes votes.

It's not treason to stand up to the government, it is our responsibility! It's treason for the Government to forego the WILL of the people! It is treason to steal from our children by casting them into a society that is debt ridden, while denying them the same opportunities for success we were given.

The children of the rich (Including celebrities, executives, polititians, etc) are snobs and arrogant. Why? Because they are given (Entitled) everything they want. They don't understand the value of a dollar or a hard days work. They can take, take, take without fully understanding what it means to have nothing. This health care bill is an entitlement. The people will take it and soon the costs will become meaningless. Like lemmings we will give our tax dollars to the government (As we do for Social Security, Medicare, Federal Tax, State Tax) As the value of our hard earned dollars gets taken away, we become accustomed to the theft of the government. I'm not saying State Tax isn't warranted, but I don't like Federal Tax. I like state tax. I like competition between states to become the best they can be. The federal government does need to receive income and they should through the states. The government is too big. The federal programs and budget could be wiped to nill if the states took control. The federal government couldn't always collect federal income tax. That didn't become law until Lincoln was president.

Think about it, if the states controlled income, then wars couldn't just be waged. It would have to go through the process. Through the legislature. The way it was written to be. Of course there would be a federal budget, but I believe it would be much smaller and the government would be more effective.

I haven't voted since Ross Perot, because there really hasn't been any contender to the status quo in our political system except him. If anything good has come from this, I will be voting now. It is unfortunate though, because my vote has always been one of neither party, but now I have to pick one. Unless an independent rises in the mix, I will vote republican in every race. Democrats are toast. I won't forget what has happened in this presidency, ever. This is just plain arrogance. This bill is nothing but a bunch of back door deals, like it always is. The American people should stand up and demand that any bill that passes where our politicians think it's a good idea for us, is good for all Americans, THEM INCLUDED. And the damn unions! I vote paycuts to all of congress, and 40% tax on all their benfits, and no more pensions. They should go into the same social security system and medicare system that we the people have endured for decades. This bill is total BS. Our government can't manage anything, and never has proven itself to effectively manage anything. This plan is an economic time bomb waiting to explode on our children.

What the GOP is against is the BILLIONS of kickbacks for votes the Democrats put in the bill. They are not against health care reform...

They are against the assumption that government can fix how they manage medicare/medicaid. They have the data and history behind them.

Some GOP are against the constitutionality of the bill..that WILL be tested. The States will raise the issue in the courts and it will be found to be unconstitutional (without the fixes and maybe even after the fixes).

Question - why would you vote for anything that requires fixes. Why would you vote for anything that isn't what is really wanted even by the party in power? The answer is simple. The party in power knows they will fall out of power and they have to pass something now because the People will vote them out...its pathetic...

To blatantly paint all Dems as communists is not any different than making Pubs Nazi's.

I'm well aware of the source of those quotes. If it looks ridiculous, then you may have some idea of how the whole "commie" angle appears to the educated and those cognisant of it's actual meaning.

It does not appear to me that people are learning from this process. I don't feel the passage of this bill is hurting the GOP or conservative movement at all. It may strengthen it in some ways. However, this process has served to further divide an already divided nation. When is the liberal component of our leadership going to learn that growth in government does not solve problems but compounds them? This belief is the underlying cause of division on many issues. Perhaps if people felt that the bill solved issues effectively, more from the conservative side may have supported it.

The negative effects or failings of this bill will not be felt in weeks, months or years but will be felt in the decades to come. This bill will do very little to prevent a trend that has already been occuring with healthcare in the US which is higher cost and lower quality. Passage of a bill does not cure the ills of a poor business culture but strong leadership does. Pardon me for questioning liberal reasoning after the competent way social security has been handled these past decades (don't even try blaming this on conservatism).

Sorry - conservatism has more to learn from and offer in the longer term.

I'm not super fond of the Republicans any more than I am the Democrats, but at least they had the spine to stand up for what the majority of this country were saying. Party of "No"? Names don't hurt the GOP....but their actions in this health care fiasco certainly helped them. They will be the true winners come November, because one way or another.....we will take back our country from the progressives.

Gramps, I am with you. The Republicans have painted themselves into a corner and they cannot and will not ever be able to get out of it. They have NO leadership and NO ideas that matter, it is really that simple. I can appreciate their exsperation and frustration, but America cannot wait any longer for this log jam to be broken. It is long past time to vote these folks out and get centrist from either party into office. We need results not attitude, we need statesmenship not dogma, we need real leadership that Americans can admire and respect. I predict a big shake up in conservative ranks, the public is completely fed up with these old farts and they have had it with their ridiculous and truculant attitude. The wackos on the right shouting Socialism and so forth are just further angering reasonable voters all over the country, radical calls for ending SS and Medicare just throw more fuel on the fire, the conservs are making their own bed of thorns and their going to get a chance to lie in it. And now they are going to move even further to the right as they seek out the most conservative amongst them, forgetting that it is the centrist who will actually get something done, and it is the centrist who are the most electable. Unfortunately their lack of leadership allows the most radical spokesman to step up and capture the spotlight when what they really need is an authortative spokesman with real ideas and solid principles.

Passage of the HC Bill has sealed their fate, and their behavior during the debate and especially over the weekend only shows how desperate they are. I am sure many moderate Republicans are as disgusted with their no class, low class act as I am.

well when 67% of the respondents on msnbc newsvine were against it and angry and only 27% happy with it, i would say congress screwed up big time. for the government to mandate that every person has to enter into a contract with an insurance company is unconstitutional, and for congress to treat the american people like liottle kids and say we are doing this for your good is intolerable. pelosi's attitude that they can do whatever they please is inexcuseable. and to pass something simply because it makes obamas presidency memorable is idiotic. it will be remembered as the down fall of the democratic party for some time. this is closer to the old USSR than our democratic government.

I find it hard to believe that, given the poll about whether people supported the healthcare bill or not (which showed at least 60% of those polled right here on NV were against it!) that anyone thinks the fact that Republicans voted against the measure would hurt them. I just don't see that happening.

Oh, and just wait until the tax hikes to pay for this bill go into effect--the Democrats haven't seen backlash yet.

And did you know that, according to CNBC, 89% of Americans already have some form of health coverage? This extremely outrageous bill goes to cover the other 11%. What a pricetag to be able to secure 11% of voters come November.

But, for a better perspective on it, check out this great op-ed piece by Bonnie Erbe...

"The negative effects or failings of this bill will not be felt in weeks, months or years but will be felt in the decades to come."

Totally agree with you th003. This is a time bomb of mismanagement and political corruption, which will infest our medical system like cancer.

Politicians don't understand the problem, and this has become abundantely clear over the past several weeks. It's business 101 actually. The problem is rising costs, which stem from complex regulations increasing the administrative costs, and mismanagment, and law suites. Over 30% of our healthcare costs are administrative now. In order to fix the rising costs, you have to scale back excess, and streamline operations. The government thinks just the opposite will work, by creating an enormous bureaucratic buffer between private business and the consumer. You don't expand when you're losing money, you contract and streamline. Even worse, they are forcing us to buy products we may not want or need under the penalty of law. This is a totally disgusting presidency.

Until you can convince at least part/most of the 67% (another newsvine poll) that don't like this bill the Republicans will not be hurt.
I am a registered Democrat for over 40 years and I will NOT be voting Democrat in the next election. I have told my senators and representative that also.

Once again congress passed a bill that has 2,700 pages that no one has read. Once again the old mantra of the children and the elderly need to be saved. But yes since politicians know more the the people, let's make it a law. Be you liberal or conservative, always remember the word law requires enforcement. Already the bill has provision to hire thousands of new IRS enforcers. Enforcers they state with no power. Right. I thought Bush was supposed to be the idiot. But let me guess, the republicans are fear mongering.

Liberals know their criminal politics have offended the people. Every poll has shown that Americans are angry and did not want this socialist Health Care Reform bill. The Liberal Progressives have even stooped so low so as to planting seeds during the rally at the Capitol.

Despite all the claims of profanity, spitting and insults no evidence has been presented. Don't you think someone would have stepped forward with all the surveillance they have at the Capitol with proof that any of these events actually happened? Yet all it is is hearsay from civil rights activists who had less than stellar records during their civil rights protest days.

Rep. Neugebauer's outburst was "IT'S A baby killer" not "baby killer" as the corrupt Liberals want you to believe. And if Obama's record is any indicator we all know he will remove the Executive Order from Bart Stupaks Anti-Abortion legislation to appease the radical Left of the Progressives which Obama so covets. Poor Stupak, not only did he cave under the corruption of this administration he also will lose the one principle he so valiantly wanted.

The Independent Medical Advisory Boards (IMAB), which also have the protection of Harry Reids clause that no act of Congress can ever remove their control, may not be "death panels" but they certainly will have the ability to limit doctors treatment options. The "bundling" of patients health care cost will create obvious rationing of care and resultant outcomes as no medical problem is ever the same as previous ones. Further testing and treatments will obviously be available however it will be out of pocket costs to the patient above what Medicare allows. Costs have never been controlled by government programs and they will not be controlled in this massive takeover of your health care and 1/6th of our GDP.

The collapse of Medicare/Medicaid will be inevitable even under this new manipulation by the government. No solutions have been incorporated into this bill to provide the needed care by doctors and other professionals when 32 million more patients are added. 60% of those will go on the Medicaid program which already has huge deficiencies in doctors due to reimbursements BELOW Medicare rates. But this administration is not concerned with providing medical care or improving costs.

The "Doctor Fix" will be significantly higher that the $280 BILLION Dollars now quoted when the expansion occurs to provide more caretakers. This cost will drive the quoted $980 Billion well over $1.25 TRILLION cost without accounting for the need for more hospitals, emergency services and other ancillary programs.

But why should we all be concerned with this? As the minority of people who were in favor of this massive intrusion into another private sector industry will have gotten their "bread and circuses" from their loving government. This is what the American spirit has become for these people. The inability of most Americans to read between the lines of any government social program or entitlement will prove to be their loss of income and ability to pursue other necessities in life. Their utopia will be handed to them in bite size morsels as they are confused as to whether the main course will ever be served again.

Remember to fear these words, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you". Liberals will hear this for the rest of their life and somehow regard it as a benefit.

God Bless the America we once knew.

Rita: you're against progress? Love the status quo? What's wrong with Progressives - we're proud to be the party that's moving into the next millenia. Michael Steel has been wrong so many times, the fact that he said this is a good thing for Republicans must surely be taken as if spoken from the Bizzaro world, where everything is backwards. You can't put lipstick on a pig & win a beauty contest, and the words of Steele on behalf of the Republican party on this issue, their response to this political defeat, is surely as futile as barnyard cosmetics. The party that holds the WH typically loses seats during mid-terms. The Democratic party and Obama in particular were willing to lose more support to do the right thing for the American people, and I'm proud of them. In years to come, the benefits will be plentiful.

I used to run a sports league, and the one thing that sickened me was the "win at any cost" mentality - while team play, sportsmanship and a level playing field were highest in my estimation. I see the same different sets of mentalities being played out in DC, and my loyalties have to fall with the party of social justice. If you call that communism, then that's me.

Peace from a tree-hugging liberal. Have a sparkling day!

How far can a political party grow and prosper and lead on anger alone? This is the dilemma that faces the Republican Party today. But it is not apparently an issue anymore. That is the way its leadership has determined its fate for the coming years. For it will now be the party of anger.

Dana Milbank's piece in today's Washington Post reveals just how out of control its fury toward President Obama has really become.

First there are the insensate attacks on those who dare to disagree with the party's views led by the Republican Minority leader John Boehner in his final remarks last night assailing the health reform legislation. Then there are the Republicans who cheered on the hatred and ire of the Tea Bagger protesters encircling the capital from the balcony of the House of Representatives over the weekend. Then there are the Tea Baggers themselves who hurled racial and homophobic slurs at various Democratic Party legislators.

And what about the vitriol mouthed through the months without any Republican regrets by the right-wing radio hosts like Glenn Beck, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity and their cadres. All of this -- hatred, churlishness, pique, resentment, snarling, incivility -- has become the face of a political party which once reflected the sunny optimism of Ronald Reagan. Let me ask -- when was the last time a political party gained power in America on anger alone?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-schlesinger/the-party-of-anger_b_508252.html

Funny, finally Health Care Reform will be enacted into law which is Decades overdue and I called UnitedHealthcare just 10 minutes ago over denial of a cheap drug for my wife because "This drug is either not included on our covered drug list (Formulary) or included on the drug list." I'm now sending a letter to Evercare to opt out of them entirely. No more hoops and hurdles and micro-managing and fighting with this company as of 31 March, 2010.

This is the GOP's Waterloo. We poor and working Americans want Health Care Reform and we will get it this time.

Fisherman

I guess you slept through last year. There were many G.O.P. proposals, the Dems just didnt let the G.O.P. play with them. One of the reasons I quit backing the Dems. They took what the G.O.P. did, in the past, to a new level. I have no respect for either party, and twice as much discontent for the Dems for not holding true to their promise to do things different in congress.

Buffalo B, of the 64% who were unhappy with the bill, about of third of them thought it didn't GO FAR ENOUGH!

There is something for everyone to dislike in such sweeping piece of legislation!

How is the bill a United Stand on Healthcare? Who is united? If it went through with only Dem votes, how is that united? You lost me New York Times.

What this act of tyranny did in reality, was throw fuel on the fire that elected Scott Brown. You will see repeats of this in state after state come Nov...!

Gramps, go back to sleep.

Of course the Democrats will take their lumps in this year's election. They may even lose their majority, I don't think they will but it can happen. THEY had a majority and they did something! They didn't 'trianlelize' they didn't do everything to maintain their majority no matter what, no, they did something, they pushed through one of the most significant social reforms in American history! Sunday night was one of those great and rare moments in which a political group did what they needed to do. It isn't the job of a congressional representative to sit there and get reelected time and time again. They are there to do something, to take care of the national needs. This they did. There was no real option. Some Congress at some time would have had to enact this legislation, and which ever congress that would be, would lose a good number of seats in that body. That's what they had to do. The 89th Congress, that served in1965 to 66 pushed through Medicare/Medicaid, the Great Society Programs, Head Start, federal aid to education, the Job Corps, Pell Grants for College, expansion of the GI Bill, and a whole host of social reforms including the Voting Rights Act of 1965.. This act was preceded by the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The Democrats took a big beating in the 1966 election but those reforms drastically changed America for the better. Poverty was cut in half and has stayed there. Those reforms have yet to be reversed and will not ever be. Our nation is a stronger and healthier nation because of the courageous 89th Congress. This Congress may well face a similar fate but years from now, when infant mortality goes down, when 32 million Americans suddenly go to doctor's offices instead of emergency rooms for primary care, when people no longer face bankruptcy when they get a serious illness, when the average life span lengthens by years and years, when all that happens people will know that this courageous congress did the right thing. So go on, win your election, or gain seats, fine, but you will never be able to reverse the national health care legislation, it will always be with us. Just as the Republicans railed against Medicare in 1965, now they complain that Medicare will be cut. Republicans are championing the Medicare they so decried four and a half decades ago. How very strange. Not really. Forty years from now, the right wing, whatever party they take over, will promote and support this national health care legislation and complain that the opposition party plans to cut it.

PluffMudGal - Yes, too many more are taking out of SS than put in. I was called in to SS after my husband died. During the course of that interview I was stunned to find out that any EXspouse who was married to the deceased for at least 10 years can receive benefits as well. ?????????

DirtyHarriet1010 - There are a lot of us out here. I have been a registered Democrat since 1976 and they have lost my vote as well.

bob, the newvine poll only shows that most of the people who post on newsvine are conservatives and probably most of them are retired... the vast majority of the American people work for a living and have no time for this sort of thing. This poll is unscientific in that the poplulation sample is completely uncontrolled.

Dont get your hopes up. On a poll msn.com did yesterday, 68% of 711,000 people (last I checked) were angry about this bill. Angry that it will hurt us financially and that it will eventually lead to socialized, government controlled health care. Thats a statement. I have a question for you democrats about the bill. If the bill dosent cover abortions, then why does Obama have to give an executive order banning them???

bob, the newvine poll only shows that most of the people who post on newsvine are conservatives

LOLOLOLOL!! You obviously never post on news vine. You may post on something you see on msn, but you dont venture into newsvine. Otherwise you wouldnt be making that blatantly false statement.

Red Herring argument! Heathcare is really about generating more revenues for the Federal government not paying for johns Brain surgery !!!!!!

