The Progressives in Wisconsin lost at the ballot box so now the union thugs are trying protest tactics. Protest all you like but Walker did the right thing and more states need to follow suit.

@Bill--still going on about "union thugs"? So you admit that Walker was not trying to balance the budget but was trying to crush the union?

Of course this was ALWAYS about specific unions and not balancing budgets. If it was only about budgets ALL public sector unions would have been included, including firefighters and police.

I would insult the intelligence of teabaggers who think that only a couple unions are to the problem, but they are actually proud of their ignorance.

If all the unemployed people protesting spent as much time trying to find work, any kind of work, as they are spending on their protesting they could find jobs in no time.

Spongers of the worst kind. No sense of personal responsibility. Don't worry, your union brothers will take care of you.

True job security is found in self-employment, not living off the gov't teat.

You still have collective bargaining rights (now it is in-line with COLA), still have healthcare benefits, still have your pension and most importantly, YOU STILL HAVE A JOB!!!

So what EXACTLY is the problem??

And what makes you think these thousands are unemployed? Why in the heck would you call these taxpaying citizens "spongers" ? Would you say the same about firefighters and cops who were exempted from this rule (specifically because the governor knew full well people like you would actually understand what they do and not support busting their rights.) Taxpayers like you who whine about government ineffectiveness and waste and then never want to actually pay for antyhing, even educating your own CHILDREN for gosh sakes, are what makes this idiocy possible. No thinking voter believed attacking working people was what they voted for under the guise of "fiscal responsibility." Let the recalls begin.

The State of Wisconsin, and much of the Nation, now sees the Party of No and Teapublicons for what they are: anti-middle class, financial terrorists.

The Middle Class is finally waking up from its dogmatic slumbers and taking on the Right-wing-sponsored plutocratic oligarchy that this country has become.

Party of No, where are the jobs?

You have been spending all of your elected time waging war on women, Muslims, teachers, the Middle Class, etc., etc., etc.

Shameful and unpatriotic, to say the least.

In Nov., you had an election and you voted. Are we to believe that you screwed up your own election? Are we to believe that you need 3 out of 5 to get it right? Are we to believe that even if you get a recall, you'll get it right this time? How many elections do you folks want? The rest of the country is waiting until 2012, but I expect that's just too long for you? IF, IF, IF, there are recalls there for both sides, it just may not work out like you want. What then, another election? You'd be well advised to save your monies until 2012 and try to get it right this time? You elected the people in office. Live with it like everyone else is.

It is time for the workers of America to UNITE IN A NATIONAL WORK STOPPAGE!!!! It is time to take our country back from THE RICH FAT FUX running the show! ENOUGH OF THE RICH PIGS!!!!!!!!!!!! TAKE DOWN WALL STREET and ALL the RICH PIGS WITH THEM!! Blue collar workers and laborers built this country and now the RICH PIGS are taking a SH!T in our faces! STAND UP AND FIGHT BACK!!!!!!!!

@norm---and you know the people protesting are all unemployed? following your logic the same thing must be true about tea party protestors. got a problem with them too?

Personally - im completely indiffernt to the 'stripping of union rights' - as a more accurate statement is - public union employees now have the same (actually a little more) rights than private union employees. Im not a fan of Unions- every union ive been involved with - 3 to be exact - did nothing but take my money, and protect poor workers, and when time came for cuts - the newest hires, not the poorest workers were the ones shown the door. I dont see the point of collective bargaining, i would much rather negotiate my own raises/benefits on my own merits and work ethic to support it than a union person that doesnt care about me.

Aside from that- dont these people have jobs to go to? Do they not need paychecks to pay bills and live? I mean if they all have that nice of nest eggs that they are willing to drain to protest everyday - more power to them, i just would rather be working and protecting my savings rather than having to live off of savings with a protest that isnt doing anything really to benefit me. Its not like the republicans are going to have a change of heart all of a sudden today, becuase they stayed that extra day to protest.

Of course they’ll continue milling around shouting their usual socialist slogans because what else can they do? Their union goons have commanded them to do this.

Regarding any prospects of a recall, I think the odds are slim to none when one considers that despite union backing for Walker’s opponent, he won handily. his means to me that they could conceivably get the required number of signatures from their union dregs but the recall would fail because those that voted Walker in would probably vote to reject the recall. After all, Walker just saved the taxpayers from large tax increases, as promised.

