You do not need Fox news to see what this is about. Why do you think private corporations stopped pensions and went to 401K contributions. Because they couldn't afford to pay the pensions over long periods of time and continue to make money. Not American companies in the least...especially with the influx of cheap Chinese goods flooding the country. The States, Counties and municipalities can no longer afford to pay the longevity of benefits over the years like they used to.

As for the unions...I have seen cries of unfair working conditions and practices and comparing the working conditions to sweat shops. (Ever seen a roadside project with city workers involved....4 guys watching, one guy digging?) What about the individuals that cannot opt out of having to pay for the unions in other states like Indiana...the unions get paid no matter if the represent you or not. It is a bunch of crap, these "employee's of the state" should get fired for protesting. I can almost guarantee you that there are a ton of unemployed former college students willing to cross any line to get a job and pay for their own pensions like every other American in a regular job with those benefits.

These benefits are not a right people...they are benefits, you search for a job that provides you what you need and if you have to continue a search for employment or choose to change employment because you do not like the benefits then so be it.

Fair and balanced...the regular Joe that is hiding in his house voted these guys into office knowing what they were getting. If these teachers continue to keep the kids out of school and force parents to have to watch their children instead of working...just like the Dems say "we will remember"...so will all the working families that have to pay for all their benefits and the daycare until the teachers decide it's time take out their binky and go back to school.

takenada, why don't you just go to FOX News and find out for yourself. Or are you waiting for someone like Media Matters to tell you so you can be sure you don't get FOX's actual stand?

Dear Former, it is apparent that you think our educational system is unimportant. There will always be cheaters and loafers in any system, including the largest socialist oranization in the country, the US military. That is no reason not to pay people in accordance to their worth to the society. In my opinion, all teachers of our children up to the age of 18 are underpaid. You conservatives always argue that the banks have to give zillion dollar bonuses to their managers in order to get the best people, well.....................so do the schools. I would argue that the reason our country is falling behind in education, is that our teachers are underpaid. You need to examine your priorities. I consider every child in America as part of my family, each one deserves the best education this nation can afford.

Ummmm, the pension funds for teachers and other public workers were actually quite well funded. Legislators (and, yes, you can look this up) treated the pension funds like the state's personal slush fund.

For example, remember that teachers did not have a choice about contributing to the pension funds--and many teachers only taught five years or less. The average amount of time that a teacher spends in the classroom is five years--and then the person realizes that there are other, better-paid and easier jobs. Very few people teach until they retire.

This meant that the teachers retirement funds were very well funded--until they were drained. It is similar to the Wisconsin budget--which was very well funded, until the present governor drained it by paying out way more money than the state had in order to fund his pet projects.

Having created a fiscal crisis, he now wants to continue to gut anything that the public workers were promised. Had they been told up front that they would not have bargaining rights and had they been told that their pensions would be considered to be ridiculous and might get defunded--they might well have chosen other sorts of jobs.

Republicans want to privatize all the things that are presently public, because they want to make money by providing over-priced services to people who have no choice but to pay the bills. In education--first, they will give you a "voucher" and wait for most people to leave the public schools. Then, they will close the public schools. Then, they will cut off the vouchers, calling you all leeches on the taxpayers, people who should pay for their own children's education. Then, they will charge you massive amounts through the for-profits that THEY own, or you will have to just see your kids go to work in THEIR businesses, when your kids are still under 12 (this happened not that long ago, in my own lifetime, and isn't any stretch of the imagination).

I say, let it happen. You all deserve exactly what you get. The public servants who are getting their lives ruined by the Republicans in WI are just like the rest of us getting our lives ruined by big corporations (also Republicans). Sure--let's spread the pain around so we all are hurting--this makes perfect sense! The public should treat their own servants just as badly as the public is being treated by their bosses.

Go ahead--find out just how bad things will get--and don't come whining when you find out that you have to lie in this bed that you are making for yourselves.

If you consider the education important then I call this education system a joke. The teachers are teaching the standardized tests, not going outside the box, not pushing the kids. This isn't just the fault of teachers, it is the faults of parenting as well. That is a different conversation, this isn't about not paying teachers what they deserve, they deserve more than what they are getting, however; it is unsustainable financially. That is the part you don't understand, yes numbers get thrown out there about the budget for the year...what about the pensions 15 years from now that we are not including in these numbers...you dems just don't get it. Your good at hugging trees but not good at counting how many trees you have vs how many you can hug before you run out of time in a day. This will stabilize a portion of the budget...like everyone budget must be cut and this is a portion...not the entirety.

Welcome to the REAL world.

i am tired of hearing those teachers crying! Get Back to work!

How many Americans would LOVE to have a job.

Wow they only work 9 months out of the year.

frag-2227198 "I would argue that the reason our country is falling behind in education, is that our teachers are underpaid. You need to examine your priorities. I consider every child in America as part of my family, each one deserves the best education this nation can afford."

Our teacher pay and student cost per capita is among the best in the World, and yet our education system ranks near the bottom. I would argue that it's because of union rules that protect lazy and incompetent teachers and bloated administrative staffs that are more interested in keeping 'warm bodies' in class (for funding) than in enforcing disciplinary rules, so they have unruly kids that disrupt learning for everyone. Perhaps the teachers should spend more of their time teaching school subjects instead of indoctrinating the students with political rhetoric, or skipping out on teaching to 'protest', while still collecting taxpayer funded salaries.

ROY WILSON-336103..(#1.4)...."Pretty soon, the Republicans might start passing other anti-liberal legislation which does not need a quorum like budget bills do."

They are. Only I would phrase it as common sense legislation, but that might just be the same thing....a matter of semantics...

Passed through committee is a Voter ID bill...

When I recently moved to Florida, I had to show my Birth Certificate (for Citizenship) and 2 documents ( i.e. electric bill in my name) for FL Resident to get my Drivers Licence. And I have to show Photo ID to vote.....common sense.

This is a good one.....they are passing legislation on how legislators get paid.....they have to come to the Capitol Building for their paychecks....no more Direct Deposit.....More Common sense....

Continued Tax Incentives for Dairy farmers.....In a State most famous for it's cheese....that sounds like a no-brainer.....

And gave a shout out to the Green Bay Packers....

Standing with the unions means you back blackmail by people who are extremely over compensated and preform poorly in their duties. if 10,000 unionist are more important than 15 million tax payers than your priorities are rather screwed up.

frag-2227198: Our Military deserves more than we could ever give them. You really should STFU. Go back to school and get an education, if your still in school, I suggest you stay there than is longer required.

@beanathome,

This meant that the teachers retirement funds were very well funded--until they were drained. It is similar to the Wisconsin budget--which was very well funded, until the present governor drained it by paying out way more money than the state had in order to fund his pet projects.

im sorry but what tree did you just fall out of? this govoner was just elected in november, he hasnt even had time to start a "pet project" so just what kind of idiodic lies are you trying to pull off here? you either know not a da** thing, or your a union giff trying to start crap by spreading lies as i have seen and heard on their behalf on radio and tv.

as for this bill, my guess is this, take it.... take it while you still have the chance! reason being, it blows out there. you think if you get laid off you can flaot it out till you get your mandatory callback think again, there will be no call back to work. you think getting another job will be easy? think again, only a tard thinks that after getting a pink slip there is a job just waiting for them, especially a union job, and in government. in case you havent noticed, been to redundant to see, states across the nation have been letting people go for the past year and a half to where its been hitting the news, so you WILL be out in the cold. oh ya, seeing how republicans are sitting behind the wheel now, dont be too suprised if the UEB's extensions take a good hit as well. then we need to look at the long term, seeing how your fellow dems in office make you think the union is your best friend, fight for you and all that, (lol joke!) when the 1,500 here alone end up hitting the bricks to sit on their fat azzes thinking they will be getting called back, this means even less tax revenue, means what? yup more of you silly non-getting the drifters will be out of work, till its emergency satff just to keep the state in some kind of capacity. but hey guess what? the Union will still have its dole's paying, whats left of them, till there is nothing left. so hey, yuck it up while you can kids. i use the term kids loosly because kids seem to be the ones who think only of themselves and screw the other guy, as long as it isnt me attitude.

you think, you REALLY want to think the dem's and unions are backing you on this because its YOUR RIGHTS, when it is a privilage? who actually stands to loose if the bill is passed? the union members? nah, you guys loose either way, cause here it is... if your going to agree to all of these cuts the state is seeking to cut, even if this bill never exsisted, your still paying in. you pay to the union, the union pays to the dems, both have their $$, where's your's? well its sitting on a chunck of paper to rights you lost anyway to keep your job, but still seemed to have paid in for what? the only ones loosing out are the people who keep paying for nothing. whats in this bill the unions and dems are so worried about?

most of the people will not have to pay union dues and have a LEGAL option to opt out! the ONLY REASON, ONLY R E A S O N, why the unions, and the little dems are up in arms, because if you didnt hear, they were all up and ready to see your wages cut, your insurance go up, and not to mention see YOU pay into YOUR pension, without a whisper of care....untill they added in your option to opt out, lol.... ooops opend can of worms there... means those people who are not stupid enough to play the union game will loose out, and the rest to follow soon after doesnt it?

FormerSGT- You nailed it . And Matt-343495 well put .

Megalodon-358694....YUP.......Any Union dues-payer that doesn't think the Union BigWigs have their Golden Parachutes fully funded and will bail out, really needs to get their heads out of the sand (to put it mildly)...Does the head of your union dress better than you, drive a better car than you, live in a bigger house than you, take more vacations than you .....my guess is yes.

mine not only had a Ferrari, but a corporate jet, a Hummer, and from my understanding, a couple of nice cozy places to crash at. the jet was so he could go back and forth to Washington DC FYI, so he could keep getting us those great wages he was getting us as he put it, "a company neccessity." why the last union meeting i attended when i worked for CSE, he pulled into the lot, seen us, and left, had his VP take the heat. who also btw, had it not been for a few guys holding another guy down would have left in a bucket with a sponge in it.

yup, but thesse guys dont see that, nor get it, when the bus comes down main st, they'll toss you under so fast (just like now) you wont know what happend.

¿ʇɔǝdsxǝ ǝuo sǝop ʇɐɥʍ˙˙˙sıɥʇ ǝʞıן buıʞuıɥʇ punoɹɐ ʞןɐʍ noʎ uǝɥʍ ssǝnb ı ʇnq

almost forgot, HI MIKE!

Some of you get it, most don't.

If collective bargaining is causing this massive deficit then why are the police and firemen exempt. If this is a problem then its a problem for all union members. The real problem is that lawmakers are terrible at negotiating contracts. You want stronger working rules and benefits that are more in line with other sectors, negotiate it.

I am not a fan of unions, but, what is happening is just not right. If you can't negotiate to current conditions, you don't belong in your position.

well there's a few reasons why they are not included. unlike a teacher, they face dangers, they are put under a microscope when something happens, be it their actions or not. if a cop shoots someone, automatic time off, while the shooting is looked into,(administrative leave with pay), meantime tho go thru a mental evaluation, same if when a firefighter has to pull dead bodies from a fire, and so on. teachers, government workers, dont need time off with pay while being investigated for negligence, usually they are pretty cut and dry.

If the federal government brought home just 151 troops from Afghanistan, it would save more money than the governor's stupid union busting plan. Does this help put things in perspective for anyone?

The elites are trying to cause a civil war. They will use their politicos to spark unrest in the population (union/nonunion) for example. They will sit in their towers and watch the destruction and waltz in for power and profit beyond the excessive power they already have. Capitalist fascists are fomenting revolution just like they did in Germany. We have all these sharpie businessmen and academics and politicians and nothing is right. When are we going to wake up and realize this is intentional. WE would do well to just kill the top 25%. There are huge numbers of more worthy and able people to ensure the success of the country. The top dogs are just that, dogs.

Regarding education falling behind--If the parents would stop using school systems around the US as babysitting services and take control of their children, the learning can begin again. The endless texting, facebook time, and game controllers are of your doing and controllable.

Teacher's jobs hardly end at the end of the day and they are 'required" to continue advanced education. A MA getting paid <$30K/year?

FormerSGT

You do not need Fox news to see what this is about. Why do you think private corporations stopped pensions and went to 401K contributions. Because they couldn't afford to pay the pensions over long periods of time and continue to make money

No. The truth is this: Pensions were eliminated NOT because corporations weren't profitable: pensions were eliminated because Wall Street demands an annual 10% gain. It's all about "improving shareholder value".

That's the reason I was given by my middle manager at a former large corporate employer.

This is about the following: Cut workers, cut benefits, move that money to executive compensation and a padded bottom line. Who benefits? Executives and shareholders.

In other words, the top 2% that also demands tax cuts while making it harder for middle class families to survive - let alone thrive.

This is NOT how this country's success of the previous century was achieved.

Patriot-1506681

Standing with the unions means you back blackmail by people who are extremely over compensated and preform poorly in their duties. if 10,000 unionist are more important than 15 million tax payers than your priorities are rather screwed up.

Let me guess. Like most republicans, you think:

1 A union teacher (with a masters degree) that deals with large roomfuls of children all day long for the cause of educating the next generation of Americans workers is overpaid, but

2. The executives that make 50 million dollars a year deserve to be rich because they EARNED their wealth.

Am I close?

Less than $30K, they should quit. I wonder if anybody (without a job) would continue the 'teacher babysitting' position? Get back to work and count your blessings to have a job at all. If I were Gov, every union worker would be looking for work at the local unemployment office. How flacky to be crying or even being allowed to act like a spoiled bunch of union childern.

maybe not, but tell me, how many ON UNION companies shipped work to mexico or over seas? Tell me how many non union buisness' say pay me so you can keep your job? unions are nothing more than scabs on the working class, government or other. what are they going to do for the people in this case as far as barganing? nothing, they are more than willing to toss them under the the bus, so they can keep their cash flow coming in. they said it themselves by "willing to take whatever cuts are needed"(suuure, as long as it doesnt affect us, but the people we are representing) oh by all means governor, dont do that right? the only , ONLY thing this bill does is limit the unions cash crop, by letting employee's opt out of the union. thing is, they dont want to even see what will happen cause they know. 1 person lets it out, "hey, this isnt as bad as you guys thought", down they go.

personally, i will be applying at Oshkosh Truck. its a union shop, im not sure if this bill will affect me, but i hope by all means it does, but i could only be so lucky. i go there to work, not to be in a union, and if i had a choice, i wouldnt even give the place so much as a look, and i dread going, dread being hired there, but i need a job, and have no choice atm. it seems to be one of the only games in town, and i am forced to go. seeing right now they are a federal contractor, i doubt i will be so lucky.

Megalodon-358694

@frag-2227198

almost forgot about you......

1st off, you have no right to mention our men and women in the military, be it you said some wise crack like to my face, you can draw a picture of the events to follow.

Actually, frag-2227198 has EVERY right to mention the military. The constitution of our country protects that right, in fact.

Your post makes it sound like you would respond with violence if someone criticized the military in your presence. If that is the case, you need to get professional help before you end up in prison.

ROY WILSON-336103

Our teacher pay and student cost per capita is among the best in the World, and yet our education system ranks near the bottom.

I work in public education though not as a teacher. While I am no fan of unions - I do see the need for it. Whats to prevent a mad mommie from going to a school board member or 5 about their kid getting disciplined and 5 school board members getting mad and firing that teacher?

Until someone finds a way to remove politics from their profession - I believe unions are the only protection. Yes it does protect lazy and unproductive teachers as well - but you take the good with the bad.

And from everything Ive seen - delivery of instruction is the same when I graduated 15 years ago. The only thing that has really changed is parents are worse.

Schools have become surrogate parents. Schools make bad horrible surrogate parents. Until parent start being parents - kids will continue to be ill equipped for this world.

And I dont know where teachers are getting paid 30k! Here in my neighborhood Detroit, I have teachers that are making anywhere from 60 to 80k for 9 months of the school year. I play golf with a lot of them during the summer either before or after I go to work. Once they hit tenure at 5 years they can pretty much do what they want, as long as its not illegal. I will leave you with this thought, And I really like my neighbor, shes a teacher of 25 years teaching 4th grade in a Detroit suburb. She makes 89k with all her bene's paid. On Sunday sitting in my house watching a NBC news special on Gadhafi and she says...... Where is Libya? I was stunned that she asked me that question.

megalodon---The jobs were shipped abroad as corporate America's quest for the $1/day employee. Post NAFTA, I drove through Mexico and in Monterey I saw nothing but trains loaded with "American Branded" cars heading north, while empty railcars headed south.

You can bet that they will continue their quest.

Jeff-330675..(#1.19)..."If the federal government brought home just 151 troops from Afghanistan, it would save more money than the governor's stupid union busting plan."

So, that's the solution....another Federal Bailout to the States to cover Union Costs ???.....We did that already in the "Stimulus" bill to the tune of hundreds of billions.....that money ran out.....and there ain't no more coming....

FormerSGT...........I think it best if when complaining of what unions do for their people is to actually be a part of what is going on with big business...Most all complaints are agains the auto industry..but as far as I have ever seen..not one CEO of any auto company has lost money because of any union...they, CEO's either receive stock...which is tax defered..or a pay raise most every year..most times both. ALL business is that way..Even with the so called bail out of the banking industry last year..their CEO's still made millions...As far as I can tell, not one politicans has said that they would take a pay cut of any kind..or give up their health care cost that the tax payers cover for them to show they really understand what they are doing. No,,so far they have only come down on the ones doing the work..not themselves...they feel they are above us all. You complain about what union members receive for their retirements..but no complaints about politicans making 175K per year to play politicans with our lives while they protect the wealthy and wall street...which, if you have not noticed, hands those politicans millions by their lobbyist every year...if you think for a minute that they actually are all that concerned with you or the debt they themselves have brought unto this whole country,,,you are missing what is going on today.

@Ivan, NC--It is odd how politicians on both sides passed NAFTA, companies show bonuses that are mind boggling, and the companies are 'claiming' a loss year after year. I remain neutral on unions, but it's corporate American that pollutes our air and water and moves on to another country to do it again.

The mantra is repeated--too high corporate taxes, too much regulation, unions. The reality is--they want to contribute absolute anything to the US except lobbying money.

And I dont know where teachers are getting paid 30k! Here in my neighborhood Detroit, I have teachers that are making anywhere from 60 to 80k for 9 months of the school year.

And yet Detroit has had a shortage of teachers? That doesn't add up? Oh...maybe the ones who make 60-80K require advanced degrees and several years of service?

I had this conversation with my wife a little while ago. You want to know how important teachers?

