Of course, the rights idea of learning is to read right wing reactionary's skewed thinking. Reading the Constitution is good and would be good for all Americans. All fundalmentalism, though is dangerous to a diverse society such as ours.

This arrogant attitude towards the We The People and the subsequent legislation that results from that hubris is the exact reason for the TEA Party Movement.

Bruce-1960998

This arrogant attitude towards the We The People and the subsequent legislation that results from that hubris is the exact reason for the TEA Party Movement.

No, you have "arrogant attitude" confused with "mental illness".

And an unhealthy obsession with teabags.

sb001

Amazing . . . you set your login up as -god and accuse Bruce of arrogance? What a truly ignorant oaf you are.

Amazing... you can't read.

I didn't accuse him of arrogance. Try again, slowly, one word at a time.

When people accuse you guys of being clueless, it's because you ARE. Education really isn't as bad as you think.

What it comes down to is the Tea Partiers only care if Republicans are in office. As long as they have a Republican in office they don't care about the Constitution then. Where were they from 2001-2006?

Tea Baggers encouraging reading? Seriously?

I must admit, this is a case where science fiction may become science fact.

Although, I am sure their reading won't be very wide or deep...just a few tracts from the American Heritage Foundation or the CATO Institute.

I am most assuredly not a Tea Party proponent. I view them as small-minded, selfish, and ignorant citizens. However, if the intent of the article was to provide them support for their idiotic interpretation of the Constitution, it did a great job.

Consider this quote,"Scott and others look primarily to the Constitution's 10th Amendment, which grants to the states all powers not specifically given to the federal government. Like those on the left, they also point to Article 1, Section 8, which enumerates Congress's specific powers, including the right to tax and to regulate commerce."

The 10th Amendment DOES NOT grant powers of any kind to the states. The states already had those powers. Indeed, the states granted powers to the federal government. The STATES created the federal government, not vice-versa.

It is this nonsensical understanding of the Constitution that allow gunners to insist that they have unrestricted rights to gun ownership courtesy of the Constitution. (I hear the screaming and smell the burning hair already.) It is the states that have the right to restrict gun ownership.

The Tea Party has no clue about "Judicial Activism". Taking a law that applies to the District of Columbia - a creation of the states - and then applying it to the states is the height of 'Judicial Activism". That is precisely what the court did when it granted even MORE power to a centralized federal power in D.C. Rabid gunners and the N.R.A. don't get it. Yes, they have the right to own firearms, but they always had it, and the states regulate that right.

That the Tea Party - and the right wing, in general - find nothing strange about giving a piece of paper all the rights, but few of the responsibilities of a living, breathing being speaks to their ignorance of the Constitution.

Finally, one must ask, which Constitution is it the newly-energized Constitution adherents want to follow. Is it the one that treats slaves as less than a full human? Is it the one that denies a woman the right to vote? Perhaps they like the one that prohibited alcohol manufacture and consumption, or do they like the one that allowed the manufacture and consumption of alcohol?

I truly wonder how many of these people have actually read the Constitution.

Some of you posters want to spout pre-formed opinions and name call in order to insult those with whom you disagree. That's not debate. Please go to another site that accepts that kind of nonsense.

The article is so biased it is shameful. I have seen nothing 'radical' about the movement.
Reading the Constitution would be a good start, maybe people would see how much the current administration is pissing all over it. Healthcare 'reform' (takeover), bail-outs, payoffs, backroom deals, it's all unconsitutional. Bush was no better with his 'patriot act' (spy on citizens and lock people away forever without due process).

I't pretty horrible to see the lamestream media bias in these articles suckering the ignorant masses into believing the government has complete authority to do anything it wants to anyone it wants under the 'provide general welfare'. That's garbage, it's promote the general welfare, the providing part is supposed to be each individual's responsibility.

When was it that the dream disappeared and hopelessness replaced it ? I so want to be proud of our country, I mean I'm proud of our heritage,,proud of our young people that serve this nation without hesitation, proud that we are always the first responders to the rest of the world in their times of need. But the divisions that have caused this Nation to take apon it a new face leaves me wondering. Who are we becoming and why ? This in turn leads me to understand why other people so desperately want change, but I ask , What was wrong with the way we used to be ? When did it all become so important to act individually instead of one united ? The Constitution layed out a landmark of which the ship of justice would have a beacon to navigate by. Having been created by some of the most astute minds of our historical times it had to have been intended by those that wrote it to be a livable breathing entity that would allow itself to evolve with society in accordance with how it evolved. Those in the past most assuredly had the intuition and intelligence to realize that the future of this Country out of a need take on a totally different make-up from their own time. By dividing ourselves we not only prevent our growth as a strong nation but halt the ability of the Constitution to attain new meanings through old ideas while still maintaining the original ideallogy. Eventually the Constitution will become just an " OLD LETTER" and we will become a has been Country. It was always in time of dire that this Nation could put aside our differences and band together but even that has seemed to have lost its way. We have come to a turn in the path in our history that leads to a fork in the road that once chosen and traveled will allow no turning back. If we do not walk it together it will be of no importance who will lead the way. Too much time is wasted on " The Who " and not enough time spent on "The How" and the clock ticks ever swiftly.There was nothing wrong with what we used to be, there were clear cut choices and honorable people who abided by them once made and a strong reslolute that " what we find wrong we will fix as with the next election our day will come" and even those that did not agree forged forward to keep this Country strong. There was a sense of pride each day we raised our flag. I wish I were young again, but not in todays world, though where I have come from was not perfect it was always striving to be so. Yes we failed but we did not give up , we held amongst ourselves a sense of pride and dignity as a group. What day did that cease to exist ? Yeah i wish i were young again but once again driving my beat up "67" Chevy down Main Street on a warm summers eve would be just fine by me...............

And how is this going to change them from being seen as an angry group of old white people??

Wow! Shocker! The Tea Party is going to use a reconstituted version of the Constitution to get a Republican elected....my, my, my....desperate times call for desperate measures.

Stand by for the new "Constitution" that will be less for the people, by the people, of the people than it will be For The Republicans, By the Republicans, Of The Republicans. Well...that sure is one way to get your One Party Rule off to a good start, isn't it?

Spider: I have a GED, work 60 hours+ a week and still don't trust them.

When they stop embracing the republican party solely then I may give em a look.

Where the tea party sees an encroachment of states' rights, the left sees a valid interpretation of the mandate, described in Article 1, Section 8, to provide for the "general welfare."

I can't seem to find that anywhere in the Constitution. The proper wording is "to PROMOTE the general welfare". There is a difference. It is not the governments responsibility to provide anything. It's my responsibility to provide for myself, and not be a burden on my neighbors.

I would also like to know where these Tea people were between 2001 and 2006. I suspect the true reason for the existance of the Tea people is found in the concept of.........

SORE LOOSER

What will the sore loosers do when we the people re-write the constitution omitting the Second and Tenth amendments eh?

What will the sore loosers do when we the people re-write the constitution omitting the Second and Tenth amendments eh?

The problem with our country is people who don't like the constitution and want to rewrite it. Unfortunately, some of those people are in power right now.

Magnum Serpentine...Let's look at the damages of GW Bush..how did he really get elected in 2000? Can't be repeated by the Republicans, can it? How did he get re-elected in 2004...another "can't do again". So, when you consider what's left for Republicans against the barrage of Americans who know the lunacy of the Bush era, how else but through a non-descript, ineffective movement can they get a president in the White House to finish what Bush started? They can't impeach another president. They know that would end their party for good.

The Tea Party is the Republican version of "change". Not for the better, mind you. The problem is that in the Cold War Republican minds, change just means turning the clock back to 1950. Change for the better of the common good of all the people is NOT what the Tea Party has in mind.

Just goes to show you how out of touch I am. I honestly didn't know there was a comic book version of the Constitution. Wow! Colored pictures and everything!

Indego Halo....

I have no doubt that most Tea Party members would like to go back to the days when women couldn't vote and when a black person was considered three-fifths human.

Then why in the world would they sponsor groups that study the Document that supports all Men being equal and creating a more perfect Union.

Union does not imply giving special rights to special interests. Women vote because they are part of the collective and contribute to their communities. People of color have worked tirelessly for equal participation as they are part of the collective and contribute to the communities. Country, State and Local Governments no foster negative consequences for homosexuals as they are part of the collective and contribute to their communities.

What we are experiencing now is that factions of all of these groups have taken their personal issues to an extreme that should not be pertinent to the discussion in America because special interests who seek more than equal under the law is a blow to Individual being a part of one Union.

I will be glad to debate issues but you should at least state at lest one relevant real issue.

If this schooling is modeled after the Texas Board of Education version of American History, I am not interested.

I just looked at the consitiution and it says promote the common good

Abolish Taxes - totally incorrect about the Tea Party movement. Over half of the movement is Independents and Democrats. The Tea Party is rather stricly about fiscal responsibility within a reasonable tax system.

There are fiscally conservative democrats, but the current democratic party has squeezed them out over the years. The conservative wing of the republican party IS fiscally responsible. It suffered huge losses to Independents and Libertarians because the Moderates, including "W" are not fiscally responsible.

The Independents voted for Obama because they believed his claim that he would be fiscally responsible and low taxes for the middle and lower income groups. Look at your grocery bills, they are up 20% because of inflation. You are paying more because of inflation and hidden taxes eating up more than the low income tax breaks save. Just as fiscally responsible people foretold.

The US Constitution has become a static and stale document, and is descending into irrelevance. It will never be amended, ever again, because there is no way enough states will ever ratify any proposed amendment. Amendments used to happen fairly regularly. Now we can't even agree that an Equal Rights Amendment is something that actually belongs in the constitution of this country.

I agree with the basic intent of our constitution, but it only goes as far as it goes. When the Tea Party types start picking and choosing which amendments they like or oppose, and when they start talking about health care reform and the environment as two examples where the feds have overstepped, that's when I get worried. The founders never envisioned a country in a world or time such as the US, today. There was no need for "health care reform" back then. There was practically NO health care. Also, back then, there was no way to know how large the population of the world would grow, and what that would quickly do to the environment. Yet if the states were in charge of health care reform or environmental policy now, they would have absolutely zero effect. For every improvement made in one state, a neighboring state would simply cancel it out by moving in the other direction. It's pointless to depend on the states when the problem is either a countrywide or worldwide issue. Absolutely, totally pointless.

The US Constitution as it now stands is not even close to being an adequate document to use as the framework for governing this big and important of a country. The tea-party types may not want to hear it at all, but the constitution is outdated and we have no choice but to sidestep it when necessary. Especially since it can't ever be changed, even when it makes total sense to do so. That's my opinion and it's just the way it is.

The constitution should be revered, and occasionally ignored, too. God Bless America, and God Bless President Obama.

