yeah, these HUNDREDS (not thousands) of protesters are a JOKE! they don't have the American people behind them in support. this will only continue to make UNIONs more of a JOKE and more OBSOLETE!

You probably got laided off because you can't spell

Well if correct spelling and grammar was a requirement for posting on Newsvine there would be large numbers of us 'getting the boot'....

Yeah, those prison guards and teachers are really make it hard for corporations to compete.

teo...your rant is completely nonsensical.

The repubs don't want class warfare with taxes but are more than eager to make villains of public workers for being the only Americans to have a pension and decent health insurance.

Note that its the repubs that want to take away peoples rights. The people in Egypt are just a few years ahead of us.

Teo, you ready to haul your own trash, process your own sewage, put out your own house fire, call your spouse or neighbor when you are being robbed and/or raped, teach your own children and do all of this in your spare time? If so, I agree, if not then you are a hypocrite of the worst kind.

Their first order of business (Nationally) was to give the rich a tax break. Now their going after collective bargaining state by state! It doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to figure out these people have an utter contempt for working Americans.

Should we make it a requirement that all candidates come with warning labels, and a listing of contents? That way, voters (if they choose to read) will know they aren't going to have a case of buyers remorse.

Wisconsin.... you bought and paid for this one. The job you save may be your own seems to be very applicable.

Who said they are entitled to those "rights"? They are not rights, they are privileges granted by the legislature, that can be taken away.

Welcome to the real world, the90% of American workers that have to make their own deals, and after all, you are only worth the best deal you can make.

Uh no, They are getting laid off because of not enough government regulations.That is why the entire country is in the mess we are in now! are have you not been paying attention....

more business, less govt.

Yeah! Those fat cats with their 40k a year jobs! They are the reason why we don't have any money, it's the teachers that destroyed America. Now go teach our children!

/sarcasm

How come every political party that comes into the majority goes into "over reach" mode......

This looks like a one term governor to me.

One. That's all I'm asking for. Just one.

The Manhattan project -> Nuclear weapons, ARPANet -> Internet. There's two.

I would rather take a cut in benefits and pension then have my fellow workers lose their jobs. Lost jobs destroys entire families. If lawmakers are taking the same cut then so should the workers

This is hilarious! I used to live in Madison and it couldn't happen to nicer bunch of people. They don't call it Berkeley North, People's Republic of Madison, and 69 square miles surrounded by reality for nothing. I used to fix copiers and two of my accounts were the State of Wisconsin and the UW. I was working in the DNR building, I think it was the Jeff 2 building. I was working on a copier in the mail room when in walks three state workers. Needless to say I was the best dressed (and fittest) person in the room. The three of them start staring at the staff mail slots. About a half hour goes by and finally one turns to the other two and says "I wonder how we should organize these?" I wanted to smack all three of their heads together and yell at them. "How about alphabetically?!!!" Another time I was fixing a copier in the Tourism department. They must have thought I was part of the furniture because one of the state workers turns to another and says "If the taxpayers knew what we did they'd kill us." These stories are the God's honest truth.

Privatise all their jobs and make them requalify for them. Those that do qualify get their old pay back, 401K instead of pensions, and the same health care benefits that the private sector gets. That would be sustainable.

Man, I've got a tear in my eye. I never thought I'd see a day like this.

Do you even know how much your average teacher makes? I would hardly call it greedy considering the level of education they had to attain and how hard their work is.

Do you?

Here in kentucky the average is $49,000, for a teacher with a BA.

That is not underpaid, Sorry

Long live corporations! Down with the working guy!

^this. A perfect summary of many of these newsvine posters...

Here in kentucky the average is $49,000, for a teacher with a BA.

That is not underpaid, Sorry

I highly doubt that considering the national average is $43k/year (http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary) and cost of living in Kentucky is lower than many many other places.

And $43k/year, considering the results we DEMAND from our teachers, is underpaid...

It's a Federal responsibility to address the bankruptcy of the states as it was after the revolutionary war! Budget revenue cannot be solved at the state level and the Federal government is selling out to the Foreign Power of the bankrupt International Monetary System controlling (Brutish) Empire. U.S. needs Glass Steagal protection from the monetary preditors now! Want a cut, then cut the fraudulent bailout swindle exponentially worsening the problem. American People get Cut and the International Foreign Power monetary system get around 15 Trillion this last year.

Why isn't the fraudulent Bailout swindle their priority to cut? The report from the Federal Reserve in response to Senator Bernie Sander’s amendment to the Frank Dodd Bill reveals the American People have shelled out a total of 16 Trillion dollars which went primarily to foreign banks. This involuntary bailout came in the form of asset purchases and currency swaps. Essentially this forking over boat loads full of cash in exchange for so called mortgage backed securities, which as with Bank of America’s case early Dec 2010, are actually backed by nothing. As Senator Sanders said (speaking on record) when this news was reviled “The 700 Billion dollar Wall Street bailout turned out to be pocket change compared to the Trillions and Trillions of dollars in near zero interest loans and other financial arrangements that the Federal Reserve doled out to every major financial institution”. “After years of stonewalling by the Fed, the American People are finally learning the incredible and jaw dropping details of the Federal Reserve’s multi Trillion dollar bailout of Wall Street and corporate America. Perhaps most surprising is the huge sum that went to bail out foreign private banks, and corporations”. Continuing, “Has the Federal Reserve bank of the U.S. become the Central Bank of the World?”

What was revealed in the Fed’s report was through various almost enumerable Fed lending facilities the major beneficiaries were foreign banks, not U.S. banks. When the Fed paid banks to get toxic mortgage backed securities off their books, both Credit Suise and Deutche Bank received about 300 Billion dollars each in U.S. guarantees. When the Term Asset Lending facilities opened their window in 2008 to save these banks the humiliation of going to the regular Fed’s over night window. Six of the eleven top recipients of short term loans were European banks including the Inter-Alfa groups, Banco Santander and Societe Generale.The Fed also disclosed that of the 2.2 Trillion dollar T.A.R.P. bailout 1.5 Trillion went solely to British banks. The Commercial Paper Funding facility gave Briton’s United Bank of Scotland 74.5 Billion dollars overall which was more than twice as much as City gp took. In 2008, London’s Barkclays took the largest amount from another Fed overnight lending program getting just under 50 Billion dollars. These are additional amounts to the 180 Billion dollar AIG Bailout where tens of billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars went to foreign banks including Societe Generale, Deutche Bank, Banco Santander, RBS, Barclays UBS, and many, many more! Other recipients of the 16 Trillion dollars were Morgan Stanley 2 Trillion, Merrill Lynch 2.2 Trillion , City Group 2.4 Trillion, Bear Stearns 962 Billion, and Bank of America 931 Billion. From 2008 when the bailout began the Fed has made 21,000 different transactions with Morgan Stanley visiting 210 times. Also per Feds report Non banks also were major recipients of the U.S. taxpayer bailout. So That's 15 Trillion to Foreign Power Banks and to the PREAMBLE and Article 1 Section 8 of U.S. Government's mandate of responsibility to 'Promote the General Welfare' of the People, well the People get the CUT. The policy speaks for itself and those opposing Glass Steagal protection are acting as instuments to destroy the U.S.A.

One. That's all I'm asking for. Just one.

The Manhattan project -> Nuclear weapons, ARPANet -> Internet. There's two

You can't count one as no organization that wasn't a government body attempted ever to make an atomic weapon. Two, while definitely a contribution to mankind, doesn't count either. How about this, private space companies, such as space x, are going to be able to launch human beings for a tenth of the cost that it take the government to do it.

incompetence of the Republicans from Reagan to G.W. Bush that caused a global economic crisis.

So Bill Clinton gets a pass...<rolls eyes>

magnum serp,

do you expect that to happen based on the 10% of the population that are like you. in the mean time the other 90% will boost Walker's rating and he will easily get re-elected.(ie, NJ Christy's growing popularity and effectiveness)

but good luck with your minority views, majority talk.

In reply to your question regarding efficiency of business versus government, how can you explain that Medicare spends 3% on administrative costs, while 'business' based private insurers spend 30% on the same costs. Where do these cost differences go? They go into the pockets of executives, just as Wall Street bankers continue to reap obscene bonuses for ripping off the small investor and the pension funds/401K accounts that they purport to represent.

Please wake up and realize that you are voting for the very people who take huge benefits from your inability to assess the situation, the candidates honesty, and the direction these individuals wish to take your government, and at the same time reducing the quality of you and your family's life.

NASA = buying hammers at 400 bucks, single screws 100 bucks, Toilet seats 100 bucks.

Fire Dept., Police dept, etc.= elevated union contracts for same product that is provided by private industry.

I own a metal fabrication plant. I am not unionized. I use to be allowed to take government bids, but not anymore. Obama cut my throat with one of his first executive orders. Private companies cannot get government bids. They all have to be unionized or no bid.

That is not underpaid, Sorry

50k for someone with a masters degree is not underpaid?

Dave,

From the looks of it, Governor Stupid has less than 50% support. I look forward to the day that Governor Stupid is voted out of office by the people.

This is why we elected Walker! None of this is a surprise to anyone in the state. His only potential mistake was in not allowing the unions to vote down his pension and health insurance proposals before taking them to the legislature. As Milwaukee County Executive he made a similar request of the local teachers union and was shot out of the water- in that case it was either you contribute the first half of your pension and a part of your health insurance or we'll have to lay off teachers. Guess what, the progressives in the teachers union said screw you, I get mine first and voted the proposal down.

He's asking public employees to contribute slightly less than 6% of their salaries toward their pension plans and 12% for health care. This is a far better deal than most I know in the private sector get and it's not going to break anyone's back- the lack of people flocking toward the private sector because they are so poorly paid and poorly treated is evidence of that. And by removing the union dues requirement and furlough days most of these "increases" are off set entirely. Walker is not reducing benefits. He is not touching vacation and sick pay. Nothing. He's simply attempting to make life for the private sector tax payers affordable in this state!

@TXLibertarian,

How about fire departments?

And for those who are interested in seeing what Libertarians are for, I would suggest you go to www.lp.org/platform.

You will see that the Libertarians are, among other things, for removing all borders and allowing the complete and unrestricted flow of people and money between countries.

You have to remember that Libertarians are far to the left of any so-called liberals.

Hey Burn, let me know when you are putting out your own house fire, and processing your own sewage and teaching any and all own children you have or may have, then we will all know you aren't also a hypocrite. Hoorah for your community, you found a way to get one of the lowest skilled jobs filled by a private contractor. Let me know when you find people willing to risk their lives for people they don't even know and pay them what garbage collectors get paid.

So many posts, so little understanding.

It's always take money from someone else, the rich, the public employees, etc.

The state is broke. Either raise taxes or cut benefits.

In either case, stop whining.

We tried it the public sector union way for decades now...It doesn't work, is not a financially sound way to run anything......

The job pays this much....you want it ??....yes or no....

No, ......OK then, move along, Next in line please....

Yes....OK

Fund your own retirement and pay for your own health-care insurance if you want some....like the rest of the people that are paying the taxes to pay your wages.

AM Ferris, do you have a source for your quotes? Additionally, do you fully understand the administrative costs of private insurance versus Medicare? For example, I work at a small insurance company. We spend thousands and thousands of dollars every year meeting requirements set forth by the government on private insurers. Colorado recently passed a new law recently requiring membership cards to be made of plastic, meet certain dimensional requirements, carry more information that can fit on a card, and be a certain point size. The same rules do not apply to Medicare. Medicare does not have the same requirements the private sector must meet.

So who is able to do the job more efficiently?

Ahh Burn, just read you latest post. The problem is that you are thinking only about yourself and your wallet. That is the problem with this country, the attitude of "I got mine, screw you if you can't get some too, you must be lazy and/or stupid, probably both to not have what I have!" Are you ready to personally hire fireman to protect your structures. Who educated your employees? Who educated you for that matter?

This is a GREAT move by Governor Walker and the state legislature. It prevents layoffs and paying our state employees in IOU's - see California.

Fireman and Policeman are not included in the cuts.

It is about time these folks had to take some cuts in pay. The rest of us had to, and WE pay for THEIR pensions AND OUR OWN!

cost of living in Kentucky is lower than many many other places.

I highly doubt that considering the national average is $43k/year

You know nothing of Kentucky. Most people in Kentucky live in what is called the Golden Triangle, and it is not as cheap to live in Lexington KY as you ignorantly assume, not Louisville, and definitely not greater Cincy. It is called Golden for a reason. The land is EXPENSIVE because of the horse farms, mineral rights, and just plain beauty of the area. Very few Kentuckians live outside this triangle.

This is where most of the teachers are, and they make an average of 49K. It is a fact, 49,332 to be more exact, and that job is no harder tha n jobs making far less.

http://www.education.ky.gov/KDE/HomePageRepository/News%20Room/Kentucky%20Education%20Facts.htm

If you do not know what you are talking about for a fact, shut up.

You probably got laided off because you can't spell

Eff speelign dunt mater two elcet en sinatar fum Alsaka, whi shud eet mater hear?

Congratz Sinater Liza Mircowsky

Yes, ScoMata, but God forbid the wealthy should give up the tiniest fraction of their obscene wealth for the good of the nation. Whatever would they do?????

Sorry, but fighting for the wealthy and cutting the working class to the bone is indefensible.

What? that does not make any sense, the state does not have the money to contoinually increase benifits and pay for these workers at the current rate.

There is no reason to bring bogus class warfare into this, it s a budget issue.

Factofthematter, no disrespect intended, if your into teaching for the money your probably not the best thing to have in the class room. Same for police...firefighters...etc. No one wants to loose anything they have already, in their mind earned. This is going to be tough, not only in Wis but every where. This is just the start if we are looking to "solve " the debt crisis. We all, those of us that have kept what we have thru-out all this have cut alot. No one...no one...should escape this, if you truly have the best interest of our nation, or your state, in mind. We are broke! There is no money! It is the " I dont care what it cost...how much are the payment " mentality that has gotten us into this...Broke...busted...out of money...what is there to argue about?

OK LIBS- try this for a change: instead of complaining about what the evil old GOP is doing these days, how about YOU come up with a budget plan that will rescue Wisconsin?

It has to be a VIABLE plan, by the way. Not your fantasy.......

Money for nothing, and the chicks are free.

High taxes and regulation did this country well from 1940 to 1979. We had the best manufacturing base in the world.

HAHAHA. Yes we were able to tax ourselves into properity. If that was the case, Greece would be the pinnacle of human civilization.

This country was properous in spite of high taxes because the rest of the world's infastructure and manufacturing base was still being rebuilt after being turned into rubble during World War II. While the rest of the world was putting the broken pieces back together, we were making fridges and toasters and were selling them to the rest of the world.

Fact of the Matter: Since when is a BA a Masters degree? LOL



Factofthematter, no disrespect intended, if your into teaching for the money your probably not the best thing to have in the class room. Same for police...firefighters...etc. No one wants to loose anything they have already, in their mind earned.

My point being that they aren't paid enough as is considering the valuable services they render (applies to all professions involved), education being foremost. No teacher I know entered education trying to become rich.

And of course raising taxes is off the table because no one should have to pay for anything apparently.

Assuming these are all government employees (otherwise why protest), just shows how generous their benefits are. They obviously all took vacation to be there, since I'm sure their union would frown on calling off sick to to it. And since Wisconson's government is obviously still functioning, they must not really be needed.

The Manhattan project -> Nuclear weapons, ARPANet -> Internet. There's two.

Both highly inneficient over budget projects involving the military industrial complex and fat government contracts.

THOSE are your examples?

Any of that could have been accomplished much more efficiently using private industry, but the need for secrecy, and the need to feed the DOD resulted in them being government projects.

The public workers should take a cut if and only if everyone Wisconson Taxpayer is willing to take the same cut across the board. If the Union is not allowed to negotiate, then the public should not be allowed to negotiate for their private sector jobs, and service contracts can not be negotiated as well.

I don't see the govenor working for min wage. Are his aids working for min wage? or only interns? WELL????

Another matter, why have min wage then? Heck, we should simply ship in Chinese workers and then ship them back after on behalf of the corporations. So why aren't the loop holes for the corporations plugged???? There are plenty of $ in those loopholes????

Sad, Green Bay PACKERS should be renamed as Green Back Stealers to reflect the state of the Wisconson Politicians. Instead of trying to identify solutions, they use political position to eliminiate political compitition and expand their campaign contribution and power base... PACKERS, taking it like a bunch of grunts.... Without the unions setting a benchmark for worker pay and benefits, Wisconson will loose out their bests and the brightests to their neighboring states...

WHAT A TRIP.

A picture of University of Wisconsin students laying on the retunda floor to protest a LABOR LAW.

Wow, social networking is working so well for the students. I wonder how many of these "students" are public employees and how the "collective bargaining rights of public employees" is affecting them.

Or is this just another means to get out student protestors in preparation for the Day of Rage scheduled in Chicago.

We have seen labor unions involvement in the Middle East and North Africa using students during their "Democratic", "Freedom", or "Social Justice" revolutions to topple governments, now it has hit the shores of the United States.

Is your Google social networking program working well, Mrs. Secretary of the State ???

@ScoMata: I understand that Kentucky takes in more federal money than they pay back in federal taxes. Something like $1.50 for every $1.00 they pay out. They suck up more federal dollars per capita than even states like California and Illinois. Hearing people from a welfare state like Kentucky bitch about how other states handle their fiscal issues is a hypocracy of the highest magnetude.

Genius,

Government regulations don't cut government jobs. Republicans' budget cuts do!

No secret that the right wing wants to knock out Unions and all who might fund the Democratic party.

At the same time, Republican Senators are brazenly in favor of $millions of unlimited, (and voted three times for) undisclosed dollars pouring into our elections from Corporate America. Ask why.

Before the midterms they promised to work on job creation. Instead of that, GOP leaders are focusing on a broad agenda to disenfranchise the working class of America.

Republican House leadership has set up a two weeks on, one week off revolving schedule for themselves in Congress. These are serious breaches of faith with the American people.

I dont understand this "overpaid public sector" employee mentality.

No doubt there are probably SOME people in the public sector who are grossly overpaid, but is the same not true in the private sector?

And why are the Police, Fire Dept and State Police exempt from this roll back? Are they not grossly overpaid too? It appears that Mr. Republican Governor is attempting to bribe one portion of the public sector, while telling the rest they must sacrifice for the greater good.

I dont understand this sick fascination on the conservatives side with slashing everyones wages (including their own, in due time).

Senator (R) Jane Cunningham is seeking to repeal the ban on Child Labor Law...and its interesting, considering ADULTS cant even find work, that we think its NEEDED to add kids under 14 to the workforce?

Its not so weird when you consider whats happening to workers all across america. Or when Alan Greenspan said "american workers need to compete with low cost foreign workers"...

Apparently most of you are excited about the return of extremely low wages, so low that you'll have to force your children into the workforce just to make ends meet for the whole family.

those were the best times in american history right, when workers were slaves...when kids had to choose between an education, or keeping their family financially alive? ahhhhhhhhh, those were the GOOD OL DAYS republicans keep saying they want to take us back to.

No wonder they wouldnt offer specifics one which "era" they were talking about before getting elected.

This is just a precursor. The laws are being written to make all organized labor impossible. Corruption is in the house. Sad very sad

He's taking from the working class so he can afford more tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy. Stay tuned, The budget is being released soon.

Hey !!...would ya stop collapsing things just cause they hurt your feelings or something....nothing said at #1 was a collapsible offence.....

Where to start...

@scomata

Both highly inneficient over budget projects involving the military industrial complex and fat government contracts.

THOSE are your examples?

Any of that could have been accomplished much more efficiently using private industry, but the need for secrecy, and the need to feed the DOD resulted in them being government projects.

First thing, do some reading...second thing...learn how to read...when you try.

The military industrial complex is, IS, private industry...McDonnell Douglas, Boeing, Bell Labs, IBM, etc, etc.

Pay attention to your original point...

@Darryl Blackshear: Name one program that the government has ever done more efficiently or effectively than private industry. One. That's all I'm asking for. Just one.

The bottom line here folks...is that THEY got all of us bickering and squabbling with one another, while the transfer of wealth continues.

Tell me how much sense is makes for us to wish bad upon one group of working people who are getting screwed, because our group of working people already got screwed by the same: THE RICH.

YOU're all being manipulated so try to take a step back and look at the effect of everything that's been going on for the last 30 years. The bottom line is that we're all becoming more and more poor. It's no accident.

...and both parties are to blame, because they're bought out by.....???? THE RICH.

You need to decide right now if you have more in common with your neighbors, your teachers, your firefighters, your office workers, clerks, etc....or the CEOs and Board members who are everyday trying to squeeze the country and its people for more and more.

They're behind the collapse of government.

They're behind illegal immigration.

They're behind loss of civil and constitutional rights.

Government only works if you nurture, protect and manage it well.

We've all failed at that and we're now seeing the consequences...we're all very, very vulnerable. ...but those of you who continue to only believe what you're told by these very same companies, their media, their tools and mouthpieces (read Politicians of both parties)....are even more to blame. Wake up and join forces before it's too late...we all have much, much more in common than we do with them.