Guess who's paying these protestors to be milling about the capitol building instead of being at work? Their union thugs.

Sore losers!!! Funny.

Party of No, where are the jobs?

Theyre overseas, where the unions sent them.

You lost, its time to stop crying about it.

A CEO, a republican & a democrat are sitting at a table with 12 cookies. The CEO takes 11, then turns to the republican & says "The democrat is trying to steal your cookie".

That about sums it up. The republicans genuflect to their corporate wall street masters & will deny anyone else a cookie rather than asking for two & share.

Look at those thuggish elementary school teachers, refusing to lift their iron boot heel off of the neck of those poor defenseless Koch brothers. It brings a tear to Toasty's eye.

And Steve is right, it wasn't the profit-seeking Big Business CEOs who shipped jobs overseas to exploit third world labor, it was totally the unions trying to lose jobs for their own members...

Spicy, Heard it before. A little different with the cookies, but same jest. Don't really know what cookies and unions have in common. Walker and the Repubs don't make a dime for what they did, but the Dems will spend millions trying to undo it. How many cookies is that?

A few thoughts:

One, all government jobs are essentially parasitic and drain money away from the doers and makers of America using that money to do and make. The cycle where paid government employees leverage monies received to affect government to get more money... is incestuous and detrimental to the health of society. At best, government employees should be a-political, but that will never happen.

The collective bargaining statues involved are not what are typically referred to as "rights", and elevating the issue to that level as if they were dishonors all people who have made ultimate sacrifices for the *real* rights of voters to put government in place to change the law. Those that felt their ideology was falling out of favor and sought to undermine the process by disabling government I think were the worst offenders of American values.

And that is my final point, these are legal frameworks. I don't know if these actions are the best idea, but in a fiscal emergency, any major changes are going to be challenged with equal ferocity. If on the whole the people of Wisconsin thinks this was a bad idea, they can put it back in place. So much distress by interest groups about the tragedy of this development is NOT because they are concerned about Wisconsin. They are afraid for themselves, which is totally understandable, if a bit disappointing.

Bluto, that is the most cogent, clear description of the situation I have ever heard. Thank you!!!

Do ANY of you really think that corporate officers have YOUR interests at heart? "First they came for the teachers..."

As a radical moderate, I see many similarities between the Wisconsin Union situation and Obamacare. Both candidates (Walker & Obama) made campaign promises, both got elected, both then had their parties in the legislative branches push through their agendas despite harsh protests and cries of sleezeball tactics from the other side, both Obama & Walker get compared to Hitler, and now the Congressional GOP tries to undo Obamacare while Wisconsin Progressives try to undo Collective Bargaining Reform.

Don't you just love Democracy in action?! It's like mud wrestling only dirtier.

In Nov., you had an election and you voted.

Next year Wisconsin will have another election. If your elected officials work against the people's interests, they face recall elections and get replaced. That is how democracy works.

Theyre overseas, where the unions sent them.

The unions did not send jobs overseas. The corporate owners did in order to maximize profits. It is time this country in acts laws that punish businesses for outsourcing jobs and rewards businesses from bring back jobs from overseas.

I'm really proud of the Wisconsin protesters. We're watching the little guy fight against evil. Walker, Fitzgerald and his Koch and Rove buddies are a nasty nasty bunch.

minan59,

WRONG!

why don't you research how close the unions came to sending the good ol American company/legend Harley Davidson "over-seas".

norm903 "If all the unemployed people protesting spent as much time trying to find work, any kind of work, as they are spending on their protesting they could find jobs in no time"

They HAVE a job. The unions are paying them to show up and protest.

I do have a problem with public employee unions being able to make political contributions. What kind of system is it when the public employees are allowed to elect the same politicians that they 'negotiate' with for higher wages and benefits? When they sit down to 'negotiate', the union says "Give us what we want, or we'll elect someone that will", and since it's the taxpayers, not the politicians that pay the bill, it's obvious the politician is not going to 'bite the hand that feeds them'.

That is a corrupt system, and needs to change.

Franklin Roosevelt (the most pro-union President ever) was right when he wrote to a union leader;

"All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service".