DB,

Most of the people who are on the left, do not understand the concept of inflation or hidden taxes. They simply blindly follow Obama's 'tax the rich' mantra, while blaming capitalism for their diminishing living standards. Concepts like inflation and hidden taxes will never be things they understand. Once hyperinflation starts, they will support whoever will instill price controls. The end result of course will be empty shelves in the supermarkets, and necessary medications will go underground.

First, must we all denigrate each other when we discuss issues, any issue, and all sides are guilty of it. Second, I too have advanced degrees in American History as I have seen others post, so I would be happy to debate any of these issues with anyone. Third, the constitution is a document that was meant to be amended, hence the term amenments, by the people over time, and there is actually more than one way that it can be amended. If the people deem that something needs to be added or changed, then a movement can be started to seek constitional conventions in each state over any matter. If a certain percentage of the states legislatures pass the amendment, then it becomes part of the constitution. I would suggest that conventions be started in all the states to enact term limits on service within the federal legislature. Twenty four years combined service within the house and senate would be an ideal number since this is considered, roughly, a generation. We do not need more people like Robert Byrd serving over 50 years in the Congress. Also, we need to restrict lobbying of Congress and prevent anyone who has served in Congress from being able to lobby for anyone but themselves after they retire, or they are voted out. This situation we have now has created a scenario which has been conducive to corruption. If all current and past members of Congress were examined, most of us would say that their activities while in Congress and when out, would border on being illegal and immoral. I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture. Our Congress, all of them, no longer work for 'We the people', but for corporations and do what's best for them and themselves.

I have no doubt that most Tea Party members would like to go back to the days when women couldn't vote and when a black person was considered three-fifths human.

This comment is nothing more than stupid and educated trash! I grew up in a very conservative family and was raised by my Grandmother. She was a pathfinder for women’s rights! She met with Eleanor Roosevelt on many occasions. Your comment is flat out BS and you know NOTHING about how the mass majority of us live and what we believe. You have been sucked into the hatred of your propaganda machines my friend.

Your President knows nothing of business or how to run and protect our country. He does not know how to read a balance sheet, P&L Statements or to simply understand assets vs. liabilities! I mean my God, he just let his little buddy down in Venezuela screw over an American Company (Helmerich and Payne) out of Tens of Billions of dollars owed and then allowed Chavez to steal their Oil Rigs!!! Nine of them I believe!! More news that you will never see in your MSM! This is an act of war! But never mind, Obama is to busy Golfing and celebrating his celebrity status and flying all over giving one town hall meeting after another to his adoring fan club!

http://townhall.com/columnists/KevinMcCullough/2010/07/04/chavez_to_obama,_happy_4th_now_stick_em_up

Obama and his Chicago thug machine are in this for themselves and their love for complete power. Be careful for what you wish for, if the far left progressives get what they want, you will have NO VOICE in anything! You will do as you are told! And that is a big if at that! Let’s see if you survive the Depopulation process that the Oligarchy has up their sleeves! They want the earth for themselves! They are telling you right now what they are going to do! Because they have all the money and you don’t, they will decide for you whether or not you and your kids will live! Listen for yourself and make your own determination. Vaccines and Healthcare will depopulate the globe by a billion plus??? Am I missing something? Why is Fluoride put in our water which contains arsenic and mercury?? Do you really think the Oligarchy gives a rat’s ass about your pretty white teeth? Come on! Think about it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_rsVcAnnnw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0gvDkVcFkI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI0fnRbhHFo

That's the whole point isn't it. How you interpret the constitution. Just reading it, doesn't mean your view is correct, or that your interpretation is. That is why we have the Supreme Court.

The right will use the constitution to fit their needs as will the left. Knowing the constitution doesn't put you on the high ground.

The fiscal policies of the previous administration took us down the wrong road. If we are to get out of this mess, we must work together on compromises with broad support that make sense.

Vettel,

"I have no doubt that most Tea Party members would like to go back to the days when women couldn't vote and when a black person was considered three-fifths human."

Point proved.

reading the constitution and about our forefathers is fine and I have no problem with that, but it's the skew and the picking and choosing of what to represent that really bothers me.

Thomas Jefferson for example, was very anti-corporatism (warning that mercantilism had no national loyalties and only greed) which doesn't sit well with the tea partiers it seems, however they are far more willing to talk of his obsession with "revolution" which he felt should occur about every 30 years or so.

You also hear a lot of picking and choosing amongst the interpretations of the Declaration, emphasizing the "PURSUIT of happiness" as some open ended freedom one must work hard at, and a complete disdain at the preamble to the constitution saying "promote the general welfare" of the people, meaning to do what it can to raise the standard of living for its people (Welfare has in general become a dirty word although it is in some cases synonymous with"wellbeing", "happiness" and "health", which if you add "care" at the end of that, ALSO becomes a dirty word, which just proves that to tea partiers, newspeak is doubleplusgood and Big Brother's Minipax says so).

In fact. Hold up for a minute:

There's a conservative push to rewrite history like Winston does for a living in 1984, there's the week of hate, (very similar to the vehement hatred of an elected president), you have education equated with indoctrination, a cozy relationship with corporatism (mussolini's fascism ), and you can turn the Glenn Beck show into a FANTASTIC drinking game using the "seven common propaganda devices" listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Propaganda_Analysis (take a drink for glittering generalities, two for name calling or transferral), and NOBODY there sees the irony of calling the leftists "Nazi" "fascist" or decrying "SOCIALIST".....

Ungh.. I need to tune into Beck more often and get hammered.

The US Constitution as it now stands is not even close to being an adequate document to use as the framework for governing this big and important of a country. The tea-party types may not want to hear it at all, but the constitution is outdated and we have no choice but to sidestep it when necessary. Especially since it can't ever be changed, even when it makes total sense to do so. That's my opinion and it's just the way it is.

The U.S. Constitution IS an adequate and critical document for our times. In fact, it could be argued that today it is MORE important than ever. To understand why, you must understand the MAIN purpose of the Constitution: TO LIMIT GOVERNMENT POWER and PREVENT the onset of a TYRANNY.

Many people today have been duped by generations of government actions that have either generated or manufactured crisis, only to offer a "solution" that takes government in a direction that benefits the elites by adding to their power and wealth, and at the cost of individual liberties of citizens.

The genius of the framers was to include the provision for amending the Constitution when necessary, without allowing for such a change as to diminish its importance or allow for a total "rewrite".

People who support "sidestepping" the Constitution may as well ask to become subjects of a dictatorship, be forcefully disarmed, and carted off to concentration camps.

I'm not sure having an advanced degree in history necessary helps, as you would have learned what the government wanted you to learn. For example, do you really think our war for independence was based on taxation without representation, because of a small tax on tea?

Do some of your own research and you will easily be able to find the real reason we fought for independence. The king of England was going to force a central bank on the Colonies, making it illegal to coin their own currency. You can see literally hundreds of writings about how strongly the founders felt about NOT having an outside central bank coining currency and enslaving our nation into ongoing massive debt and taxation. It's right there in the Constitution we should coin our own currency and it was not to be fiat currency, for a very good reason, so we don't have every problem our country now faces -- massive debt, taxation, control of our country by those who control our currency.

I somehow doubt that any of that was covered in the 'school'(see also indoctrination) system's version of history. But you should do some of your own research if you are interested in history. You could read 'The creature from Jeykll Island' and look at what happened in 1913 under Wilson. Look at how Wilson won the Presidency and who supported him. Look at what he signed after taking office (the federal reserve banking act). Look at the other candidates who were favored to win office instead of him, they would NOT sign the federal reserve banking act, and somehow ended up losing the election.

If you are a life long learner, I challenge you to do some reading on what our founding fathers thought of a central bank (run by the bank of England owners). Look at what our assassinated Presidents had in common (they all tried to take back the coining of our currency from the central bankers). It's all out there, but is probably a far cry from what you have learned.

A final example, do you know that the federal reserve is private? The people who own the coining of our currency print money out of thin air, backed by nothing, then 'loan' it to us at interest? Do you know the federal reserve owns the IRS? Do you know when you pay your taxes they go to the federal reserve, and not to our government?

I suspect your advanced indoctrination may have missed some of the real important facts. My friend is getting his (second) masters and was just given an assignment to read Karl Marx and John Maynard Keynes and write about their many contributions to society? Really? Communism and central economic planning are good? But then again, that is the road we are already a long ways down right here in the United States so at least people will understand why 'stimulus' spending is 'necessary', otherwise they might wonder how we can spend our way out of insolvency.

It figures that these folks would view the Constitution the same way they view the Bible by applying their own interpretation--some completely off the chart. At least some are actually reading the source and not just regurgitating Echo Chamber talking points like they usually do.

Legal and political principles are derived from various documents of several of the Founders, not just the Constitution. For example, the actual term "separation of church and state" is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson. And the U.S. Supreme Court is the branch of government that rightfully interprets these documents through decisions handed down over time. Still, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." is pretty clear that no religion is to be brought about or set up or accepted by the government over any other religion (or no religion).

When the Supreme Court ruled in favor of Dubya in the 2000 election (Bush v Gore) then the right-wing was all for making the Constitution irrelevant. As posted above, the far-right is all for something as long as it fits their narrow world view.

Vette,

Nice to see there is someone who is wide awake. The sad part is you are right, but it sounds like a massive conspiracy theory, because that is in fact what is really going on. Unfortunately, there are few people with open enough minds to actually process the information and make a conclusion not pre-programmed into them by the ongoing indoctrination by the media, our school systems, etc...

Linking Obama to dictatorship is pure crazy psycho talk. It's why Tea Party folks will not be accepted by the main stream cause many of them believe this stuff and have conspiracy theories that are going nowhere. I like a lot of the Tea Party Ideas, but they really need to separate the crazy from the credible.

I agree, Steve. But I was a hard lefter and spent almost a year being completely dumbfounded as I learned what is really going on. It seemed completely incomprehensible, but was in fact backed up by facts, over and over again. Eventually it became obvious that what I had previously learned was not only innacurate, but intentionally misleading. If you ever open your eyes to what is really going on, you might find that the moldy, white tea partiers, like our founding forefathers, know something you don't. Ever wonder what it is? Probably not.

inflationiscoming...Oh we get it. You didn't see anything going on for 8 years but as soon as this president took office, the great white light shined and you saw all? Who are you kidding?

The Tea Party to me is just like one of those old time southern religious revivals. All talk and lots and lots of dirty back room secrets no one dares talk about or the purity of the evangelists empties the baskets of dough.

Steve

There is no doubt that you will find extremes on both sides of this conversation. I will agree to that. I cannot say that there is not one dumb ass out there who thinks women should not vote. But there are plenty of arrogant snot nose ass wipes on your side as well!