"This country was properous in spite of high taxes because the rest of the world's infastructure and manufacturing base was still being rebuilt after being turned into rubble during World War II. While the rest of the world was putting the broken pieces back together, we were making fridges and toasters and were selling them to the rest of the world."- Miller Time

You make my point. Thank you! The Marshall Plan help rebuild some of the most successful economies in the world in Europe and Japan! Instead of manufacturing a military industrial complex, we helped them with roads, buildings, food, medicine, etc. THAT, Miller Time, is the basis of the world economy at its best! But when profiteers (21st Century Robber Barons) decided money and profit was more important than manufacturing serviceable goods, things started to go in the crapper, slowly at first, but gaining speed by 2008. Now our Military Industrial Complex is the largess of our national debt. It produces NOTHING. It is the bulk of our "trade" to other nations. President Eisenhower warned of this reversal of industrial focus and what it would mean if we did not continue to focus on goods rather than weapons. Again, it's in the record. Try reading a bit.

Before answering, please look at what really happened in the 1920's and post WW 2 in the economy. The New Deal put PEOPLE back to work after the greed of the 1920's nearly wrecked this country beyond repair. But deregulation outsourced our jobs the last 35 years. The so-called "private sector" was encouraged through Reaganomic/Bush/Clinton tax breaks and record profits for shareholders to merge and move offshore.

The small businesses (who employ 80% of the work force) have also been a victim of Trickle Down economics as well. They cannot compete with the larger Wall Street/Corporate lobbies and their world economic strings! Main Street businesses dried up as the larger corporate fish merged and got fat and happy. If anybody thinks Wal-Mart is a success story for American manufacturing and service industry is just delusional. They are the poster child of everything that has gone terribly wrong in government legislation for the rich and powerful...

Hey !!...would ya stop collapsing things just cause they hurt your feelings or something....nothing said at #1 was a collapsible offence.....

It's the Walker henchmen. They also stop collective free speech

Well, the article now reads Thousands and not Hundreds. In fact the last count place peaceful demonstrators / protestors between ten/twenty thousands. Is it still a joke to you?

Remember, this is Wisconson, not New York. This is not a hardcore blue state by nature. So you comments is proving that their have voted in the WRONG PEOPLE.... Oh, the govenor called in the National Guards. Hmmm, isn't that State using Federal resources. In addition, aren't many of the national guards work as teachers and/or public servants?

Liz, you do not know what you are talking about.

Those projects let out contracts to private companies, but the DOD far outspent those contracts with government waste and payroll. Huge numbers of DOD, military, and hybrid workers drove the cost of those projects thru the roof as did government requirements that were not needed had the been developed in a private vacuum..

No different than NASA letting contracts to Boeing, which does not eliminate the NASA budget on top of it.

You can keep your insults to yourself, it just means you are not sure of what you are saying, so don't embarrass yourself.

Some questions for those who are against these people giving up some pay. Are these people not in the same boat, as the people who pay their wages through taxes? So why don`t they understand, that the tax payers can not afford a tax increase? And if they can`t raise taxes, where do they think the money will come from? Anyone? I am just wondering, because I can not understand why they would want to make things harder on the ones paying their wages, when it is rough enough on them now.

Most of the time I notice, that the dumb f**ks who rant against public employees like fireman, police officers, etc. and their unions are the ones who are too stupid to get a job in the public sector, and would rather be working for some s***hole company who pays $11.00/hour instead of putting their mind to it and getting a job that can protect the worker from the GOP and their war on the working people in this country. How dare these $40k a year public employees who work for the state try to bargain with the state to keep their jobs, and the benefits they have worked for.

If you want to spill your misguided vile hatred for unions, do it to PRIVATE sector unions all you want, the ones that have turned greedy the last 25 years.

Why is it so freaking hard to understand that union negotiators do not negotiate in an empty room? Why is it so freaking hard to understand that the people who sit across the table from those evil union negotiators are the people who are elected?

Oh gosh, if you were honest you would have to admit that you were at fault for electing incompetent negotiators. They're the ones who "gave away the store" to the unions.

What are you going to be? A responsible voter who actually looks at the issues and understands personal responsibility or a sniveling victim?

Walker's plan would make workers pay half the costs of their pensions and at least 12.6 percent of their health care premiums.

So it is like my private 401K 100% match program, but the state of Wis picks up more of the employees health care cost. Seems OK to me.

But honestly, I would love it if my employer would pick up 100% of my pension so that when I retire at age 60 or better I can collect 80% of my salary for life.

Of course, that is not reality. Public business can't afford that.

John A: What most Americans do recall are the wildcat strikes conducted by unions during WWII, and the Korea War in critical industries considered vital to those war efforts.

What we also remember were strikers attacking and opening fire on US military troops dispatched to safeguard the property from being occupied by strikers.

We also remember the PATCO Air Controllers strike in the 1980's.

The numerous strikes conducted by teachers, nurses, police officers, fire fighters that placed the American public at risk.

We remember the close affiliation between the American Comminst party and the American labor movement up until the end of the war in Korea. The communist members led numerous wild cat strikes while the US was involved in WW II placing american servicemembers lives and military operations in jeopardy - those wildcats ended only after Germany invaded the Soviet Union - American union workers did not want to impede cthe flow of critical war materiels to their sponsor - the Soviet Union.

Does anyone need a reminder of the corruption in the American labor unions? How many unions were taken over by the Federal GVT to eliminate mob influence. That the american labor unions still have strong affiliations with members of major crime families in the US.

The the American labor unions have poured millions upon millions to the Democratic party as both illegal and legal campaign contributions. Total legal contributions $561,000,000 in 2004 and 2006. Estimates for contributions for the elections in 2008 are incomplete - appears the unions have submitted incomplete information but estimates range from$450 million to $700 million. There are your union dues.

It goes on and on but this is enough to provide an idea of why the vast majority of Americans have historically not supported the organized labor movement in the US. Union member ship today is around 12.3 % with only 7.2 private sector union members - the remainder (5.1%) are GVT employees (State, Local and Federal)

Ternan

Most Americans from WWII are dead and buried. I'm a Wisconsin resident, voted for Scott Walker, and cheer his fortitude. From the top on down however, let everyone in government positions take a 6% pay cut. Tell me why in our shool districts, the superintendents have staffs who have staffs. Come on.

unions negotiate for wages and the members decide-after health insurance gets its portion-where to put wages...on check or in benefits....THEY ARE NOT GIVEN pensions or health insurance..IT COMES FROM THEIR WAGES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So......, you buy the"Trickle-down" theory that was nothing less than a criminal scam. You get sold on the idea, that when the dust settles, you will be among the chosen few at top. Heck, it's a free for all that get in early and everybody is welcome. Your greedy little fingers check every R on the ballot. Liars, thieves, pretenders, you don't care. That R is all that matters. It's gonna get you in an exclusive club and make you rich.

30 years later, most of your friends, neighbors and family that followed you are lying beaten, broken, bruised and hungry in the dirt. They've lost their jobs, retirement funds, the savings for their children's education, homes, cars and all of their dreams. But look at you, you're still hanging by your fingertips. You're gonna make it! Any minute now, one of those Rs that you have supported for years is going to grasp your arm and yank you to the top. Whoa, what's that big heavy boot coming your way.

As your fingers snap and you're in free-fall to the heap below, you look up to see some government workers barely holding on to the edge. Still dazed, you manage to stand upon the pile of others and try to soothe your broken fingers. You look up and shout, "Hey, this ain't fair. Send them down too!" That was the plan all along. Such is the life of a fool, today.

"Do you even know how much your average teacher makes? I would hardly call it greedy considering the level of education they had to attain and how hard their work is." Interesting! The teachers I know didn't get into teaching for the money! They got in for the love of what they do, the benefits (pension, healthcare), they have a much shorter work-day than I do and have a LOT of time off. We in the private sector have NO pension, average 3 weeks vacation a year and work 8:00-5:00 or longer. It's not just the money that needs to be taken into consideration for teachers. We in the private sector pay into our healthcare and 401K. Unions need to go away and let the workers take care of themselves. The unions only care about their dues and getting more union members.

You know nothing of Kentucky. Most people in Kentucky live in what is called the Golden Triangle, and it is not as cheap to live in Lexington KY as you ignorantly assume, not Louisville, and definitely not greater Cincy. It is called Golden for a reason. The land is EXPENSIVE because of the horse farms, mineral rights, and just plain beauty of the area. Very few Kentuckians live outside this triangle.

Everywhere in Kentucky is still cheaper than many other places in this country, especially larger cities like LA, New York, DC, Philly, San Fran, etc. My point wasn't to disrespect Kentucky.

And thanks for the link you provided, had you included that the 1st time when you made the statement I never would have even responded.

Fact of the Matter: Since when is a BA a Masters degree? LOL

While teachers are often initially hired with BA degrees, they often have Masters degrees. In many states and school districts I believe they are required to have a Masters in order to keep their job beyond some point.

We in the private sector have NO pension, average 3 weeks vacation a year and work 8:00-5:00 or longer.

and private sector companies just posted their best year of profits, ever, in recorded history. So instead of spending your time trying to tear down teachers, why don't you ask your company why they are cutting back on benefits while simultaneously raking in ever-larger profits and handing out record bonuses to the CEO and board members?

I did not read the article but I highly doubt that the governor "took away collective bargaining rights" because that would be illegal.

However, the next email of mine will be to MY GOVERNOR - Jerry Brown - who keeps wanting Californians to pay more tax so that we can fund:

CA STATE EMPLOYEE PENSIONS WHO CAN RETIRE AT AGE 50 AT 90% OF THEIR PAY. I CAN NOT BELIEVE THAT CALIFORNIANS AREN'T MORE OUTRAGED THAN I AM. AND IF YOU ARE, WHERE ARE YOU?

unionization is a thing of the past...it has no real use in America today...there are many courses of action that a person can take if they feel they are being treated unfairly in the workplace...it is a pox on America today...try "Waiting for Superman" for a glimpse into the insane structure and scam that is teachers unions in America, and I would also point out that it was directed by Davis Guggenheim, you know , from the liberal Jethro favorite "An Inconvenient Truth" ,so if "Waiting" is as inaccurate as libnut professors say that it is then I would contend that "Truth" is just as suspect

Because I needed to link the article to MY governor, I read it.

I learn something new every day. Since the state granted the workers collective bargaining rights, the state can take them away.

I APPLAUD THEIR EFFORT AND WISH THEM WELL.

In the private sector, MOST employees contribute to their health insurance costs and NO ONE gets to retire at 90% of their salary at age 50.

Davis Guggenheim also did a documentary on electric guitar pioneers.

http://www.sonypictures.com.au/movies/itmightgetloud/IMGL_presskit.pdf

It Might Get Loud.

Unions need to go away and let the workers take care of themselves.

Yes, because of all things our monetary problems were caused by unions and not greedy corporations handing out loans to people who couldn't pay them back. The unions should be destroyed while we give tax payer funded handouts to the people who caused all of this.

In the private sector, MOST employees contribute to their health insurance costs and NO ONE gets to retire at 90% of their salary at age 50.

Yes! In all unions everyone retires at 50 at 90 percent of their salary, which would explain why there are people over 50 at the protest; they're really just protesting from their awesome retirement.

You will be seeing Cairo type demonstrations very soon. If that idiot thinks the National Guard will solve the problems he's even a bigger idiot. Much of the National Guard is city and state workers.

Put them in the prisons? Really bright. As far as Christie's popularity, that's in his own mind. NJ residents are starting to see through his BS.

Jack313... You say

Yes, ScoMata, but God forbid the wealthy should give up the tiniest fraction of their obscene wealth for the good of the nation. Whatever would they do?????

Sorry, but fighting for the wealthy and cutting the working class to the bone is indefensible.

I say... Whatever would they do? What you are ignorant about is that the top 5% of income earners pay 70% of all taxes collected. You must not realize that the lower 50% of income earners only pay 3% of the total amount collected. And... 47% pay No, Zero, Zilch in taxes. Some infact get some of that free Obama money!

What all of these state workers are finding is that "Pigs get fat and, Hogs get slaughtered!" they have gone to the government pocket book too many times. Now they are getting what they deserve!

The real problem is not that the government isn't taking in enough money... It is that the government is spending to much money.

Taxing business's more, or the rich more, is the same as raising your own taxes. Because as a businessman if you raise my taxes I just raise my prices to offset that added expense. At the end of the day I'm going to make a 10% profit or... I close the doors, fire everyone and do something else with my money.

Once again the GOP is trying to follow in the steps of the Reagan Administration and destroy the middle class by eliminating Unions in order to increase profits for corporations. Deregulation and elimination of the middle class only makes the rich richer. Since the Reagan administration corporate profits have increased ten fold, while jobs by the thousands have been outsourced to foreign nations and the middle class income has stayed stagnant. Stay classy GOP!!!

Magnum Serpentine - TX here is your answer... NASA, Social Security, Medicare, Fire Department, Police Department, Army Forces (That is the actual troops ) Since the big wig health care industry keeps people from getting insurance if they are having a baby Then The fact that Medicaid will cover live births when private sector does not which says a lot.

More Uninformed Posts.

US Military - Outsourcing to expensive US Contractors ever since President Clinton's Cut to the Bone Reduction In Forces (RIF) of the US Military that eliminated the cheaper In House US Military Capabilities of: Logistics, Sea Air Land Transportation, Aircraft-Vehicle-Weapons-Electronics and Facilities Maintenance, Communications (including Computers, Networking), Supply, Sanitation (Waste Disposal, Water Purification, Bathing Facilities, Laundry Services, etc.), Food Service, VIP Protection, Construction (including US Army Corps of Engineer Programs/Projects within the US), etc. and basically created the Niches for the US Contractors.

NASA outsourcing to US Contractors.

Medicare's management outsourced to the Insurance Corporations according to President Obama, Face the Nation, September 20, 2009

No, the difference is that they're making huge profits on it, Bob. I mean, let's take the Medicare HMO programs that are being run by insurance companies. It's estimated by everybody that they're overcharging by about 14 percent. This amounts to about $177 billion over 10 years. About $17 billion a year, $18 billion a year. That's just going to pad their profits, hasn't been shown to make Medicare recipients any healthier. And in fact because those huge subsidies are going to insurance companies, Medicare recipients are not getting a good deal. Now if we are enforcing what should be the rules around Medicare and making sure the people are getting a bang for the buck, it's not going to be possible for insurance companies to simply pass on those costs to Medicare recipients because ultimately it's Uncle Sam that's paying for those services anyway.

Note: Why didn't he do anything about this. Because, Payback for Unlimited Corporate Campaign Contributions, his closed door White House Meetings with them before the Bill reached US Congress (also stated in PBS Documentary, Obama's Deal).:

Unlikely ally of health care reform: business
Insurers, drug companies came on board early and may profit from it

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35989945/ns/business-us_business/

Cost of the Health Care Reform Law (Act) to US Taxpayers, 1.7 Trillion USDs. In the current Health Care Reform Law (Act) under the possible source of new revenues section (as included from President Obama's Proposal, 22, 2010) $67 Billion to Insurance Corporations, $20 Billion to Medical Device Industry, $23 Billion to Pharmescutical Industry. Just go READ and Comprehend the F**king things.

THE REAL PREVIOUS WORKING SOLUTION. President FDR's Universal Health Care for all US Citizens, Great Depression till after WWII. This was done by eliminating the Insurance Corporations out of the Medical Profession. The result was a cost decrease of 80% for Medical Treatments. The last vestiage of President FDR's Universal Health Care for all US Citizens is what US Congress has for $42 per month (Unlimited, including "experimental" Medical Treatments). The "Health Care Insurance Exchange idea was a joke, those are at loss special rates in exchange for Political favors, not available to anyone else including Insurance Corporation employees.

Decreases cost 80% (last part of video 1:40) by Doctor David Ores, New York.1:45

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5247963n&tag=contentMain;contentBody

John A.-400474,

How quickly (conveniently) most people forget (do not research) the History of the US Labor Unions. As the majority of the Henry Ford Era US Labor Unions were destroyed by the 1929-1939 Great Depression. Prior to WWII President FDR Suspended ALL US Labor Union Activities, Nationalized US Industry, started shipping (selling) US Military Equipment to England prior to US Entry in the War at Europe (an Act of War).

During WWII, it was believed that the "New" US Labor Unions using the old Henry Ford US Labor Union names (for public sentiment, association) were believed to be formed by "Italian Organized Crime"; this was proven when they Striked during the US Military Liberation of Sicily and Italy. Many of the Italians in the US especially those in of the "Italian Organized Crime" still believed in Mussolini and the tactics of the National Socialist German Workers Party (aka NAZI) as to what the New US Labor Unions were based on (join or no work, join or beatings, killings, etc.), as the activities of Hitler and Mussolini got them out of the Global Great Depression (people actually starving to death) years before the US.

That was the Psychological Profile (attitude) from 1930s to 1940s, along with the anti J-a-p Attitude as stated by William Randolf Hearst (control of most of US News Media, majority Stockholder Standard Oil of California, and claimed to have "Made" the US President). Most of this can be seen in the 1930s to 1950s archival film footage, especially the "News Reels" presented before the "Feature Film" in US Movie Theaters.

When the US Labor Unions Striked during WWII as Organized by the "Italian Organized Crime" President FDR Ordered the US Military Police (not National Guard) to end the Strikes, including Deadly Force, resulting in the machine gunning of the Strikers.

After US Industry was Nationalized, during WWII, the US War Department, conducted a Study to decrease the catastrophic accidents at Ammunition Plants and Factories, this resulted in the Federal Mandated 40 Hour Work Week, Wages, Benefits, Some Workplace Women's Rights, Sunday off for Religious Workship (Christians), Saturday off for Religious Workship (Jews, they originally wanted Friday and Saturday), etc. were also established during WWII. Since all US Industry was Nationalized, all the Federal "Rules" pertained to all US Industry.

The History of the US Insurance Industry is not exactly great either, as "Organized Crime going Legit", as Arsonist Tommy the Torch sells "Business Insurance".

After WWII the President FDR Suspension of US Labor Union Activities were lifted allowing "Organized Crime gone Legit" to take 100% Control of the US Labor Unions (their Muscle), this is why later movies and books chronicle the "Organized Crime" as the "Money", "Organizers", "Muscle" for the US Labor Unions of the 1950s to now. "On the Water Front" (1954), "Last Exit to Brooklyn" (1989), "F.I.S.T." (1978), etc. in that the Organized Crime Formed US Labor Unions use National Socialist German Workers Party (NAZI) tactics (actually Italy's Mussolini counter part of the NAZI Party).

FactOfTheMatter - Yeah! Those fat cats with their 40k a year jobs! They are the reason why we don't have any money, it's the teachers that destroyed America. Now go teach our children! /sarcasm

Yeah, and you failed to count all their benefits (making their pay more than 40k per year). And if they (teachers, previously I was) were so smart how come they allowed their Representatives (US Teachers Unions, US State Government Employees Unions (in some cases)) to negotiate low balling their pay (yep Teachers are really smart). US Education System = Fail, non competitive Internationally, note as not to just B!tch, I already posted on other Newsvine Forums (Topics) how to Repair the US Education System based on International Education Systems that Work, (beating the panties off the US).

/NOT SARCASM. As eventually it will be these future adults that will be responsible for you in your old age (already heard comments like, "throw their old wrinkled arses on a deserted island for them to fend for themselves, so we do not have to pay social security or medicare for them" (hint: social security comes out of the recipients paychecks, same with medicare, we cannot help that US Congress thought that this was their own unlimited Piggy Bank not US Taxpayer paid contribution funds (funding their own Social Security and later Medicare.). When I was a Teacher I asked them (my High School Students) what "old" is they said anyone over 40.

Burn-1511074 - NASA = buying hammers at 400 bucks, single screws 100 bucks, Toilet seats 100 bucks.

Ok, so you are saying that NASA, can buy cheaper stuff from China instead of the high priced stuff Made In the US by US Labor Union controlled manufacturers, and the same for the US Military so we can go against US Code (Law) Must Buy US Only Products, Goods, and Services (without approval of US Congress as exemptions).

By the way about the US Military buying non-sparking hammers for use on ammunition (you go around hitting crap with a regular hammer while working azzholes and elbows deep on High Explosives and see what you get). And as far as Bolts not screws, as in explosive bolts, ask yourself how much just one of those bolts costs (redundant to in sure 100% function or the stage and ring do not separate, aka catastrophic missile failure, explosion, low order detonation). As far as non splash back toilet seats as used on US Military Combat Transport Aircraft, that might have to do tactical evasive manuvers, you have a sh!tty day without one, again you could allow us to buy the cheaper Chinese or Russian Federation manufactured ones. As far as NASA's Space Toilets think about urine and feces in a Zero Gravitation Environment (guess you are not thinking).