What do you think would happen if every teacher in the country decided to not go into work for the next week? Compare that with every CEO (or any single C-Suite employee or any manager).

What if all teachers just went to school and did nothing, no teaching, no breaking up fights, no disciplining.

There was an article a few days ago which I will assume you missed that pointed out, if the average teacher was paid $3/hour per student to "babysit", they'd make $105,000 per year. Babysitters on the other hand make $10 - $25/hour and they don't teach usually, don't have degrees in education, don't know much about child psychology. They don't help mold children to become productive members of society.

So you want to complain about how "fat" the teachers have it? Pay them per hour per student at a rate comparable with the degree they have. Let's say $28 for a Bachelor's degree, $35 for a masters degree and $50 for a PhD. Either that or keep your kids out of school and quit your job to home school them or hire a private tutor.

Then I promise you we will stop complaining about teacher pay.

@santrich,

and without the low mexican wages, not having to deal with union scabs, do you think the cost of the cheapest American made car would be? ooooh, my guess, a GEO Metro would be about the same cost as a Hummer, after you toss in mandatory raises, and pensions and stuff in there, can you afford that?

thats why MORE work was shipped out, they cant compete with imports, and barely do now, and that is hardly. but the 1st thing to happen was when they told the employee's, the unions we have to do something, people are not buying, THE COST OF PAYING YOU ISNT CUTTING IT, well you all went on strike, and poof! off to mexico. Harley Davidson, Made in the USA, all the way, same problem. cant afford to keep the union scabs on the payroll like we are, bikes are not selling because to make a profit, and the market as it is, had to do what? gave them 1 of 2 choices. 1 they pack up, relocate down south no union, you all hit the bricks and look for work or....2 you take what we give you, we keep some of you, and outsource to local buisness who dont have unions to contend with, willing to work with buisness, and SOME of you hit the bricks. well, look how fast that deal went down, lol. same thing there, as it was with the auto industry, as it was with the paper industry, and so on, and it isnt ANY diffrent with the government, outside of we cant ship out government to Mexico!

What if all teachers just went to school and did nothing, no teaching, no breaking up fights, no disciplining.

nothing much different than we see now, what are you talking about?

I wonder about the glaring gap between the highest and the lowest paying worker in the private sector vs the highest and the lowest paying worker in the public sector.

Expect the Republicans to dismantal the middle class on the public sector since they did a fine job on the private sector. This quote from Republican Barton sums it up perfectly on who they really work for.

Wrapping up, Barton said: "I apologize. I do not want to live in a country where any time a citizen or a corporation does something that is legitimately wrong, is subject to some sort of political pressure that is, again, in my words — amounts to a shakedown, so I apologize."

Mega--Hum---I've never belonged to a union, yet you refer to ME. The plants are pretty much closed in Mexico. Corporate US is off plundering and exploiting cheap labor other underdeveloped countries. Do you actually think they would bring the jobs back if the workers voted to decertify the unions and work for a flat $15/hour? No--not even close. If these guys want to be branded as US companies their products should be made in the US.

Beane - the previous administration HID 278 Million in debt. Kinda like the democrats in congress. The more complex things are made the easier it is to make mistakes - and hide the truth.

Apparently I touched a nerve, a lot of angry responses because I dared to mention the military budget. Sorry guys, but the reason you are having this entire problem is that our military budget is completely out of control. There's more than enough money for our children if you want to stop spending it on domination. For those of you who want private schools, with no government control; you will be the same people who'll scream bloody murder when some Moslem group opens up a private school in your neighborhood to teach the Koran. You always want it all your way.................Good morning Gov. Walker.

Teachers make too much money? Good joke! I always thought it was the doctors who made too much. If you don't like the system, change it, but don't attack the very people who built it and support it. There's a cold civil war in America right now, and it's getting hotter a hotter all the time. Rich vs. poor; looking at history, even recent history, will remind you that if you don't take care of the poor, sooner or later they will take care of you. It's just a matter of time. Just keep saying to yourself, "it can't happen here". Sweet dreams!

Oh my, the first comment, et seq. taken over by a bunch sent here from Faux News. So listen up, boys and girls: if you get a lunch hour, thank the unions; if you get two breaks in your day, thank the unions; if you get raises, a weekend, vacation, sick pay, bennies: THANK THE UNIONS. And where did this all start? Wisconsin. Now, this is the part that you probably like: as much as Walker is talking about people from out of state trying to interfere, he was funded in his political campaign by the Koch Brothers and America for Prosperity.

You teabaggers have a woman in one of the Deep South legislatures who wants to get rid of child labor laws; I guess that's because those little ones can get into mines that are too unsafe for adults. You have a legislator in Georgia who wants rape victims to be renamed so that if there is a pregnancy, the woman cannot get an abortion. I lay the ills of the world on you. Your deification of Reagan and all he brought down on America is coming back to haunt us - him and his Bush henchmen.

Unions are the best thing the workers of the world have ever had. On, Wisconsin!

Mike 416- You and I are about the same age, as I also graduated about 15 yrs ago. That being said, I have a 9 year old son and the classes he takes in school are nothing like the classes I took at 9. He has and/or had classes this year that include Advertising, Photography, and Job Interview Skills. He hasn't had a spelling class, no history, and few science and math classes. What need, on God's green earth, does a 9 year old have for Advertising and Job Interview Skills? (I'm not all that upset about the photography, kids like stuff like that and they can't go outside during the winter)

I know that teachers don't make these decisions, but to me, until the profession as a whole gets their collective heads out of their crap dispensers, and start teaching the stuff they need to learn, then I have no compassion for them.

As for what they get paid, they have no right to complain. They knew before they got into it what pay for teachers is like. This bill only takes away the collective bargaining for benefits, not pay. (specifically says that in the article) Quite frankly, my view is if they don't want to contribute toward their benefits like almost everybody does, take all their benefits away. I'm tired of the "it's all about me and screw everybody else" mentality this company has adopted. As for these lawmakers who ran and hid, they should be charged with dereliction of duty and released from service.

You teabaggers have a woman in one of the Deep South legislatures who wants to get rid of child labor laws; I guess that's because those little ones can get into mines that are too unsafe for adults. You have a legislator in Georgia who wants rape victims to be renamed so that if there is a pregnancy, the woman cannot get an abortion. I lay the ills of the world on you. Your deification of Reagan and all he brought down on America is coming back to haunt us - him and his Bush henchmen.

lol, are you serious???? the reason behind giving the victim a name change isnt so she cant have an abortion, its so she doesnt have to worry about retaliation when the scab gets out of prison, cause the system is too lenient thanx to whom? yup liberal democrats. you talk about putting kids into working on the mines, personally i think you been smoking something, and need to stop, seriously. yet you dare, have the gaul to whine about anything concerning kids, yet bring abortion into the playing field. wow, you are just nuts. but hey, by all means we need you to keep showing people support by all means for the unions, as matter of fact, i hope they make you a spokes person for them!

i mean thats some serious propaganda, mixed in with professional flip-flop on the turn of a dime you have going for ya!

Wisconsin, you wanted to be a red state, you voted in the Republican party, why does it surprise you when bull$#!^ like this happens? You made your bed, now sleep in it. Maybe next time you wont watch so much Faux news and you'll make a little more rational decision on who to vote for.

Frag--the only nerve that you hit with me is one of total agreement. Between the Defense Budget, Veterans Affairs, debt and interest on old wars, rebuilding what we bomb--51% of the budget--all war related. We have no idea what the CIA spends in as much as they are not required to disclose a budget.

We are divided as a nation because the 5% continue to control the 95% and divide us. I am no advocate of anarchy, but I will never blame Americans over faux American Corporations and the military industrial complex. People on this board constantly refer to abusers and takers. That label belongs to the corporations.

Thanks for a quality post.

Some of you get it, most don't.

If collective bargaining is causing this massive deficit then why are the police and firemen exempt. If this is a problem then its a problem for all union members.

Hmmm, maybe it's because we can't live without police and fireman?

There's a new name for the elected Democrats running away from their states and their sworn duty. They're called Fleebaggers! LOL!! You can spell it ether way and it works!

Mega- You totally misunderstood the comment as noted by your response here: "the reason behind giving the victim a name change isnt so she cant have an abortion, its so she doesnt have to worry about retaliation when the scab gets out of prison, cause the system is too lenient thanx to whom?"

The GA legislator is not talking about allowing rape victims to have a personal name change, but rather changing the terminology referring to rape victims from "victims" to "accusers" and yes, it is about limiting access to abortion. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/05/georgia-republicans-bill-would-reclassify-rape-victims-as-accusers/

@Drgimmie,

ok my bad, i read the atricle, ok so what? (oooooh am i gonna get a thrashing for that, lol) 1st off this has nothing to do with wisconsin budget.

2. in a way i can go along with that bill, for the simple fact there has been many cases where the woman wasnt raped, and peoples lives destroyed because of it, even tho the accused was found to be innocent. i have had 1 personal episode as such. my younger brothers ex girlfriend got knocked up by some guy she was dating, she was only 16. so when she found out she was pregnant, and didnt want her dad beating the living sh!t out of her now ex boyfriend, because he ran out on her, said i raped her. had it not been for all the major holes in her story as far as time date location, and so on blowing her case out of the water like a model car at the buisness end of a cannon, i would have had to sit in prison until DNA cleared me. being that was 1989-1990 it never would have happend. it wasnt just me either. the news is littered with such cases, the one team from a while back that supposedly raped a hooker, lives ruined.

dont get me wrong, i do have a lot of sympathy for victims, as long as they are a victim, and not someone making false claims. was also someone i knew who had her daughter say her father molested her. it want till after he was out of prison, labeled a sex offender, life ruined she blabbed after getting her fill at the bar how she set him up. yet nothing anyone could do about it. so yes, even tho it sounds harsh and all to have to think that a bill like this is good, it is. too many wannabe victims out there trashing innocent people, and being accused of something such as rape, if you didnt do it, will ruin you more than if you were accused of killing someone and being found not guilty. cause time the media gets the word out, you guilty, even if found innocent in a court of law. but some people dont see that, they see only victims... well, sometimes people being accused are victims too. still LEGALLY.... the victim would be accusing, for the simple fact, the person in question has not gone to trial, has not been found guilty, and deserves as fair a trial in court as possible. you cant be a victim, if no proof or conviction has been done.

Raised, I agree, we owe a debt of gratitude to the unions of 50 and 60 years ago. They were truly fighting for workers rights and it is because of the fight they put forth that we have many of the "luxuries" we enjoy today. But now those luxuries are protected by federal law and cannot be over-ridden at the state level. Unions now have become entitlement groups. And the worst part is unions digging in their heels in the private sector affect jobs and livelihoods of hundreds more who aren't protect by the union and have no say when companies are packing up and taking jobs to right to work/low tax states. It's happened in WI recently and affected hundreds of lives because of the actions of a minority of workers who were told by their union leadership that the company was bluffing. And when the company packed up and left the union leaders waved goodbye to it's newly unemployed members and went off to the next battle to the death of another company.

Public sector unions have not been constrained by the same financial concerns of private unions- demands in the private sector cannot exceed the companies ability to meet them. To this point, public sector unions have not had that standard- they just wait for taxes to increase to fill the gap. There is no more room to increase taxes- residents are leaving the state because of the tax burden. Businesses are leaving the state because of the tax burden. You can't expect to increase revenue by raising taxes more on a shrinking tax base.

Another fascinating point I keep hearing mentioned- unions have agreed to the pension and health care contributions as long as collective bargaining rates stay in place. That sounds good but the reality is there has been no vote of the membership. It's just talk. Talk to garner sympathy from the public with nothing backing it up. Are you really foolish enough to believe that passing Walker's budget repair bill on the promise from a few random voices that they'll vote yes to accept concessions is going to pan out when all is said and done? I'm not. Same problem with a temporary suspension of collective bargaining- it might provide a short term fix but we are dealing with a long term problem. In 2 years when the deal expires we are right back here having the same discussion, fighting the same fight and dealing with a bigger hole to fill. I am proud of Governor Walker for finally having the backbone to do what is necessary instead of what is popular. He HAS included himself, his staff and all of our state legislature in this plan. The only folks exempt are the police and fire fighters unions and while I'll admit that deal smells a tad foul, his point in exempting them is solid- we cannot afford any threat to public safety if those unions suddenly caught a "blue flu" like the teachers in several districts did last week. What I know of Walker tells me that when it comes time to negotiate contracts with these unions, the same concessions will be requested of them regarding pension and health care contributions.

RECALL WALKER!!!!!

Jeff Jefferson-912478

RECALL WALKER!!!!!

that's your what? your comment? union drool?lol i think perhaps you thought newsvine was Madison Wisconsin? wouldnt suprise me givin the intellect of the kids the teachers hauled along because they couldnt find a sitter...

@Suzy,

very well put, and factual.

"Walker's budget, which the governor plans to introduce in the coming weeks, will contain such deep cuts to local governments they won't be able to survive if public workers don't make concessions, Fitzgerald said."

Uhh, they ARE making concessions, RIGHT NOW! So why worry about banning collective bargaining??? What good does THAT do, that isn't already being done by the unions, VOLUNTARILY??? The unions have already agreed to the terms demanded by the governor, EXCEPT for the ban on collective bargaining.

All the GOP has to do is agree to pass the law without the ban. The unions have accepted current economic reality and will do so again in the future, when necessary. They need to retain collective bargaining to get better terms during better times. The GOP thinks it will be cheaper in the long run to get this ban passed now. Guess what...they're RIGHT. It WOULD be cheaper...at the expense of the workers themselves. The GOP would like nothing better than to make state employees do much more for much less, as always. That's sorta their THING. But that doesn't mean it's right, might less wise, in the long view.

I can't even believe the GOP takes ITSELF seriously. I sure don't. This is nothing more than a tea party-inspired political ploy. The ban would accomplish nothing that isn't already happening, except the involuntary screwing of workers. This is pure politics, nothing more. The ban isn't necessary, period. What happens when the economy and tax receipts fully rebound? The GOP will be thinking "Ha ha! GOTCHA!"

No way. The democrats are doing the right thing here.

MGinRochester,

1 A union teacher (with a masters degree)

WTF cares what level of education someone has achieved? Is that the measuring stick you use to base someone's compensation? With your mentality I could be one of the most useless pieces of crap with zero teaching skills but I've got a PHD. It's pay day!!!!!! That's all I need boy! Time for the gravy train for ole Sven! Yeeeee Haaaa!

aquatone,

Uhh, they ARE making concessions, RIGHT NOW! So why worry about banning collective bargaining??? What good does THAT do, that isn't already being done by the unions, VOLUNTARILY??? The unions have already agreed to the terms demanded by the governor, EXCEPT for the ban on collective bargaining.

LOL, and collective bargaining does what? I know it's a big word for you but that's what this is all about. You can make all the concessions you want chum. Two years down the road, heck two weeks down the road the union can re-neg on these promises they are making. Not only that but collective bargaining hurts small municipalities the most. You know those small towns you all claim to care so much about?

sandtrich So lets see if I understand you. You want to take money away from our Veterans , please explain which ones that would be., their Hospital bills, the rehabilitation, maybe the cost of their prosthesis. Their eduction funds? What? You and Frag miss 1 very important fact about the military budget. Even if you bring them home they are still Military they still get paid. You still have to pay for all the logistics that go with it. Up keep on equipment etc. About the only extra cost to having them over there is the bullets they shoot. And they also do that at home during training. Or would you have us do away with the military, because the world has shown us what a safe and friendly place it is. Hasn't it??? Where do you get your budget facts? As the Dems have failed to pass a budget since Obama took office. The Federal budget Office shows the Defense budget as only 20% of the total. And show me the proof of it paying for "Past wars" Would that be Korea, VietNam. That can't be because as all the Dems like to point out there was a SURPLUS when Clinton left office.

In case you missed the NON-FOX poll taken 48% back Gov. Walker while 38% back the protestors. And thats of the voters across America. Across Wi. It's even higher supporting Walker. compared to the what 30K Wisconsin protestors who live there not the bussed in outsiders who showed up. Your 5% and 95% is your made up crap.

Abusers like those Doctors that went to the state house and handed out sick excuses to the protesters, so they wouldn't get in trouble. That's called fraud. Yet the Union boss said on camera, that's the kind of people the union loved.

There should be no Unions in government period, collectively bargain! LOL who are they bargain agents themselves? It sure not the tax payers! Our school system is broke. Why are students from 3rd world countries out performing our students? With handheld Chalk boards and abacus!! Our public teacher should be ashamed of them self’s for this joke of an educational system. Money is not the answer; we pumped in billions and got nothing in return,

sevolafson it would be better if you knew what you are talking about.

Might I remind you about a bell curve?

All endevers are easly demastrated by the use of a bell curve which shows where all of the participants are located. You always will have over achievers and under achievers with the vast majority in the middle.

All we here are tea baggers complaining about the bottom and ignoring the vast majority that go to work and do their job just like the boss wants it done.

megadoom I will state here that I am proud union member and will tell you a thing that no company will do that my union did for me and a lot of other members,

Zigler Coal went into federal court in eastern Ky and got a judge to allow them to break the contract concerning health care that has been the bedrock of our contract since the early fifties.

I was notified that I would lose health care coverage on a citron date.

Prior to that day I received a letter from my union with a check for over five thousand dollars that I could endorse and keep or send it back for a full year of health coverage.

I received two more checks in the next two years until the US congress allowed the union to transfer us to a union paid heath insurance fund.

No company has ever done such a thing for retired workers so when you attack unions "you have stepped on the fighting side of me"

If the federal government brought home just 151 troops from Afghanistan, it would save more money than the governor's stupid union busting plan. Does this help put things in perspective for anyone?

So your point is.. what exactly? That we should pay Wisconsin teachers more simply because the amount of money being discussed is relatively small? Wouldn't that also be a good argument for why they should begin to pay for a portion of their own retirement and medical care? That's what is expected from the majority of private sector employees.

Newsflash, only about 20% of private sector employees even get a pension! Every picture I see of the teacher picketting and NOT teaching only makes me feel more strongly that their benefits should be slashed.

Hey everybody....the SEIU has put out a new song, dedicated to the protesters in Wisconsin....It's such a ho'down hoot-n-nanny...quite the yeee-haw.....

http://www.seiu.org/2011/02/the-dropkick-murphys.php

The only reason why the Democrats ran away from their jobs, was because they realized their most financial supportive group for their re-election campaign were on the hook. I bet every one of them received a call telling them to leave the State.