Inflationiscoming-

It is all too freaky isn't it! All the puzzle pieces seem to be fitting together perfectly! From the perfect financial storm to all the under the radar Executive Orders and legislation that has been passed over the last 30 years. These EO's have taken our constitutional rights and have thrown them under the bus. The amount of power that the President has today is just unbelievable! It sure is funny how the ACLU went MIA after Obama gave total immunity to Interpol through executive order concerning our constitutional rights being surrendered to the International Police. Interpol can come into your home, seize your belongings and hold you and your family indefinitely. Why in the @!$%# would he sign our constitutional rights over to the UN like that? There is something very big looming on the horizon!! I can feel it coming! If a sitting President declares Martial Law after some false flag op takes place or the dollar crashes (which is HIGHLY likely), we have NO CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS under that order either! Guns are seized (Katrina was a testing and training ground for that)! Utilities and ALL transportation are seized! Internet soon will be seized! Bank Accounts are seized, just to name a few wonderful powers Obama has over us! That is flat out too much power taken from We the People and given to the political and banker elites! Incumbents MUST BE REMOVED! TERM LIMITS MUST BE IMPLEMENTED! \

Vette, Your Paranoia rantings are not rational and a waste of your energy, and now a waste of our time. The timing of the Tea Party movement and your their anger, are suspicious, to say the least.

You should have been just as mad when the last Administration sent young Men and Women to die for false information and to UNCONSTITUTIONALLY declare war on a country that was no threat to us.

ewent , give some example of which your referring.

Sorry, not ewent , but inflationscoming, what kinda thing did the

"white tea partiers, like our founding forefathers, know something you don't. Ever wonder what it is?"

Can You tell me?

True Patriot

The correct understanding is that Religion should not dictate to Government policy i.e. Popes dominating a number of countries though the middle ages OR English government establishing the Church of England as the official church of the country. The whole basis of the Declaration of Independence was about people acting on their religious faith. for the US constitution, they indeed studied other forms of government and governmental frameworks/procedures, but in the end we are unique and intended to improve upon the failures of these other governments and documents. The Supreme Court following other's constitutions and laws will on serve to takes us back to where our forefathers sought to correct.

Secondly, What Al Gore was proposing breaking the equal protection clause of the Law by recounting ONLY 5 counties votes with a different standard than used in the remaining counties of Florida. As the counts were proceding his legal team realized several times that they still wouldn't get enough votes they asked for even broader standards for interpreting the ballots. If anyone was doing the stealing, that would be Mr. Gore.

The most amusing part is that the procedural changes actually caused a greater gap. When these things are tried, the leader's lead usually gets bigger, not smaller, which is exactly what happened in Florida, Bush's lead got larger with each broader standard.

This assault opened the door for Al Franken. In Minnesota, Franken found 5 precincts that were heavily democrat that the number of accepted were less than the number of people who voted. What they did was successfully sue to get the rejected ballots counted even though the total number of votes cast exceeded the number of people who signed in to vote that day. Even if the number of votes cast were held to the number of people who signed in to vote, Al Franken got enough rejected ballots were then accepted to win in Minnesota. Franken would have actually lost argument, if one judge had not recused himself (and did so properly), giving Al Franken the win by one vote - in a court of law.

Or maybe we know that the government is going to soon confiscate your 401K and IRA, provided you bothered to contribute. Not to worry, it will be 'optional' just like SS.

Ewent, please understand I never voted for a Bush. Ever!

cukoo-cukoo-kookmier

Only time will tell. We shall see in time.

WOW, so much for the 'party of inclusion', or whatever spin the dems want to put on themselves to perpetrate the fraud of caring about the American citizen.

Constitutional fundamentalism is being used as an excuse to revert to an American political structure of the 1840's.

At that time, money was gold or silver - although banks issued paper money on their own, and quite often defaulted on making it good. The country was only marginally industrialized, and of course there were no labor unions or any laws protecting any rights of workers. An unregulated marketplace meant that the likes of the future capital moguls - among them Vanderbilt, Morgan, and the original Rockefeller - were free to swindle their own investors, "corner" markets, engage in cutthroat competition to destroy their rivals, and of course buy politicians left and right. There were no civil rights laws of any kind, either.

Naturally, there were no laws regulating drugs, dangerous substances of any kind, advertising claims, dumping of sewage (which was usually deposited in the middle of the street), safety in workplaces, and of course anything even approaching an idea of what we know today as environmental protection. The very concept of inspecting and certifying the safety of food products did not exist. "Clean water" was an oxymoron.

Anyone who could control the rudimentary police forces of the time could control the community, and often did. Laws in most parts of the country mandated business closures on Sundays (these "blue laws" still survive in some areas).

Although principles of modern medicine were just emerging, they had little effect in politics, public policy, or the population. Among the great killers were typhus, dystentery, cholera, tuberculosis, pneumonia, "whooping cough," mumps, measles, chicken pox, smallpox, and infection. A blister on the heel could easily cause death. In 1841, President William Henry Harrison gave an overblown inaugural address in a chill rain, went to bed sick, and died a month later from pneumonia.

Many women died in childbirth from sepsis - infection caused by unclean conditions during labor and delivery. Although ether was known as an anaesthetic, many fundamentalist Christian preachers in America and abroad railed against its use to ease a woman's delivery pains because, the preachers said, the Bible ordained that birth should be painful.

Economic crises followed one upon another in that epoch, thanks to the financial destruction wrought by speculators, unregulated and unrestrained bankers, and outlandish investment schemes that swindled thousands of investors.

The nation, experiencing a swelling tide of immigrants from Ireland and Central Europe, convulsed in violence and hatred toward the newcomers. Politics at every level became a very nasty, slimy affair, with vicious smears issued on all sides in the newspapers and magazines of the day.

America was a terrible place in which to be poor in the 1840's. Crime festered in urban areas. Despite extremely harsh penalties for the smallest of offenses, America's poor often found themselves driven by desperation to commit petty theft, burglary, picking pockets, and any other act whcih might help feed or shelter them. There was very little charity of any kind in that America, and what there was of it was doled out to those considered "deserving" in the judgemental eyes of the churches and benevolent societies. Refusing charity to the needy was a very common form of civic revenge.

Uniersal free education did not exist in the United States of the 1840's. Teachers often survived by living with the families of their students and taking barter such as food or clothing instead of receiving pay. Generally, women were discouraged from serving as teachers in that time. Single young women who sought to teach were watched very closely and at constant risk of losing their positions on the mere basis of some nasty gossip's insinuations. Women, of course, did not practice medicine or nursing in that time.

The Tea Party movement, in its Constitutional fundamentalism, forgets that for decades everything from Civil Service Reform to the institution of regulatory agencies overseeing the broad welfare of the country was the product of harsh experience. The Tea Party movement in its ignorance ignores that means available under the Constitution to create those various agencies and programs - and ignores the extended debate over their Constitutionality in the halls of Congress and the Supreme Court.

The Tea Party movement is entirely out of touch with reality in every regard.

Tea partiers conveniently ignore Article 3 of the constitution, which describes the powers of the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court is the body that interprets the meaning of the constitution as applied to laws passed by congress. The tea party advocates and end run around the constitution when it proclaims that it has a superior interpretation of the constitution than the Supreme Court. The tea party's dogmatic views are merely posturing and empty slogans prompted by anger and frustration at things they cannot control. True respect for our constitution would include respect for the government that has evolved under its guidance and control, including its protecting the rights of morons like tea party activists who think themselves superior to it.

Bravo, John A!

An excellent post!

If these people were ever to learn anything at all and start to think for themselves,they'll cease to be Tea Partiers and turn against their right-wing mentors.

John A. - Indeed, an excellent post. Everybody keeps talking about how things were perfect (or perfecting) before 2000, or 1990, or 1980, or 1960, or 1945, or some other imagined date. People really refuse to look at evidence that the world has always been a very scary place and that providing for the common welfare is a huge responsibility that the federal government has taken very seriously. Sure, there are backroom deals and such, but that's the way politics has ALWAYS been, and voting in a bunch of new people won't stop that. Even televising every minute of every day in the life of every politician wouldn't do that, they would find some new ways around. You can minimize the impacts of those decisions through regulation and, I shudder to say it, bureacracy tends to minimize the impacts of vast changes, slowing them down to better help people understand, and implementing the changes at a more regular pace than our government.

Also, don't even try to pretend that the gold standard is some all-mighty all-important thing. Gold itself is a variable commodity that follows its own set of rules, and reattaching the dollar to gold would be a big mistake IMHO. Most of the people who want this want it because any gold they have would skyrocket in value overnight. Others have just been brainwashed into thinking that a gold standard would somehow make the recessions and inflation go away. News flash, all that was here before 1971, and much less controllable or predictable than it is today. Plus, you had deflation of assets and other things to worry about, exchanging one set of more predictable problems for a larger set of less predictable problems.

Also, keep your god out of our government. I'm not trying to force atheism on you, don't try to force your religion on me. Blue laws have got to go!

Doesn't one have to have gone to school first, before going "back to school?"

That would actually be expected but what can you say, they are the most extreme of the Republicans so not necessarily the brightest.

Bruce, said like a true zealot. Simply because you say it, doesn't make it true. Your first sentence defines your agenda as well as much of the tea party's agenda. I see it as something like this...

"We know what is right and you don't. If you don't believe like we do, then you are a (fill in the blank...Communist, Socialist, Anti-American, you get the picture) unpatriotic lout. We believe what we want and we don't let facts get in our way of our belief. If we feel we need support for our arguments, we'll simply make something up. After all, it probably happened anyway. We are superior simply because "he" says we are. And, He, with a capital H is on our side because somebody told me so."

Bruce, if you want to add to this platform, but you can't take away from it. I, and others, have been listening.

Crazy, isn't it. I have read the Constitution, in parts and in total. I am a believer in protecting the Bill of Rights. If you guys stood up against the attacks by bush/cheney, I could have listened to you and gave you some credence. All I am hearing is a lot of fundalmentist thinking that used to be found in the pulpit of the most fundamental churches and it doesn't matter what religion they followed. All you guys, Christian, Moslem, Buddhist, Hindi, etc, fundalmentalists sound the same to me.

By the way, your last statement is simply another example of you believing that you are superior to the rest of us simply because somebody said you were.

what you dont seem to understand misfit we tried to put people in charge that said they would change things but instead are doing EXACTLY same thing. The American people are tired of being told one thing and getting something else. IF you had been paying attention you would understand this.

It is interesting that when you guys talk, you insist on claiming that you are talking for all of America. The American people, in my assessment are tired of you guys and the likes of you. If we have a great nation, then so be it. You guys claim you are trying to protect this great nation and then you attack its every premise. I had four siblings. One always wanted her way and because she threw a fit, many times she got it. The rest of us get along today and the one doesn't get along with any of us. You guys are that same 20% that can't get your way and so you want throw a fit. By the way, have you ever voted Democrat? If not, then why do you think the GOP ever offered what you wanted. Maybe it was you that was wrong. Don't tell me that if you voted Dem, it would have been the same, because if you haven't done it, how would you know? I am an independent that has voted for more GOP members than Dems, but I don't believe either party has a lock on truth or failure. Do you?

rmc357

we tried to put people in charge that said they would change things but instead are doing EXACTLY same thing.