AS FAR AS WHO BROKE THE US ECONOMY. It was the Repugnants, the Democraps, and the Independs (in Adult Diapers). But ask yourself who had more opportunity and why it is not being fixed/repaired.

Since 1945 Democrats have controlled the the House & Senate 21 terms to Republicans 6 ( Or 42 years to 12 years ). Democrats have controlled the House, Senate, and Whitehouse 11 terms to Republicans 2 ( or 22 years to 4 years ).

This does not include the Demoncraptic Party Control from 2006 to 2010 (Mid Term Elections).

THE NUMBER ONE REASON THE US ECONOMY IS BROKEN.

Elimination of the Glass Steagall Acts, that made Illegal those Causes of the 1907 Depression, and the 1929-1939 Great Depression. It was after years of attempted Regulation that failed, 1907 to 1933, that finally the Causes were figured out put into a Bill and US Congress had balls enough to pass the Glass Steagall Acts into Law. From 1933 to 2000 the Glass Steagall Acts worked. After President Clinton (Demoncrap)signed the 1999 Gramm Leach Bliley Act (Repugnant), and the 2000 Modernization Act (Bipartisan), eventhough the Congressional Research Service told him not to, this eliminated the Glass Steagall Acts (Laws) and Legalized those causes of the 1907 Depression and the 1929-1939 Great Depression. Those that knew the opportunities (profits) to be made with this Legalization, started to work (including forming organizations to prevent these activities from becoming illegal again).

Things are not instantaneous (law eliminated and then economic effects felt), nor immediate gratification.

In 2008, the results were felt as they ended up with profits of 60-100 Trillion USDs and triggered the "Global Economic Crisis" consisting of the "Financial Crisis", "Mortgage Crisis", "Banking Crisis", "Credit Crisis", "Wall Street Crisis", etc..

The Demoncraptic Party Controlled US Congress passes the November December 2008 Billion USD Bailouts to buy the January 2009 Electoral College Votes (as Billions USDs do not pay for 60-100 Trillion USDs)(reference Businessweek article pertaining to Bailout Recipents physical locations, coorelation to Electoral College Votes (physical locations), doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out).

Yes, Bush got a small piece of that (reference Businessweek article)Bailout but again the majority of Bailouts were for the Demoncraps (buy Electoral College Votes) Physical Location of Bailout Reciepent for Bush (Businessweek article) for Electoral College Vote:

8. University Park, Texas
Share population in finance and real estate: 18.83%
Nearest large city: Dallas
Population: 24,582
Median Household Income: $110,976

As, "Mr. Corporate America" (Demoncrap), is the former Senator from Delaware, after abandoning being the Senator for Poor Coal State of Pennyslvania. He was smart enough after losing his Presidential Campaigns to figure out Delaware is the Key to "Corporate America" (Unlimited Corporated Campaign Contributions). Prior to the 2008-2009 Elections he received nearly a Billion USDs from each Corporation. In 2010 his people briefed (Legal Brief) the US Supreme Court about Unlimited Corporate Campaign Contributions, otherwise the 2008-2009 Elections would be declared illegitimate (invalid) for Violations of the McCain (yes, that one) Feingold Bipartisan Campaign Reform Law (Act). After the US Supreme Court decriminalized most of the Law with their Ruling, and for admitting how much money (in violation of the Law) he received in Unlimited Corporate Campaign Contributions, 2010 he was fined $200,000.00. His major Campaign Contributors and Constituents (even today) are (I warned you all about him before):

(My List from 2005) Delaware: Freddie Mac, Fanny Mae, Bank of America, Wilmington Trust, First USA / Bank One / JPMorgan Chase, AIG, Citigroup, Deutsche Bank, Barclays plc, GM, Chrysler, Wachovia, ExxonMobil, Chevron, ISDA, and those States with Corporations Incorporated at Delaware.

Over 50% of US publicly-traded corporations and 60% of the Fortune 500 companies are incorporated in Delaware;[1] the state's attractiveness as a corporate haven is largely due to its business-friendly corporation law. Franchise taxes on Delaware corporations supply about one-fifth of its state revenue.[2]

1. Delaware Division of Corporations
2. Delaware Fiscal Notebook - State General Fund Revenues by Category

AGAIN. In order to obtain the January 2009 Electoral College Votes (YOUR POPULAR VOTES DO NOT DETERMINE THE PRESIDENT AND VICE PRESIDENT OF THE US) the Demoncraptic Party Controlled US Congress HAD to pass the November-December 2008 Billion USDs Bailouts as "Time Sensitive" (no Public Scrutiny). again these bailouts did nothing to payoff the 60-100 Trillion USDs of the current "Global Economic Crisis" (above).

This is why I strongly believe that the Electoral College MUST be eliminated as defeated by being bribed, gerrymandering, and the 2010 US Census (*note: it was a US Census Bureau Policy change demanded by current administration not change to the Laws that enabled counting Illegal Aliens (against Federal Immigration Laws). I warned all of you before and continually contacted US Congress, US President (received form letters back, saying not going to happen, well it has happened.).) counted the Illegal Aliens (way the Illegal Aliens determine US President and Vice President, Voting (influence) thru Electoral College).

*California could get nine House seats it doesn't deserve because illegal aliens will be counted in 2010.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204908604574332950796281832.html?mod=djemEditorialPage

NUMBER TWO REASON WHY US ECONOMY IS BROKEN.

Most Favored Trade Nation Status For China (in exchange for Chinese Campaign Contributions, aka "Chinagate" during his Impeachment, and people worship him, "I did not have sex with that woman" (his sperm on her blue dress)(note ask him where the $5 Billion Haitian Aid is donated to his Foundation, do any of you know what the "Interest" on $5 Billion USDs is). The Free Trade Agreements and Amendments that Legalized "Outsourcing" of US Jobs, US Manufacturing, US Technology, etc.. Note: Prostitution (oldest profession) is a "Service Industry" (that all of you want to become by your inactions, letting the Free Trade Agreements and Amendments continue, (inactions) actions speak louder than words.).

THIRD REASON THE US ECONOMY IS BROKEN.

Over 23 Million Illegal Aliens in the US.

Classic Example: Bankrupt Illegal Alien Harbor State of California (California Government 2009 Statistics, the 2010 Statistics are still being "collated", and are intially worse than 2009).

a. California spends over $10 Billion USDs per year on Illegal Aliens Public Assistance of their yearly Budget of $85 Billion USDs.

1. The defeat of California Proposition 187 by the Attorneys of La Raza (US Taxpayer Funded) set the Legal Precedent for Illegal Aliens to receive US Taxpayer paid Public Assistance.

2. Since 2008 the Illegal Alien Advocacy Groups like La Raza, M.E.Ch.A., etc. have stated "Cashfor Work Only", "No employer paperwork" (more deductions, less pay), as to do otherwise results in more apprehensions and deportations. Those Illegal Aliens that did not listen, some were apprehended or had to flee to other States as employer paperwork was used during the 2010 President Obama Immigration Raids. In otherwords State Criminal and Federal Felony Tax Evasion (same why US Government ended up owning Las Vegas. hint: "What happens in Vegas, does not necessarily stay there".). No State or Federal Revenue in, while a. above.

b. Previous Legal Attempts to stop the "National Threat", 1). California Propostion 187. 2). President Bush's 2006 Illegal Alien Act, first reviewed by US Supreme Court as 100% Constitutional, later watered down from apprehensions and deportations by US Congress to Amnesty, defeated when US Congress chickened out fearing for their lives (terrorism) during the Illegal (no permits, disruption of traffic, trade and commerce (felony)) 2006 Nationwide Demonstrations of over 23 Million Illegal Aliens. Organizers of the 2006 Nationwide Demonstrations of Illegal Aliens, Illegal Alien Advocacy Groups La Raza, M.E.Ch.A., etc. were correct "US Congress, Americans have no balls", en Espanol.

3. Current US Policy pertaining to the over 23 Million Illegal Aliens in the US and future Illegal Aliens.

a. April 2009, President Obama meeting with Mexican President at Guadalajara, Mexico. When asked about securing US Borders by Mexican President, as Mexico using Mexican Military to secure southern Mexican Borders (shoot to kill). President Obama, "US Military will not be used to secure US Borders". Before some uninformed poster says something, the National Guard (State Militia) is not the same as the Federal Active US Military that has to adhere to the Posse Comitatus Act (that does not only pertain to the "Quartering" of US Military, read the whole Law).

b. August 2009, President Obama meeting with the Mexican President and the Canadian Prime Minister at Guadalajara, Mexico. President Obama "US Military will not be used to secure US Borders".

c. August 2009, as stated to the Associated Press by President Obama, Guadalajara, Mexico, the Amnesty of over 23 Million Illegal Aliens in the US:

And immigration remained a sore spot. While Obama has said he'd like to start crafting an overhaul that legalizes millions of Mexican immigrants, there's little chance of Congress acting this year, since even top administration priorities like health care and climate policy are moving slowly amid heated partisan debate.

5. Terminology.

a. The Illegal Aliens are NOT Illegal "Immigrants" as stated to the International News Media (Documentaries, Interviews) they have NO intention of ever becoming US Citizens as the cost of living (especially Taxes) is too high. And hint this Nation was built by LEGAL Immigrants NOT Illegal Aliens.

b. The Illegal Aliens are NOT "Undocumented Workers". 2009 California State Government Statistic (see the over $10 Billion spent on Illegal Aliens each year, at paragraph a., above; it is expected that 2010 California spent over $15-$20 Billion while their yearly budget of $85 Billion decreased, due to Illegal Aliens Tax Evasion (more money to send "home".)). One Illegal Alien Works and Ten Collect Public Assistance (expected 2010 Eleven now on Public Assistance of some form, the "Recession" (Depression) hit them too).

By the way the money, "Sent home to feed their starving families" is a lie, the money is sent "home" to be saved by a non financial institution, like a family relatives "shoe box" (not traceable for US nor Mexican Taxes) so that when they return "home" (Loyal Citizen of another Nation, NOT US) they can live like Kings (monetary exchange rate). And they do have their families with them (less expenses supporting their family while collecting US Taxpayer paid Public Assistance). There is also the Black Market of selling Public Assistance in exchange for Cash to send home. (the Federal Govenment needs to clamp down on Money Laundrying, and the Western Union and other "Money Wire Transfers".). We are not talking about nickels and dimes leaving the US as sent external to the US by Illegal Aliens (including the "Russian" and "Eastern European" Mobs) in relation to the National Debt to ForeignNations.

Previous successful Legal (US Supreme Court Constitutional Review) Attempts to apprehend and deport Millions of Illegal Aliens in the US as a National Security Threat. President Eisenhower's Operation Wetback.

This previously set the Legal Precedent pertaining to the deportation of "Anchor Babies" as a Conspiracy (between Illegal Alien Advocacy Groups and Illegal Alien Parents that advise and assist to come to US.) to Commit Fraud against the Citizens of the US, and (once the child is born) Fraud against the Citizens of the US. The US Constitution (read the whole thing, not just the Amendments) pertains to the granting of Rights to US Citizens, NOT Loyal Citizens of another Nations. And in relation to the (current) Modern International Reciprocal Citizenship Laws (a child born of two US Citizens at a Foreign Country is a US Citizen when registered with the US Embassy, examples: a. John McCain, born at the Panama Canal Zone (father US Military), registered with US Embassy, therefore, US Citizen. b. This goes both ways, as Stanley Dunham removed Barry Sorento from her Passport after moving to Indonesia, Legally making him an Indonesian Citizen, as an advantage to her child in the event of an emergency (anti US situations), as also being registered as a Muslim in an Islamic Nation, also by Law Indonesia does NOT allow Dual (split) Loyalties (aka Dual Citizenship) you are an Indonesian Citizen (rights and benefits) or NOT, etc..

The current National Security Threat of Illegal Aliens, is that they are known to be forced by the Mexican Drug Lords to cooperate with the Terrorists (Worldwide Islamic Military aka Jihadists as funded thru Mandatory Islamic Tithes of 1.5 Billion Islamic Believers.). The Mexican Drug Lords for Money provide the Terrorists with Smuggling, Human Trafficking, Money Laundrying, Safe Locations within the US (Illegal Alien's Residences), Intelligence (cooperation of Illegal Alien Gangs), Weapons (US automatic weapons made under license in Mexico for Mexican Military, or smuggled from South And Central Americas by Hamas Foreign Fighters at the TBA (Tri Border Area of Argentina, Brazil, and Paraguay), Illegal Aliens Gangs within the US like MS-13, MS-14, La Familia, etc. also provide Safe Locations Weapons Logistics support, etc. to the Terrorists, Document Forgery, Identity Theft, Transportation, etc..

Many Illegal Aliens (working age) were trained in Military Operations, Tactics, Automatic Weapons thru Mexican National Mandatory Compulsory Military Service. Those that served on the Southern Mexican Border were also trained in Insurgency and Counter Insurgency Warfare versus US Law Enforcement (Police Academy) semi automatic weapons (majority not SWAT trained, as too expensive. Also used if Prior Military Service to get out of being Involuntarily recalled to Active US Military Service or a possible future Selective Service aka "Draft".).

The Terrorists learning from their associations with the Mexican Drug Lords

Al Qaeda Bombers Learn from Drug Smugglers (Defeats Full Body Scanners)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/28/eveningnews/main5347847.shtml?tag=pop

The Mexican Drug Lords did not cut off heads and hands of Journalists, US Citizens, Mexican Law Enforcement, etc. then publicly display them as a warning until after their dealings with the Islamic Believers. Actually takes a lot of time (increased chance of getting caught) and effort to do that, and is effective (terrorism). From the Holy Koran (Quran) Calls to All Islamic Believers to War Against the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers (everone else including "lesser" Islamic Believers, like Peaceful Moderate African Islamic Believers massacred by Arabic Islamic Believers) for the Death Penalty Crimes Against Allah and His Prophet, 109 verses of 114 verses:

Sura 8.12. When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Alliance between Illegal Aliens, Worldwide Islamic Military (Jihadists, Terrorists) and Worldwide Islamic Law Enforcement (Death Squads, Mandatory Islamic Tithe Collectors) due to similar Goals. Also you do not have to like someone to accept their money (Terrorists paying for Mexican Drug Lord Support and Services).

Goals as stated by Illegal Alien Advocacy Groups. Overthrow of US States from within to form Aztlan.

Goals as stated by Terrorists (worldwide Jihadists, Islamic Military). Overthrow of US and Allies (all Non Islamic Nations). More than likely attack a "Soft Target" within the US with a WMD smuggled into the US by the Mexican Drug Lords.

ALL OF THE ABOVE IS COSTING US TAXPAYERS MONEY. The situation is NOT that simple as interrelated systems management approach.

By the way if you do not have the money you cannot spend it, so why is it that you think it should be any different for the US Government, States Governments, Local Governments, etc.. Common Sense is not so Common.

That is not underpaid, Sorry

50k for someone with a masters degree is not underpaid?

Not when they are off for 16 weeks in the summer and 5 weeks in the winter and spring. I would say 50K is quite reasonable for someone who works 31 weeks a year.

