I hope Wisconsin goes on a recall spree the likes of which Republicans have never seen. There are three Republicans with high likelihood of recall (barely won), eight eligible for recall and Walker is eligible for recall next January.

Cannot compromise? with whom? Am I missing something here. There has been a lot of time for discussions - in the capitol and not by email across the border. I am not a fan of stripping away the "rights" that were previously voted for the union members. However, the democrats ruined their chances.

I notice in the press that there are comments across Wisconsin about an uprising created by the Governor's move to cut the budget. I agree 100%. It is happening in California and other states also. The uprising is to kill the excessive spending. The goal - to not spend more than the government agency brings in. The change is growing.

So to get it passed, they had to change how it is categorized and admit it wasn't financial after all. Republicans are interested in advancing their social views period. This was never about the budget.

if you can't compromise change the rules.

Is that straight from the Democrat play-book?

I hope they don't read the legislation until after they pass it!

That's odd, Gov. Walker insisted that he was just trying to fund the Wisconsin deficit (caused by his own exorbitant tax cuts to businesses).

Alas, I know that when the mouths of the Tea Party or the Party of No are moving, lies are being propagated and the welfare of the majority is being blatantly undermined.

Sounds like the basis for a lawsuit

Jemma77 said: "I hope Wisconsin goes on a recall spree the likes of which Republicans have never seen. There are three Republicans with high likelihood of recall (barely won), eight eligible for recall and Walker is eligible for recall next January. "

AMEN I sure hope that the petitions are printed & distributed by the weekend so that by next week the process to remove these senators and representatives (who also had to pass ths crap) from office can begin... and once that occurs, impeachment proceedings can start against Walker... and WI can start the process of cleaning up this mess.

...and filibustering by running away to another state to obstruct legislation is a respectable political tactic.... lol!

The Republicans were liars throughout the entire negotiations. Time for the recalls to start. Recall the BIGGEST LIAR of them all WALKER !!! People of WI don't forget to vote in 2012 and PLEASE do a better job than you did in 2010. TIME FOR ALL UNIONS TO UNITE AND SHUT THE STATE OF WI DOWN !!! IT WAS ALWAYS ABOUT UNION BUSTING.... WALKER IS A LIAR... It was not about the budget. Liar, liar... go report to the KOCH boys... they OWN your soul.. LIAR

Occam, the dems already said they would agree to the financial concessions in the bill, they just wanted the language that does not have anything to do with the budget removed from the bill. Walker himself has said he is unwilling to compromise on the bill, its all or nothing. The spirit of compromise is that two parties in disagreement agree to portions of the subject of disagreement. In this case, dems disagreed with higher contributions,and reduced bargaining rights, a repub measure. The dems, in the spirit of cooperation, conceeded to passing the higher contributions, but not the reduced bargaining rights. It is now to the republicans to either agree or counter-offer, not outright refuse all bargaining to reach a concession.

Sure, shut the state down in a show of solidarity. Except, be ready to look at your non-union neighbors who can no longer get the services they need because of your shutdown and explain to them that your collective bargaining rights are much more important than their needs.

witchking,

One more example of a liberal comparing the opposition to hitler. the same claim the left uses to claim the right is so bad.

Well Republicans finally came out and admitted that it wasn't about the budget. It was only about Union Busting. I hope the citizens of Wi recall every representative and senator that participated in this fiasco with Gov. Walker and after he has been in office for one year, Recall that "Bozo Gov." and send his butt packing home to his Koch Masters. He has clearly demostrated to the citizens of Wi that he cares only about his agenda and will get it by "Hook or Crook". I hope the citizens use the Hook on his crooked butt.

Compromising with the minority which lost the election was NOT the platform on which these people were elected. Accomplishing budget reform WAS the platform. That campaign promise is now being fulfilled, as the majority of voters determined.

BTW, didn't see any Democrats complaining back when ObamaCare was the issue -- did not see any big Democrat commitment to compromise back then.

...and filibustering by running away to another state to obstruct legislation is a respectable political tactic.... lol!

....except when republicans do it of course. Like the last 2 years in the Senate.

You don't have to compromise when you have the votes. No matter if the Dems where there or not the bill was getting passed. The Governor campaigned on this issue that the voters voted him in.

I think it is tell tale however that the Unions tried to sell out their members bargaining rights just to keep the automatic dues collection. And the Governor sent compromise emails to the Dems saying they could keep most of the bargaining rights and the Dems refused to compromise.

Funny how you don't see that spin in the news coverage.

It's about time that the Unions get their due! those of you reading these comments, remember that most of these commenters are way off base with their fact and are mostly out of context. Remember the facts, WI voted out the Democrats in the last election, mostly on the platform of budget reform. the newly elected officials are attempting broadbased budget reform and sore loosers are playing politics trying to stir up discontent. Remember this will not be easy for anyone but it must be done.

You have lots of "facts" in your comment. Any proof?

Walker just ppushed through a very RADICAL bill that was NOT what he campaigned on , and not what he talked about in the news.

He is a LIAR!

Let this be a lesson to other states: Do not elect Republican governors.

Wisconsin voters now say if they had known Walker would do this, they would have never voted for him. But he's here now and look what's happened. Beware the Republican that smiles and says he will be different. And remember what Walker did once he was in office.

Countdown to multi-million dollar taxpayer-dollar lawsuits and judges overturning this bill in t-3...2...1...

These idiots are falling into the same trap that Schwarzenegger fell into when he was governor of California. They don't think long-term. They're going to have to end up paying back all the workers with interest when its overturned.

This guy's political career is completely over come January 2012 when the recall is put on ballot. Hope he enjoys it while he lasts. At least he'll get a nice comfy job as a "political consultant" somewhere after the voters fire him.

So to get it passed, they had to change how it is categorized and admit it wasn't financial after all.

You could just as easily argue that the Repubs thought this provision was so vital to their financial agenda that they weren't willing to let the delinquent Democratic senators undermine it.

its funny how now the liberals are crying about the Republicans changing the rules to get a bill passed. Don't remember you crying when the House did the deem and pass thing for the health care reform because they didnt have the votes.... at least in WI the Republicans had enough votes with or without the Dems.

Jolly--like the Majority that voted for Obama. Republicans didn't care it was a majority--they just whined they were outnumbered--lied--scared our poor grandmother to death. But now Walker has a majority?!

It is time to combine states, combine government agencies, have our State legislators ALSO serve as our US legislators--all the governors, state senators, state representatives, mayors, city councils, county officials, township officials, U.S. senators, US representatives, staff, offices, pensions---We CAN NOT AFFORD ANY OF THEM anymore.

Have state polls and ONE person tallies the opinions and votes for the PEOPLE--not the campaign donors and the few thousand that call, email or attend rallies. ALL OF US SHOULD HAVE A SAY.

At the end of the day, Republicans had the people who backed them, the unions pushed their luck with their ridiculous benefits, and they lost. Cry me a river.

Cry me a river, unions thugs were greedy , and they lost. People are tired of footing the bill for these douche bags/

The Governor campaigned on this issue that the voters voted him in.

That is not true.

Republicans have declared war on the middle class. Every single thing they have done is to @!$%# the middle class and make sure their corporate sugar daddies get the preferred treatment. Anybody who defends that crap is either a paid hack or ignorant.

A simple majority is a bad idea. With 2 parties controlling politics, it requires no negotiations.

I've yet to see Republicans think long term. It's the party line or become a Democrat. History has shown single mindedness never works.

Reagan was the one who started sending our jobs over seas. And yet he is revered for what ? Iniating one of the worst policies in American history. If we can build it cheaper else where, then business people can just worry about logistics and sales and not blue collar workers.

That's the California Dream in a nutshell. Be a movie star, life is Grand, we don't have to work hard, just ask Charlie Sheen.

The reality is that people need jobs making what other people buy to maintain an economy. Anyone who believes otherwise or believes politicians is delusional and deserves what they get. Like Unions getting busted.

Just another obstacle to Republicanism. Really hate to bash Unions, but they also need to think about sustainability, not being anti-Republican.

But neither side considers the long term effects of their values. And now we find ourselves in this mess and wonder why.

2 words, laziness and greed. Pure and simple.

Way to go Wisconsin!

Democracy has died today.

They have no MORALS!

They care nothing for the rule of LAW!

This was illegal and now their moral less REPUBLICAN AG will sit and do nothing.

This is the America republicans want for US.

An America were the right wingers can simply ignore the LAW when it pleases them!!

you people in the state of Wisconsin are now slaves and it's spreading to other states too.....this is what happens when you elect elitist republicans and their puppet-master corporations/donors pulling the strings behind the curtains.....better watch out who you vote for in the next election and don't believe a word they say....the republicans eat, and sh*t money, and everybody else be damned....remember the middle class, it's gone now and are the new poor people.....what a sad, sad time for this country....RECALL The Republican & TEA Party = Tax Evading Americans Party

Hooray for the people of Wisconsin. The running scared Democrats will now have to face their constituents when they go back to Madison with their tale between their legs. A great day for the general public and now let's keep it rolling wherever we find government employees bleeding the pockets of the taxpayers. Watch the Capitol crowding thin out when all of the out-of-state union activists have nothing left to shout about.

You mean when you run away and hide the world goes on without you because you voluntarily removed yourself from the situation?

Duh! Winning!

Lets hope the Dems stay hidden anyway, their absence is refreshing.

Finally! Now our local school boards, cities, towns, and counties know what they can work with as they try to balance their budgets. 3.6 billion has to come from somewhere so we can brace ourselves for the whining to begin. At least now maybe we can get rid of some of the over the top things like paying retired teachers 1/3 of their salary plus their pension to just teach 10 days. Must be nice. Wisconsin spoke in November and this is what we requested - get the budgets balanced, don't raid the special funds, and get our state out of the tax hell it is in. While there were some well meaning people at the protests, if you take away the union people who were paid to be there as well as the students that were blackmailed by their TAs to show up or else they had to write papers, there weren't many others left. The majority of the voters in Wisconsin were WORKING so they could pay their taxes. Maybe our missing senators will now come home and try that working thing also.

He wants to see what he can do to bust unions ... well the democratic Senators have set the precedence. Lets see what he does is all state workers DO NOT WORK while they do NOT have the unions. While the state government shuts down, the Democrats can challenge the anti-union laws in the SCOTUS. It will have to go to the regional fed courts first, but freedom of association and the right to gather has just been violated by outlawing unions. Since the union has just been eliminatwed, there are now NO rules like the air traffic controllers had (or any fed worker, who by union contract CAN NOT STRIKE) way back when.

Time to show both government and big business they are only as good as their employees. Tine to add tarriffs to anything imported and time to penalize any American business with more than 25% of their jobs off shore.

This WI governor obviously wants to see this country in a shoot em up revolution. He may get his wish. Facists didnt make it in Italy or Germany ... the definitely will NOT make it here. The Koch brothers need to be prosecuted for treason against the USA and executed accordingly. They are doing more to endanger and undermine the nation of the USA more than Osama Bin laden ever did. They are attempting to ruin millions of peoples lives rather than just 4000 overpaid financial employees.

Wow, I'm not sure people really realize how dangerous this is.

Charlie Sheen thinks he's huge? This is HUGE.

Michael Moore should eat his shorts with his revolution bs.

The governor has a mandate from the people of Wisconsin and he plans to adhere to THEIR plan.

As such, I highly doubt any recall will be effective. You see, the people have to want to recall the governor and so far, it is a TINY VOCAL MINORITY who are having problems with this.

MOST people voted for the Governor.

I venture to guess that this year may make the 1968 riots looks like a back yard 4th of July.

MS-85 - as you and I know, George Carlin was RIGHT ON.

Thanks for the post.

Because I know Carlin is/was right, I've played my cards right.

You guys don't honestly think you can recall the governor who accomplished something for all of the taxpayers in WI? This guy is going to end up president.

You have to be kidding.

this is a direct attack on the workingclass of America

The governor has a mandate from the people of Wisconsin and he plans to adhere to THEIR plan.

Not true. Only 26% of the eligible voters in Wisconsin voted for Walker. He certainly has no mandate, and he will find out the hard way when he is recalled early next year.

No one changed the rules. They simply pulled a non-financial part out of the budget. And this was never a financial issue. This was an issue of how the democrats and the unions have continually corrupted the political process, and how the corruption has cost the state money and destroyed ethics.

If you want to talk about changing the rules, that is democraticity in action. They (democrats) always change the rules when they can't get their way otherwise.

In the long run, this will help to reform the nature of politics in WI to what it should be, and will be to the benefit of all the citizens of that state.

Hopefully this will spread to other states. Shall we start talking about right to work?

Such arrogance from the right.

The next big political fight in Wisconsin is not the threatened Repeals. 8 Democratic and 8 Republican. It will be the referendum to restore Union Bargaining. I am sure it will be on the November ballot. The issue will keep simmering for 9 more months. That will probably not bode well for the Republican's under recall threat.

A general Strike however could probably turn public opinion and would probably not bode well for the Democrats under recall threat.

Get used to following news in Wisconsin...

BUT, I am much more concerned with the Michigan Budget being proposed, that creates the environment where the Governor can declare any Michigan town in a Financial Crisis. Once that is declared the Governor can appoint a receiver for that town and dismiss all elected officials. So much for Representative Government. But it gets better, one version of this bill will allow a Private Company or Corporation to be appointed as the receiver. Just wait for the Public Water System and School System and Prison System to be privatized.

Scary Times

Tom in NH-294381

jelly belly-- you could, if you wanted to indulge in a long bout of intellectual dishonesty!! This was a union busting bill, pure and simple.

I don't think there is anything intellectually dishonest about it. The governor is trying to avert a financial crisis in the state. Among the fiscal problems (and problems is putting it mildly) is the fact that the state is vastly overextended in its obligations to its public employees. The Democrats agreed that this was a problem. The budget bill attempted to deal with this problem in both a remedial way and a preventative way. The remedial measure asks for greater contributions from employees toward their pension/insurance. The preventative measure limits collective bargaining rights to try to avoid the sort of short-sighted labor agreements that got them into the current mess.

I think the public debate about limits on bargaining rights is an important one. It may not be the right way to prevent this sort of problem in the future, and it may itself be shortsighted. But the "intellectually honest" position, in my humble opinion, is to engage the debate rather than hurling rhetoric like "union busting," "tyranny," and calling for a recall.

"Republicans pushed a provision stripping public employees of their collective bargaining rights through the state Senate Wednesday evening after finding a way to bypass the chamber's missing Democrats."

So the Democrats who thought they were 'Oh, so smart' by running out of state and hiding got outsmarted. LOL

Too bad they just kept rejecting the compromises that Walker offered. Now they have to come back with their tails between their legs.

If the good people of Wisconsin don't like the results in a few years, they will have the chance to change it back. Democracy in action.

Walker offered NO compromises, Roy. What he did here was remove all of the issues the unions conceded to.

"State Senate Democratic Minority Leader Mark Miller issued a statement saying," Waaaah, waahhhhh, waaaahhh! Waaaaaahhhhhh!!!"

Minan59...(#1.68)..."Only 26% of the eligible voters in Wisconsin voted for Walker. He certainly has no mandate "

Walker won by the same percentage as Obama did....53-46...so one is a landslide and one is marginal ??? Obama only won with 32.9% of eligible voters..... Is 33% a Mandate ??...Obama sure thinks so.

Republicans also won Majorities in both chambers of the Wisconsin Legislature...

" Elections have consequences", " I won"....Who said that ???

Mike in Delray, could you tell me where you got your facts other then from some Democrat spin zone. I live in Green Bay and support this, it is about time we can hire and fire according to performance. And if you have such a problem with this then why don't you call Obama and ask him why he refuses to let the federal employees have a union. He is nothing but a hypocrite and has no right to interfer in a states issue.

Maggie-417876

You're right....Unions have a long history of turning violent when they don't get their way....."We'll use the power of persuasion, and if not, we'll use the persuasion of power"...Andy Stern,SEIU

I do have a couple of questions. First, why did it take so long to come to this solution? And what do we do with Democrat Senators when they come back?Personally I think they should all be brought up for impeachment for refusing to do what they were elected to do.

Sorry Mike, this should have been directed to Minan59.

When the going gets rough...the Dems. run and hide. They didn't think it was such a bad idea to shove the HRC Bill through though, did they? Gosh, they even did that pretty much in hiding too. Too bad they couldn't have been adult and responsible and discussed ideas, etc. but time marches on and people can't wait until they get over their hissy fit. They can dish it out but can't take it. They have no room to complain. The door was open, but they slammed it.

The Unions are too powerful and too controling of their members and Union shops. The public workers will be just FINE and the scales will be balanced more fairly with their limited bargaining.

I guess the Dems now know the feeling most of us had when Obamacare was rammed through on questionable procedures.

No one here has mentioned that collective bargaining is not a constitutional right of Democracy. Only 38 states have collective bargaining rights for unions. In the other states it is banned. In my job in the private sector, I have no say in my pay, my healthcare and I don't even have a pension. It's not feudalism; I'm not forced to accept the terms if I don't like them. I can go elsewhere. My freedoms are completely intact.