Do you have any idea (no, of course you don't) at all how idiotic that sounds? If they're doing the same thing as always, why are you freaks always out having heart attacks about what they're trying to do?

The American people are tired of being told one thing and getting something else.

Ah, yes, like the WMD's that we went to war in Iraq for.

Thanks for clearing that up.

"I am a believer in protecting the Bill of Rights. If you guys stood up against the attacks by bush/cheney" ~ misfitscentral

And what if we did? Making generalized statements is pointless. There are those of us who have stood for the US Constitution long before President Bush.

Also your ending remarks "All you guys, Christian, Moslem, Buddhist, Hindi, etc, 'fundamentalists' sound the same to me." ~ misfitscentral

Again this is a generalist statement. You continually lump any individual who differs from your opinion to the other group - no different than the person you speak against. For someone who only read a few posts of one individual you sure seem to know a lot about him/her.

On a different topic is a post below:

"What good would it do for this bunch of racists to go back to school. All they are after is out to destroy this country and the president. Probably three fourths of them are like Sarah that they cannot read or comprehend any thing. They are all to stubborn to learn anything. They should stay with their own blood fox news." ~ Irma in North Carolina

Once again assuming all members of the tea party movement are A) racists, B) incapable of education, and C) that even minorities who have joined, as I assume you mean white racists, are racists themselves. Please do us all a favor and read your posts before you write, at best, bunk, and at worst, idiocy.

Believe it or not I did vote for two dems(not obama, local elections) in the last election because they seemed to stand for what I believe in. and for the most part they are standing by theyre word. BY no means do I believe the present set of repubs or the dems even know what the truth is. We seem to be agreeing on that. I have 4 siblings as well thankfully not one gets there way by throwing a fit. We all work for a living. My sisters seem to be dems the rest are repubs. When we all talk its bad mouthing BOTH sides of the isle.

Try not to lump every repub in the same catagory, you seem to be a fairly smart person but doing this shows that you still have a lot to learn

Bill, you may be a supporter of the Bill of Rights, but you weren't when it was being attacked by the Patriot Act. Did you through a whiny fit then? Let me explain something to you that the book you guys seemed all to have read didn't obviously make the point. The Bill of Rights limits the power of the government and empowers individuals like ourselves. Every time it is successfully attacked, we lose a little of the empowerment and, then, you guys whine a little more and blame somebody else. The first ten amendments were written to protect us. Without them, we would be no different than other government centered nations and our liberties we so value, would simply be a part of history that would be written out of our history books. I did not make a generalized statement. I made a very specific statement and accusation.

The second statement I made about fundalmentalist thinking is an observation from watching these groups for my 40 plus years of adult life. I lumped them together because if you filter the particular religious dogma of each religion out, then they basically sound the same..."believe what I believe, or I will keel you...." Creating unworkable arguments will not let you win this debate. Why don't you develop your ideas and put them into your own words. Whenever the undereducated do this, they show their true self, it seems.

How is that sounding idiotic? you people just dont give up do you. I DIDNt like BUSH moron I diont like the war in Iraq If you would try and stop blaming Bush for everything maybe we could get something accomplished

And what if we did? Making generalized statements is pointless. There are those of us who have stood for the US Constitution long before President Bush.

OK Billpete, what did you do exactly to stand for the Constitution while Bush was in office?

rmc357

But is that not Republicans that strict Constitutionalists elected to put things right with the US Constitution. You surely are not referring to the party currently in control. I do agree that the current administration is following the trend to consolidate more power in the executive branch.

Many Liberals would be sympathetic with the Tea Party Movement if there was not this appearance of Beck, Fox news, etc. pulling the strings. And a healthy dose of mea culpa from the conservative side of the damage done to rights of citizens from legislation passed during the Bush/Cheney administration after 9/11.

Many aspects of current law is unconstitutional, but those items the Tea Party seems to focus on are constitutional under a broad reading, such as the commerce clause. It is the freedoms lost during the Bush/Cheney and the Republican rubber stamping Congress that to me are most disturbing.

In summary, the reason that the Tea Party has no standing with liberals is the fact that there is not a focus on the previous administration's transgressions, the ridiculous name calling (socialist, communist, Nazi, etc.), and the obvious opportunity that the truly racist have in a movement that has no strong central organization. There could be support from the left if the Tea Party concerns also embraced those the left had on the obvious erosion of our Constitutional civil rights.

I have several liberal friends that agree with some of the things the tea party stands for. they also dissagree with some, but they are smarter than you because they can see the differences and not call them racist, uneducated and so on, you liberals that post this garbage are the true racist and uneducated. You talk bad about Fox, do you believe the crap that comes out of the left media? You bad mouth one yet the other is fine. To me they are the same side of the coin, whose job is to keep us all agruing over this or that, and by the looks of it doing a very good job.

rmc357

First, I did not call the Tea Party racist, all I did was point out that it gave racists a vehicle to spout off because it does not have a strong controlling leadership, something I understand the members of the movement want. However, sometimes bad things come along with any broad umbrella approach. True on both sides. And sure made no comment about education levels!

Second, I don't think there is any negative comments in my post about Fox News, I just pointed out that Beck and Fox News seems to be pulling the strings with the Tea Party, particularly early on. Don't think you can deny that relationship has been very cozy. And if that is not so, then why was the two largest news organizations allowed access to the Tea Party convention both Murdoch owned, Fox and WSJ.

tyler...just when someone on the far left offered up some sort of conversation farther down the thread.

As a supporter, not member, of the Tea Party Movement I can accept that Irma couldn't really find a true fault rather must throw out the same old same old slander as if it were new or true. I think most who would have been offended if the remark were in earnest would just move on and let Irma from North Carolina show her true soul.

Anyway....can you get your R&D working on a product that will allow attached discussions continue? I know we are in a depression and all but then MSNBC must have more money than the Government and well software developers need jobs too.

Jubileebelle...I keep the entire Constitution in my purse. It was sent to me by the American Civil Liberties Union...the very group most of the Tea Party would send to hell if that was possible.

I don't think they slept through civics. I think they were appalled by the idea of Government by the people, when they found out that it evolved to mean everyone, including people they don't like.

Reading also requires comprehension skills. If you can't comprehend what you read it is pointless/meaningless.

Youcantuseit...I don't have a problem with the Tea Party per se. I do have a problem with the undertone..."My way or the highway"...gee...now let's see 8 years of "My way or the highway" and that got this country what?

Ewent I just Voted for your comment. "My way or the Highway" has often caused ruin to this country. No more so than the last 8 years.

A point I would make is President Obama said during the the campaign and during his presidency that there are a lot of wastful programs in the Federal Government that need to be gotten rid of.

If the Tea Party was so upset with the size of the Federal Government why did they not form committees to work with the President to identify them so they can be part of the debate? That to me would seem like a genuine non partisan thing to do.

The Tea Party also seems to forget that President Obama helped get the first TAX CUT for the middle class in years!

Lastly do I like this Big Deficit spending ...No! But do we have an alternative at this point I don't think so and the opposition doesn't seem to have a rational one either.

you just dont get it. its not about you or me or the tea party or the coffee party or any of this crap it about saving what heroes like washington, john locke, john adams, jefferson revere and the rest of them created for us. try reading a Pariots History of the United States. i read some of it while all my neighbors were getting drunk and setting off chinese made fireworks. school kids should be learning the real history of our great county sadly i dont believe they are

Youcan...It's always easier to bash this president than to admit that we had a very devastating 8 years with Bush. But you're post is spot on. I have no idea where this spate of bullying is coming from but I find it quite toxic to my sense of fair play.

Like you, I am not in favor of kowtowing to the rich boys who can't think out a problem with a Harvard education on their best days of the week. But, I also believe our government is not at fault for everything.

The excesses of the Bush years endowed too many of the 1% to believe wealth is a natural human entitlement. So, you get what we have now...two classes of Americans...the "haves" and the "have nots". The Tea Party isn't going to make things better by cutting Social Security benefits people pay for, cutting Medicare for the elderly who never earned a 2010 salary or welfare for the Mom whose old man walked out and left her holding the bag of empty groceries with 2 mouths to feed.

Here's what the real problem is...Too few Americans with too too too much money. It's almost like a bulldozer came into every neighborhood and shoveled ever last nickle into the backyard of the McBillionaires. The reality is no different than the age of the Robber Barons who embezzled their way into obscene wealth by cheating their employees and ripping off counties, the government and anyone else that would line their fat bank accounts.

I think that when wealth becomes so disproportionate that it empowers the smallest number, we no longer have a democracy but a plutocracy.

Jubileebelle

Tea baggers are hillarious...they need the likes of Limpballs, Beck, FailinPalin to tell them how to think yet feel that liberal types don't know anything about the constitution. Gee...not that long ago you were calling us elitist. Says a lot that most educated types are against the tea-bag movement.

This is probably just another way for tea bagger leaders like Beck to make even more money from their ignorant followers. PROOF - Beck University...I am sure he will be teaching all he knows about the constitution - NOTHING. Maybe all tea baggers should move to Texas - I hear they now have the corrected textbooks.

To > Rickau - What you, The Tea party bunch and others who refuse to surface to the future don't realize is those men like Thomas Jefferson, George Washington etc. are not heroes to millions of Americans like Blacks, some whites and Native Americans etc. These men were slave owners. How can they be heroes? (And speaking of things being shoved down your throat, history of Caucasian only contribrutions to this great nation has been shoved down the throats of America for hundreds of years) The Tea party today wants to keep it this way. Let us have things our way, do things our way and ignore all other Americans who don't look like us and please ignore other Americans honorable contributions made to this nation today in 2010 and in the past. There is so much history and positive input that Black Americans have infiltrated into this country that a lot Americans tend to ignore. The Tea Party group do not care about America and its survival. They only care about themselves and what is best for them as a group of like minded thinkers. If they really want to attract most Americans of all colors and races to their agenda, they would humble themselves and accept the fact that American history is American history and that includes people of color and their history in this country. You can't keep ignoring POSITIVE contributions of your non white fellow Americans, and expect to move forward and in a united fashion. I also want to remind you that times have changed. The constitution is a strong foundation and back bone of our great nation, however, it was written during the times when Americans road on the back of a horse and cooked over a wood fire. It was written before the civil rights era, before there was a gay and lesbian revolution, before we had cars, computers, etc. Think about this for a moment, during the 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's... ask yourself, what were your fellow Native Americans, African heritage Americans, Hispanic Americans living like during those times? Were they privileged? Did they have nice cars, were they able to mix and mingle with white Americans? Were they looked upon as heroes? How about the African Heritage inventors and their contribution, where, where is all this great history about other non-white Americans? You can't continue to block out history, we can't ignore and bury the mistakes made by our fellow white Americans and expect to move forward. Acknowledge the facts/history, banish the guilt, love, respect, honor, recognize your fellow American of all races and colors and then we can have a party.