This subject sure brings out the best & the worst in participants! ..

~~~~and the usual mixture of "Fruits & Nuts!" to confuse the day~~~~~

"Ever Think You Would Like To Join A Revolution ?"

That is not underpaid, Sorry

50k for someone with a masters degree is not underpaid?

Not when they are off for 16 weeks in the summer and 5 weeks in the winter and spring. I would say 50K is quite reasonable for someone who works 31 weeks a year.

Overpaid FOR SURE. I just calculated the salary if this 31 week worker worked every week of the year. The salary would be $84,000.

OUTRAGEOUS.

It so sad to see people whol lost jobs when companies shipped them overseas attacking other Americans with jobs. You are venting your spleen at the wrong targets. That is exactly what Republicans and corporations want.

Don't blame their anti American worker policies which make it lucrative and extremely profitable to ship your job overseas blame regulations and Unions. Hopefully one day you will see you are being duped by these corporations which have loyalty to no one or no country and their political stooges.

Brava Liz-The-Razor!

A voice of reason reaching out over all the screaming. First it was racism, then communism and in the 21st century it's politicism.

Keep the middle class squabbling amongst themselves while big business rapes the country and turns everyone into serfs with the aid of a complicit government.

Meanwhile back at the Fox vs MSNBC wars, the groundlings bicker over whose talking head is the biggest moron. Wake up. They are all morons. They are owned by big business and they tell you exactly what big business wants you to hear to make sure you continue to vote against your own self interest.

BLOGER-486140,

Proof once again that the US Public Education System does not teach Cognative Reasoning Skills. And you want to give them more money.

CAUSE + EFFECTS (symptoms) = RESULTS.

Read and Comprehend post #1.99.

To Spoon feed you (like required for the broken US Education System):

SOLUTIONS:

1. Reinstate the Glass Steagall Acts, to make Illegal again those Causes of the current 60-100 Trillion USD "Global Economic Crisis". The Chinese retained their version of the Glass Steagall Acts as to why they are not hurting like the US and Allies.

2. Eliminate the Free Trade Agreements and Amendments that Legalized Outsourcing of US Jobs, US Manufacturing, and US Technology. The Free Trade Agreements and Amendments were originally demanded by US Corporation Lobbyists at US Congress to escape the US Labor Unions. As well as the US Labor Unions written opposition to Fully Automated Computerized Robotic Factories/Plants capable of making products with a lower Acceptable Fault Tolerance (the physical measure of Quality), in the 1980s the US Military wanted to build a Fully Automated Computerized Robotics Ammunition Plant/Factory in the US, to decrease the amount of lives lost, while increasing production, and quality (functioning), the US Labor Unions in writing and Lobbyists to US Congress opposed. This experimental (of new US Technology) Ammunition Plant/Factory was then built overseas (still running 24/7/365 producing ammunition better than Canadian Match Grade). After this the US Corporations using previous US Bailout money built Fully Automated Computerized Robotic Plants/Factories at Toluca, Mexico (this is when GM, Ford, Chrysler, stopped being the US "Domestic" Automotive Industry. During the 1990s the US Labor Unions still opposed in writing and Lobbyists to US Congress, so the Corporations started building after President Clinton's Most Favored Trade Nation Status given to China, Fully Automated Computerized (new feature added: Self Calibrating) Robotics Plants/Factories at Machau, China. The Chinese were pissed as they thought these US Plants/Factories would hire millions of Chinese, so the Chinese Government started 1900s Labor Intensive, massive pollution "Feeder" Plants and Factories. After the 2008 Bailouts the US Corporations expanded in China building more Fully Automated Computer Controlled Self Calibrating Robotics Plants/Factories at Shanghai China (go to the GM, Ford, Chrysler Dealership Parts Department and read the Made In Label). (I have a copy of the 1980s US Labor Unions written opposition to building the Fully Automated Computerized Robotics Ammunition Plant/Factory in the US, since I was involved. you can get a copy thru the Freedom of Information Act).

3. Conduct a larger scale version of the successful President Eisenhower Operation Wetback under the Command, Control, Communications, Coordination and Intelligence (C4I) of US NORTHCOM per Presidential Executive Order. 1/4 of all US Assets (US Military, US Law Enforcement, US Intelligence, US Contractors, State's National Guard (Mobilized), etc.) secure the Northern and Southern US Borders. 3/4 of US Assets perform as sweep from Northeast-Southeast to Northwest-Southwest. All US Transportation Assets used for Immediate Deportations. US Military Tribunals (no ambulance chasers, aka Lawyers)(legal precedence that US Constitutional Rights are only for US Citizens, not Citizens of Foreign Nation, President Eisenhower's Operation Wetback, US Supreme Court Ruling).

BLOGER-486140 - Hopefully one day you will see you are being duped by these corporations which have loyalty to no one or no country and their political stooges.

And you fell for all the baloney of "Mr.Corporate America" (a Demoncrap). See post#1.99 paragraphs under THE NUMBER ONE REASON THE US ECONOMY IS BROKEN.

Do I have to spoon feed you his name.

nice try Bloger...not buyin' it

"Walker has argued that the concessions are moderate compared with those suffered by many other Americans during the recession. Democratic opponents and union leaders say his real motive is to strike back at political opponents who have supported Democrats over the years."

Probably a little truth in both statements, but it is definitely time to look closely at public employee compensation. Years ago, it was 'conventional wisdom' that public employees were paid a little less than the private sector, but they were compensated with far better job security.

We need to get some sanity back into that ystem, and allowing public employees to unionize and use their huge political contributions (paid by taxpayers) to elect politicians that will give them big pay increases is an obvious conflict of interest that needs to be changed.

medicare has higher administrative costs then private Insurance Companies is a cool little trick of book keeping done by the Heritage Foundation and yes the same people who wrote the state insurance law for Mitt Romney.

the little trick is easy to explain but few Republicans took the time to really read what was said.

In short the Heritage took the percentage of total amount of money per person rather then a percentage of every dollar spent.

Naturally the formulation the Heritage Foundation used assumes many younger people in private insurance while Medicare is mostly elderly people with more health problems.

If you take dollars spent on medical costs per dollar taken in medicare has half the administration cost of the next less expensive insurance Co administrative costs. medicare administrative costs are 5% and 10% for the next cheapest administrative cost.

Nice lie but one that has been busted many times.

Also, most of the long posts are cut and paste from copyrighted work and the administrators remove all these cut and paste super long posts that the majority will not even read, just cut and paste and cut some more and paste some more till people won't argue with you cuz nobody wants to read the mindless drivel.

Just come to Texas where govt. workers have no rights and the great state of Texas is $30 Billion dollars in the red.

break the unions.... then go after the pensions.....then privatize social security...when will it stop....when the people standing on the corner begging for any work at any pay arent illegals but americans

Start at the Texas northern border and sweep all that illegal mexican trash back across the Rio Grande....That'll save Texans about 10 billion a year...

I wonder what these proposals must be called "anti-union" when they really should be called "pro-taxpayer" ???

It sways the point of the article in a union favored direction before the article is even read.

NoRightTurn
Long live corporations! Down with the working guy!

Jack@sses!

Looks like someone needs to read the article before commenting. So NoRightTurn, or one of the 62 blind followers that voted for that comment....please explain when the American Taxpayers became a corporation.

Good for Wisconsin! The federal government should have done this with the Post Office years ago. The pension liabilities are a major part of our future debt.

Unions were once needed...not anymore. Minimum wage, workers compensation laws, OSHA, state departments of labor, overtime laws, protections against harrassment and hostile work environments, unemployment benefits, social security, etc have replaced the need for unions to protect the workers.

Illinois road workers struck last year....they already get $50-$68 per hour, but were demanding a 5% raise per year for the next three years. I wonder how much that increases Illinois pension debt. Oh, and did I mention, Illinois possibly has the worst roads in the country.

Walmart wanted to build 24 Chicago area, adding thousands of jobs. But, they aren't union so they were not given permits. Way to go Unions!! Great job protecting the workers there....how many people that wanted jobs weren't able to get them because of the unions?

So if this passes, how long will it be before Obama tells Eric Holder to sue Wisconsin?

DAVE- I would disable your CAPS key and up the ritalin.

Other than that- -very interesting!

Tony, Nice propaganda! Stupid, but what's the difference, right? Who cares of it's accurate, just repeat it over and over until the dogs get trained.

said the Dan Rather , fan !

UAW !

PUT AWAY THE BONGS !

So here is the question posed to you haters... If these are such KUSH jobs, why are you working or applying for these. Do you always hate people on the other side of the fence? Sounds like sour grapes to me.

Karen of Los Angeles: I remember you claim that you work in the litigation area. You specifically pointed out that $84K is too much pay for MA. So please tell me why are the Lawyers paid the amount they are paid. If you claim that they are independent, then let us take the corporate lawyers. I don't know many that are paid below $125K. Many are simply JA with a bar certificates. Please note, in real life, you don't even have to have a BA or BS degree to practicing law, just bar.... wait you don't even need that.

Now there are real estate agents, mortgage lenders, financial advisors, bankers, secruity agents, investment bankers. I would venture most if not all at best College educated (not of advance college degree), so would you like to explain why you try to nail the teachers, the educators, the unions to the cross????.

Towing the company lines....

David -

Your posts started off so well, but then... What happened? They turned into typical anti-left rants.

If the country is in such a state of crisis that governors are threatening to bring in the National Guard, then it seems our President should -as granted to him by law - declare a state of national emergency and invoke martial law.

thturd...

I don't know of many "corporate lawyers" who have 180 day work schedules...besides, they are paid by clients who agree to the price, not by taxpayers forced to pay for others for things many cannot afford for themselves.

reuse...

It would be ironic if our union licking president called in the National Guard to get schoolteachers out of the statehouse after refusing to send them to the border to try to reduce the numbers of illegal aliens walking into our country uninvited.

First Egypt, then Iran and Yemen...and now Wisconsin !!! Armageddon must be here ! Will the schoolteachers start throwing rocks next ???

I hope the protests come to the union-kissing state of Connecticut next. Our new governor "told" us yesterday that our taxes will be going up by one and a half billion dollars... and that he would "ask" the state employee unions for concessions.

Taxpayers get "told"...government union workers get "asked".

And I don't want to hear that "government workers are taxpayers too" because their pay increases always outpace their tax increases. Most private sector employees cannot say the same.

tony: corporate lawyers are generally in-house lawyers within the corporations to oversee guidelines involving the corporations. They also hire outside attornys, who are not associated to the corporation except on per case / per contract basis. Corporate lawyers generally make less than outside attornys, because they like to have job security and a fixed income.

Outside attorney earns from $150 to $350 per hour on the average. So a hardly working new lawyer earning $150/hour, works 4 hours per day will earn $156,000 annually. If the same new lawyer earning $150/hour works regulary, then they would be earning $300,000. If this lawyer have any experience (trial and/or specializations) then they would be looking at $250/hour and on up... I don't know any lawyer with Federal law background asking for anything less than $300. Federal involves things such as Trademark, copyright, and other Federal laws.

So a hardly working lawyer at $300/hour earns approximately $600,000 annually. Hardly working lawyer means working (charging) 1/2 of the regular 8 hours day.

NOW, YOU mentioned "180 day work schedules." I don't understand why the 180 days work schedule reference. If you are think 180 days for teachers, then you are wrong. Teachers work more than 180 days per year. If you're trying to be cute counting only weekdays then in reality average Americans work 240 days, just 60 days more. I hope you're not here trying to spin FACTS!!! http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary Average median wage is around $43K. That translate to approximately $57 if they work year round. But the job only pays 9 months.

So if they need summer jobs if they want to make more $. You will be surprised as to how many teachers work along side their high school students at summer jobs. Many take the 3 month off, to blow off steam.... Why? Because they hang around YOUR KIDS 7 hours per day for 5 straight days... Assuming you're a day time working parent, then you probably arrive home at 5pm, and spend the 5 to 10 with your kids... Well that is 5x5=25 hours per weekday in comparison to 35hours per week day with your kid. Now mulitiply 35 hours x 27-30 kids per class....

Yes, you may not think they are over paid, but I surely don't. If anything, I think many good educators are so UNDERPAID for their contribution to our society. These teachers spend more time (interacting) with our next generation than parents. THAT IS ASHAME, unfortunately that is life in USA as our wage value decreases and now both parents have to work to help support their family... People laugh at the immigrant families with both parents working 2-3 min wage paying jobs. Ask yourself, how different are they really from us?

Be a man, stop whining about other people making more or earning more. I could have swore the Tea Party and the Republican told those UI receipients, GET A JOB. So I would say the same to you whinners and haters... GET A JOB.

You don't like your low paying or low benefit private sector job, then grow up and get another job. Or go wash dishes for less than min wage or go wait on tables for tips or go deliver pizza... Why are you any different than anyone else? HYPROCRITES.

th...

Outside of what...9 actual national holidays, I take less than 2 weeks off per year. I earn a very good earning from my own labors.

My new governor, who I did not vote for because he is a union hack, just presented his buget and taxes are going thru the roof in a horrid economy. Sales taxes, income taxes, gasoline taxes, and so on and so on and so on. And then my new governor says he is going to be "asking" our government's union workers if they with offer concessions. Union leaders are all over the news, basically telling him...and us...to go crap in his hat.

I see this Egyption inspired protest in Wisconsin and figure a group of selfish nutballs like that will soon be waving their signs in my state. Each year I have the government directed luxury of putting less and less away for my own retirement while sending more to the state and to my town so that "those" workers can have their retirements bumped up and guaranteed for them.

If you have a teacher in your family who earns that $43,000 state average...send them to my state where that figure equates to 'starting pay' for a new teacher.

And having a work schedule of 240 days per year versus 180 days per year is not "just" anything...it is an increase of 33% in the total number of days worked...."just" does not apply to that large of a difference.

I'm scratching my head here...trying to figure out the last time I was home from work at 5:00 !

@ScoMata: I understand that Kentucky takes in more federal money than they pay back in federal taxes. Something like $1.50 for every $1.00 they pay out. They suck up more federal dollars per capita than even states like California and Illinois. Hearing people from a welfare state like Kentucky bitch about how other states handle their fiscal issues is a hypocracy of the highest magnetude.

The only thinking of high magnitude is your ignorance. Kentucky has a very low population. Kentucky also has a MASSIVE transportation system because it is a crossroads. If you had ever looked at a map, and it is clear you have not, Kentucky is covered with Interstate and parkway highways that are cut thru solid rock and require a lot of maintenance.

Almost the entire length of the Ohio River is in Kentucky, there are locks and dams every few miles that service barge tows that are as big as some small towns. Huge amounts of money goes into maintianing this system and all the bridges across the Ohio.

Add to that all the internal lakes and rivers that are dammed up in KY BY THE FEDS that require constant attention.

Most of the money coming into KY is transportation money to support federal projects that benefit the entire nation.

BTW, Kentucky also has a blanaced state budget, and needs no federal assistance going forward.

Before you go off on silly tangents like that, educate yourself.

Downing Grover,

Everywhere in Kentucky is still cheaper than many other places in this country, especially larger cities like LA, New York, DC, Philly, San Fran, etc. My point wasn't to disrespect Kentucky.

This is a common stereotype so I wont be hard on you, but this is so not true.

Fayette and Woodford counties have some of the most expensive real estate in the world. This is a fact.

Arab royalty, the former US British ambassador, and even William Shatner all call Woodford county their home.

The local real estate section here for 1 mil and above would blow your mind. The reality that the state has such a low population and pockets of poverty often skew the perception and reality is missed altogether.

Hre is another mind blower, only 3-4 cities in the country have a higher per capita Bachelors degree percentage than Lexington-Fayette.

Yah, lets give workers plenty of rights. Of course there will be nobody to hire them because the private sector will be out of business. The government will have a worse crisis then it does because no one will be paying taxes. But the workers will have rights. Guess you never learned much about economics in the government propaganda schools did you?

Rights are not granted by the government.

indigo2: I agree.

bob5ford: May I ask what you do for a living? I'm just wondering why this would not affect you and why you have that opinion.

Your right, ScoMata, they are not granted by the government, they are pre-exsisting, it is up to the government to ensure that those rights are not infringed upon, most of all by the government itself, which is what the governer of Wisconsin is trying to get out of, enforcing the protection of worker's rights

Head this garbage before, Did not buy it then don't buy it now!!!

BOB.... guess you never learned about child labor laws, sweat shops, or accidental death and dismemberment in the workplace, or workplace safety.......or if you did, you would rather ignore them in your quest for the almighty dollar.

A new brand of cheese going around Wisconsin, "Fascist Cheese".

Keep protesting, it's your right under the constitution.

These state workers do not have a right to the high level of benifits they enjoy, they bargained for it, and it can be taken away legally.

Unions were developed to protect workers from unsafe work environments and unscrupulous corporations, the types of things FlyNavy mentions above.

Why on earth would government employees ever need a union?! Is the government that bad that they force their employees to work in sweatshops?

To all of you morons stating it was the Republicans who gutted banking regulations you better look at who pushed that mantra. There were democratically controlled Congresses involved, the president who signed the legislation was a Democrat and the person who orchestrated it now serve in Obama's cabinet. You might want to learn something before you yack.

As for the rest of the comments about rights being taken away, anything bargained for is a contract. Contracts cannot just be wiped away by legislation because the Constitution prevents ex-post facto laws.

indigo2

Who elects these dolts who want to remove workers rights?

talk to your local union rep.....

Indigo, you do realize that it is the middle class who suffers most when tax rates increase, right? We have had a number of businesses pull out of the state because of a hostile business environment brought to us by our last governor which means our tax base has shrunk. There aren't enough "rich" people to tax here to close the budget gap so the middle class is going to get hit right along with the wealthy. We work hard to make ends meet and it's made harder by having to pay the kinds of benefits our state employees have demanded over the years. 6% toward a pension and 12% toward health care is a darn good deal. The voters of this state pay the raises the state employees negotiate, why shouldn't we be allowed a referendum vote if they want an increase higher than the cost of living increase? Its more than many of us have seen in recent years.

Something tells me it's going to be a long hot summer in both the states and our nations capitals.........

If some would like to read the facts, instead of proscribing to the myths being spread by politicians -- see the links below for the results of two studies. And there are others that say the same thing: Public sector workers, when taking into account education/hours/wages/benefits are paid LESS than public sector workers for comparable jobs.

Are Wisconsin Public Employees Over-compensated?
Jeffrey H. Keefe, Rutgers Professor
February 10, 2011

A national study by the non-partison Economic Policy Institute

Chris-335678 seems to have the right answer: I would think the bargained benefits were part of the contract. If they can be legislated away instead of negotiating, then it opens the door for all contracts to be negated through legislation. Bad road to head down....

Sean, I have to ask since you were berating others about not reading newspaper between 2002-06. Do you understand what you read in those news paper columns?

What exactly does the Democrats control? The Congress? If you mean that the Democrats had majority in both Houses does not mean that they get to do what Democrats want. Second, it was during these times that Republicans had nearly quadrupled the fillabusters and 8 x times the threat of fillabust. In fact the Republicans voted in Unison nearly 17% of the time. Now please tell me how many times when you get a group of 40 people that all will have the EXACT same perception. Finally, going back to the majority of the Congress. Having a majority does not mean you set the budget. The Executive branch set the budget!!! This the reason why so much of the deficit exist. RX programs was passed, but never paid for. The tax cut was passed and never paid for. Oh yes, declaring war on 2 nations... wait, Congress did not do that, but our President did...

Just because one carries a roll of newspaper, doesn't make one smarter (UNLIKE WHAT GOP SPIN MACHINE TRIES TO TELL YOU). Why do you think GBeck writes on the board??? He is passing himself off as a teacher. I guarantee you that guy, Glen Beck, can't even pass a High School Teacher exam on any given day.

No secret that the right wing wants to knock out Unions and all who might fund the Democratic party.

At the same time, Republican Senators are brazenly in favor of $millions of unlimited, (and voted three times for) undisclosed dollars being poured into our elections from Corporate America. Ask why.

Before the midterms they promised to work on job creation. Instead of that, GOP leaders are focusing on a broad agenda to disenfranchise the American middle class.

Republican House leadership has set up a two weeks on, one week off revolving floor schedule for themselves in Congress. These are serious breaches of faith with the American people.

Everyone of you bashing GOP this GOP that, You need to take your blinders off.. The state is in a HUGE hole ( much like a lot other states ) what exactly is wrong with asking the Public Sector employees to do EXACTLY what the private sector does.

Did you even read the article, or did you stop when they mentioned he was a Republican Gvner?

He is asking them to pay for half of their pension, and a percentage of health care. Exactly what is wrong with that? I actually work in the Public Sector guess what, I already do both of thoes. Not a single person in the city I work for has recieved ANY kind of raise for two years now to avoid lay offs..

SO what would you rather see, 6,000 people laid off due to the state being broke, or would you rather see some of your bennies go away, take a small pay cut and still have your job?

What I see here, is a bunch of whiney public employees who want everything. Fine, you dont want to pay your share?? heres a pink slip..

THERE is no more money left...

So all the private sector workers who are paying 30-50% of their health care premiums and probably don't have a pension but can pay into a 401k are supposed to feel bad about this? All while wearing many hats. In case any of you aren't aware most private sector jobs have cut heads and have less people doing all the work which also equates to less payroll taxes collected by the state.

The private sector tax dollars are paying these employees and what I would like to see is an honest days work come from them. They have more paid holidays than most. And when it comes to public workers, let me change that to laborers because I don't want to include teachers although we could, the do as little as possible for their ridiculous pay. If every government employee put in an honest days work we could cut staffs by 30% or more and never skip a beat.

If you don't like it leave and get a private sector job. You will find out rather quickly that your government job with no collective bargaining is still a lot better than private sector job requiring the same skills.

We have created a rock solid entitlement society.

thturd

You really need to go back to school if you think that the executive branch sets the budget..

CONGRESS controlls the purse strings of this country.

In a nut shell...

The Budget of the United States Government is the President's proposal to the U.S. Congress which recommends funding levels for the next fiscal year, beginning October 1. Congressional decisions are governed by rules and legislation regarding the federal budget process. Budget committees set spending limits for the House and Senate committees and for Appropriations subcommittees, which then approve individual appropriations bills to allocate funding to various federal programs.