10 states line up to sue over health bill, Florida AG says
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/22/health.care.lawsuit/

Virginia attorney general to sue over health care

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/local/Virginia-attorney-general-to-sue-over-health-care-88860017.html#ixzz0ixoLWirJ

Texas to sue federal government over health care legislation
http://www.kvue.com/news/Texas-prepares-to-sue-federal-government-over-health-care-legislation-88856572.html

Bill McCollum: Florida to Sue over Health Care Reform
http://www.wusf.usf.edu/news/2010/03/22/bill_mccollum_florida_to_sue_over_health_care_reform

Wash. state AG will sue over health care bill
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9EJU8B80.htm

Alabama among states that may sue over health care bill
http://www.troymessenger.com/news/2010/mar/22/alabama-among-states-may-sue-over-health-care-bill/

12 States to File Lawsuits to 'Protect Americans' from Health Care Bill

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2815938/12_states_to_file_lawsuits_to_protect.html

This bill was only passed so congress can add another tax on your paycheck and in turn use that for a slush fund that they can repay with IOUs and in 10 or 20 years they will come back and say the healthcare fund is broke and we need to raise taxes. It has nothing to do with actually giving healthcare insurance to people who can't afford it.

MSNBC worried about how republican opposition to THIS health care deform will play with the public? A not too thinly veiled attempt to get republican congressmen to warm up to this "THING". Believe me MSNBC, the republicans are on the right side of this issue. Maybe you should turn your attention to your leftist democrat lap dogs who will go down in droves come November.

Certainly this is more of a moot point in some ways; the way things have been ALLOWED to become, what WE have allowed our nation and economy to become.... there's little chance of ever turning back.

For the sake of arguement, it's repeatedly brought up how people and Congress fought extensively about the additions of Social Security and Medicare. This is brought up because it's frequently compared to what's happening now. The same arguements can be made then as now (again, theoritcally, as turning back seems a distant memory).

Most often, people worked for a company. They worked with them for their entire working career; age X to the approx. age of 65. They recieved benefits, wages, and were able to raise families, buy homes, pay them off, and amass some degree of savings. Once retired, many recieved pensions (not only from unions, but 'union' wasn't a deragotory term then; they weren't abusive and power controlled, but separate topic...). They also recieved extended medical coverage since they PAID INTO IT their entire working career, used it ONLY when necessary, were more RESPONSIBLE for their weight, their health, etc... and lo and behold................... it DID balance out.

For those that use the SS and Medicare arguement, think of the changing times when it was passed. Corporatism was beginning to replace American Capitalism as the Illegal Federal Reserve was gaining footing. This New Government Corporatism KNEW it would be necessary to have SS and Medicare, because the sell-out of Our economy, the above example of employment were to become obsolete. It had NOTHING to do with technological advancements, a bastardized beginning of a 'new' open and free market, and EVERYTHING to do with Americans and American Businesses thriving..... but not the big money elitists and not the government wanting to become corporate.

The government didn't want to remain small and public servants, nor did the big money (international and mostly domestic) want to remain stagnated; good enough wasn't good enough.

Now, instead of public servants more or less DONATING time away from REAL careers, we have career welfare recipients, most to the tune of $200K with Porsche health care plans invested in big pharma, oil, health insurance companies, and all else; GLB allowed mega corps. to blossom, TBTF, and look it up..... BOTH Donkephants are heavily invested in all the above and more.

Without going on and on about that (those that care to know get the point); this IS the reason people were against SS and Medicare. IT DID NOT fix the problems that were starting, it didn't address the ROOT of any of what was changing; it only said, in so many words, "this is the change that's coming - you (American citizens) have no say in that; we're starting to take over business and the economy. So, it's this, or do without, because we have NO intentions of changing the course of what WE will have (again, referencing the above entities)".

Besides many, many other reasons, this is the MAIN reason so many are completely against this worthless bill. It's not only politics at their worst, not only bribery, prostitution, and done IN THE EXACT SAME fashion as so many claim to HATE about the Red team (parts likely illegally done) but it's also NOT ADDRESSING the real issues, the REASONS so many are without health care, the REASONS it's so costly.

In this way, it's very similar to the passage of SS and Medicare.

If any REALLY think that going back that far, all the 535 and Prez's that have come and gone, Blue and Red, all abominations of Donkephants, and still claim or purvey loyality to Blue or Red....... THAT is the real problem we as Americans face.

For me, this supercedes all else. Socialism and Government Corporatism vs. American Capitalism, health care rights vs. privileges, who should pay and who shouldn't and can it be forced; IMPORTANT considerations, don't misunderstand me and think I discount any of them.

However, the root cause, the REASON for this and other debates, even dating back to SS and Medicare.....are much, MUCH more important. They're the VERY reason that any of this has ever even needed to brought to light.

Joe said: "The children of the rich (Including celebrities, executives, polititians, etc) are snobs and arrogant. Why? Because they are given (Entitled) everything they want. They don't understand the value of a dollar or a hard days work. They can take, take, take without fully understanding what it means to have nothing."

So, is that why you voted for Bush? He sure knew the value of a dollar and a hard days work. Just look at the mess he left this country in!

Does anyone take the NY Times serriously anymore? Their yellow journalism triffle is so off base and out of touch. Even on the liberal conclaves home turf, msnbc, their joint poll with newsvine has HALF A MILLION people stating they are angry with the health reform bill with less than 30% in favor of the bill.

http://politics.newsvine.com/_question/2010/03/22/4048693-the-house-has-passed-an-historic-health-care-overhaul-are-you-excited-or-angry?

Pluff, you just answered your own question - people don't turn down their SS checks and Medicaid because they paid into it. I see you don't object to paying for that.

We will get back what we pay into this as well. I see you'd rather continue to pay the insurance company's premiums and not even be guaranteed they will cover your medical bills. They cut services and raise premiums and you don't mind that?

Wow. Just wow.

Also love how some postings are getting collasped because people don't agree. Tyler hates that you know.

Gramps, you know you're getting to them when they collapse your comments. You've got to love this quote from Harry Truman: "People say give'em hell, Harry! But I don't give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell."

joe mota

This poll is unscientific in that the poplulation sample is completely uncontrolled.

ROTFLMAO!!!!

This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard!!!!

So by your Progressive mentality the only good poll is one where the population sample is controlled? That is NOT a poll.

And if you want to try and claim that MSNBC, a Progressive liberal source is somehow skewed by CONSERVATIVES is idiotic. Did you just wake up from your drug induced cloud? When 70% of the people polled here on the newsvine are angry and oppose the health care bill what that should tell you is that your support of it is in the minority. It is wrong.

Liberals do not understand that if more people don't approve of something it's because it's bad. Learn to live with reality rather than utopia.

SOP on Newsvine. All of the collapsed comments so far were pro-reform. None were inflammatory or advertising. They each had as much value as most of the rest of the comments. SOP or SOS? In this case it's the same. And how many of you naysayers can honestly say things were fine the way they were?

You are a great American Gramps. That is correct. The tactics to scare people and lie and distort did not stop the passage. What all that garbage did, however, is bring out the ugliness in folk to where they failed to respect those who differed with them and in turn they lost respect for themselves with the ugly display. Passion about an issue is one thing, but when you start ripping at the very fiber of humanity, that is an entirely different story. Because of all the distortion and lies, our country has taken a step back in time...a time that many would love to forget or at least put away as the Country's dark days past. However, it has also exposed the inner feelings that have been kept guarged in order to be politically correct. Now that the Genie is out of the bag, I hope that the Genie can gain some self control before it divides this country to the point of no return. The Republicans started this and they should be ashamed. It is one thing to fight for your political belief, but to prey on the frailty of people's vuneralibility is beyond disgust. No attempt to join forces honestly and work for the people...just nasty accusations and lies to try to influence the masses. Eventually, the truth does prevail and will do so again.

Gramps if you saw someone trying to get someone else to jump off a cliff would you not say don't do it? If you heard someone convincing someone else to rob a store wouldn't you say stop don't do it? If you saw a mentally challenged person being coaxed to jump into a dry swimming pool wouldn't you say no no stop? Hear me when i say Gramps no no stop to health care and your convoluted mindset.

The way I see it Ray T. is that's just what he's been doing.

Somthing important to keep in mind is that the Dems have worked hard to portray the GOP and the party of no and for the most part it is just not true. Yes, the GOP has said no to the Dem efforts that are not bi-partisan, but what else do you expect? If the Dems expect the GOP to fall in line with the Dem agenda just because the Dems have a majority, then they are in fantasy land.

The GOP has offered to work with the Dems on a bi-partisan effort, but that is not what the Dems want, they want a Bill that is 100% Dem developed. The GOP has ideas and has offered their own Bills, but they have been 100% shut out by the Dems in Congress. So who is the party of no? It seems to me as if the Dems qualify for that title more than the GOP by their total refusal to make this a bipartisan effort.

A challenge for Dems that do not agree. Show me an instance where a Dem member of Congress has sincerely offered to make this a bipartisan effort and followed through on that offer??? Would you expect the GOP to support something that is not bi-partisan????

Nice try at a spin MSNBC / Liberals.... No, this won't hurt Republicans, because unlike so many liberals/dems (now days) we are not lazy, will remember, will vote, and will make sure you pay at the ballot box for your arrogance.

This reform is based on many assumptions that will start falling apart almost immediately:

Insurance costs will rise faster than expected to cover the new mandates, e.g. insurance for kids on parents policies until 26, no lifetime caps, etc.

Health care costs will rise faster than predicted

Government will have trouble forcing people to buy insurance or pay fines (for reference see the millions that fail to file taxes each year)

Government mismanagement will increase costs, e.g. Post office, Social Security, etc.

People will use more health care than estimated (see Mass universal health care)

Congress will fail to make the medicare cuts as required by this bill, significantly increasing its cost and effect on the budget

POTUS will make millions of illegals eligible for subsidies to purchase insurance, increasing the cost significantly

Scores of employers will lay off / not hire to get under the mandatory insurance requirements, e.g. 25 workers, 5 workers for construction, increasing the duration / severity of the recession, lowering tax roles, etc.

And on...and on...

This reform will not be fully implemented for 4 years, but you will read many times between now and then of the projected costs, going up...and up. The funny thing is I fully expect the democrats to blame it on the republicans (even though not one voted for it).

Stay tuned...it will happen

But at the same time, many provisions of the bill that go into effect this year — like curbs on insurance companies denying coverage for pre-existing conditions, or the expansion of prescription drug coverage for the elderly — are broadly popular with the public. The more contentious ones, including the mandate for the uninsured to obtain coverage, do not take effect for years.

And in a week when Democrats are celebrating the passage of a historic piece of legislation, Republicans find themselves again being portrayed as the party of no, associated with being on the losing side of an often acrid debate and failing to offer a persuasive alternative agenda.

David Frum, a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, the conservative research organization, said Republicans had tried to defeat the bill to undermine Mr. Obama politically, but in the process had given up a chance of influencing a huge bill. Mr. Frum said his party’s stance sowed doubts with the public about its ideas and leadership credentials, and ultimately failed in a way that expanded Mr. Obama’s power.

“The political imperative crowded out the policy imperative,” Mr. Frum said. “And the Republicans have now lost both.”

“Politically, I get the ‘let’s trip up the other side, make them fail’ strategy,” he said. “But what’s more important, to win extra seats or to shape the most important piece of social legislation since the 1960s? It was a go-for-all-the-marbles approach. Unless they produced an absolute failure for Mr. Obama, there wasn’t going to be any political benefit.”

It's funny all the little minds on the left who continue to spew their lies and hate, and they won again. Talk about sore winners.

It's also funny that the cowards who wrote and passed and signed this bill into law pushed nearly all the expenses and mess 3-5 years out, with most of these imbeciles no doubt planning on retiring by the time the chickens come home to roost. They all retire as millionaires with lifetime healthcare second to none, while having sold the stupid americans a bill of goods.

This monstrosity EXPANDS Medicaid, the worst of government healthcare.
This monstrosity counts on $68 - $109 BILLION in fines levied on poor people to "balance" their books.

The president lied about the process, about his administration, and his followers don't care. They only care about these things with a Republican is in office. Corruption and lies are all ok with the leftie libs as that is the only way they can get what they want.

This bill will crush small business. Some are already planning layoffs. A company in our city announced today they are moving 120 jobs to Mexico.

Yeah, good going you dirty, lying, thieving democrats. You will drown in your own filth come election day.

This is how nationalized health care was instituted in all the other countries as well. They provide a series of seemingly positive benefits while concealing the cost of those new benefits. This is known as the “honeymoon” period, but after a couple of years when the mounting debt can no longer be concealed comes the nightmare reality that manifests itself in the form of higher taxes, rationed health care, denial of services, and waiting lists.

At that time a large booming voice will be heard saying “welcome to the third world”.

P.S. None of this will affect members of congress since they’ve insured they will have their own private health care plan, not to be confused with the plan they’ve foisted upon the unwashed masses.

@Gramps u said it best. thats all they are good for, too bad thats not what the country needs right now. Negativity doesn't get anyone anywhere

Unconstitutional? i'll tell you what's unconstitutional, their animalistic and barbaric behavior

tyler, is gramps your grandpa? there are a lot worse violations on here every day, from both ends of the political spectrum.

The last time Republicans fear mongered about WMDs they lost seats. Despite claims that a so-called "majority" oppose this bill, the split was similar to the Iraq invasion at 50/50. But if you subtract the 15% who opposed this bill because it doesn't go far enough, then only 35% opposed remain.

Those who truly favor reform (not just the lip service we hear from Republicans) realize this bill is just a start. No doubt challenges will be discovered, but in time improvements will be made. And as with the mismanagement of the Iraq war, not to mention record deficit spending, Independents and then some of the Republican base will no longer support the GOP in their misguided endeavors.

Except the radical right-wing who will never learn anything. Palin could kill a baby in front of them and they'd find a way to rationalize it. There's no helping these folks. We can only be grateful they are a minority and will cause in-fighting within the GOP.

In the meantime, Republicans campaigning on yet another great lie of repeal will help energize Democrats to get out the vote. And the aggression, threats, hate and name calling is a massive turn off to sane Americans.

i think whatever the republicans did to slow reform worked.what a small little baby step obama made.well at least he kept his paymasters happy.

So hiring an additional 16,000 IRS agents to monitor if we're being good health care buying citizens is not a government takeover? The former director of the CBO stated that this program will add almost 600 billion to the deficit, as the real numbers have been hidden. Lies? Obama has been trying to sell this for a year now, and even after it's signed into law, he's still trying to sell it. Maybe because in a MSNBC pol, not Fox News, almost 70% of the public is so pissed off they can't see straight. Maybe all these people are racist and haters too. Yes, there are some good things in this bill, but don't look behind the curtain

Guess we're going to find out who's Waterloo this turns out to be. My bet is that Senator DeMint will be choking & moaning next November. Maybe he would feel better if he went for a hike on the Appalachian Trail.

The party of NO! No to Americans, No to the country THE PARTY OF NO!!!!

If you don't think there death panels go move to Canada and find out about death panels. Gramps when you get cancer up there, especially at you age, they just say get your affairs in order there is nothing we can do. As far illegals, when Obama passes the amnesty bill all the "former illegals" will be covered.

jg - Maybe the sky really is falling? And if those silly Canadians are really getting killed off by their own system,how come it has an aproval rating that's so high?

Disclaimer: I do not believe that we should be adopting the Canadian system. Or the German system or the British system or [lawdhelpus] the French system. We need an American system, but we need one that works, which the curren one does not.

IS IT GRAMPS OR GRUMPS?

If you like going against the majority of the voters, taxpayers and citizens whose will was ignored by a bunch of intimidated cowards, I suppose your some where near right but being one who is a student of history and a believer in this Republic and the Constitution I can tell you "We americans have just began to fight." So grumps if your feeling smug, feeling like you want to rub someones nose in socialistic nonsense, you might want to hold off, that change you wanted is going to be rescheduled, this congress refitted and the way this government has grown re pared.

Oh you will get your medical care but it won't be this half baked 2800 word bundle of double talk, it will be pretty straight forward and even you can recite it to me and we will both understand it. By the way it won't allow you to kill your young on my tax dime.

All you FOX tongue waggers out there, haul out that Declaration of Independence and the Bill Of Rights and see if anyone understands what they say.

Nothing new here.

The GOP sat on the bench and threw rocks. The rocks did no damage so they are...still on the bench, out of power, no alternative solutions. They expect to win on waning anger and planted fears. It wont work, and the voters are waking up to it. They have played the race card, fear card, abortion card, socialism card, birther, truther and death panel card.

The Doomsayers are getting old and ineffectual

They have no solutions. You cant win an election without solutions. As the GOP and Tea Baggers begin to blend into the same entity, the fear and hate just turns people off these days. The fringe is what the TeaBagger/GOP coalition is being framed as, and its starting to stick.