I would like to see all tea baggers give back everything they have sucked out of the Gov't.Unemployment,social security,disability, Medicare, public school education.what a batch of Hippocrates,just like most religious nuts are.

Tea partiers are trying to usurp the Supreme Court as the body responsible for interpreting the constitution. They are a perfect example of the wisdom of the founding fathers to establish a form of government that prevents an angry mob of self agrandazing malcontents like the tea party from overturning 2 centuries of legal precedent. They will not succeed at their attempt to reverse history and rewrite it according to their narrow minded dogma. When the tea party says "We" want our government back, the "We" they refer to is the tea party. The "We" referreded to in the preamble to our beloved constitution refers to all of us, including the 20% or so who support the tea party, and the 80% or so who don't.

And where were you when reagan/bush/bush, acting on the platform of the American fascist Party, were in office? How can you explain the economic melt-down, not requiring safety standards to companies that can destroy our, that means American citizens, natural resources, disregard of amity between nations, disregard of basic human rights, disregard of a health system that was fast becoming only for the prosperous and not available to the masses, etc. Gee, I wish one of you guys would once give us a platform rather than simply attack this 18 month old administration. I am constantly looking for intelligence in the tea party movement and am sadly disappointed in how little I find.

Matthew,

I'm glad you love your country, but it takes more than bravado and braggadocio to effect real change, and your concept of history is so stilted that you don't even have a foundation from which to commence.

I don't care if you're liberal or conservative, Dem or GOP, but get your facts straight and try to have some grasp of the flow of history and the ideas behind it, rather than simply repeating whatever blather you've picked up from listening to shock jocks on the radio, otherwise you'll just end up twisting in the wind.

Mathew,

How about we deal with some facts here? Look at the chart below (From Moody's, not exactly a liberal think-tank).

Fiscal Bang for the Buck
One-year $ change in real GDP per $ reduction in federal tax revenue or increase in spending

Tax Cuts
Nonrefundable Lump-Sum Tax Rebate: 1.02
Refundable Lump-Sum Tax Rebate: 1.26

Temporary Tax Cuts
Payroll Tax Holiday: 1.29
Across the Board Tax Cut: 1.03
Accelerated Depreciation: 0.27

Permanent Tax Cuts
Extend Alternative Minimum Tax Patch: 0.48
Make Bush Income Tax Cuts Permanent: 0.29
Make Dividend and Capital Gains Tax Cuts Permanent: 0.37
Cut Corporate Tax Rate: 0.30

Spending Increases
Extend Unemployment Insurance Benefits: 1.64
Temporarily Increase Food Stamps: 1.73
Issue General Aid to State Governments: 1.36
Increase Infrastructure Spending: 1.59

Source: Moody's Economy.com

Food stamps and unemployment are FAR more stimulative than tax cuts or anything else. Why? Because the money gets spent - all of it.

You don't have to be a bleeding heart liberal to support this policy - you just have to be aware of the facts.

the problem with food stamps and unemployment is they come from taxes, taxes that are collected on people that are working, then used to feed those that are not. DO you see any problem with this? I do, Im not uncaring, but I have a major problem with working to feed those that simply wont

Gordo: Yeah... cuz democrats are the only ones with fancy offices in downtown DC.

rmc357

There are currently 5 unemployed people for each available job. It's like playing musical chairs, but with only one chair! Where on earth are the other four people supposed to find a job?

If unemployment was lower, I might agree that generous benefits for people who choose not to work would be unfair. But even from a purely logical point of view, these are the facts:

$1.00 spent on unemployment increases the GDP by $1.64 within a year.

$1.00 spent on food stamps increases the GDP by $1.73 within a year.

$1.00 spent on making the Bush tax cuts permanent decreases the GDP by $0.71 within a year.

If you are employed, or have children, or would prefer not to be overrun by a Chinese army, you have a very vested interest in growing the GDP.

Those are just numbers and what makes them correct? If I gave you a set of numbers and said I was an acountant in a big firm would you believe me? I have my reservations on numbers that show IF you dont work the economy will be better off, then everyone should be on food stamps and unemplyoment. With that logic then why work. Spin it however you want, JOBS make the ecomomy better. If the past and present administrations had the peoples best interest at hand there would be no need for food stamps and unemployment (save those that REALLY need it). The problem is this adm. is spending just as much if not more money but getting the same results as the past and justify it by putting the blame on someone else. This is what the tea party movement is about holding them accountable to the people. Now I have wasted enogh of my day time to go to work.

Dear Physicist:

Please don't confuse rmc357 with facts. You and I both know that the economic theories of conservatives are always correct even if their experiments yield poor results.

Did you know that if you want to make a ship more efficient you should drill a hole in the bottom of the boat to let the water in. After all how could sitting on top of the water instead of being immeresed in the water be more efficient?

Besides what did that guy Archimedes know any way he was probably a Lib.

Mathew...Your post proves just how easy it would be for the Tea Party to reinterpret the Constitution. This country was founded on freedom for all people, opportunity for all people and the general welfare means that you protect those who cannot protect themselves, help those when they need it and in true American fashion put back into the system what you took out.

Don't you people ever get fed up with the sound of your own whining because you have to contribute via taxes to "the general welfare". You don't mind taxpayers bailing out Big Business...but God help any of us if we want to insure that children have educations, the elderly don't like in rat infested nursing homes and the handicapped have the same opportunities you do.

The Tea Party has an undertone of bullying most Americans can dash to pieces in a heartbeat.

Youcant...I'd love to see these conservatives numbers on the risk of an oil spill of the worst case scenario in the Gulf. Where were their numbers then?

unbelievable just unbelievable

rmc357,

If you look 4 posts above your reply, you'll see that I already posted the source of the information - Moody's. They are an impartial, non-political firm completely based on the free market, and I believe their numbers. If you have ANY investments in the stock market, or even a 401k, you believe them, too.

I never said that we would be better off if we all just quit working and lived off welfare. You're completely missing the point here: when we have the greatest economic slump since The Great Depression, and only 1 job for every 5 applicants, the only way to begin growing the GDP again is for government stimulus spending. Hoover didn't know this, and plunged our country into great misery. FDR did understand the (very basic) economic principle, and saved many who would otherwise have starved.

You say you aren't uncaring. I don't get that at all from what you write. Once again, where are the other 4 people supposed to find work? Does it worry you at all that desperate people will turn to any means necessary to feed their children? Leaving millions without any source of income is not only REALLY bad for the GDP, but it will also greatly increase the crime rate in this country.

rmc...Is that it? That's your biggest gripe? Food Stamps? Now..facts pallie...just the facts...check the government records...the number of people who use food stamps? Less than 1% of the population.

Why is it the people who gripe the most about this are also the ones jumping on the band wagon to collect tax credits for the wealthy, farm subsidies for selling a lousy bale of hay and tax shelters that put their businesses in tax exempt status for decades? Who do you think pays when these wealthheads don't? And don't tell me it's good for business..if it was so good for business, we wouldn't have had to bail out Big Business.

Look Im not saying let these people starve, if this administration wants to do something bring jobs back to this country. Make it profitable for corps. to do business. Regulate them just to the point that they play fair. This is what the goverment is for. Getting companys to invest in American workers is the way to get us back on the correct road. Overregulation(liberals) is just as bad as underregulation(repubs). The PAST as well as the present admins are at fault and are doing NOTHING to solve the problem. Moodys or anyone else for that matter gives you numbers like those are only contributing to the problem not helping.

Call me what you want I dont care but dont be fooled by numbers that tell you its good not to work. These do just that.

ewent have you ever owned a business? I do and when my accountant tells me he can save me money on taxes I spend that money on new equipment, expand my business, and hopefully hire qualified people to make my business more profitable so next year I can do the same thinig agian. This is how things work, this is how we get this country on the right track even if you dont believe it or are simply to stupid and stuck on the fact that someone other than yourself has money.

rmc357

Moody's numbers are just that - numbers. It's a bizarre interpretation to look at them and conclude that they tell you not to work, because the numbers refer to the effect GOVERNMENT SPENDING has on GDP.

It clearly concludes that government spending on income tax cuts, accelerated depreciation for business, dividend and capital gains tax cuts, and corporate tax rate cuts are counterproductive and HURT THE GDP.

Government spending on food stamps and unemployment, especially at a time when the GDP is tanking, actually help.

It's a fact, and you call call it whatever you want, but no reasonable person could look at a chart about the impact various ways of government spending will have on the GDP and come to the conclusion that the chart tells you not to work.

As for your slam to ewent, how on earth do you know he doesn't have money? You say you own a business. I'm sure glad I don't have to work for you.

You should work for me, I pay all holidays, and paid vacations. I also provide small medical and dental at my expense and I do it without the help of the goverment. THe gdp is tanking BECAUSE the goverment is spending to much money. Did this ever accur to you? Stop the overspending of the goverment, put businesses back in charge of themselves and let the goverment regulate like theyre suppossed to

rmc357,

Thanks for the offer, but I'm retired. Interesting, though - do you do any original research in physics at your business?

The GDP is tanking right now because the boys on Wall Street gambled with my (and your, and everyone else's) money. I know a fair bit about the Street, because I used to do some complicated computer modeling for them. It's a real Cowboy Culture up there. I could write a book.

But when the bets went bad, all hell broke loose. We really were facing a Great Depression. I don't agree with all the steps taken to bail out Wall Street, especially the sweetheart deal cut with Goldman Sacks. But if you're looking for the reason that the GDP is tanking, both here and around most of the world, you don't have to look any farther than Wall Street and it's London equivalent.

Government spending is what kept your own business from falling off a cliff. If our banking system had frozen, where would you get short-term loans to buy inventory, distribute your goods, or make payroll?

You'd probably have a very different outlook on unemployment right now.

The boys on wall street were not regulated enough by the goverment to keep ,this from happening. To many politcians getting there pockets lined by special interest.

If we can stop this we all would be better off. Term limits on career politicians is another way to end some of the problems with our goverment. These are just some of the things that help I think you would agree. As far as unemployment I am a conservative I have money saved for such occasion

rmc,

Okay, now we get to something that we DO agree on. Regulation of Wall Street is vital. I also agree on term limits. Too much time in Washington (or even City Council) changes people - in a bad way.

But we disagree here - conservatives aren't the only ones who save money. I'm a liberal, and retired with nearly $5 million. It's a bit less now, thanks to the Boys on The Street.

See we can have good conversations between liberals and conservatives., by no means did I assume that they dont save money, just dont understand why they are so eager to give it away on entitlment programs when they have work for it. I will retire in about 4 years (not with that kind of money maybe 1 mill.) Im 46 now and cant wait. Providing that things start getting better that is.

I own my own automotive repair business and do quite well for myself, but if I ever need a physist I will call you. have a good day its been nice talking to you.