After Congress approves an appropriations bill, it is sent to the President, who may sign it into law, or may veto it. A vetoed bill is sent back to Congress, which can pass it into law with a two-thirds majority in each chamber. Congress may also combine all or some appropriations bills into an omnibus reconciliation bill. In addition, the president may request and the Congress may pass supplemental appropriations bills or emergency supplemental appropriations bills.

To all the teachers, social workers, cops, firemen, garbage collectors and other city, state and federal workers in the United States who voted for Republicans - congratulations. You got what you wanted.

Retirees get ready, because the GOP hack and slashers are coming after you soon.

Let them stop the bill and then see how happy people are when he cuts thousands of jobs. I've worked as a teacher and as an employee for the Dept of Revenue and I can tell you that there are a lot of employees who completely take advantage of their "safe" jobs, putting in the minimal amount of work necessary and eating up tax payer dollars. Our education system needs retooling and perhaps taking some of the power away from unions is just the thing to start it. I worked with teachers who were not successful at reaching students or running a classroom and it was the knowledge that they were union-backed that they were able to continue with their lazy ways. Last thought, if government workers don't like it - then look for a different job. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people on the unemployment lists that would be happy to take your positions.

I agree completely Jeremy #2.21. I see nothing wrong with contributing towards retirement funds, health care and other benefits. YOU are no different than those of us in the private sector. Been doing what you're asked to do for YEARS now. Time the gravy train stops Wisconsin. At least you'll be saving jobs of you colleagues.

so ya kicked out the Dems so the Repugs could come in and "fix things" for ya, huh?

just wondering.... how's that new Republican majority YOU ELECTED working out for you lately, huh? Seems to be a lot of voter regret going around these days, huh?

There they go, protesting and whining. Completely oblivious to the reason the governor has taken these steps, which is; “the state is broke”. They protest and rant and rave saying things like “families are being attacked” and other such drivel. They apparently live in some fantasy world where there are rainbows in a sunny sky 24 hours a day.

They find reality disturbing and refuse to acknowledge it. It seems a few posters here also live in that fantasy world.

Just side note. Teachers are well compensated considering they work 14 weeks less every year then the rest of America. So its not 43k a year, its' 43k for 9 1/2 months. Teachers know this going in and THEY CHOOSE this career. If they wanted to make more money, they would choose a different career. Stop telling me that they are underpaid. Their choice, no one made them become a teacher. We can look at almost every job and say that they are underpaid. Compensation is perception. One teacher may think their pay is great and another may think it stinks. THEIR CHOICE! Everyone knows how much they will make before choosing a career, live with it.

Just curious - all you conservative, economy geniuses:

How well does an economy function when 90% of the people holds10% of the nations wealth, and 10% of the population holds 90% of the wealth?

For example, if you took 100 people and each of them had $1 dollar. John who has 1 dollar needs his roof fixed, so he goes to Jim who fixes roofs - he gives jim his $1 to fix his roof. John now needs to earn a $1 again, so he finds someone who needs their car fixed - because thats what John can do. 90 of the 100 people operate this way, they do work for others and have others do work for them, all is well and good. 10 of the 100 people decide they dont want just $1, they want more than that. So, instead of having people do work and spending their $1 - all they do is work for others, and collect everyone elses $1 - until all 10 of them have collectively $90.

The other 90 people suddenly realize this, but its too late. 10 people now control the fate of 90 other people, and in addition to that...they've no decided that any work done is worth $.20...not $1

Suddenly, the 10 people holding all the money - who before refused to hire workers for anything (and let everything they had go to ruin) now have a ton of work that needs to be done, but conviently for them...only have to pay 1/5th the cost. And they are so smart, that they never hire 1 person for more than a few jobs, never allowing any of them to do what they did - stockpile the money in order to gain power.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHERE WE ARE TODAY. And given the way republicans are desperately trying to roll back the New Deal...and Jane Cunningham (Sen- R) is attempting to end the Child Labor Laws...you'd have to BET this is what they want. A massive workforce DESPERATE for work, but wages in which it requires the ENTIRE FAMILY to work just to stay afloat.

Granted, I dont believe this is what MOST republicans or conservatives want, but this is exactly what they are going to get. I guess we really do envy all those 3rd world nations and dictatorships in which the people have no voice, no rights, and are just slaves for the taking.

Ken "Just side note. Teachers are well compensated considering they work 14 weeks less every year then the rest of America. So its not 43k a year, its' 43k for 9 1/2 months."

You clearly dont know any teachers do you? Otherwise you'd know during the school year, they work 7 days a week - most of them 10 hr days. So lets do the math my friend: 70 hr work weeks x 9.5 months = 2660 hrs.

The average worker works 40 hr weeks, 50 weeks a year (2 weeks of vacation). Thats 2000 hrs

In addition to that, many teachers are required to take classes over the summer to keep their accrediation up.

"Teachers know this going in and THEY CHOOSE this career. If they wanted to make more money, they would choose a different career."

It's not about wanting to make more money, its about not wanting to do that job for less! If we dont value our educators, what do we value? CEO's making massive grossly obscene paychecks, then bellyaching about a higher tax rate, so then we have to slash teachers wages so that the ultra rich dont have to be "burdened"? *face palm

"Stop telling me that they are underpaid. Their choice, no one made them become a teacher. We can look at almost every job and say that they are underpaid. Compensation is perception.One teacher may think their pay is great and another may think it stinks. THEIR CHOICE! Everyone knows how much they will make before choosing a career, live with it."

What do you do for a living, just curious?

Ken-1083668

Just side note. Teachers are well compensated considering they work 14 weeks less every year then the rest of America. So its not 43k a year, its' 43k for 9 1/2 months.

Thats not 100 percent true Ken..

My mother just retired from teaching for way too many years..

Yes she got summers off, if you dont count the mandatory classes she had to take. You are wrong in the area of her pay. She took less each month to recieve a paycheck every month. So yes she got paid all year and technically didnt work all year. Her paycheck was smaller to get the paychecks all year.

If that makes any sense.

Ken, I also wanted to add...do you really think it makes sense to encourage EVERYONE to not become teachers because the pay is @!$%#?

I guess if you want an even more mentally challenged america, its a great plan. I thought we had enough stoopids walking around, but according to you...we apparently need more.

Who needs a "good" job when we can have really great, and really crappy! there's no need for in between!

I pay 5% toward my 401K from each check and 10% of my health premium why should they have it better than me. I am sorry what the state government is asking is not out of line, I am glad they are protesting it is their right but I hope they lose.

seems to me that things are getting bad enough that a revolt could start sooner than anyone thinks. if it does.... think Egypt, only millions in the street protesting. Politicians are so "bought and paid for", a revolution is about all that will put an end to this hypocrisy.

Suzy, you do realize that the middle class tax rate is at its lowest in 50 years, right? You also do realize that thhe middle class rate is at its lowest for the top 10% at its lowest in the past 50 years as well. The difference is that the middle class differs by 1-2 % from the 50 years average. While the rich is much greater.

I believe someone recently did a study that if all pay 1% more then the yearly deficit will be gone. If all pay 2% more then the overall deficit will decrease. Then if the economy improves, then the deficit situation will greatly drecrease. Because of the functional relationship to employement and pay rate. (I am not exact on these numbers, but I am certain that someone who remember the article details better can better inform us).

Let's see...Unions supported Obamacare and getting it forced on the nation then turned around and applied for waivers to get out of having to participate for some of their members.

Obama called out a school in Denver during his State of the Union as a success story (going from worst to 97% graduation in 3 years), he neglected to mention "It was the first school in the state to be granted autonomy from district and union rules.

Each teacher then had to reapply for his or her job. A published report said only six teachers remained." [source: http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/26623356/detail.html]

Interesting article from 2007 The Economist: http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2007/02/do_unions_increase_productivit

2009 The Heritage Foundation: http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2009/05/what-unions-do-how-labor-unions-affect-jobs-and-the-economy

And I have a couple of family members 1 who had no choice when their library staff went Union (and she still has to pay to the Union for the "benefits" she gets which is not all of it she actually loses out). The other is a Firefighter who happens to be a Conservative and was "threatened" at his place of employment for his wife not having a "pro-Hillary" bumpersticker on the family mini-van and was told it could not longer come to the station house. What is up with that?! Last I checked this was still a free country.

Why is it that the cast majority of union represented people are public employees?

The budgets of states are being busted by the bulge of these employees that everyone else is forced to pay for thru higher taxes. Unions don't care about that. Union employees don't care about that. Politicians don't care about that. They want to blame everything on the wealthy and not their own greed for more $ and less work.

Jessica-1170252 2.29

I am also just curious. Apparently you are one of the “from those according to their ability to each according to his needs” types.

Taking you at your word regarding that 10% holding 90% of the wealth, how well does the economy function when the top 5% pay more taxes than the remaining 95% combined? Where would your beloved dregs get their entitlements were this not so?

Yet, it is you and others like you that think the answer is further taxation of those mean old wealthy people. Yep, that’ll solve everything. Are you familiar with the parable of the goose that laid the golden eggs?

Shadow, if she feels that strongly about being in the Union, then she can quit? It is a free country. It is a free market. It sounds like the majority of the people at her work place did not trust their employer in regards to their raises and their benefit. If she wants out then she can quit. If she wants her fee applied elsewhere, then she can voice her opinion and run for union official seats. If she isn't doing such then she really doesn't believe in the voting system. It is no different.

As for the fire fighter story, give me a break. If there is any truth to the story, then the wife can take it up to NAACP. Their civil liberty will get to the bottom. I have a couple contacts, you can send me a message and I will send my contact to talk to the fire fighter's wife, the station chief and the city.

The hysteria, incessant whining, the mind numbing stupidity, the unending mis-information and lies and half-truths that is spewing from you liberals is absolutely hilarious. I truly do thank the GOV of Wisconsin for for "stroking" out lord knows how many of you as you twist and turn in convulsions saand provding some comedy relief on line for us. LMAO

Wet Wily, "the goose that laid the golden eggs" was not the top 10%. This is not Mexico, and the last time I checked our pledge of allegence did not read "The Corperations of United States."

The goose was the American middle class. The Democrats has always pushed for higher tax on the rich, because this way, the rich will re-invest their profit to avoid taxes!!!! The rich don't really pay taxes, you see. They have accountants and tax advisors to help them maximize their returns so that would be taxes will go into areas to generate more profit. When tax rate for the rich is lowered, it actually increase their incentive to take it out of the re-investment loop so that they can take a more gamble, because it would generate a greater return (our finaicial / realestate bubbles) and into securities (where they only pay 15% tax).

You see, you're the one don't get it. And now, we get that you don't understand.

Tenan: we areabsolutely delighted that it took less than a month for him to bribe the firefighters and looking stupid. Of course not in your eyes, but Wisconson voters now know what a fool that they have now put into position of power... hahaha

I want to know how many of these people drove Hondas, Toyotas, Mazdas, and everything else Imported there and how much Imported things are in there households,and they are worried about there money, and where it comes from when they did not care where it went, when there spending habits let there money go out of the country to Imports just say this " It's all about me" ten times. And after that say" look out for number one" ten more times

Gadhafi's government sought to allay further unrest by proposing the doubling of government employees' salaries and releasing 110 suspected Islamic militants who oppose him — tactics similar to those adopted by other Arab regimes in the recent wave of protests.

if these union workers are hopeing for the same thing as this, they have another thing coming, Wisc doesnt have $, it is broke, lol.

More uninformed nonsense about US Labor Unions.

Go read post#1.99.

By the Way you can obtain your own copy of the WWII US War Department Study to Prevent Accidents at Ammunition Plants and Factories under the Freedom of Information Act (where I got mine). Regarding the 40 Hour Work week, the numbers of hours worked per day, required number of hours of sleep, Sunday and Saturday off, Safety Conditions, Fire Extingusher requirements, etc.. All of which the US Labor Unions had nothing to do with before World War II, and definitely did not have anything to do with since President FDR suspended All US Labor Union Activities prior to and during WWII. These Federal requirements became standard throughout the US since President FDR Nationalized All US Industry.

See post #1.99 about the origins of the current US Labor Unions, from the 1950s to now.

These are not big daddy rich bags trying to squeeze dimes out of working joe. This is a state that has no money, because the money from the private sector is not coming in. People are not working in the private sector at high enough rates to pay the state income and other taxes that fund this state government.

I live in an affluent suburb and our teachers union gave themselves 6.5% raises in 2008 and 2009. Then they sought a tax increase for pay increases in 2010. It was a landslide loss. When a news reporter asked them why they gave out the 6.5% raises each year, the Superintendant indignantly said, "It was in our contract." The reported asked her if she regretted the raises since the county and district were in a deep recession and she said, "I never would have dreamed the tax wouldnt have passed."

These people need a wake-up call.

thturd, I agree with your post. I don't understand all of this confusion. Since the time when only 2 people existed on this planet( both creationism and Darwinism support that it started with only two), there have been two sides to humanity. One side that wishes for total control over the other in self-interest and the other that knows that both must work together to assure survival of the two.

Since there are several billion of us on the planet today, the latter must have prevailed and been proven correct. Absolutely nothing has changed concerning this condition since then.

We only have to look at the success and failures of past civilizations to prove that point again. Those that provided the largest share of the wealth to the masses experienced massive growth in military strength, the sciences, exploration and philosophy. Those that hoarded most of the wealth in the hands of the priviledged few experienced rebellion, disease and eventual self-destruction.

As complicated as our political and financial problems may seem today, we need only reduce it to this basic concept. Ignore those that would cloud the issue with such technical and professional expertise that they try to speak over our heads. It's a ruse. We are not children that understand only baby-talk.

As a nation, we are where we are today because far too much of our resources and hard work have been delivered into the hands of the priviledged few once again. Some may wish to argue this point, but it is indisputable. The evidence surrounds us. Looking back at who or what caused this may be helpful in the future. We don't have time for that luxury in the middle of a great storm that threatens our nation.

All of us must focus on those leaders with the will and intelligence to restore the balance that made our country great. We heard promises of jobs, jobs, jobs from liars.Their recent actions deliberately took even more jobs. We heard promises of restoring prosperity and the American dream to all as their first act was to shift even more millions into the hands of the priviledged few. Will we continue to play the role of fools because we are too fat and lazy to stand for ourselves? Will we take a stand now to demonstrate that the blood in our veins reflects the blood of the founders and the many brave sons and daughters of America that made the ultimate sacrifice for our freedom?

We don't need no stanking unions. Lets get back to the good old days when you got to work 60-70 hours a week all for straight time minus what you owed the company stores. OSHA who needs it getting killed or maimed on the job opens up an opportunity for someone else. We don't need pensions, lets wok until we die , and we can die quickly because we don't have health insurance. Once again opening up opportunities for other folks. As for vacation you don't get paid for doing nothing. And the can't work until you are 18 Bulls**t, no wonder we can't compete with China and Mexico or Bangladesh. We have those stupid child labor laws. Just think of the tax dollars we could save if children started work at 10 years old. We wouldn't have to have teachers or schools. We need to go back to those good old day. If it was good enough for my grandpa its good enough for me.

Johan you are my man - except my grandfather who came from what Donald Rumsfield called the "old country' - did work two jobs - sent his children to schools - and I as a granddaughter - got a college education - could afford to send my children to college - $1,600 a year room and board , now I see my grandchildren with debts od $35,000 t0 $45,000 a year .
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Thturd 2.41

You’re right, I certainly don’t get it and I don’t think I’m alone in deciphering your rambling and contradictory post. Consider just one example in your post where you say the rich don’t really pay any taxes. You say this despite the undisputable fact that what I stated in a previous post that the top 5% (the rich?) pay more in taxes than the other 95% combined, but according to you they don’t pay any taxes.

Are you perhaps one of those that pay no taxes and lives off of the labors and generosity of others?

What’s it like in that twisted little fantasy world you inhabit?

Eric-2189088

Your right, ScoMata, they are not granted by the government, they are pre-exsisting, it is up to the government to ensure that those rights are not infringed upon, most of all by the government itself, which is what the governer of Wisconsin is trying to get out of, enforcing the protection of worker's rights

So what you are saying is that the State of Wisconsin is overriding OSHA, repealing their workers compensation laws, taking away unemployment, removing minimum wage, ignoring child labor laws and overtime laws, dismantling their Department of Labor, stopping their unemployment benefits and doing away with social security???

What rights are you talking about that workers are losing?

thturd, If they don't want to pay the "fee" then she has to quit her job and that isn't fair to someone at a certain stage at life and had been employed for decades before the nitwits at her place of employment voted by a very slim margin to go Union.

And the firefighter story is true. The station supported Hillary (then Obama) as the candidate. Why would this be a surprise? It is common knowledge that Unions make donations to the candidates they want to endorse without thought of how their members may want to vote and do not like it when their members go against the leadership.

And word has it that not all membership agree with fighting Walker on this bill.

Read the letter here: http://michellemalkin.com/2011/02/17/watch-wisconsin-part-iii-a-state-government-employee-speaks-madison-schools-plus-7-other-districts-shut-down-a-second-day/

Johan is right.I don't know why some people can't figure out that the more you make, the more you're taxed.If the unions take a hit on their wages and benefits,their taxes taken out will be lower and YOU will pay more to make up the difference in lost revenue. The unions will get a tax reduction and the working poor will see their taxes go up.Who do you think pays the highest taxes now? More tax revenue is good,No?

Unless you are an idiot,you could think that corporations will pay it to make up the difference just to screw unions.Furthermore,like someone said in a previous post,why don't the whiners apply for work in the public sector, so they won't have to complain about being broke?

Maybe they are not as educated by some dumb teacher or they are afraid they might have to fight to keep their wages someday and don't want to take a day without pay to strike?Or maybe they are afraid to get the ax by the taxpayers.Some people aren't afraid to work these jobs to make things easier for you and me.Let's have a do nothing for anyone society.That will work.More money for civic arenas and casinos, and less on education.

Quit crying about being low pay and no time off if you don't want to stand outside and fight for it like some people with balls.

If you think that standing by yourself gets results,you shouldn't be on here whining.

Opening a small business that closes abruptly is a risky deal for some and the taxpayers usually bail them out of bankruptcy,even after small business loans and tax breaks.

Live in a flat in a bad part of town?No stores or Cops?No car?Do something about it.Teach your own kids! Why pay teachers to babysit your kids while you are working? Hire a babysitter.Hell, teach yourselves and see what a good job you'll get without a degree.Quit watching tv all day and figure out how to get that raise, before they cut your wages.

Maybe when Obama tried to help create better paying jobs, he should have created service jobs instead of high paying manufacturing jobs that most working poor can do.Look in the mirror people to see who's lazy and won't sacrifice their time to bargain collectively with their employer,whether it's working for Uncle Sam or the private sector, which will be attacked by the lazy slobs that want everyone else to suffer like they do....Those people are on the wrong side,they just don't know it yet. The people of Egypt are already asking for higher wages, so don't even go there about revolutions.

At least the "idiots" would have been smart enough ,not to get busted ,smoking the weed at lunch ,3 times !

Hey ! Knee breakers ! PUT THE BONGS AWAY !

Jessica-1170252,

Throwing money at the Broken US Public Education System does not work.

Throwing money at the Broken US Public Education System did not work in the past, present, nor future will not work either.

Example of the past: I attended Public, Private and Schools Overseas. I have seen firsthand what worked, what did not work, and what can work. Not just the narrow view of what currently exists in the US.

And many years later as being a Teacher, I realized that I worked in a Broken System, that followed the Peter Principle ("In a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence"), in short because I was not a F**K UP or SUCK AZZ, I went no where, so I went back into the US Military as an Officer (Trained and Experienced Leader from since the 1970s (Selective Service) and was Teaching Nuclear Physics.).

Present. You really should ask President Obama and previous US Presidents why they send (sent) their children to Private Schools (why the Politicians created the "Voucher System"). And do not say Security as many had/have worse Security than some Public Schools (some of us (US Military) were on special attachments to Secret Service, sounds really impressive; but "special attachments" in this case is Guard Duty.).

Then there are Charter Schools and Home Schooling.

Internationally there are Public Boarding Schools that produce Graduates that beat the panties off those of the US Public Education System and some US Private Schools. Examples are those Countries that are at the top of the International Education Ratings (with the US near the bottom).

Future: The US cannot afford the current US Public Education System Waste (Frauds and Abuses). While from a consumer (US Taxpayer) point of view producing inferior products (the question is, would you buy that product. Well you have and are.).

An example of people buying that inferior non competitive Internationally Product is:

demmie-1555521,

Simple lack of Mathematics, cognitive reasoning skills.

Using Bankrupt Illegal Alien Harbor State of California as an example:

As US Taxpayer Money (including Property Taxes) Collected as Revenues from everyone. Equals 85 Billion USDs (US Dollars).

Over 10 Bilion USDs is spent on Illegal Aliens Public Assistance (not counting Public Housing, WIC, Food Stamps, etc..) EACH YEAR. The majority of that 10 Billion is sent "Home", not used in the US (they with their families in the US live off the other parts of Public Assistance). 10 Billion dumped on the National Debt each year to Foreign Countries by Illegal Aliens "sending money home".

So that means (optimistically) 75 Billion is left.

Pull out the calculator. To calculate the rest.

Just like in most cases for Private Business, 70% or more is Payroll, the first place that Private Businesses cut when necessary.

With many States Privatizing Garbage Collection, and many other Government Functions, based on "Competitive Bids", lowering their expenses.