For the full text of his letter, see the following link;

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=15445#ixzz1GKOiseK9

amazing how you know who is employed and where they work! Quite a trick

This fight has just begun and the Teabagger/Republican side can enjoy this moment as much as they want but they will be very unhappy soon. The Koch brothers have convinced a lot of Wall Mart and other hourly workers that the middle class union workers are the enemy - they have effectively pitted working poor against middle class. It is ridiculous of course, to think Walker the Teabaggers and the rich are on the side of the middle class is patently absurd. The rich have NEVER been on the side of the poor and anyone that has not been brainwashed knows this intuitively. They have been lied to in the biggest con-job in America. If you are jealous and take pleasure in this union rights loss you are a fool and are supporting the very people that will destroy you economically.

My wife is a doctor and I'm a scientist, and we understand that as the unions go so goes the middle class as a whole. We are smart enough to realize that we don't make nearly enough money to benefit from Teabagger/Republican policy and anyone making under a million dollars a year is foolish to think Republicans are helping them in any way. We will support this anti-fascist movement until the end.

This protest has now become a political movement - no longer just a protest. This is what people should understand we are doing and will do:

1) Large protests - to let the people know we are more energized than ever

2) Recall votes - WE WILL recall all the Republican/TEabaggers we can and we will not stop until they are all gone and disgraced for their waging economic war on the people

3) April 5th - we will win the state supreme court election

4) Fundraising - will will raise more money than ever before to support candidates that will fight for the people instead of corporations and fascist policies like "austerity"

5) Boycotts - if you are a business or business owner and you give money to Walker and the Republicans we will not spend our money on your products. We will damage those that fund our economic enemies like Walker and Republicans. See Boycotting Scott Walker on Facebook to see products/companies boycotted. Walmart, Menards, Johnsonville meats, M&I Bank, Kwik Trip, Miller/Coors brewing, and many other companies are going to pay for their support of fascist politicians - we will hurt your bottom line!

6) Strikes - there will be targeted and possibly general strikes

7) Voting - we will no longer sit at home at elections and Republicans/Teabaggers will not be electable with these fascist economic policies and radical social agenda

The people cannot be denied any longer - we have been beaten down too long and too severely to take it anymore!

I like how #1.2 admits that Walker is only trying to follow in Hitler's footsteps and couldn't give a flying F--- about the budget.

@Roy--enlighten me, where can I see those stories?

OH, and when we do finally take back America those fascists on Wall Street that have robbed America blind will be cuffed, arrested and put on trial for this economic war they have declared on American people. We intend to fill the jail with Wall street crooks and let poor people that have been warehoused in prisons for decades for petty drug crimes out.

Look out fatcats! Your day is coming...

Boycott Scott Walker Contributors on Facebook - past 16k and rising fast!

. Walker and the Repubs don't make a dime for what they did,

Pure utter bull@!$%#. Of course they will make out doing the bidding for the Koch brothers and the corporate elite. The down payment was made before the election and more will be flowing in. The destruction of the middle class is going full steam ahead, and for the life of me I can't figure out why some of you are not only defending it, but doing all you can to hasten it. The stupidity of advocating against your own interests is mind boggling. This isn't about who is sucking off the gov't teat (although many examples of corporate welfare are there, you never want to cut it), this is about the manipulation of idiots by the powerful into attacking a "boogyman" (unions) so they take the attention off of themselves. Don't be stupid.

http://www.businessinsider.com/15-charts-about-wealth-and-inequality-in-america-2010-4?op=1

"The unions did not send jobs overseas. The corporate owners did"

oh right ...now i remember all the union leaders up in arms, calling for marches and protest while lobbying against these evil corporate owners who's companies they own stock in that is making them rich off profits from non union work in third world countries...god how could i forget the fuss the unions have made about this , it was all over the imaginary media of the union members

TheOverlord

Time will tell, but I suspect that when the taxpaying citizens of Wisconsin find out that the bad public sector workers and teachers can now be fired and replaced with good ones, and that layoffs are avoided, and public sector pay and benefits are brought in line with the private sector (the ones who pay the bills), and the unions still have the ability to represent their workers, and their taxes don't have to go up to support higher wages and benefits for public workers, they just might not vote the way you think.