On the other hand, I have been a member of a union in the past, and my husband still is. I am embarrassed by the naked greed and grasping for "more" while refusing to do "more." This whole tripe about being oppressed is ridiculous. The union bosses are every bit as corrupt as your favorite corporate villian. In fact, in NJ, the government worker union boss was in bed, literally, with Gov. Corzine, and got some pretty sweet deals as a result. So please, stop with the self-righteous, high falluting talk about the nobility of unions. Naked greed.

Collective bargaining against business works because there is a check and balance - the business can go out of business if the union demands go beyond what is tenable by the business or competitive in the market place.

However, since governments cannot go out of business there is no check or balance and the unions lay their very demands at the feet of the tax payer.

I am proud of the Republicans for standing up for the taxpayers of Wisconsin and for sending the message to the rest of Obama's union buddies that the gravy train is ending.

Walker for President 2020! After Christie's eight years!!!

Well that sounds like democracy in action... if you can't compromise change the rules.

Democracy means you show up to vote or you lose by default. You don't vote you don't deserve a right to bitch.

As for compromise... where was this compromise when ObamaCare was shoved through in literally the middle of the night? Funny how you only want compromise when it benefits you but not when it is the other side.....

Walker.... WINNING!

I'll ditto that, Richard-2538136 - it is time for even more strength, courage, and power to the people; in this case, to all my union sisters and brothers in WI and throughout the nation!

In 30 minutes, 18 state senators undid 50 years of civil rights in Wisconsin," Democratic Sen. Mark Miller said in a statement. "

Wisconsin does not have one civil right that is the right to work. States that do not have right to work laws are generally in worse financial shape that right to work states, thanks unions.

LOVE. LOVE. LOVE this governor !!!!! I so wish he was my state's governor!!! No, I want him as our next president !!!! A great man of courage, conviction and and common sense. A true American hero.

The AWOL Dem senators are the worst examples of politicians in history. They should all be fined and fired. The United States simply must not tolerate PUBLIC UNIONS. They represent a severe conflict of interest to the American taxpayer.

Wisconsin does not have one civil right that is the right to work. States that do not have right to work laws are generally in worse financial shape that right to work states, thanks unions.

Back that up. Can't? Probably because the following is true:

Wisconsin:

The state faces a looming $2.7 billion budget shortfall

Texas:

Yesterday the News‘ Robert Garrett used the $15 billion number. Today the News’ Christy Hoppe uses the $27 billion number.

Rational AmeriCAN: You're exactly right. FDR, the New Deal architect, was wary of PUBLIC-sector unions. And George Meany said you can't collectively bargain with the government. But the hypocrites on the left still won't recognize or understand the distinction between public and private sector unions that you elucidate.

As I suspect you are aware, the process or system is only acceptable if it works in their favor.

From what my friend (a resident) told me $25 a day plus the ride and food

So is "friend" code for Rush, Shawn, Glen or Bill?

No, I want him as our next president !!!!

PLEASE get him as the GOP candidate for 2012! Nothing would secure a bigger loss. Not even Palin.

Cleteacher

Well that sounds like democracy in action... if you can't compromise change the rules.

Ah isn't this a favorite tactic of the Democratic Party? If memory serves me correctly, our Democratic Spending Party in CA uses this tactic continually in their strategy to use taxpayer money for their purposes. They have controlled the legislature for some time now, that is the reason why CA is more than $28B in debt......that and the nonsustainable pensions of the unions. Why, CA is so liberal that the taxpayers even pay to support one government agency devoted to the Democratic Party!

Now what would you be saying if the roles were reversed and the Dems did this to the opposition. You would probably then agree with the tactic.

The leftists whine and try to take the ball out of the game and get stuffed for it. That is so cool. This should happen around the country.

Public employees should be able to bargain for what they get, but it should be up to a vote of the people for every contract. And strikes not allowed.

Let this be a lesson to the left. Btw, I am democrat, but not a leftist. John Kennedy wasn't a leftist either and was a life member of the NRA. He has got to be rolling in his grave over the BS that the left wants to associate him with the usual leftist crap.

When corporate interests control government it is called fascism.

One of the first orders of business to always be taken prior to a full fascist takeover is the neutralization of unions by any means possible.

Care to learn more about coming possibilities? Here are a few links to well known sites where you may investigate further. Pay close attention to the Italian model of fascism under Mussolini. I believe you will find the correlations between what took place there then and what is in the process of taking place here now to be most interesting.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Fascism

http://homepage.mac.com/stray/ib/history/fascism.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

How is it there isn't a single liberal here willing to admit that there is a cost associated with collective bargaining in the public sector and that cost has a significant impact on local, state and federal budgets? If just one of you would acknowledge this you might start to understand why this bill is EXACTLY about the budget.

And lets put the blame for the republican's "nuclear option" passage where it belongs- squarely on the backs of the Flee Party 14. There were many compromises put forth that would have softened the collective bargaining restrictions significantly but the Flee party refused to negotiate on any level. THEY are the reason the republicans in the senate passed this action and if it passes the assembly as expected and is signed by the governor, THEY will be the reason collective bargaining for state employees is limited to salaries only.

So,some of you are ready to canonize a Governor who lied, cheated, and then circumvented the law to avoid negotiations. Oh, so much to be proud of! Yes, all you Republicans, you have a new standard bearer! No one, not even the likes of Gingrich and Palin can hold a candle to Walker's single minded goose step to the Neo-Conservative Democracy Killing Republican Party ideology! So much for the others to live up to, I am just beside myself wondering what will be next! Next? Oh, there is a whole new crop of Democrats in Wisconsin who will be voting in 2012, if not before......

Jimmy Carter and the Democrat controlled House and Senate stripped the federal unions of collective bargaining in the 70s and they are doing just fine. I know because I am in a federal employees union.

The teachers unions will live.

Lisa-468433

If you combine everything as you suggest you have just created more corruption. Few elected representatives can talk to fewer constituents and lobbyists don't have as many people to pitch to.

On another note.....

If I were a resident of WI I would be MAD that my representatives chose not to represent me on such ground breaking legislation. If people are going to be getting RECALLED I would be starting with those that abandoned their job.

But its ok for democrats to CRAM Obamacare down our throats?

Just like Democ Rats to run away and hide to avoid voting and then moan and groan when the vote takes place without them.

My apologies if someone has previously alluded to the cowards comments. But...hiding in Illinois does not bravery make.

Hello michigian voter -546572.... you just completely validated the very argument AGAINST the Democrats! The Republicans in Congress stayed and debated and tried to stop the health care bill but were in the minority and failed, and guess what, now the horrible bill has put them in the majority in the house.

WI demi-gods, i mean democrats, decided to run away and hide like cowards, afraid to stand and make their points because they knew they didnt have the numbers, that is not courage or democracy, it is cowardly and insult to the people. If the repubs passed the measure guess what? Elect a dem majority next election and they will give the bargaining rights right back to the union hacks that they support.

Headline Article...
GOP rams anti-union bill through Wis. Senate

and right below it...

2011 was a record year for the world's billionaires!

HAHAHAHAHA - we're all suckers!!

Hey private workers...now it's your turn to sacrifice again since the public workers just got their turn.

Don't worry you don't get a choice either!!

FairTaxFan, I totally disagree with that. Walker has said from the start, no changes, no compromise. They were given NO possibility of input and I back them 100% in slowing things down and bringing more national attention to the issue. My point only backs your argument if you stand on your head and twist the facts beyond recognition.

wizard-2245918

"When corporate interests control government it is called fascism."

Actually, it is just the opposite. When government controls corporations, it is fascism.

What the left wants to ignore is the truth. read and weep. Then deny and call names. That is what the left does when it doesn't get its way, kind of like children without discipline. "Mommy, mommy, I want more, even though I don't deserve it and haven't earned it." Why? "Just because I say so."

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/09/does-spending-more-on-education-improve-academic-achievement

jrl,

One more example of a liberal comparing the opposition to hitler. the same claim the left uses to claim the right is so bad.

Never mind the fact that there is a similarity between what the GOP just did in Wisconsin and the event mentioned by witchking.

If you can mention an event where Dems tried to kill unions like this, you'll have a point. Otherwise it seems like whining about an appropriate comparison just because you don't like it.

SIGN: "Privatize Profit.....Socialize Debt"

Typical Socialist attitude. Bet a dollar to a donut the person holding up this sign is NOT A TEACHER.

It is truly amazing that one of the "Running Scared" Democrats said that he was going to return to "Bring back Democracy to Wisconsin". That sounds like the protesters in Egypt and other middle Eastern countries. If this guy had any b...., he would have stayed and voted. But, I suppose he was given his marching orders by the AFL-CIO. How would that make you feel.....voters of Wisconsin ????

If the AFL-CIO paid for these "MISSING NO-GUTS DEMOCRATS" lodging, then the voters of Wisconsin should be outraged.

Sorry Wisconsin - you get what you vote for. Sorry.

The BoycottScottWalker facebook page likes is growing at an amazing pace... I think this is a good indication that the people are not going to take any more of these illegal tactics to destroy the middle class. At this point I think people have to decide if they are with the middle class or against it.

Democrats play obstructionism, working like union bosses to protect their war chest, abandoning the democratic process and this is the consequence. Is time to end the tyranny of the unions. Good job Gov. Walker and Republicans like it or not this democracy in action if you have any doubt just look how Obamacare pass in Congress.

The Good Ol' Pharts rammed us alright! High unemployment, slowly removing unions, and under educating our kids. Eventually companies won't have to send their business over to China or Mexico. They'll have cheap labor right here... as they and their paid off politicians (both Dems and Repubs) laugh all the way to the bank.

Way to go! First step in the direction of fiscal sanity!

To those who are crying about legality, you should stop and realize the state legislature gave the unions the "rights" that they have enjoyed for many years. If it was within their power to grant those "rights" it is within their power to take them away.

It has long been shown that this was never about the budget. Walker admitted that himself to his boss, David Koch.

However, for once I do agree with the right: the Democrats should not have run out of the state. That's not how things are supposed to be done.

I wouldn't have ran. I would have made a statement that the voters are to blame for this one and voted my no vote and let the republicans start their war on the middle and lower class families. The not so smart people seem to forget that also includes themselves.

Yup. This Republican legislature stuck it to em. It's typical Republican politics. Tell em what they want to hear, then stick it to the people who voted for them. When will you 'conservatives' learn. These people don't care about anyone, but their own interests.

It's certain that when WI voters gave the R's the keys, they weren't planning on this.

Why are you folks so critical of Wisconsin's passing a bill to lower taxes and get the government and the taxpayers out of debt? Hard-working citizens are paying the salaries of the hyped-up union wages. Not only is Wisconsin rivaling Obama's jillion dollar debt, but their unions are being uncooperative and short-sighted ... in my opinion.

And btw... I belong to the AFL-CIO for my daytime job but it doesn't apply to my moonlighting job. That one requires a college degree, computer skills, computer ownership, writing, researching, and editing ability. My hourly wage is $20 below the union wages for work which requires... get this: Able to Read, Write, and Do Basic Math. THAT'S ALL! These are the guys in the union. What happened to performance? Skills? Education!!!

In this discussion, we read a headline that is loaded with inflammatory come-on words... and watch everyone take off running. And this, folks, is just NOT POLITICS! It is something called SURVIVAL by all of us. Fair play! Those of us who pay the taxes and those of us who earn our wages and have some pride in our own efforts.

There is, btw, a distinct difference between News Reporting and Opinion Pieces by ethical journalists. How about being ethical readers?

You might find this interesting:

"Yellow journalism or the yellow press is a type of journalism that presents little or no legitimate well-researched news and instead uses eye-catching headlines to sell more newspapers. Techniques may include exaggerations of news events, scandal-mongering, or sensationalism. By extension "Yellow Journalism" is used today as a pejorative to decry any journalism that treats news in an unprofessional or unethical fashion." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism

Thinking for ourselves cannot happen these days unless we check the facts objectively. And the old New York Times, which no longer, it seems, exists, used to have a motto on their opinion page including the ideas of readers:

Disagree if you must, but do not be disagreeable.

Vance Wilder 'Wisconsin does not have one civil right that is the right to work. States that do not have right to work laws are generally in worse financial shape that right to work states, thanks unions.' "Back that up"

Instead of 'cherry picking' states, just look at the biggest problem states - California, New York and Illinois - All dominated by Democrats and public sector unions.

As for the descriptions of a the Wisconsin public sector unions being without protections now, the reality is that there are plenty of protections (both state and federal) to prevent abuses, just like there are for non-union employees throughout this country.

The democrats forced the republicans to show just how shrewd and low they will go to hurt the people. The republicans have their corporate bosses to appease and keep those bonuses, I mean donations rolling in. This is good. A child learns to stay away from the growling dog even more so after they have been bitten. In China, the republicans can actually beat their workers in order to speed up production. If it weren't for OSHA, they could do the same thing here. Now to get rid of OSHA!!! We have a republican majority and can have the bill on the table by tomorrow morning.

RN in Philly

You guys don't honestly think you can recall the governor who accomplished something for all of the taxpayers in WI? This guy is going to end up president.

Now, you know, I do not do drugs. But in this case I may make an exception. Could you kindly pass me whatever it is you are on?

If the Dems did this, it would be called a slick piece of maneuvering. HCR was a real work of art. People are still finding out what it was that got passed. 14 Dem. senators walked off the job rather than vote. Recalls go both ways. A few Dems just might be heading home before it's all over. I guess the WI folks figure that government just comes to a halt until THIS gets straightened out? Don't be the least bit surprised if, that's a big if, a recall is managed and nothing changes. I think there's a vocal minority and a silent majority and when push comes to shove this is what the people wanted.

Just look at California. The moment that the Republicans, and only a few 5 to be exact was willing to sit down with Jerry Brown the unions put out a letter warning JB, don't even think about it, we have suffered long enough, not going to happen. Fine with me start laying the excess fat off.

What I don't like about Unions is they are willing to sacrifice some of their own member's to keep control. They no longer represent the people, its their self interest that rules the day.

Unions, Corporations both of them will stab you in the back if they think they can get a buck off of you.

A lot of people felt hopeless when the President and crew rammed Health Care Reform through with Pelosi leading the way, gravel in hand. We could not do a thing. That's what elections are for, and Wisconsin voted in a Republican majority so deal with it, we had to. At least the republican stayed and fight, running away is just plan chicken sh!t.

AMEN!! Good Job Senate! Runaway Dems ... GET BACK TO WORK!

@Bob Randall

Sorry, but when government controlls corporations that is communism rather than fascism. If you would simply take the time to look at the sites I provided in my post above you would become aware of the difference between the two ideologies. These are safe well known sites. If you would like I can provide more links to sustain that position. Please take a little time and browse through the links previously provided. Have a pleasant evening.

RoyWilson, you have no idea what the root of the problem is in CA. So don't even go there. Look up Prop 13, because you put you foot in your mouth.

theTotas, Hmmm interesting thing you mentioned about the unions and the corporations. I can point out the difference very quickly. The Unions negotiated their contracts. You may not like the contracts, but both parties agreed.

The corporations are not under contracts!!! This is why our freakin health insurance premium is inflating at 30+% rate!!! Where is the freaking rate control adjusted to the rate of inflation on Healthcare and RX cost????

Bunch of sheeps bahing bullet points as they are herded... fools!!!!

follow the yellow brick road.

Huh? What???

DJ, Sorry your reading comprehension is not too good. It seems like you wanted to say something, but you're not sure what???

WOW! That was a bold move.

Anyone who disagrees with their position and uses hyper eccentric language to express their disapproval (did I see Nazi in their? LOL!) are fools and dishonor the memory of all those who fought or fight for *everyones* basic rights. Not these so-called collective bargaining statues.

That means the right to vote in your government and take action on the issues you voted them to address.

*SABOTAGING THE GOVERNMENT* because your viewpoint in the minority is *VERY UN-AMERICAN*

Now, I'm not 100% with this idea, but if it doesn't work, then vote in some people that will put the statutes back in place. But no one seems to acknowledge that. Why?

*THIS IS NOT ABOUT RIGHTS* that is why, it is politics. The kinds of major shifts in politics that only massive budget changes can cause. And it is no surprise that a lot of people are butt-hurt about it.

I love how the news and the liberals want to paint this as "union busting" when what it really is doing is "limiting union power" not "busting" as the fear-mongers would have everyone believe.

So now public employees can't just walk out to strike while forcing the government to shut down. Guess what. Many states already have that in place as does the federal government-so congrats on catching up WI to the rest of the USA.

Now they can't get a yearly pay raise above a % without the state tax payers voting. It sends the vote to the voters instead of allowing the politicians to simply give outrageous pay raises to favorites. Geez sounds great to me. Voters should get to have a say in whether our public employees are deserving of pay raises. Maybe just maybe public employees who sit behind a desk with their thumbs up their noses might start doing some work behind those desks instead of ignoring the power of the taxpayer in the vote.

My favorite is the argument that this forces the public employees to pay a % of retirement and health benefits. Grow up. Join the private sector in having to work for our benefits. Everyone wants to be a public worker these days for the great benefits. Even in the "right to work" states being a public employee means better benefits than private sector work. Personally I don't think the police and fire should be exempted across the board. I feel any police or fire in the field--front lines--should be exempted but the lazy office workers should not be so lucky-esp the management behind the desks. Management is not putting their lives on the line --the field workers in the police and fire departments are the ones putting their lives on the line thus they should be the only ones given better.