Two-Thirds of Wisconsin Public-School 8th Graders Can't Read Proficiently—Despite Highest Per Pupil Spending in Midwest

Tell me again why Wisconsin should negotiate with the teacher unions when collective bargaining isn't helping their children's education? I mean, really. Perhaps Wisconsin should try something different.

I'm amazed by the over abundance of total ignorance displayed by the Conservative/anti-labor posts on this thread. Beware! The "Revolution" has begun! Walker, Kasich, and company...you are screwing with an entity that you cannot and will not overcome. The war for collective bargaining has already been fought and won...and will happen again if necessary. Great comments frag...keep them coming...their innate stupidity will catch up to them soon! This is what happens when you let morons vote! Stay strong Union brothers and sisters!

@Suzy,

I hate to tell you this, but benefits such as holiday pay, vacation pay, and health insurance such are not codified in law as being required to be given. They are not protected in any way by federal law, and any such protection on the state level varies by state (IL has no such protections. I've looked). This should be self-evident by the wide range of benefits available over the various types of jobs out there. There is a federal minimum wage, and there are state laws with regards to overtime and the length of a work day. You could go to work for someone tomorrow, all they had to promise you would be that you would get paid at least minimum wage and that you could have 30 minutes for lunch, and they would be fine in the eyes of the law.

The sad thing about that minimum wage, too, is that if you collect tips, there are exemptions so that a restaurant owner doesn't have to pay you minimum wage himself, just that your total pay must be minimum wage or over. Feel better about paying that mandatory 18% gratuity now? Doesn't feel like I'm actually rewarding good service as much as I am just paying their wage directly.

The reason the benefits are offered at all are as enticements for people to work there, not because they are required to. If somehow all companies removed those benefits, it isn't likely that there would be a damn thing that the working public could do about it.

If this goes down, I wonder how long it would be before someone like Walker would look at the Unemployment Insurance protections and think.. 'Gee, I would be able to balance the budget even easier if I didn't have to pay out for that, too.'

Mucker87

Revolution? so what are you union thug going to do? so your going to start a revolution with the tax payers?

ecib...your response proves it...you are all so greedy blind that you don't even see it coming! Good luck my friend!

jollyoldsoul1 And I dont know where teachers are getting paid 30k! Here in my neighborhood Detroit, I have teachers that are making anywhere from 60 to 80k for 9 months of the school year.

Where do teachers make around $30,000 a year? Actually, it's quite common for teachers to make about that:

http://teacherportal.com/salary

Sure, their salaries can get close to the $60,000 range IF THEY HAVE 20 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE. As you can see from the above link, however, that's hardly representative of the typical teacher salary, which is closer to $40,000.

your the one talking about a revolution, i just want to know who your going after, we are talking about public Union. there no such thing as collectively bargaining with the public union they are not asking me what there pay should be

Twanfox good rant for 30 years ago. But today employers provide benefits to try and get a better employee. The jobs today mostly require someone who can be trained on how do a job. It costs money to keep training new people. So you offer a wage and benefits to try and get a good employee. Is there bad bosses, yes. but they usually run themselves out of business or get fired. You make it sound like the tips formula is a bad thing. I'll let you talk to some people who would scream very loud if you tried to change that.

And Walker is not taking anything away. He having them pay a part of the cost of their benefits. What the he** is so hard to understand about that. The same as most private employees have to.

How do those States without "collective bargaining" manage? I don't see any of those States protesting or handing out free medical excuse slips to protesters. You know the doctors that are breaking the law supported by union members? hmmm. I guess it is ok to have people break the law if you can benefit from it. What union members do to get paid for no work... sheesh.

@Nitemare2

They provide the benefits, but the point was that they don't have to by law. If they chose not to provide them, for whatever reason, they would be fine. You can see that with the number of companies lately simply not providing health insurance anymore. Too costly for the employer, and they're not (yet) required to provide it. Even when they are, it's probably cheaper to pay the fine than to provide it.

Walker IS taking something away, too. He is taking away the Union (people's) right and ability to bargan collectively with the state. That is the complaint, and that is what is at stake in Wisconsin. What's so damn hard for you to understand about that?

He is also asking them to pay their share, which by all reports I've heard, the Union is willing to give him, and I'm cool with that.

Twanfox

You can see that with the number of companies lately simply not providing health insurance anymore. Too costly for the employer, and they're not (yet) required to provide it. Even when they are, it's probably cheaper to pay the fine than to provide it.

That's right. The costs is what America was screaming about. So what did we get? Insurance costs went up an average of 20% since the HCR bill was signed into law. Even more Americans can't afford medical insurance now then before the HCR bill passed.

Walker IS taking something away, too. He is taking away the Union (people's) right and ability to bargan collectively with the state. That is the complaint, and that is what is at stake in Wisconsin. What's so damn hard for you to understand about that?

He didn't take away your right to unionize, he simply required you to have an annual vote to maintain your union shop. He also wants the people who begins work for the State to choose if they want to join the union or not. If you choose not to be in the union, then you can still get a job with the State. Currently, you can't. So, who really is restricting the people's right to work?

He is also asking them to pay their share, which by all reports I've heard, the Union is willing to give him, and I'm cool with that.

I agree, but I also believe this is only the beginning to the cuts the States are going to have to make. It would be wise for the States to take control of the unsustainable union pension programs that are out of control. If it means they need to eliminate collective bargaining, then so be it. Many States are in big trouble over their pension programs. They don't have near the revenue problem as they do a benefit problem today. That is a shared problem between the government and union entities.

Walker IS taking something away, too. He is taking away the Union (people's) right and ability to bargan collectively with the state. That is the complaint, and that is what is at stake in Wisconsin. What's so damn hard for you to understand about that?

So who is "the state"? I think it's the tax payers who haven't had word one in this conversation. WE pay the bills, we should be able to have some input into whether we can afford the package being asked for or not, shouldn't we? Because the problem as I see it is that "the state" has been represented at the table by politicians bought with Union dollars. It's in the unions best interest to elect officials who will best represent THEIR interests, not the interests of the tax payers, yet it's the tax payers who are on the hook when its time to pay up.

I think these people are forgetting that they are PUBLIC Servants. When they applied for these jobs and were interviewed I'm sure they didn't have demands for pay and benefits. In these interviewsfor employment, they are normally asked why they want to be a teacher, police officer, fire fighter, etc. The answer usually is usually something like, "I want to help the community; I want to make a difference in people lives; I want to help people" and so on. Public servant jobs were not deigned to to money makers. That is why we have the private sector. How do I know this. I was a police officer for nearly 30 years. The first thing i was told at the interview that it was going to be a tough job and that I better really wanted to do it because I wasn't going to get rich. Now these individuals go and protest. Maybe they should remember the oath they took and the reason they took the job. If it was only about the money, they are in the wrong profession and need to go. I heard the same arguments when I worked, But then I would hear about the new boat, large screen TV and would see that brand new expensive vehicle they were driving. These were also the same people that were some of the laziest around. They said they were not going to work hard because they didn't get paid enough. Gee, I guess the $70,000 they were making a year as a patrol officer wasn't worth it. Most of them couldn't have gotten a job for half of that. I know what I am talking about because I lived it. It is shameful that these people say they want to serve the public and then do the opposite. Look how the poor students are reading in WI:

I would like to remind WI teachers that a recent Department of Labor study shows 2/3 of WI 8th graders cannot read at a proficient level. And there in lies the problem with tenure. Combine that performnance with a budget crisis (worldwide I might add) and they wonder why we are here.

Here lies the facts: there are honorable hard working public servants, but they are the minority. Most don't do anymore than they have to or they do less. Can you say "LAZY".

@bopdiddlyloo,

well i'll step on the wrong side of you any day bud, cause i too worked for a union, sheetmetal workers, and tell ya this, maybe your union did you a little favor, but i never seen one do anyone else one. in 2004, my stub for insurance that I PAID in was a tad over $10,000.00. when i started in 2000, i started after hourly insurance deduction, and not to include monthly, and anual dues $17.00 hr, part of our contract was we get a $1.00 per hr raise each year. each year our insurance went up guess what? yup $1.00 per hr. yes we paid into insurance by the hours workerd. it came off of our hourly wage. the crew i worked with, only 1/2 if that were competent enough to actually work there, and kept on because with the union they couldnt get rid of them. Believe it or not, i was actually skipped when it can time for voulentary-mandatory layoff's during the slow season, because i busted my azz in the shop. yet the fat slob who had nothing better to do than flap his gums 1/2-3/4 of the day went crying to the union and i got a forced layoff, so off i went to a diffrent job. getting laid off wasnt my beef tho. paying in 10 grand for insurance in one year was. seeeing my raise go towards the union boss to get his toys and nice little drean homes was. watching others f*** off most the day getting paid more than me while i busted my azz to hold on in the shop as long as i could was. seeing incompetent people who were not only a danger to myself, but to themselves by just waking up in the morning, meantime getting paid and making enough $, the owner had to tell him to cash his checks so they could finally clear payroll. so you want to toe dance with me on union issues, be my guest, unions are scabs, will always be scabs, because they are just that, scabs. maybe your union did you a favor once, but it sure as he** never did me, or anyone else any that i know of outside of rob them blind. Stick my money for dues and insurance into places it didnt belong, mainly campains, jets, sports cars, and suv's.

almost forgot... on that insurance when i started, $4.38 per hr went to insurance, that would be $8.38 per hour by the time i was done. our union at the time was just over 500 strong, so you do the math on what they pulled in every year buddy.... or you want me to do that for you? if i come off a bit miffed, ya, im miffed, and it isnt your fault, but, you talked about toe dancing, so here we are.

"In case you missed the NON-FOX poll taken 48% back Gov. Walker while 38% back the protestors. And thats of the voters across America. Across Wi. It's even higher supporting Walker. compared to the what 30K Wisconsin protestors who live there not the bussed in outsiders who showed up. Your 5% and 95% is your made up crap."

Could you post a link to that poll? I can't find it. The only one I can find is one that shows WI voters 2-1 in favor of the protestors. See here: http://www.greenbergresearch.com/index.php?ID=2600

well, from where i can tell, talking to people in wisconsin, they are wondering what the unions are bawling about and the fleebaggers fleeing over. can it be this?

Collective bargaining – The bill would make various changes to limit collective bargaining for most public employees to wages. Total wage increases could not exceed a cap based on the consumer price index (CPI) unless approved by referendum. Contracts would be limited to one year and wages would be frozen until the new contract is settled. Collective bargaining units are required to take annual votes to maintain certification as a union. Employers would be prohibited from collecting union dues and members of collective bargaining units would not be required to pay dues. These changes take effect upon the expiration of existing contracts. Local law enforcement and fire employees, and state troopers and inspectors would be exempt from these changes.

noooo not at all? i have a hard time coming to terms with union drools dragging kids to fight their battles for them, as well union scabs who are only worried about a payday making a fuss, as well the rest of the rest of the non union folks. this isnt california, where each man makes his own union, this is wisconsin, and whats left of the private sector (non union), and some of the public sector (union) are not in favor of this protesting, but yes, do back the bill. look at wbay.com perhaps?

the unions are the only thing keeping the middle class alive , without union all wages will drop and benefits will disappear

Nightmare2--nothing could be further than true. As a P&T DV, I will always advocate for Veterans. I am pointing out the cost of war--many of us wanted no part of the ones we were in. We don't need to deal with every situation with military involvement.

I've received much high quality care from the VA through the VA--especially prosthetics.

working man-780222

the unions are the only thing keeping the middle class alive , without union all wages will drop and benefits will disappear

thats on old union wives tale, maybe you need to back that up with a little proof? maybe if this was 1930-something, not today. hr has advanced a little, as well as buisness ethics, and federal/state labor laws, go back to your dreaming.

@Suzy

When the unions have conceded to the budget cuts required, even after the budget was adjusted from having a surplus to having a deficit, the current 'will of the people' is satisfied. The people wanted Republicans in office, fine. They wanted a balanced budget, fine, they can get that. Walker is going further than the will of the people seems to be. While they're not abolishing Unions, but they're limiting what a Union can do to the point of making them useless.

It's like allowing abortions but requiring 9 months of counseling before you can get one. Sure, you're still legally allowed to get one, but it is impossible to satisfy the requirements prior to getting one. That makes them effectively banned in all but name. The same premise is likely to happen to Unions if the only power they have is to negotiate up to the rate of inflation, the same rate increase that the state is likely to have given anyways. With nothing to negotiate for, why keep around a union and continue to pay the dues? I'm sure even the yearly membership vote requirement speaks to that. Your union could be dissolved in only 1 year if an insufficient number of people turn out to vote in support of it.

Hell, I'm not even old enough to have lived through sweat shops and the start of the Union movement, but when I hear about them losing the ability to collectively negotiate for working conditions, I worry if that means a potential to return to the days of old some day in the future. Unsafe workplaces, dangerous jobs that could have been made safe easily, or even something as simple as (in a teacher's case) being able to negotiate for an environment that actually WORKS to teach, instead of one doomed to fail. Seeing how there's a struggle even getting the EPA to regulate emissions doesn't give confidence that OSHA will retain any teeth should that become the next target "to improve the profit margin".

@Megalodon

Business ethics. The only reason why businesses have ethics is because it, at the time, is profitable for them to have them. If it were more profitable to dump sewage into the river and no one would stop buying their products when they found out, they'd do it no problem. Don't believe for a second that companies have any other mandate other than profit for their shareholders, they don't. Any ethics a company has is one of convenience and or necessity to continue to earn money.

In Jan 2009, the President said something along the lines 'We won, get over it and deal'. Well, the GOP won the last round of elections and now others will have to deal with it.

Either way, it won't help the general public. Neither party truly seems to be working in the public interest. They play the politics of power and both support their backers - which is generally not the US public.

Dave, I remember the liberals saying that all the way up to last November but suddenly they don't think it should apply to them/

michelle-1073610...(#2)...There was an election in November and the voters in Wisconsin were tired of the dictatorship they already had. All 3, the Governor, State Senate and the State Assembly, went Republican....And yet you think the losers should still rule ??

" Obama said he would consider the GOP ideas, but told the assembled Republicans that "elections have consequences" and "I won."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/25/AR2010102502408.html

And, then the GOP proceeded to delay every bit of legislation they could for as long as they could.

Payback's a bitch, isn't it, Rushbot?

jc - the gop OPPOSED bad legislation - they didnt run and hide

And even if they opposed it the Dems could have pushed through everything that they wanted even without the GOP vote....that is where you have to wonder why the Dems are asking why they didn't. At least the GOP stood for their values and voted NO when they disagreed.

It is a shame how much they pay teachers for what little they do.

Funny, I haven't seen any of you Dittoheads come up with an explanation as to how delaying legislation is good when the Republicans do it, but bad when the Democrats do exactly the same thing.

"Hypocrites" is the word that comes to mind...

JC from IA

Let's just wait and see how many bills passed by the U.S. House that Harry Reid doesn't even bring to the floor of the Senate for a vote.....because he's so worried that because there are numerous Senate Democrats that face uphill battles for re-election in 2012...that they would vote for the bills.

JC from IA,

funny to call someone a "Rushbot", that makes you a "union dole" then? or is it a "patsy" for the dems?

thing is, you think the unions are out there for you? (every time i say that i laugh a little). thing is, if these kids they dragged off to protest FOR THEM didnt show up, there would only be what 1,000 or so people? when in reality, you still get to keep the union. for the MOMENT you loose collective bargaining rights, (something you would loose anyway because the union makes the deals FOR YOU), but see you union dole's think its about the rights when you forget they are willing to toss you under the bus, by accepting any and all cuts, so you are literally tossed under the bus. YET! who really stands to loose out here? you read the news dont you? what has the news been saying no matter what news you listen to keep saying?

"it will be a major blow to the UNIONS, and the DEMOCRATS", not the members of the unions, not by any means, why? because in this bill you have the option to opt out.... ill say it a little louder so you can hear or read better.... YOU HAVE THE OPTION TO OPT OUT OF THE UNION.

personally, being i used to be in the union, i would LOVE to have had the option to opt out. - union dues, - union insurance dues, hell man i would have been set pretty good at my last union job, that wouldnt let me opt out. the $ i paid for insurance (and that was even before it went up), and the $ i was paying for dues, on the insurance alone i would have went from $17.00 to $26.38 an hr, paid for my own insurance, cause i did find a lot cheaper than what i was paying in. ooops didnt add in those dues yet, guessing ti would have been a good $27.00 an hr min. giving the hi cost of monthly dues, to add in annual. basically i helped put some tool in office i didnt want in, backing them on their behalf, not mine. oh wait, they wasted that and backed Kerry, a joke in its own right, just my opinion tho.

so when you union dole's eventually end up hitting the streets because your out of a job, all i can say is...good luck out there! the job market isnt even remotely close to what it was 4 yrs ago. not to mention, going by past history, dont be too surprised if some of the extensions for UEB's end up changing come the next vote.

JC

Funny how the Republicans don't trash government facilities to 'delay' a vote. I was talking to someone from Wisconsin yesterday. He was telling me how the capitol building is trashed. Graffiti on the walls, toilets purposely clogged and backed up to flood, garbage everywhere.

Kevin thinking.... I saw that too.....what a disgrace....why no media coverage on what low-life scum are doing to the Capitol building there....It's one thing to protest or demonstrate....this is unacceptable....I don't know why Security allowed this to happen.

Mike

Because the security is State Troopers.... union members.

well Kevin, just proves to point what kind of scabs the union has for its members imo.... not referring to the troopers, why babysit someone on the pot? cant be trusted? i guess not... kids.

if not mature enough to debate without destruction, and peacefully, then not mature to even debate... period.

Meglodon

I have a difficult time (as a union supporter) listening to blather from someone who doesn't know your for you're or lose for loose. Telling.