Just look at the results in Indiana from putting a harness on the public sector union's greedy demands. Mitch Daniels did the same thing to unions in Indiana a few years back, and now his approval ratings are about 70%.

echo82

http://www.wifr.com/news/headlines/Illinois_Union_Members_Bus_To_Wisconsin_Protests_116989728.html

Fitzgerald’s comment: By the way, don’t miss this Washington-style gaffe (accidental honesty?) from Wisconsin Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald: "If we win this battle, and the money is not there under the auspices of the unions, certainly what you're going to find is President Obama is going to have a much more difficult time getting elected and winning the state of Wisconsin," he told FOX on Wednesday, per the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

So now you hear from the horses mouth. It's not about the money or the people of Wisconsin. It's all about politics and trying to get at the President.

But I am sure some people will still find a reason to defend Walker, while burying their heads in the sand.

These “financially responsible cynics” are the same that imposed the 700 billion in tax cuts for the 2% of the top rich guys in this country. No problem then. The same that got extraordinary incentives to rich corporations, the same that unnecessarily pushed the war in Iraq, to benefit the military-industrial groups, where they vaporized other 900 billion because of lack of accountability, on top of the cost of the war, the same that allowed Cheney-Halliburton overbill the taxpayer for “services” provided under those sweet NO BID contracts, the ones that that hired Mr. Prince’s goons to massacre mostly civilians and turned a blind eye on the indignities in Abu Ghraib and helped to put the name of this country on the gutter in front of the world. And those are just few of these gentlemen’s deeds. Teach me about responsibility and patriotism.

They are treating us like if we were a bunch of short memory idiotic flock.

ROY --

Wisconsin has the highest SAT scores in the nation. How much better do you want their teachers to be??? Geeminy Christmas, do any of you THINK before regurgitating this crap?

Yellow brick --

Obama was clear about his priorities before he took office, and was elected by a landslide, and has not varied by much anything he said he would try to do. Walker never mentioned union-busting on the campaign trail, has now admitted it has nothing whatever to do with balancing the budget and everything to do with the wealthiest of campaign donors. And you can vote however you want in 2012, and I will too -- but Walker will be gone long before then.

Bill in Houston-

If you knew about WI, you would know there is no possible way the numbers at the Capitol equal the number of state workers. The people at the Capitol are not just state workers- there are also students and people who work in the private sector like myself. Many come in shifts and after work. Not everything is as simple as Fox News tells it.

They agreed to financial concessions weeks ago, which you know if you've been paying attention. Our governor though -who seems to have a too close for comfort connection to the Kochs, like a lot of politicians all over the country- tells us collective bargaining is important part to repairing the budget. Such an important part, that he never mentioned it during the election and then removed it from the budget bill so it could be voted on Wednesday night (which not for nothing, they voted on illegally). "How can something be both about the budget and not about the budget" many asked Wednesday night, though perhaps they forgot to use their indoor voices while doing so.

I also wonder how much time you've spent in schools- not because I'm questioning your intellect, but because I'm wondering if you have actually been in one lately. If so, was it in a wealthy community? An urban area? A rural area? It seems like there are an awful lot of people out there who think they know how classrooms should work and think they or other folks would be better than our current group of teachers. I wish some of them would go into Education then, or at least volunteer at schools. If we all care about the kids' education, it's probably time to start getting in there and doing something about it, instead of making blanket statements of criticisms against those you have never met or seen do their job.

What I think is happening in WI is people are waking up. They're waking up to the fact that Wall Street and big business can crash the economy and continue to take in a huge disproportion of the wealth (unless they are working 250+ hours more a week than their employees to make up for the huge discrepancy). They do this, while we regular folks lose our homes and jobs, causing less tax revenue. Then because states start to run into financial problems (again because of the global recession Wall Street helped cause), they expect us to buy it's just because those greedy state workers have too much. Which is all well and good, as WI state employees accepted that they would have to continue to pay for the problems others caused, but that wasn't enough for our Walker. Why? Because it's not about the budget.

My hope is that more people will wake up. Hopefully we can stop questioning why those who do services for us (like educate our kids, pick up our garbage, maintain our roads, risk their lives putting out our fires, protect our streets, etc.) earn a decent wage with good benefits, and instead question why more of those who work in the private sector don't have similar wages and benefits. Perhaps it is fair. And perhaps those at the top are only incentivized when they take home billions and billions, instead of just billions. But I still don't see how this necessitates ending union memberships for those 7-13% of Americans left in unions. If it's because it can lead to a misuse of taxpayer dollars and union dues, someone please tell me where I can get "my money" back for the Iraq war that continues to cost this country billions.