Matthew1659540 - Mr. GB and the Republican party was and still is the biggest mistake we ever made! Please don't forget that. Our president, Mr. Obama is only trying to help America get back on it's feet after we were slaughtered and left for dead by the former administration and the Republican party of NO! We are in bad shape because of a handful Americans who only care about themselves and not the real everyday Americans. I love this country too and I want it Blessed. The Republican party and it's followers only want to run it to the ground and ignore anyone not like them. God bless White America, Black America, Brown America, Red America, Yellow America! We are all Americans sir.

rmc..Yes. I have owned a business...at the age of 17, long before there was an age of emancipation. I also own a part-time business now. In addition to a full time job and a third as a freelance writer.

No. This is not "how things work". It's "how things work" now. Why should Main Street continually bail out Wall Street because Wall Street has consistently geared itself toward unbridled wealth they can only earn by bilking millions of Americans.

No country can survive when Business takes precedence over labor. What employers want these days is the right to throw an employee a loaf of bread and then tell them to "be thankful they have a job". BS. A job is a contract between 2...count 'em...2 people: The employer and employee. Neither one has supremacy. Employers today are bullies who think profit first and enterprise second. If this isn't true, how can a CEO of Blue Cross fire 200 people just to give himself a $9 million salary increase?

There's a limit to the patience employees will have with greedy employers. Kids are coming out of colleges in debt over their heads just to pay for education for jobs that aren't there. Whose fault is that? The college kids? Or the employers who would rather have a fat, secure bank account?

Physicist,

If you think a dollar of deficit spending (from China) has a multiplier that increases a nation's wealth, you seriously need to stop listending to Nancy Pelosi's failure to comprehend grade one level math. A borrowed dollar spent, does NOT create wealth. To prove this simply try to live off of your credit cards indefinitely, never paying them off.

Read Hazlitt's "Economics In One Lesson" It very simply explains how a modern economy works and the effects of government spending.

Inflationiscoming,

There's a WHOLE lot more to this issue than you simplistic arguement would imply.

Right now, we have a severely depressed economy — and that depressed economy is inflicting long-run damage. Every year that goes by with extremely high unemployment increases the chance that many of the long-term unemployed will never come back to the work force, and become a permanent underclass.

Every year that there are five times as many people seeking work as there are job openings means that hundreds of thousands of Americans graduating from school are denied the chance to get started on their working lives. And with each passing month we drift closer to a Japanese-style deflationary trap. Inflation isn't the problem right now - most economists are increasingly concerned about deflation!

Penny-pinching at a time like this isn’t just cruel; it endangers the nation’s future. And it doesn’t even do much to reduce our future debt burden, because stinting on spending now threatens the economic recovery, and with it the hope for rising revenues.

So now is not the time for fiscal austerity. How will we know when that time has come? The answer is that the budget deficit should become a priority when, and only when, the Federal Reserve has regained some traction over the economy, so that it can offset the negative effects of tax increases and spending cuts by reducing interest rates.

Currently, the Fed can’t do that, because the interest rates it can control are near zero, and can’t go any lower. Eventually, however, as unemployment falls — probably when it goes below 7 percent or less — the Fed will want to raise rates to head off possible inflation. At that point we can make a deal: the government starts cutting back, and the Fed holds off on rate hikes so that these cutbacks don’t tip the economy back into a slump.

But the time for such a deal is a long way off — probably two years or more. The responsible thing, then, is to spend now, while planning to save later.

Phys,

I most certainly hope there is nothing in my home which you helped to dream up.

If you actually had ANY senior level experience in the business world, like being in charge of a large P&L you would immediately understand that government spending does not add to the GDP.

For every dollar they spend, they must TAKE a dollar from a person or company productive enough to have earned a dollar to be taken by the government. Or they borrow it from a producing country like China, which the productive businesses and members of this society are then on the hook to pay back, via future earnings. Then they waste, misallocate or steal it. That hurts the economy, it most certainly doesn't help it.

Over and out. What a massive waste of time it is to post on a board where people who call themselves physicists, cannot even understand the most rudimentary principles of finance, business, economics, or even basic math.

Inflationiscoming,

Would Vice President of Emerging Technologies for Merrill Lynch qualify me as having senior level experience in the business world? I understood money well enough to retire at the age of 45, and spend more than a decade travelling the world.

Try re-reading my posts now - slowly - and see if you can understand even the basics of what I'm saying.

I am 40 and retiring after selling my $18M business which employs 96 people. I would have kept the company if we didn't have communists running our government.

People from Meyrill and Goldman call me incessantly. No one in his/her right mind would invest with them.

CapnBaccus,

Sorry to hear about your situation. Hope it improves soon. But your point is well-taken. These people who are screaming about communism and socialism really have no idea of what those terms actually mean.

Inflationiscoming

I don't invest with Merrill or Goldman, either. I know all too well how those companies work. It's disgusting how they treat their customers like ATMs. I wasn't a trader or an investor for Merrill. I worked on incorporating new technologies into their infrastructure.

Mathew is a garden variety consumer of Beckbull, Hannityspeak, and Limbaughlies. He, and all is Tea friends, will evaporate when the economy gets in gear again, and Obama has made great strides in overcoming the Bush/Cheney attempt to put us in another depression.

Physicist-retired, thank you for your calm, thoughtful, and intelligent posts. I was about to despair of reading any reasonable exchanges, but the conversation between you and mc357 restored my faith.

Too bad inflationiscoming had to pipe up, or maybe I would have left this thread with considerably less fear for our future. Communists running our government...really? With an $18 million business, I'd expect him to show considerably more savvy.

I wish the best of all possible outcomes for all of us.

lauradonovan,

Thanks for the input. I must admit that rmc's last posts were a surprise to me - he was actually looking for common ground. That was a real treat.

I have to admit that I find many intelligent posters. Someone actually quoted Hamlet to me today! You do have to look for them a bit, but they're out there.

And I'd personally be very surprised if Inflationiscoming was 40 years old, ran an $18 million business, and had time to do all the postings he/she does.

Hope to bump into you again.

Mathew, it is up to the Supreme Court to interpret the meaning of the constitution, not people like you or any other tea partiers inflated with your own self importance. It is the height of arrogance for tea partiers to proclaim that interpretations of the constitution that have been decided by the Supreme Court over 2 centuries are not constitutional. You people are delusional and dangerous.

Even if a few tea partiers convince enough idiots to vote for them to get into congress, their ridiculuous ideology will fall with a dull thud, accomplishing nothing but the disenfranchizement of all those who they profess to represent

The parties crossed philosphies when a Texas Democrat (LBJ) understood the march of time and backed Civil Rights legislation. Lee Atwater, a republican operative close to George H.W. Bush and Richard Nixon, who incidently had a couple of Lieutenants you should be familiar with-Karl Rove and Roger Ailles) initiated the infamous "Southern Strategy" which pushed racial hot buttons to turn the south Republican. The party of Lincoln is no longer the party of Lincoln, the party of Woodrow Wilson-a virulent rascist, imperialist, and anticommunist-is no longer the Democratic party of today. Because this is a nation where one quarter of the people do not know who we fought a war of Indepence against, history is very easily manipulated. Some people might like to think because the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were written by affluent, white, middle aged males that is all that it should apply to. The Revolutionaries might have been sympathetic 230 years ago-but they would have been hung for what they did back then had France, Germany, or Spain won! (Kidding! had England won Washington, Jefferson, or Adams might have the same distinction as Arnold)

Needster...Party lines cross and change. So what? Just try and get a single red state now to admit it was ever Democratic and see how fast their grits and gravy attitudes become toxic.

Dear Needster, The Rebublican Party wasn't founded until 1854. Slavery had been debated for several decades before the GOP was invented. It is true that abolition of slavery was signed to law by President Abe Lincoln, a Republican. I find it very ironical that today the Republican Party would slowly enslave the poor, disenfranchised middle class by allowing the corporations and top 3% of the very wealthy to control everything from politics to economics favoring financial corps and all big business. As for education, I'd choose the Universities and liberal arts colleges in the U.S. before any education provided by Ms. Palin, Mr. Glen Beck and Mr. Rush Limbaugh.

Needster - Vote them out and replace them with what, with who? Replace them with Sara Palin, Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh or any Republicans or politicians or any Americans who agree and follow these people? Replace them with people who think only people of color are all on welfare and are the only ones on welfare and they never, ever work and have a job and pay taxes? (Even though the Tea Party doesn't want to pay taxes) Replace them with people who think all Mexicans are illegal? Replace them with politicians who don't want to move forward and advance this great nation? Also, remember...you can't take back any control, for whoever is in office, will do what they choose to do. Do you really think a majority of America is truly going to be happy with someone you choose? Nope, their time will come and they will get voted out too! Face it, President Obama is not perfect but he is one of the greatest leaders we ever had. He cares about all Americans, not just a selected few, it's been proven and it's right in front of your face but you can't see it.

donotgaze...Isn't it sad that this is what the once proud Republican party has come to? Wouldn't you think that the Republicans who have such big mouths when it comes to "liberals", "welfare", "socialism" and "food stamps" would want better images of their party than Rush Limbaugh? Ann Coulter? Michele Malkin, Glen Beck?

If these are the mouthpieces of the Republican party, they are failing miserably.

President Obama is young, will make as many mistakes as we who are older than he all did. But, he is a president Americans can and should be proud of. The only ones who aren't have yet to achieve anything of worth.

I find that most of the insulting comments come from the right side of the table. Falsely claiming Obama is not an American is an insult. The Tea Party folks are the lead actors in this drama.

hampster read the post above yours bc you are a perfect example of what that post is saying.

hampster...Nixon was impeached and had the decency to resign. He did so because it was right for the country. Clinton was impeached and refused to resign, what a personal embarrassment for the country.

As for Gitmo and those measures to secure America from further domestic attack: What part of that was an affront to our Constitution? Please feel free to share what you know about our constitution and how the Bush Administration did anything that countered honoring the principles of that sacred document.

txMom...You don't know your history too well. Nixon was never impeached. He was faced with criminal charges stemming from the Watergate break in. He had no choice but to resign or ...be impeached. So, the little coward took the easy way out and resigned rather than face the ignominy of impeachment.

Don't think for a minute Republicans didn't seethe over that and blame the opposition either. It's the reason it was an "eye for an eye" and why they played the morality card to the hilt to get Clinton impeached in order to get their boy Bush in the White House in 2000. Political savvy...ain't it grand?

txmom:

So illegal taping, break-ins, misappropriation of election funds, etc., is on a parallel with a BJ? Nixon resigned because he knew he was guilty as sin of impeachable offenses. Clinton's impeachment was a shameful, partisan attempt to remove a duly elected president at all costs ($70 million on Kenneth Starr's investigation). While I think as his wife Hillary had every right to castrate Bill, I have never understood how his sexual appetite had any legitimate bearing on his ability to govern. The impeachment fiasco is a large part of the reason I have moved further and further away from the Republican party ever since (and King George sealed the deal). I became disgusted with the whole impeachment process when Ubermarschel Starr subpoenaed Monika Lewinsky's mother to testify against her, and accepted illegal tape recordings as evidence. Starr's investigation consistently leaked highly charged, sexually explicit information to the press (a really "independent council", huh?), a gross violation of legal ethics. Ultimately, Starr's report contained lengthy, sexually explicit passages that were totally irrelevant to the legal case. Starr's investigation lacked any credibility whatsoever, and the vote to impeach was strictly on party lines, clearly demonstrating the political nature of the entire affair. Meanwhile, we had a national surplus, business was booming, Americans were working, and our international standing was great. Sure doesn't sound like the Bush years, does it?

ewent...The formal proceedings were held are also called Impeachment. The process, considered very serious in itself as the impeachment proceedings had to do with High Crimes and Misdemeanors. Yes, he did resign prior to the final vote of guilt or innocents but the process was still valid.