Unfortunely, just like the US Automotive Industry, the Legacy Costs of Cadillac Retirement and Life Time Medical Insurance eats up most of the Budget. Reference the GM and Chrysler Congressional Bailout Documents (were the Bailout money if given would be used). This is the same as many of the State Proposals requesting Funds from US Congress (Bailout of States). Library of Congress, Congressional Record. Just to force everyone to READ and COMPREHEND the Bailouts of GM, Chrysler I am not going to spoonfeed all of you the numbers, you figure that out, to give you an Idea how much the States spend on those current and previous Cadillac Retirement Plans and Life Time Medical Insurance (included not excluded from the 70% of current Payroll/Business Expenses).

Then there is that money (Federal) coming into States for Projects/Programs and US Military (including payroll for hundreds of thousands of US Civilian Jobs). With many stating cut the US Defense Budget without realizing that means laying off the hundred million US Civilians in the US Military. Cutting the US Contractors (about million US Civilian Jobs). Decreasing the US Military (less than a million, thrown on US Unemployment). Chopping the US Army Corps of Engineer Projects/Programs in each State (like before Katrina, Dams, Levees, Dredging Streams and Rivers, etc are done by the US Army Corps of Engineers, who could not since their Budget was cut pre Katrina, the money was reallocated to dredging and rebuilding beaches at
Kennebunkport, Maine for political reasons (Congress determined, reason why Congress was embarrassed by the US Army Corps of Engineers Testimony during the Katrina Hearings.).). Basically, there is no more money for the States for US Army Corps of Engineer Projects/Programs (go research what they are responsible for), everyone wanted US Military Defense Budget Cuts so there you have it.

Bottomline: Once you have done all the simple Mathematics, demmie-1555521, you will figure out that the States do not have the money anymore.

Negating the first part of your post. And that one person's taxes does not equate to the total of their pay and benefits. It is the TOTAL of all Revenues (all US Taxpayer Taxes) and a percentage of that total, that equals that person's paycheck and benefits.

In my other Newsvine Posts on other Topics I stated the History, the Problems, and the possible solutions for the US Education System.

The OUTSTANDING (extreme sarcasm) Reality, is that within the US Education System most "Teachers" are Academics teaching things (their personal Idealism, Utopias, etc.) that are not based what is going on in the Real World compared to some Nations Education Systems that the Teachers go on sabbatical to practice what they teach for a year or more; so that when they return they can modify their Lessons without threat to their Tenure to enable them to teach relevant (current) things that can be considered as "survival skills" for their students/nation's future. (In the US, see if you can modify a Lesson/Class to make it relevant and see if it does not be used against you and maybe revoke your Tenure). The US Military did this to me, as Teaching Nuclear Physics then assigning me to see firsthand the down and dirty Reality of Nuclear Weapons with the Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces (INF) upon return to the "School House" I was the OIC/Branch Chief and started rewriting all the courses to reflect what I had seen in the Real World.

Before anyone says it I was also guilty of pushing Idealism, Utopias, etc. as a Teacher and knew that I was not the only one (polling other Teachers to gain my own information). After all my College Major was Philosophy (Logic) and minor Psychology. Things are not as simple as everyone likes to label, examples like stated in many of the posts: Unions are not always for the workers, Democratic Party does not always mean pro Democracy, Republicans are not always "Big Business", etc. and all the other non Reality simple labels that many believe in. I had a rude awakening when I was trained in the Integrated Systems Management Approach, MS Degree, thru US Government, US Military and NASA; you start to find out things are not just "Face Value" (ulterior motives, political influences, etc.) when you finish connecting the dots.

Shadow: If she does not agree with her fee, then she can quit is absolutely correct. Her union is providing her and her co-workers with serivces and benefits. The benefits include better hours, work enviornment and voice with management. The union provides the little workers with a voice against management. I am in the management (executives). I am utterly against having Unions in my work place. That is why I pay my staff well. That is why I go over and beyond for my team (at least that is what I think). However, if the threat of Union is not there, do you seriously think I would pay as much in compensation and benefit. I am going to measure it against my competitions, and most likely they will be lower as well. SO LET US BE HONEST. Union is not perfect. Business is out there to make money. And everyone is replaceable!!!

Wet Willy: Sorry, read my handle. Calling me names or accusing me of stupid things doesn't phase me. I probably enjoy your life much better than you enjoy yours. Like everyone else in this country, I would like to pay ZERO tax. However, I live in reality and off the generosity of others. Heck, you probably work for me. I pay you min wage and you are gratified. In fact, I payoff a lobbyist to push for State to match Federal min wage standards, then I can make another couple mil. You are darn right, I live off the generosity of others. You have a problem with that? Be greatful you even have a job and the right to pay for your benefits because I gave you a min paying job. You should be thankful that I haven't shipped your stupid job overseas where I pay 1/4 the amount and 3 times the output...

As for you wanting everyone to pay the same amount taxes... Heck I am all for it. You pay $10, and I pay $10. Not a prob, You kept the difference of $90 while I keep the difference of $1,999,990. No, I don't have a problem with that. %%%%%%%%% is a rate, not an amount. Of course if you make more you pay more. It is no different than investment. You invest more then you have a greater risk or a greater payoff. So duh, the more profit you make, the more tax you pay. Hence the rich pay more amount of taxes. Obviously, Bush's no child left behind program left you behind.

NO WONDER YOU DON'T GET IT.

It should be pointed out that the rich did not account for such amount of tax 30+ years ago (prior to 1980). The middle class actually actually paid a huge chunck of the taxes.

thturd

Geez, this post is even more incoherent and rambling and even more delusional than your last one. You are definitely off your meds. Please do yourself a favor and call 911 now before you do harm to yourself.

and who would support your "revolution"? Do you realize that you are a member of a very minor group in this nation of 300 million+?

Grow up, get a job, support society and maybe you whiners will want our leaders to be responsible with OUR money. This nation was not founded on the principle that the lazy should be rewarded like those working.

I am 61 years old and I have had a job since I was 19 and continue to be employeed. You GOP are so insufferably arrogant - you need to get a heart and a brain.

Janet - Let's put you as governor of Wisconsin. Are you going to tax more to give people more that everyone else has to pay for? Someone is going to get pinched. More taxes is going to hurt other people. Less benefits is going to hurt government employees - but there are a lot less of them than people that vote.

Wisconsin isn't as bad off as California, New York, and New Jersey. California and New York - run by democrats are up to doing the same things that New Jersey (run by a Republican) had to do to fend off insolvency. What makes you think Wisconsin really is any different?

janet,

your post to start off this string only shows that you are gullible and have bought into the BIG LIE. you don't like to think for yourself, do research, or and come to your own conclusions.

ie, that "enslave women" MYTH is SO opposite from the truth. R/Conservatives so obviously promote and support women politicians and DEMS like to belittle and demean women.(like Brown calling Meg a whore) heck, obama had the lowest wages for women on his staff as a senator than any other politician. this only changed after it's discovery and he had to "look good" for campaigning.

We are already slaves thanks to the liberals.

The liberals have made us all slaves to the Fed with their spending spree that has resulted in no jobs (unless you count the new 169 new federal government agencies created with Obamacare, or the new IRS agents to go after tanning bed salons).

Since Obama has taken office, our federal government has doubled in size.

Don't talk to me about slaves. Liberals are the taskmasters.

SHows how off center the GOP has gotten... Forget about all the working stiffs out there.. Name ONE GOP congressperson pushing for a middle class tax cut.. minimum wage.? forget about it.. Anything that benefits minorities , women, children, forget about it..

The middle class already got a 3% tax cut under Bush and now a temporary 2% cut from Obama.

No more is justified, and I am a conservative.

and you can't talk to dems

David-1102226 said ***R/Conservatives so obviously promote and support women***

Must be why they tried to pass the bill about rape not really actually being rape... sheesh. That was just days ago.

And this meeting about worker rights was in 'secret'. Why?

Nonsense. We must get our public employees back in line with the rest of the working population. They have too much control, too many perks and re bankrupting our system. Unions should be abolished

(I know, I am going to get jumped all over. But i am thick skinned).

Patrick - Liberals are the taskmasters? You really got your right and left confused. Better see a doctor about that, it may actually be covered now! As a former Badger it's about time that a right-wing know it all governor gets yelled at. These tea-baggers are the ones who think they are in charge - well as a commie pinko liberal we'll see about that.

When corporate CEO's make legitimate wages (like say $130,000 a year) then I might talk about reducing bargaining for unions.

Why should all the corporate profit go to the top and not to the workers that made the business a profit to begin with.

I can't believe how easy it is for Republicans to get people to vote against their own best interest! Reading what some of you are posting hear is so sad it is not even funny! We can afford to give the rich a huge tax cut but we cant let teachers keep their pension? We must cut the deficit, But we must continue to fund a jet engine that the Military does not even want? We deserve what we get! SEE YOU ALL IN THE POOR HOUSE!!!!!!!

well said!!!!!!!!!!! Not going to get jumped on by this one

Eric, why so envious of CEO's

Does a football player really deserve 10 million a year for 16 1 hour games he might pay 40 minutes each in?

Does a recording artist really deserve 10s of millions for the result of one hour in the studio?

Hypocrite.

You deserve the amount you negotiate for, period. Your emplyoyer has rights too and you have to abide by that part of the deal too. Its not a one way train.

Envy has no place in it.

We are already slaves thanks to the liberals.

The liberals have made us all slaves to the Fed with their spending spree that has resulted in no jobs (unless you count the new 169 new federal government agencies created with Obamacare, or the new IRS agents to go after tanning bed salons).

Since Obama has taken office, our federal government has doubled in size.

Don't talk to me about slaves. Liberals are the taskmasters.

LOL, maybe you should look up national debt by President. Sure Obama is spending a lot right now, the economy sucks and tax revenue is very low, but he didn't create this mess. It's hard to blame him for the national debt when it was just over $12T when he came into office...

If you're a State or municipal employee and a member of a union, I already know what you think. But as the employee of a municipal union (who receives no benefits), I will have to work until I am 70 to maybe receive all the Social Security benefits I will be entitled to. My employers can retire at 59 with a full pension and great benefits; my taxes go to pay them. Employees of my state need only work for 20 years to receive their full pension and benefits. I certainly appreciate what these people do; however, the problem is that I -- and other people who are not represented by unions -- can lose my job, thereby eliminating the revenue stream that supports Federal, State, and municipal employees. They can't or in actuality, never do! At least they should have to work as long as those of us who are paying them in order to receive their pensions. And yes, they pay into their pension funds, but the largest portion comes from state taxes. Also, the State pension fund gets an approximately 18% return! I don't have any investments that do that.

I liked Republicans before they hooked up with the Religious Right zealots. Government needs to stay out of my business, my bedroom and my body. I don't care if you're a Democrat or a Republican...just leave me alone.

who re you going to tax more? the people who dont have a job? or the people who will be put out of a job faster because the state isnt going to pay you jack? take your pick...

I can't believe how easy it is for Republicans to get people to vote against their own best interest! Reading what some of you are posting hear is so sad it is not even funny! We can afford to give the rich a huge tax cut but we cant let teachers keep their pension? We must cut the deficit, But we must continue to fund a jet engine that the Military does not even want? We deserve what we get! SEE YOU ALL IN THE POOR HOUSE!!!!!!!

Are you even aware of how insanely large those pension programs are? They are massive, it is one of the biggest reasons California is circling the drain right now. What you are doing is nothing more than making an uninformed emotional gut reaction. Here are the facts,

1) Public employees have fared much better during this recession than private sector employees.

2) Many public sector employees enjoy benefits vastly better than the private sector employees

3) Current promises on pension and benefit programs to public sector employees cannot be kept. Remember the GM fiasco?

Big large inefficient company promises billions in benefits to union members that it cannot hope to meet.

Its the same thing except replace company with government and there you go.

As to the these tax breaks to the rich:

1) voting to keep current tax rates were they are is not a tax break.

2) raising taxes would have a detrimental impact on the economy, hell even Krugman attests to this.

3) Current government receipts are at the historic average of 15% of GDP. You cannot raise taxes higher than this for long without incurring a tax revolt, it has not happened in this country, it will not happen. People forget that Al Gore was also talking about tax breaks for the American public during his presidential run. Why? Because of this very point.

We have a spending problem in this country, its high time people wake up to this fact. Cuts will be made, its going to be painful, and if we don't do it the end result will be fare worse than you can imagine. Whining about it will not change this simple truth.

"Are you aware how insainely large those pension programs are?"

How large pray tell, As large as your local politicians? You guys are proving my point! And don't fool yourselves, I would bet that there are a number of ways to obtain revenue for this state other than doing this! This is simply the quickest and easy way to get that money! I hope the rest of the people in America like this, Because i have a feeling more of us will be seeing crud like this come our way!!!!

david-1102226

David, I am foremost noted for being independent and doing a great deal of research. For instance I have reserached primitive and early Christianity for 28 years plus and I row my own boat. I stick to my findings and I am most independent. I am not gullible by any strech of the word - so stick your personal attacks where the sun don't shine.

k200K,

You are absolutely correct in regard to the pension programs. Scott Walker was the Milwaukee County Executive prior to becoming Governor and one of his main focuses was the pension scandal that his predecessor had initiated. He was voted in as our governor to undo much of the outrageous spending that has been going on in our state for the past decade. Some of the teachers here in Wisconsin are making 60k plus 45k worth of benefits on top of that. The only thing Walker is trying to do is have these public employees pay for some of their health care premiums and contribute to their pensions. As far as I'm concerned, it's not that big a deal when considering the majority of private sector employees already do this at a much higher rate with lower pay. Not to mention the hypocrisy of some of these teachers claiming they just want to help the kids and then walking off the job to protest. Some of them even took students out of school to protest with them. Please explain how that helps the kids!

Scott Mata:

These state workers do not have a right to the high level of benifits they enjoy, they bargained for it, and it can be taken away legally.

OK, that makes sense if that's your opinion.

You deserve the amount you negotiate for, period. Your emplyoyer has rights too and you have to abide by that part of the deal too. Its not a one way train.

This, on the other hand, is a contradiction. "You deserve the amount you negotiate for, period..." unless you're a state worker, in which case you "do not have a right to the high level of benifits they enjoy, they bargained for it, and it can be taken away legally."

So which is it?

Hypocrite...

Envy has no place in it.

OK, this part's accurate, and I couldn't have summed up your perspective any better myself.

I'm not a government employee but I work for a company sponsored by a government agency and work in a government building and my husband worked for a different government agency.

The biggest joke among government workers is how the general public thinks all government workers make huge wages and when they retire make even huger pensions. Wage schedules are public information, why not look them up before you spout off? Sure the schedules may go up to $150,000 a year, but the majority of workers are in the $40,000 to $50,000 range and that is with at least 15 or more years of job experience.

k200k, amen. And why, with all this name-calling and partisan hate-mail, do so many ignore the simple irrevocable fact that the states are RUNNING OUT OF MONEY? The teachers need to start a new lecture series to their students about the meaning of hypocrisy, their actions being perfect examples. Our once-great state of California is next on the list for draconian reductions of spending for the egregious public "servant" benefits that the private sector would die for.

DrowningGrover..(#3.17)...You can't just put a number that isn't true and not expect to get challenged on it. " It's hard to blame him for the national debt when it was just over $12T when he came into office..."

It was 10.3 trillion in January 2009.....it is now 14.2 trillion.....all 4 billion of the increase in 2 short years is all thanks to Obama, Reid and Pelosi.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20027090-503544.html

Janet;

You do realize that there are WOMEN in the republican party right? In fact, there are 57 WOMEN in powerful government positions right now in the GOP. Stop crying about the GOP holding back women. That is def NOT on their agenda. Why don't you look at the DEM side while you're spouting - Obama had the LOWEST paid female staff to date working for him... and he's the Democrat that YOU voted for.

Pull your head out and look around willya?

HELLOOOOO. Just look at the United States Post Office!!! It is bankrupt, why? PENSIONS. UPS did a studt 10 years ago and said it could deliver the US mail for 13 cents a letter and still make money. We are more than triple that now and have quarterly loses of 400,000,000.00 GM went bankrupt but got bailed out. Why. Beacause the union got they the guy who was sweeping the floor up to 75.00 per hour. WTF? And you somehow think this is OK? Entitlement is the death of this country. The whole system needs to be scrapped and started over, from the top down first. CEO's are the biggest criminals. Put a cap on salary and defferred bonus compansation. Like they can recieve no monetary compansation only stock. And that stock cannot be cashed in for two years after its awarded, to let the schemes come full circle before the artificially inflated prices, and book cooking has time to come out.

For those liberals with short memories, Obama has spent more than all the other president COMBINED. ALL and COMBINED are the key words here.

Spin away, just like our national debt.

As a business owner I was taught to stop spending when my income couldn't possibly pay for the expenditures. Silly me.... But then again, i don't get bailed out with YOUR money. Funny how things work when you apply common sense. This is lacking in our government, past and present.

@scomata...

Eric, why so envious of CEO's

Does a football player really deserve 10 million a year for 16 1 hour games he might pay 40 minutes each in?

Does a recording artist really deserve 10s of millions for the result of one hour in the studio?

Hypocrite.

You deserve the amount you negotiate for, period. Your emplyoyer has rights too and you have to abide by that part of the deal too. Its not a one way train.

Envy has no place in it.

Not sure what football players have to do with the argument being made.

I work for a very large corporation. The executives control their own salaries. ...and don't tell me that the shareholders do. That's BS. The executives figure out who to keep most of the profits...giving only some, some, to the shareholders. Where do they get these profits...not from innovation or results...but from offshoring, cost costing, reductions-in-force. The company I work for is failing and yet the CEO has recently given himself a huge raise and and is now renovating the executive offices, with new private, secure entrances, with ornate spiral staircases, etc.

This is not how the market works!!!! There is no free market/competition in this country. The corporations are now the biggest welfare queens, and overpaid, lazy, ineffectual, effete asses.

Ciewywtb42mh6sps-23

No contradiction at all. You are worth the deal you make, but included in that deal are employer clauses too.

I took a job for 65K once, but the deal I made allowed the employer to only pay me 80% of that for the first 90 days, and if my performance was not up to snuff, they had the right to keep me at 80% or fire me.

Its called employment at will. Read up on it.

As for the state workers, everything they get has counter clauses and basic realities too, and state law can legally take away anything including their job. That is the deal, the deal is not that you get your pay and benefits no matter what!

This is the real world.

Mandatory Drug Testing will cure all of Wisconsin's public sector payroll problems.

The GOP is out to enslave women, enslave the worker, and create a huge class system of rich and poor in this country. This is so unacceptable and they are insufferably ignorant and selfish to boot. Time for a revolution is ripe. I don't think they are ready, the cowards.

I don't see it that way. I see this as a move to help the save the state. Unions are no longer financially sustainable and their time has come. The last thing we need is for the state of Wisconsin to go bankrupt and ask the rest of America to bail it out because it can't get it's own house in order. I don't know about you, cupcake, but someone has to pay for all those entitlement programs that unions have forced on state governments and I, as a taxpayer, am tired of it. The free rides in this country are over and the sooner people realize that the better off we will all be as a nation.

"Entitlement is the death of this country"

but dont stop at the public sector, you have to hang this hat on the private sector upper level management, who are operating in the same way. I've heard many times folks on here (conservatives) defending the obscene paychecks of CEO's as "earning" that money...and "deserving" of those wages. Code - ENTITLED.

Look, if we are going to talk about bring wages in line with the private sector, perhaps the private sector should get their OVERALL wages in line first? Unless you are suggesting that all management in the public sector should be making 100 x the wages of the lowest level public sector worker?

Hmmm. Shouldn't all of these be at work today? It is Wednesday. Or is this one those rent-a-mobs bussed in by the DNC.

Considering the U.S. has become the country of "Screw you, what's in it for me?" none of this is surprising.

The abuses are on both sides; left unchecked, they will destroy each other.

These workers need to understand that it's either a cut in benefits or get fired, as cut and dry as that. That is just the current reality. But generally, government employees do not get more total compensation than their equivalent peers in the private sector. The lower bracket does, but as a group, they do not.

janet,

IF you are so smart and independent and think for yourself, then WHY do you repeat the biggest of LIES talking points. quite simply the republican party has done, BY FAR, more for women than the dem party. the numbers and admiration DON'T LIE. and how about ol' Brown calling Meg a whore (i see YOU refuse to respond to that FACT), that is typical fair in the dem party??? in a related liberal attack on women, why did uber-liberal gloria allred exploit that house-keeper (who made $28 an hour, sign me up) in order to "crush" Meg??? again, typical Left's handling of women.

No answer, hmmm, <chirp><chirp><chirp>!

Touchdownplay...They all took a sick day...so they are getting paid...not only that....they bused in the students of the schools that had no teachers......

I saw one student interviwed on TV.....When asked why he was there, he replied "We came to stop some guy from doing something"

"I'll tell you what, if what's yours is yours and what's mine is mine, I don't care of you get cancer through 99% of your body; I don't want to pay for your healthcare with my money, period."

Sean - 336944, your a real piece of work! NavyVet98 served his Country and is one of the reasons why you can actually make such uncalled for asinine remarks on this sight. You wan't to know where the money went to - Daddy's unpaid for war (Bush), tax breaks for billionaires, oil subsidies, the Military Industrial Complex and de-regulated banks! And you insult a soldier and a fellow American!

It was 10.3 trillion in January 2009.....it is now 14.2 trillion.....all 4 billion of the increase in 2 short years is all thanks to Obama, Reid and Pelosi.

except Bush's budget ran through Sept. 30th, 2009.... New budgets don't start the day a President comes into office.

After summing up all the Bush budgets the national debt stood at $11.91T, I rounded to $12T, so sorry...

For those liberals with short memories, Obama has spent more than all the other president COMBINED. ALL and COMBINED are the key words here.

that's so ridiculously false, not even remotely close to true...

The gop misinformation propaganda machine appears to be working overtime.