I do not understand the nonstop vilification of state workers from some of the same folks who defend million dollar bonus for those whose actions led to the crash of our economy. Perhaps, I don't understand because I'm just an immoral, ignorant person. If you become disabled to the point you can't work or run into another misfortune (not because you are lazy but say due to a health problem), I'd like to think though we live in a country where we can help you out. I guess I'm not ready to buy that the way towards that is ending unions and putting all our faith in big business. I've seen too many egregious things to tell me that neither by themselves would leave to honest, fair, amazing things. I thought the American Dream was if you work hard, you can get a good job and make a decent living. I don't know when it turned into be happy you have a job at all.

"The race card", "For the children card" and most recently "middle class americans card'. There is no "card" that lib/dem/progressives will not play from the bottom of the deck when defending their indefensable position. This is not about the middle class-the union would have you think the majority of the middle class is unionized-far from it. Public sector unions do not represent the middle class, they represent a minority group that demands it be treated as a protected class, a privelaged class.

-Public sector employees, on average, earn 42%-45% more in total compensation than comparable positions in the private sector.

-Unemployment in the public sector averaged 3% for the period Dec2007 thru Jan 2010. In the same period unemployment averaged 7.9% in the private sector.

Looks to me like the public sector has not made the sacrifices the private sector has made in this economy. Public sector unions had best be careful-the real middle class is on to you.

Results will speak whether this move was successful or not in Wisconsin.

When Indiana's Governor invoked this on his own, his approval rating fell to 30%, then next election, with a successful state budget, was re-elected with 60% of the vote!

Tantrum throwers are done, the legislation passed, go home!

Give the Governor and the legislation a chance to show rusults!

Results of a balanced budget or not will speak louder than tantrum throwing self centered public employees.

Why do all the liberals keep talking about corporations versus unions as if that it what this is all about?! This is the PUBLIC EMPLOYEES unions against the TAXPAYERS. This is not about a corporation trying to screw their workers. It's about the taxpayers saying that we can no longer afford to provide public employees with higher salaries, better benefits, more lucrative retirements, and eternal job security while we are losing our jobs, our homes, and our savings.

It's time for the public employees to feel a bit of this recession too... Shared sacrifice.

Both candidates (Walker & Obama) made campaign promises, both got elected, both then had their parties in the legislative branches push through their agendas despite harsh protests and cries of sleezeball tactics from the other side

That's true, but Obama campaigned on health care reform. Walker, on the other hand, campaigned on balancing the budget, not taking away collective bargaining rights. I'm sure if he had mentioned that, he wouldn't be there.

Old Russian joke:

A Russian farmer says, "My neighbor has a cow and I don't."

"I wish his cow would die!"

Union wages and benefits lift the wages and benefits of non-union workers. Unions are a balance against the power of corporations. They're not perfect, but they're not motivated solely by greed as corporations are. Unions don't poison our air and water, and then oppose every effort to regulate pollution. Corporations used to see nothing wrong with child labor and slavery because it was "good for business." Corporations opposed weekends and the 40-hour work week. Unions gave us those things.

good post CCryder

I have mixed feelings about this. It seems that a lot of people are claiming that government employees are overpaid and lazy, and blaming them for the trouble. Why have all these states operated so close to the line that now there is a down cycle in the economy they can't pay their bills? When things are going well, they spend, spend, spend, right up to the limit. Maybe they shouldn't have hired so many employees or created so many programs to begin with. It seems a little harsh to blame a teacher for the failure of the state government to plan ahead. Yes, they have a union. I don't much like unions, but I'm not convinced that all the state's trouble can be blamed on a union. Sure seems like political theatre to me.

How can this group think they can unseat Gov Walker when the majority of people in WI elected him? Folks pack it up and go home. You'll be fine and your total out lay will be probably $500. Join the rest of the country that contributes to their medical plan. The only thing you're protesting is that you have to pay for the first time in your lives. Get over it. Believe me the majority of Americans do not have one bit of sympathy for you. Your starting to act like disappointed children.