My union dues were never higher that 2x hourly wage. You are falling into the trap pitting you against me while the creators of the situation look on and prosper. You believe what you do because the media is owned by the elite and you don't have critical thinking skills. You won't admit that the entire problem is capitalism without control. You're probably one of those people who spout the mantra (talking point) "Business is in business to make money." Business is allowed to do business because it serves the people. The people are no longer being served and these businesses do not deserve their charters. Has the governor that peaked this issue surrendered his compensation? He should, if only for making an exemplary gesture. The storm is nearer and they use boneheads like you, focused on your own selfish situation, hoping to become the abuser instead of the abused. Want to settle your budget in Wisc. or anywhere? Raise taxes on the rich to 90% above a maximum level. (Why do you think they buy politicians to favor their interests when they are well away better off?) Business would then be incentivised to not accumulate and instead invest. People would go back to work further increasing the tax revenue to the state. All subsidy should be cut to Megacorps. Your comment about "...others ready to take the jobs..." is just another way they are using one against the other by creating this situation. They have control over this, and you. I have no doubt there will be those who take the money to assault other citizens having been conditioned in much the same way as you. I'm willing to bet that you drink but don't smoke pot or use other drugs. Consider that drugs inhibit conditioning and allow out of the box (they put you in) thinking. Just consider. Try to think about the way things are and why they should be that way? Try conspiracy theories. Why do you think conspiracy theorists are discounted as crazies? It's the only way to discredit those who seek to expose you. Hence associations with other "crazy" ideas. Do you truly think that doctors and lawyers and ceos are more important in our society that ditchdiggers? Do you not understand that the upper cannot exist without the lower and that it is their abuse of the system that allows them their "fat" that gives rise to hatred for the elites. Our economic curve should look like a bridge span, not a duncecap. Your enemy is not the brothers and sisters who have fought for a decent peice of the wealth that they create. Workers create wealth, not owners and not equipment. All wealth derives from labor.

I'll support the demise of unionism when corporations are only allowed to operate as non-profits. Let people be paid for what they do,not what they own.

kedbob

I'll support the demise of unionism when corporations are only allowed to operate as non-profits. Let people be paid for what they do,not what they own.

what you are saying is, people who make a buisness, shouldnt get paid, go on welfare so their employee's can work, and make more $? what are you 3, 4 years old?

Dave-1384240

In Jan 2009, the President said something along the lines 'We won, get over it and deal'. Well, the GOP won the last round of elections and now others will have to deal with it.

Didnt prevent them from being obstructionists did it? Two can play that game.

@kedbob,

They have control over this, and you. I have no doubt there will be those who take the money to assault other citizens having been conditioned in much the same way as you. I'm willing to bet that you drink but don't smoke pot or use other drugs. Consider that drugs inhibit conditioning and allow out of the box (they put you in) thinking. Just consider.

so, what your saying is doing drugs lets you think out of the box? well you are partially right, i dont do drugs, and if i drink, it is on a rare occasion. 2nd your going to write a looong little speech based on my spelling? that because of you dont feel the need to actually take belief in, yet did anyway?lol, i didnt know the unions represented clowns as well?

as far as taking $ to sway my vote or kicking someone's silly rump for being stupid, i dont have to get paid for that, it's always a freebie when one has it coming, i mean that too. however, there is no amount of $ the union can dump on my front step to get me to slap people for this bill around. no job they can offer,no house i could dream of, why? well because unlike the scabs, i have morals, i know better, i have been there in the union, i know what its about, just not so stupid i dont know any better cause someone want to make me think they are making me money while they get nothing. that they are doing me a favor, when as soon as my back is turned they'll toss me in front of a truck on a freeway. see im not stupid, or brainwashed. i used to have a small buisness as well for a short time, i know a bit of the in's and outs buddy. so take your scabby little union, and move along, cause me, as well as the rest of the people here, arent going to buy it, especially, (lmfao) when you feel a company should be non profit. just wondering where you come off with that when you pay your dues to whom? a union that takes from you? tell me buddy.... what good has your union done you in the last however long you have been kissing their a**?

cracks me up too.... a union scab, yes SCAB telling someone to go use drugs...do you sell too or just point to the dealers?

JC from IA

And, then the GOP proceeded to delay every bit of legislation they could for as long as they could.

AND

Mike-416

Didnt prevent them from being obstructionists did it? Two can play that game.

You want to know the difference?

Republicans did everything they did within the Rules of Congress and WITHIN the Democratic Process.

The Dems are walking out of their job, and hiding in another State to AVOID the Democratic Process.

See the difference? Somehow I dont think so.

There are about 40 states considering doing the same thing as Wisconsin. Those states include New York and California - Democrat controlled Houses, Senates, and Governors. They are only laying back and letting the Republicans take the political hit.

Too weak a union is not good, neither is too strong a union. The reality is that unions that become too powerful become parasites - parasites almost always cause the death of the host.

Hey Megalodon-

Just to clear a couple of things up since you think the unions are "scabs." Wisconsin public schools are currently one of the best school systems in the country and at the same time rank 20th in terms of average teacher pay ($25,000 starting and average is $46,000 plus the TEACHERS have to pay for all of their ongoing education out of pocket as well as about 50%-70% of their class room materials (roughly $5-7k per year between the two). I wouldn't say that qualifies the teachers as "scabs."

Also, just before there was this looming $130 million deficit, your pal Governor Walker handed out a $140 million tax cut to corporations. You know places like Wal-Mart.

Then instead of repealing his tax cuts to fix the deficit he's taking it out on the teachers.

The teachers have AGREED to all of the cuts except their bargaining rights... They are willing to PAY for his tax cut he gave the corporations, if he will give them ONE concession.

Instead he would rather see his state miss the budget deadline and cost the taxpayers another $160 million rather than find "common ground."

For those of you paying attention that's a $140 million for corporations. $130 million from the teachers, and $160 million from the taxpayers. Clearly this whole mess could be avoided if Walker sided with the PEOPLE instead of the Corporations.

One last thought

A study published by The Harvard Education Review, found that "states with greater percentages of teachers in unions reported higher test performance". This study also compares ACT and SAT scores among the states, and it controls for factors like race, median income, and parental education. The study found that going to school in a union state would raise average SATs by about 50 points. Weird...

Trashing the Capitol??? Did you see what the Teabaggers and Conservatives did to the Washington Mall last year? The trash and filth they left are indicative of the garbage they are - these people hate America.

A study published by The Harvard Education Review, found that "states with greater percentages of teachers in unions reported higher test performance". This study also compares ACT and SAT scores among the states, and it controls for factors like race, median income, and parental education. The study found that going to school in a union state would raise average SATs by about 50 points. Weird...

you are right thats like a x-files sort of thing... someone quick!! call moulder and scully! ya, sure, and when i see how ignorant, and yes stupid the kids are being when released from school, hear all about the school bullying, and this and that, when you say a union makes kids smarter? sry but it makes as much sence as trying to swim on top af a lake thats froze over. teachers make kids smarter, and by the actions, response, and so on by the kids who were protesting for these so called teachers, i have a feeling we are in for a hell of a next generation. considering they had no clue why they were there, what they were protesting about, and how at least one didnt even know who the governor was, lol. as far as wisc being one of the top in the nation after that, now i am worried.

Kedbob-I got news for you, I owned my own business. When my wife and I were debating this, not one time were we thinking, "Let's do this so we can put people to work." I knew I would have to have employees and I helped my employees all I could, but putting people was not my goal. My goal, much like most other businesses, was to create a strong company that provided for me, my wife and my son. A business that would allow to do things and go places we wanted to do and go.

Dave,

I agree! The public sector should be free of unions. The public good has to be the first priority.

It's not x-files, it's right here her.hepg.org/content/w17t1201442683k6 the funny thing is the study they were actually doing was to see if teachers unions hinder educational performance, what they found was the opposite. I'm sure you won't take the time to read it and understand why, instead of intelligent argument with things called FACTS as my previous post contained, you prefer to go off of what you hear?

BTW I noticed you conveniently ignored the rest of my post which shows how this mess started in the first place. Selective listening is about as dangerous as greed is in this country.

Why do the yella Dems who ran away believe that they are acting on behalf of democracy? What is the Democratic definition of democracy? They may be acting on behalf of Democrats but not of democracy. Big difference. They have subverted democracy. When faced with the Obummercare vote, Republicans did not run away, as much as they probably wanted to. They stayed on the job , no matter how painful it was. Shame on the yella Dems who ran away from their responsibilities.

JC from IA,

And, then the GOP proceeded to delay every bit of legislation they could for as long as they could.

Really? LOL! How could they do that? I kept hearing that from the Dems because the Dems wanted all the crappy legislation they were coming up with to be bipartisan. LOL! There was nothing the Republicans could do about any Dem legislation. Thought you were smart enough to know that.

@Stevie,

no i didnt ignore the rest of your post, i just found that one part to be just a bit more funny than the rest, even tho myself and everyone else kind of beat you to YOUR post as far as reasons why we dont need a union. as i said before, i have worked for a few union based shops, as well non union, as well has my own buisness for a short time. i happen to know a bit more about unions than some, because i had the time in and out of them. i was happier NOT being in a union. my job felt MORE secure, because my employment status meant how much effort i put into my job, my skills, and my hard work, vs showing up to work, and doing something, as long as it LOOKED productive. in that being as it was i didnt have to worry about being the lower man with time being laid off first, when i wasnt in the union. i didnt have to worry about some tool telling i was working myself out of a job, because i worked harder than they did. fact was, even when i was at my lasy union job, my boss did everything he could to keep me on, until someone cried to the union about it. then the union boss went to the owner and i got my walking papers, yay! i was kept on as long i was for 4 years, because i was early every day, i worked to EARN my pay, and i did what it took to get the job done, and on time, and with quality. not because some union scab said my boss had to keep me. not because i was like a little tool paying my dues, not because i shot the sh!t 1/2 the day when the boss wasnt looking, but because i appretiated my job, my pay,my boss, and so on. union doesnt give someone that by being in a union, that comes from being a hard worker, who is serious in the field they chose, who wants to not impress anyone but the person who is seeing their work.

teachers i will admit have a bit harder time seeing that type of result, but i dont see them trying as hard either. then again, i dont remember a lot of union drools trying very hard once that foot was in the door, and they were part of the union, very few. so when people cry to me my poor union, i can care less, just means when you DO get a job, you work like the rest of us. you show you are worth your pay to be kept. you show up on time with enough time to spare to plan your day, rather ruch in the door last minute and look around like an idiot wondering whats going on for your day. you show appretiation for your job by staying late if they need you without trying to bend them over the barrel. here's something to boot.... think about this once. my last job right before i was laid off, because the customer backed off on his contract, my boss told me, a different customer needed a job done. i stayed, worked a little over 12 hrs with just a 15 minute break, and i was pounding out the product. i didnt ask my boss for anything, not one thing, he did me a favor keeping me on as long as he was able to, and i knew without him saying it was going to be my last week cause work was drying up. his simple thank you for getting this done for me, i appretiate it was enough. even when i got laid off the next week, i didnt cry about it, even tho i was upset, i needed the job, but i understood as well, if theres no work, i cant be standing around collecting welfare. did i work myself out of a job? no. if it wasnt finished he would have been able to keep the other guy who got laid off with me for 2 more days. but i got a good refrence, i got self respect, and earned, yes EARNED my respect with that employer, even tho he might not be able to call me back this year.because there is no work! but i dont go around thinking people OWE me something just because i am in a union, or anything. they owe me my check at the end of the week for a job well done, nothing more, nothing less. anything else to me is a bonus, as it should be.

Steve in iowa-2981981

Just to clear a couple of things up since you think the unions are "scabs." Wisconsin public schools are currently one of the best school systems in the country and at the same time rank 20th in terms of average teacher pay ($25,000 starting and average is $46,000 plus the TEACHERS have to pay for all of their ongoing education out of pocket as well as about 50%-70% of their class room materials (roughly $5-7k per year between the two). I wouldn't say that qualifies the teachers as "scabs."

Please site your source, with year of publication..

Because In another thread I have used, and supplied links, to material that says the average paycheck for a WI Teacher is 80 some odd thousand. 51,000 in cash, 30,000+ thousand in Bennies..

I also sited reports where in the last 10 years they have added THOUSANDs to their per child costs ( currently in the 10s of thousands spent per child ) and have not increased their test scores.

I sited reports from the DoE that said one third of eighth graders cannot read on grade level. Only two percent of all eighth graders are on an advanced reading level.

I sited reports from the DoE that said less then 45 percent of all WI high school students Graduate.

SO I know for a fact that they are not in the the best of the country catagory, and I supplied proof to back up my claims.

Where is yours?

Excellent post kedbob (2.15)! I'm quite amused at the rebuttal by Megaladon...what a pitiful, uneducated paragraph of drivel. LMFAO! The poor soul doesn't even know what a SCAB is??

Kostoniann.. (#2.23)" Did you see what the Teabaggers and Conservatives did to the Washington Mall last year? The trash and filth they left are indicative of the garbage they are"

How dare you !!!....Your statement is what is trash....The same far left radical communist, socialist, UNION groups that have assembled in Wisconsin are the same ones that trashed up DC at the One Nation rally.

http://www.leftcoastrebel.com/2010/10/photos-october-2-onenation-rally-aerial.html

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2010/10/15-photos-from-onenation-rally-youll.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jsG3RbfBug&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DYRuqmokAg&feature=related

Refute that......

Kostoniann...Here's one more....from The Obama InauguCoronation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMrJE7J3fWU

Idiots

Dave-1384240 "Get rid of public service unions all together. They generally don't produce anything (education may be an exception, but lately US public education is lagging) and they use their collective bargaining and striking to extort money from the tax-paying public - you know the people who do manufacture and work real jobs."

Interestingly, Franklin Roosevelt, perhaps the most liberal President we've ever had, recognized the danger in allowing public employee unions to gain too much power without a counter balance, so he opposed them while strongly pushing unions in the private sector.

Allowing public employee unions to spend huge sums of money to elect politicians that will give in to their demands "or else" is just too much of a 'conflict of interest'.

If nothing else, public employee unions should be prohibited from making political contributions to avoid the 'conflict of interest'.

A recent study showed that Federal civilian workers were compensated MORE THAN DOUBLE the average compensation FOR EQUIVALENT JOBS in the private sector (accountants, lawyers, clerks, managers, secretaries, etc.). It was all because of the huge political contributions that the unions make to politicians that will give them whatever they ask, since it's just the 'taxpayer' that gets stuck with the bill.

roosevelt turned our nation into a welfare state and accomplished nothing else. the war is what fixed the economy back then. and we are left with all the bad ideas and people sitting around waiting for the monthly handout.

well sure the war fixed it, how wouldnt it, when at the time the government turned it into a profit machine? it put women into the factories working low wages, in the meantime what it did pay them it got some in return. men time young men were being slaughtered on the battlefield, each one another job opening in some factory when the war was over. we all know WWI, WWII, had the best wages and combat pay too right? yet back then it was also a nation who got things done, and didnt slit your throat for any penny you had in your pocket, while at the same time the new warriors call seems to be about rights. yet then whos rights are you guys fighting for again? ooooh that's right.... the real reason is the right NOT to opt out of the union....lol.

the union is willing to toss you under the bus so it can stay in the game, but you guys just keep missing that dont you? you cry "it would have been nice to have been asked", but last i heard you didnt get asked when the mandatory layoff slips hit your hand do you?

WAKE UP PEOPLE!!! The Unions, which were a one time solely for the average worker, have turned into high-paid Political Activist. Most of your Union Dues go to pay High Salaries to Union Bosses and spend the majority of the rest to Bribe Politicians. The Politicians then accept the bribes and support whatever the Union wants during the Politicians term of office. But it's just not the Union Members that pay, everyone pays when the taxes are increased and then you pay more for food, clothing and housing, everyone pays for these. So out of these dues, the Union Members still see their pay reduced. Public Employees work for the State Taxpayer and actually the everyday tax payer supports the wages and benefits for the Public Employee. But when the Public Employee holds the taxpayer hostage, as in Wisconsin, you will get a taxpayer revolt. This has nothing to do with Union Busting, it has everything to do with Democrats paying back the Unions for their more than generous support. Actually, the Public Employees in WI are some of the highest paid Public Employees on States in General and the highest paid in their State. In WI. they may win the battle but they will loose the war when 6,000+ of their Union Members loose their jobs. But that's alright because the Democrats will still have the Labor Vote, the Union Bosses will get their huge salaries and the members will still have their bargaining - but everyone will pay higher taxes and fees and get less service. The Unions are doing a dis-service to the State Employees in WI.

Megalodon

now what you said about the unions buying favor, apply to corporations and ask yourself who is winning and who is taking us down?

I am all for constraints on public sector unions, since they are now persons just like corporations. You are a non-person just like me. Can't you see that?

Anything of value attracts criminality. Some systems make criminality easy. Do you have any idea what work conditions were before unions were conjured into being? I know of no business with a union that didn't scream for union. Unions will not form where employees are equitably compensated for their contributions. Have you noticed that these "titans" have no allegiance to the people of the country that birthed them? Have you noticed that tax cuts AND stimulus monies have created no jobs, instead having disappeared into the pockets deep enough to hold them? Have you not been aware that companies have offshore outsourced our lives?

The time is now to destroy this system and the monsters that live at its summit. Now or never. The situation is near critical mass, beyond the point of hope. Don't die a fool.

Dave,

Next time you need police or fire assistance remember your ignorant statement! They public workers do the jobs most people would never do. Teachers and the education system are lagging due to the lack of fiscal responsibility of the government. They do not fund our future and this is where our society ends up. The government needs to tighten the belt of the other programs that are draining our society of morals and money. Welfare should be regulated like a public or private job. We almost all have to be subjected to random drug screening. Why not welfare recipients? To keep our paycheck we as working Americans have to ! So leave the name calling and stereo types out of this issue and focus on the more important ones. How to make government more responsible for their spending.

By the way is the governor of any of these states willing to concede on any of their benefits or pay to help their states financial short falls??

Allen H.

fiscal responsibility of the government is why teachers ar lagging? hmmmm how does that figure in? what, is there a shortage of chalk? does it take $ per hour more for a teacher to teach rather sit their clump behind a desk and babysit? ya, gotta love this! 2nd grade class, kids took off all their clothes in one case, and in the same room on a seprrate day 2 were engaging in oral sex in front of the class, while the teacher snoozed or something. got paid too when they suspended him. ya, real responsible teacher there huh!? so when you talk finances the teachers supposedly deserve, and how funds are lacking, it dont take funds to make kids smarter, it takes teacher willing to teach, and i dont see it, not in the last 3 yrs!

oh, btw, when i call the fire dept, police dept, they will come, because they are not included in the bill, THEY ARE EXSEMPT! so get away from the union propaganda machine.... its getting inside your head.

Allen, Next time your in Detroit proper and need a policeman a fireman or a EMT call 911. And look at your watch, Unless there is a firearm involved or felony drugs. You will wait and wait and wait. My neighbor had her car stolen out of her driveway. They told her to come down to the Precinct and file a report. No one came out or even drove by! Which is why if I go out to walk my dogs I carry (legally) a weapon.

to heck with all. lets just not have police, firefighters, teachers, lets just simple get ridd of it all no more services for anybody, just maybe all state workers in wisconsin sould simply not show up to work for a weeks and see how the state looks. maybe then republican sheep will get ther heads out of ther rearends. quite giving tax breakes to business and the rich trickle down never worked so while you have your heads up there check your prostates.