The gop misinformation propaganda machine appears to be working overtime.

lol, that or the democratic supporters are still high on the koolaide from 2008.... im thinking its the koolaide high.....

people cry about having to pat a mere 12% into their health care, and that if they want to get a raise, the public has to vote on it, and ok it... that seems waaay more than reasonable to me, as well, even more like common sence. i mean really, unless you really suck at your job, what other way is there to be hels accountable for keeping it, as well getting the raise you DESERVE? oooooh, that must be it right there, once people have to sit down and look at whats going on, it will be a matter of did you earn it, or not? big fear factor there, lol, i see now.

Ok drowning, how hard of a concept is it to comprehend that when you break one of the very driving forces of this country, the economy, its gonna cost a butt load of money to fix. I have used this analogy before, I am going to use it again: It is just like when you blow up an engine in a car due to poor maintenence practices, it costs you a butt load of money to fix it, either by replacing, or rebuilding it, provided you didn't throw a rod, or crack the block when you blew it up. The only problem is, instead of paying to fix it out of money from your own pocket, you have to go and borrow the money from a loan shark. Same principle applies here, and not only that, now you have a boss who has decided he is gonna cut your wages, which is gonna make it that much harder to pay the loan shark back so he doesn't break your legs.

Janet-1524968 - I am not gullible by any strech of the word

Does not take any stretching.

Who opposed the Abolishment of Slavery in the US:

Southern Agricultural Demoncraps

The Northern Federalists (Repugnants) wanted Slavery ended just like other nations prior to US.

This had to do with economies of the North (industrialized, less labor intensive) versus Southern Labor Intensive Agriculture (requiring Slaves).

Who opposed Women's Rights (Right to Vote) (Congressional Records):

Again the Demoncraps.

Just like the "Negro Vote", as to please the Federalists (Repugnants) the Demoncraps compromised by giving the "Negroes" a percentage of an actual vote (only in some states). The Federalists (Repugnants) eventually got the Negroes a whole vote.

Janet-1524968 - Time for a revolution is ripe. I don't think they are ready, the cowards.

Are you saying that the Demoncraps are cowards.

Oh, by the way in relation to saying the "R" word pertaining to the US. That is Illegal according to the President Obama, January 21, 2009, Patriot Acts (plural) that legalized all those activities considered as illegal in the President Bush Patriot Act (singular).

The President Obama, January 21, 2009, Patriot Acts included those provisions of the defeated as Unconstitutional H.R.1955 and S.1959 (supported by then Senator Obama, Senator Nancy Pelosi, as well as being sponsored by the Demoncraptic Party Majority of US Congress (House and Senate)). H.R.1955 and S.1959 were nicknamed the George Orwell, 1984, Thought Crime Laws in that the thought verbal or written is the crime as well as the action(s). Specifically allowing monitoring and censorship of all US Communications.

example: "Anyone stating a radical change to (US) Government is a Homegrown Domestic Terrorist". So no you cannot use the "R" word in relation to the US without adverse actions taken against you.

As speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi stated, "Everyone (US Military)returning from the Wars must be considered as possible Homegrown Domestic Terrorists", as Guilty until proven innocent.

In February 2009, under threat of prosecution of the January 21, 2009 President Obama Patriot Acts. The section pertaining to the monitoring and censorship of all US Communications (previously Illegal under Bush's Patriot Act) many internet sites changed their formats to: http 404, "Not available in your Region", "Registration required to view blocked material" (with Physical Address Verification), "Blocked in your Zone", etc. this was especially true for youtube.com and many International News Media websites. Included within the January 21, 2009 President Obama Patriot Acts is the requirement for all Internet Service Providers to provide without Warrant the Physical Address of customers if requested.

Unlike the 1990s Poll of the US Military that asked if we (US Military) would use Deadly Force Against US Citizens. We (current US Military) are not so uninformed as we were back then (1990s), as we know the "Pecking Order" of who Summarily Executes (no hearing, no trials, etc.) whom for failing to obey an Executive Order (Treason), if we must Order as Commanders or are Ordered to use Deadly Force Against US Citizens.

We also know that even if we are Summarily Executed (our deaths) our Families, Relatives, Friends, etc. will be subject to indefinite detentions, interrogations, blacklists (no jobs), no fly lists (no travel), frozen financial accounts, etc. as possible co-conspirators to Treason. If you think this is NOT possible, legal precedent, US Journalists indefinitely detained (not "Imprisioned", legal symantecs) currently for Contempt of Court (not revealing their sources of information).

There is also the "game" of being taken into "Custody" in front of everyone (to embarass you), like at your workplace, then indefinitely detaining you, interrogating you, then releasing you. If you have children they are grabbed by Social Services and taken away also while you are detained. Then doing this over and over again to you.

Ardent Bush Basher, Naomi Wolf tried to warn all of you.

Naomi Wolf "The End of America: Letter of Warning To A Young Patriot"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc

The monitoring and censorship of all US Communications under the January 21, 2009 President Obama Patriots Acts are done by:

http://www.cbsnews.com/1770-5_162-0.html?query=nsa&tag=srch&searchtype=cbsSearch

Their computers make the known commerical supercomputers seem to be like 1970s calculators. All information (electronic intercepts) is then sent to ODNI for actions and distributions.

New York, you're next!

ScoMata said "You deserve the amount you negotiate for, period. Your emplyoyer has rights too and you have to abide by that part of the deal too. Its not a one way train"

That's what unions are for! The very people you are trashing. It is ok for Athletes and Recording Artists, but not for teachers and trashmen? Really?

And Walker isn't just asking them to take paycuts. He is taking their right to collective barganing, ie NEGOTIATIONS!!!

Charctine,

You missed my point entirely.

For instance, a First round draft choice can make any deal he wants, but the team does not have to play him, or even keep him because the team has rights in the deal too. Now there is a lockout in the works because the deals no longer make sense.

A recording artist can sign any deal they want, but if their music does not sell, the contract means nothing.

Collective bargaining is a useful tool in some circumstances, but in most, it ends up hurting the workers in the long run. They can have all the collective bargaining they want, but in the end, if the deal is not working FOR BOTH SIDES, it will not continue.

This is why the country is covered with empty factories.

Nice try JR,

The liberals has spent all the money. You can't take from the poor because we are all slaves to the fed thanks to your spending spree and your parties doubling of the federal government.

I see you have believed the lies and hate your party sprews.

Let me save you a reply.

I am a racist. I am stupid. I don't know what I am talking about.

All the above must be true since I don't agree with you and your liberal views.

(you're welcome for replying for you)

The liberals has spent all the money.

lol, liberals started two wars?

The country is on a delicate balance right now.. The big GOP wave has swept over the little guys. Trust this.. You'll soon start seeing the working class taking to the streets. Sick of being told they don't need health insurance, sick of being told that only the oil conpanies and wealthy deserve a tax break, and sick of every talk show host and political taling head saying that only GOP are real Americans. Sick of being told that our President is not a US citizen because he is b lack, sick of being told that the big Corps are "too big to fail.."

don't see the libs ending anything.

patrick I know the memory of republicans is short 2001 surplus - bush - 2 wars- bank bail out= ? oh and don't forget tax break for the top 2% and then talk about cuts like is all libs faults.

Obviously, there is a budget shortfall. Just who do the protesters want to pay it? The taxpayer? Of course!!!!

Yep, Republicans.....cut taxes, start 2 wars, don't pay for medicare part D which will end up costing more than the wars and the health care law combined.

A Working Class Revolution is brewing right now... Not that I want that, but I can see it happening. The GOP and its supporters are heartless as a collective. I am conservative, but the Christ in me won't let me talk to liberals and others that disagree with me the way I hear now. Its like the GOP and TEA party want the dems and libs to just all be killed and go away so all GOP controls everything.. Then the world would be a happier place... How long did you think you could run over them and denigrate them with your words (i.e. Rush, Hannity) Both parties and viewpoints are vital to the union. My liberal brothers and sisters are just as important. For example.. I am against abortion. The legislation needed will never happen without Dem and GOP support. I sincerely believe that 75-80 % of folks are generally conservative except for a few subjects. If we as continue to dog out 1/2 of the country, we'll never get into REAL substantive debate...

Yet people voted them back in, Talk about stuck on stupid!!!

The liberals has spent all the money. You can't take from the poor because we are all slaves to the fed thanks to your spending spree and your parties doubling of the federal government.

total @!$%#ing bull@!$%#, stop with this nonsense...

lol, liberals started two wars?

More than that, and not these little skirmishes, REAL WARS with 10s of thouseands dead.

Korea and Vietnam were more than enough, thank you.

lol, liberals started two wars?

Democrats seemed perfectly willing to not only vote for these wars, but once assuming the presidency, continue them. The fact is this, we are out of money. Neither democrats, or republicans, outside say of Ron Paul, have made any real steps to address this issue.

A Working Class Revolution is brewing right now

No its not. Whats brewing, if anything, is a revolution wishing to decrease the size and scope of government. Remember those tea party rallies? In many ways they aren't so different from the reformers that lined up behind Ross Perot. Many more people are realizing that expansive government powers doesn't equal an increase to prosperity, security, and freedom. The administrations of both Bush and Obama a test to this. For all of Bush's conservative rhetoric, other than being a social conservative, he was no conservative. He was a big government politician just like Obama. Obama has continued many of Bushs' policies or greatly expanded on them.

Ask yourself this?

Is America richer and better off than it was 10/20/40 years ago?

Has the government gotten any smaller than it was 10/20/40 years ago?

The answer to both of these is no.

You're right we wre bankrupted by two neess wars waged by "W"

JR and mattlin

Your failed stimulus cost more than the two wars. Nice try...

Everybody needs to get past the fact that bush screwed up, its the past so what are we going to do about it, Obama was elected on Change and he has only changed for the worse, so neither of them done a good job running this country. The USA is broke, the States are broke so there must be cuts made.

Needless? Americans DEMANDED that the Afghan invasion happen

Congress (democrats and republicans) declared war on Iraq because Iraq broke the cease fire, bankrolled Hezbollah, attempted to assassinate a former US president, would not allow inspections, and on and on and on.

Your opinion does not equal fact.

ScoMata,

Americans wouldn't have been for Iraq if the intelligence had been accurate. We went in because of WMD's, not because of a "broken cease fire".

Revisionist history much.

first stimulus was calculated by bushy and left to next president to handle remember you must have sumtimers

"I'll tell you what, if what's yours is yours and what's mine is mine, I don't care of you get cancer through 99% of your body; I don't want to pay for your healthcare with my money, period."

Sean - 336944, your a real piece of work! NavyVet98 served his Country and is one of the reasons why you can actually make such uncalled for asinine remarks on this sight. You wan't to know where the money went to - Daddy's unpaid for war (Bush), tax breaks for billionaires, oil subsidies, the Military Industrial Complex and de-regulated banks! And you insult a soldier and a fellow American

You get exactly what you voted for! The right wing's objective has always been to make the elite wealthier at the cost of the working class. You saw one more example last Dec. when the right wing held the middle class and poor as hostages until the wealthy got their tax extension FIRST. Even the Iraq War was to promote certain wealthy companies, who then took advantage of the Govt. by over charging fees for services. The Gov. and politicians of Wisconsin are there to serve the people and not themselves. By taking away their voices ensures more control over the people and severely hinders the common salary, which is what they want and means more in their own pockets. The right wing after the Bush/Chaney area have said that they are a Party of change for the better and we should trust them to be placed back in power. But it sure doesn't appear to be that way now. It just more of the same old Gestapo ways used by The Bush years to keep the people quiet. So are the people going to wake up or go along with closed mouths?? It's time to start limiting all political offices terms, restricting their salaries, benefits, limiting campaign funding (so that the average person could afford to run and not just the wealthy), not allowing any lobbyists, and finally voting any politician out (even before their term is up) when they go against the majority of the constituents wishes. The people are not their servants. They are there to serve us, but you'd never know it nowadays.

Fool!

k200k, great post at 4.13.

i would only add that along with ron paul having solutions, i would add paul ryan and mike pence. their ideas would greatly solve obama's fiscal disasters.

in fact, i was at the Aspen Ideas Fest last Summer and even LIBS like redford and streisand were astonished what great ideas those 2 had. (not that LIBS like them know anything, but it does take serious reform/ideas to get their attention)

ScoMata,

Actually the Republicans kicked off Vietnam by sending in "advisers". Not that Democrats are didn't play their part.

Korea you got right but I fail to see what your point is on it. It was a UN war. Taxes weren't cut in the middle of it, and it was part of the budget.

If you were just wanting to make a point that Democrats can get into scraps too then you might as well throw in WWII. I'd figure that would be the one you'd want to mention anyway, as conservatives and Republicans were against getting into that one.

Oh and don't forget the Revolution. Conservatives were against getting into that one too.

If Vietnam and Korea were to much for you then I guess those were too.

Cuts need to be made, but the Republican argument is to take away "collective bargaining rights". Repugs have a long history of union bashing and busting. No one should stand up to the Corporations. They want smaller government so there is no opposition to the income re-distribution that's been going on for decades ( up not down), no regulations, no support for pensions which they have destroyed, no healthcare, lower wages, no access to higher education, needing two wage earners for the same middle class standing.. What better way than the Republican caused depression both in 30 and now to send this country back to the early 1900's, when there was no middle class, only ultra-rich tycoons who had no one to stand in their way. "The business of America is business". What a bald faced lie. Wake up people, profits have never been higher, follow the money when a crime has been committed. These businesses make money the old fashioned way, they steal it from poor people. They also stole Social Security which has been running surpluses for years only to be robbed every year by Bush to claim a lower deficit than they really reported. Add in their first priority after Shrub Jr. got in, tax breaks for billionaires, two wars and the resultant $4/ gallon gas, no oversight of Wall Street and voila, depression, just what people with lots of money want. You're damn right they didn't want the Feds to intervene they wanted the thirties all over again. Just where the hell were these tea baggers for the last 8 years before Obama. No crying about the debt, no "taking back our country" despite real attacks on liberty.

Your failed stimulus cost more than the two wars. Nice try...

also not close to true...

drowning glover,

actually 878 billion is close to 977 billion; esp when considering obama spending. hey what's a 100 billion amongst Progs/Libs? keep in mind that's for nearly 10 years of war and a great deal if not most of that goes right back into the economy. the stimulus, well it was the FAILED stimulus and a great deal of it is un-accounted for.

Your just a misinformation machine there David, And I suppose you know Redford and Streisand personally and can back that piece of propaganda up?

I'll keep it short... to all my fellow govt', State and local puplic union workers ... suck it up!!!

Pay for your own damn insurance premiums ... at least 50%... Got IT??

You need to realize the increased contribution isn't the heart of the matter here.

vaindy

A Working Class Revolution is brewing right now...

cool bring it on... ill let you know right now, i been out of work 2 times now since 08' and never have i evern had to work so hard to find a job and come up empty handed, and you know what? bring your little so called cry baby revolution, ill be there, just not on the side you would like me to be. your unions got you into this mess that they have no way of getting you of, so you cry foul like children.... just fire me off an e-mail when you feel like starting that cry baby revolution....

G. Bud.... that is a freekin lie.

Megalodon-358694, read your own post and take a long break to think about it. According to your own post, you are the working class suffering greatly with the rest of us. Yet , you threaten those that would join a Working Class Revolution and you hate unions. Now I need a break.

I'm back. I've concluded that one of us are in desperate need of therapy or one of us is a poser.

Teo395...

You lost your job because Republicans made it more profitable for Americans to ship you job overseas and repatriate their profits at a lower tax rate that they pay on domestic profits. Don't blame regulations or Unions blame corporations loyal to noone and no place and the whores they paid for in congress.

g bud(and that must be what you are smoking)

no i NEVER said i did know them; wouldn't want to ya fool! and please share, what "misinformation", yeah you don't have any! i was at Aspen and i saw them 2 amazed how briiliant and effective the ryan/pence plan is. WERE YOU THERE, then STFU!

stop speaking on something you obviously know nothing about!

BLOGER,

that's a LIE and shows how vulnerable YOU are to FALSE talking points. do i need to remind you that clinton signed NAFTA, you know that sucking sound you hear of jobs going over-seas. get YOUR blame-game right if you are going to live by it!

MattInTX The liberals has spent all the money. lol, liberals started two wars?

Iraq: 1980s US Military Training Teams from Germany to Iraq (US Ally) during the Iran Iraq Wars.

First Gulf War after failure of UN Sanctions.

As demanded by President Clinton, 1998 State of the Union Address, Declaration of War With Iraq with the Justification of Weapons of Mass Destruction (first time that term was used), this conformed to the 1973 War Powers Resolution. Also known as the Overthrow Law: "Overthrow the Iraqis President and the Iraq Goverment to Liberate the Iraqis People". Later known as US Military Operation Iraqis Freedom.

Together we must also confront the new hazards of chemical and biological weapons, and the outlaw states, terrorists and organized criminals seeking to acquire them. Saddam Hussein has spent the better part of this decade, and much of his nation's wealth, not on providing for the Iraqi people, but on developing nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them. The United Nations weapons inspectors have done a truly remarkable job, finding and destroying more of Iraq's arsenal than was destroyed during the entire gulf war. Now, Saddam Hussein wants to stop them from completing their mission. I know I speak for everyone in this chamber, Republicans and Democrats, when I say to Saddam Hussein, "You cannot defy the will of the world", and when I say to him, "You have used weapons of mass destruction before; we are determined to deny you the capacity to use them again. - President Clinton.

First actions under the 1998 Declaration of War With Iraq. President Clinton authorizes the funding of thousands of Assassins and Insurgents to Overthrow the Iraqis President and the Iraqis Government. This Failed as the thousands of Assassins and Insurgents mostly Shiites from Iran (fled Iran and filled the southern half of Iraq escaping the massive Unemployment at Fundamentalist Islamic Iran after the Shah. Similar to the Illegal Alien situation in the US Border States.) were captured and executed as Traitors. President Clinton's White House spun this as Dictator killing his own people (photo: Iraqis women crying over graves).

First US Military Operation conducted under President Clinton's 1998 Declaration of War. Operation Desert Fox, the Bombing and Cruise Missile Attacks of the Urban Poor Areas of Baghdad, thinking that the poor would rise up and Overthrow the Iraqis President and the Iraqis Government. The Islamic World spun this to US (the Great Satan) killing the poor of Islam, causing International Islamic hatred of the US. Note: We were not allowed to target only Target Damage Assessments.

President Clinton demands the Cut To the Bone Reduction In Forces (RIF) of the US Military that created the niche for the US Contractors. The US Military becomes non mission capable, cannot conduct War per President Clinton's Declaration of War With Iraq. 14 US Military Installations closed, creating near Great Depression Era local US cities, towns. Do not say Budget Surplus either, as that was spent (reallocated by US Congress) even before he was Impeached, and the Real US Economic Indicator(s) the US Debt and the Interest on the US Debt, as President Clinton Interest on the National Debt was $18.9 Billion. President Bush was $16.6 Billion.

President Clinton "Guts" the US Intelligence Agencies including his own Executive Branch Intelligence Agency (built up by President Bush (41) as Director). In months the US Intelligence Agencies that took decades to build (implace reliable creditable sources, "assets") was gone. This lead to "Intelligence Blackouts" of entire Regions, especially the "Middle East". The US then having to rely on "potentially hostile" intelligence sources of other Nations. 9/11 Congressional Committee.

NOTE: Stating, Funding, Organizing the Overthrow of a Soveriegn Nation's Government per International Laws, United Nations, Hague Convention, Geneva Convention, etc. is a Declaration of War. (Obviously).

The primary reasons for the War At Iraq (believed by President Clinton and US Congress).

1. President Saddam Hussein declares his "Modernization (Westernization) of the Arab World" including Women's Rights. This infuriates the Islamic World, especially Women's Rights, the Islamic World declares him a Heretic in a rare Death Penalty Fatawa. The Oil Rich Islamic Nations send Lobbyists to the White House and US Congress demanding that the US Overthrow President Saddam Hussein and the Iraqis Government.

2. President Saddam Hussein declares his program to Nationalize All Iraqis Resources (Oil), this will effectively take control of the Iraqis Northern and Southern Oil Fields away from the US and Foreign Oil Corporations. The Oil Corporations send their Lobbyists to President Clinton and US Congress demanding that President Saddam Hussein's Nationalization be stopped, by any means, including Overthrow, assassination, etc..

President Clinton gives his 1998 State of the Union Address demanding US Congress Declare War With Iraq (pass and fund the Overthrow Law). President Clinton uses the old, 1980s, information of the Iraqis (US Backed Allies) using Chemical Weapons against the Fundamentalist Islamic Iranians (USSR Backed Allies) and the armed Allies of the Fundamentalist Islamic Iranians that ended the long Iran Iraq Wars.

See above Actions by President Clinton as Commander In Chief.

Events prior to 9/11 2001. Venezulua. The President of Venezulua declares Nationalization of Oil. The US and Foreign Oil Corporation send "Jackals" (Mercinaries) to start a Civil War to stop the Venezulian Oil Nationalization. They are traced back to the US after the Civil War is defeated. The Venezulian President orders all Oil Shipments to the US cease, this stops 2/3rds of the Daily US Oil. The US only has 6 months of National Oil Reserves, just like after the US stopped the shipments of Oil Coal that was already paid for by the J-a-p-s prior to the Attack of Pearl Harbor.

The US Military is rebuilding after the President Clinton Cut to the Bone Reduction In Forces (RIF) of the US Military. US Special Warfare is still decimated, many joined the new US Security Contractors. US Special Warfare independently verifies US Intelligence as well as sometimes being attached as "assets", this capability, is gone and will take decades to rebuild.

The US Intelligence Agencies are still suffering Intelligence Blackouts of entire Regions. Most of their crediable reliable verifiable intelligence assets are gone. It will take at least another decade to in place more after training, language, etc...

President Bush becomes the President. Iraq is a UN Mission, Nation Building.

President Bush begs US Congress to conduct Oil Exploration at the ANWR (Arctic National Wildlife Reserve). Congress categorically denies his request. Congress reauthorizes and allocates funds to the President Clinton Declaration of War with Iraq (one of Congress sarcastically told him if you want Oil go get it from Iraq, I was there as a US Military Congressional Liason Officer). I give my men, women a Warning Order that we are going to War (again). We will be living with the Kurdistanis to gain their trust (about a year or two), organize them to fight the Iraqis. This will cause the Iraqis Main Military Forces to redeploy North of Baghdad thinking the Main US Military Forces will come thru US Ally Turkey. The USAF then used non nuclear E-Bombs to destroy all Iraqis Electronic, especially communciation to recall or organize a defense against the Main US Forces coming from the south (Kuwait and Saudi Arabia). The US Main Forces then pick off the Iraqis Military piecemeal (no coordinated defenses). Fund site for my Operations Order, President Clintons Declaration of War With Iraq.