Where as William Jefferson Clinton went ahead to the final vote and was found to have gotten through the process by perjuring himself. Integrity, should have led him to resign in the face of his obvious contempt for the truth but he did not.

Spiritdance... Where did I say that Nixon should not have paid for his crimes? I stated that he had the decency to step down and not continue the farce to damage the country.

As for Clinton the crime was not that he "did not have sex with THAT woman, rather that he chose to lie instead of expose the integrity that is required of the office. What else do we suppose he "lied" about that truly affected the nation. After all if the President couldn't be honest about a bit if infidelity what else did he choose to lie about out of convenience.

He received his sanction and the world went on with a bit less trust in American because the President was proved to be a liar and have the self control of a gnat.

CapnBaccus...Nixon faced most of his trial, and yes he stepped down as a coward and a sham well because he was and was indeed viewed as such by most of the Country. His resignation allowed this country to move on.

I do find it interesting that you neglected to list Carter in your personal indictments of "crimes" or National Shame. He was very damaging to our country with regard to his International Policies. I would be interested in knowing what your specific objection was to Regan. Mine would be that he encouraged an age of fuzzy bookkeeping that has permeated both private and public sector. I do feel that his approach toward Global affairs did out shine any prior attempts or since.

As for the others you mentioned....Clinton was actually impeached and proved to be a liar. No ifs, and or buts. What good does it do to have an Impeached President, that finally admitted to lying out of convenience, stay in office? He was and still is an embarrassment.

As for either Bush and Regan for that fact...None of them were every held to a public proceeding. Given the junkyard dogs of the DNC in Congress during GWB's term, if there had been any valid or legally binding, indication that he willfully subverted the authority of his office he would have certainly faced some sort of formal proceeding. The record holds out that nothing he did was with the intent or malice or contempt of our laws.

That man should not have been buried in American soil lest his vile corruption spread into the ground water.

Do you suppose that was a bit over the top. He was born an American and he lived as an American so where else would you suggest he be buried?

The biggest mistake this country made was electing Bush twice.

The biggest mistake this country made was electing Reagan. The country has only gone down hill from there. Reagonomics is the root cause of the nation's economic problems. Bush on the other hand just made things worse. The democrats are now stuck cleaning up the mess.

Minan59...A wise thought. I also agree. What began with Reagan was some bizarre idea that one party rule by an uppercrust with hubris out the wazoo was going to suddenly takeover government and by association the rest of us.

Can you see though the implications? Reagan was not qualified to be president. He was as much a dummy puppet as George W. Bush. So, the question becomes: Who in the Republican party masterminds the control of the presidency when a Republican is elected?

Minan59...Yeah, cleaning up the mess by creating a bigger mess. What happened to hope and change!

ProudGrandpa said "the absolutely insane level of spending the current administration and especially Congress is doing could easily damage our country beyond repair." Yeah, kinda like it did during the New Deal, huh? Why is it some people have no problem spending billions on nation-building and making war, but have a meltdown and start predicting the end of the world as we know it as soon as we spend any money on our own country? At least when we spend it here, the money stays on American soil. At least when it goes to the working class instead of into obscenely bloated corporate coffers, it goes back into the economy through consumer spending. But oh, no, it's so much better to enrich the likes of Haliburton in Iraq (while downplaying our interests in oil-poor Afghanistan) than it is to give unemployed Americans an extension, or invest in our infrastructure (you know, the roads you drive on, the police and fire departments that protect you, and - gasp gasp - that fascist commie concept, public education, etc.) through stimulus dollars. No matter how the far right tries to twist the facts to suit them, we got into this mess through the ineptitude of their boy Georgie (and yes, I will continue to blame him because it continues to be his fault), and we aren't going to get out of it soon or painlessly. Maybe if the Republican party would actually own that fact - and kick loose cannons like Palin to the curb - instead of trying to rewrite recent history, more of us could again consider supporting Republican candidate. As it is now, I know many like me who are AFRAID to support a Republican because - no matter how moderate the candidate - we fear empowering the radical right by shifting the congressional balance. Until and unless moderate Republicans have the cajones to go against the insane minority that has seized the party, I cannot in good conscience support any candidate that might give that minority control of our government.

SanteFe...I agree. Americans do want accountability. The only way to get that is to be able to remove a politician who proves in a court of law he has not fully carried out the oath of office he swore to uphold. We do this with the president and Supreme Court. It should go much further down the line of command.

Don't you love these one-sentence historians? How well-read... What depth of knowledge...

Man you guys just try to rewrite history. Wilson and Roosevelt were president when we were attacked. Germany in the first war and Japan in the second. Vietnam was the result of treaties signed by Eisenhower and they were partly to protect oil rights., The Korean War was the result of an attempt by the Communists to take over all of North Korea, or in reality the US fought the Chinese, not the North Koreans fought the South Koreans. We were fanatically afraid of Communism at the time. The Iranian Crisis was not a war, though, maybe it should have been. The Shah of Iran was overthrown and replaced by a Moslem controlled council headed by Ayatollah Khomeni. It was part of this group that over ran the US embassy and created a hostage situation. Clinton involved the US through the UN in the break up of the old USSR and Yugoslavia. It was a good thing. He didn't declare war on anybody. On the other hand, reagan attacked Grenada, bush attacked Panama and bush 2 attacked a sovereign nation without provocation, Iraq, something that has never been done in the history of the US. I can't you guys would bring up war as an argument against the Dems. For goodness sakes.

Bush the second

Wilson was an imperialist whose interferance in Haiti, South America and Russia layed the groundwork for the bad relations and extreme goverments for the past one hundred years. If Bush II had ever bothered with sissy stuff like history he might have known that Iraq and Afghanistan were misguided. He also might have known that wars do not create healthy economies. With the age of imperialism over, wars tend to devestate economies-kind of like us after Vietnam when we had nothing to show for the effort except death and destruction and a crappy economy.

Misfitcentral

I would simple like to make a couple of points regarding your statement. We truly did not need to get into WW1. The argument used was the sinking of the Lusitania before that we were supplying both side and we chose to get involved only when the outcome was known.

We were involved in the Vietnam War basically for the same reason that we were involved in Korea, fear of communism and the dominal theory.

We did not need to get our self into war during the Clinton administration. We did so at the request of our NATO allies but this in no way had anything to do with treaties with NATO.

Yes we went to the first gulf war under Bush 1 but their was cause for doing so. Iraq ran over a sovereign nation and was threatening Saudi Arabia. The truth is that we went to war there was because of our need for the oil in that region. While this may seem like a bad reason but the truth is that we needed the oil and at a price that wouldn't hurt our economy something Iraq might have done. We went to war because they had a commodity that we needed and we needed to use force to guarantee we would have it. Certain corporations would benefit yes but that did not change our need.

As far as the others goes I have never been certain as to why we went to war in Grenada but actually to call this a war is somewhat a streach and don't get me started about Iraq.

Needster...Who got us into wars? Try looking for truth and fact...The Military Industrial Complex Eisenhower warned us all about in his last speech.

Who has the most to gain from war? Not the average American. It's a huge disruption to their lives as well as a huge loss in terms of human life. But, do a more thorough check on how much was spent on helicopters, military equipment, weapons and other supplies and then take a look at who supplied them. There's your answer.

We got into World War I when the Archduke was assassinated and our allies needed our help. We got into WWII because of power freak maniacs like Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin. As for Viet Nam, that was a war that began before Kennedy when Viet Nam was French Indochina. Kennedy's predecessor sent a small contingent of troups to what was then Indochina in hopes of resolving the issues there between North and South. Kennedy's specific words to the Joint Chiefs was "It's not our war." What does that tell you?

However, all preceding wars under GHWB...were nothing more than Big Oil's toe in the Middle East. And you can see where that got us.

Well, now, Matthew, did you just lump a fascist Hitler, with two communists Stalin and Castro. A fascist believes in corporate control of all. Actually they believe in a few controlling the masses, with a weak middle class and a large growing and struggling lower class. It is the old feudal system renamed. It doesn't matter what you believe, the tea party movement supports all the ideals of fascism. You really need to do some research. You believing a communist could be a fascist is ludicrous. I have already done it. You, Matthew, are either a fascist or a lemming, following the fascist leads. Look to who began the movement and you will see corporate connections. Knowledge is power, friend. Put down the pamphlets and pick up an encyclopedia.

Matt, your Tea Party wants us to govern, worship, live your way and your way only. That is fascism.

I and my friends are all American, a small minority consider themselves Christian, a small minority of them are white, and very few of us are married with kids and drive minivans. None of us watch Fox News or listen to right-wing radio. Sadly, since any newscast other than Fox is consdiered by you as radically left wing, my group already falls short in your eyes.

We detest the wars. We believe in higher taxes on the rich. We believe gun ownership undermines liberty and inhibits first amendment rights.

We too believe that Federal spending is overmuch and misdirected. But there is no place for us in your fundamentalist bloc, white bread, rhetoric-spewing, hate-filled party. Sorry, but you and your ilk must understand your selves and your puppeteers first before we Independent voters will ever give value to your ranting.

How do you see gun rights undermines liberty and inhibits first amendment rights? The reason they are the 2nd amendment is to protect the first amendment.

People who can't win arguments with reason and don't like to lose tend to pick up guns. People managed to protect themselves long before guns were ever invented. I don't really care if someone feels they need an arsenal to feel secure. I just get real uncomfortable when my right to free speach and my vote can be intimidated by someone with a gun. That has always been an interesting point to me-if a form of goverment is so great-why does it have to be imposed on someone at the point of a gun? People really do hunger for self determination-the minute the gun is taken away-they will be free to do as they chose.

The second amendment was written so regulated militias could exist. Regulated a word you reactionary rightwingers just kind of jump over. I am a gun owner, but I don't believe because I own a gun, I ensure my own liberties. The Bill of Rights does that. We protect the Bill of Rights through elections and debate. Are you suggesting armed resurrection is the answer?

Mathew..You will never find as true a statesman as our current President. He may not be perfect, but, he at least is willing to take on a mess not even McCain could have handled without breaking the backs of hardworking Americans.

If McCain had won, exactly what do you think he'd have done about the number of US banks tied to international banks that by 2008 were going down and headed for a Great Depression?