Can't keep cutting budget from education for years while spending $$ like a drunken sailor on wars and expect to have a world class education.

I'm surprised some posters here don't care about the middle class. I bet they will still be happy if the president (ceo) get couple of million dollar salary and the public workers get measly 20k a yr salary just like the private sector.

All the democrats are worried about is losing their biggest contributor. If you really think they care about you your wrong. Money Money Money thats all this is about on both sides. Someday maybe this country will wake up to that. I worked union for 20 years and all we ever heard is vote Democrat vote Democrat. What did they do for me raised my taxes and give it to people who don't work. When I found out about the Dem's allowing people to get more tax refund then they paid on I can't tell you how outraged I was. Imagine working at Wal-mart making 18K a year and pay maybe $600 or 800 in federal taxes from your check during the year and receiving a refund of $4000 or $5000! That what Democrats do. No Thanks.

had-enough-470242

Can't keep cutting budget from education for years while spending $$ like a drunken sailor on wars and expect to have a world class education.

Since this is about WI education and money, why dont you look at how much the state currently spends on Education...

I have found 2007 levels and it was over 10 thousand per student. 2003 levels was 8 thousand..

SO lets stick with the 10 thousand dollars per student.. ( we can assume that its more but I havent found numbers to back it up..

Assuming since they spend so much money on the students, they should be doing well right?

I have never heard of these sites, but thats what you get when you google something.. SO take it for what it is.. Either way it makes you think..

from http://www.troyrecord.com/articles/2011/02/22/opinion/doc4d62d91feb0f5402599892.txt?viewmode=2

n Nearly one-third of Wisconsin public school teachers send their kids to private schools, nearly 40 percent when only high schools are included.

n Only 47 percent of Wisconsin high school students graduate, barley one-third of black students get a diploma;

The average teacher’s pay in Wisconsin is $89,527 ($51,000 salary, $38,527 in benefits);

Pretty telling right there.. Specially the graduation rate.. Kinda low if you ask me.. BUT THEN it gets worse:

From http://cnsnews.com/news/article/two-thirds-wisconsin-public-school-8th-g# ( There are a lot of papers covering this one I just took the top result )

In the National Assessment of Educational Progress tests administered by the U.S. Department of Education in 2009—the latest year available—only 32 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned a “proficient” rating while another 2 percent earned an “advanced” rating. The other 66 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned ratings below “proficient,” including 44 percent who earned a rating of “basic” and 22 percent who earned a rating of “below basic.”

SO whos doing their job again?

I dont think its the Teachers here.. And before you go bashing me as anti teacher.. My mother just retired from being a teacher ( not a Union State ) and my aunt has been in Education for 20 some odd years. 1st in the classroom, then in the library. So yes teachers kinda run in my family....

nice post jeremy, and thanx for the links!

Franklin Roosevelt wrote this in 1937, deal with it. He was right then as he is right today!! He is your hero democrats. Cat got your tongue?

"The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service," President Franklin D. Roosevelt wrote in 1937 to the head of the National Federation of Federal Employees. In the private sector, organized employees and the employer meet across the bargaining table as (theoretical) equals. But in the public sector, said FDR, "the employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress." Allowing public-employee unions to engage in collective bargaining would mean opening the door to the manipulation of government policy by a privileged private interest.

FDR was right. Collective bargaining has no place in the public sector. It inevitably leads to abuse. Favoritism, undue influence, lack of transparency, manipulation of government policy, the relentless mulcting of the taxpayer—this is the poisoned fruit of turning government agencies into union shops.

Jeremy, right on the money dude!!!

And I dont know where teachers are getting paid 30k! Here in my neighborhood Detroit, I have teachers that are making anywhere from 60 to 80k for 9 months of the school year. I play golf with a lot of them during the summer either before or after I go to work. Once they hit tenure at 5 years they can pretty much do what they want, as long as its not illegal. I will leave you with this thought, And I really like my neighbor, shes a teacher of 25 years teaching 4th grade in a Detroit suburb. She makes 89k with all her bene's paid. On Sunday sitting in my house watching a NBC news special on Gadhafi and she says...... Where is Libya? I was stunned that she asked me that question.

jollyoldsoul, your example is more than misleading. The average teacher pay in MI is just over 50K, with the average in Detroit being lower. While it is possible she was paid that much, it is highly unlikely.

The actual numbers from 2008-2009:

Allen, if funding is the problem, how do you explain the fact that private schools consistently turn out better educated students at a lower cost?

I fully agree that our education system is broken but funding is not the issue. Honestly, I think if we swapped the defense budget and the education budget the military would find a way to succeed and schools would still fail. Throwing money at a black hole just means you're losing money.

GhostDragon, your just flat out WRONG. When you add salarys plus benefits, the average Detroit teacher makes between 72,000 and 85,000 depending on length of service. Not bad for 9 months work. Two of my closest friends have lived in that city for over 30 years, and one of them IS a teacher.

Only one problem Detroit teachers % wise have some of poorest performance records in that business. Public employees don't need "protection" from the public, the public needs protection from them, just as FDR said in 1937!!!

"When you add salarys plus benefits, the average Detroit teacher makes between 72,000 and 85,000 depending on length of service."

You do realize you're talking about professionals with bachelor's degrees and in some cases master's degrees, right?! If you compare those numbers with other professions requiring bachelor's degrees, you will find that they are pathetic, much like your argument.

The average salary for a person with a Bachelor's Degree was $48,351 in 2010 and its down from 2009. A masters is $62,300. A teacher with a Bachelor's degree makes an average of $44,916 and with a masters its $69,859. So in reality a teacher with a bachelor's is a little underpaid, not grossly as some suggest, and with a masters a little overpaid. Then you take into account that they pay less for their benefits plus as a full-time can have their federal perkins loans cancelled. Many school systems offer vacation days DURING the school year (not the whole year, just during the school year), summer teaching optional, teachers have it so horribly bad.

what good little drones people are...........the republicans ( like Hitler once did)

just have to point a finger and proclaim "THERE IS YOUR ENEMY!!!" and non thinking humans just eat it up.

Teachers and unions are NOT the enemy.............Wisconsin's Governor is........you don't see him giving up his big paycheck and benefits to balance the budget, I mean, where else could a C student who dropped out of college make such a great living with such great benefits and wield so much power to hurt others?.............only in America, and obviously in Wisconsin where folks should be looking hard at the source of what is going on...the republican Governor and his republican majority.

This shortfall was created because the Governor gave huge tax cuts to the wealthy and corporate of Wisconsin and had to use up all the surplus that the state had to offset the loss of revenue and now is deficit heavy and asking teachers to make up the difference.....the rich get richer and the poor get poorer....where are the jobs this corporate tax lacking sector are supposed to provide?..........

If republicans get their way 98% of Americans will be minimum wages earners with no benefits and this recession will last decades..........while the rich get richer (along with the republican politician's they OWN).

People used to be smarter than this..............Bush's plan of dumbing down America seems to have been successful.................

another great republican accomplishment.....dumb them down, take away their education and benefits and make them happy to accept that minimum wage job...............

soon their plan to turn this once great country into a fiefdom..........get ready you morons.....here it comes thanks to your lazy aggressive attitude and your need to be a part of the hate regime.

Go Wisconsin.

Debbie, try again. Walker has included himself, his cabinet and the legislature in this plan. And while I've not heard any talk of him returning a portion of his Governor's salary to the state, that is exactly what he did every year he served as Milwaukee County Executive. For the first 6 years, it was, I believe, nearly 47% that was returned, the last 2 only $10k per year but please, show me someone who's done more. And in case you're wondering, the salary offered to the CE is just shy of $130k, Walker returned $60k per year for 6 years.

Debbie McCarten

Lets break everything you said down...

what good little drones people are...........the republicans ( like Hitler once did)

This one is pretty classic, Link the republicans to Hitler, I must say an oldie bug goodie as far as talking points go.

just have to point a finger and proclaim "THERE IS YOUR ENEMY!!!" and non thinking humans just eat it up.

Wouldnt this be what Obama did when he pointed Moveon.org to go protest in Madison? Whos the non-thinker here?

Teachers and unions are NOT the enemy.............Wisconsin's Governor is........you don't see him giving up his big paycheck and benefits to balance the budget, I mean, where else could a C student who dropped out of college make such a great living with such great benefits and wield so much power to hurt others?.............only in America, and obviously in Wisconsin where folks should be looking hard at the source of what is going on...the republican Governor and his republican majority.

So you are calling the Gvner a Dropout? or someone else? I havent researched the Gvner, or the grades he made, just trying to clarify. The folks of Wi did look at at the source of whats going on. They did it last November when they broke a long trend of Democratic Majoritys and elected the current batch of Reps. To paraphrase Obama, Elections have consquences. I Won, I dont care if they come to the Dance, but they are going to have to sit at the back of the bus.....

This shortfall was created because the Governor gave huge tax cuts to the wealthy and corporate of Wisconsin and had to use up all the surplus that the state had to offset the loss of revenue and now is deficit heavy and asking teachers to make up the difference.....the rich get richer and the poor get poorer....where are the jobs this corporate tax lacking sector are supposed to provide?..........

Lets just forget that WI had some of the highest Corporate Taxes in the country. That business' were leaving in waves. The more that leave, the higher your UE level goes, and then where are you at.

If you like it or not, sometimes you have to bite the bullet, to keep business in your State to keep the people living there working. This move will create more money then it costs in the long run. Though I will admit, another nice use of your talking points..

If republicans get their way 98% of Americans will be minimum wages earners with no benefits and this recession will last decades..........while the rich get richer (along with the republican politician's they OWN).

So can you site where even ONE republican has said they want the majority of Americans making Minimum wage? or are you talking out your arse?

People used to be smarter than this..............Bush's plan of dumbing down America seems to have been successful.................

Ahh, almost let an entire vine go without the mention of Bush. Gotta get that talking point in. Even if it holds no water.

another great republican accomplishment.....dumb them down, take away their education and benefits and make them happy to accept that minimum wage job...............

soon their plan to turn this once great country into a fiefdom..........get ready you morons.....here it comes thanks to your lazy aggressive attitude and your need to be a part of the hate regime.

What?

I dont even know how to respond to this.. Pretty much mindless dribble, with some talking points thrown in.. Cant you do any better.

Jeremy

the Governor IS a C student and a drop out from college.......and if I read you response correctly, and thanks so much for taking the time to read mine, you are saying that in order to make jobs we have to sacrifice jobs?

Tell that to the people that are going to be on the losing end of that stick...what would you say if it was YOU that was losing your job to make way for the "hope" that corporate America will respond with jobs?...because so far corporate America has benefited a LOT and done very little to ease the jobless situation................how much do we have to give and sacrifice before corporate America takes all the money we have given over to them before they show their appreciation and create more jobs?

This is not something to just yell about, real people with families (actual live children) are going to suffer...............but I suppose if YOU are not the one to suffer it must be kind of like "out of sight out of mind"..........perhaps soup lines will be coming back and it would ironic if folks such as yourself were left standing in them...and of course the government will not fund free loaders who want to eat so we better hope that the churches are doing well enough to feed everyone.

and everything I said about Bush is history.........it is in the books for all eternity and true.............and yes the US's ranking in the global community as far as education is concerned has plummeted---the US is getting dumber and less capable to compete with the world community. Perhaps we should all start learning Chinese, it would make it so much easier when they call in their note--and yes Bush did finance the wars we are in by borrowing from China.

It is republicans who are always working to block proposals for increase in the minimum wage saying businesses would go under from having to pay more.....got to protect that profit margin.

at least under every republican i had a steady job, cant say that when the dems were running things, but then again, i dont believe in blowing the union boss to keep my job either.

you are saying that in order to make jobs we have to sacrifice jobs?

Where did I say this? You wont find it anywhere because I didnt..

and everything I said about Bush is history.........it is in the books for all eternity and true.............and yes the US's ranking in the global community as far as education is concerned has plummeted---the US is getting dumber and less capable to compete with the world community. Perhaps we should all start learning Chinese, it would make it so much easier when they call in their note--and yes Bush did finance the wars we are in by borrowing from China.

Why are we getting dumber? could it be that we have teachers making 80 thousand a year ( See my posts above for the average teachers pay + bennies in WI ) and they arent doing their job? Could it be that even spending over 10 thousand dollars a year PER student in WI, one third of their 8th graders cannot read on level, and only two percent are above level? Could it be spending THAT Much money per student and only having 45 percent of their high school seniors graduate??

Time to think for yourself Debbie.. When what we are currently doing, IS NOT working, time to change things up..

AS for me standing in a soup kitchen line, sorry thats not going to happen. I know what its like to be laid off, been there done that. I worked two jobs to pay off my debt, and made it where I only had to work one. I was raised to know exactly what is needed and what wasnt. Single parent home, my mother making less then 12k a year.. Still had a roof over our heads, and was able to eat. I have lived off of 8.00 an hour before, and I know I could do it now IF I had to. Something that I think most cannot do these days.

I am not rich, far from it.. Hell right now im living pay check to paycheck just like everyone else.. You might want to get off your entiltment kick, and get back to a you get what you earn. If you do Min wage work, you get min wage pay. IF I was a teacher with the results that WI has I would expect to get fired, because I am not doing my job.

"If nothing else, public employee unions should be prohibited from making political contributions to avoid the 'conflict of interest'."

When corporations are prohibited as well as PACs that do not have to report their membership, I'd agree. Til then, not so much.

"Allen, if funding is the problem, how do you explain the fact that private schools consistently turn out better educated students at a lower cost?"

Because private schools don't have to educate everyone. They can screen out the special needs students, including those who have a developmental disability. They can expel even the least of the behavior problems. And the public schools can't. Additionally, the biggest predictor of academic success is socio-economic status. Guess which class the private schools are full of?

Jeremy

Minimum wage should allow a person to earn enough to have a roof over their head, food on the table, clothes on their backs, a decent education so they can be successful in society and the ability to seek medical care if needed............in the riches nation in the world we should be able to do better than $8.00 an hour............the latest bonuses handed out in wall street were in the $20 Million range (for one individual)...........that is just the bonuses, sure makes bringing home $15,360 a year before taxes look pretty bad. (now remember most teachers have not just a bachelors degree but a masters and some PHD's..........so with that they should get better pay, don't you think?)

One reason we are allowing the dumbing down of America is because teachers are required by the state and school districts to teach as though this is the 1950's............today's teachers need to be able to teach through immersion and not just memorization and kids should be able to learn at an accelerated speed...a lot of kids get bored these days, their minds are highly active and can process at a rate that the states and school districts highly underestimate...........most teachers would love to teach using immersion but the state and district curriculum are restrictive and outdated....and of course their class sizes just keep getting bigger and bigger as education is slowly being defunded.

I don't feel it is an entitlement but a basic human need, for a person so want to provide for their families...........most of us just want to work and make our own way, but in this economy that is not possible for many and society being selfish and apathetic toward those in need during these hard times is a horrid way for grown ups to act. I believe is helping others when they are down and out....and nope, when I was a kid no one ever helped us ( wish they had--maybe my Dad would not have taken it out on us and maybe my Mom would not have had to work two jobs and leave us kids home alone so much) and yes my brother used to steal stuff from the grocery store.....things were awful and everyone knew it and no one helped.............so I help when I can and I vote for taxes for programs that help people when they can't help themselves and I do not feel these programs or a livable wage are entitlements but they are the right thing to do.

Take away the unions and good luck getting teachers to work in Wisconsin..........good teachers are needed in other states too. Teachers make a lot less than the Governor of Wisconsin..........so why is Wisconsin in this mess if we pay this guy a very good living..maybe he should be making $40,000 a year and pay for his own benefits until he does a better job, because it seems politicians keep voting themselves raises and benefits even when they do a lousy job.....oh, that is right politician don't need unions to protect their needs as they have the authority to vote their own salaries and benefits packages.................oh, if we could all be so lucky.

I do think for myself.........maybe that is why we disagree............if everyone thought the same how dumb would that be?

thanks again for reading my post................I hope someone if there for you if you ever need it.

if we know what it is like to do without and be afraid then surely we must remember how wonderful and grateful we were when someone reached out and helped us.....

also, Hitler and the KKK were the only ones in my life time that used this tactic of directing the public's anger at a certain group or individual and allowing it to become an evil murderous entity bent on destruction....so that is the history I call upon.

Fear and anger are very powerful forces.........a lot of bad stuff can happen when these two emotions are allowed free reign and then incensed under the guise of public justice...............fear and anger never lead to justice.

And the non hard working members of your wife's union are protected making individuals like your wife work twice as hard for the same money. Great mentality, pass that onto your kids...it will reap great benefits for this country. Just ask Detroit and the Auto Workers...oh wait...there isn't any union protection in Mexico.

HEY WAIT THERE ISN'T A DETROIT IN MEXICO!!

Any questions?

FormerSGT..(#4.1)....I typed "Detroit, Mexico" in a language translator ...and it came back with " Ramos Arispe, Mexico".....oddly enough, the site of GM brand spanking new plant in Mexico......How much of our taxpayer bailout money to GM went for this ???????

"General Motors will invest $500 million to produce a new vehicle and eight-cylinder engines in a plant in northeastern Mexico, a company spokesman said on August 4.

The decision was announced at a meeting on August 3 between GM management and Mexican officials, the spokesman said, without giving details of the new vehicle.

The investment in the GM plant in Ramos Arispe, Coahuila state, would generate 390 jobs, he added.

General Motors has been present in Mexico since 1935, where it has some 11,000 workers, four factories, an engineering center and a test circuit.

http://industryweek.com/articles/gm_to_build_new_vehicle__at_plant_in_mexico_22462.aspx

.

JC from IA

I see you made your point....literally

.

Well, since you're a moderator here, and all, maybe you can tell me how to delete a post that wound up posting in the wrong thread?

Oh, and, perhaps you can explain why the system reports "Changes Saved", then doesn't save them.

TIA.

JC from IA...seriously....I'm not any kind of moderator....I enjoy sparring though...but stop with personal insults to other Viner's.....they only make the comment weak....say what you want about politicians, whatever....

for real....just close the page and come back to it and your misplaced box will be gone.....No idea on "saved Changes"

Ding, ding, ding....Round 4.......TIA ???

Hey mike, most countries have laws that allow widgets sold in thier country must be made in there country. I know in our company with over 300 global sites, we are mandated to manufacture the parts in country as part of their JIT process.

frag2227198.

What you are saying really is one sided, "pay people according to their worth to society" try to live in an inner city of your state, or any area for that matter, without the services of a sanitation workman.