Got solutions?

post 1.2 i am so sick of hearing how the republicans didn't have a plan. i am definitely not a fan of either party, but i am sick of the garbage. take a look at the following link and you will see that they did indeed have a plan. too bad p bo is too busy checking his march madness rankings and can't do some real work.

http://gopleader.gov/UploadedFiles/Summary_of_Republican_Alternative_Health_Care_plan_Updated_11-04-09.pdf

Hey Texan.....

Were you aware that the original sponcer of the "individual mandate" was a Republican, and it is one of the MANY Republican ideas in this bill?

Now how many Republicans put aside politics and voted FOR it again?

none. i said i wasn't a fan of either party. i say kick them all out! i'm sick of the whole damn bunch!

Sorry Bali but if MORE are against than for that is EXACTLY what is going on. Every time this chit is mentioned, it is all over the news. Now Bamy, after the fact, is going to try to sugar coat it? Get real! Another thing....is the only thing dems have to say for themselves "Change" and "history"? How about doing the RIGHT thing rather than just destroying something so it fits into someone's agenda? That agenda btw is NOT the American people's.

Sorry Bali, but what is evident is that Obama has you completely brainwashed and unable to think for yourself. You neither understand History nor what is going on around you. You have drank the koolaid and believe everything these liberal politicians have told you without studying the issues.

Even a child can figure this out. Step back from your party love and look.

Why would the law of the land not be applicable to all?

Why, if this is such a good plan, does it not apply to the very individuals passing it?

Wake up and come back to reality

Bali,

You are absolutely correct. The Tea Bag folks and Republicans are in for a rude awakening (they should have woken up with the passing of HCR) when they finally realize the Republican leadership blew it big time. They are still hell bent on self-destruction rather than deciding to do their job and help fix the problems facing Americans and this country.

Retired Marine - "Why, if this is such a good plan, does it not apply to the very individuals passing it?" Exactly!

To save my soul, I cannot understand why anyone would be so spineless as to let a politician make them subject to something that the politician down right refuses to do themselves. The 'subjects' just don't get it. I guess that's where the concept of "loyal subjects" comes from?

mdionne.......those Tea Party conservatives you mention represent 74% of the American conservative belief system! YOU, my friend, are the MINORITY!

The ONLY folks not addressing the REAL issues today ARE the Liberals in Washington. JOBS are what people want to be worked on....but your party is clueless on how to create them! The Private sector is the REAL creator of jobs! Republicans are the only party awake enough to realize that. Give liberals & Democrats control of anything......well, just look at the economic climate of the top 25 cities in N. America. What do they ALL have in common? Yeah, you guessed it.....DEMOCRATIC leaders! Fix the problems??? ROFLMAO!!

Congress will be REQUIRED to use the health insurance exchanges after they are setup. Check the bill for the exact starting date. Sounds fair to me.

GaryL-749643

If you really believe that makes the Tea Bag Party the majority of Americans, I got some beach front property to sell you. Oh what a deal I have for you. Don't let the lava flow worry you, it cools of when it hits the water.

Why don't you nay sayers be real at least with yourselves. Your arguments are not about the merits of the legislation. It's about Republicans v.s. Democrat. That's how the bill passed. The argument against had no, none, zilch, nada substance.

mdionne, If you think government can run health care better than they have done with the bankrupt SS, medicare and medicaid, then I got a bridge in NY to sell you!

BB; it's been tried before in this country....with no success. I admit, the progressives never got this far before....but for a while the people were complacent. We're not sleeping anymore and freedom will reign in the end. This president and this government will go down in the history books alright....as the joke on America.

Again, I have to find it amusing that the people who complain about Obama brainwashing people, simply repeat the right wing, Republican talking points, word for word, while complaining that the Obama supporters are brainwashed.

I completely agree...the majority party gets their way on a sweeping bill....The voices of Americans who disagree with this bill have be disregarded....The DEMs have shown themselves as the party who does as they wish without regard for the opinion of American voters....Everytime people on this board bashes a REP, you bash the American who voted him/her into office...What is it today with some people assuming REPs are Anti-Christs...The days of the rich REPs are in the past, just take a look at the number of DEMs swimming in cash...Today is a sad day for America....The states are speaking up saying this decision is Un-Constitutional, which I agree with. However, the WH appears to be ignoring it...This should concern ALL AMERICANS...This vote is setting a dangerous precedent...People scream, but this is HealthCare, this is good...The ugly truth is that this approach can be exercised by the majority party and get it passed into law, withou regard for those Americans who oppose it...This is the first step toward a Socialist State...Wake up America...

People say we don't want health reform but this was Obama's main point to be elected, the majority chose health reform. (May not be perfect but it is a start)

People say health reform is too expensive but we can afford to bail out the crooks of wall street. (Who use our tax dollars to pay themself big bonuses.)

What strange priorities this country has. Is the government GOP looking out for "their" national citizens or their back door pay checks?

Wake up America

Simply explain to me how this will work better than the bankrupt system already in place in Massachusetts? You think this will work as well as Obama said it would? He himself compared his health-care reform to the post office, while private insurers are more like FedEx and UPS. Anybody here know what the post office is considering? Cutting back and cutting services to customers. That is change we can believe in!

Just two cents from an Independent, yesterday MSNBC had poll and despite what some of you are saying the poll definitely pointed out when I checked that over 740,000 thousand had vote the little poll and 68 percent were angry that this billed was passed and forced down everyones throats. I know some one who has more time said that that bill was not all about health care. Had some legislation in their about loans for college. As I have said before and even the Speaker of the house said SHE DID NOT KNOW WHAT WAS ALL IN THE BILL. Butl lets go ahead and pass it 1st. To me it is BUSINESS AS USUAL IN WASHINGTON. Just the the two STIMULUS BILLS PASSED AND NO ONE WILL SAY WHERE THE MONEY IS OR WENT.

The Dems can say since 1992 that have created Jobs but they are all Minimum wage jobs, signed NAFTA and Through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac loan Practices are the real reason this country is in the pickle it is in. But you the far left l will never admit to any of that, btw I have not voted for one of the two leading parties since 1988 because both have been corrupted by special interest groups. Also for those that say the Dems are for the working people that is a lie. In my Life time I never saw President Carter , Democratic Senator or House of Rep ever apporach any company to convince them to keep the American Citizen employeed but they sure kept those union dollars in their pockets as jobs with real teeth kept leaving along with the financial stabillity that these jobs bring.

Many of those that I know who are not working now COULD CARE LESS ABOUT THIS HEALTH CARE BILL BECASUE THAT DOES NOT PAY THE RENT!!!!! THEY WANT JOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is, of course, assuming that the Republicans could have had ANY impact on the health care reform bill. EVERY SINGLE IDEA they offered was shot down. The Dems in Congress really didn't want to hear about tax credits, HSA's or anything else that could have expanded health care without blowing up the deficit. The Dems idea of "work with us" was in fact "just go along with everything we say." You cannot really work with anyone who won't listen to a word you say. The Dems are liars if they tell you anything other than "my way or the highway" was going on in Congress.

Party of no? what a crap. I'm a Dem. and comes Nov. they can be sure I'll donate my money to the Rep. and vote for the Republican.

Sad State

with a pesamistic attitude you get pesamistic results.

Other countries have made it work. They have both, national health and private health. You saying we are not as smart as they are?

Are you saying you would rather give your money to the crooks on wall street but not help your fellow man?

If more people think like you, we stand no chance. You pay your insurance now but when you really need it sometime in the future, you may find that your insurance cancled your policy.

Where are the jobs?

Party of NO??????????? How about "the party that listened to the people that voted them into office".

Sorry, the Democrats that voted yes for this bill didn't do there jobs that they were elected to do in the first place.

Remember, we vote the politicians into office to be OUR voices. Unfortunately the Democrats didn't listen.

Wait until re-election for these people, it won't be forgotten.

The Party of "No" has cooked it's own goose.

The are a lot of activists that are trying the "face down the wild life " trick... Stand up yell and scream and be as big as you can to scare of the bear away... And the GOP fell for their noise.

But then again there are a lot of people sitting quietly by waiting for November so they can shut these activists up. They know that health care reform is the best thing for this country since Civil Rights, Medicare, and Social Security.

The secret will be a large turnout in the mid-term elections. Historically mid-term only have a 30% voter turn out at best. As a large turn-out works in the favor of democracy, the Dems need to work to get the voters out in November.

People PLEASE email or write your Governor and/or Attorney General try to get your state involved in the lawsuit against this bill. The Democrats chose to ignore what the people wanted so now lets let the legal system talk for us along with our votes in November. I am ashamed to admit that for most of my adult life I was a Democrat but now they have become a party of screw you, and I have become an independent. Unfortuately MSNbc seems to have become way too biased towards the democratic party.

United Stand on Health Bill Could Hurt Republicans

Certainly could..., or maybe not...

Bali Bob

Placing the control of health care in the hands of government bureaucrats is not compassionate. Just take a look at Medicare, Medicaid, and VA Health Care System; they're all broke, inefficiently run and will receive reduced funding under this bill.

Bureaucrats don't make decisions about health care according to personal need or preference; they ration resources according to a tax-driven social calculus.

Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, who is the brother of Obama's White House Chief of Staff, Rohm Emanuel, and who is also the Obama administration's senior adviser on health care, advocates what he refers to as a "whole life system." This is a system in which government makes treatment decisions for individuals using a statistical formula based on average "LIFE EXPECTANCY" and "SOCIAL USEFULNESS." In keeping with this, the plans that recently emerged from Congress, and which is part of this disturbingly expensive fiasco will have a Medicare board of UNELECTED SPECIALISTS whose job it would be to determine the whole life system program's TREATMENT PROTOCOL as a method of LIMITING COSTS.

In other words; if you are at or near the traditional retirement age in this country, which is about age 60 and over in case you've missed it, you are going to be forced by the Federal government to pay for something that you are not even entitled to because some government employee will have determined that you are either too old or are of no use to their society. Failure to comply will cause non participants to have to pay a fine levied on them by the IRS, and the Obama administration has plans to hire more than 16,000 new IRS agents to enforce this unconstitutional measure. And in case you know as much about the Constitution of the United States of America as our president does which could easily be printed on a grain of rice in 30 pt. upper case bold face print, which based on your writings I suspect is all you know about that subject; the Federal Government has no constitutional authority to force its citizens to buy health care insurance.

In addition, I suppose that same so called: "whole life" protocol would also apply to anyone of any age who would be determined by the same government officials not to have the Obama Administration's accepted level of "SOCIAL USEFULNESS" in accordance with this legislation. By that standard; if your 18 year old daughter has muscular dystrophy, or your 12 year old son has Down's syndrome, or if a 35 year Father of three is a quadriplegic due to a tragic accident; they should all simply "step aside" because they are not "socially useful" enough to meet our new government health standards.

It seems that a little over 75 years ago an infamous European dictator legislated something along these same lines. Are we headed down the same path?

This current presidential administration is TOTALLY OUT OF CONTROL and the general public is getting angry. A lot of people I know personally who voted for this bunch of gangsters are now saying that they are sorry they did. If you don't believe any of this; you sir have your head hopelessly stuck in the sand.

Government is not the answer, it's the problem.

God Bless America

The same people crying about the government not being able to do anything right are the same people demanding the government find them a job.

If the government sucks so bad, what difference does it make to you?

Sorry Bali,

Obama, Pelosi, Reid, and every progressive in America have all admited that the goal is a single payer system, socialized health care. The words came straight out of Obamas mouth. There is nothing that represent a single thread of honesty in you blind, partisan rant. Put the koolaid down and step away from the welfare.

Red Herring argument! Heathcare is really about generating more revenues for the Federal government not paying for johns Brain surgery !!!!!!

10 states line up to sue over health bill, Florida AG says
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/22/health.care.lawsuit/

Virginia attorney general to sue over health care

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/local/Virginia-attorney-general-to-sue-over-health-care-88860017.html#ixzz0ixoLWirJ

Texas to sue federal government over health care legislation
http://www.kvue.com/news/Texas-prepares-to-sue-federal-government-over-health-care-legislation-88856572.html

Bill McCollum: Florida to Sue over Health Care Reform
http://www.wusf.usf.edu/news/2010/03/22/bill_mccollum_florida_to_sue_over_health_care_reform

Wash. state AG will sue over health care bill
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9EJU8B80.htm

Alabama among states that may sue over health care bill
http://www.troymessenger.com/news/2010/mar/22/alabama-among-states-may-sue-over-health-care-bill/

12 States to File Lawsuits to 'Protect Americans' from Health Care Bill

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2815938/12_states_to_file_lawsuits_to_protect.html

Do you really think we can believe the NYT or idiots like you? I don't think so. This bill will go down as the most inept, corrupt in our history. The fools that voted for this disgrace whether they were suckered in (like Bart Stupid) or not should start packing. November will be here before you know it.

Al Sharpto said it best. (People who voted for o-Bama new he was a socialist and promotes a socialist agenda).

I am ashamed to be a Democrate (white) who voted for obama like a lot of my friends. Time to go Republican or Independent. The Democrats who voted for healthcare that now control student loans have turned progressive. Progressive is a disease.

Now here's a example of what lack of history and fact will do when you try to apply logic to a relative problem, to ignore these former situations for entitlement history is indicative of what a laggard who thinks that sponging will net you.

None of the present entitlements SS, medicare, or even subsidy programs will cause a program to produce, these are straight drains on the economy by way of robbing from public funds that can be used in a more useful way. If you really want to argue this point why don't you ask those who made up the rules as they went along to push this hoax on the taxpayers and voters why those in the congress are not going to be using this same plan for themselves? These frauds have just screwed you out your civil rights and liberties.

Ask them and that question alone, it might just help folks like you get their head out of their overstretched rectum.

All you FOX tongue waggers out there, the need to teach the loonies about their liberty and rights needs more emphasis.

I love how this article tries to spin just which party will be hurt by taking a stance on this issue. It goes on to make statements about how the bill is justified by the fact that SOME people like SOME PARTS of it. How ironic that many of those parts were the Republican proposals on what we should do to tackle this a step at a time (IMMEDIATE effects, not years away) without a takeover. How ironic that the left still believes things weren't in the bill that only the REPUBLICANS brought to light and forced the DEMOCRATS to REMOVE from the bill. You can't just say Republicans made false claims about something because it's not in the current bill. That is classic history rewriting there.

So basically it comes to this. I listened to my elders when I grew up and was told that if I didn't study hard, pick a career, and go to college that I'd end up living in a trailer park with no insurance and hardly any $$. Now I'm a contractor and choose to pay-as-I-go for health care. Being single I can do this and it comes out MUCH cheaper. All I have is a catastrophic plan for the big stuff. Anything under a few thousand $$ the hospital will GLADLY take monthly payments on currently. So now, disregarding the constitution, the Fed is telling me that my state has to force me to buy insurance not only for myself, but other people who DIDN'T listen when growing up???

So it's not ok to be against the "healthcare" bill now? Sorry but I'm SICK OF MY TAX $ PAYING FOR everyone else. USA doesn't have the $ to pay for 30 mil more people. Where is the $ going to come from?????

If you are broke, you don't go out and spend a trillion more dollars. It's plain and simple.

THIS WAS NO VICTORY.

I think the last few days have been the lowest point of American politics in history. The kind of corruption that just took place to get this bill passed is sickening. This is a one sided power grab like nothing this country has ever seen and how it is these people want to take control of every aspect of your life and tell you it's for your own good, "we know what's best", scares me. It scares me more that there are people out there that truly believe this is a great day for American and are willing to give up their freedoms so willingly.
So if the GOP are the one's that stand against this bill as it's written then so be it. And I will stand with them in protest. I will stand with them not only because of the devastating effects this will eventually have on our health care system and the economy but because of the corrupt nature in which it was written and passed.
I fear for our children and I fear for this country. I was a true believer that government can only mess it up so much and that I would vote for the person who would mess it up the least. After this last year of politics I truly fear for our future.

"Socialist" "Government Takeover" "Ignoring the will of the American People".

Like brainwashed automotons, opponents of Health Care reform repeat the same mantra. Over and over and over. Repetition doesn't make it more believable- it only becomes more obvious to even the most casual observer that the Beck/Limbaugh propaganda campaign has been all too effective.

They are bereft of reason, and will find themselves on the wrong side of history.

Uhhhh, did anyone you know vote for it? Nobody I know did. Therefore, forget brainwashing, to my way of thinking, it is ignoring the will of the people. Can you prove me wrong? If not, it's possible YOU'VE been brainwashed.

History is written by the winners, what does that say? It means the people who are one the "right side" of history are not always right or just, but that they rewrite it, to make themselves in a favorable light. "We were the heroes who brought medicine to all people (even when they firmly said NO THANKS)."