President Obama follows President Bush's Time Tables and declares that Operation Iraqis Freedom (started by President Clinton) has ended. Withdraws US Combat Forces from Iraq. Replaces them with "Non Combat" US Military Forces trained as US Combat Forces (example my USAF Officer younger brother in law trained as a US Army Infantry Officer, I was laughing my arse off, currently at Iraq.).

Afghanistan. 1980s US Military Training Teams from Germany to Pakistan to train the Pro Western Afghan Muhajeen as demanded US involvement by Senator Charles Wilson after he visited the Afghan Refugee Camps at Pakistan. The 1980s Pro Western Afghan Muhajeen defeat the USSR 40th Army Occupation. The US abandons the 1980s Pro Western Afghan Muhajeen, Senator Charles Wilson is begging Congress for $300 Million for the 1980s Pro Western Afghan Muhajeen to rebuild the devistation of the USSR Total War, US Congress refuses. Millions of pro USSR Afghans return from Fundamentalist Islamic Iran (USSR Backed, some fought on the side of Iran during the Iran Iraq Wars), they become the Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban and massacred the 1980s Pro Western Afghan Muhajeen in accordance with Sura 33 of the Holy Koran (Quran) as Collaborators (a Death Penalty Crime) to the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers (everyone else). The Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban take over Afghanistan.

Osama Bin Laden (OBL) conducts the First World Trade Center Bombing. He is later apprehended at Saudi Arabia. The Saudi Arabians offer President Clinton Osama Bin Ladens extradiction. President Clinton refuses. OBL goes to Afghanistan seek refuge under the Holy Koran and Islamic Laws, this is granted by the Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban. After his release at SA he is shadowed by US Special Warfare, that is continually requesting termination authorization, and denied by White House and Pentagon as violation of US No Assassination Policy.

Prior to the US Invasion (Liberation depending on your view) of Afghanistan my men, women and myself are sent in to disrupt the Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban infrastructure. Then conducted Pathfinder and LRS-D operations so that the Main US Forces can safely arrive at secure locations.

Afghanistan is a UN Mission. Nation Building.

Oh, yes, we were also at Kuwait before the Liberation of Kuwait. And when the Iraqis invaded to stop the Kuwait corruption (corrupt mismanagement of the Food for Oil Program, diagonal Oil drilling by the Kuwaitis into Iraq), we had to escape and evade into Saudi Arabia. And later lead the US Forces into Kuwait for the Liberation of Kuwait.

My US Military Officer involvement with the Middle East since the 1980s. Currently consecutive tours for years Afghanistan. Previously consecutive tours for years Iraq. Other assignments Africa, Asia, South and Central Americas, etc..

Keep reading those History books based on information from non participants.

We are too busy as participants to be sitting comfortably at home writing History based on information from non participants. - david-475776

drowning glover,

actually 878 billion is close to 977 billion; esp when considering obama spending. hey what's a 100 billion amongst Progs/Libs? keep in mind that's for nearly 10 years of war and a great deal if not most of that goes right back into the economy. the stimulus, well it was the FAILED stimulus and a great deal of it is un-accounted for.

this post boggles my mind, so many fallacies and misstatements. The Wars have cost more than $977B, as of this posting the official cost has been $1.15T (and continuing). You're also forgetting to factor in veteran's health insurance and benefits to treat the maimed and injured, which is actually part of the cost but typically not included in "supplemental war funding" bills.

And it's laughable that you'd suggest that most of the war funding "goes back into the economy." Really? That $8.8B in pallets of cash that went missing in Iraq, that was injected into our economy?

Iraq: 1980s US Military Training Teams from Germany to Iraq (US Ally) during the Iran Iraq Wars.

Iraq has never been a US ally. We are enemies with Iran, and it makes strange bedfellows, but that statment could not be further from the truth.

Eric, Sending advisors and trainers is not military action. We do that in over 100 countries. Does that mean we are in 100 wars?

As for the conservatives were against this and that, not accurate. The MAJORITY of Americans favored isolationism for the first half of the 20th century. By todays standards EVERYONE that lived in the 1700s was conservative anyway. That is a relative term.

Only the greedy GOP are tired of sacrificing anything to help anyone. Not all Americans feel like the sick GOP. You are inhuman.

Janet,

Since when is spending this country into oblivion GOOD for the poor, women and children?

If you can answer that with facts, I will vote for Obama in 2012. (good luck)

The GOP is currently going for longterm health of the country at the expense of short term discomfort. Alternatively, the Democrats seem to be striving for short term comfort at the expense of long-term health. It's like comparing someone who chooses small portions and exercises to stay fit even though they get aches and sore muscles to someone who enjoys an all-you-can-eat buffet and a sedentary life because it's comfortable and chooses not to think about the drastic increase in heart attack, stroke, diabetes, etc. that they are making very likely for themselves in the long run.

I don't see that either party is evil--it is just a matter of whether the long-term outcome is important or the short-term outcome.

When taxes were higher in the 1990's, the economy was a lot better.

The Bush tax cuts for the wealthy certainly haven't created the job opportunities and economic growth that Republicans promised.

Since when is tax-cutting this country into oblivion GOOD for the poor, women and children? Or the middle class for that matter?

If you can answer that with facts, I will vote for Sarah Palin or Glenn Beck or whatever nutcase the GOP nominates in 2012. (good luck)

Janet- you are absolutely correct- thank God we had President Obama & the Democratic congress to come in and correct these injustices. Without them, those poor Bank Presidents, Auto Industry CEO's, and Mortgage company presidents, who irresponsibly drove their respective companies into the ground, never would have received federal bailouts and would never have gotten thier 7, 8, and 9 figure bonuses. Could you imagine how sad it would have been around their houses during Christmas time? Now, these poor women and children are just going to need to suck it up and show solidarity by losing services- someone has to pay for the budget shortfalls. It's the Party of the People and they need to stop being so selfish.

carl w, WRONG, GW had 4.3 un-employement. only to be destroyed (intentionally) by pelosi's congress(controls budget and spending).

sorry about the FACTS bud!

Not where I live in right wing wacko Arizona where the completely controlled Republican State Government is desperately trying to pass a jobs incentive bill after 3 years of passing every type of right wing social conservative bill you could imagine.Arizona has big problems due to a lack of planning for outsourced semiconductor manufacturing jobs and the collapse of the real estate market here.In addition the GOP is trying to balance the budget with ALL cuts and NO tax increases of anykind.What companies will move here if education (lowest amount spending in nation) is cut further?

David, Bush had a veto pen didn't he?

navyvet98 said ***How does reducing your tax burden hurt the worker, the family or the children? Only the people who do not pay taxes or live off the public treasury hold this view. The majority of Americans are tired of sacrificing more for the few that do nothing!***

You do realize this meeting was about PUBLIC workers, right? Firemen, policemen, teachers, national guard.... anyone paid with public monies. Your implication they do not pay taxes or are lazy is not only offensive but silly. Perhaps political party lines should not be your only criteria for measuring and evaluating information and the world around you.

Janet, Real Life-- fact: the top 5% pay well more than 50% of the taxes in this country.

http://www.american.com/archive/2007/november-december-magazine-contents/guess-who-really-pays-the-taxes

Check out the graph.

As for corporate tax rates? We have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world and then you wonder why all these corporations are moving their operations overseas. The liberal agenda has made an enemy of the entities that provide the middle class with their employment, ignoring the old adage "do not bite the hand that feeds you."

Carl,

"Since when is tax-cutting this country into oblivion GOOD for the poor, women and children? Or the middle class for that matter?"

When you can argue that tax INCREASES are good for the poor, women and children with facts; then I'll listen. Until then stay out of the dialog with your rhetoric.

You can't have benefits provided by a government entity that exceed those that are possible in the private sector without destroying the economy, whether Wisconsin's or the US as a whole. It's Business 101 people. PLEASE put your fickle emotions about the plight of the downtrodden to the side, just for a moment, and THINK! Either goverment workers will have to be reduced in numbers (and carry a heavier burden, per person) or they will have to reduce their overweighted benefits that they now have. I have worked in both government and private sector over the past 35 years, and I can assure you, government and unions benefits FAR outweigh the majority of private sector benefits. But guess what, I would still much rather work in private sector because you are actually expected to perform and excel out here, or you get fired - as it should be. It's really tough to get rid of underperformers in government, which is the other side of the problem with unions.

How can you veto with super majorities of the opposite party in both houses? At least now, both houses will have to work together to get anything done.

Obama's budget is over 3 trillion dollars for next year. His savings are 300 billion over ten years. that's 30 billion next year. 0.01% of the budget. And his budget adds 2 trillion to the national debt. What will America do if China decides to stop lending? The unions are going to have to suffer along with everyone else.

I am not GOP, however, I have to say that unions seem to be killing the golden goose in a lot of instances. Unions came about to establish workers right and stop corporate/governement abuse. 14 hours working days. Unsafe working conditions and deaths. Poverty level wages. Lockouts and "labor shopping." No health care at all. These were some good things that the union obtained to help workers whose solitary voices could be ignored and exploited. Ask anyone who is 80 years old who worked blue collar what "tough working conditions" and "enslaved" means to them. Today's complaints about worker's rights are probably small beans to them.

However, somewhere along the way (I'm thinking Kennedy administration) the pendulum swung too far towards the unions. Now perpetual employment seems to becoming a "right." The crushing cost of pensions are a "right." Health care packages that top flight private corps cant afford are a "right." It may be painful, but the pendulum will have to swing back towards the companies and the governement, or GM's bankruptcy will look like small potatoes compared to California's default on CALPERS.

I'm getting really sick and tired of posts like this. I live in California, and I work for a Wisconsin company that has no "pension." All my life, I have paid for everything I have in my retirement accounts. My taxes are going to gov't workers whose pensions begin AT 50 YEARS OLD!!! How is that fair? How is that possible? Because the GD unions have taken control of this state and are raping the taxpayers. LAFD fire captains retiring at close to $100K/year with free medical care for life? That's a Democrat thing, boys and girls, and we are paying for it through the nose!!!

to Janet are women the only one that work? I pitty you, try working in the private sector, government are overbloated overpaid. Time to tighten the belt and wake up

It doesn't sound all that drastic to me. Let's see:

Raises capped at CPI - Could work depending on which CPI is used.

Pay part of your pension - it's what most of us do, why not government employees?

Can't force person to pay union dues - That could be the real issue. Can't get high salaries for union officials and influence if you don't have the money.

What's the issue about any tax cut? Talk about going against your own self interest! Why should we keep giving gov't (in any form) more and more of our hard earned money when they waste it?

Having been a member of two unions and screwed by both (yes the unions play favorites with sections of their membership) I have yet to see unions give anywhere close to what they get.

I have a very decent wage and benefit package, but it doesn't come close to these guys.

mike kelley, EXACTLY!!!

Yes Janet, why are public employees better than other workers? And what is wrong with the rich getting tax breaks as well?

When auto workers took a huge salary cut, it wasn't on the front page of the paper!

JANET: get a clue. We are DONE with the Unions. They destroyed the auto industry, they have run manufacturing out of here, they retire in their 50s w/full pensions and benefits which are now broke (look to their Union leaders blowin' the money).....and you're blaming the GOP??? Don't think so. Your own Prez just said he's gonna take heat away from old ladies, raise gas tax $.15 and yet hire thousands of new IRS workers. You damn libs are gonna tank the country yet.

You need a reality check. CEOs have shipped manufacturing overseas to increase profit. They control management decisions, not unions. Unions didn't destroy the auto industry, CEOs did. Unions exist to make sure workers get a fair shake. Therefore, they are demonized by the establishment (ie corporate) media and people buy into the corporate Republican garbage propaganda, hook line and sinker. Republicans have this Machiavelli thing down pat.

Don't you just love how G.W. Bush and all of his neoCON GOP cronies have completely undermined and destroyed this once great nation entirely on behalf of their true constituents, Corporate America's executives?

Soon it will be time to get out the pikes, pillories, and stockades. These rapacious prevaricated bastards are all going to get what's coming to them.

Janet, how do you justify making things more difficult for the majority middle class (the private sector) in order to support Cadillac benefits for the minority (public sector)? We are a pretty blue collar state which means mostly middle class. We rank 9th for highest tax rates in the nation. When those tax rates increase so that our state employees can continue to pay virtually none of the cost of their pensions and a fraction of the cost of their health insurance, it becomes even harder for average families who don't get those same benefits to make ends meet. Something has to give or the only people left in the state are going to be the state employees!

@Patrick - Did you ever hear about Herbert Hoover? During a recession he tried to balance the budget and lower taxes in an attempt to stimulate the economy. Guess what happened next? That's right, the Great Depression. We are barely out of the Great Recession, and now there is another two year extension of tax cuts, and a proposal for a drop in Government Spending - the spender of last resort. If we are to get out of this economic mess and someday reduce the deficit we need to spend now! Jobs, jobs, jobs. We need more of them, plain and simple.

You create those jobs by investing Government money into infrastructure upgrades, new energy resources, new technology, in incentives to bring back manufacturing to the US to get us off a consumer based economy. You create real wealth by producing goods, not by sitting in a Wall Street office "managing" a hedge fund and walking away with $Billions, yes Billions. Only the Federal government has the power to do this. So what if the deficit goes up for a few years, once people are back to work, and goods are being made, tax revenue will go to lowering the deficit.

How do we know this? because it happened before. FDR didn't listen to those calling for tax cuts and spending cuts, and he got us out of the Depression. Yes, admittedly WWII pushing production even more helped shorten the time frame, but we ended up with years of surplus revenue. This is what we need now, not laying off people, or freezing pay and spending. That will simply tank the economy again.

Also, would you want to be the one to tell the 68 year old grandmother in Wisconsin on Social Security that she can't heat her home next Winter because we have to cut aid to the poor with regard to heating costs? What about the 18 YO looking to go to College that grants and loans will be cut back, and oh, BTW, even though Social Security and Medicare are Insurance policies paid for by workers and their employers and have zip to do with the Federal Budget, when they do get to retire (if ever) they will get less benefits? Do you want to tell your kids or grandkids that they will simply have to make due with less because no politicians (GOP or Democrat) have the intestinal fortitude, backbone or gonads to make the tough decisions now and go against main stream though? Let me know how that talk goes.

Wow, Janet, what does 'stopped at all costs' mean? To think, all you liberals jumped all over the bandwagon after the Arizona shooting, claiming it was the 'Teabaggers' and their horrible rhetoric. Here you are implying even worse.

I'm an independent and I predicted twenty years ago that unions would be broken by 2020. Why? Because once they served to protect the worker. Now they only exist to grab more and more. People want to complain about CEO pay, but they continue to do business with these companies. That's hypocritical. Don't like what a private sector company does as far as pay, environmental issues, or whatever, stop shopping there. Don't like what the union backed government employees do? You're out of luck.

Unions have become short-sighted and when a person's salary and benefits for pushing a button in a factory exceed $100k a year, you've got a problem. I'm cheering on this revolution. Unions are necessary, but they need to be taken down a few pegs, otherwise the rest of taxpayers are going bankrupt to support them.

And, Janet, even if this proposal is defeated, you can bet this Tea Party supporter will NEVER condone violence or 'at any cost' ideologies. Shame on you.

"People want to complain about CEO pay, but they continue to do business with these companies. That's hypocritical."

@JThomas: You are wrong because a lot of people don't have a choice who they do business with due to monopoly and corruption. As an example, Comcast is the only provider of high speed internet in my area. I have no choice but to do business with them or disconnect from the world. And don't give me the "it's still optional BS." Its not. Our society has changed and the public has a right to certain services that they need in order to function in a modern society. But then again, Repugnants would probably consider breathing optional and charge a premium per breath.

Jthomas

Get out a bit and experience the world. Extremism is not the answer. There are many benefits to Unions. There are some cons as well. Try living in the grey area for a while and take in the opposing view-point for what it really is. If your next question is, "What is it really?" The answer is... valid. Show some respect. "Stopped at all costs," hardly brings to mind a call to violence. For crying out loud, drop the BS.

You do realize this meeting was about PUBLIC workers, right? Firemen, policemen, teachers, national guard.... anyone paid with public monies.

Yes, but do you realize that OUR taxes pay THEIR salaries, so when they pay their taxes, they do it with OUR money?

To Patrick-1112710:

Since when does giving numerous tax breaks to the rich and big companies help the budget shortfalls? Past history has demonstrated that tax cuts make the economy even more unstable and less prosperous for all.

"Yes, but do you realize that OUR taxes pay THEIR salaries, so when they pay their taxes, they do it with OUR money?"

Skelmcb, are you kidding me? No, that is not OUR money that they are paying their taxes with - it is from THEIR salaries that they are paid to do a job for US! Teachers, firemen, police officers, etc. all perform job duties that serve the public. The public should pay for that. This is done for free... They are the people who take care of educatiing our kids and keep us safe... I would love to see every public worker take the day off. Can you imagine our prisons? How about our streets with no police? The schools? The entire state would close down. This is a part of what we pay for when we pay our taxes. I take it back, that would be a very, very scary day for all of us.

Maybe public employees could help out by paying more into their pensions, less paid time off, whatever... but to take away THEIR RIGHTS? Come on.

VegasMom, what rights are being taken away? They are allowed to remain unionized with an annual vote to do so. They are retaining the right to collectively bargain salary increases. They retain the right to their vacation and sick pay. They retain the right to retire at 50 or after 20 years of service. They retain the right to the guarantied pensions. They gain the right to NOT pay union dues. They GAIN the right to work a full year instead of being forced to take a pay cut in the form of furlough days (interestingly, implemented by our former democrat governor) and they gain the right to avoid a minimum 6000 layoffs. All we are asking is for a minimal contribution (less than 6%) toward their pension and a minimal increase in their personal contribution toward health insurance. State workers currently pay about 6% of their health insurance, Walker is asking them to pay 12% (note INSURANCE cost, not total salary). And this is happening from the top down- Walker is putting himself, his staff, our legislature and state senate, everyone into the same pot.

Jason: "Unions didn't destroy the auto industry, CEOs did. Unions exist to make sure workers get a fair shake."

Typical union garbage propaganda - you've bought in hook, line and sinker.

Buying that propaganda is part of the problem....workers in droves allow the union to think for them, to speak for them. It's self-serving for unions to continue propagating the myth that only thru the collective do you have strength - however as individuals, you are powerless, worthless. If they don't maintain this line, they lose their reason to be. Those who've sold their souls to this mantra have been brainwashed and lack the logical introspection to realize that no one is powerless or worthless who can think for themselves.

ya, know, if the democraps hadnt done everything possible to shaft the economy while they held control, i'd be in madison backing walker.... well then again too i hope you get your way, then i can see most of you hitting the bricks looking like i am, lol. feel the burn baby!

GendoIkari - Don't you just love how G.W. Bush and all of his neoCON GOP cronies have completely undermined and destroyed this once great nation entirely on behalf of their true constituents, Corporate America's executives?

ROTFLMAO. See post # 1.99 about Who "Mr. Corporate America" is.

GendoIkari -Soon it will be time to get out the pikes, pillories, and stockades. These rapacious prevaricated bastards are all going to get what's coming to them.

See post#3.48.

Maybe you doing more Research instead of "Researching" Porn.

don't cry when the water comes out brown after the govement lays of water deptment workers.

Move out of the city and have a well drilled, they cost 2500 bucks and last 25 years making them far cheaper anyway.

Provided the water table isn't contaminated.

thanks I will know were to look for water once the systems all stop working.

JR - wow. Thanks for the laugh. By the way, we don't need ten guys to work on digging a trench because the unions demand that worker #1 is only allowed to use a shovel, worker #2 is for the backhoe and even if he's standing around for 7 out of the 8 hours because they are digging hand, he's NOT to touch a shovel.

So I would hope the unions get what they deserve and we can get back to a nation that was built on hard work, dedicated, and perseverance. Not laziness, beer bellies, and belching.

thats why smart peaple use back hoes one person to operate.

JR,

the problem with that example is that the union or gov would still have 6 people assigned to that same task. i've seen it exactly play out that way.

You haven't been in a corporate board room lately have you david?

g bud,

umm, yeah, daily when i was an exec. now that i own a biz, at least weekly.

your point, or lack there of, IS???

you are coming on weak tonight, do you have anything REAL to contribute?

do you have anything REAL to contribute?

I did, All you seem to contribute is Anger and disdain for everyone with a different viewpoint or real facts. Good luck in business

G.Bud....Again, suck it up and take your pay cuts.... pay more on your insurance, and be happy that you are still employed... If your not employed, thank your union leaders for that. They're svrewing you big time!! And, most of the Dems in Wisconsin are working Against you as well.

And if you can't see that, then I suggest you look for a non-puplic career.... ok?

Ah a fortune teller, Sorry but I'm not a public employee, But I do value labor rights, And the only people I've been screwed by are condescending people like you, who Apparently like telling other people their business and where to go. Let me rub my crystal ball... Sounds like your another mean business man wondering why your failing or have failed and blaming it on everyone else who you think is inferior instead of looking in the mirror. How'd I do?

Buddy... You got just about everything right...! I AM a successfully retired (from the private sector) employee, paid my own way,,, didn't leach off the tax payer like the union scags you love to support,,, And, ya,, I love telling these same union pukes where to go, the same cry babies, who allegedly "built" this country and are now bent on tearing it down.

Happy now?

Randy it sounds you successfully retired, because you lied cheated and stole for your retirement. Like most republicans do.

Nav... that's a negative. Unlike you, I actually worked for my retirement. I feel sorry for you. You'll probably have to work til your 90 just to feel comfortable in retirement. That's because Big Brother is going to tax you into the proverbial poverty pit ...you'll like it there, working for Govt'.

Not my problem, it's your problem. Solve it!

Like I said, you worked very hard to lie, cheat and steal your money for your retirement.

Sheep, sheep, sheep. Stop listening to ONLY one news source for your information. Talk about sheep, just look in the mirror. Rachel Maddow is NOT unbiased. She's the liberal version of Sean Hannity. BUT, if you actually start listening and reading BOTH sides of the arguments, and stop throwing the same old tired names around like 'dictator' and 'faux news', you might learn something.

But something tells me you wouldn't want to do that because it might actually force you to THINK FOR YOURSELF. Libs are so frightened by that concept, I know. I used to be one.

i don't use just one source thats how you can tell fox is spreading lies with unreal facts

Janet sounds like a violent Tea Party type . . .

signed,

Tea Party Member

Janet sounds like a bigot

Janet - Yes!

.