Your seem to say that paying teachers more would make them better teachers, think about that, how foolish it sounds..Demand quality teahcers and teaching.

As of now, a teacher will get paid whether they do a good job or not..I think you insult thos teachers that do a pretty good job, with the pay they receive Now!

I wish personally, there was more accountability for the work of teachers, or are we saying that every student that fails does so because of their inability to learn.

Paying more to a teacher, so that they can finally teach is an insult to every taxpayer..

Believe it or not, I speak as a retired school teaher, I know what I have seen in, and out of the classroom...

Bust the unions !!! Get rid of them all together...we, as a country, would be better off without them !!! And if they call for a strike - replace them all !!!

Unions - and I mean ALL of them have held companies and governments hostage for way too long !!! It's time to take back what should have been done years ago !!

What do unions do anyway ? They only cause trouble !!! They create a higher wage for someone doing less work and who isn't qualified !!!

That's funny. The posts of people arguing against educators' rights to bargain are littered with grammatical errors. Perhaps, you just don't believe in education.

Jordan5th...That is an amazing "coincidence"??!! Gives you an idea of what we're up against. Passing a test in basic civics and economics should be mandatory to vote in this country.

Jordan Perhaps we did not get the education that our parents were paying for!

Go Dems!!!!

Keep commiting political suicide!!!

The one worthwhile thing Dems have done for the future is to ensure their own extinction.

Unions will cost this country dearly , as they already have cost tax payers a tremendous amount of money. Your Wife should not be afraid to try the public sector if she is any good at what she does. People who suck at their jobs tend to flock to unions because they protect the incapable ones.

As they realize their gravy train is coming to an end, look for the dems and the unions to become increasingly shrill and irrational which unfortunately sometimes translates to violence.

"Go Dems !!!!!!

My wife work at Kaiser Hosp and is in a Union and loves the job security. She used to work for a temp agency at Kaiser until an opening came up. There were many people vying for that Union job and my wife hard work paid off. That was 4 years ago."

Once again a liberal thinking only of themselves!!!!!

That's too funny midwesterner!! Liberals, thinking only of themselves...the liberals are the only ones that have enough heart to give a flip about others....minorities, low income, disabled, immigrants, homosexuals, non-Christian Americans, etc. For Christ sake, the liberals even get themselves in trouble taking up for others. Republicans only think of themselves and of their own bank account. So, don't try to spin that one

Lifeisgood, For your information Kaiser is not a public employer and the union is not a public employees union. The governor and republicans are not targeting all unions, only public employee unions. You are aware that only 24 states allow collective bargaining by public employee unions, 17 states allow limited collective bargaining and 9 states have no such law or laws that forbid contracts of public employer and a labor union.

lifeisgood43

Typical. This is good for ME, so the hell with whats right.

Gratz on being a model liberal.

It still doesn't change the fact that unions are organized crime and had their place in time, but that time is over and now they are just a lobbyist out for themselves at the expense of others.

You should be proud.

And to all you Democrats who applaud the actions of these traitors, you should be ashamed.

Maybe the DNC should change their motto to "when the tough gets going, we leave the state".

Pathetic, but then again so is the DNC.

ya Patrick i hear ya all too well. they only hear what they want to hear sad to say. see, what they all didnt read somehow was, well the unions were willing to let 1,500 people take a layoff, and whatever cuts the govoner was willing to make, meaning possibly more of a pay cut, paying more into the pension, and even more than 1,500 people out of work, just to keep that bill from being passed.

see here's the thing, in that bill it just limits a few things, and they are not very important things unless you are a union scab. that being, employees have a right not to be in the union if they dont want to be, nor do they have to have dues taken out of their checks, they pay it in person.

so, being they have to pay dues in person saves the state $ from writing another check, meantime the employee who wishes to stay in the union, reaches for a simple little blank check and makes it out to their exstortionist.

so when is it so hard to make a check out? is it that 15-40 seconds it takes to write the check, and put in the ledger, and subtract a little? putting it in the US Mail, or what? basically thats what this is about, because the unions dont want you to have the option of not paying them. they want the $ to come right from your payroll to them. thing is you get to keep your union scab going if you feel like it, and if you dont, well...lol, too bad for them. thats what the union is up in arms about, nothing more. yet like lemmings out to sea, there goes the whole bunch of silly folks thinking its the end of labor as we know it, lol.

Wow. I see a lot of jealous people has decided to attack my wife for making a better choice in her life. So typical of the haters who can't stand that someone decides the best thing for them.

To all of you who attack me and my wife for her Union job, I say to you, deal with it. My wife will be at her Union job for many years. In fact, Kaiser just built a new hospital and offer her an even better job. Wow huh. Hard work does pay off

And what does your wife's union job have to do with public employees unions in Wisconsin or any other state? Kaiser is not a public employer but a private employer. I could give a crap about you and your wife, it has nothing to do with this conversation.

My comments have nothing to do with your wife, it's with YOUR attitude of 'if it benefits me then I am for it'.

The typical ME ME ME attitude our government has instilled in our society with is rampant overtaking of just about everything and promising a better life while having to do and pay much less.

Any comments about your wife I will leave up to the mailman.

lifeisgood43

Wow. I see a lot of jealous people has decided to attack my wife for making a better choice in her life. So typical of the haters who can't stand that someone decides the best thing for them.

actually, nobayd made any type of attack on you aor your wife, othe the same comment you pasted on 3 other articles. yes buddy, some of us viners we do comment on more than one article, and onlt 1 person made a response to your comment, and it was a far cry from an attack, on either of you. if you want someone to attack you, just paste a sign on your back saying unions are never healing scabs.... that should do it seeing how some are crying for blood and all.

sfcret..... I just told our story on why Unions are a great thing whether it is public or private. Me and my wife stand side by side with the Unions. Like I said deal with it.

WI Unions never give up !!!!!!

Patrick... wow. You need to seek some help for your Jealous issue.

Also isn't it all about helping yourself to have a better life. The crazy thing about how wrong you haters of Unions are is that you think that people shouldn't go all out to give themselves everything. Corps do it. Govern Walker is doing it. It blows my freaking mind that some of you want people to not take the best deal for themselves. You people don't make any sense at all.

Wow a mailman joke at the end of your hateful comment. I don't get it.

Megalodon.... are you my dad or mom. I can post the same freaking comment if I want to. Are you going to stop me. Hell no. I got some advice for you. You can not read any of my comment. You can skip over any comment I make by not responding to my name.

Can you read because it was more than one person okay.

My joke at the end was just a simple twist to what is amounting to a heated argument.

So, I am supposed to feel sorry for a group of democrats, who are in dereliction of their elected responsibility, for walking away from an issue they don't agree with? That is ridiculous.

And am I supposed to feel sorry for people who get benefits from a union that has deep pockets and has lobbied the president to allow them to sidestep Obamacare and many other perks while I have to pay my fair share of health insurance for being non union?

Do you even know what you are talking about?

All I got from you post was 'this is good for me, so I am for it'.

Who gives a rat's butt. All I see from your post is ME ME ME ME ME.

Thinking about anyone else I believe is beyond your comprehension.

And as for the elected officials who walked out, they should be hanged for treason. They act like someone who started a fight then won't show up in the schoolyard to face the competition.

Pathetic....

And according to your wife, you don't get it. (joke.. ha ha... laugh a little)

It's what the public wants genius...everyone that could counter protest is working and won't leave because they like their jobs.

JC from IA..(#5.2)..."Dumbass" ???.....we don't do that on here....

Anyway, the Governor won election by the same margin Dear Leader Obama won by.....so, one is labeled a landslide and one "not such a wide margin".....interesting...

A poll of 400 people conducted by a democratic pollster is hardly convincing.

I would put more credibility in the big poll last November

JC how bout the Dems coming back to the state and doing their jobs. How bout the union workers getting back to work and doing their jobs.

Baloney. Within days of taking office obama made it clear that his mantra was to be "We won" and "elections have consequences". He rarely reached out to Republicans in Congress instead refering to them as "enemies".

On what planet is this "negotiating"?

Obama negotiating ???? With who, on what, when ??

See my post #2.3....yeah, he's negotiating alright....

And I did answer ....but I'll reword it a little and I'll type very slowly just in case you can read fast....

r e p u b l i c a n s, a r e, d o i n g, w h a t, t h e y, w e r e, v o t e d, i n, t o, do ....

The only thing Obama and Reid negotiated on was with holdout Democrat Senators and how many hundreds of millions it would cost for their YES votes on ObamaCare....

JC, that's exactly what I was going to say about the Wi. Gov,. He is nothing but a lackey for the Koch Bros. empire. Pure and simple.

't

looks like the lazy's are waking up, personally i'll go with this, just because...

you wonder why ALL the republicans are going on this with the governor? same reason why the rest of the Republicans across the board are, because the states are broke!

you want to make a point, make it, ill make 1 right here and right now! you show me how many non union shops shipped their jobs out of the US, and give me that number with the union jobs that did as well. you can't, you wont because it isnt there! you cant get it thru your thick little heads what is going on can you? buisness under the union thumb is leaving, (what hasnt left already) because it cant afford the unions mandatory demands on pensions, and raises. when a company says "hey, were going broke" little azzes hit the sidewalk on a strike, and the next thing you know.... jobs gone! but you dont get it do ya?

not to mention it's kind of hard for the government to outsource its jobs to Mexico. we already bring Mexicans across the border, and the federal government pays the employer for 1/2 their wages to keep people out of the unions. but you dont get it do ya? behind the scenes the unions are busting small business just to keep alive, and dont say they dont!!! cause ive heard it from their own mouths! now that most the private sector is gone, most of the production... gone...whats left? ya, the last straw breaking the people of this nations back, the government, and they are keeping the grip of death on it, by selling its members out, and they still support them!? are you guys insane???????

Well, irony is certainly alive and well, isn't it?

States are having budget troubles because we're still getting through the worst recession in 80 years, so tax revenues suck.

Of course, the state budget isn't what this is about, obviously, since the unions offered to give the Governor all the money he was looking for. Since he refused their offer, it is safe to assume that the state being "broke" isn't really his issue.

Oh, and, then there's the fact that this same guy, in his last job as Milwaukee County Executive pulled exactly the same @!$%#: He ginned of a budget "crisis" and assumed the power to bust the security union, firing those workers and hiring a private contractor.

And, now that arbitration is complete, Milwaukee County gets to pay the arbitration fees, is ordered to hire back the union guards and pay them all their back pay, and, of course, settle up with the private contractor. IOW, they will be paying more than twice as much for security for that period because Walker wanted to bust a union.

So, Walker is most likely setting up the state for more of the same; arbitration at the least, more likely a great deal of court. He still hasn't learned the lesson that you can't just gin up an excuse to declare yourself dictator in order to screw workers.

What fascinates me is just how many of you little rightwingnut dittoheads who call yourselves Americans are having such a problem with the concept of not screwing workers. One might get the idea that you're not Americans at all.

Based on the ill-informed posts in this blog, one is forced to realize that our school system has failed.

Few posters seem to know the facts of the subject at hand: the state is broke and can't pay for the benefits that have been extorted out of them by the unions.

Neither do they seem to know that extortion is a criminal act in every scenario but with unions.

Government workers aren't entitled to better benefits and pay than what the private sector receives for the same type of job especially when the private sector has to pay for those government workers with their taxes.

Wow, more irony! It just seeps out of the woodwork!

Government workers are entitled to exactly the compensation that was agreed to by legal contract. Unless, of course, you are reserving the right for the state to renege on its signed contracts whenever they want to. This particular contract being with taxpayers, which each and every one of the state employees are.

Even at that, the union has already agreed to forgo some of their compensation.

So, who is blackmailing whom here, exactly? The union who is kicking some of their pay back, or the Governor who is threatening to lay them off if he doesn't get to keep them from ever bargaining collectively again?

Wanna talk about the facts, do you?

LMAO!

JC, why is the Democrats stubborn refusal to show up in the senate chambers and do their job good and the republicans showing up in the senate chambers doing their job bad? It's a pissing match right now- both sides are doing the exact same thing but you only see it as evil when it comes from the right. Of course the democrats are doing it for personal gain (they lose a hell of a lot of campaign contributions when public sector union members are no longer forced to pay dues) at the cost of the tax payers and the republicans are doing so for the good of the state. Don't worry, I don't expect you to agree, I am just curious why literal obstructionism at the hands of the democrats is good but figurative obstructionism from the republicans, showing up in chambers, doing the job their constituents elected them to do in voting no, was bad.

you want to talk facts? fact is, ok they agree to the cuts in pay and so on, then next time the contract rolls around, its pay or i strike. oooooo wait a second? that would shut down the government until it gives into their demands, nah, that sh!t dont fly with me.and dont say im full of it because its been done before!! the union has NO buisness making a profit off the taxpaer dime period! especially when it comes to public service. do i think that should fall in line with police and so on, no, because due to the nature of their positions, yes, they should have something, and untill something else comes along, i say fine, stick with it.

you want to talk facts? show me! i asked how many times, and drools and scabs switch the subject, show me how many NON UNION jobs went to Mexico, and over seas.... been waiting for months on the answer to this...

"The state is broke, the state is broke, the state is broke ..."

No sh*t. That's why the union is gladly supporting the financial applications of the bill.

Explain how retaining the right to collectively bargain contracts somehow blows the state budget fiscal health out of the water.

Someone. Anyone?

It likely means we are right back here next year, when insurance costs go up again and they worker contribution needs to go up again like it does in private businesses

Right -- THAT makes sense. Let's back track, hm?

The unions are supporting the fiscal measures of the bill. They are in support of the fiscal responsibility of the state.

Why would that change if a need was demonstrated next year? Or the year after? Or the year after?

In short, the whole "well they'll just do it again next year" argument is empty.

They'll just undo the "fiscal responsibility" when they can purchase enough votes for a spineless governor.

You think agreeing to a TEMPORARY tiny reduction in benefits to avoid looking like a greedy, a**hole means anything when you know you will replace it with a large increase in a couple of years?

Tinfoil hat for pjam09 ...

"Gladly" accepted the pension and health care contributions- sure, if you want to call it that. It took 4 days of sick outs by the teachers before they figured out Walker wasn't backing down so maybe they'd have to say they'd agree to the increases. The problem is, there's been no vote. And the way this is set up right now, the legislature would have to vote on the weakened budget bill before the various unions could organize a vote. Since no one has actually put this to the membership and it is ultimately the membership who has final say in the up or down vote, I'm not willing to stake my state's future on whispered promises that it will pass. And a temporary suspension of collective bargaining rights is a short term solution to a long term problem. It doesn't really fix anything, just delays the inevitable to a point where it hurts more.

Of course my inner democrat says this is exactly the goal because 2 years from now they can either attempt to recall Governor Walker or will be starting up the next campaign and can pound it as a talking point more effectively then than can happen if it passes less than 2 months into Walker's term when there's time for relief to be felt and this to become a distant memory at least in terms of the political cycle.

He has until this Friday to make a deal, after that they lose their opportunity to refinance their debt. He should not play games with the state's future. Collective bargaining is a right that you should not try to mess with.

what i am wondering is how many of you actually read the bill? they still have barganing rights, not as much room to hold the state hostage as they used to, but that isnt the the reason the unions are up in arms, its the opt out part of the bill.

most people against this just dont see the union was trying to throw them under the train, while claiming to save them. if walker would have said fine, i'll lay off 1,500 right this minute, and another 1,500 next week, and more after that till the budget lines are met, cutting wages, pensions the whole ball of wax, JUST for this bill not to pass, they would have agreed.

people dont understand in the bill there's the opt out option. they are willing to see you out on the street, rather than have someone opt out. they would rather see you dead on the corner, rather than trust you to make a check out to them for dues, or opt out of being in the union altogether, but people dont want to face that fact, because "the union is our freind" brainwashing. news flash folks! the only friend of the union is the $ you send them.

but you see here :http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/local/fox_cities/local-governments-preparing-for-state-aid-cuts

the mayor in my town is getting ready, if the bill passes or not, they worked around it, so everyone is happy.... all that is but the guy who lost his seat as Mayor last year, he was one of the very very very few unhappy with this move.

Sorry, I have a hard time accusing someone who's in his office doing his job every day of playing games while others are hotel hopping in another state to prevent that job from being done. It's the chicken@!$%#e democrats who are playing games with my state's future.

Collective bargaining is not a right, it is a privilege granted by law and when laws no longer work for the benefit of society we change them.

ooops wrong link here is the correct one.

http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/special-gillett-council-meeting

the Mayor of Gillett, Mr.Miller, isnt a republican, or democrat, he is listed as an independant. Actually is doing a good job at keeping the city's head above water since elected, and i will vote for him again next election. the last guy was running the town into the ground for all it was worth, and this guy has made a positive diference in the community.

Tell me, Megalodon ... when was the last time the teacher's union held the state of WI "hostage?"

Surely there is a precidence for this fear mongering?

Anyone? WI shut down because of those loathesome unionized teachers?

Hello?

YouJustSaidWhat

Tell me, Megalodon ... when was the last time the teacher's union held the state of WI "hostage?"

well it doesnt have to be wisconsin, all tho there a lot of cases, not just in wisconsin...

Starting on June 8, 2007, the teachers of the Quincy Public Schools began to strike because of pay cuts and health benefit cuts. Paul Phillips led the strike and represented the strikers on the local television station, QATV. The strike ended after nearly a week of deadlock, when the courts ruled the strike to be illegal. The teachers were told by court officials that they would be fined $150,000 dollars per day, if they didn't stop immediately.

During the 1972-1974 school years, teachers belonging to the Hortonville Education Association went on strike against the Hortonville School District. Strikes by teachers were illegal under state law. The strike received national attention as the 84 striking teachers were replaced by strikebreakers and classes resumed. Teachers from around the state joined the picket lines.

The Hayward teachers strike took place in April 2007 when teachers of the Hayward Unified School District in Hayward, California went on strike. The teachers demanded a raise of 16.84%, equal to the raise district administrators had given themselves in the summer of 2006.