This healthcare bill - except the coverage of many part - is going to be popular - senior drug help, end of the "Pre-existing condition" flap.

Per a Newsweek article, "Conservatives have been hinting at a campaign to repeal the newly passed bill for weeks. But actually having to run one is their worst nightmare. They never wanted to get to this point. They know that repealing the legislation will be far more difficult than passing it was, and by now, Americans fully realize how arduous the journey to last night was. At this point, repeal is fantasy.

For starters, Republicans simply don’t have the numbers in either chamber. It’s doubtful that even Democrats who voted with them last night, would support a repeal of their president’s signature achievement. Pelosi may have allowed a few members in difficult districts to sit this one out, but she certainly wouldn’t allow them to actively undermine her. Moreover, Republicans are far short of the requisite 60 votes in the Senate.".... It will take until 2014 to work this all out, but reform has begun.

(For the old argument about our current "gov't run" insurances, Medicare/Medicaid/Tricare-VA, the HMOs rejected the old/sick/destitute/injured, and pushed them onto the current gov't run plans, so the US taxpayer can subsidize the HMO profit margin - they took only the healthy. How nice for the HMOs. There will ALWAYS be Medicaid, poor kids, indigent old folks - but the rest will pay something for coverage, even if subsidized.)

bali, Do you have a problem with repeating the truth about the bill? Best get used to it. -------------------REMEMBER in NOVEMBER !

Their is no way that the gov should be involved in banking, the auto industry, or health care! Especially this commie, slick, probably not even an American Scum-Bama!!!

I would NOT trust this commie sob Scum-Bama if he told me the sky was blue!! Look at the people whom he surrounds himself with, all of the NUT case hard ass radicals and commie's from the 60's!!! Some of them I believe Russa would even kick out!!!

WAKE UP AMERICA!!!!

Pew did a poll on the bill last week. They asked if it should become law. 48% said no and 43% said yes. They they gave a PowerPoint presentation explaining what was in the Bill and what the costs and savings were (the presentation was prepared for Congress by the CBO.) And then they asked the same people the same question again. Then it was 80% yes and 7% no. I think this clearly shows what the problem was and clearly shows what can happen to the GOP in November if they are not very, very careful. (And, ya know, that careful thing hasn't been a strong suit of the GOP, has it now?)

Republicans can't say they were shut out. McCain ran on getting rid of pre-existing conditions, dropping insurance, increasing drug coverage for the elderly. All of those ideas are in the bill.

The senate bill becomes law today, with those provisions intact. Republicans will now oppose the changes which will lead to less deficit reduction and less Americans covered. America will continue to see frivolous lawsuits being put forth by the party that is against them. American will see continue opposition in line with the party of "no".

As provision to insure children who were denied because of pre-existing conditions moves forward in the first 90 days, then you have Republicans having to explain why they want to take away that benefit, which won't wash.

America was listened to. If you look at the polls for the individual items of the bill, Americans are for them.

In the end, the line "covering everyone is socialism" doesn't work. Essentially what you are saying is some are more deserving than others. A statement that won't resonate with Americans at all.

the party of no1111

For those screaming for more jobs, this will do exactly the opposite. I am a small business owner who employs 11 employees. Under this bill I am considered a big business just over $500,000 in annual payroll and will have to pay for insurance for a staff who chose more pay rather than health insurance. I am faced with having to eliminate at least one position to pay for this mandated insurance. I wonder how many more people will lose their jobs so the small business can continue to survive.

I am all for changing how health insurance companies can do business but do not penilize the public for not having or being able to afford insurance.

This article is soooo slanted it is ridicules. The suggest heath care costs are going up after the bill because of fear. No it is the new mandates that will make heath care costs go up. This whole thing was to lower heath care costs not going to happen. People are and will be very mad about this so the united stand by the GOP will show to be smart.

hey, don't worry; this is all about, show me the Money...if No one has it, and I'm sure things will get worse..Many businesses will make great cuts, or even Close Doors; due to the expense of it all..Many, Many American's will be in despair and Bottom Line; America will be broke, somewhat like Russia..so don't worry; No Money, means a hardship exemption or low cost/ welfare services...I am saddened, America is Spiraling Downward..Polictic's in a Real Sense, has hurt/ bellied over America............

This is, of course, assuming that the Republicans could have had ANY impact on the health care reform bill. EVERY SINGLE IDEA they offered was shot down. The Dems in Congress really didn't want to hear about tax credits,....

There are 200 Republican amendments in this bill, so EVERY SINGLE IDEA was not shot down. And there are tax credits in the bill. I will be watching the vote on the reconciliation. As I understand it, the Senate has to vote on each change. It will be interesting to see if the Republicans vote 'no' on removing the cornhusker kickback and the other deals in the bill, just to maintain their vote 'no' routine. Voting 'no' on that one is a 'yes' result to keep the deals. Remember, the Senate version of the bill has been voted into law and will be effective, even if the reconciliation bill doesn't pass. Now is the time for the Republicans to step up and get some of those deals out of the bill. I hope they do.

Another terribly slanted article. This bill was pushed through without allowing debate on it through the reconciliation parlimentary procedure, which was strictly for freeing up budgetary concerns....not sweeping legislation.

I've read the bill. Do you realize it establishes 10+ committees and administrations to review what kind of medical treatment you can get? (pages 723-770 is one that is particularly disturbing)

The CBO was pressured into fabricating a number in a hurry. The cost estimate is no where near realistic. Just look at the medicare changes. The bill adds benefits to the 43 million on medicare in the way of annual physicals and a reduction in the prescription donut hole. An annual physical can be done for around $300, and in the first year the donut hole is supposed to shrink by $250 (in the form of a rebate). That a $24 Billion dollar INCREASE in spending for medicare in the first year alone.

The CBO is reducing the cost of the bill by $500 billion for reduced spending in medicare. There are more and more medicare eligibles everyday, the medicare fee for service schedule is already the lowest in medicine and they added $240 BILLION in benefit?

1. Passage of the bill should be deemed illegal due to the parlimentary procedure used to push it through

2. Charles Rangle (corruption charges) headed up the CBO and also introduced the bill. Why isn't the press asking about the accuracy of the budget for this?

3. While the bill does place limitations on insurance carriers as to profit margin, it does nothing to address the root of the problem and that is spiraling healthcare costs. The average usage among insured americans is around $4,000/year in health services. Add in the administrative costs allowed IN THE BILL and that is $416/month per person in premium. That's above the current average cost.

K-Business Owner, you say that you are just over the $500,000. mark. You say you intend to eliminate 1 position to pay for this mandate. You fail to say that eliminating that 1 position will put you UNDER the $500,000. mark and you will escape the mandate. Speaking out of both sides of your mouth ,with the assumption that everybody is too stupid to catch it, is why the republicans will take a beating in November.

So true Bali Bob. The reason conservatives repeat talking points is because they are incapable of doing their own critical thinking. As the saying goes, stupid people who continue to get information from stupid sources will remain stupid. And this is why there will always be mob mentality, which we see so clearly now.

TruePatriot - Please explain the source for the information that you and the intellectually superior use for your arguments. If your sources are so superior to everyone else's I am sure we could all benefit from knowing them. Critical thinking requires logic and data to consider, so you must have sources.

One more thing, criticizing everyone who disagrees with your perspective en masse equates to a failed argument lacking critical thinking since you must understand that your statement could not be entirely true, as no known generalization that broad can be 100% correct.

Where's the line - You insinuate too much. I never said our Country did not include individuals as smart as in other Countries. I also never stated that I did not want reform. So you assume way too much. I do want reform. I do want lower cost insurance. However, this bill did not reform insurance, it is a health-care bill. There is a vast difference between the two. What was sorely needed was for state to state competition to be opened up. Look at Wal-Mart, they provide a good product at a low price and they can sell almost anywhere. Can your insurance company do that? No. Why? Tell me why they would not be allowed to do so? And if there was a need to let them do so, why not do it? Why make this huge incalcuable bill? It doesn't make sense to me.

Flash1

Sorry Bali but if MORE are against than for that is EXACTLY what is going on. Every time this chit is mentioned, it is all over the news.

A good point is made at #1.86.

flash - Depending on the polling you are reading, the current polling is running withing 5% approve/disapprove, there is stron approval rating for most pieces of the package, and momentum is swinging toward approval. You all might not be quoting the polls so much in thenear future.

USA Today headline has current polling showing a 5% margin for "approve the new law" vs "oppose the new law"....the momentum has been moving toward HCR for some time, is now on the plus side, and is likely to increase its margin.

For those of you who think the Tea Party represents a majority of Americans, I don't expect you will be happy or accepting of that news. But you are really a 10% fringe, so although you are entitled to your views, you are going to have to learn to accept reality. Which is not the strong suit of the Klan or the John Birch Society, I know, but there it is.

Huffington Post? One of the most liberal/progressive publications in the country.

Gramps time to wake up--- it was the Democrats that said they would do it without the Republicans- then loaded anything the Right suggested with so much BC that they could not in good faith vote for it since the add ons bad out weight the good- and it is the Democrats that had to bribe and extort and blackmail their own politicians to get this through by a mere 4 votes Now they can wait and see how much of the promise, executive order and other are actually kept since this administration has a record of constantly lying to get what they want-

time will tell and so will 2010

Gramps - I'll say this without commenting on Obama's ears or Pelosi's eyelids, since that would be petty, immature and doesn't advance debate at all - it just lowers the tone to that which you claim to detest ...

This is just another situation where the White House and Democratic congress have used the power awarded to them by the voters to take money from one group of Americans (taxpayers, and their offspring for several generations) so they can give it to another group of Americans (including freeloaders, whiners, sissies and abortionists). Yes, abortionists.

The health insurance bill (it's not a "health care" bill) as passed will actually benefit about 10% of Americans. It will be neutral for about 20% and hurt the rest of us.

Criticize the tone of the debate if you will. It's immaterial. These are the people who have been elected. Some have chosen to represent their constituents and others to represent their ideology. Some will lose their jobs in November, and then the process to reform the reform will start.

That's how America works.

Uptownman: And I hope you live without healthcare too when you get sick............or are you already partaking of one of the "Socialist" programs like Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid or Unemployment Insurance...............If so, reject those large government programs.........If your grandmother is............Cancel them and pull her plug if you have any conviction.

Don't believe the Huffington Post..she is one of the liberals who is a rich elists...the rich elists are not the employers, but the ones running Washington. They have brain washed you into believeing that they care...the Democrats always paint a picture for you that is absolutely false. They use scare tactics and crisises (like global warming) to get a Cap and Trade bill so they on the top's life style stays the same, while ours at the bottom leaves us with electrical bills out the gazzua. Stop listening to the news medias, get on the internet, read the bills, do some research...and when you do, it will be an eye opening experience. The Democrats "CREATED" the H1N1 virus crisis, the global warming crisis, the health care crisis, and to be perfectly honest, they probably created the stimulus crisis. I don't care how BIG a company is, if they are dishonest and have bad business plans, let them FAIL...there is always another company whose business is in the black that will purchase the ones that fail. Check out the use of 17m of your tax stimulus dollar. It would seem that Michelle Obama's brother ( his name is Robinson) is a coach at a school and his job was going to be cut because the school was broke, so this particualar school got $17 mil in a grant. I guess her brother can keep his job now. Check it out...it is true. Dirty, dirty politics. My definition of politics --- poly means many, and tics are blood sucking insects. Enough said.

name one person that died from lack of health insurance, I'll go one better, name one illegal alien that has died for lack of health insurance in the US??? Or are you going to parade out that boy on the floor of the congress like the despicable dems did, and was investigated, yeah, his mom didn't have insurance but did spend 8 days in the hospital thanks to the tax payers, and when she was to return for more treatment she decided NOT TO, death was her choice not for lack of insurance.

Yes, the dems are really doing better than the GOP. Dem congress disapproval rating is over 75%, Nancy Bela Lugosi's approval is 11% and Harry Reid is 8%! Wow, that health care success had done wonders for them!

Nancy Pelosi is in a completely safe district and there is no chance she will be defeated. The Democrats will take their lumps but they did what they had to do. It is not the job of a congressional representative to be repeatedly reelected. They were elected to do something and they did it. The health care legislation needed to be done, some congress at some time would have had to have done it and that congress would have lost some seats.

Yes, there will be some changes come election time....all the NO_NO_NO republican incumbents will be put out of office. Instead of participating in making the health care bill better, they chose to take their crayons and go home to pout.....LOSERS

uptownman...Get real. No one is going to delight in having a return to the Bush Era of fear, threats and backroom CEO deals with GOP politicians. Forgot that Abramoff scandal did you?

The only Americans who can't manage to accept change are those who think they have all the power to force the rest of us into serfdom. Now, the serfs are in power. Live with it.

Arde,

Your argument has more holes in it than Tiger's black book.

Exactly! And, poeple like Gramps are too stupid to realize that it is he and the other senior citizens that will be thrown under the bus! Disgraceful!

wag3-1601112

It is not the job of a congressional representative to be repeatedly reelected. They were elected to do something and they did it.

You truly believe the ones elected over 3 years ago were elected to pass a health care bill? The freshmen who were just elected in the last election won't be eligible for their lifetime income and free insurance from the taxpayers for another 2 years. Believe me, it's in their best interest to survive another term. If they don't, they're gonna be on Obamacare themselves and in the unemployment line they decided to ignore helping out on.

What's your beef american vet? If you really are an american vet, you are already living off the public dime. Are you honestly trying to convince us all that the whole taking care of society is a bad thing while you are one of the ones currently being taken care of by the rest of us?

hey, don't worry; it's all about show me the Money..if Americans do not have it, then what happens..then it's a hardship exemption, and or low cost insurance or welfare..with the Health Care reform, Many, Many Businesses will make cut backs or even Close Doors..America is Spiraling Downward, near Bankrupt like Russia..the future is very, very uncertain and full of gloom..it's a shame when Politics hurt/ destroy People's lives..while they eat/ live Lavish, Americans suffer......

Gramps is some sort of old, crotchetty fool that believes everything Zsa Zsa Huffington suirts out of her pie hole. Gramps - the American public did not want this. Obama said he was going to sit down with everyone on CSPAN and i a bi-partisan way come up with health reform. Did that happen? The only thing bi-partisan was the opposition to the plan. 34 dems voted against - no repubs. voted for. Get real Gramps.

Hey Wanda, How much did Haliburton receive under their contract? Didn't Cheny have a stake in Haliburton? I'd assume MUCH more than $17 million. Politics is all about favors... why do you think there are so many lobbyists, especially for health insurance companies.

Your absurd idea regarding the Democrats creating the H1N1 virus crisis, health-care crisis and the stimulus crisis??? Wow. More Republican talking points? Too much BC to digest in your post...

By the way, what's an elist? Is that like people on the A-List or B-List just further down some?

Right, don't believe the Huffington Post, believe what Limbaugh and the other right-wing commentators at Fox say.. they are telling us the real truth.

MarkD-939276

Right, don't believe the Huffington Post, believe what Limbaugh and the other right-wing commentators at Fox say.. they are telling us the real truth.

Mark, you're finally seeing the light. No one believes the Huffington socialist post. I'm glad you're seeing it clearly with the conservative movement.

Huffington made her money through her ex-husband who made his money through OIL. Yet, SHE had the gall to condemn the Iraq war by saying it was started because of oil. Hypocritical double standards.

The GOP is supposedly the "party of no." Hmm . . . If wanting people to control their own lives, save their money without penalty, live the American dream, raise their children as they see fit, have every right in the Constitution left intact, have their votes count, have a job, be able to keep the money they earn, etc. and those things are attacked then I guess the "party of no" isn't such a bad thing.

In the Bush era, the naysayers used fear to their advantage. They called and depicted Bush as Hitler. They condemned the war in Iraq even though they voted for it but then later said they thought they were voting for something else. They put the blame on everyone but themselves. I'll concede to the fact that Clinton pushed through financial deregulation with the help of the GOP in 1997, but HE ultimately signed that bill into law. Only when Bush got in the White House did these corrupt CEOs get discovered and prosecuted.

Just as the Democrats are standing by their principles so are the Republicans. I don't see a problem with that. The Republicans are finally showing the American people that they have spines after all and won't be pushed around anymore.

The fact that the Democrats view themselves as progressive makes me laugh. It should actually be oppressive. If having to censor yourself when you speak or act, saying Jesus offends one person, believing this country deserves what it gets because of a president's policies, having special rules when it comes to getting votes, having a "do as I say not as I do" mentality is okay, the media gives you a pass, Israel commits crimes against Palestine but Palestine only defends itself, not listening to the American people or the GOP is okay, you don't get your way so you bully people until you do, etc. then I guess you are the oppress-- I mean, progressive party.