Thumbs up

It seems pretty clear that the vote violated the Wisconsin Open Meeting Law. In previous precedent votes taken that have violated the Open Meeting Law have been turned over and been nullified.

What are the chances that the Republican Senators went ahead with a vote that they know will be overturned in order to draw the Democratic Senators back to Wisconsin just so they can be compelled to session and then a legal vote can be taken?

Are the Republicans that smart? They have been trying to arrange other deceptive ploys to get the Democrats back.

Reliant - - - If they nullify the vote on the Bill of yesterday, then the Sgt at Arms should just lock the door to the Senate and finally vote on the ORIGINAL Bill.

GOT'EM either way... (lol)

SO WHAT IF IT IS A UNION BUSTING BILL!!! The Unions need to be busted. As a historian I am fully aware that Unions used to provide a vital and needed service. This is no longer true today because they largely just screw their own members and rake in money (also screwing taxpayers in the meantime). If the teacher unions are so great, then why are teachers always underpaid?! I'm sorry, but an 8% pay cut in these economic times is NOTHING! The private sector is hurting much more. Many people would be grateful to receive a pay cut so long as they kept their job at all.

The NEA true agenda...it's all about the money, power and collective bargaining rights..

" And that brings me to my final and most important point. Which is why, at least in my opinion, NEA and its affiliates are such effective advocates.

Despite what some of us might like to believe,

it is not because of our creative ideas,

it is not because of the merit of our positions,

it is not because we care about children

and it is not because we have a vision for a great public school for every child.

NEA and its affiliates are effective advocates because we have power. And we have power because there are more than 3.2 million people who are willing to pay us hundreds of millions of dollars in dues each year...."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-piPkgAUo0w

You can see the rest for yourself if you like.

So the Unions for the State employees and the employees themselves don't like something shoved down their throat? The irony......

Some perks for NEA Officials, on top of their $100-$300,000 a year salaries

• First-class air travel when the trip exceeds four hours.
• Authorization for chartered airplane travel in case "constraints of timeliness" would "make it imperative."
• Reimbursement for laundry, dry cleaning, in-room movies and exercise facilities when a trip consists of three days or more.
• A separate union phone line in their homes.
• Automobile maintenance and repair, plus comprehensive insurance coverage if the vehicle is driven more than 10,000 miles for union business. The union self-insures the deductible.
• Office supplies and computer equipment for board members' homes.
• A new set of luggage and a briefcase every three years.
• $300 per month for child, pet or garden care.
• Companion travel to three union events per year.

Read more: Have the teachers seen this? http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=3116#ixzz1GC36JHMp

The $300 a month for child, PET or GARDEN care really is absurd.....this is the equal for all mentality...it isn't FAIR for those that don't have children, that those that do get extra money....so $300/month for Fido....or the green beans.

No wonder the Union leadership is up in arms about the dues not being taken directly out of the teachers paychecks.......

I dont see why the Democrats are complaining - they are the ones who fled the State in an attempt to defeat the democratic process. As far as "pushing the bill through" remember how the Democrats got OBamacare got passed. What's good for the goose......

Finally the right thing was done, I wish I would've voted Republican years ago.

The lying unions finally have to work for what they get. The end of black-mail is over with maybe now they can get good teachers to put out a better student than what has been.

Why should 1% of the populace recieve the majority of tax money for less than average work.

RiverDog-1572451....It's these same Unions that were the first to jump on board to back ObamaCare, and then were among the first to get Waivers from it.

You have to wonder... After a month without 14 senators, do we need this many? Seems to me, other then technicalities in passing laws, everything went just fine. I wonder how much we can save in the government if we reduced middle management, and simply expanded the districts.... Hmmmm....

Why did he exclude the police and fireman unions? Why is he trying to balance the budget on the backs of the teachers of Wisconsin? Should this decision not been given even parity for ALL unions and not just the teachers?

Be careful what you wish for as you just might get it.

I don't live in Wisconsin, I live in Florida. I also know a lot of teachers down here and can attest that they work mighty hard for their meager salaries and perform the most crucial task of any governmental employee - they educate our children. We the people need to wake up and recognize that education is the single most important component of any thriving economy. Without education, we are nowhere.

As a society, I find it is critical to determine what services we absolutely need and to determine what a fair price is for that service. It is then the purpose of government to both collect and distribute the revenues for this service. If you feel that education is not that important, that is your right to have that opinion but I would fervently disagree with it.

You can blame the democrats for failing to stay and negotiate on behalf of their constituents rather than run and hide. You got what you voted for...COWARDS!

Collective bargaining? If these "supporters" were really, TRULY, supportive of unions then they would push for ALL workers to be represented by unions! Imagine the Fast Food Workers and Waiters/Waitresses union... Can you say $10 Big Mac? (no, not the damn meal option)

What about our military? Don't they put more on the line in their jobs than most of these union members? What if the military had a union and went on strike to strangle the government for higher wages?

The Democrats RAN AWAY rather than fight and wasted three weeks accomplishing nothing. Who cares if they ever come back? Let them get pay for nothing like all of the protestors!

Don't blame the Republicans for out-manuevering and out-thinking the Democrats! Who played dirty first?

thturd "RoyWilson, you have no idea what the root of the problem is in CA. So don't even go there. Look up Prop 13, because you put you foot in your mouth."

I'm well aware of Prop 13 (In fact, I voted for it), and I still live there. It was needed because the politicians were taxing retired people (and working people) out of their homes by wild spending, and all they had to do was just keep raising property tax rates. With Prop 13, the ploiticians had some brakes put on them, and some fiscal sanity prevailed.

Unfortunately, the wild spending has continued over the last 8 years or so under the Democrats, and now we have a crisis. Either spending has to be cut, or taxes (already about the highest in the country) will have to increase - driving even more businesses out of state.

Spending cuts are the only real solution, but with Democrats in control of everything, that will be difficult

You mean like running away and not doing your job, that was a good compromise. Its amazing its ok when Dems do these things but at least in those cases the other side stays instead of acting like 5 year olds.

Bob-4...,

I have been a non-union teacher before. The eventual pay was better than the "union" schools. Raises were given based on merit, bad teachers were fired. I don't care a rat's behind for whether the union prospers; I care if the students prosper. Our new teachers got paid less than union teachers; they had to prove they could actually teach to get a raise and be retained. A proven teacher made about 20k more a year than union teachers with equal seniority. The concept of "collective merit" (combined merit of the group/union) determining my pay is flawed. Only bad teachers benefit from collective merit determining their pay. The good teachers get penalized by collective bargaining. I prefer to work a job where my merit determines my pay, but then, I do my craft well. If the quality of my work was poor, I would be a union hugging maniac.

How the Republicans feel about workers rights:

"You may imagine my rage when I was informed that the Governor was facing down seventy thousands of angry state workers after informing them that they had lost their right to bargain for Union contracts! He allowed them to rise up like so many aspirational prairie-dogs, without fear of lashing, the gibbet, nor public humiliation!

Wisconsin, as we all know, is a hinterland of ruddy-faced, venison-gnashing peasants, so naturally the in-ability of this man to rule there infuriated me so greatly that my iron dentures clashed together with a force sufficient to spot-weld them closed. We have come to a pretty pass in this country when common citizens feel they have the right to assemble in public and shout any God-damned thing they want!

Once I had been calmed and my jaws freed by my house dentrifice-monger, I discussed the matter of the Union workers with my solicitors. My first question, of course, was whether or not these Union toilers could be replaced with vastly less expensive workers under the Confederate model, but I was informed that for various complex reasons this may not be feasible for several years."

Courtesy of The Onion.

pretty funny stuff

Sean-336944 ..(#1.39)..You wrote "Laura, you're a liar, plain and simple." When she wrote that Walker offered compromises. He did. Democrats wanted all or nothing and turned them down.....

You owe Laura an apology. Man up.

"Under the compromise floated by Walker and detailed in the e-mails, workers would be able to continue bargaining over their salaries with no limit, a change from his original plan that banned negotiated salary increases beyond inflation. He also proposed compromises allowing collective bargaining to stay in place on mandatory overtime, performance bonuses, hazardous duty pay and classroom size for teachers.

Increased contributions for health insurance and pension, projected to save the state $330 million by mid-2013, would remain. The unions and Democrats have agreed to those concessions to help balance a projected $3.6 billion budget shortfall.

Sen. Bob Jauch, one of the 14 AWOL Democrats, said he hoped the compromise would serve as a blueprint for future negotiations. But he and Sen. Tim Cullen, who were both working with Walker’s administration, said the latest offer was inadequate."

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20110308/GPG0101/110308120/0/GPG0206/Read-e-mails-Walker-offers-compromises-talks-over-state-budget-bill?odyssey=nav|head

Dear Roy Wilson,

Unfortunately California is one of those ultra-liberal "give a hand-out to anyone with a hand out" type of states, isn't it? A mess of the "citizens" there think that drugs are the solution to their problems and the problems of everyone else in California.

Wisconsin may have set the standard for what REAL bravery looks like! Against all of the protesting, harassment, and delays the Republicans stood fast and voted for what they think is a step in the right direction. Maybe (possibly), someday the people and politicians of California will wake up from their foolish follies and find a solution...but will it be in time?

Lucky: I'm indifferent in many ways to the Union. My beef is with the governor picking exclusively on the teachers union. Why did he not do the same thing for all unions? Police, fireman, other state employees, etc.

Education is the single most important service we provide as a society. I have issues with much of what the unions do in keeping tenure, promoting, merit pay raises, etc. However, when we as a society finally wake up and recognize that education is more important than things like waging war in foreign countries for example, we can then begin to set our priorities in order better than we have in the past. With more education, we won't need as much in the way of police protection. With more education we will have a more highly developed labor pool which by all free market measuring tools will bring about better economic prosperity for everyone.

Establish a value for what the piper is worth then pay the piper. If that means raising taxes, so be it. Milton Friedman always said "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch". If you want to have certain fundamental services, they all cost money. Determine what goods and services take priority and pay for them as a society. Education should be on the very top of the list.

Bob-429579,

I hate to enlighten you, but without police and firefighters there would be no teaching except in homes or caves. Criminals would rule. Please think about it.

Bob-429579,

Furthermore, if you think education is the answer to everything, I would have to say that you are dead wrong. Criminals out for a fast buck and people who don't want and education will always be a problem.

Education is important, but it is not the "ALL INCLUSIVE ANSWER" to everything!

I love MSN. "RAMS" through the bill. Sort of like President Obama and Nancy Pelosi RAMMING the health care bill down our throats. What's good for the goose is good for the gander!

Don't like it? tough, elections for Walkers job is in 4 years, deal with it.

The same union nonsense on here day after day. Don't you people work?

Why is it that every time someone mentions the government union workers, they only know teachers, firemen, and policemen? The rude bald guy sitting behind a desk at the DMV who is rude daily will now have to be nice to the tax payer as his pay raises will depend on it. There are far more government workers than teachers, policemen, and firemen combined, yet these are the three we hear about.

@RickGaffron--do you support the teachers, firemen, and police? They are after all fellow taxpayers

when fascim comes to america, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross"....the way i see it, your either with corporate america, or average joe america!

This is exactly it.

What is needed is a BALANCE between corporate America and the average joe. Corporate America has rigged the deck.

"With thunderous applause liberty dies" -star wars

Never has a line in a movie made more sense to me than today. The individuals in this country sold there rights to speak collectively for a twenty dollar tax cut. Wow. Funny that these same people say they want their country back. Do they realize that the bill has no bid contracts in it. If that is not UN- American I dont know what is? The Governor decides who get public contracts with no oversight? No checks and balance really? "With thunderous applause libery dies". One individual by themseleves stands no chance of changing this government by themselves but together we can. This is one of the true premises behind unions. It as american as apple pie. However we have been persuaded with a cheap bribe of tax cuts that dont even go to us but to corporations who have chosen to leave OUR COUNTRY to make a buck. Why do we not refuse to do business with those corporations instead of allowing them to hold us hostage to what they think we should make. They are in a sense, forget that, they are forcing you to be happy making what they make in; INDIA,CHINA,MEXICO,INDONESIA, ect. Its funny that true americans would say no way will we let that happen to my country, but it seems that they have "Sold there soul to the devil and the price was cheap."

In Michigan they have voted to allow the Governor to come in and set up a special manger that can override the mayors, city councils, i.e. local governments to change things that the governor thinks needs to changed. Let me get this straight, that is american? Replace the elected officials with one all powerful non-elected official? This is going on all over this country from WISCONSIN, OHIO,MICHIGAN,NEW JERSEY, FLORIDA, to ARIZONA. AND "WITH THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE LIBERTY DIES!!!"

Great news for the taxpaying citizens of Wisconsin..!
Thanks to Gov. Walker and the Senators who voted for this bill..
Maybe the other chickens who fled, will come back and go back to work...

Well done, Wi. Democratic senators who ran and hid. MSM is trying to paint this as Dems were outmaneuvred, but you knew the Repubs would do this eventually. You now have the admiration of the unions and liberals as heroes who'll vote for you no matter what and you'll be able to take credit later on when the hard work and tough decisions of the Repubs begins to have good results getting the states budget under control and in balance. I say well done.

When unions are in the government the taxpayer has to pay the bill and that is especially unfair when government workers get better pay and benefits than those doing the same type of thing in the private sector!

MS-85>..finally, someone has it right. however,,it is going to be interesting to see just how much power the voters have in WI now..if they really push for a recall..which means those voted into office have to follow the voters request for a recall...I find it hard to believe any republican is going for it..the voters will have top push really hard to get this recall done. AS for what MR Carlin stated..he was completely correct. Our politicans follow whatever direction wall street wants..remember folks,,the bankers wanted and got deregulation...they created loans that were then sold to investors as class A loans..which was a lie...then...they were bailed out by the tax payers..thanks to our elected..for problems they , the banks, created themselves. Wall street controls the cost of the gas and oil used in this country every day...speculators, allowed by your congress run up prices and cost on whatever they think will give them the most money and control every day. The reform your elected talked about..have you seen it..what reform..there are no controls on anything pricewise...all oversite committees created by congress have politicans on them that own stock in those same company's and areas that they are suppose to over see..and lets not forget that these same politicans receive funds from lobbyist...for their so called re-elections...anyone ever seen any audits of just where that money went ?

Bob Randall

You're a Democrat yeah right. A Democrat that cites the Heritage foundation as support in an argument? If you believe that I've got a bridge to sell you.

You may be a liar and a paid fascist corporate Republican schill. But you are no Democrat.

I wrote my rant and then summarized it so I do not look like a bloated school admin trying to justify his job. (See above)

Unions for public servants are BAD for the country. FDR agreed. I agree with the statement. The Union is the voters, not a democrat form DC posing as a Union "Leader".

For those worried about the state of Education that will result. Where are you when there are matters that impact education, that do not impact your wallet? You have the entire education system doing its best to dumb down the top educated students. You want an example?

Top public schools in Chicago have an entrance exam. If you are from a rich (WHITE) neighbor hood you have to score over 80% on the test to have a chance at admission. If you are form a poor (BLACK) neighborhood you only have to score above 20% for the same chance.

So you tell me, are we educating students to our best ability or coddling the black community? But you educators wont step up and say OMG how can we lower standards for all in education to coddle the black man? You sit there fat dumb and happy with what you are told to feed the sheep. Well now it is time for you to step in line like the sheep you have been. If you would have fought to keep the education system top notch the economy would not be so terrible and more tax dollars to go around. You ruined it all for everyone so take a bite of the shat sandwich you have been serving.

15+ MILLION people laid off now that were supply chain workers ROFL. A job that requires NO education but was being paid 70-150K a year. They were all replaced by people form Asia making 1/10 of that. You lower the bar you reap what you plant. And yeah call me racist. I'll call you socialist. At least my racist self knows how to budget and that "free" is only an illusion. There is no magical money so I guess the racist is more educated than the teachers. Good luck with your "State of Affairs" and realigning your personal budget to reality with the rest of us.

Ivan,

No recall will happen. You have to understand the reality of the situation. AFTER the bill is passed, or pushed down the union neck, only 7K people show for a protest. BEFORE 80K people showing up? The UNION was paying people to show up to make it look like it was a "big deal". The teachers know this has to be done and done in a timely manner but the unions do not want to lose that money.

Tired of McBush

Replace the elected officials with one all powerful non-elected official?

Sounds like Michigan is setting up Gauleiter to replace those not following the party line. Hmmm! Sounds familiar.

This is great news for the real taxpayers of Wisconsin, the real folks who are accountable for paying the overcompensations in wages, benefits and pensions these Public Sector Union workers receive. Wisconsin, there are many of us down here in IL now pondering moving over the boarder to a taxpayer friendly State. This was a bold move that will put Wisconsin in a far favorable position now and in the future-CONGRATS!!

lucky to be alive-2716553 "I have been a non-union teacher before. The eventual pay was better than the "union" schools. Raises were given based on merit, bad teachers were fired.... Only bad teachers benefit from collective merit determining their pay. The good teachers get penalized by collective bargaining."

I wonder if you have identified one of the biggest problems with our education system. Good teachers will go to work where they will be appreciated and rewarded based on merit. Bad teachers will stay in their union jobs where they don't have to perform well to get raises and benefits, and it's the students (and taxpayers) that get stuck getting short-changed.