The strike commenced on 5 April 2007, with over 1,300 teachers on the picket line, affecting 38 schools and over 20,000 students. After a week of the teachers' strike, Dr. Dale Vigil, the district superintendent, looked to file an injunction against the Hayward Education Association (HEA), to force the teachers back in the classroom. HEA President Kathleen Crummey firmly held her position as the leader during the strike, even claiming that she would rather serve jail time if a court order is issued.

actually i can be at this till saturday or sunday doing it full time, by all means do a search, i used just wiki, and got over 500 pages, of various teacher strikes, all union in various parts of the world, most i have seen so far have been in the US, and the UK. however it isnt just location, its the fact it happens, and can happen at any point of time, when there is a union involved. i wont go as far to sall of these were without warrant, still, to hold a city, state, or buisness hostage is unacceptable in most of these cases. look at when the big 3's had its members go on strike, what happened after wards? they shipped work out to mexico, coincidence? no, it was to keep the value of what was left of American made cars down. but hey, thats just 2 areas, i didnt type in union strikes for a total look, but be my guest, look at the facts for yourself.

as well being that this bill isnt JUST about teachers, as you wish to try and spin it, it is about public workers... but tell ya what, give me a few more minutes... i do know of strikes that did shut down public service until the city gave into demands of these terrorists.

here we go.... NYC held hostage... public service unions, and employees

Employees of the New York City Transit Authority assigned to the New York City Subway and in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and the Bronx are members of the Transport Workers Union of America Local 100, with Queens and Staten Island bus personnel represented by various Amalgamated Transit Union locals.

On New Year's Day, in 1966, a 12-day strike was started with the aid of Michael J. "Mike" Quill. This strike started after the union member's contracts had expired, and with large economic demands from the union. After the 1966 New York City transit strike, the Taylor Law was passed making public employee strikes illegal in the state of New York.

Despite the Taylor Law, there was still an 11-day strike in 1980. 34,000 union members struck in order to call for increased wages.

On December 20, 2005, another strike occurred. Workers walked off at 3 a.m. and the NYCTA stopped operating. Later that day, State Supreme Court Justice Theodore Jones warned the transit union that there would be a fine of $1 million for each day the TA is shut down. Also for each day the workers missed during the strike they would be fined two days pay. Ultimately, the Judge fined the union $2.5 million, charged employees two days' wages for every day they were out on strike, and imposed individual fines on the union’s officers. Most significantly, the courts indefinitely suspended the Union’s dues checkoff and refused to restore it for nearly 18 months.

actually as far as unions and its members holding the public sector hostage in some form or another we all know we can go on with that easily the rest of the evening and into the morning, but hey, you want proof i started some of it, and there is tons more out there, i just dont think there is the need when you can look for yourself, but i think your too chicken to do so, because you know i am right. all the way from bus, subway, teachers, airlines, auto makers(altho private), still the list goes on forever, lol.

So you have, what, 7?, examples of teacher strikes in a nation of hundreds of school districts during the last 50 years? Seriously, that's all you got?

You missed the target. The fear-mongering alludeds to the Unions shutting a state down. You provided narrow district and city examples.

In other words: I did my research prior to calling y'all out. I knew any responded would come up empty-handed.

You'd better get back at your Googling, Megalodon. It seems you really do need to do it all day and all night. The burden of evidence still lies upon you, friend.

(Interesting you cited the Haywood. Were they out of line in expecting raises in light of the self-rewarded increases of administration?)

In the 1990s, the 800,000 employees who were furloughed in November and the 260,000 who sat idle in December received a total of about $1 billion in back pay even though they could not report to work, according to a report by the Office of Management and Budget.

(That was a relief to many employees, who were uncertain for weeks about whether or not they would ultimately be paid. Robert Tobias, who served as the president of the National Treasury Employees Union during the shutdown and now teaches at American University, said that his organization and other federal employee groups dispersed tens of thousands of dollars in loans to workers who were unable to pay their bills without receiving their paychecks on time.)

ok, lets start with a nation, take note, in each of these cases it was a democratic shutdown, also who is affected, union workers, who pays for it? the taxpayers. that includes you.

The Pullman Strike was a nationwide conflict between labor unions and railroads that occurred in the United States in 1894. The conflict began in the town of Pullman, Illinois on May 11 when approximately 3,000 employees of the Pullman Palace Car Company began a wildcat strike in response to recent reductions in wages, bringing traffic west of Chicago to a halt.^[1] The American Railway Union, the nation's first industry-wide union, led by Eugene V. Debs, subsequently became embroiled in what The New York Times described as "a struggle between the greatest and most important labor organization and the entire railroad capital" that involved some 250,000 workers in 27 states at its peak.

^{http://www.internationalist.org/ilwushutportsmay10803.html}

^{http://maciverinstitute.com/2011/02/wis-teachers-shut-down-schools-threaten-strikes/}

^{http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/special/centennial/march/labor.html}

^{http://www.isreview.org/issues/55/bigbrown.shtml}

http://books.google.com/books?id=Nm9bGkl8pMwC&pg=PA866&lpg=PA866&dq=union+strikes+in+united+states+that+lead+to+a+shutdown&source=bl&ots=3fT3n5FW0a&sig=aN2RA8pLAgnbNYVgnrFHCdj9Oy0&hl=en&ei=NtxmTbeZG9DdgQfF9fXLCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&sqi=2&ved=0CFAQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=union%20strikes%20in%20united%20states%20that%20lead%20to%20a%20shutdown&f=false

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Building_Trades_Council

http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/06/news/companies/boeing_strike_begins/index.htm

http://articles.sfgate.com/2003-12-18/business/17522417_1_safeway-locations-steve-burd-commercial-workers

this sh!t goes on and on, end result? the unions got their way, and the consumer/taxpayer had to pay more. more for product, more for shipping, more for travel, more, more, more...... and if you notice in each case, it isnt a matter of shutting down, making the employer pay, it made the public pay. if you are too dence to see the relations to this, then maybe you deserve whatever in live the union shacks off of you. as i said before, the union might have helped when it came to labor laws, and safety, but that was it. wages you got, the consumer/ taxpayer took the brunt of, till it couldnt anymore, and in some of those cases, clear in point, the auto and paper industry. then again you say go on, do it all night, but this means your too lazy, or too fearful to do so yourself.

sux when someone else is right doesnt it?

Because the service they provide is a public safety service, you have to have police and fireman around regardless. But I guess common sense isn't issued with the hippie flag waving protests for the lefties.

Walker asked the unions to hold off on the contracts untill he became gov.. Most of the unions, thinking the dems would vote on the contracts before the swearing in said f you.. The lead union negotiator even said, who does this a-- think he is? He isnt even gov yet..

When the dems failed without even trying, which I think they wanted this showdown, Hansen said with a smirk its up to Walker to come to a agreement now.. Fire and police btw were the only ones who said they would wait for Walker to become gov before moving on with their contracts..

Sorry Former, you can't have it both ways, either everyone helps to balance the budget or they don't. This was purely a political move. Had nothing to do with the budget. You still haven't given a reason, "public safety" doesn't fly. You have to have teachers around too! Keep spinning!

Yes your right you have to have teachers but teachers striking pissed off the parents...you don't have mass pandemonium because there isn't any police or fires taking over cities because there are no fireman...give me your address so I can mail you some commonsense.

Actually, the police, fireman, and state trooper unions were the only public sector unions to contribute to Gov Walkers campaign. Coincidence? I highly doubt it. Thankfully, those unions are comprised of the sane type of conservatives that support the rights of working Americans.

Because police and fire are public service jobs. Teachers should not be a public service job. I prefer public or charter schools for my kids , they outperform the public schools and are much more cost effective. Consider this and then maybe you can come up with an intelligent reply but I doubt it :

In the National Assessment of Educational Progress tests administered by the U.S. Department of Education in 2009—the latest year available—only 32 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned a “proficient” rating while another... 2 percent earned an “advanced” rating.
The other 66 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned ratings below “proficient,” including 44 percent who earned a rating of “basic” and 22 percent who earned a rating of “below basic.”

Wisconsin public schools increased their per pupil expenditures from $4,956 per pupil in 1998 to $10,791 per pupil in 2008.
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics inflation calculator the $4,956 Wisconsin spent per pupil in 1998 dollars... equaled $6,546 in 2008 dollars.
That means that from 1998 to 2008, Wisconsin public schools increased their per pupil spending by $4,245 in real terms yet did not add a single point to the reading scores of their eighth graders and still could lift only one-third of their eighth graders to at least a “proficient” level in reading.

Jim you do know why charter schools can't work? They aren't obligated to take poor students by the truck load. All it takes is one student to disrupt the entire class. Then the school board don't allow teachers to effectively deal with the students. Charter schools work right now, but they simply don't work for every student. Until a private company takes over a public school district and turn it around without expelling a lot of students, I think they are just a cheap trick to believe they are better in every way.

God owns the world, because he/her created it.

God says treat your neighbor as yourself.

Republicans believe in God.

Republicans say "Let your bum neighbor starve, if he is too stupid or lazy to work, he doesn't deserve anything".

Seeing as your neighbor is you, you really must hate yourselves, Republicans.

bob frederick..

Sadly I have to say it is our fault that your union friend believes as he does,"It is the people's fault for not being in a union" we have allowed ourselves to be "blackmailed" by the idea of strikes, and so the union worker gets what they want..

I say let the union worker strike, and let us pick up the slack... I cannot see myself fighting a fire, or breaking up a street fight, but let the garbage pile up, like it did in NYC, some years ago.....yes, keep our children home, no matter how difficult, unless we stop being threatened by strikes, we will never get away from the threats..Please someone, perhaps a union member, tell me why they should not have to pay something, or something more, towards their health care..and why should not their pay be held at its present level, why should they not have to contribute a bit more toward their pensions, we are all, country wide, feeling the pressure of the current financial status, why should they not be included..

Unions certainly served a wonderful purpose, and I don't agree that all bargaining should be eliminated, but it is time, union members realize we are all in it together....Wake up!

Mrs. Major, most union employess across the country agree with you. These particular unions in WI have agreed to the financial request of the gov. Yet he still wants to take away their rights to representation. How about a "No Strike Clause" in their contract? I am a member of the IBEW and we have that and always have for as long as I have been a member. The average union employee realizes that we are only as strong as the company, in this case the government, that we work for. Removing the rights of workers is not a financial issue, it is an issue of fair treatment. Remember, it takes two sides to form a contract. The state signed them and agreed to them just like the union did. If they can't afford it, don't sign it.

The state probably could afford those contract when they signed them. But times do change and we have to all adjust. Unions say they represent the worker and are against the "fat cats " in big business. When its these same unions that have larger salaries, benefits and retirement than comparable private sector employees. So who is the fat cat now .

While we in the private sector have to struggle, they get to use tax payer money and not make any sacrifices. hardly fair !

JC, the Republicans ran on, and won, on doing just this action. They are fulfilling their promises to the majority that voted them into office and voted the democrats out. No one has to "hold" anything over them.

The dems will be forced to return and the bill will pass.

Really? The Republicans ran on curtailing the rights of certain unions, and giving the Governor the right to sell off state assets without taking bids?

Seeing as how that's what's in this bill, perhaps you could link me to some campaign info that indicates that this is the platform the Republicans ran on.

JC, Just look for the pamphlets the democrats mailed out and the TV ads the unions took out decrying what the republicans were promising to do if elected. Democrats ran a campaign trying to get the voters to keep them in power because the republicans promised to curtail the unions bargaining power. If Walker and the republicans hadn't made it a campaign issue why did the liberals run all those ads complaining about it during the election cycle?

In other words, you got nothing but mere assertions, just like before.

What a surprise.

The Union cause is like getting Cannabis legalized, it's over so get back to the shovel and start watching something. Actually, Legal Cannabis may have a Better chance than Unions?

I'm thinkin' you might want to back off the Cannabis a tad, 'cause I sure ain't heard no bell yet, Rocky.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Instead of posessing the backbone to get in the ring Dems ran to the media crying.

Its very simple, Why labor needs collective bargaining.

You go for a raise, you feel you deserve it. Boss says no. Everyone in the office, individually ask for a raise. Boss says no. Three employees raise a stink about not getting a raise. Boss fires them. Company has a great year boss gets raise and bonus. Until power of the company is balanced by the power of the labor, the work place is unfair. The government is huge, therefore, has a lot of power. Therefore, Unions are needed for the workplace to make it fair. The power to unionize is needed against large employers, even if the employer is the taxpayer.

If you want campaign finance reform, then do campaign finance reform. If you want to eliminate special interest in the government, move to fully, publicly funded elections. Don't bit** about unions when corporations do it much worse. The government could save a huge costs, if they simply funded projects pay as you go. I give the company 30% of the funds for resources. If they don't do a good job; fire the company, and reopen the bidding for the project. This would save the government a crap load of money, because the biggest waste is allowing a mega corporation, sub contract for government jobs.

You should be the boss. Soon you will figure out that in no way does it work that way. Unions believe everyone is equal despite ones actual worth. Bosses know who is needed and who is not. Bosses will keep the backbones, give them raises, appreciate them. They will however let lazy ding dongs go. Anybody can fill those shoes. If a boss runs everybody off, only hires ding dongs, don't you think that the company will not have a great year? Showing up with a heartbeat doesn't equal a good job. By the way paying as we go, that is what Wisconsin is saying. What governor is doing will save the State a crap load of money.

always back to Bush. Laura - Bush had little to do with fannie mae and what Bush racked up in 8 years is a drop in a drop in the bucket compared to what b.o. saddle us with in his FIRST year. Stop falling for the class warefare propaganda spewed by the left. "Rich" people already pay WAY more then their fair share

Yes your right Laura, the lower and middle class are suffering because the taxes that pay for a majority of these public service jobs comes from property taxes. I am a republican, I am not rich, I struggle to pay my mortgage and work hard every week. Nothing is given to me and the fact that you brand every republican that way is insulting. I can't afford for my taxes to keep going up on my house and I am not going to endorse a corporate income tax on a company that has already shed it's weight to meet the constraints of budgets. I find it funny that you don't even see that everyone is trimming the fat off their budgets...trying to do more with less yet here are the teachers...we want everything to stay as is because it is our right...give me a break...your lucky to have a job.

You are so caught up with hating the Republicans that you can't see the common sense truth. YOU CAN'T PAY FOR PENSIONS IF THE MONEY ISN'T THERE. YOU CAN'T PAY FOR SALARIES IF THE MONEY ISN'T THERE. STOP SPENDING MONEY YOU DO NOT HAVE.

Basically the unions are pissed because the collective bargaining rights are being taken away and the employees are basically going to get a raise per cost of living and if there is a pay raise to be given...it goes to the tax papers...HOLY CRAP...YOU MEAN THE PEOPLE THAT GIVE THEM THEIR PAYCHECK GET TO DECIDE IF THEY GET A RAISE. NO FRIGGEN WAY....what the heck is that state thinking.(sarcasm)

Middle class and poor Americans are the ones PAYING for this crap now, and we say enough is enough. Union people should have the same rights and beni's as the rest of us. They haven't worked as hard for years so they have ZERO room to bitch!

Laura, the top 5 percent of wage earners pay over 40% of all taxes. Is that not their fair share. What about obama's healthcare bill. It has a penalty tax in it of hundreds of dollars. If you have a cadillac healthcare plan, you pay a tax on anything over $8,000. That would take in most plans. How is this looking out for the middle class? The dems want to pass a cap and trade bill that would increase your costs for energy by thousands. How is that looking out for the middle class and poor? The dems are for the unions, pure and simple. The do not give a crap about the poor and the middle class. The Wisconsin governor and legislatures in the past have paid off the unions by giving them the huge pension, retirements, and benefits that can not be paid for. You liberals all talk about raising taxes. That is your answer for everything, raise taxes on the wealthy. How would any of you like to pay over 50% of your wages in income taxes? Work for 6 months or more out of each year for free? Bottom line is that the spending for the unions needs to be cut. I work for a union and about all it got me was nothing! They protect the workers who should be fired. The lazy. If you are a good worker in most jobs, you have security. Yes, there are exceptions.

the biggest lie the devil pulled off was to make you think he dosent exist - the greatest lie the left pulled off was to make you think they stand for the middle class

Laura Who do you think provides more jobs, the poor, the middle class, or the rich, get a life bozo!!!

This is a continuation of the myth about the rich. Actually not only do the rich pay most of the income taxes in America; but 47% of low income pay NO INCOME TAX watsoever, in addition, after not paying taxes they get a government check because of various tax credits.

Get your facts straight

PC, may I quote you? Haven't updated my email signature in a while and that was absolutely SPECTACULAR

Suzy-

You might want to correct the spelling before you adopt this. Just sayin.

Stand strong republicans, and keep remembering the children who have to pay for all this debt.

parasites unite!

Stand Strong Patriots of George Washington and John Adams and Abe Lincoln...Stand strong...defend the US from total collapse by these greedy workers who would suck the economy till it's all gone then suck some more.....Keep up the good work Governor Walker....Your a Great American!

And to all you liberal Americans whinning and complainning remember another great American said these words," Ask NOT what your country can do for you, but rather ask what YOU can do for your country."..oh thats right he was a Democrat.....that was in the days when Democrats were also true blue Americans and had not been hijacked by the commies.

I work a part time job in the public sector. I've held the job since 1993 and through 2005, my salary stayed the same. No raises, no COLA. No benefits, no health care, nothing. Then we voted in a union and I'm getting step increases and I'm able to join the health care plan and the 401K plan. That's why the union matters.

If you get rid of the union & collective bargaining, get ready to get rid of your vacations, your sick time, your health care (employers won't allow you to buy into a plan or contribute) and employers will not co-contribute to your 401K plan.

If you're ready to take those kinds of hits, then continue to kill the union.

Why should you get full-time benefits for only working part time?

Stand strong go Republicans.

From Chicago (it figures), I don't get paid sick days and my employer doesn't contribute to my 401K right now. I also don't need some idiot collecting money from me every month so I can collect benefits I am not eligible for. I work for what I have and I don't see why YOU get full time benefits for working part time. And I am so sick & tired of paying for people who do.

OoOooO look out Rahm it in is now in Charge!

jollyoldsoul1....Chicago is beyond broke, deeply in debt, has all those financial timebombs ticking away.....Rahm wanted that job so bad.....now lets see what he does with it.... how does he solve their financial crisis......Let's keep an eye open and see if he doesn't apply for one of his buddy Barry's high-speed trains...and watch where the money actually goes......

Chicago, the mistrust between management and union leadership has caused more harm than good. I work in an office, no union for us, yet we have a really good 401K match plan, decent health care (80% picked up by the company, even for family coverage), paid vacation and sick time and a pretty attractive bonus structure- not because we have a union demanding these things for us but because the folks that run the firm understand they need to attract good people to work here in order to have a successful business. The manufacturing jobs I worked back in the college days were the same way- there were no unions but employees were treated reasonably and respectfully for their efforts. Most of my friends who've worked in union shops have come away with very different experiences. I think it's a lot more about perception than it is about reality.

nika4 - There is only party standing in Wisconsin, the same one that has been standing up for America against B.O.'s aganda the past 2 years.