How can this group think they can unseat Gov Walker when the majority of people in WI elected him?

Simple, only 26% of the eligible voters in Wisconsin voted for Wanker. He has disenfranchised many people I know who voted for him, so I think there are plenty of people here that would support recalling him.

ornery dem

Highest SATs? Way to swallow the propaganda. Using raw SAT (or the more commonly used ACT) scores without accounting for the demographics of the state, and giving credit to the teachers union is like saying Auburn University has a better football team than the Green Bay packers, because Auburn was undefeated and the Packers lost a few games along the way to the Superbowl..

In fact Texas (non-unionized) schools beat Wisconsin schools 17 out of 18 times using truly comparable metrics .

I am really sick of this. Some of you talk about democracy, yet support the Democrats who fled the State to subvert that very process. Bruce is right the Corps have nothing to do with this. If it wasn't for the private sector unions may Corps wouldn't have outsourced jobs. This has nothing to do with private sector unions. You demo's think the repubs pulled a fast one, naughty, naughty, how did Obamacare get passed? You Public Emplyee union people, think about only one thing - "me" - let everyone else make a sacrifice for -"me" - you don't give squate about Wisc. or this country. Elections will be held in 2012 wait until then and cast your ballot - that's the Constitutional process - Oh no - you want to spend a fortune of TAXPAYER'S money on a recall election 'cause your too antsy to wait. Fine have your recall election - pay for it yourselves - put your money where your mouth is! You will lose, now and in 2012 - it doesn't matter - you don't have the public support you need to win - you know that you don't - you're just trying to convince the Repubs in the legislature and Walker that you do. How dumb do you think they are? As far as the lawmakers looking after themselves, that's bipartisan - both Repubs and Demkos have been doing it for years - it has nothing to do with this issue - and will never change - take that to the ballot box.

I think that covers it. I'm sick of hearing the same crap over and over again. If I forgot to mention something let me know.

@Eagle, because he first gave massive tax cuts to corporations THEN decided that the unions needed to not have collective barganing rights AFTER the unions made concessions on wage and benefit issues...it is not about the money for the union workers, it is about a right being taken from them..and if ther majoirty of Americans do not have sympathy then those Americans are fools, unions essentially created the middle class in this country, and now Walker and his ilk are woking on destroying it.

Ornery, If 52% was a landslide for BO, it was a landslide for Walker too. If a politician doing something that you don't like is grounds for recall, we'd get rid of all of them. I don't buy into the poll stats too much at all. Clinton was impeached, didn't do any good. Even if the Dems can gain control of the senate, they still don't have the house. If WI is anything like the FED, you need a 2/3 majority to override Walker's veto and you don't have it. The bill is now law and protesting is foolish to say the least. Waste of time and money. Recall if you can? Get some court to overrule it, if you can? That's all you got.

Again Minan59 ??...(#1.56)..."Only 26% of the eligible voters in Wisconsin voted for Wanker. He has disenfranchised many people I know who voted for him

Walker won by the same percentage as Obama did....53-46...so one is a landslide and one is marginal ??? Obama only won with 32.9% of eligible voters..... many of the independent voters have woken up about Obama. Dropped 10 points in the last week...2012 sure will be an interesting year.

Republicans also won Majorities in both chambers of the Wisconsin Legislature...

" Elections have consequences", " I won"....Who said that ???

Tag...you're it...

The Koch have absolutely nothing, nada, zip, zilch, zero with this whole thing. They are Libertarian, not Republican. Some joker pranked Walker by calling him and posing as one of the Koch brothers, FAILED. David Koch lives in NYC and stated that he has never met or ever spoken to Gov. Walker.

Recalling Obamas words referring to the Republicans after his election. "They are welcome to come along, but they'll have to ride in the back." Such an arrogant and divisive thing to say. Now it's Dems. and the Unions turn to ride in the back. Deal with it!

And get a clue...it's the UNIONS who are greedy. Their primary interest is in collecting dues. So you want to kvetch about greed, how about you look about you. They keep their members paying the piper, forcing private business to pay higher and higher wages, and benefits, that the companies can't afford to do business and those people are then OUT OF JOB. Result: NO WAGES.