I'm sure that there are a lot of excellent teachers in public schools, but the obvious tendency is for bad teachers to be kept because of union rules, while good teachers tend to get shortchanged because they are not paid based on merit, but are stuck getting the same pay and benefits of lousy, lazy teachers.

Kind of hard to compromise if one side doesn't show up for the discussion. The hiding Dems should be held for dereliction of duty and removed from office. I can't say I have ever seen such a childish showing from public officials in all of my years. Sorry you don't like the situation. You should have presented better ideas to the voters so that you were in the majority.

Lots of whining from the minority here. Bottom line - the Reps are the majority at the moment and this is one of their agenda items. Anyone talking about how this goes against what the people want is really not in touch with the democratic process. Hey - I can't stand the idea of universal health care, but that's what we got last year in this country because the other side is currently in the majority. Pretty much the same thing.

Like the Libs are so prone to say - Move On!

@Bob, the bill that passed ONLY exempts police, fire fighters and state patrol unions in Wisconsin. Every other public sector union is subject to the new restrictions (assuming the bill passes the assembly and is signed by Walker, that is). The snow plow drivers, the bus drivers, the prison guards, the whole lot of 'em are all included. The only reason you are hearing so much about the teachers union and not the others is that they are the largest union in the state, the most vocal and the only ones who walked off the job in sufficient numbers to shut their places of employment down in order to protest.

What an incredible thread. We have:

Union mouthpieces spouting the Union talking points

A fair number of posters who have no clue what collective bargaining IS.

The "blame the Tea Party and Republican" crowd.

The "this is an attack on the Middle Class." (It's not, it is defending the Private Sector Middle Class who are being screwed by the Unions.)

Those who think collective bargaining is a "right." (It's not.)

The folks who thinks it is perfectly OK for the Democrats not to do their job.

A fair number of folks who are not on topic and even the topic they're on they can't defend their assertions.

The folks who understand the truth.

WI needs to correct it's budget problems. Removing collective bargaining and having Union members shoulder more of their Health care and Pension %'s is one step in the right direction. Actually, with the passage of the bill, they would no longer have to pay Union dues, which would probably make up for the increases in Health Care and Pension. That's a win-win in my book.

The numbers on this thread that are against the bill does not reflect true %'s. These folks only make up 9.9% of the entire US workforce. If you went by the number of complainers on the thread, you would think the % would be much higher. This bill is for the MAJORITY of WI voters, unfortunately, the minority who are Union members are very vocal since they've grown accustomed to the "entitlement" mentality and can do with not 1 cent less. Well, it is time to put on your "big girl panties" and start taking responsibility for making things better in your State. Do your part, instead of being part of the problem.

Kudos to Gov Walker and the Republicans who have been doing their jobs. Once the whiners go home and folks find out the truth, this will be "much ado about nothing." The Democrats who left the state? Only you folks should be the ones to be put up for recall. Why???? Because you're not doing your job. There is no reason to recall any of the others, since they have been doing their job.

And for those of the Unions employees who absolutely cannot have any changes. You are free to go elsewhere for a job, just like those of us in the Private sector do. Then you will find out just how much better you had it, even with the concessions, than the Private sector does, then you will know just how important your greed was to you.

To Ohio, my home state, who is also deeply in the Red and passing the same bill. Keep up the good fight! We need this even more than WI does. The time for change is NOW. We need a balanced budget, and new jobs. High taxes and the Unions have drained so many jobs out of the State. It is time to create a job-friendly environment. We can only do so by correcting previous wrongs. No one said it would be easy, but it is morally and ethically CORRECT! We cannot continue to spend what we do not have.

Imagine, a bill passed that stands on it's own. No using taxpayer money to bribe legislators for votes (ie: no LA purchases, etc.). No I'll vote for this if you insert that for me. Just a simple bill that everyone has a chance to vote up or down. What a novel concept.

Now that Wisconsin no longer has to be held hostage to public employee unions (well, they didn't get rid of them completely, and I'm sure that this isn't the last of it), maybe the dems will head back to Wisconsin to vote on the budget bill. If not, then it looks like they will be responsible for layoffs after all.

The amazing thing is that I woke up this morning and it seems that all those public employees still have jobs! How terrible of those cruel repubs! Of course, one shouldn't mention that even the patriarch of modern liberalism, FDR was against public unions.

boog a loo 22 "Dear Roy Wilson, Unfortunately California is one of those ultra-liberal "give a hand-out to anyone with a hand out" type of states, isn't it? ....Wisconsin may have set the standard for what REAL bravery looks like! Against all of the protesting, harassment, and delays the Republicans stood fast and voted for what they think is a step in the right direction. Maybe (possibly), someday the people and politicians of California will wake up from their foolish follies and find a solution...but will it be in time?"

With a Legislature and Governor totally dominated by 'tax & spend' liberals, I doubt very seriously that there is any solution to California's problems short of bankruptcy - with unfunded public worker pension liabilities of about $500 BILLION, their situation is all but hopeless. It was the current governor (Jerry Brown) that initially allowed the public sector unions to 'negotiate' for the outrageous pay and benefits that they now get, so the chance of them actually standing up to them is minimal, especially when the Democratic politicians were elected with the help of the unions that basically tell them "Give us what we want, or we'll replace you with someone that will". The unions are now saying "Don't try to touch our pay or benefits", so Brown has created a monster.

The only thing standing in their way is Prop 13, which requires a 2/3 majority vote to raise taxes. Jerry Brown will make the case for "We need tax increases or we'll have to lay off police, firemen and teachers", but of course he won't mention that 65% of public workers are NOT 'police, firemen or teachers', but merely bureaucrats sitting in the cubicles, counting down the days to early retirement on the taxpayer's dime. When the voters (hopefully) reject the big tax increase, that's when it will get REALLY interesting.

One last comment on this vine. I have never seen so many posts on any subject before. It's obvious that the unions have organized an effort to sway public opinion with pro-union posts, but it appears to have been all for naught, as the Republicans have outsmarted the Democrats - perhaps the Dems should have taken the 'compromises' that Walker offered, but their attitude was "We want everything, or we're not coming back".

Isn't it funny how the Democratic legislators were described as 'Clever' for running away and hiding from their responsibilities, but now the Republicans are described as 'Sneaky' and 'underhanded' for spoiling their games. lol

Ho hum...

The exception for unions is not really an exception, is an extension. Basically the "Cadillac tax" on high level insurance plans would go into effect and hit union members hard and swiftly. They are getting extensions on when the tax takes effect so they can negotiate a health plan that fits the Health Care law requirements. Since unions work on long contracts, the change can't happen as fast as the law wants it to be, otherwise they could run into complications.

For those of you claiming Fascism, you are using the wrong term. The correct term would be Plutocracy, at least I think that's what you're trying to say.

On Wisconsin! This is a great victory for the over-burdened taxpayer. At least the Republicans in DC didn't run away from Obamacare, as vile as it is. They stayed on the job and accepted the fact that they were out-numbered.

Now shut up and go back to school, get back to work! It's over.

Cleteacher

No rules were changed or broken. The rules say that you need a Quorum to pass any legislation for SPENDING in the Senate in Wisconsin. By removing the spending it makes this a procedural bill that goes back to the assembly for a vote. The spending portions of the previous bill become a separate measure that needs to be passed by assembly and senate. Walker offered a generous concession to get Democrats to return but they refused it so who is the party that refused to negotiate? Now the Democrats can come back and face the music for their actions. This will not be helpful to republicans in the elections,but if a person truly believes in their convictions they should be willing to face the consequences of their actions.

After Indiana dumped public employee collective bargaining a few years ago, the state is in a sound fiscal position, ninety percent of former union employees gave themselves a raise by ceasing paying union dues, the quality of state services has improved, and good performing employees are actually seeing pay raises while the slackers have been dismissed.

The only losers in Wisconsin will be the union bosses and the slackers, and I can't say that I'll miss them.

None of the "end of the world" hyperventilating posed by the lefties will come true....they're just trying to scare you..

I think I can safely say that all our politicians and everybody who ever voted for only one party throroughly suck.

Here's a personal prediction. Walker made sure that Republicans lose Wisconsin. If his kind of path is where the Republican party is headed, I predict a landslide Obama re-election in 2012. Then I predict a lot of angry radicalized supporters of Walker to be all mad at who pissed in their cheerios when they've been doing it themselves all along.

Then, I predict even more massive overspending. Because even though the Economy is job #1 in this country for people, it doesn't even rank top 10 for EITHER Democrats or Republicans. So, by the time I die, I completely expect our country to go absolutely nowhere, though you can take faith in that if you live here, the A@@holes will be too busy F**King with each other to really bother you. Well maybe. Your best bet will be to rob as many people as you can inside the letter of the law. Go for it, it is the new American dream!

I've got to find whatever few thinking conservatives are out there and start one of those commune things. Instead of tamborines, tie dyes and long hair, however, we'll wear polo shirts, loafers, and read the Wall Street Journal. Well, until Murdock screws that up, too.

Cleteacher

No rules were changed or broken. The rules say that you need a Quorum to pass any legislation for SPENDING in the Senate in Wisconsin. By removing the spending it makes this a procedural bill that goes back to the assembly for a vote.

Thank you for clairifying this for everyone. Each state has its own rules of law, and most of us don't know of them. Perhaps MSNBC should have also know this information and published it for all to see. But then, that would limit the libbie destructive speech on the site.

My goodness, Bev would not have had a thing to "cut&paste" and Feisty would not have been able to verbally abuse anyone. Oh, no, they would continue no matter what and still not have MSNBC be critical of them. Paid staffers perhaps?

And now, the last remaining upward pressure on wages and benifits no longer exists. For the past decade, wages for all workers has dropped against inflation, and that trend will now accelerate even faster.

People forget: High wages and solid benifits leads to increased consumer spending, spending that drives 70% of this countries economic growth. You cut that, you cut GDP. You cut GDP and debt remains teh same, you get poorer as the debt is a higher percentage. And yes, its perfectly possible to pass a surplus, but have the debt as a percentage of GDP rise.

I love it when people claim union members are overpaid becase they have solid benifits; maybe theres a reason for that? And meanwhile, coorporations are turning record profits.

Our economic model is now fundamentally broken; we have a consumer based economy where consumer spending is slowly starting to trend downward, due to lost wages and benifits. Is it any wonder then, why we can't climb out of the current recession?

Of course, its so EASY to blame Unions for all the states problems, especially during the worst economic downturn in over 60 years. Nevermind teh fact Walker already pushed through a giant tax cut for the wealthy to "spur economic development".

In 20 years, when the top 5% controls 95% of the wealth, and the country is permantly stuck in recession, remember this day.

"Well that sounds like democracy in action... if you can't compromise change the rules."

What an idiot, Democrats run from the state because they don't have the support of the majority, they don't have the backbone to have an honest debate, and this idiot has the gonads to blame the Republicans just like this bias propaganda report did. It's alright when Obama, Pelosi and Reid ram through their health care bill that the majority were against. It turned out to have 105 billion dollars worth of hidden funding, that nobody but them knew about. That must have been the surprise Pelosi was talking about. It alright for the left to lie cheat and steal, but if the right manages to out smart the stupid left at their own game when they are trying to cheat, the right is the bad guy? Not buying it!!!

Occam's Razor Comment collapsed by the community

Cannot compromise? with whom? Am I missing something here. There has been a lot of time for discussions - in the capitol and not by email across the border. I am not a fan of stripping away the "rights" that were previously voted for the union members. However, the democrats ruined their chances.

I notice in the press that there are comments across Wisconsin about an uprising created by the Governor's move to cut the budget. I agree 100%. It is happening in California and other states also. The uprising is to kill the excessive spending. The goal - to not spend more than the government agency brings in. The change is growing

...yea, another thoughtful comment collapsed by the illiberal left.

Roy Wilson: Instead of 'cherry picking' states, just look at the biggest problem states - California, New York and Illinois - All dominated by Democrats and public sector unions.

Actually, Texas and California are running neck and neck as having the highest projected budget deficits for the entire US (estimates for our deficit - yes, I'm a Texan - are as high as $27 billion as opposed to the $15 billion earlier estimated). California has a projected $25.4 billion deficit. Texas, a right-to-work state that has been 100% Republican run for over a decade. If you want to compare deficit apples to apples, look at Texas and California...no other states come close. I know you want to blame unions and Democrats for budget deficits, but that is not a rational nor realistic viewpoint. To quote Silent Cal: You lose.

Justice serviced. Unions and Union Dues and crony politics and Government to not mix. Absolute power breeds absolute corruption. Excellent move, other sates should follow. Regardless of the Democrat Cowards.

Look like the unions prevent Democrats from doing their jobs. Who had the idea to flee to IL and play hooky?

The Wisconsin GOP screwed up. They called a vote on part of the Budget Repair bill a few hours after meeting with Gov. Walker, who obviously approved of this plan, without giving proper procedural notice (24 hours) of an impending vote so senators could get back to the Capital if they happened to be in another part of the state, on vacation, etc.

More importantly, they claim they separated just the collective bargaining component from the bill which would only require a simple majority to convene. This is where they screwed up. They actually left some fiscal items in the bill they expeditiously voted on such as requiring state workers to pay a portion of their healthcare and retirement costs. This reduces state spending. When voting on bills which contain spending items a quorum is required. They did not have a quorum.

Governor Walker's stubborness and now his lack of legislative process knowledge have already and will continue to cost WI taxpayers as the bill is challenged in court and ultimately overturned.

While we are at it. I do believe the State should bill the Unions for all the Police overtime and all the damage they caused to the Capitol. It is disgusting that the Unions would believe it is OK to cause such destruction. (Yet, once again, the Unions are unnecessarily costing the Taxpayers money. What a waste!) Let alone, it does nothing to improve their credibility!

99% of the Left Wing Liberal/Progressive Wack Jobs posting on here aren't even Wisconsinites. LOL! Pretty hard to recall a Governor that ain't yours.

Hurray for Governor Walker, the Republicans (they sure ain't the RINOS we've had in the past. Heck I might even vote Republican if this keeps up), and the citizens of Wisconsin. The yoke of the Socialist/Marxist/Communist oppressors has been lifted. Freedom's light is shining on the land of cheese, beer, and brats.

I can't wait for the video of all those freakin yahoo losers being dragged from the Capitol screaming "Don't taze me bro!!!!" LOL!

"The whole world is watching!" protesters shouted as they pressed up against the heavily guarded entrance to the Senate chamber.

Police carried dozens of protesters from a hallway leading to the Wisconsin Assembly on Thursday as Democratic representatives pounded on the locked door of the chamber, demanding to be let in to the room where a vote was scheduled on an explosive bill that would take away public workers' collective bargaining rights.

That’s right, so STOP EMBARRASSING US! Grow up!!! God help our children if THIS is what we have TEACHING them!

Do you even CARE how many police officers have hurt their backs carrying you out of the building? They should ARREST you and throw away the key! Go have your temper tantrum somewhere else!

Perhaps they should all contact their FAKE doctors for prescriptions for VALIUM so they can calm down and act rationally.

Your democratic congressmen FAILED you, AGAIN!

ROY WILSON-336103: Instead of 'cherry picking' states, just look at the biggest problem states - California, New York and Illinois - All dominated by Democrats and public sector unions.

When someone makes a false statement one only needs to show that the statement is false.

notforsale: Wisconsin does not have one civil right that is the right to work. States that do not have right to work laws are generally in worse financial shape that right to work states, thanks unions.

I did not need to broadly disprove him, as you claim. I just needed to disprove him. I did using his own state, a historically republican state:

Vance Wilder: Back that up. Can't? Probably because the following is true:

Wisconsin:

The state faces a looming $2.7 billion budget shortfall

Texas:

Yesterday the News' Robert Garrett used the $15 billion number. Today the News' Christy Hoppe uses the $27 billion number.

If someone makes a comment that "men are generally gay." One only needs to show proof that there are men that are not gay and the statement is disproved. There is no need to show that all men are not gay.

So... try again.

I wonder how many of these protesters voted for Walker, saying "Obamas" not doing anything (fast enough). Those that voted for Walker, I guess are getting exactly what they voted for.......screwed

Vote Democratic in 2012

That’s right, so STOP EMBARRASSING US! Grow up!!! God help our children if THIS is what we have TEACHING them!

Do you even CARE how many police officers have hurt their backs carrying you out of the building? They should ARREST you and throw away the key! Go have your temper tantrum somewhere else!

Perhaps they should all contact their FAKE doctors for prescriptions for VALIUM so they can calm down and act rationally.

Your democratic congressmen FAILED you, AGAIN!

Capitalizing "power" words does not make a more informed or better post. Actually, it's considered "yelling" on the internet...

I suppose you should take your own advice: Take a "VALIUM" and "go have your temper tantrum somewhere else!"

It's 11:30AM on a Thursday, and all those people are where? Not at work, that's for sure. Guess it's those union rules that allow them to take as much time off work as they want during the day, leaving the heavy lifting to those who are actually at the office doing what? Working for a living.