I can hardly wait to vote these scumbag democrats out, and get rid of the stench of stupidity left by these osama obama ass kissers. What they fail to realize is this bum that's in the White House and his parasite cronies in both houses have spent more money since they took office, then all of the previous administrations dating all the way back to the father of our once great country, George Washington and his administration, and they've spent America into the Great Recession and have bankrupted the future generations to come. I don't feel bad one bit for Generation Xtra Stupids and the Generation Y as in Why were you born in the first place? because it was they're votes that enabled this bum to get into office, so I hope they're families starve and they have to live in cardboard boxes out in the street, that's the ones that don't go running home with their tails between their legs to Mommy & Daddy! At least I'll have the pleasure of watching them lose their Mc Mansions before one of osama obama's death panels deem all of the people who help build this country, and give these snotnoses a roof over their heads, paid for their schooling, and had to wipe their asses for them to old, and have us euthanized. It's just sad though , that even I as get pleasure watching these snotnoses having to claim bankruptcy and lose everything, at the same time, I'm watching MY once great country turn into a Third World Country, yes sir, We are watching the "Fall of the American Empire", thanks to these snotnoses! But, at least I also get the satisfaction in that these same snotnoses are paying my Full Social Security Disability, Full Compensation, my Medicare plans A, B & D, and my prescriptions for my Medical Marijuana that I desperately need for my extreme chronic pain that I am in 24/7. They've been paying since I retired seven years ago when I was 45, and God Willing, they'll have to pay for me for many long years of retirement!

Gramps, Republicans are lying about repeal. It's historically very improbable to have a swing that size. These poiticians just want your money. Have you noticed how they are claiming to work on repeal but need your campaign contributions to do it? They just want to save their job. But what about your job, or your hard-earned money? Do you think they really care? Save your money and demand the truth from these shysters.

XFringe - You're working yourself into quite a state there guy. Are you sure you shouldn't be taking a pill or something?

Righties are always willing to wrap themselves in the flag as they wipe themselves with the Constitution. Think that everybody unlike themselves or not in the same tax bracket should be deported. Totally willing to eat up what Limbaugh and Beck just regurgitated.

"Stupidity, hypocrisy, lies and deceit may be acceptable in Tennessee Senator, but not in the rest of America!!!!"

Funny seems to sit well with the Democrats they used it to buy the votes and can bet they will renege on most if not all they promised the spineless and greedy ones that switched their votes for pieces of silver or fear It seems more like the Democrats that think name calling is only something the other side does ( but then you just did it so they are wrong on that too) For a party that claims the other is vile and calls names the left sure seems to have a good grip on that too-- maybe time to get rid of both useless parties and elect individuals that care about the country and not just the party

Dragonchief, you and you Tea Bag friends are the ones doing the name calling and peddling hate ind disinformation, not the Democrats. Why get rid of the Democrats? They are actually starting to get things done for a change. It took a while for them to show some backbone, but they finally did. The biggest problem is getting the slow paced Senate to stop dragging their feet on the bills that already passed the House (nearly 200 of them in the past year). I can see the Senate filibuster rules changing if the Republicans in Congress fail to start working for their pay for a change. Nuclear option? Abolish the filibuster in favor of a straight 51 vote majority except for very specific types of votes? Sounds fine by me. And, yes that would hold true if the Republicans ever regain control of the Senate. Fair is fair after all.

The Dems have been Peddling "Disinformation" and "Lies" and "Fear Tactics" for the Last 3 Yrs......2 yrs of an Anti-Bush Hate Campaign ALL based on Twisted Truths into Lies and Hating Baiting Statements... "voted w/Bush 95% of the Time" if this is a Bad Thing then Scream at Your Dems Reps Too because THEY VOTED W/BUSH 95% OF THE TIME!!!!! How about the 350 Billion from the TARP that Obama & Crew STILL has or the 700 BILLION from the Stimulus .... Since they have Held onto that Money for over a Yr Now..Was it Really Needed?? OR Was Obama & Crew's "We have to pass it NOW" Urgency just Fear Tactics & Disinformation to get these Monies "Sheltered" ...which is something the Dems have Really been Good at Most of their careers.

I'm curious, how many are all for tyranny, the government takeover of all freedoms???

Only the non producers!

tea BAG friends? Hypocrisy thy name is mdionne.

mdionne

Dragonchief, you and you Tea Bag friends are the ones doing the name calling and peddling hate ind disinformation, not the Democrats.

Do you even READ the posts on newsvine? I do thank you for refraining from name calling the Tea Party members with that scrotum derivative name the Dems keep using in all their name calling like "party of NO", "teabaggers", etc.

What a lot of liberals cannot seem to get past is that NOT EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES with government takeover of Health Care in this country is, in fact, a teabagger. Many of us are just fiscal conservatives who can clearly see the distortions, the half-baked misconceptions, and all the assumptions that underlie FAVORABLE COST projections for this monstrosity.

Sorry, "progressives" , but the numbers just don't crunch. Of course, not much about this bill makes any sense other than Barack Obama's campaign comment:

"We are going to redistribute the wealth".

They called themselves teabaggers until they found out it had another meaning. The republican party has said NO to everything, and McConnell said they would not vote for any dem legislation (hoping to make dems unable to govern). Republicans are digging their own graves, some just don't know it yet. Since republicans are the masters of negative labeling, I guess it has come full circle back on them.

And why is Gramps first post collapsed?

I can't take credit for the phrase but I still love it. "Tea parties are for little girls"

I wear my moniker proudly. I take your childish insults and wear them as badges of honor, because that is what all of you are...children needing to be taken care of by Momma Gov.

I see the koolaid drinkers and dittoheads are out this morning. you people are what's wrong with this country. all you do is bitch and moan and point fingers at each other and call names, and yes, mdionne, dems do it all the time too.

we need a viable 3rd party to break the stranglehold the dems and reps have on washington. both parties are worthless and owned by special interests.

Everytime I hear the word "socialism" I am getting madder! These Corporations have us by the "testicles" and are ready to jump off the table! Gov't/Corporation is FASCISM! Throw the moneychangers out of the temple!

I'm afraid the only greed, hypocrisy and lies are pouring out of Presiden Obama and the congressional Democrats mouths.

Huge payoffs to the insurance industries, pharmaceuticals and unions by jacking up taxes on people with insurance and multiple other tax programs by adding 32 million people to their roles.

Hypocrisy in that Republicans offered more moderate plans during the Bush administration where some were passed with bipartisan support like tax free health savings accounts. But other more important legislation like tort reform were blocked by the dems supporting their special interest trial lawyers.

Lies? "The Republicans are the party of No" LIE - there's a terrific house bill on the floor with bipartisan support written by doctors in congress that would help reduce costs. It was largely ignored. Here they are

Just for the record, in case you want to check them out, these are the bills proposed, so far, by Price and his allies in the House: H.R. 77; H.R. 109; H.R. 198; H.R. 270; H.R. 321; H.R. 464; H.R. 502; H.R. 544; H.R. 917; H.R. 1086; H.R. 1118; H.R. 1441; H.R. 1458; H.R. 1468; H.R. 1658; H.R. 1891; H.R. 2520; H.R. 2607; H.R. 2692; H.R. 2784; H.R. 2785; H.R. 2786; H.R. 2787; H.R. 3141; H.R. 3217; H.R. 3218; H.R. 3356; H.R. 3372; H.R. 3400; H.R. 3438; H.R. 3454; and H.R. 3478

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/Democrats-stifle-Republican-health-care-plans-8224780-58644807.html#ixzz0j0wekkZm
Unfortunately the MSM essentially covered them up to help the Democrats. Obama said illegal immigrants would not be covered. LIE! Several amendments to require citizenship to get healthcare were defeated by Democrats. Not emergency care.... healtcare plans like Medicaid.
I think the biggest lies were exposed long ago and only reported yesterday in the New York Times. The bill will not lower the deficit. Democrats submitted "fairy tales" to the CBO in order to get the numbers they want.

Could this really be true? How can the budget office give a green light to a bill that commits the federal government to spending nearly $1 trillion more over the next 10 years?

The answer, unfortunately, is that the budget office is required to take written legislation at face value and not second-guess the plausibility of what it is handed. So fantasy in, fantasy out

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/opinion/21holtz-eakin.html

The Conservatives have awakened to the folly of the do nothing Republicans. We voted them out. Now its time for good liberals to dump the lieing progressives who will ruin our nation under the weight of unsustainable spending.

There are honest democrats and republicans out there. Let's elect some. I live in Washington with some very good Republicans and some good democrats. But right now the goofball democrats are running the show. It's the people's fault. We listen to sensationalized rhetoric and follow along like lemmings.

It's time for us to wake up before our county is financially ruined and freedom of the people has been stripped away. Large portions of car companies (GM and Chrysler), banks, healthcare all have been taken over by the government. Anyone who has actually worked with the government should be very afraid!

The sooner you wake up and realize that Daddy Corporate America is taking care of and controlling Mama Gov the sooner we can unite to make things better.

Hear! Hear!

70% of the population DID NOT WANT this crap. The best thing REAL Americans can do is never elect or reelect these socialists from the Ivy schools and do listen to the commonsense folks like Sen Alexander. The eastern lliberals are the ones that got us in the mess we are in. And, if you want to find stupidity, look in CA, NY, and the crooks will be in Chicago.

American vet huh? probably a cook!

SeattleDad 1111592,

Your post is the best of all today ! Thanks for putting some substance out here !

The only thing worse than winning ugly is losing uglier.

Gramps - This reform bill should not be talked about in terms of winning and losing and ugly or beautiful has even less to do with it. Discussions should be about whether it is or is not in the interests of most of the American people.

Maybe I've missed something, but this bill does little of nothing which will meaningfully contain medical costs, which currently amount to 16% of our GNP. In Massachusetts, where a similar mandate for universal coverage was passed several years ago, health care costs have continued to rise at about 8% per year.

Why would you or anybody else think the national health care industry will react differently?

Simply put, if we cannot control the costs then we will eventually be forced to cut care; at some point the expenditures will become unsustainable.

Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and others may be slapping each other on the back over this victory, but come November, it may prove to be a Pyrrhic one. If Massachusetts chose to send an unknown Republican in place of an established Liberal Democrat to fill Ted Kennedy's seat in the Senate, imagine what the country will do.

Obama has failed the American people by arrogance and by sheer deafness. He is----

WTB----Worse Than Bush!

Nothing and nobody could be worse than George W. Bush. If a simple-minded, drug-addled teenager wandered into the oval office he could not have done more harm than George W. Bush did in his 8 years in office.

I wonder if Gramps has ever looked at other countries with socialized medicine. THe One-Size fits all doesn't work for everyone, which is why people some to the US to get some major procedures. Honestly I hope that bill will hopefully be repealled, because every single poll from Rassmussed to NBC has been the majority don't like it.

Gramps.. you want to talk about ugly losers. The democratic party has been trying to get this health insurance reform for over 50 years. Every time the people said NO. Yet like a child throwing a temper tantrum... they didn't get their way so they keep bringing it back.

And this time, the few in office voted against the wishes of the majority of people simply because they had a majority of liberals in office at the time. That does not reflect the will of the people.

And to get it... you had Obama Reid and Pelosi using underhanded bribes, kickbacks and arm twisting because they couldn't get the votes. yeah, lets talk about ugly.....

Gramps - "teabaggers" is an insulting term referring to a deviant sexual act. You criticize the tone of the debate while insinuating that your political opposition engages in unnatural sexual practices. Is that how you try to claim the moral high ground? You, apparently, are no better than the racists and bigots you claim to oppose.

Hope those Teapartyers never get sick and have good health insurance when they do.............Oh yeah, tea and honey is what I always heard cured cancer.........good luck

I wonder if Gramps has ever looked at other countries with socialized medicine. THe One-Size fits all doesn't work for everyone, which is why people some to the US to get some major procedures. Honestly I hope that bill will hopefully be repealled, because every single poll from Rassmussed to NBC has been the majority don't like it.

Actually it does work -Denmark - Canada - UK - the emphasis goes from health care to healthy lifestyle changes.

aw packer fan, are you insulted? Too bad.

"teabagger" is nothing when you compare that with some of the rotten terms used to describe democrats.

Deal with it.

Teabaggers named themselves. They only chose to try to change their name after the true definition was pointed out to them. I didn't give them the name, they did!!!

Mike - Then why are most of them trying to phase in a system more like ours? The costs are unsustainable. They pay around 70% in income and value added taxes. Why would you wish this on your countrymen and women? Many are living from payday to payday now. Do you even stop to think about all of the people who will go bankrupt because of this mess? How many small businesses will go under because they cannot afford the additional taxes/fees? Caterpillar has already said that this bill will cost them an additional $100 million in the first year alone. That means that layoffs will happen - a lot of them. How many companies will be forced overseas because of this?

Dman,

The Public Option will come up separately for consideration later this year. Passing the Public Option would help with cost containment. The part of the biil that provides for modernizing medical records and computerizing medical paperwork will also help since doctors will be able to access patient history info quickly to reduce redundant tests and procedures. Promoting greater communication between primary care physicians and specialists by creating team based care will also reduce wasted time and money.

Tammy,

Your comments don't square with whats available about health care costs world wide. We pay significantly more for healthcare than any other modern, western country right now. How is that sustainable? It's not.

Brutaltruth: Come on "Worse than Bush"??? OK lets waterboard those Democrats and bomb yet another country that might have weapons of mass destruction................Like Israel that keeps stirring up the Palestinians??

I wonder if Gramps has ever looked at other countries with socialized medicine. THe One-Size fits all doesn't work for everyone, which is why people some to the US to get some major procedures.

France, Germany, Britain, etc. None of them represent the health care paradise. But each of those countries do cover all of their people and spend a good deal less money doing it. For those who dislike (hate, despise, or abhor) the current health care bill about to be signed by the President, I agree with you; it won't fix the problem

But... anybody who doesn't see a problem with our nation's health care system must be independently wealthy. We currently spend 16% of our nation's GNP on health care and cover about 70% of our people. The annual inflation rate of medical costs and premiums is in far greater than that of prices in general and has been for many years. That can only mean that an even greater percentage of our GNP will be spent in the future and that even fewer people will be covered.

So what is the fix?

Tort reform? Like putting a bandaid on a severed artery or giving an asperin to a cancer patient.

Increased competition by health insurance companies? How will that slow the advance of medical costs?

I see only two alternatives: 1)either going to a single-payer system such as one sees in Europe and Canada or 2) returning to the old, health insurance model, where very little of your daily, routine medical care was prepaid through your premiums and coverage was for catastrophic events, such as long term illness or serious injury.

Calling people tea baggers, demicoms and repugnants won't solve anything. The current system is unsustainable. At some point this nation will have to make a decision.

Passing the Public Option would help with cost containment.

mdione - I do not agree. The list of measures you give, such as modern record keeping will not address the core issue. And there is a cost with modernizing record systems, which is not small.

Promoting greater communication between primary care physicians and specialists by creating team based care will also reduce wasted time and money.

What mechanism is going to foster greater cooperation tomorrow? These palliatives you list sound great but are very light on detail. To me, it smacks of an other massive administrative headache, all financed at public expense.

Wrong Gramps. "Teabagger" is a derogatory term. But you obviously don't care.

Just understand that if you keep using the term, you'll only continue to insult your opponents rather than turning their hearts and minds to your brilliantly insightful positions on all things political.

Aside to BJ (ironici name, given the topic) - no, I'm not personally insulted. I don't really care. It's just that name calling (and that's exactly what it is) does not advance debate, does not resolve issues and typically is the last resort of someone who is not able to articulate a rational argument.

At the end of the year, Teabagger found itself on the New Oxford American Dictionary's 2009 Word of the Year Finalist List.

teabagger - a person who protests President Obama's tax policies and stimulus package, often through local demonstrations known as "Tea Party" protests (in allusion to the Boston Tea Party of 1773

It's like a knife stabbing right into the middle of my junk.

But we will not take this standing up. This year, real Teabaggers will fight to take our name back. We are and have always been the real Teabaggers. Our act has never been about taxes or presidents. It's about putting your balls in someone's mouth and nothing else.

http://stopallmonsters.blogspot.com/2010/01/time-to-take-back-teabagging.html

Gramps,

The Dems were not fighting the Repubs on this health reform bill, they were fighting each other. They did not need the Repubs to pass it. They bought just enough votes to squeak it by.

If the American public would have voted on this bill it would have been defeated.

Making insurance companies cover all pre-exisitng conditions will eventually put them out of business, thereby setting us up for a single payer system (aka government takeover). How do you think Obama got Kucinich to change sides when he gave him a taxpayer funded ride on Air Force One? He simply explained that this was just the first step in the process of implementing a government run / single payer health care system.