You only point out how ridiculous the benefits are for these positions compared to the private sector. Time to end this craziness, and deflate the power these corrupt union leaders have aquired over the years.

Job security? Tell it to those 1500 air traffic controllers the great Ronald Reagan FIRED. That is exactly what needs to happen here. Get back to work or your GONE!

we're not jealous of it - we're tired of footing the bill for it

yeh, who cares if the traffic controllers are overworked and a few planes crash! Yeh, who cares if we then hire some unqualified people..........hell, the planes are going to crash anyway. These passengers should know better than to trust the pilot and the control tower! One thing I'm sure of, I would never work for James Jay, a man who really knows how to take care of his employees, and sees them as people, rather than just a way for him to make more money.

right frag - lets maintain the "high" standards set by the teachers union or the uaw

What's even more funny is that there ARE Republicans in that union. They have to pay the Union, and have no say when their funds are going to Democratic candidates, instead of proportionally going to some Dems and some Reps. What's worse is that we pay these people who are forced to give money to the unions who pass that money on to the Democratic Party. I don't want to be forced to give money to people whose purpose in life is to take more money from me to give to themselves. I can barely afford to keep my house with the ever rising taxes, none-the-less paying for candidates and issues that I disagree with.

Tamegravity.... what is even more funnier is that person can quit their job and go find another one. You do know that is what you can do. Also "my money" and Union money pays for Reps salaries and health care. I don't want to do that but it happens. Also Unions taxes paid for Bush's tax cuts for the rich. Do you think that Unions want to that. Hell no. It happens okay

james jay,the ATC's supported the "Jipper" and broke their contract on an illegal wild cat strike which gave the "Jipper" authority to fire them. This is not the same in any way, shape, or form. Like all mis informed right wing robots the "jipper"was a tax and spend liar., and illegally funded a covert war and when caught dead to rights lied about it also. He also illegally negotiated with a terrorist state and lied about that too. Tricky DICK was criminal as was the"jipper" and gw. All criminals, all LIARS and all republicans.

Frag, 90% of the people hired were Former Military controllers out of work since the union controlled that particular area. My room mate MOS as Observer/AT control and he had been working at a equip. rental place..... Until he got the call from Uncle Ronnie. a few weeks of retraining and boom high paying job. These were military trained people and good at what they do. Poor union guys, just asked for too much.

jolly, So that means Ronnie just wanted to save some money? Don't make me laugh. Is that why he recommisioned the Missouri, to save money? Ronnie was a union buster, it was his political ideology. He wanted to privitize everything, that's why he emptied the state mental hospitals and gave all those "unterlinge" citizens a one way bus ticket and a shopping cart. There were NO homeless people in SF before Ronnie, only after. That was something we used to see on television, in India. The traffic controllers didn't ask for too much, they just asked the wrong guy! That was the start of the class war that is now reaching a peak.

Why don't we get together and ask the people who maxed out the credit card, to now pay the bill. Why doesn't George Bush put at least 100 million of his personal wealth into the treasury to pay for his Iraqi mistake. Why don't we ask the people who MADE MONEY on the war to pay a "war profit tax"!

**wiping tears away**

The Great Ronnie Reagan?

HAHAHAHAHAHA ...

ATC is nothing like being a teacher. Don't need 6 years of college. Don't need 30k to pay back the student loans, either. Sure you could fire the teachers, but then they would have to restart the school year in June. It would also put the students back almost a year.

For all those, which say the teachers don't need a union. Do you have a college degree? Are you willing to quit your job, and become a teacher, because the great state of Wisconsin needs you to be a teacher? Are you willing to work for 40k and 10k in benefits, when your done with your college courses to be a teacher, and never get a raise above inflation?

A - a college degree is not really that unique

B - is what your degree field in demand

C - some folks would jump at 40k and 10k in benefits that 50k a year

D - all teachers are not paid equally - why? they can get a job somewhere else with their degree field. creating a shortage in that teaching field.

F- Inflation and demand is the only reason that people get raises.

What about the rights of people that are not in the unions? We have rights, also. We have the right to question, cut, reduce, get rid of any pay, benefits, and retirement for government workers, who work of us, the taxpayers. The democrats and liberals will not be happy until they bankrupt the local governments, state governments, and this country. You all think that money grows on trees or better yet, you can take money from the wealthy, who most have earned it. Liberals can not accept the fact that we are all running out of money or have run out of money in the government. The rest of us are taking hits on raises, pensions, benefits, etc. Government workers need to take the same hit. I truly hope every one of these teachers that are sacrificing their students educations and are calling in sick, are caught on camera and fired. Every single one of them. I hope the doctors that are handing out fraudulent sick notes are caught, disbarred, and prosecuted to the fullest. I have no problem if the teachers want to protest on weekends, at night, or use their vacations to protest. I have a problem with any one and anywhere that would use sick time for something like this. A prime example of how unions are working. The teachers have proven that they are looking out for themselves and not he welfare of the students.

Mark Montgomery...(#13).......What are you going to do when your new Democrat Governor Cuomo starts doing similar things......You think he is going to let NY State go bankrupt on his watch.....who is he going to blame....Democrat Gov. Paterson , or Gov. " I never met a high priced hooker I didn't like" Spitzer...(figures he would end up with his own program on CNN)....

Why in the hell did CNN put Spitzer on the payroll? Don't they realize how much credibility they lost ??

Because Spitzer knows where lots of corporate 'bodies are buried'.

Shamwoah. The previous governor and legislature used over $2 billion in the government stimulus to accomplish this. Read the article in the shortcut.

http://www.wpri.org/Reports/Volume23/Vol23No1/Vol23No1.html

Don't boast about the surplus, until you know all the facts. You previous democrats in the state mortgaged Wisconsins and other states future. Now the chickens are coming home to roost. Whether you or any other liberal likes it, you bankrupted and mortgaged the future of everyone. You need to pay the price. You can only take so much money from the wealthy. The states can not afford to pay for these benefits and they were only given to placate the unions and buy them and their votes. Now you are paying the price. People need to wake up and understand what the democrats have done and are doing to this country. obama and the rest of the dems need to be held accountable for their spending and how it is bankrupting our country.

The blame for who is bankrupting the country surely can be spread around, however the idea to borrow and spend rests squarely with the republicans starting with the Regan administration as a tactic to saddle the dems with the cleanup then blame it on the unions. The problem with Walker is that he believes his own right wing propaganda.

Shamwoah!...(#14)....Here we go again...."surplus"...Take a look:

The Truth-O-Meter says you and that guy Rachel Maddow are wrong.

http://politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/18/rachel-maddow/rachel-maddow-says-wisconsin-track-have-budget-sur/

It's the "newmath" Mike.

You 100% correct about Glass-Steagall. If the Commodities Modernization Act, (which reapealed parts of Glass-Steagall) is allowed to stand, there is a 100% guarantee that we will have another DEPRESSION, just like 1929, and the George Bush Depression that we are now comming out of.

right frag - democrats and unions NEVER sully their hands with money

frag... they run because they are hypocrites. Once they get into. Look at Mrs. Michele Bachman, the Rep from Minn. She has gotten farm money and medical money from the Gov't and yet talks about Gov't like it is evil. I bet that she has turn down anything that the Gov't gives her. She is one of the biggest liars and hypocrites in Congress and it is like her supporters either don't know her history of getting Gov't aid or really don't understand.

Since liberals are "peace loving hippies"...why did they put a man in the White house who continues this worthless war???????...Oh thats right, he LIED!!!!!!!!!

lifesgood43, you forgot BAT S#!T CRAZY.

PC/NOT

right frag - democrats and unions NEVER sully their hands with money

That's not exactly a refudation.

"Since Republicans hate government and want to privitize everything, why do they run for office?"

If something is broken you usually have to get involved with it to fix it. I guess if you're lazy you probably just let it get worse "hoping" someone else will fix it.

Why do Dems run for an office they intentionally flee from when it comes time to do the job?

Because it is the only option they have against this fascist dictator that may have been elected by the people, but has now appointed himself king.

pjam... wow. So you think that someone that hate something should work for that company. You are not making any sense. Also tell me how many Reps have given up Gov't money and benefits. Being in Congress is the easy job in America. Nothing they do is hard.

Also why did the Reps filibuster over 160 bills in Wash, DC. You do know that Reps to walked out on their jobs but they did it a different way.

My name is earl-3091752

Because it is the only option they have against this fascist dictator that may have been elected by the people, but has now appointed himself king.

See the part you are failing to understand, which you so kindly put in the above quote.. ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE. To Quote Obama.. Elections have conquences.. They elected him to fix the budget, you know that 3.9 billion shortfall.....

• lifeisgood43

lso why did the Reps filibuster over 160 bills in Wash, DC. You do know that Reps to walked out on their jobs but they did it a different way.

Republicans followed the rules of Congress and followed the Democratic Process we have in our country. The Dems ran out on their jobs like two year olds running into a corner because they lost their blankie and didnt get their way.

IF you dont see the difference, then sadly there is little hope for you.

At what point will someone figure out that union members - both public and private (coal miners, auto workers, teachers, fire, poice construction workers, electricians) - are also tax payers and pay thier fair share of taxes? If unions are such a bad idea, then why are Wal-mart workers trying to unionize?

How much of this political fight has to do with the fact that the US Supreme Court has ruled that corporations can be treated like individuals for the sake of political contributions. That ruling applies to unions as well. But if the unions are broken adn effectively silenced as a political force, then only the rich and corporations will have money to back political candidates. If this lessens the choices in political candidates, philosphy and political discourse in this country, then we are all in trouble.

We need to be able to have opposing opinons - even those with which we may not agree - for the sake of intelligent conversation and the chance to share ideas. It is sometimes possible that two different opinions can be brought together to create something better - like the Great Compromise that created the bi-cameral legislative system in the US Constitution.

There's a name for countries that have only one option in political opinions. Wait - it'll come to me. . .

The Unions are not the problem. Even states with no unions have economic problems. And other states with unions don't have problems. The problems we have were caused by republicans/conservatives/teabaggers who are stunningly dishonest to the core in blaming anyone and everyone but themselves.

Workers need the ability to strike to prevent ignorant, gullible, political patsys from driving them into the poorhouse as they are attempting in states where people foolishly believed that republicans were competent, even after the 8 year debacle of republican rule.

Unions did not cause our economic problems REPUBLICANS DID.

"If unions are such a bad idea, then why are Wal-mart workers trying to unionize?"

So they can avoid being fired for being incompetant and lazy, and because they want more MONEY without working to earn it.

Why are yo against fair pay and benefits for workers. Do you honestly believe that the great and wonderful corporations of the united states will pay everyone a great wage and offer wonderful benefits? If that were the casethen why would companies keep going off shore? Why wouldn't these great bastions of freedom be building thier call centers and manufacturing plants in parts of america that are depressed and have high unemployment rates? It is all about greed... Wake up pinhead, Hitler started with the unions

pjam.... so you think that all of those Union cops that have died on their Union jobs are lazy. You think those people firefighters and cops who died in 9/11 are lazy. See while people were running out of those towers, those hard working people were running into the towers.

As always, there are government jobs that just aren't duplicated in the private sector. In a great many cases, that's precisely why they're government jobs in the first place. That makes it extremely difficult to calculate equivalent compensation, and it has for a very long time.

What are the skill sets and education requirements to be an effective Highway Patrol officer, and what job in the private sector would you consider to be equivalent, for instance?

There are no government jobs that cannot be duplicated in the private sector. In fact doing so would take a load off of the taxpayers.

FastZ, really?

You would have the police as a private industry? Privatized education? Social Services? Environmental Protection? Imagine a social services worker not being able to take a child from an abusive home, because the child could not pay for the private service.

Could governement services be run more efficiently? Yes! But put them in the private sector and expect them to be run better? No!

"Total compensation in the public sector should equal the private sector for the same skill and hours worked, no more no less."

Then this should happen in good economic times also, not just in difficult ones. What many posters here forget is that public sector workers' wages lag way way behind private sector wages in good economic times.

and if that wernt a big enough kick in the ass - while still owing over 200 billion to the taxpayers for the bailout - the union is giving themselves BONUSES this year!!!!

simpleton and pc/nut both of your post have nothing to do with this story and pc yours is absolute lunatic BS.

jdaniels... You hate it... because it is true...

ok jd - Ill bite - correct all the statments Ive made that are untrue. Im big enough to stand corrected

And what you don't want to see is that the union of today... is not that union of our fathers... they are greedy and power hungry...

None of these nice things came from PUBLIC SERVICE unions, they came from industrial unions. Public unions were not permitted until the 1960's and later.

As Dave pointed out , these changes have come from the private sector unions and not government unions.

Unions in and by themselves are not necessarily "bad" as long as they are in the private sector and a contract is between a company and its employees.

When it comes to government and tax payer money, I don`t want my union dues to go to the democratic party. Without the Unions - the democratic party will cease to exist . That is why the democrat representatives are running scared.

They have another thing coming though , while the rest of us sacrifice this union fat cat employees are living on large checks and benefits. Well there are more of us in the private sector. Justice will be served.

Public unions came about because those who work for government sectors usually work under the administration of those who were elected or appointed by those who were elected and may have absolutely NO knowledge of those sectors. Those who work for government sectors should not be subject to the whims and politics of those elected and appointed officials (every 4 years or so) who could fire them without cause. Continuity of service is what the taxpayers deserve, and without public unions, that would not happen.

Unions never will stop that, the Law prevents that. Unions have absolutely nothing to do with Protecting your job.

amen!

blah blah blah ...

You forgot to mention the union greed that takes up the rest of his 40% profit and saddles the companies with retirement plans at age 50. Not to mention they save a job for someone who can't hold onto one for themselves. I've seen unions save the jobs of drunks, drug addicts and criminals that should have been out on the streets. I have no use for unions at all. They are in the business of taking money from those that earn it (business) and give to the ones that rarely earn it anymore. The day of unions are coming to a close and more power to the people that do it.

Right on hammerd. Its no coincidence that as unions were busted, and as membership went down, the economy tanked and the division of wealth went through the roof. The fact that public workers earn a good deal less than their private counterparts ( ) underlines the need for union advocacy on their behalf.

Excepting for corporations and wealthy individuals, of course. Hand-outs for those two groups are right on track, even if we have to borrow money and destroy what little remains of the middle class to keep them going.

IIRC, it was only a week or two ago that this very same Governor passed out a nice round of hand-outs to corporations in his state.

JC..

As I recall BO has handed Trillions of our greatgrandkids tax dollars to banks when he first got in office...said it would"save the economy".....Gee what happened to that concept???????

JC. The US has the second to highest tax rate in the world. Soon, Japan will be lowering theirs. We will be the highest. You can not complain about how these corporations are getting off and not paying. When will you and your liberal friends realize that you high corporate taxes, rules, laws, and regulations is what forced all these businesses overseas? When will you liberals realize that it is not ok to take 50 to 60% of what people earn? Would you liberals like to work for 6 months or more out of the year for free? Maybe it would be nice if you just worked, instead of taking money from people who work.

Uh, beanne, I'm perfectly aware of the Federal generosity when it comes to the wealthy and corporations.

Now, do you have anything to say about what I posted, or do you just post anti-Obama rants wherever you can find to post them?

Mark, your information is so incorrect, I can only imagine that it came straight from the little voice in your AM radio. There are only three countries in the world with lower over-all taxes than the US and two thirds of the corporations in Wisconsin don't pay any corporate income tax at all.

These are simple, knowable, numerical facts. Mega-Dittos.

Good Morning Mark, Corporations are usually citizens of the world, so to speak and pay their taxes, if they pay where they are domiciled. Since you clearly understand the role of profit in all this why are you unable to recognize that jobs move for reasons other than taxes ? It is without question wrong to take 50 or 60% as a tax rate. It is also wrong to manipulate things in such a way as to cause working people to be unable to better themselves no matter how hard they work. Let me ask you, do you want to work for 10 months out of the year to pay the cost of housing, health care, and energy ? No groceries, no car, no retirement savings, no life insurance etc. ? Many of Americas workers are in this spot and that old boy is part of why we have a problem. They do not have money to spend. The other two months ? 6 weeks of that are taxes. Might even be the balance depending on where you live. As for going to work, I have heard enough from the folks who think that everyone who does not conform to your world view is lazy. Horsefeathers ! I have worked hard all my life. I will all but guarantee you that I have worked more hours in my 40+ years of working than you have. I will have to continue to do that as the last couple of years have not been great. I will get to work in the world you and yours are building. A world without health care, social security, pensions plans of any sort, lower wages, eroding already 2nd rate public education, continued war gated communities and the list goes on.

Very, very well put Jack.

that also includes all tax breaks for business

Where the heck does this 50-60% tax rate come from? Ignoring the fact that the richest of the rich have the most tax breaks:

My wife and I are just barely in the second to the top tax bracket, so we pay 33%, roughly $66,000 in income tax, still leaving us a generous $133,000/yr to live on.

Now imagine someone making $1,000,000 pays $350,000 in taxs, leaving them $650,000 to live on. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't really complain about only living on $650,000?

The rich do pay higher taxes (but have many more tax breaks), and I really don't forsee that interfering with their lavish life style anytime soon.

Personal income taxes in the USA run between 15-35%. There are many more countries that have higher taxes. The USA is not even close tothe highest in personal income tax. AND most other countries have a VAT (value added tax), similar to a sales tax that runs between 10-25%--that's in additon to their income tax. So some countries, like Denmark, have personal income taxes between 38-59%, AND they have a VAT of 25%. Our corporate tax rate is high, but we also give corporations many tax write-offs.

I'm not recommending that kind of tax for the USA, but don't for a minute think we have a high personal income tax. It is simply not true.

Linda,

Then add 10.25 percent state income tax, 9.25% Sales tax. Some property taxes, a excise taxes, gasoline taxes and it's easy to see where those with anything going on are paying well in excess of 50% in total taxes.

Many tax payers are tapped out.

You simply cannot get much more out of them. What we have is a spending problem and its continuing to accelerate. Most in this country now see this. These sort of actions have started to sweep the nation and we'll see much more of it over the next couple of years.

Change is coming, embrace it. Don't be one of those who advocates continuing to sell our children's future to satiate your own greed.

Did you know that only 50% of the U.S. population pays tax. If we could force everyone to pay their part, we could decrease taxes to a low low 10% to 15% across the board

So which is it? Taxpayers either pay too much in taxes when you add them all together and are tapped out, or pay no taxes at all. You can't have it both ways. At least spin it consistently.....