I love those union people who are screeching that their pay has been frozen for the last couple of years. I guess it's nice to be insulated from the millions of people in this country who have lost their jobs in the last couple of years, lost their savings as they've tried to keep themselves afloat and in their homes, and are having to do a complete startover in their later lives.

Cate,

I love those union people who are screeching that their pay has been frozen for the last couple of years. I guess it's nice to be insulated from the millions of people in this country who have lost their jobs in the last couple of years, lost their savings as they've tried to keep themselves afloat and in their homes, and are having to do a complete startover in their later lives.

You are correct. I saw this union loser on TV telling how his union had sacrificed $150 million. When asked what the sacrifices were he said wage and benefit freezes. Funny most of us define a sacrifice as losing something. This new generation of public union entitled Americans thinks sacrificing is when you don't get something. If the Leftists on here want to be taken seriously going forward they really need to deal in fact and reality and not Orwellian "Newspeak".

About 100 years ago the unions were despearately needed to keep the workers from being taken advantage of in every way imaginable. The USWA (United Steelworkers of America) was massive and their power unbreakable UNTIL they started abusing the system with ridiculous wage demands, job transfers, on and on. They got greedy and in the end the USWA became a joke. It just killed Pittsburgh and turned it into a house of rust. I feel very sad that teachers will get caught in this mess, but at the same time what is wrong with expecting any State employee to pay MORE towards pension, healthcare, etc. My healthcare, for a single person, skyrocketed last year, my deductible went up 30% and my wages didn't change. It's the way things are now. I seem to recall Detroit going the way of the dust because of their unions.....

Vance Wilder

As opposed to "quotes?" Sounds like you are sucking on sour grapes...so sorry you are such a sore loser and lost your precious ablity to FEED off the taxpayers anymore

I'm watching video from the Capital Bldg. in Wisconsin....Is this the future of what the opponents of any legislation are free to do ??....Take over Public Buildings ?? And it's getting ugly, with protesters resisting the police.

All I seem to see are college kids that have protest-envy, cause they missed out on the 60's and have spent their money on dope and can't afford to join their classmates on Spring Break in some Caribbean paradice....

...and Unemployed Union construction workers from who knows where, collecting their 99 weeks while being bused in to make a lot of noise and be intimidating

And now death threats are being made to Republican lawmakers there....Didn't they get Obama's message after Rep. Giffords was shot ??

Or are they answering the call to action :

"Rep. Michael Capuano (D-Mass.) fired up a group of union members in Boston with a speech urging them to work down in the trenches to fend off limits to workers' rights like those proposed in Wisconsin.

"I’m proud to be here with people who understand that it’s more than just sending an email to get you going," Capuano said, according to the Statehouse News. "Every once and awhile you need to get out on the streets and get a little bloody when necessary."

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/145627-dem-lawmaker-on-labor-protests-get-a-little-bloody-when-necessary

Teachers Union Members may not be prone to violence, but Trade Union members certainly are.... as they have proved in the past.

In the end, this will only serve to hurt the Republican party. There are two main points that Republicans are not taking into consideration, and it will prove to be their downfall.

1) Independent voters - This move, by Walker, will undoubtedly garner support from the hard-core Republicans and those who vote for the right-wing party line. However, these are not the votes they need to win over. I have said it before, the ultra right-wing voters will ALWAYS vote Republican, not matter what. Sarah Palin could eat a live baby on national TV and they would still support her. But the independent votes are the ones they need to win an election. The actions in WI have sent a clear message to everyone, especially independents, that the Republican party does not listen to the people. They will push their social agendas, no matter how the public feels. The loss of independent voters may pose an problem for the GOP in 2012.

2) Voter turnout - No election has ever experienced 100% voter turnout, not a single one. Typically the angrier side has a higher turnout. In 2010, the Republican turnout dwarfed the Liberals. These type of events serve as a wake-up call to those who did not, and would not vote. If anything, Walker has given the liberal voters a reason to get out and vote . . . he has pushed them to make their voices heard in the next election. The Republican party was awakened in 2010, you can expect to see the same reaction from the Democratic party in 2012.

With no strong presidential candidate, the GOP faces an extremely difficult election in 2012. They will need more than their base supporters if they expect to win.

The wealthy who control our government want you to believe all the economic woes are because of unions and collective bargaining. (It began with Ronnie illegally firing the air traffic controllers, then private companies shipping union jobs overseas.) When the REAL PROBLEM is the GREED of the wealthy and the way they are controlling our government.

Did anyone think it was coincidence that farmers were losing their farms at the same time large corporations decided to get into the agriculture "field"? The rich didn't make enough money, so now they have instructed the government to "outlaw" collective bargaining. Soon enough there will be no more unions, no more workers rights; we will be trying to live on low wages, no benefits.

They think it is easier to control people who are poor and who have to live hand to mouth. What will happen to the government, who are funded by tax dollars earned by the middle class when the middle class is no more? They will continue to try to get funds from the common man, because the rich will not allow themselves to be taxed.

America is moving backwards, we will soon be just like a "third world" country; where the majority of the population will be living in or near poverty and the top 1-2% will be getting even wealthier from it. IF WE DO NOT STAND UP FOR OURSELVES AND DEMAND CHANGE, WE WILL BE CONDEMNING OURSELVES AND OUR CHILDREN TO A VERY DISMAL FUTURE.

THE AMERICAN DREAM WILL BECOME TO SURVIVE ONE DAY TO THE NEXT!

FREEDOM...thats what this bill is about...the freedom to work without a union extorting money from you...the freedom to donate money to the politicians you want to support or not to donate at all. Freedom for employers to compensate the best employees at a higher rate than the worst employees...freedom for workers to be individuals instead of a group subject to union bosses who make millions a year off their dues. This is a great day for America...Walker wont be recalled...he's gonna be elected president of the United States.

As dozens have remarked, "Teacher" (Msg. #1), NOBODY changed the rules. The Republicans simply used the rules to do what they wanted to do, while the Dems were out and actually breaking the law by avoiding their legislative duties. The Dems thought they could use parliamentary tactics to stop the vote and got out maneuvered. Too bad. Taking advantage of your opponents' stupidity is perfectly allowable.

I sure hope you're not a "Civics" teacher if you cannot grasp that. No wonder our kids are falling behind...

How is state representatives running away from their positions to prevent the democratic system from working any more democratic than what the Republicans did? The Republicans have been showing up for their jobs each day, while the absent representatives have tried to undermine the democratic system from working the way it is structured. The Democrats found a loophole to stop the measure from getting passed, and the Republicans responded by finding a loophole themselves. Hopefully everyone will show up to work now.

On Wisconsin! Coming from New Jersey, I always believed that unions conducted themselves like Lee J Cobb in On the Waterfront, which was actually filmed in "my fair state". And, in this case, I always believed right. On to the Battle of Trenton!

Well...well...well!

It appears that the true colors of the low life, scumbag Republicans and their teabagger cohorts has come shining through. We knew your lust for greed would overshadow politics at some point. Ronald Regan's twisted dream is finally coming to fruition. How dare the "common, middle class person" pursue better working conditions, safety in the workplace, a competitive wage and benefit package via collective bargaining. Those exclusive rights are reserved only for the affluent...what the hell was my Grandfather thinking when he joined that damn union back in the 1930s? Guess what you just accomplished...you'll see in November 2012 that this act of total mindless greed has sealed the fate of the Republican party as Barrack Obama will be re-elected for a second term and both houses of Congress will be in the rightful hands of "the people". May God have mercy on your tiny conservative souls!

Oldefarte-

If the Repubs were actually smarter than the Dems then why did it take them 3 weeks to figure it out? Or why not just threaten to use it to get the Dems back? Then they could "trick" them twice and also call a vote on the budget portion of the bill.

The ironic part is that the Repubs own stupidity will result in more wasted taxpayer money (legal defense costs) since they erroneously left some fiscal items in the bill which require a quorum to convene a vote, not to mention proper notice of intent to call a vote.

Exactly what laws were the Dems breaking? If they couldn't even be arrested if they went back to their homes in WI (remember the brilliant governor sending troopers to "knock on their doors" even though he also said they couldn't actually arrest them), they why do you think they were breaking the laws while in IL?

The sad part of all this is that if you think WI kids are falling behind educationally, just wait until the "good" teachers start to leave for better working conditions and higher take home pay.

Wisconsin is the canary in a mine for the rest of the US, much like Greece and Spain are for the EU.

No amount of "gimme gimme" whining, like they did in Greece and now Wisconsin, can prevent the eventual mathematical collapse from the insane debt load we've accrued.

If people want their diapers changed by Big Government, they need to realize they have to pay the babysitter. So if your diaper is soiled and you're wondering why it's not been changed, get off your baby-tushy and pay your taxes, or donate to government.

Otherwise, don't vote for candidates that use your own borrowed money to babysit you.

In this country the majority rules. Democrats and the unions in the minority (even though the Democrats run and hide). Next...

rapture2010 "The Wisconsin GOP screwed up."

Possibly in the long run (time will tell, and if the state's finances recover, he just might be a hero), but not procedurally, as even the missing Democratic Senators have acknowleged. Now they are returning with their tails between their legs. They should have taken some of the concessions offered by Walker when they had a chance.

It's interesting that the runaway Democrats were portrayed as 'smart' for using a political maneuver to avoid a vote, but the Republicans are considered 'underhanded' for using similar tactics. Nothing like 'fair and balanced' reporting.

By the way. Union public workers can still have the unions represent them, and negotiate for higher wages. Let's see how many of them 'voluntarily' choose to pay their union dues - I suspect that most will give themselves a nice raise and pocket the dues instead, and then say "Why didn't we do this earlier".

lol

PalinHypocrisy 'Roy Wilson: Instead of 'cherry picking' states, just look at the biggest problem states - California, New York and Illinois - All dominated by Democrats and public sector unions.' "Actually, Texas and California are running neck and neck as having the highest projected budget deficits for the entire US (estimates for our deficit - yes, I'm a Texan - are as high as $27 billion as opposed to the $15 billion earlier estimated). California has a projected $25.4 billion deficit."

If you are really from Texas, you know that their projected deficit is for TWO years, not one like in California. You would also know that the Texas Governor and Legislature has already proposed cutting SPENDING by the total amount needed to balance the budget - without touching the $9 Billion 'rainy day fund' they have on hand.

They are hardly in the same financial quagmire as California.

The budget crisis in Illinois is far worse than perhaps even California, with a budget shortfall of almost 50% of projected revenues (vs about 25% in California). The picture for Illinois is bleak, because their already heavy taxes are driving more and more businesses to other states, exascerbating their problems. As the 'Reverand' Wright siad, "Their chickens have come home to roost".

New York's deficit is more like $15 Billion and rising quickly.

Most big union-heavy states were able to protect their public employee unions with the $862 Billion 'stimulus' bill, but with the Republicans controlling the House now, the 'free ride' is over, and painful cuts will be needed.

Roy -

(time will tell, and if the state's finances recover, he just might be a hero)

No politician has ever been considered a "hero" for balancing a budget, the media simply moves on to a different issue.

You need to spend some time in reality. We do not live in a world where politicians get recognition for the good they do. We live in a world where the population (and media) focus on the next big issue they do not agree with. When something positive happens, you turn and say "well what about that other thing."

Have you ever recognized a Democrat for any good policy they passed? Even once, in your entire life? No . . . of course not. According to you, Dems are evil and will never do anything correct. Even now, when Obama talked about the bullying problem in school, not a single Repub can bring themselves to agree with him. They try to twist it around and make it negative. Don't pretend like that will ever change. People will always find something to fault in the party that is not their own.

Roy Wilson: Since you live in CA, let me then ask you when was the CA deficit balanced after Prop 13? Has it not gotten better worse? Prop 13 was a poison pill. People like you were so wrapped up in short term money back, you were willing to log jam the State Congress...

The reality of that poison pill froze the State government budget to 1978... Yes, CA is living on what it really earned 30 years back. AND YOU ARE PROUD!!! You are proud that you voted to bankrupt one fo the richest state in the Union. It is not simply about the deficit early, it was the interest on the delay, then came the deficits. Now, even if we stopped all service to CA resident, we can't balance our budget. AND YOU ARE PROUD!!! What more is that you're still leaching off of the State!!!!

Remember Jerry Brown was the reason why Meg Ryan and her husband moved to CA. In fact, Jerry Brown was more of fiscal conservative. The American Conservative later noted he was "much more of a fiscal conservative than Governor Reagan." His fiscal restraint resulted in one of the biggest budget surpluses in state history, roughly $5 billion. BS on Democrat fiscal laxity and Republican conservation is simply BS. REALITY SUCKS, HUH?

Bill Clinton was a hero for nearly balancing the budget, or at least that was what everyone paints him as for it.

I admire several thing Democrats and Republicans do. Here are a few.

I admire the fact that both Democrats and Republicans have used Air Force One to fly long distances to plant a tree on Earth Day, because that makes sense.

I admire the fact that their suits, shirts, coats, shoes, and probably even their socks and undies are tailor made and of the finest quality.

I admire the way they stick with their own little sides no matter how ludicrous the current idea is and no matter how much public opinion is against their view.

I admire how both change so much from the person who made promises on the campaign trail, to the heartless bastard/bitch (don't want to leave anyone out) they become on Capitol Hill.

There is a lot to admire. As far as truly good things. I would like to know just what GREAT thing either Republicans or Democrats have done in the last 20= years. And it better be Great. Not just good!

the republicans should want a recall vote to prove they were doing the will of the people .........that will show those democrats who the boss is.......recall now and let history record the victor

Let's get real! Wisconsin requires teachers to have a 4 year degree and the state prefers they have a masters. Teachers start at 24K. They average 44K... not that much at all! They were willing to take the hits on medical and pensions, but noooooo, the Gov just HAD to break the union's back? Pathetic. Those salaries are no more the cause nor the answer to Wisconsin's budget woes.

Public wages, unions, social security, medicare, the federal government, welfare, tax rates, the deficit, and just about every other "evil" the Republicans are crying about were just fine before we went into 2 unfunded unnecessary mishandled wars, gave 100s of billions to special war contractors, added medicaid without funding it, gave away trillions in tax-breaks for no good reason, then tanked our economy (our income) by being asleep at the switch and ignoring any regulations we did have.... but, yea, those f'ing teachers deserve what they get. Its all their fault. Its all the union's fault.

The BS around here is up to our neck at this point. The Republican hate machine is working well and working overtime... good thing their not unionized, huh? Would cost us a mint! LOL

FedupwithFedAs opposed to "quotes?" Sounds like you are sucking on sour grapes...so sorry you are such a sore loser and lost your precious ablity to FEED off the taxpayers anymore

I'm truly sorry you don't understand the proper use of citations and the English language in general. I will attempt to help you.

A quotation is the repetition of someone else's statement.

The following is an example:

Take a "VALIUM" and "go have your temper tantrum somewhere else!"

Quotes are very useful for showing that you are not the original source so that you have the "ablity [sic, recte ability]" to use outside sources.

timewonttell: the republicans should want a recall vote to prove they were doing the will of the people .........that will show those democrats who the boss is.......recall now and let history record the victor

I like this. I like this very much. If the republicans truly believe that they are doing what they were elected to do and that they are representing their constituents then they should welcome the recall effort.

That is a definite +1 from me and I hope +20 from each republican senator in Wisconsin as well as the governor.

Hannah-2721721: ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????//

Hannah: What is your question or comment? Or are you just adding a post?

I'm just wondering why I see a lot of "." and "?" posts. It seems to me that they fall under "no value" as far as reporting goes.

When corporate interests control government it is called fascism.

When unions control the government it's called socialism. See Cuba, U.S.S.R, North Korea, Viet Nam, etc... All such successful nations where the people have such great lives and freedoms. These are the trophies of the workers uniting.

Notice the great strides China has been making? they've been trying Capitalism and OMG their crawling out of third world status! Now if their people just had individual rights.

Oh it is financial alright.

It takes about $1.5 mil to fund a $50,000 per year income. Does WI fundthe retirements to that extent? NO! And that does not count benefits such as Medical.

To my researched knowledge, few if any Govertment retirements are fully funded therefore are a fraud because current income has to be used each year to pay the retirements and benefits. Not the way any instutiion or business can survive financially.

And each year the retirement deficit gets BIGGER.

thturd "Roy Wilson: Since you live in CA, let me then ask you when was the CA deficit balanced after Prop 13?"

I might be more sympathetic to your arguments except for one big GLARING problem with them. California has one of the highest OVERALL tax rates in the entire country, so it's not a matter of too little TAXES, but too muchSPENDING, so obviously any shortfall from Prop 13 has been made up for with other huge tax increases.

Step back and look at the forest, instead of just one tree.

Just the facts. Not the emotive opinions above.

Opinions are like azzholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. - The Dead Pool (1988), Home for the Holidays (1995).

Fact #1. The US Labor Unions of the Henry Ford Era were wiped out by the 1929-1939 Great Depression (25% Unemloyment). President FDR Nationalizes all US Industry. Institutes his successful Universal Health Care for all US Citizens by elminating the US Insurance Corporations from the Medical Profession. The US Insurance Corporations were started as a "Legit" Business of Italian Organized Crime, like arsonist Tommy the Torch selling "Business Insurance", "Homeowner's Insurance", "Life Insurance", etc.