Can you explain the government takeover of the education lending system?

Simple, why should the govt subsidize financial co's to make the loans when it can save $36 billion by issuing the loans? The same waste is happening w/ the Medicare advantage plans!!!

Dear Fedup: My crystal ball says that if the American people had voted on the bill itself, prior to the lies, fear, innuendo, mis-direction, smoke & mirrors of the right-wing "entertainers" on blogs & Fox news, it would have passed with a huge majority. The uber-right strikes fear into the hearts of the people, then says: "look, they're afraid!". Propaganda did a very ugly thing to people over this issue. The Republicans knew that the longer they dragged their feet on working on the bill, the longer they'd have to whip up a mob with lies. Well, that's the way I see it...

Peace

Gramps, that would be "Tea Partiers", as in the Boston Tea Party. Suggest you read up on the Boston Tea Party so you might have some idea of why the Constitution of this great country was written as it is, and why so many people are so angry.

Gramps...do you not realize what you're saying? "The same waste is happening w/ the Medicare advantage plans!!!"

Medicare is a government ran plan, and yes it if full of fraud and waste. So now you want the government to run Obamacare when they can't even clean up the first mess they created?

Seriously Gramps, stop and think before you type....

brutaltruth...Okay..You want all socialism to end? Start with Civil Service. You know...that wonderful socialist program that allows your red state politicians to live large on salaries that affords them healthcare they get virtually free from taxpayers who don't earn what they do?

Give it a rest. How many politicians in your state have free healthcare taxpayers are paying for? What kind of socialism do you call that?

sparc: he may have been there trying to help the Brits.

Gramps-1235375

Teabaggers may quadruple their ranks but they will lose more independents in the long run.

The only thing worse than winning ugly is losing uglier.

So you start your comments with calling people scrotum squatters and expect people to listen. Then you talk about "losing uglier" in the 2nd sentence. You're a hypocrit. Besides, this isn't even constitutional. It has a long road ahead of it. If this bill was so wonderful, it would have been done before the elections overturned the supermajority. It was put together by DEMOCRATS ONLY and was SO BAD they had to bribe their own party memebers to vote for it. How can you support that kind of behavior? Bush didn't even do something that devious.

gramps The same waste is happening w/ the Medicare advantage plans!!!

Define the waste in the Medicare Advantage Plans, I have one and it saves me considerable amounts of money that I would have had to pay under straight medicare. I pay out of pocket for a portion of the coverage which I have no problem with. My mother in law is on medicate also and she does not pay anything out of pocket for for her advantage plan. The dems cannot define what is causing waste in medicare but I can tell you it is not he advantage plans. You should pray to God that the courts overturn this piece of partisian legislation that doesn't help anyone but big government.

Cece,

I am sure you and most of the other residents of Connecticut will just love your new $100 million hospital that Sen. Dodd got.....JUST FOR YOU. As "the church lady" used to say on SNL...................."Well isn't that special" !!! The other 49 states get to pay for your pork.

Of course, I am sure you can still rationalize this legislation as good. LOL

President Bush protected us from terrorists for eight years. Good. Didn't get tough with congress (Barney Frank and Chris Dodd) and force them to clamp down on the loan institutions. He stayed quiet when democrats spewed lies.

He did much less damage to the country in 8 years than Obama and the Dems have done in just over a year. Are we respected and loved by Europe and terrorists now? I don't thinks so. How's that Hopey Changey thing working out?

President Bush protected us from terrorists for eight years

AFTER he ignored security threats and allowed the terrorists to attack america, ON HIS WATCH!

He did much less damage to the country in 8 years than Obama and the Dems have done in just over a year

TORTURE... Unjust WAR in Iraq, Deregulation, illegal Wire tapping, patriot act, shipping american jobs over seas, trickle down economics and crashing the US economy!

So much for his pledge to protect the US Constitution and bring dignity back to the oval office!!!

Heck of a job Bushy!!!!

Spacr:

Medicare is run by CMS! Medicare advantage plans are run by private insurance co's which are subsidized by the taxpayer. They also charge premiums on top of the Medicare premiums. Please research before speaking about a subject.

I am here with you!!!! We will unite and get Socialism out of our country. I have not voted since Reagan. Never believed in how our voting system is done. But now that we definitely have Socialism all of the people out here are going to stand up and fight this to the bitter end!!!! There are so many of us out here it is ridiculous. Dems can bus in as many degenerates as they want we will still out number them. Even California is tired of it and is finally speaking up. We are going to save our beautiful country and that is all there is to it. This is not another sensationalized story they think will go away and everyone will be molified and think well this isn't so painful. Americans tend to do that and that is what they are relying on. Take a good snap shot of our military. We are the BEST in the world. This and last administrations have sold us out. But we will prevail we always do.

We need to quit reading watching the rags that print crap. Put THEM all out of business. Personally FOX is where I get the REAL scoop. The rest is pure entertainment. But now I refuse to watch them. Just once in awhile check in to see what their point of view is. Still WRONG WRONG WRONG. Not sure if they get paid when we click on their story or what. But from here on out I am done with it. Go FOX/Glenn Beck!!!! only a small portion have been heard from. We are the true Warriors. Most of us are veterans and will be DAMNED if they destroy us!!!!! Yes Bush got us into bogus wars, but THIS is intolerable. To think we allow the enemies in our white house is beyond me. Good things will come out of this. All of us who thought no this could NEVER happen on our own soil are no longer asleep.

newHounder

I wonder if Gramps has ever looked at other countries with socialized medicine. THe One-Size fits all doesn't work for everyone, which is why people some to the US to get some major procedures. Honestly I hope that bill will hopefully be repealled, because every single poll from Rassmussed to NBC has been the majority don't like it.

Why do Europeans wonder why it took so long for this to happen?

A better title for this article is "United Stand on Health Bill WILL Hurt Dems in November".

David Frum, former speechwriter to President George W. Bush:

Conservatives and Republicans today suffered their most crushing legislative defeat since the 1960s.

It’s hard to exaggerate the magnitude of the disaster. Conservatives may cheer themselves that they’ll compensate for today’s expected vote with a big win in the November 2010 elections. [...]

No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the “doughnut hole” and charge seniors more for prescription drugs? How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents’ insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there – would President Obama sign such a repeal?

We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and irreversible defeat. [...]

So today’s defeat for free-market economics and Republican values is a huge win for the conservative entertainment industry. Their listeners and viewers will now be even more enraged, even more frustrated, even more disappointed in everybody except the responsibility-free talkers on television and radio. For them, it’s mission accomplished. For the cause they purport to represent, it’s Waterloo all right: ours.

The "death panel" I never believed in. The government take over of health care can be looked at in many ways. While the "public option" appears dead we can not forget nor ignore that health care will be mandatory, like it or not that is a form of government take over of your freedom and daily life. As to the Socialism aspect of the bill I refer people to this simple but correct explanation of Socialism and let them decide for themselves:

so·cial·ism

 /ˈsoʊʃəˌlɪzəm/ Show Spelled[soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Show IPA

–noun 1.
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

2.
procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.

3.(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles

My belief is that the manner in which this health care bill was voted on and sent to Obama's desk puts us at #3 in the above listed definitions. We must train ourselves to listen less to what Obama says and pay more attention to what he does as this will reveal the true nature of his agenda for The United States and it's citizens. On that line of thought, has anyone but me failed to notice that Obama has been pushing Congress to do (and give him money to do) most anything except the one thing that will fix our economy, create jobs or even a job friendly climate so businesses can grow and new business will want to come to this country? Sure and not with out purpose, Obama has pressed Congress to extend unemployment benefits. This does NOTHING to create jobs and everything to put people in a frame of mind to accept dependency on the government.

I beleive the following quote from Abe Lincoln sums up what Congress and Obama are doing wrong, you decide. I believe these words were true when POTUS Lincoln said them and are still true today!

You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away people's initiative and independence.
You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves.

......Abraham Lincoln

WAKE UP Teapartiers!! Both Republicans and Democrats are to blame!! "JOIN THE CONSTITUTION PARTY" We don't need any more of the same old same old in Washington. Neither party represents their constituants anymore! We American citizens need to stop being so apathetic and "STAND UP" and take our Country back!!! Believe me, all the Bozo's who are there now "NEED TO GO"!!!!!! Help us to have a "VIABLE" third party!

I urge everyone to find out the facts. Stop regurgitating what our supposed leaders are stating as facts. Both sides (all sides spin the truth). They don't have to live with this. They live in a priviledged world, which we work every day to supply them. Learn how the other nation's Nationalized healthcare sytems are working for their people. Here's a website I found.

http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Statistics/Performancedataandstatistics/HospitalWaitingTimesandListStatistics/CancerWaitingTimes/index.htm

The UK has had national healthcare since 1946. It is underfunded and does not have adequate facilities and qualified personell to care for their populace. Find out for youself. Yes, they (the European Union nations and Canada) all have socialized healthcare and all of them are not what their leaders promised them.

The following is quoted from the site: As a result, hospital waiting times are now the shortest since NHS records began. Being treated within 18 weeks of GP referral is a significant achievement considering that people often waited 18 months or more for an operation during the 1990s.

I urge everyone to find out the facts. Stop regurgitating what our supposed leaders are stating as facts. Both sides (all sides spin the truth). They don't have to live with this. They live in a priviledged world, which we work every day to supply them. Learn how the other nations Nationalized healthcare sytems are working for their people. Here's a website I found.

This is one of the national healthcare sites in the UK. The Uk has had socialized healthcare since 1946. I think every nation in the Euopean Union and Canada has socialized healthcare. Check them out, they all have info available. Just consider the source. The following quote is from the UK site.

"This is a significant achievement considering that people often waited 18 months or more for an operation during the 1990's."

http://www.nhs.uk/choiceintheNHS/Rightsandpledges/Waitingtimes/Pages/Guide%20to%20waiting%20times.aspx

Where do the Democrats get their polling numbers from the Ghetto. All I saw last Sunday were very sad people who think our country went Socialist. Here in northern Colorado most people are very pissed off at Betsy Markey she is definitely toast in November 2010 enjoy it while you can Obama because you "WILL" be a lame duck president very soon.

P.S. Colorado is also suing the Federal Government over this monstrosity

The Tea Party is nothing more than a bunch of Republicans who gave themselves another name. Yawn. The GOP has not had a good idea in years. What did they contribute to the Health Care debate or bill? Nothing.

For those that are comparing the European health care plans. They have less than 20% the population of the US. With a smaller base it should be handled better. But the facts are, they have exceptionally long waits for elective procedures. That is not cosmetic procedures, they are waiting months and months for things like carpel tunnel, joint replacements, sinus operations. Diagnostic procedures are also delayed, somtimes resulting in the death of the patient. I leved in the UK for awhile. Most people who can afford it have private insurance because NHS does not help.

Brutaltruth

Will it be like the beating Obama gave John Mccain?

Gramps...I misread...I stand corrected.

However, the concept that government can't run anything without waste and fraud still stands.

For once, I agree with the NYT. Among brain-washed New York Times readers, a united stance against the outrageous, destructive healthcare bill will hurt Republicans. We hold these truths self evident. Even among 750,000 msnbc viewers, the bill is opposed by 67% while 25% favor it.

It's good to see that the NYT is in lockstep with our socialist leaders.

This health care bill will bankrupt the country. Of course the ideals and individual provisions are universally popular! We want it all, we want the best, we want everybody covered, we want the best cures and drugs that medicine can offer, we want an end to denials of pre-existing conditions, of course we do! And this is what the government is offering, just sign on the dotted line! Then time and reality catches up - it's time to pay the bill. You wanted that too-big house? That new hybrid car? And now you can't pay the bill? (anybody see the movie Repo Men?) In time you find that there is no more money from China to make the payments, and that nasty repo man cometh - to take away the health care promises/quality we thought would last forever. But if you don't buy any of this, at least consider the states who have tried this --- Hawaii (repealed), Massachusetts (billions over budget and rollback of enrollment) AND higher premiums, Tennessee (Tenncare), there were a couple of other states too. And all states face challenges of not being able to meet their budgets even as the Medicaid enrollment grows. There is a better way! But it's not found in the current bill that was signed (and being challenged).

And with all due respect to the progressive democrats, the president, MSM - you again assume that Americans will forget or aren't looking at the BIG picture. We know it takes time to feel the full impact of this bill, purely political and partisan achieved through bribes and threats. Don't assume too much. We will remember in November!

You & the GOP are in for a rude awakening come November!!!!

Gramps, I'd bet you $100 that you're wrong, but your hundred dollars was probably mine to begin with. I'm glad I work so hard to pay for you and your progressive friends.

Gramps... you are obviously blinded by party affiliation. It has nothing to do with the good of the country for you and your ilk... it is all about "the party"... you should have moved to the former Soviet Union rather than bringing it here.

Party affiliation and blind support is the worse thing that ever happened to the US (both sides).

Don't be so sure Gramps !!

Gramps... you are obviously blinded by party affiliation. It has nothing to do with the good of the country for you and your ilk... it is all about "the party"... you should have moved to the former Soviet Union rather than bringing it here.

Party affiliation and blind support is the worse thing that ever happened to the US (both sides).

That mentality sent this country to war that killed thousands of innocent people and cost hundreds of billions. Hypocrite.

Mike, are those the innocents that are planting IED's and shooting at us?

No - those innocents would be the civilians and our own blood.

Edit: Your obvious Ayn Rand reference points to your objection to HCF. No need to continue this discourse.

Gramps guess we will see in Nov. Just hope that is enough time for the people (legal ones that vote) to see how much of the promises are null and void- but since most of what we will start paying for now doe not do anything for 4 years will be hard to tell except if the media actually gives facts instead of platitudes and pandering to the left

Gramps, you project your blind obedience to the Democrats on too many others.

The majority of independents like myself, who sometimes vote democrat, will be doing everything we can to see that every democrat is voted out of office.

sparcboy - I love that you think you speak for the "majority of independents". You don't. I'll be working to vote as many Republicans out of office as possible. They are spineless and don't want to do anything that won't line their pockets.

So Mike, you supported Hussein and his mass graves of over a million bodies? Or did the liberal media leave that part out when explaining the war to you and just try to convince you later it was about oil or WMDs (which was the Democrats idea all the way back during Bush Sr)?

Goin...Actually, I don't have a short memory and can remember many of the republicans voting to increase the size of government and spending. Where there is anything that resembles a legitimate replacement, I will vote out every incumbent regardless of party.

And I believe the American people should do that and keep doing it until the politicians get it through their thick greasy heads that they are there to uphold the Constitution, do what is best for the country and represent the people.

I'm a registered Democrat for over 40 years and will not be voting Democrat in the next election. I'll be voting to get rid of them.

Right you are Sam. I find it hard to believe there are that many fools in this country to keep voting in these leftwing idiots like gramps. Many people were duped by the leftwing media spin to get this disgrace of a president elected. It will be a dummycratic slaughter come November!

So Mike, you supported Hussein and his mass graves of over a million bodies?

Well Allan, apparently you didn't care. For at least 15+ years. Seeing as what you are referring to happened that long ago. I guess it took you that long to get outraged huh? Or, as I suspect, you are one of the ones that had no clue as to what went on in Iraq over the years but you bought the 15+ year old outrage hook line and sinker and continue to quote it today because you STILL haven't a clue as to what happened or when.

I really don't care for the Dems but when I've seen the childish posturing and lies by the gop and their rightwing trolls the Dems don't seem too bad. Come Nov. though I will be looking at a third party not owned by big business.

I've been a registered independent since I was 18, and I will not be voting republican again (and I have often voted republican in the past) because they have become so skewered to the far right and they pander to the lowest common denominator as they try to whip up their base. They think people won't notice their lies and misrepresentations, but some of us see through their manipulations. I am very proud to see the dems finally come together for the good of the country and pass this historic HCR bill.

Allen, are you one of the poor souls who bought the Bush lies about Saddam and 9/11, or WMDs? Perfect example of how they manipulate certain people.

hey, by the way, does anyone know if Rush left yet?

The sad part is that the two party system is a revolving door of cr4p. People were fed up with Bush and the republicans, so they figured they wanted change. We get Obama and the democrats and we get more spending and the beginning of a healthcare bill that would still be in debate if the senate didn't lose its supermajority. The only reason we have this bill is because the democrats got scared they would lose it all and did anything they could to pass the senate bill, that no one in the house of representatives wanted in the first place. But now it is being raised up as a great victory.