Obama is a highly intelligent guy who knows that the hundred trillion...yes...trillion, in outstanding derivatives is one that will come back to haunt.

It was always Bush obligation to leave the economy in the same condition Clinton left it to Bush...solvent and thriving. Now, this president is forced to play catch up and deal with the Republicans constant obstruction of everything he tries to do. Republicans only do anything if Main Street pays through the nose...never Wall Street. Republicans lost my interest when I realized that they are anti-labor when it benefits laborers and not the guy eating caviar and drinking champagne...Hence...Champagne and Caviar Republicans.

rgculver...What a load of crap. In third world countries, the only people in power are those with guns and machetes. Get real. The Second Amendment has been seriously reinterpreted by the Supreme Court over and over so that the gun manufacturers can rake in the billions. Meanwhile, we run guns into Mexico on the sly and then complain when one of our border patrol Americans gets killed. Kind of stupid if you ask me.

So you can't think for yourself? You have to be told what to do by men living 200yrs ago??

@ dave in totoland,

Keep on watching faux news! Fair and balanced it is not... Please cite where the Constitution says that we can not enact health car. Be specfic and to the point not more rambliing RWNJ blather from faux news. Your concern for the constitution is touching but where was it when the neocons were shredding it and the Bill of Rights to write the Patriot act? Sometimes I want to barf at all the false outrage.

Don't get sick and barf yet monkeymike bc your obamacare hasn't started yet and surely isn't and probably never will be paid for.

We have a constitution that we have to live by whether it was written by men 200 years ago or not. If you have a problem with that there is a mechanism to make changes to the constitution and it is called an amendment. That is where it needs to be changed not by ignoring the original document.

Once again, the "believe as I believe" philosophy becomes evident! It is NOT controversial only to those who think their opinion and interpretation is right and everyone else is wrong. This is exactly what has repeatedly turned me away from the Tea Party. I long for a viable third party, as the current crop of Republicans can't seem to help but follow a radical, far right minority and the current crop of Democrats is not nearly centrist enough for me. But what I repeatedly see demonstrated by the Tea Party is just another form of radical conservatism with no room for real dialogue.

DaveOP...wrong...The Constitution does in fact give sanction to the healthcare bill. And what exactly can you find wrong with all Americans having healthcare insurance? The Constitution protects the rights of Americans to quality of life equal to all others. What do you find wrong with that?

Are the "haves" so afraid that the "have nots" might be a little too healthy and start making the decisions that reduce the greed in this country?

Mark1949 - Thank you, thank you, thank you. As a Tea Partier, I appreciate your well thought out argument. You didn't have to resort to name calling or throwing "Faux News", Palin, Beck, teabag or Limbaugh around. You're someone I could actually have a conversation with. Sadly there are very few of you or I left.

To all of you Tea Party bashers out there. I actually read his entire post and thought about it for a minute. People will listen to civil discourse. Try it sometime.

Civil discourse? Tea Partiers repeatedly screamed at anyone who had a different opinion at town hall meetings in August 2009. Their purpose was intimidation, not civil discourse.

ProudGrandpa:

It looks like I stand corrected. Social Security could be considered 'our' money in a broad interpretation of the program.

Driveby:

I agree, there really isn't much in the way of civil discourse. Thank you for your post, perhaps others will see that two folks with opposing viewpoints can have a discourse without rolling around in the mud :)

OptimisticAtLast:

I agree, last summer's repeated disruption of hometown style town meetings was extremely discourteous to citizens who came to listen to and discuss their opinions with lawmakers who took the time to meet with their constituents. Hopefully, that was an aberration and not an indication of things to come.

Mark...Broad interpretation? Give me a break. All anyone has to do is look at their pay stub. SSI is a regular federal payroll deduction. And, why did we need Social Security?

The same reason Main Street had to bail out Wall Street...big money men speculating until people lost their homes and properties. And why did that happen? Calling in credit when their stupid decisions went south in less than 60 days. Think about what would happen to you if everything you owed money on had to be paid off in 60 days.

The Tea Party blames all the wrong people and if you want to deny that Richard Armey isn't a Republican shill producing this Tea Party BS, you'd have a really bad time of it.

Also, Rusty.............Bush was more of a left of center democrat than he was a republican. His stance on amnesty for ILLEGALS, the WHO, the WTO, NAFTA, etc. would align him with the true Democratic party types back when J.F.K. was the President. In fact J.F.K. was the LAST one who was conservative in his American beliefs. That being his belief in God, a strong military, and fiscal responsibility! The Democratric party today has "morphed" into a diseased liberally progressive monster that is intent on destroying this great country.

GaryL said "Bush was more of a left of center democrat than he was a republican." Yeah, if you're standing on another planet to the right of earth! You really scare me!!!

spiritdance...OMG...I nearly dropped my cup of coffee...roflmao..Precious answer...absolutely precious...Made my day.

It's the typical republican response when pegged on why they are suddenly NOW outraged. All those Bush supporters now claim he was just a democrat in republican disguise. They've hidden the autographed photos on the aircraft carrier far away so no one can see. Deny deny deny is the motto. They can't own anything. They would roll their own mothers tomorrow after praising her today if they found themselves in a position of having to answer for their own contradictions.

Again the tea people are gathering for political gain and to take away our voting rights. This has NOTHING to do with the Constitution as it's all for republican control of our lives... That's what the gatherings were all about, strict adherence and NO independent thinking.

No 'independent thinking'? What does that mean? Take our voting rights away? How?

I wonder, grunt, do you support the policies, opinions or ideas the Obama administration? If so, would you, therefore, consider yourself incapable of 'independent thinking'? If not, why would you think that of those who disagree with you?

Take away your voting rights? I've been following the Tea Party from the beginning and have NEVER heard anything of the sort. Obviously you heard that from somewhere and have proof. If so, share it. If it's true, I'm with you all the way. If not, you are parroting it from another source which would mean you are guilty of 'no independent thinking'. They only denial of voting rights by the Tea Party I'm aware of is for illegal aliens.

You did have one thing right, these ARE political gatherings. Duh. In case you didn't know it, there's a big congressional election this November and the Tea Party is exercising its right take part in the process by garnering support for their candidates and agenda as does every other political party around election time. How do you think Obama got elected? Did you miss his countless rallies? Ever hear of ACORN? C'mon, grunt.

The Constitution IS America's ruling document. The rules were set up TO be adhered to. However, the founders made it possible for the rules to be amended. How? Both Houses of Congress must propose the amendment with a two-thirds vote or two-thirds of the State legislatures must call on Congress to hold a Constitutional Convention. Since those on the left cannot get the support they need to change the Constitution on issues like the Second Amendment, they circumvent it by appointment of activists to the bench like Kagan who believe they have the right to trump Congress and we the people whenever politically expedient.

Your characterization of the Tea Party is inaccurate and unfair.

Your knowledge storehouse appears commensurate with your judgment, i.e., hopelessly wanting. At least you can write in sentence form, which is more than can be said for most on the far right. The Tea Partyers are a gaggle of puerile, gum-smacking ninnies who are so frustrated with their lives that they, like religious zealots, seek solace by joining in a "movement" that confirms their prejudices and makes them feel part of something "important" (for the media tells them so). What people like cgr know about the Constitution and the processes of governing wouldn't fill the proverbial thimble.

Note the "We're superior to you" type mentality of the left-leaning, liberal, progressive, marxist, communist, socialistic(did I miss any? LOL!) crowd! Andrew epitomizes this thinking. That's why they struggle, and grit their teeth with real world solutions like lower taxes, freedom, the Constitution, liberty, God, guns, stronger military, less regulation, biblical principles, etc. There is truth to the "disease" call liberalism..............it rots your brain from within!

Happy 4th of July United States! May we "purge" this great country of it's noncommitted, atheistic, gimme....gimme....gimme thinking crowd of free-loaders! Hard work, belief in God, fiscal responsible, Constitution steadfast thinking folks are the core of this great country......AND is the reason she STILL is the GREATEST country on earth!!

How can the Tea Party take away our rights? How stupid does any American have to be to answer that one? It's as simple as putting a man like Bush in the White House with an army of capitalist cronies who are anti-labor, big time greedy and love the idea that war is profit...not for us...for them.

Then, to put the icing on the cake? You load the Supreme Court and Justice Department with like minded cronies who will do your bidding..oh..right...Bush did that already.

Your knowledge storehouse appears commensurate with your judgment, i.e., hopelessly wanting. At least you can write in sentence form, which is more than can be said for most on the far right. The Tea Partyers are a gaggle of puerile, gum-smacking ninnies who are so frustrated with their lives that they, like religious zealots, seek solace by joining in a "movement" that confirms their prejudices and makes them feel part of something "important" (for the media tells them so). What people like cgr know about the Constitution and the processes of governing wouldn't fill the proverbial thimble.

Those of us who've tried for years to discuss matters with Leftists understand a central reality: when a Leftist is cornered he resorts to three tactics---name calling, insult, and screaming to drown you out. Oh, and let's not forget the 'you're a racist' card.

Well, Andrew, now that you are through with your insulting rant, why don't you educate me. Tell me, specifically, which parts of my post are incorrect, Constitutionally or otherwise.

By the way, can you tell me what solace Barack and Michelle find in joining a black liberation theological organization led by Rev. Wright? You know, the radical, racist 'pastor' who mentored Obama for over 20 years.

ewent

My opinion, getting rid of the Kstreet mafia will give voting Americans back the power. The registered lobbyists (over 18,000) control most of our government. What chance does my single vote have against the power of millions of dollars in contributions ??

My opinion, getting rid of the Kstreet mafia will give voting Americans back the power.

Does that also include the SEIU? Let's not forget Obama's #1 guest in the White House, Andy Stern.

You have nothing else, Andrew?

Grunt. I haven't heard another word out of you either.

That's just what I expected.

John Sweeney, I would dare say your short-sightedness says much about you and is probably reflective of your way of reasoning.

scrambolo...Is anyone else fed up with this right and left crappola? It's beginning to sound like pre-Revolutionary Russia. Is it really necessary to divide a country based on impenetrable, inflexible ideology? Isn't having to try to restore the once great country enough work for these loonies?

democrat or republican, the people that ended slavery were predominately white.

The point is you can start something and then think you should be praised for stopping it moron! It should never have existed in the first place!

I would think Africans played a large role in maintaining slavery as well.

Beanhead not all whites started it, my ancestry had nothing to do with it. Many in america back then opposed it. read a book!

rocketfan36, have a blessed day ... God loves you anyway regardless of your faults!!!

I'm an athiest, but thanks

OK, big Al, you probably meant "bigot", not "biggot", and "night", instead of "nite". I have no doubt you or some other deluded liberal will blast my comment with a personal attack; that just shows that neither you, nor other deluded liberals, have any capacity for actual debate.

Well who on earth could compete with your awesome debating skills swamp. My how impressive!