Fact # 2. The US Labor Unions were taken over by "Italian Organized Crime" as a "Legit" Business like the US Insurance Corporations. And for familiarity took the names of the Henry Ford Era US Labor Unions. As documented by books and movies, "On the Water Front", "Last Exit to Brooklyn", "F.I.S.T.", "Jimmy Hoffa" (recent History), etc..

Fact # 3. During the Great Depression, President FDR (Democrat) Suspended All US Labor Union Activities, as suspected sympathizers to Facsist Mussolini (which they were, since Mussolini and Hitler got Italy and Germany out of the Great Depression (people literally starving to death) years before the US.), with the US Labor Unions actually being based on the National Socialist German Workers Party, including those tactics of the "Brown Shirts", SA, Sturmabteilung, as well as the Italian Squadristi, "Blackshirts".

Fact # 4. During WWII, after President FDR Suspended All US Labor Union Activities, during the US Military Liberation of Sicily and Italy. The US Labor Unions Striked to slow down the US Military Liberation of Sicily and Italy proving that they were part of "Italian Organized Crime" (the sympathizers to Mussolini, there were those that were opposed also). During the US Labor Union Strikes the Strikers became violent (beating people nearly to death, firebombing, etc.). So President FDR calls in the US Military Police (not National Guard) and authorizes the use of Deadly Force. The US Military Police in self defense machine gun the US Labor Union Strikers (BBC Documentary).

Fact # 5. During WWII there were many Catestrophic Accidents at US Ammunition Plants (whole Plants and Factories blowing up). The War Department conducts a Study to Decrease the Causes of these accidents. The Study recommends, maximum 8 hour days (before, some people were falling asleep while handling explosives, just to earn more money by working more hours), 40 to 60 hours work per week, required minimum number of hours sleep, numbers of fire extinguisher (or fire department), work place safety (including clothing, hearing protection, eye protection, women's hair, gloves, etc.), wages based on skills (minimum wage), included later were workers rights (including women's rights as more men volunteer or were draft to go to War), the Christians demanded Sunday off for Religious Worship (Sunday Off), the Jews demanded Friday and Saturday off for Religious Worship and got Saturday (Saturday Off), etc.. Since President FDR had previously Nationalized all US Industry, these were implemented throughout the entire US, something the US Labor Unions could not do. Reference: US War Department Study, WWII, obtained thru Freedom of Information Act.

Fact # 6. After WWII the Suspension of US Labor Union Activities was lifted, and using propaganda, they claimed that they were responsible for the things listed in the WWII War Department Study. Most US Citizens that worked in the Nationalized US Industry and the Nationwide Government Owned Government Operated (GOGO) and Government Owned Contractor Operated (GOCO) Plants and Factories of WWII ignored the propaganda of the US Labor Unions of Italian Organized Crime. This continued until the Italian Organized Crimes started using the same tactics as the National Socialist German Workers Party, as no Union Card, no Work. As depicted in movie, "Good" (2008), 1930s Germany with the US Labor Unions of Italian Organized Crime using their Political Influence in the same way.

Do the research, I did.

Will all of you stop censoring everyone else by collapsing their posts. That is National Socialist German Workers Party Tactics or USSR Tactics, hide (censor) information that you do not want others to know. And it does not matter if it is pro or against what is happening at Wisconsin.

Weldon Gebhard-1638908: It takes about $1.5 mil to fund a $50,000 per year income. Does WI fundthe retirements to that extent? NO! And that does not count benefits such as Medical.

Have you done the math on that?

$1,500,000 / $50,000 per year = 30 years at 0% interest on that $1,500,000.

Retirement benefits:

Minimum Retirement Age: 55 (50 for protectives)

Formula Benefit = Years of Service x Final Average Monthly Earnings x Formula Factor(s) x
Actuarial Reduction Factor for early retirement (if applicable)

Assuming a teacher starts at age 25 and goes until 55 = 30 years service

Current Final Average Monthly Earnings = ~$3865.00

Formula Factor = 1.6%

Retirement income = 30 x 3865 x 1.6% = $1855.20 per month retirement income

$22,262.40 per year

Average lifespan = 78.4 years

22262.4 x (78.4 - 55 = 23.4) = 520940.16

Total cost for that teacher: $520,940.16 total

Either your math, your assumptions, or both are wrong.

1500000 - 520940.16 = 979059.84

You were off by, on average, $979,059.84. That's enough for ~1.8 more total retirement packages.

By the way, Wisconsin's politicians factor is 2.0. That means that a Wisconsin politician with the same numbers in the other columns would make:

30 x 3865 x 2.0% = $2319 per month. That is $463.80 more per month. Now who is leeching off the public retirement packages?

RoyWilson: I absolutely agree with you that CA is one of the higher taxed state in the Union. On the other hand, why am I here? Why are my businesses still here? Why are you still here?

California provide one of the better higher education than any other states. CA has one of the greater and higher educated population in the Union. CA has one of the most diverse population than any other Union. CA has one of the best enviornment protection laws for consumer than any other states. CA has one of the most # parks, museums, diversity (scene), bbusinesss than any other states. CA has one of the best hwy/street system in USA. CA can bbe self sustaining if need to due to its abundant resources. CA alone can be one of the top GDP nation globally if it ever breaks from the Union. These are reasons why businesses are still in CA. These are reasons why Silicon Valley started in CA. That is why Hollywood is in CA. That is why agriculture flourish in CA. That is why CA is the greates wine production in the WORLD... Like I said, you are here right?

That is why things cost me more. As for you declaring spending too much. I don't have enough experience nor expertise to say that we spent too much. This I do know, 1983 Jerry left us with 5 Billion surplus. 1984-1999 Republican gov (George & Pete), 2000-2003 Democrat gov (Gray), 2003-2011 Republican gov (Arnold). After the Democratic gov left us with 5 Billion surplus we had ONE DEM gov for 2.5 years. while THREE REP gov for 23.5 years. So forgive me to not believe that from the perspective of CA RESIDENT, REPUBLICAN conservative and fiscally responsible leadership is a bunch of HOGWASH. If you are gonna blame the Demo Congress, don't go there, becuase CA was Demo for the past 30-50 years and it did not make any difference.

2 freakin things that broke CA. Prop 13 and Repub leadership over the past 25+ years. If you notice, things line up. It is not astrology! So for you to assume people have not step back, you need to broaden your scope a bit. Like I tell my team. Don't let me catch you ASSUME, because you make an ASS of ME & U.

LMarcT: You are the like the typically lobbyst. You only point out things that benefit your arguement. You don't care about who you run over or the education of others. You need to read up on Wiscon Teaching requirements and educator licensing guidelines before making grandio statements... Here is the link FYI: http://dpi.wi.gov/tepdl/vprosped.html

As for your claim of where WI teachers are over paid, I don't know your source. However a quick search shows that in 2006-2007, WI ranks 26th in pay for Average teacher nationally. However, they ranked 49th nationally for new teachers. So I think the data is drastically different from that of what you posted. Here is the info posted http://www.teachingtips.com/average-teacher-salaries/wisconsin/.

thturd "RoyWilson: I absolutely agree with you that CA is one of the higher taxed state in the Union. On the other hand, why am I here? Why are my businesses still here? Why are you still here?"

Actually, I'm in Costa Rica (since December), but will return to California in May (great place to live, by the way, and rated #1 in the World for having a 'sustainably green' economy). And I agree with you that California has a lot of resources and natural beauty, which makes it a nice place to live because of the diversity (natural as well as ethnic). Unfortunately, it's not such a great place to retire because of the high taxes, and it's not a very good place to start a business because of the high taxes and onerous regulations - which is one of the reasons why the unemployment rate is so high, and unlikely to improve much in the near future.

I am concerned about the budget deficits because they seem to be spiraling out of control, with no easy fix. Governor 'Arnold' made various attempts to 'fix' some of the perpetual budget problems in California, but his propositions failed due to heavy spending by the unions, so then he basically gave up trying and just tried to minimize the continuing damage caused by the 'tax & spend' liberal policies of the Democratic Legislature until the end of his term. Now it's Jerry Brown's turn, again, and it will be interesting to see how he reacts, but I don't see any realistic chance of changing the status quo. I have some fireman friends that are getting ready to retire on pensions of about 90% of their regular pay, at about age 50 (more power to them for making a good career decision), so the union pension obligations are going to be a huge drag on the economy of California for the foreseeable future. All I'm saying is that there are major financial upheavals coming for California, and it should be interesting to see how they are handled, now that the Democrats are in complete control. I see a major problem looming because the California voters just passed a proposition reaffirming and expanding the 2/3 requirement for tax and FEE increases (something the Democrats used to get around the Prop 13 by calling increases FEES instead of taxes). Now the Democrats only hope is for a big tax increase to cut the deficit, but I suspect the California voters will reject it, and "what then"?

That's why I say that it's going to get 'interesting' in California soon.

First off, grats. California has a low carbon footprint, and no money. Way to go! It's like one giant, smelly hippie.

Second, to all you democrats that are so sure that the Wisconsin voters just got screwed, these people ran on the platform of these changes. This is exactly what those people voted for. They got it. Good riddance to the unions. They don't care about the worker anymore then the government does, they just take taxes and call them "dues", except in most instances of a union, you get 0 in return for your dues. Get rid of them all.

PS - The whole country is going to get interesting soon, as soon as we are removed as the reserve currency for the world. Get ready to pay thousands of dollars for a loaf of bread. We're looking more an more like the Labour Party and Great Britain in the 60s and 70s everyday...

thturd

By the way, when I made the comment (great place to live, by the way, and rated #1 in the World for having a 'sustainably green' economy), I was talking about Costa Rica, not California.

One other point on the "green economy" attempts by Califonia, studies have shown that. for every 'green' job created, 2 traditional jobs are lost - primarily because of the high cost of 'green' technology. And all of the extra regulations on improving 'air quality' in California is silly and comes with a very high cost to California consumers. Here is a revelation;

When we spend lots of money on improving 'air quality' in California, it blows to the East in a matter of hours because of normal air flows (maybe Arizona will say thank you, but I doubt it - actually, they should say thank you for all of the jobs that moved there from California to get away from high taxes and regulations). And guess where the air we breathe comes from? Look at a map, and you will see that our air comes from 'CHINA', the World's largest emitter of carbon gases, who uses cheap, dirty coal fired plants to generate the power to fuel their growth.

Without "comprehensive" limits on pollution, all these regulations in California will accomplish nothing but transfer more jobs and wealth to other countries or states.

LMarcT - wondered where you've been, but obviously you've not learned how to research while you've been absent. Read this, it will blow your statement out of the water.....

http://politicosinamerica.blogspot.com/2011/03/2010-wisconsin-teacher-wages.html

I'd love to be making that kind of money, oh and I have a Master's too.

Looks like the UNION GOON SQUAD is finally going to get what is coming to them. I am tired of the BIG UNIONS steal from the Tax Payers while they lay-around. I have worked with and around unionized contractors in heavy commercial construction all my life. 90% of the time, it was always them that caused problems (Violence, Threats, Stealing, Drinking on the Job and not showing up). They would send their organizers around the job trying to create problems for the non union workers and generally slow the whole job down. Isn't it funny that they have to bus and pay people to protest for them? Apparently, they are either to lazy themselves to do it and apparently they have to bus these "paid protesters" a long way. Maybe they have to get them from out of STATE.

David-475776

WOW. You know your facts. Excellent post BTW.

Why not just put the issues of collective bargaining, pensions and annual salary increases to a vote for those of us who pays the bill to decide. Public employees, unions and the taxpayers seem to be a bad mix. It seems that the public employees are afraid of their employers, the tax payers and need a union. Just doesn't make sense.

I find it amazing that we are looking into the Muslims of this country for terrorism, yet the people in Madison that destroyed hundred of thousands of dollars worth of property and then tried to keep all our elected officials from going in the house assembly, and then when the vote went through they sent death threats to the republicans in office, yet this was ignored by the national news and called these homegrown terrorist hero's, is this messed up or not. And how dare Obama put his nose into our business when it was under Democrats rule that all collective bargaining was done away by Carter and then has been backed by all Presidents including Obama.

Maybe we need to reopen the hearings on homegrown radicals to include the unions and the Democrats. And if we are going to call out for a recall, maybe we should do the same for Obama. And where was all the Democrats outrage when Obama and the Democrats owned both the House and the Senate and ran through laws without any input from the Republicans. What's wrong, can not take the same treatment back that you dished out, and at least the Republicans did not run like a bunch of cowards. Now lets look at impeachment against the Senators that fled for Dereliction of Duties and also force them to give back all pay since they were not at work.

How quickly do you think this post will be collapsed?

*The public workers in D.C. do not have collective bargaining "rights".

*Michael Moore, you know the film maker who went to WI, to urge the unions to fight? Had so much to say in support of the unions? He refused to hire union workers for his crews when making his movies.

I'm actually surprized at this. He didn't hire union crews for his films? How did he get away with that? I didn't see or hear about any protesters at his mansion(s).

Aggie - Michael Moore is a big blowhard! He complains about the rich owning the wealth of the nation while never pointing the finger at himself as one of the rich. He's a complete hypocrite but the liberals think he actually speaks for them. He only speaks for his personal edification... just like Jesse Jackson and other mouthpieces that only do it for money.

From the article: AFL-CIO president Richard Trumka, leader of the country's largest labor federation, said the anti-union action in Wisconsin was a "corruption of democracy" that had already led to a backlash and created more solidarity in the labor movement.

Hier Trumka has a problem understanding democracy. It's only democracy when he wins but never when he loses. It's about time the unions sustain some real losses in their ability to control commerce. They are peaceful when they get what they want, at the cost of consumer prices. When they are forced into a course correction, they act like spoiled children and unleash some of the most vile hatred imaginable. And the liberals call the tea party bad. Unions are far worse, but since they own the democrat party, is it any surprise?

The government has labor laws in place that protect workers. I would love to see the Unions shrink until they are invisible.

Hannah-2721721

The Republicans were liars throughout the entire negotiations.

Considering how the defense team for the health care bill in courts has labeled the health care bill as a tax after the Democrats insisted it was not, then removed verbage that looked similar to "death panels", then added it back AFTER it passed, it sounds like you're just describing a politician in general. I don't see how anyone can think an entire party of lawyers and politicians DOESN'T lie. Most of us want them to spend within their means and quit growing gov't to the proportions that made other countries go broke (See Greece, Russia, etc for examples).

For those who actually think this is going to get Obama elected by a "landslide", you still haven't figured out the difference between state and federal government yet, even after that was a major factor in the 2010 elections? The comments and childish name calling by the left on this issue aren't going to accomplish what you think it's going to accomplish. You're only going to get nods from those who are already hard-line Democrat/liberals and the bigots who actually believe an entire group of people are evil and should be silenced (see historical information on slavery, separation of groups based on skin color or gender, etc for more information on what you sound like).

Wisconsin can pass or fail all the bills they want as long as their elected REPRESENTATIVES go and REPRESENT them and vote accordingly. It's this little thing called Democracy and is the result of actions of Democrats preceding the 2010 elections.

Turd, Seriously? Did you even read my post before you gave me on your b!tch slap? First of all, I got my numbers from the Wiscon teacher's site, the state site, and pheonix university. The numbers were created BEFORE this BS and they had no reason for distortion. As far as your comment about education and such... read my post again. I'm on your side you nut.

Willowbrook, Your site has numbers way over the average that most sites quote. Check out non-political sites for more believable numbers. Exactly what were you trying to blow out of the water?

wizard-2245918

@Bob Randall

"Sorry, but when government controlls corporations that is communism rather than fascism. If you would simply take the time to look at the sites I provided in my post above you would become aware of the difference between the two ideologies. These are safe well known sites. If you would like I can provide more links to sustain that position. Please take a little time and browse through the links previously provided. Have a pleasant evening."

You obviously didn't read your own sources. Under communism, the government takes over all businesses. Under fascism, the government Nationalizes some and tells the others what to do. In neither instance do the corporations run the government as you seem to believe.

Go back and read them again.

LMarcT - getting the numbers from a Teacher's site is your first mistake. They have their own agenda that they should get more than what they already get. It is common knowledge that WI Teachers are WELL PAID. (This was published on this site some time ago, guess you missed it.) And, oddly enough, the numbers are consistent with our averages here in OHIO, another State who has been run over the coals by greedy Public Sector Unions. Like I said, work on your research, especially if you are going to defend those who are in the extreme minority AND already have a well-established talking point platform. The rest of us already don't believe their talking points, you need to come up with something different that will hold water to aid their cause.

This public employee stuff has a lot of people seething..........

If they don't like the job anymore no one is telling them they have to keep doing it. They can quit at any time and take those jobs that their degrees would pay so much more for in the private sector. We live in a free country like that.

"AFL-CIO president Richard Trumka, leader of the country's largest labor federation, said the anti-union action in Wisconsin was a "corruption of democracy" that had already led to a backlash and created more solidarity in the labor movement."

Yeah, let's see how many of the union workers decide to voluntarily continue paying their union dues, and how many decide to keep that money for themselves (to more than offset the increased 'contributions' required for pay and health care). My guess is that about 90% of the union members will keep the money for themselves, rather than give it to the unions to squander. That will be the ultimate test of 'loyalty' to the unions.