People just need to realize that we can not all live to 100 and that when you get real sick it is going to cost someone a lot of money to keep you alive. No pre-existing conditions, no lifetime and no annual limits all raise the cost of insurance. The fix is that we will force people who either cannot afford or do not want insurance to buy insurance or be fined. However a $600-900 fine instead of 1200-2400 of insurance bills will seem preferable to younger people.

Higher costs + Same number of people insured = (Increased premiums or Bankrupt Insurance Co.)

Remember unlike pharma. and medical care, which have a profit margin of 10-20%, Insurance companies have profit margins of 5%. You drop their profit too far and they will just stop giving out insurance. Maybe we should look at the medical and pharma. co. that make 10-20% before you try to cut costs by going after the group with the lowest profit margin.

For once I agree with the NYT. Among brain-washed New York Times readers, a united stance against the disastrous, destructive healthcare bill will not help Republicans. I hold these truths to be self-evident. Even among 750,000 viewers of left-wing msnbc, the healthcare bill goes down 67% to 25%. Collapse this too then.

Going back a few posts to follow up on Allen's post. The libs refuse to recognize that the US military liberated 20+ MILLION people from a tyrannical dictatorship in Iraq. Instead they want to put OUR country down for political points!! Millions of people in Iraq were just able to vote for the first time!!

Libs take for granted the FREEDOM we have and are so willing to throw it away to the latest Snake Oil Salesman who can talk a good game! If you don't think we just lost freedom this past Sunday, for the FIRST time in our nations history you will now be SUBJECT to arrest and fines by the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT if you do not PURCHASE a good or service. That is not the American way, and if that is the fundamental change you were looking for, you are UNAMERICAN, there I said it and I'm not ashamed of it!!

They weren't sent there to "liberate" Iraq. There are plenty of tyrannical dictatorships all over the world, but that is not the reason we were given back in 2003 for going to war. And my son spent 15 months over there, so I happen to think we deserve HONEST reasons to start a war. Besides, it really screwed up the REAL war in Afghanistan.

Wow, Joshua! I find it difficult to believe that you argue that "Jesus is not walking behind the Republicans" as an appropriate statement to support the democrats. The democrats gain power by misleading the uneducated and the intellectual elite who can't do anything in reality and only fantasize in theory about a world where people can have everything they want and need without having to put something of their own effort into earning what they get. Democrats simply provide their constituents with enough of other people's money to keep those people beholden to them. When will the poor and disenfranchised wake up and realize that it's their own democratic party that's keeping them where they are....not the Republicans, the Christians, the whites, the rich, etc. It can't always be someone else's fault. Step up, take responsibility for your lives and make your life what you want it to be. If you're waiting on obama, pelosi or any of the other hypocrites in the government, you're going to never achieve what you seek. I will pray for you, Joshua, to see the light so that you can let go of your own hate.

Great post, chd-56932. Well said.

Why is it I get the feeling Joshua is a racist? Just because someone's skin color is white doesn't make them all black hearted KKK member nazi's.

The Republicans are pretty good at misleading the uneducated as well. While their rich elite who don't seem to want to help the poor at at all. What's funny to think about, is the Jesus comment. If Jesus were alive today, he'd be kicked to the curb by the Rebublican conservatives Christians for being a bleeding heart liberal.

steve - the rich elite are Democrats. More wealth on the left side of the aisle than the right.

And the left in the past 18 months have turned over oh, about 2 Trillion taxpayer future dollars to big Banks and Wall St, along with the auto industry.

Yeah, the Democrats are the party of the rich, fat-cat Wall St crowd.

Paul, you must not live in a Republican dominated area, where all the rich people are Republican. There is a disconnect in this country between the Rich and Poor and the rich Republicans are no different than the rich Democrats. It's the middle class that's on their own.

So you know what to do to get some of your money back from what you call the left turning over future dollars to big Banks, Wall St and auto industry. Buy those stocks and sit on them for the long haul. Stop complaining about it or otherwise you will lose out on an opportunity.

"The democrats gain power by misleading the uneducated and the intellectual elite who can't do anything in reality and only fantasize in theory about a world where people can have everything they want and need without having to put something of their own effort into earning what they get. Democrats simply provide their constituents with enough of other people's money to keep those people beholden to them. When will the poor and disenfranchised wake up and realize that it's their own democratic party that's keeping them where they are....not the Republicans, the Christians, the whites, the rich, etc. It can't always be someone else's fault. Step up, take responsibility for your lives and make your life what you want it to be."

It baffles me how you can characterize Democrats as providing constituents with other people's money etc, when it's red states that take the most federal funds out of the pool to support their poor, and blue states that provide the funds to support their needs. And amazing how we can be accused of misleading BOTH the "uneducated" AND the "intellectual elite" at the same time. Stumbling over your feet much?

And if it wasn't Jesus' plan to feed and clothe the poor, what was all that about anyway? Compassion for our neighbors, blessed are the peacemakers -- a world where everyone can get what they NEED, not simply what they want, as a basic right -- something wrong with that ideal? Clean water, healthy food, access to health care -- and contraception, just to avoid having the abortion discussion at all.

And I am so sick of that "take responsibility for your lives and make your life what you want it to be" crap. When I got to work this morning there was a woman sleeping in her car in a nook where she couldn't be seen from the roadway. When she saw me pull in, she panicked, pulled the cardboard out of the windows, put there so no one could see it was a defenseless woman in a lawless situation, and drove away. When options are dissolving under our feet, bootstraps are pretty useless.

I'll vote for compassion over greed and righteousness over self-righteousness any day of the week.

Oh by the way, the right started those Bailouts, remember Bush started it.....

I agree Onery Dem, the liberal (Secular) agenda is far more compassionate than the Conservative (Christian) one.

Is that why research shows higher per capita contributions in the conservative SOUTH and less in the blue states such as California and New York ?

You guys are compassionate allright.........as long as it is not coming out of your pocket !

Before we get started down this road, yes, the individual mandate is constitutional. For a roundup of the argument, see this Tim Noah piece. For a longer, more technical explanation, see this post by law professor Erik Hall.

The summary is that you can look at the individual mandate as a tax, which is constitutional, or as a regulation forcing private actors to engage in a certain transaction, much like the minimum wage, which is also constitutional. I've also heard scholars mention auto insurance, which is an obvious analogue, and the Americans With Disabilities Act, which proved that the government can order businesses to install ramps, despite the fact that the constitution doesn't explicitly give the federal government jurisdiction over entryways.

It's also worth noting that Massachusetts has had an individual mandate on the books for a couple of years now. Its constitutionality remains unchallenged. And back in June, Grassley himself supported an individual mandate in health care. "I believe that there is a bipartisan consensus to have individual mandates," he told Fox News. He didn't add, "and to rip up the Constitution!" His colleagues Bob Bennett, Lamar Alexander, Norm Coleman, Bob Corker, Mike Crapo, Lindsey Graham, Judd Gregg and Trent Lott have also come out in support of an individual mandate, as they all co-sponsored Ron Wyden's Healthy Americans Act, which includes one. The constitutionality of the mandate has not been in question among Republicans. But some of them are getting a bit desperate.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/11/is_the_individual_mandate_cons.html

Gramps... again please explain your rationale for how this is constitutional. The consitution does not give the power over congress to take over every aspect of your life. The constitution was to protect us from such abusive intrusion.

As for the constitution - when laws are passed, they are to be uniform throughout. This bill exempts certain few. So please explain the constitutionality of that.

Since you couldn't click the link above, I'll post it for you:

Is it unconstitutional to mandate health insurance? It seems unprecedented to require citizens to purchase insurance simply because they live in the U.S. (rather than as a condition of driving a car or owning a business, for instance). Therefore, several credentialed, conservative lawyers think that compulsory health insurance is unconstitutional. See here and here and here. Their reasoning is unconvincing and deeply flawed. Since I’m writing in part for a non-legal audience, I’ll start with some basics and provide a lay explanation. (Go here for a fuller account).

Constitutional attacks fall into two basic categories: (1) lack of federal power (Congress simply lacks any power to do this under the main body of the Constitution); and (2) violation of individual rights protected by the “Bill of Rights.” Considering (1), Congress has ample power and precedent through the Constitution’s “Commerce Clause” to regulate just about any aspect of the national economy. Health insurance is quintessentially an economic good. The only possible objection is that mandating its purchase is not the same as “regulating” its purchase, but a mandate is just a stronger form of regulation. When Congressional power exists, nothing in law says that stronger actions are less supported than weaker ones.

An insurance mandate would be enforced through income tax laws, so even if a simple mandate were not a valid “regulation,” it still could fall easily within Congress’s plenary power to tax or not tax income. For instance, anyone purchasing insurance could be given an income tax credit, and those not purchasing could be assessed an income tax penalty. The only possible constitutional restriction is an archaic provision saying that if Congress imposes anything that amounts to a “head tax” or “poll tax” (that is, taxing people simply as people rather than taxing their income), then it must do so uniformly (that is, the same amount per person). This technical restriction is easily avoided by using income tax laws. Purists complain that taxes should be proportional to actual income and should not be used mainly to regulate economic behavior, but our tax code, for better or worse, is riddled with such regulatory provisions and so they are clearly constitutional.

Arguments about federal authority deal mainly with states’ rights and sovereign power, but the real basis for opposition is motivated more by sentiments about individual rights - the notion that government should not use its recognized authority to tell people how to spend their money. This notion of economic liberty had much greater traction in a prior era, but it has little basis in modern constitutional law. Eighty years ago, the Supreme Court used the concept of “substantive due process” to protect individual economic liberties, but the Court has thoroughly and repeatedly repudiated this body of law since the 1930s. Today, even Justice Scalia regards substantive due process as an “oxymoron.”

Under both liberal and conservative jurisprudence, the Constitution protects individual autonomy strongly only when “fundamental rights” are involved. There may be fundamental rights to decide about medical treatments, but having insurance does not require anyone to undergo treatment. It only requires them to have a means to pay for any treatment they might choose to receive. The liberty in question is purely economic and has none of the strong elements of personal or bodily integrity that invoke Constitutional protection. In short, there is no fundamental right to be uninsured, and so various arguments based on the Bill of Rights fall flat. The closest plausible argument is one based on a federal statute protecting religious liberty, but Congress is Constitutionally free to override one statute with another.

If Constitutional concerns still remain, the simplest fix (ironically) would be simply to enact social insurance (as we currently do for Medicare and social security retirement) but allow people to opt out if they purchase private insurance. Politically, of course, this is not in the cards, but the fact that social insurance faces none of the alleged Constitutional infirmities of mandating private insurance points to this basic realization: Congress is on solid Constitutional ground in expanding health insurance coverage in essentially any fashion that is politically and socially feasible.

Mark Hall
Professor of Law and Public Health
Wake Forest University School of Law

http://www.healthreformwatch.com/2009/08/25/is-it-unconstitutional-to-mandate-health-insurance/

Gramps, you are not forced to buy auto insurance. It s a choice for an individual to buy the car and in some states, if you have the money, you do not have to buy the insurance. The federal government is mandating that you buy health insurance and have no choice. People like you want socialism. Al Sharpton said after the healthcare vote that this is why obama was elected, for socialism.

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2010/03/al-sharpton-oba.html

This is not what the American people voted for and want. I lazy nation, that expects others that do well to supplement people that have no initiative to do for themselves, and expect it.

This healthcare bill will create 16,500 more IRS jobs. It will cause people's premiums to go up and other people to lose their coverages. It is cheaper for the employer to pay the penalty than to pay for the premiums.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jan/28/nancy-pfotenhauer/health-care-reform-does-not-increase-premiums-and-/

15 million people will be added to the Medicaid rolls, which states can not afford now.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703399204574505423751140690.html

The democrats double count the Medicare savings. Which in essence causes the deficit to increase since they are double counting $500 billion.

http://reason.com/blog/2009/12/23/double-double-counting-medicarhttp://www.examiner.com/x-28973-Essex-County-Conservative-Examiner~y2009m12d23-CBO-suggests-Democrats-are-doublecounting-Medicare-savings

CBO states that premiums will go up for people already paying for healthcare.

http://healthcare.nationaljournal.com/2009/11/

The healthcare bill also has savings from the takeover of the student loan program.

http://edlabor.house.gov/blog/2009/07/student-aid-and-fiscal-respons.shtml

Gramps, hopefully you have your own insurance. If you are on Medicare only, someday the government is going to dictate on whether you get procedures or not. Remember this, Medicare has the highest percentage of denying claims and services. Almost 7%.

http://www.statehousecall.org/which-insurer-denies-the-most-claims

What do you think they will do when we only have the Federal government as the sole health insurance provider? This is what obama wants. Here's a video for you.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/Video-proof-Obama-wants-a-single-payer-system-52699182.html

Hope no one ever gets sick.

Gramps, you obviously didn't ready what I said - typical liberal fashion. I left out "health care"... what I mentioned is:

As for the constitution - when laws are passed, they are to be uniform throughout. This bill exempts certain few. So please explain the constitutionality of that.

That applies to ANY type of law.

I pay $250 a year in premiums if the company I worked for did not offer insurance I would choose not to carry it my resulting fine would be $1200 dollars under this bill almost 600% of my current premium. This is government takeover they are forcing this on the american public but most of you are right they have set it up so all of the benefits happen up front to sucker everybody in and in 5 years down the road is when all of the negatives take affect, they think we will forget but we wont. Also the math of this bill does not add up, you can not cut 500 billion for medicare and also expand benefits. You can not spend 900 Billion and lower the deficit. What they are not telling you is that they will increase your state and local taxes to support the infrastruture that the government is mandating each state have to avoid heavy fines. This is all bogus, the american people do not what to be like europe, we do not want socialism, we do not want big government. We already taxed for everything under the sun. We already pay heavy taxes for large vehicles, Beer, Cigs and numberous other things the government controls through prices. Tell them to stay of our lives.

RM, you obviously did not read, well maybe you did, but did not comprehend what Gramps is saying. The bill is under the IRS and the fines would qualify as a tax and therefore are Constitutional and within the rights of Congress.

That tax must be applied uniformly and there is nothing in the bill to prevent that. The exemptions from paying the insurance premium would be via tax credits, just like a standard deduction today.

Get it yet?

Justin, the 1200 penalty does not kick in until 2018, and then will be used to subsidize the hospitals so when you show up at the ER w/o insurance, it can be used to pay for YOUR care and keep MY health insurance premiums stable.

Unlike the current system.

If you chose not to get the insurance, the taxpayer would end up footing the bill if you became sick or injured & needed to be treated at an ER. So the mandate is to protect the taxpayer because you choose to gamble that you won't get sick or injured!!!

And yo know when they hire the 16,500 IRS they will turn around and brag they have created 20,000 new jobs- never mind who gets them or they are more government spending on top of what this mess will already be costing- Yep this administration is really concerned about the people - I think not to busy worrying about making history and remaking it over and over no matter what the cost to the country or the citizens

It s a choice for an individual to buy the car and in some states, if you have the money, you do not have to buy the insurance.

I disagree, mark. That may be legally true; nobody is enforced to buy auto insurance unless they own and drive a car. But for most Americans, owning a car is not a choice; it is a necessity. We work at jobs too distant from our homes to contemplate walking or bicycling and our commuting patterns are too diverse to be accommodated by any public transit system. The shops, restaurants and movie theaters we might visit also at distances requiring an automobile, or an expensive cab ride.

No, a automobile ceased to be an optional possession in America about two generations ago.

That said, I don't like the concept of compulsory health insurance. I do not believe it is unconstitutional but I am against it. Come November of this year, the democratic process may make this a moot debate.

As I understand it - the current bill will not require most businesses to provide insurance to its employees. Those small businesses with less than 50 employees will not face any penalty if they do not provide insurance. The so called tax credit will only be beneficial if the business has a large tax bill. Personally - I would have to owe corporate income tax of up to $16,800.0 to really see a benefit of the tax credit. I am sometime lucky if I see $16,000 of profit - much less what it would have to be to owe that much in tax. I see this as the situation for most small businesses with less than 50 employees. Those small businesses who do not currently provide health insurance will not be more inclined to provide insurance to its employees, but with this new "reform" all those employees will be mandated to buy insurance.

I would love health reform - but this bill ain't it.

Small businesses which is defined as less than 30 will get tax credits for providing health care insurance.

The penalties against businesses with more than 50 employees does not go into affect until 2018 4 years after the new exchanges are available.

Kyle - credit goes against taxes that are owed - that is my point - I will not owe nearly enough in taxes to take full advantage of the tax credit. I would rather be reimbursed for some of the insurance premiums that I pay for.

All small businesses (defined with those less than 50 employees) who provide health insurance will receive tax credits. Those businesses with less than 50 employees who do not provide health insurance do not receive any penalties.