Just in case anyone wonders why Obama and his cronies are so hot to support labor unions particularly government employee unions check out the contributions.

Leading Union Political Campaign Contributors
1990-2010

Democrats

Republicans

American Fed. of State, County, & Municipal Employees

$40,281,900

$547,700

Intel Brotherhood of Electrical Workers

29,705,600

679,000

National Education Association

27,679,300

2,005,200

Service Employees International Union

26,368,470

98,700

Communication Workers of America

26,305,500

125,300

Service Employees International Union

26,252,000

1,086,200

Laborers Union

25,734,000

2,138,000

American Federation of Teachers

25,682,800

200,000

United Auto Workers

25,082,200

182,700

Teamsters Union

24,926,400

1,822,000

Carpenters and Joiners Union

24,094,100

2,658,000

Machinists & Aerospace Workers Union

23,875,600

226,300

United Food and Commercial Workers Union

23,182,000

334,200

AFL-CIO

17,124,300

713,500

Sheet Metal Workers Union

16,347,200

342,800

Plumbers & Pipefitters Union

14,790,000

818,500

Operating Engineers Union

13,840,000

2,309,500

Airline Pilots Association

12,806,600

2,398,300

International Association of Firefighters

12,421,700

2,685,400

United Transportation Workers

11,807,000

1,459,300

Ironworkers Union

11,638,900

936,000

American Postal Workers Union

11,633,100

544,300

Nat'l Active & Retired Fed. Employees Association

8,135,400

2,294,600

Seafarers International Union

6,726,800

1,281,300

Source: Center for Responsive Politics, Washington , D.C.

Aggie, just depends on how you read it. I'm okay with unions defending themselves from the likes of the Koch brothers. Big business and Republicans don't give a rat's a$$ for middle class America, so the unions support someone who does. No conspiracy here.

And I guess your data explains why Republicans are breaking unions... no money? no support.

It is a myth that "big business" funds the Republicans. Data shows the opposite. In theory, it is to make the Dems look the other way.

Unions served their purpose long ago. Now they only institute laziness and chase work elsewhere.

LeMarcT...Something for you to read. Some info you might find enlightening...and this is only a small part of the entire article. Pretty much debunks all of the baloney the Dems. like to manufacture... The Unions and George Soros, individually, contribute WAY more to the Democrats, than the Koch Bros. do to the Republicans. As a matter of fact, their contribution was 1/3 of 1% of what the Dems/Obama spent. Furthermore, FYI, the Koch Brothers are not Republicans, they favor Libertarian and Independent views.

FROM AOL

"..... the real David Koch, who lives in New York, says he has never met or spoken to Gov. Walker.

The latest conspiracy theory being peddled is that the key to Gov. Walker's budget is a provision authorizing the state to sell power plants it owns, with Koch Industries supposedly scheming to buy them up cheap. Krugman wrote on Thursday that "there are enough suspicious minds out there that Koch Industries, owned by the billionaire brothers who are playing such a large role in Mr. Walker's anti-union push, felt compelled to issue a denial."

Never mind that the proposal has been around for years, that there is zero -- absolutely no -- evidence to support such a claim or that Koch Industries has said it has no interest in Wisconsin's power plants. For some, apparently, conspiracy theories trump reality.

What's really going on here is an attempt to silence people whose views liberals disagree with. After all, they don't have a problem with billionaires using their money to influence policies and public opinion when the money is being spent by the likes of George Soros, a left-winger who, among other things, helps fund the Think Progress site. "

Yosho

jrl,

One more example of a liberal comparing the opposition to hitler. the same claim the left uses to claim the right is so bad.

Never mind the fact that there is a similarity between what the GOP just did in Wisconsin and the event mentioned by witchking.

If you can mention an event where Dems tried to kill unions like this, you'll have a point. Otherwise it seems like whining about an appropriate comparison just because you don't like it.

LMarcT

Aggie, just depends on how you read it. I'm okay with unions defending themselves from the likes of the Koch brothers. Big business and Republicans don't give a rat's a$$ for middle class America, so the unions support someone who does. No conspiracy here.

And I guess your data explains why Republicans are breaking unions... no money? no support.

Are you old enough to remember when kids used to be able to get a job working as bean or berry pickers during the spring and summer to make a few $? That is all illegal now because of labor laws. The kids wanted the work but the law took it away from them. Now it is mostly mexicans doing the work. I cleaned toilets for a company duing high school for minimum wage, which was $1.60/hr at the time and was happy to have it. Later became an engineer for the same company.

Times have changed. Kids today don't really want to work because they have been spoiled by their parents more than the labor laws have forced them out. They would rather play video games and watch tv than work for $8.50/hr minimum wage. Yes, that is the minimum wage in Oregon. So who is doing it? People who can barely speak English, and some can't even do that.

Then they get a liberal arts degree that teaches them little that can be used in industry, and that helps them how? The only thing open for them is government. They chose their path. It isfine if a private business wants to employ them, but most won't because they have no skills to produce anything. That leaves them politics and government, most of which don't produce anything. They provide services. Unfortunately, unions got involves and helped them to rip off the public for those services by protecting the lazy. Usually the new employees are gung ho, but they are the first to go before those who are protected whether they do a good job or not. That is all unions are good for in the public sector - protecting dead wood.

You can deny it all you want but anyone who has to deal with government workers, like the DMV, SSI, transportion, environment, and just building a house on their own property know that union employees and government is a wall against getting things done in a reasonable, cost effective manner.

" if you can't compromise change the rules."...ha

sounds an awful lot like what brought us the healthcare reform scam and ponzi scheme

Vance Wilder

Have you done the math on that?

"$1,500,000 / $50,000 per year = 30 years at 0% interest on that $1,500,000.

Retirement benefits:

Current Final Average Monthly Earnings = ~$3865.00

Formula Factor = 1.6%

Retirement income = 30 x 3865 x 1.6% = $1855.20 per month retirement income

$22,262.40 per year

Average lifespan = 78.4 years

22262.4 x (78.4 - 55 = 23.4) = 520940.16

Total cost for that teacher: $520,940.16 total

Either your math, your assumptions, or both are wrong.

1500000 - 520940.16 = 979059.84."

Your math is wrong. The 1.5 million was wages, without benefits. the .52 mil is retirement that the Union employees, for the most part, don't pay for. You have to add the 2, not subtract the one and then say that the retirement is the only cost. Adding make the total ove 2 mil, then you have to add in the other benefits like medical insurance, usually at a much reduce rate out of the pocket for the retiree. Conservatively estimated at 8k/year. That is another 344k added to the total.

The average workiner in the private sector gets nothing close to this.

Bob Randall-1218482

You really don't read anything, do you? One more time, just for you. Don't bother replying. I won't see it.

Weldon Gebhard-1638908: It takes about $1.5 mil to fund a $50,000 per year income. Does WI fundthe retirements to that extent? NO! And that does not count benefits such as Medical.

No. It doesn't. It costs approximately a little over $500,000. I proved it... with sources.

Just because you don't want it to be true doesn't make it false. Your claims are not backed up with sources.

You have not backed anything up against me with a source. Your opinion is not fact.

Stop spitting in my face and try to say it's raining. Good bye and good riddance.

Redwing that is just a moronic statement.

Unions these days are nothing more then legalized mafia. They extort money from workers and union shops with the threat of pulling all employees and effectively crippling a business if they don't get their way, like a petulant child. In Oregon, if you happen to be a non union shop, you are automatically disqualified from getting any of the bigger, higher paying jobs. They are effectively saying to the middle class worker "You will give us some of your money, or I will make it so you can't earn any money.". That is extortion. There is no difference between this and a thug going into a store and offering "protection" for a fee. Not to mention that unions breed laziness and stifle innovation. So you have new and exciting ideas? Well, I wish I could pay you more for that, but that guy over there stuck in the stone age with his technique taking a nap has been here longer, and if I pay you more, I have to pay him more. That sounds fair. Get rid of the unions. They served their purpose long ago. Now they are no better then the "big business" you all rail against like the gates of hell themselves cracking open. They tax people, call it "dues", and normally do nothing in return. Then, when they don't get their way, they call for a strike. Now, they don't CARE that your family is starving while you're not getting paid. They still are. They'll strike till the end of time if they have to. They don't care about you, and haven't for decades now. Bust them all.

Well, I see my comment was collapsed. I can say that I meant no ill regards to anyone specifically, I merely stated my opinion as I see it in post #1.141.

I can only warn of what I think are upcoming events. Collapsing a post seems like censorship to me, especially if there is no malice or foul language in it.

It is curious that Bev and Feist haven't chimed in on this thread, and that they never respond to inqueries posted on other threads. Is it because they finally have nothing to say, or is it because they can't block the opinions of everyone who challenge them? Very curious.

Some women just can't handle not having the first word and don't hang around for the last. I have seen multiple times where they are first to post, kind of like laying in wait. But they rarely respond afterward. Seems a bit selfish.

And the bulk of the rest of the leftists here are great at making one liners on subjects that they have no clue about, but when challenged to back up their words they are nowhere to be found. Maybe like Bev and Feisty they have blocked out anyone who disagrees with them because they only want to be heard, even if their noise is meaningless to those who have the ability to listen.

So sad, and they can vote.

Do you think we can get Gov. Walker to join the NFL?

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/NFL-Players-Association-union-decertifies-labor-talks-owners-031111

Aggie-345886

In adding them up, it came to about $500 Million from unions for the Democrats, and all we hear from the media is how terrible it was that Karl Rove was able to raise $38 Million for Republicans.

By the way, you left out the political contributions by trial lawyers associations, which probably adds another $100 Million to Democrats to prevent tort reform.

Actually, the Republican Senators in Wisconsin blew it by voting 18 - 1 to pass the bill.

They should have passed the bill by a vote of 10 in favor, 9 opposed (the most vulnerable ones).

Then the onus would have been on the Democrats for not having at least 2 members present to 'defeat' the bill.

lol

Well, well, well.

Now the union members will get to VOLUNTARILY decide whether to continue paying union dues and having their unions represent them, instead of being forced to by 'union rules'. I wonderr how many will decide that the union dues are worth the money they pay?

The ultimate test of "Democracy in action".

Bosslimo:

Well, I see my comment was collapsed. I can say that I meant no ill regards to anyone specifically, I merely stated my opinion as I see it in post #1.141.

I can only warn of what I think are upcoming events. Collapsing a post seems like censorship to me, especially if there is no malice or foul language in it.

Don't worry. Tyler is usually very good at restoring comments that have been collapsed unfairly. I believe there is a link that you can click on to facilitate this as well.

I looked at your collapsed post. I agree with you, it was not collapsed fairly. The only thing you did was state non-insulting opinion. The only fact you stated was the widely proven fact that there were 160 GOP amendments to the HCR bill, so I understand why no citation was given. And besides, if citations were required for "factual" statements then there would probably be less than half of the new comments on Newsvine as there are now.

As far as your "irk" level: I suggest using the ignore option within Newsvine. It is very useful. Those that use opinion as a citation for their "facts" are, in my opinion, not worth bothering with.

You will find plenty of debaters on both sides of an argument that do very well separating opinion from fact and provide sources for their stated facts either upon request or included in the original post.

Trust me, you will not be "losing out" by seeing personally collapsed comments... chances are those comments have the same factual integrity as the ones that caused you to ignore them.

So true, Roy. And we lets not forget to toss in the pot, the Hollywood million/billionaires.

Bob Randall:

I'm old enough to remember the minimum wage at 50 cents an hour. And I worked from the day I turned 16 (babysat before that) until I retired a short while ago. And no one give me any grief about accepting SS, taking public funds, blah, blah, blah....I contributed into that for over 50 years besides paying for public schools and services, and what I am getting back is a pittance compared to the salaries and benefits these teachers want. I have to buy my own supplemental health insurance. And no cushy retirement plan either. And now, I (we) will get to pay through the nose to cover some people who could well afford health insurance, but don't see it as a priority. They prefer to roll the dice. They'd rather spend their money on creature comforts and recreation. And, we get to pay for illegals health care too....just like we are now, only more.

Kids that come out of college ill prepared to work in industry, business, private enterprise, it's their own fault and parents can share the blame. Can't blame "big business". Employers aren't going to hire a graduate in Romance Languages or P.E. over a graduate in business management, accounting, or economics, technology, Human Resources, etc.

Teaching is a noble profession. However the unions protect sub-par teachers, demand higher pay, better benefits, retirement...at taxpayer expense. Without that circle of protection of the union, if they were privately employed, they would be expected to produce results, or would be fired.

And I totally agree. Kids now days are lazy, and so many parents are just content having the kids keep quiet and do their own thing. No challenging them to apply themselves to something other than texting, Facebook, Ipod, TV... Heck, so many kids can't even SPELL a whole word anymore.."IMHO". Do U get what I'm saying? Then they wonder Y they can't get a decent grade.

Just look at the students from parochial and private schools and the success of their students both academically and socially. Reason? Teachers are expected to perform or their contract won't be renewed. No union to shield them. Graduates of parochial and private schools have around 85-90% of their Senors well prepared and heading for college. Most parochial/private schools are not for "rich kids". Their parents make the sacrifice to insure their children are educated both academically and socially. All of these schools also have scholarship programs. Not every kid in those schools is an Einstein or a pillar of society, or a success story, but odds are they still come out better for having had that education.

Some unions do NOTHING for the greater good...only those who pay them dues.

Bosslimo said:

This happens when you think your vote won't matter. You must vote, every time without exception. It is one of the true rights you have left.

You got the right to bear arms? Not without a permit and regulations

Not true, only handguns require permits, and most of the regulations are safety minded and common sense.

You got freedom of speech? Not without being censored

Not true, those most likely to censor, oddly enough, are Liberals

Pick a right, any right. You are limited, regulated, or just don't qualify

The only right you have is voting and you still must be a citizen.

And why would you want non-citizens voting on American issues? Not their place to do so, and I would put money on the table there isn't another country in the world that allows non-citizens to vote on their countries issues!

GimDan

Just as the dem did for the health care bill.... Only diff is that the Rep did not run away like little bitches....

You irk me. A debate, with every republican's amendment in it to water it down, for a solid year or more, was voted on. This one was literally crammed down People's throat.

Not true, they used the procedures already in place to get back on track, no rules were broken. The poster was absolutely correct, the Dems were NOT DOING THEIR JOB! The Republicans did not run away when they were fighting not to pass Obamacare, and yes they did water it down, THANK GOD! It is already having a tremendous negative effect on the ability of Employers to continue to offer Health care. It needs to be repealed ASAP. The only logical course is to do what we should have done in the first place. Work on ONLY THOSE THINGS THAT NEEDED REFORMED, not create a system that will cause millions to lose their Insurance.

Regardless of whether or not you oppose unions, the State of Wisconsin just took one of your rights away... and, like losing the olympics, you cheer.

Also not true, Collective Bargaining is NOT A RIGHT!

RN in Philly

Oh dear, lots of people who have grown quite used to having the taxpayer pay their bills for them are very upset. No offense, but have you considered forming a drum circle? Dress in costumes? It doesn't matter if you have the votes, so long as you make lots of noise.

Already thought of, it's called the TEA Party.

REALLY, REALLY, REALLY NOT TRUE, this is about the Union toadies who came to WI, tore up the Capitol to the tune of millions!

Reminds me of Silence of the Lambs. The guy hanging in the air peeling his skin off and feeding to the dog... and laughing, having a good time with it.

What is your point here, that is just nasty!

Boss, Your post had good reason to be collapsed. Pretty much, you was grenade trolling, with offensive talking points. Your opinions must keep you from having many friends. I wouldn't hang around you even if you gave me money. I feel sorry for someone who would see this situation like you do. But not really, because it is not hard for you to get out there and learn more, thereby having the opportunity to adjust your opinion.

But you should be happy, since I reposted your collapsed post, it'll probably get collapsed as well since it is just as bad the second time around as the first.

All I hear is a bunch of crying. For the first two years all I saw and heard was how Obama, Reed and Pelosi jammed bills through without regards to the republicans or consideration for the American people. Yet never did I see a republican run from office, but now that the tables are turned all I see is violence, death threats, and forcefully trying to stop elected officials from doing their jobs.

For all the screaming about the radical Tea Party (which I am not one) I find that now maybe we should be watching the Democrats more closely because they have shown that they are far more insidious and violent then any Tea Party member out there.

And for once I can say thanks to the person watching this site for allowing all sides to let their opinions be known.

Vance, sorry that you got your panties twisted in a bunch. I am pretty good at math, being an engineer, but you go ahead and believe you are right. No one spit in your face, other than possibly you.

Angie, I couldn't agree more. Enjoy retirement.

Unions will be the death of all industry, because they punish those who would innovate and praise those who have been there the longest and pay their dues. Seniority shouldn't EVER determine someone's pay rate, unless 2 people are of the same skill level and job title. It's terrible.

Aggie

when you look further into what teachers unions "get" you find that they dictate stupid shyte like what color rooms are , how far away a copier can be placed , it goes to all kinds of lengths to get the most moronic shyte "their way" and costs schools millions to cater to their ignorant requests.

whereas they have them all over the coubtry...google search "new york city school rubber rooms" for a taste of the stupidity of teachers and teachers unions

oh..and of course there is "Waiting for Superman"

Vance

"Don't worry. Tyler is usually very good at restoring comments that have been collapsed unfairly"

no he isn't ...#1.88 is a prime example...nice try with the azz kissing but it is not very impressive

Here are a couple points about hypocracy regarding to Republicans and Conservatives;

1. They believe the people and employers have the right to bargain for raises and bonuses no matter their level or positions. However when it comes to teachers and other public union workers they believe they don't have the right to bargain nor the right to receive increase above the rate of inflation... so they only deserve 1% increase?

2. There is a thing called contract. Contract is negotiated and agreed by both parties. Generally it is a win-win otherwise there would be no contract. However, it appears that certain people believe that the employer have the right to break contracts, but employees don't have the right to complaint nor voice their concerns.

3. There is also a notion that teachers and public union is against the concept of self motivation (or capitalism). If employees have problems with their pay and their year end review, they see the supervisors, but then the supervisors don't have any rights to adjust... So where is the incentives in this new proposed system??? There is no built in incentive or motivation vs previous. In fact this is probably more repressive (more communism).

4. Why selective unions? If this is about state employees, then shouldn't all state employees be included?

5. Why attach a Energy selloff bill inside a bill aimed at the Union???? One would think that both are important issues that should stand by themselves. Given the majority vs minority party count, I don't see why the two bills will fall short of the passing. I fail to see the connection between the bills (generally there's negotiation - give and take). However, there is none here. SO WHY BURY THE ENERGY BILL????

What is disgusting is that the Republicans and Conservatives are still not admitting the real agenda...
a. sell off public interest and ownership to private interests CHEAP.
b. kill off future campaign fund raising interests while increasing own campaign donations (this is common with all politician, however not at this degree)
c. the private corporations will return the favor to put the politicians into presential spot light

ultimately, Wisconson voters and non-voters got who they voted for...

1. I've never had a job where I get to "bargain for a raise". I get called in, I get told that I'm up for a raise, I fill out some paperwork, and they give it to me. Period.

2. A contract is entered into by choice. Unions FORCE companies and employees to join, or they find themselves barred from getting work. That isn't a choice, that's give us some of your money or don't work.

3. The incentive in this situation is to do your job right or get fired. Just as it should be. Just like it is for everyone else. You are no more special then anyone else. Period. No more crappy teachers just passing a kid who can't read or write on so that they don't have to deal with them anymore.

4. This I agree with. All unions should go, and I have a feeling this was just testing the waters. I would assume there are more to come.

5. Why would they separate 2 bills they knew they were going to pass? To take more time? To spend more money to make a decision that is already a forgone conclusion? This was yet another campaign promise he made, to streamline government, to sell off their energy to close the budget gap, and to deal with the out of control unions.

I do so love that people are still perpetuating the lie of the Koch Brothers having something to do with this, "selling off public interests blah blah blah". This was planned well before he even won the position. You didn't like it, you should have voted.

How are they killing off campaign contributions? By making it so Union members don't have to pay dues, since they are 8 of the top 10 contributors to the Democrats? So you admit that when they aren't FORCED to give up part of their money, Union members won't pay dues? Where's your solidarity now?

Lastly, I hate to break it to you, but every politician is bought and sold by someone. Democrats are bought and sold by the Unions, as proven by the Flighty 14 and them running like their AFL-CIO masters demanded. The Republicans are bought by big business. No one's side is suddenly clear in all of this. For you to allude to such stupidity shows what a sheep you are.

PS - Stop with the "We didn't vote so that's why you won" crap. If that's so true, then stop bitching about what's happening, seeing as you gave up your right to have any say.

Vance

"Don't worry. Tyler is usually very good at restoring comments that have been collapsed unfairly"

no he isn't ...#1.88 is a prime example...nice try with the azz kissing but it is not very impressive

Nowhere does it say that one must agree with the republicans in order to post on Newsvine

Your prime example is a prime example of an opinion that differs from your own.

I don't ass kiss. I attempt to tell the truth and back it up with sources.

1. Bull, everyone negotiate their pay or their bonus or their benefit. The only way someone who don't negotiatie is because it is a bid contract or pre set... if people say they don't it is BS.

2. Duh! Of course you need to join union if you want to enjoy the benefit of the union and the contract. If you are in licensed union, then yout must meet particular criteria. If you are in the teaching, then you must have particular license and level of education... If you don't have the criteria then you can go find a school that don't require such. There are plenty of jobs for those in private institution. Why are you being a cry baby about it. I thought it is about capitalism.

3. So how is the new bill change??? It is still same-o-same-o. Admit it, it is about getting back at the Unions that did not support Walker. In addition, it is about squeezing the Koch and John Birch Society and the Conservatives for more campaign $.. It is about kick backs. Kinda wierd that you can't even admit that.

4. You obviously missed the point about selective punishements and selective rewards. It was never about level playing field. It is all about playing on Walker's field.

5. Why seperate? Are you kidding me? If the 2 issues are totally different then they should be seperated. Wisconson passed over 40 bills. So should all 40 bills be on the ONE LARGE BILL? What lunacy... Again, hypocracy to the hilt. Conservatives tries to pass over 12 different bils to reverse "Obamacare" and 7 different bills to negate "Prop 8" in CA. Why not put them on ONE bill????

In the last election 70% of the funding came from corporation & 30% came from unions. By eliminating the 30%, the Republicans will be able to eliminate major campaign source to Democratic midterm candidates. Thus ensure Republican wins... It is much cheaper in lobbying methods. One can already see corporate funding change after the election. If you care to look, because many of the States already were able to hog tie the Unions for the next round of election.

This is what I wrote "ultimately, Wisconson voters and non-voters got who they voted for..." . How is that whinning? It is about the result reflecting the mood of the voters and the non-voters. You REALLY need to quote people correctly. It is called reading, otherwise it is called "ASSUME", you make an ASS out of ME and U!!!

SPIN, SPIN, SPIN... One would figure you have enough wool to cover yourselves up (wolves in sheeps clothing)... You wanna wager that the majority of the next election will be go Democratic way during the next Wisconson election?

No one outside of unions bargains for raises, contract or not, unless you are in middle or upper management. Then you have to bargain a little, but most of the time, they already know exactly what they're going to give you. They just low ball you until you settle where they wanted you in the first place.

You just admitted there was no choice in entering the contract with a union if you want to even bid on jobs. That's extortion. Telling someone that they can't work unless you give them money is extortion. Plain and simple. The fact that you seem to see 0 problem with it, shows what a braindead union shill you are.

If you don't already know that union members are VERY hard to get rid of, then you're too far gone in your own delusion to even explain it to. Teachers are a prime example of this. There are teachers out there who are so terrible at their jobs that they are literally destroying the futures of children, yet they are still on staff, because the unions protect them. Just because you want the ability to do a sh!tty job with no repercussions doesn't mean it's right.

Apparently you need to take a vocabulary class and learn what stream line means. It definitely doesn't mean wasting tax payer money to be in session longer then they have to when they KNOW they're going to pass a bunch of bills. Should they package 40 together? If they know they were gonna pass all 40 separately anyways, yes. Yes they should.

In the last election, 8 of the top 10 contributors to the DNC were unions, including the AFL-CIO. Furthermore.....let's see how that money is split, even though surely there must be Republican members of the unions....

Intl Brotherhood of Electrical Workers$2,978,873$2,928,973$51,600Machinists/Aerospace Workers Union$2,007,500$1,973,500$34,000Communications Workers of America$1,826,400$1,789,900$33,000United Auto Workers$1,640,000$1,638,000$1,000United Steelworkers$1,250,000$1,250,000$0Boilermakers Union$958,574$914,574$44,000United Mine Workers of America$380,200$378,200$2,000Utility Workers Union of America$151,500$150,500$0Communications Workers Local 13000Communications Workers of America$97,500$97,500$0Glass Molders Pottery Plastics Workers$14,500$14,500$0IBEW Local 98Intl Brotherhood of Electrical Workers$11,500$11,500$0Boilermakers Union Local 169Boilermakers Union$7,000$7,000$0UNITE HERE/PhiladelphiaUNITE HERE$6,000$6,000$0United Electrical Radio Machine Workers$4,172$3,922$0Boilermakers Union Local 85Boilermakers Union$4,000$4,000$0IBEW Local 1Intl Brotherhood of Electrical Workers$2,000$0$2,000IBEW Local 349Intl Brotherhood of Electrical Workers$1,000$0$1,000Machinists/Aerospace Workers Local 837Machinists/Aerospace Workers Union$1,000$1,000$0

http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/industry.php?txt=P02&cycle=2010

First number is total, second is dems, third is republicans......guess we know who your masters are.

Isn't the point that Republicans are trying to destroy Unions because they usually favor the Democratic party?

Why are you arguing such a stupid point?

We've already established you haven't read the bill, Gharms!

Why do you keep evading my questions? I've answered yours.

Nobody has ever said that somebody can't work unless they pay a Union. EVER.

I answered your questions. Just more proof there are terrible teachers out there I guess, seeing as you are unable to read apparently. Perhaps if you weren't stalking me through 18 different forums, you'd find where I answered your stupid questions.

Riiiiiight!

Let's try again!

We are also talking about the "no-bid" sale of power companies to private industry without legislative process or overview!

We are also talking about the raping of the relief systems that are in place to help our poorest. i.e. reduced lunches, reduced bus passes, and reduced cost for tutoring programs.

We are also talking about cutting the funding for College access programs.

The list is huge.

Gharms, like I said, please READ the BILL!

Do you believe these measures a good plan?

...seriously Get Real....I'm starting to think you have a mental deficiency or something. I'll say this again slowly for you. I answer your questions. You no able to read answers. You need read class. Sorry, I'm not fluent in Zombie Democrat, but I think that should do.

Are you in favor of cutting the funding for College access programs?

YES or NO?

Let me ask YOU something since you're just gonna keep asking the same 4 stupid questions......if you think these cuts are bad, where SHOULD they cut this money from?

If 400 people in the United States make more money than 150,000,000 combined, I think they should pay more in taxes. BUT I believe we ALL need to pay more in taxes and we need to decrease the number of administrative positions in government and in school districts. I believe we need to decrease R&D in the education system. We need to change our trade policies which stunt our State's and our nation's ability to compete in the world market. Our society needs to change it's entire value system to something more real. i.e. Back to 10 channels on your TV. No TV during the week. If you're bored get a damn book at the library! I could go on and on.

Do you disagree with my list?

I won't even start on Wall Street, The insurance industry, and the Financial industry. That would make me vomit and I need to go to bed.

Get real,

BUT I believe we ALL need to pay more in taxes

This is the only thing I disagree with. All your other points make good sense up to the point about the TV.

Who are the Koch brothers?

So basically, we need to punish those that have made something more of themselves then you or I have. We need to make it known that if you are successful, there are penalties. That seems fair.....considering they already pay WAY more in taxes then everyone else does.As a matter of fact, the top 5% of earners in America pay almost 60% of the taxes, at a rate of 21ish%. Where as the rest of the 95% only pay 40% of the taxes at a rate of 0-8%. You really need to get over the whole "Rich people are the devil and deserve to be punished" chip you liberals seem to have on your shoulders.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

Fred Koch, a really smart engineer, founded the Koch Industry which work on better oil refining. Unfortunately spurned by the entrenched OIL industry (irony), his invention was highly prized and paid by the USSR. Yes, Communist USSR, paid him handsomely. Fred had no problem being paid by Communists in HUGE AMOUNT.

Later Fred Koch turned on the USSR and their leadership when USSR became more independent in their refineries and their scientists. After returning from one of the paid Russian trip, Fred became a staunch anti communists. No real reasons were found for the sudden reversal in his relationship to the Kremlins.

Charles and David Koch bought out the interests from their brothers. Their accumulation of assets were made when they chose to reinvest back into the business as business tax rule became lax. In another words, as other owners pull their $ out of their businesses due to Regan tax cut, they kept reinvesting as if the tax cut was not there!!!! Over 10 years, their business grew 100 times larger.

Just Koch Industry is responsible for;
5.7million in political contribution (2005-2008)
37 million in fossil fuel Lobbysts (2005-2008)
58 million in groups that oppose and/or doubt GLOBAL WARmING. Koch Industry is the single and largest contributor against Global Warming.
Unknow millions in conservative research and think tanks.

Remember, this is just the Koch Industry, not the brothers themselves (or family). Remember, they are also responsible for the revival of underground society such as the John Birch Society (which was denouced by the Republicans of the 60s and 70s).

punish? I am curious who are we punishing?

Gov Walker just raided Wisconson's municipal funds. The bill gave his office control over Public Energy Rights and Properties. These are paid for by Tax payers of Wisconson and other states.

If you are for individual rights, then where are the rights to local muni so that they can operate as they see fit? How is it that an executive can take tax $ and redistribute them to corporations as he sees fit.

Gharms: you ask the right question, but you never seem to question your own to start.

....lots of people were paid by communists.....it's called Capitalism. Capitalists don't pick and choose who they make money from. They'll get it where they can take it from. To elude to the fact that he's a communist because he did business with communists is reaching.

FYI, the no bid contracts on power, etc.. were part of his platform when he ran. Once again, I pose to you, is this not what people voted for? I think the REAL problem you all have with this is that something is actually getting done, and not by your side, which is going to have Wisconsin almost 4 billion in debt in 3 months at the next biennial. If something didn't change, the rest of the country would be paying for the democrat policies that led Wisconsin to the disaster it's currently in.

Furthermore, when is the last time you've known a government, federal, state or local, that could live within it's own means. Allowing them to raise taxes allows for discretionary spending, which never goes a planned, which leads to more taxing. By neutering the municipal governments' ability to raise taxes, they are forced to live within the means given to them by the state government.

Also, considering the DEBACLE that is Illinois right now, lowering your corporate tax rates and taxes on the rich are going to draw business from Illinois to Wisconsin. It's already started.

No one likes taking drastic measures to correct a ship that's going ashore. But if you don't make tiny course corrections over time, the last option is to spin the rudder and pray you miss the shoals. That's about as cut and dry as you can make it about Wisconsin. Whoever has been asleep at the wheel for the last.....say 15 to 20 years......are the ones you should be blaming for this drastic and sudden course correction.

PS - As long as we see returns on the money like we saw with TARP, CEOs can spend the money we give them any way they want.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-10-20/bank-bailout-returns-8-2-beating-treasury-yields.html

Gharms: if the ship is going ashore, then how is dumping Union overboard and refilling it with the equal Corporate weight help? In another words, Walker gave xx tax breaks and loopholes to corporations then turn to the Unions and try to make the same amount. Now, the funny thing is that he didn't even cut the budget. He simply eliminated negotiation power of the Union (which has no monetary), but not addressing the deficit, and own the rights to sell off taxpayer paid for Public Utilities....

Who is he trying to fool????

Why are you so upset or sensetive about the reference with Fred Koch being paid by the Communist. It is a fact. Is it in your blood that the world "Communist" will get you riled up??? Anyways, it was ironic, becuase the Koch brothers is treating the people just as how the Oil Industry (in America) treated Fred Koch.... You obviously don't get it.

Say you're trying to bring jobs back to a state who's unemployment is on the high side of the average. Do you force them to pay higher labor union wages for lazy union workers, or do you dump union worker entitlements, and give them tax breaks as incentive to build factories and provied jobs. This isn't that hard to figure out.

PS - He wasn't trying to fool anyone. I love how when people run on a platform and make good on campaign promises, you make assumptions that people were duped. Surely it isn't because they liked those ideas and disliked the mire Democrats got them into. Someone must have cheated!

Just the same as Odumbocare was rammed through! ALL RIGHT!!! Payback time.

Linda- Repugs had input options in that situation. They couldnt play nice in the sandbox. Too bad if your still stuck in that rut!

If your all so anti union how come you aren't complaining that the police & firefighters get to keep their Unions? You should be demanding that those unions be dissolved too

GET-ER-DONE, BABY! love that!

This is absurd. They are completely ignoring the rights of their constituents.

Looks like the Koch Brothers have installed a "dictatorship of the Petroletariat" in Wisconsin.

Truth is they had the votes... they gave the Dems plenty of time to come back and negotiate something but they refused... so the business of Wisconsin must go on... with or without the dems.

This move PROVES that =they were all about BUSTING unions, not about the budget.

And in other news....the AP has just called Wisconsin for Obama in 2012.

These coments are all laughable!! Wine, cry, pi$$ and moan!!! LOL Liberals are so funny..... world ending in a blaze of fire!! Gotta luv politics!! I didn't get my way, shoulda voted huh?

L

All this proves is that they were as patient as any body of gov. could possibly be. Did you expect them to just sit around and wait for ever. Majority IS majority and Minority is well......um Minority!

@light in the end

Sounds like your side the past 2 years! Enjoy your victory while it lasts! You'll be crying again in 2012!

@Witchking - Hopefully those Unions are next, because we all know in most states it is those two Unions that are the biggest drain on the budget.

0bama won't win Wisconsin and there will more Democrat Senators recalled in Wis. than Republican ones - if there are any recalled. Once the 0bama Chicago ground troops go home you will find that the Gov and Senators did the will of the people. You liberals here are funny.

Good job WI! A good start.

If only we could all be so lucky to have the Dems leave our states.

I guess Wisconsin just had their last free election in 2010.