Those businesses with more than 50 employees who do not provide health insurance will be penalized $ 2,000 per employee (the first 30 are exempt). So if I have 52 employees and do not provide insurance - I will have a penalty of $ 44,000. I employee 10 at my business - my premiums run about $48,000 - could you imagine what it would cost to insure 50 employees. Taking the penalty would be cheaper.

This bill really doesn't do much to help everyone to get insurance - except that those who couldn't afford it in the first place will now be mandated to buy it.

The fines can be used to offset the costs when the uninsured show up at the ER.

But it doesn't get the unisured insurance does it? I thought that was what this bill was about - insuring the uninsured.

Yes, it does in 4 years just not today.

In 4 years the employees will be able to shop the exchange for an individual plan that a poor working American can afford AND the employer pays a fine to offset the costs at the ER.

Not perfect, but a step in the right direction, I personally which the exchanges were to be set up this year, but they are not.

I just love the irony of the bleeding heart left. These fines will be levied on the very people you claim to want to help - those that do not have insurance and need it. If they cannot afford it even with subsidies, they will be fined - which will likely be less costly than the damn insurance!

So your greedy little stooges in DC have just levied a new tax on the poor, which will raise $68-$109 BILLION over 10 years according to their budget.

That doesn't seem right, constitutional, just or decent.

But keep calling the right names, it sure makes you look smart.

I just love the irony of the bleeding heart left.

Paul F. - I just love the hypocrisy of the right. In the years from 2001 through 2006, the Republicans controlled both houses of congress and the White House, and what program of fix did they devise to fix our ailing health care system? Nada, zilch, squat, nothing.

I'm not at all a fan of this recently passed bill. It was the wrong action to take. But some action is clearly necessary. Anybody who hasn't noticed our health care system is tottering on the brink of total collapse has their head so far up their butt they can see daylight through their nostrils.

Yeah, the Republicans are full of complaints about the Democrat's solution. But when they were in charge they turned a blind eye and deaf ear to the problem.

But keep calling the right names, it sure makes you look smart.

...and what are you offering except insulting phrases like "bleeding heart left"?

What is your solution?

If you watched the healthcare summit, err healtcare lecture from Obama, you would have heard numerous excellent ideas from the republicans, but were immediately quashed by Obama.

They never wanted to the right involved. They didn't need them. They have a super majority, yet still had to bribe other democrats for their votes. Saying no is a hell of a lot more honest than taking bribes.

alan - I don't give a crap about Repubs or Dems.... What I do care about is that the country I fought and bled for is being turned into a socialist state by a few idiots in office against the will of the people.

What you are lying about is that the Republicans did try to assist.. but they were shut out at every turn. This was in plain view of all of us, yet you are so party blind that all you can do is repeat party talkintg points.

Speaking of Obama bribing democrats I was in cleveland last week when Obama flew in to take out the Representative there to convince him to vote his way, Obama used nothing but itimidation to get this bill through he is just a chicago gangster.

That's news to me. I never heard anything about Republicans wanting to do anything about heath care. They seem to like the system the way it is now, like it's not broken.

Alan - you couldn't be more wrong. It is just that this bill is not really doing anything to help small businesses provide health insurance to its employees. Small businesses employ close to 50% of the American people. The tax credit - that's a joke. I personally would like to see the insurance companies regulated a little. Limit the amount you can raise premiums. I am tired of having to change companies every other year because the "pool" we were in became high risk even though myself and my employees had no real expenditures. What is in this bill that limits rate hikes - just for the sake of raising them. This bill did not address any real issues - it just guarantees that most everyone will have insurance - even if they have to buy it themselves.

No Alan, you are wrong. Many of us for many years have called for reform. The Republicans offered many amendments to this crap bill, and every single one was voted down by your open minded bi-partisan democrats.

Virtually all new net jobs in the past 10 years have come from small business. Well, other than govt jobs, but that is not a real addition, because us folks who actually work and are productive pay 100% of their cost.

More lies, more bs, from the clueless left.

The Republicans offered many amendments to this crap bill, and every single one was voted down by your open minded bi-partisan democrats

REALLY... is that why there are over 200 Republican ideas in this reform package?

HMMMMMM... more mindless political rhetoric

"Republican Values"

Ron: You need to read more and rant less.

You don't understand something therefore it MUST be wrong. You don't understand that people who cannot afford preventive medicine will show up VERY sick at an emergency ward and must be treated by law............I guess you would just kick them out without care under your plan...........sooorrry should have had a job..........sooorry your employer could not afford health care.............sooorry your employer is bankrupt. Die and reduce healthcare costs would be a good thing in your plan.

You don't appear to understand that unless everyone is insured the costs are spread among only those who are and like insurance for other things rates are governed accordingly.............so what is wrong with only getting insurance when you get sick.......AHA, you can't under current rules and even if you can under the new plan you will have to pay a penalty for not being insured and in the pool from the beginning............but at least that is YOUR choice.

Cofundus,

There are two issues here: increased access to 'healthcare', and reduced 'healthcare' costs. The point that you have missed completely is that you can have either one under the present approach, but not both. In theory, I have no problems with everyone having full access to 'healthcare'. In practice, it means that I and every other responsible taxpayer will be subsidizing the consequences from people smoking, over-drinking, over-eating, under-exercising, etc. If we do not enhance prevention as part of this new 'healthcare' plan, the country will go bankrupt! Every one of the measures designed to increase access is expensive. Don't try to sweep this under the rug, as the politicians on both sides are doing.

Col- the difference is before yes we (those that had ANY money or jobs) by choice if had insurance - under this con game the IRS will have control of your and all of our money to take when ever they feel like and still those without jobs or money will get a free ride for doing nothing INCLUDING the illegals (and you know they will get in before the legal citizens do because the left wants their votes

I may be dense - but the democrats have not explained to me how this bill is going to get paid for. Those thirty million that are uninsured probably work for a small business. There is no real incentive or penalty for those small businesses to provide insurance - the only thing that has changed is that those who didn't have insurance before (probably because they couldn't afford it) will now be mandated to buy it. I don't see how a 1.8% (.9 emloyee / .9 employer) payroll tax increase on those earning more than $200,000 is going to cover almost a trillion dollars in cost. I expect that increase in medicare tax for the very wealthy will find its way into everyones paycheck.

I agree totally. Also the fact that the government has NEVER run ANYTHING right. I am willing to bet that most small business will take the fine over paying for health insurance EVEN IN PART for their employees. Soo many small businesses are going out of business around me (New York). So, if now they have to carry their employees, how many people are going to have to be laid off to pay for the other employees? Unemployment is going up, more businesses are going out of business. I am watching Obama lie right now on tv. 'right now, people with pre existing conditions do not have to worry' DOES THIS MAN EVEN KNOW WHAT IS IN THE BILL? IT IS CHILDREN RIGHT NOW! I AM NOT COVERED UNTIL 2014.

Cofundus - Massachusetts is the only state that currently has a universal style health insurance mandate. This was supposed to help curb the use of emergency room visits and allow people to have their own doctors. Well... the reality of this plan is that there has been no change in the use of emergency rooms and the health insurance offered by the state is a joke and doesn't cover much of anything. The state of Massachusetts must be subsidized by the federal government each year because the costs are so high. Once this "reform" really goes into effect just who will bail out the federal government when it too cannot afford the reform it pushed so hard for? The Massachusetts plan has absolutely NOT cut the costs for anyone and has actually cost the state about 4 times what it estimated.

Wrong again confundus.

This new plan allows all of us to ditch our health insurance and pay the fine instead, which is way cheaper.

The minute we get sick, we buy health insurance - they have to insure us then.

So your idiots have just created a fool proof method to both destroy health insurance (which I am all for) and health care, as this system cannot survive with these conditions that include unlimited lifetime benefit and that I cannot be turned down for insurance.

exactly the problem in your own post... "shall be uniform throughout the United States." This bill is not uniform. It has exemptions for a few states, it exempts citizens who happened to have worked in the legislature, etc... so in your own post you demonstrate that it is NOT constitutional.

You are the typical liberal progressive. The only racism that exists is that which you yourself bring into the mix. It wasn't racist to disagree with Bush, but boy now that the Predisent is a black man any disagreement is considered racist. You are such a flaming hypocrite and typical progressive liar.

If you get your news somewhere other than Rush, you would know the special deals are removed via the recon package.

Dakota

you really believe when the Senate gets done they will not be back in- P.T. Barnum would have loved having you around and I have a few bridges I would be glad to sell you- sorry the Rush thing won't work do not listen to any of the radio talk get my info from the net and the papers and do not mean Fox or Heffington actually read all and decide for self and all have seen this bill is a disaster going to happen IF it gets finalized- especially after the left "FIXES it" and that is an opinion that has nothing to do with the man in the WH

Dragon,

I am just like you, but I do not trust the cons.

So, until President Obama lies to me like Bush/Cheney did, then he gets a free pass and I believe him until I am proven wrong.

And for your to even hint that those same deals does not happen when the Reds are in office, shows how naive you are about politics or just your partisanship.

For example, the cons held the voting open on the Medicare part B vote for 3 hours, while THEY twisted arms and made closed door deals.

So, we can agree both parties are quilty, but not that ONLY one party uses.

Guess the 'net reading did not find that tidbit. Try Google.

Dakota, have you actually read the constittuion? I have it in front of me. The general welfare portion has 18 enumerated powers the government is responsible for none of which include healthcare or even a reference to it If you think the framers didn't have healthcare problems when the constitution was written i would suggest you read your history. Most had little to no access, Benjamin Franklin himself solicited private money to build a hospital in Philadelphia. The constitution was written as it is because to framers realized thhat government couldn't and shouldn't control every aspect of a person's life. Our forefathers fought and died to escape from the European way of government yet many of you seem to want to go backwards and not think and do for yourselves.

Wrong again Dakota - several of the special deals, like kicking forward several years the tax on cadillac plans to assuage the unions is still in.

A guy came into my office today - a cancer survivor, retired policeman. He just got notice that his health plan is going to be taxed. He wasn't very excited about that.

The "plan" is a fraud, a joke, and I can't wait to hear the stooges who haven't drilled down into the dirty details scream bloody murder when they find out how screwed they are.

Oh, and this war monger wants all of our troops home and all of our foreign bases closed. FYI.

You got what you wanted, now why are you people STILL complaining? Go back in your holes and enjoy your wonderful healthcare reformed day!

Dakota, to answer your questions,

Medicare part D was Bush's stupid attempt to appease the left (sometimes republicans never learn that you can'tt appease the left)

Tax cuts have always been proven to actually increase the revenuwe to the government (get away from the leftist illogical talking points). Since when has the CBO or any government evaluation of cost ever been correct anyway?

Thanks for the "black man" comment. It proves just how racist you are. It is only people like you that have to resort to that excuse. The rest of us work on the issues... your ilk knows that you are wrong so you have to say that if we are against the issue it must be becasue it is a black man in office... Great intelligence there... bravo...

And they voted no because first the CBO has never been correct and second they voted no because before this, we were not a socialist country and didn't want to be a socialist country.

Do these pesky facts help your limited understanding?

Tax cuts added to the deficit perhaps you missed that. Of course, it adds to the economy short term I was discussing the long term effect that you cons did not mind putting debt of the "backs of our" children until this BILL.

The black man comment was to show that is the only paramether that changed in the last ten years, your the one with the guilty conscience not me.

Of course,you resort to "tax cuts" and "socialism" Red talking points.

You say the CBO has no credibility yet state that your post as factual? LOL! You're not clever. Bush made tax cuts then increased both the size of government and government spending = unsustainable.

Not complaining Suzq, just pointing out the hypocrisy of the past choices of the Reds and the latest choice with regards to the NEW concern about future generations and debt.

Mike reread where did I say the CBO score was credible? I stated the cons voted FOR bills they KNEW would ADD to the deficit as defined by CBO.

They voted NO on a bill the CBO scored to REDUCE the debt.

Dakota,

Why do you think GW's approval ratings were so low?

Why do you think the DEM's got back into power?

Why do you think so many center-republicans and independents voted for Obama?

Some of it has to do with the war, but a lot of it was because GW and the Repubs were not following core conservative values, like if you increase spending in one area you have to make cuts in another area to cover it.

Fedup

And like running both wars off the budget books and using special emergency assessments to further hide the true financial costs.

Then WHY are you NOT supporting a deficit reduction bill of 1.3 trillion over 20 years???

Simple, Dakota ;

Because the Health Care bill that just got passed will NOT reduce the deficit. there is no possible way that having the federal government take over one sixth of the economy is going to reduce the federal deficit.

The only way to reduce the deficit is to REDUCE FEDERAL SPENDING. And the programs that are causing the federal deficit to explode are the entitlement programs -- Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and now Federal Health Care.

The government's solution to the ever increasing costs of health care will be simple -- hyper-inflation. It will be so bad, that we will look back fondly on the hyper-inflation of Germany after the First World War as a period of fiscal stability.

Congratulations, Democrats. You just broke the bank.

So you are quoting PRELIMINARY CBO numbers that will be wrong as soon as the Senate acts on the house changes, and that's your argument?

Do you not know that the changes proposed will decrease the income shown in the bill, and increase costs?

And how about the crushing penalties the left is levying on the working poor? They Democrats have $68-$109 BILLION in their dirty little plan as a budget item that helps "reduce costs" for this bill. These fines will be for people who choose to pay the fine rather than buy insurance, because then, like now, it will be cheaper to pay the fine than pay for insurance. So they still end up WITHOUT INSURANCE.

Oh, and if you missed my earlier post, your idiots just passed a law that allows me to cancel my insurance and pay the fine (this will save me about $5,000 annually). The moment I really need insurance, the insurance company will be forced to insure me, so I can simply buy insurance only when I actually need it.

Do you think I am the only one with higher math skills to figure this out??

No, this is not reform, this is a fraud and a disaster.

But thank you - I am going to save a ton of money.

What you mean "we", SueZQ? !'m part of the electorate, and you don't speak for me.

Sure Bali Bob.

I'm an electorate too! Maybe Obama will send you a FREE pen - like the one he uses to sign the biggest pile of crap America's ever seen! How proud you must be to witness this hysterical event! He's signing a bill that more than half the country doesn't want. LOL!!

We'll just have to wait and see what happens next. But have yourself a great day anyway!!

They need to be the party of HELL NO when it comes to voting our country into socialism

SueZ Q:

I support the party of NO, as well....as long at that NO includes:

NO to big government, NO to socialism, NO to amnesty for illegal immigrants, NO to continuing the take over of the private sector by the government, NO to trampling the Constitution, NO to stripping citizens of their individual liberties, NO to spreading the wealth,and NO to forcing the people to be dependent on the government, while saying YES to free enterprise, YES to lower taxes, YES to eliminating unnecessary federal government departments, agencies and CZARS, and YES to holding government officials accountable.

What's your beef retired marine? If you are in fact a retired marine then you have been living off socialism. Interesting though that you are all up in arms about "socialist" this and "socialist" that while YOU are living off the public dime. That is IF you are actually a retired Marine.

RetiredMarine - I want to apologize for anyone stupid enough to think that a warrior is somehow living off socialism.

I salute the servants who have provided one of the core responsibilities of our Federal Government - to protect the states and the citizens from our enemies.

When one signs a contract and works, risks, sacrifices time and effort, their reward is not "socialism".

It is a sad day when people resort to distortion and lies to try and make their sad little point.

Rightie2010: "NO to stripping citizens of their individual liberties"

1- Then you should be as pro-active when it comes to being forced to buy auto insurance since it's pretty much an attack on your liberty to have it or not.

2- Last time I checked you can still express yourself without the Evil Muslim Government Police coming after you with batons and such and ripping you to pieces.

3- Socalist countries like Spain and Germany allow citizens a lot of liberties. There is even less TV censorship there than in the USA.

4- Are you for liberty or ANARCHY? Some of you folk take it to very nearly anarchic views.

5- Enterprise, if it were too free, can sell you defective products that can kill you or sell you scams and get away with it without consequences. You want that, right?

I could go on exposing how pathetic and ignorant you are but I have better things to do. Now, if you believe America is dead and Satan won and it's a huge tragedy, well, here's a hanky so you can cry us rivers... cue violin and piano...

Cute.

Dumb

and they are the controling party for now but come November we will throw them out with Gods help. This current goverment in power is nothing more than a group of closet socialist trying to force their will on the american people. The Republican party of Know listens to the American People instead of the Socialist leaders in congress and white house. Long live american liberty for it shall prevail come november.

God does not, help with these matters, at least he'd better not . He should be busy saving starving children, flood victims, earthquake victims, dying children and you know, all the disasters he created. He should be way too busy to care about our little cushy lives (compared to the rest of the world) we lead here is America.

steve - don't forget the idiots he created. He has to take care of them too.