When Dems/Libs win an election it's in our faces with "you lost, get over it". When they lose one, however, "it was stolen" and all of the winners need to be recalled.

The unions and the budget are closely linked. It is the over-generous pension plans in many states that are bankrupting the states and making it impossible to balance the budgets. So yes, the governor does want to weaken the unions because they make it difficult, if not impossible, to balance the budget. Some of you on here talk as if they are totally unrelated (you know better, of course, but to admit it would weaken your position.)

CC- yep- the PRIVATE Unions got us those things- Good for them- and US!! Now that these things were turned into law MANY YEARS AGO- what, and I want an HONEST answer here, have they done for anyone lately- besides taking dues, getting Democrats elected and bleeding companies/governments dry?

I believe Private Unions have a place in the world (I personally don't like them). The difference is this- They make the bed they sleep in- if they bargain too much from the company- they all lose their jobs (company moves or goes belly up). States, Counties & Cities do not have that luxury- they are not allowed, by law, to go belly up or move! Therefore all demands must be paid. But by whom? The taxpayers- ALL the people! So when Public Unions negotiate for more- it is EVERYONE that pays, including the union members! So yea- you got the raise- and the extra tax bill to pay for it! So really- did you actually get a raise?

Companies/Corporations produce product and take in $$'s to pay for things. Yes, for PROFIT! I know- profit is evil (in a warped mind). Profit makes the world a better place. Without it- you would not have the latest drugs to cure, the latest cell phone to call on, the newest great computer to write or study on, the latest "green" car to drive, the latest greatest movies to entertain you, or the latest equipment to save your life in an emergency (or any time for that matter), etc... You see- profit is good- do NOT complain unless you live in the woods and use NONE of these things!!!!!! of course, you wouldn't be reading this if you did, would you?

Governments produce NOTHING- no sellable product, they only take. Call them leeches if you will. Since they are not self sustaining- they rely on others to pay for everything. All they can do is take, then ask for more.

I for one have enough of a hard time making ends meet paying my OWN bills- I really hate paying for someone elses!

BTW- the public sector unions in Wisconsin are still in tact- don't lose sight of that! The left would have you believe we just kicked them to the curb and mugged them of everything they own! didn't happen.

Time will tell whether this was a good move or not, but I look at Indiana and see that it will be successful.

Bruce, you wrote, "It is time for public employees to feel a bit of this recession too."

Who would not feel it? Maybe Walker. Maybe Koch Brothers who made nine billion dollars last year alone ~ and maybe ask how they did it.

Governor Walker and his corporate benefactors plan to stick it to workers anywhere and everywhere for the budget shortfall which was not caused by working people. They will stick it to everyone they can possibly stick it to. Think!

Crimes on Wall street caused this near-Great Recession. But Walker and Co. would like us ordinary folks to accept the blame. They don't care who lives on the bread line. They're bating us to fight about it. Quite the spectacle. But decent wages and conditions are just basic family needs, not ideas from Mars.

Governor of Florida already made $1.7 Billion cut from seniors, Florida poor and Headstart to pay for a $1.8 Billion tax break for corporations and businesses in that state. Other Governors are doing the same sleight of hand across the country. So let us not fight about the facts.

Nice post Spider. It's rather humorous actually reading all the post about the "nasty" corporations. Without the corporations there are no jobs. The unions do not create jobs, the corporations do. The unions own two things, their member's money and the democrat politicians. Funny how there are "Fat Cat" corporations but the libs never talk about the "Fat Cat" corrupt union bosses. Imagine that.

My ex husband was a union member, local 60 out of New Orleans. They rarely if ever helped him get a job and he refused to work any job that wasn't union. It sent me to the food stamp office when I was 8 months pregnant with our second child. They did NOTHING to help us. All they wanted were his dues. I can also tell you whether he or his friends liked a candidate or not they ALWAYS voted for the democrat because the democrats bowed down to the unions. I've seen it, lived it, been there and got the T-shirt!

Onerydem,

Just want to point out that you are very wrong about WI having the highest SAT scores. WI's 2010 scores placed them 3rd, and that is because only 4% of WI students took the SAT. (And those were likely only the competitive college-bound students. Most WI students take the ACT, and they ranked 17th in the nation for 2010. Sorry, but you can't give the teachers bragging rights on either test.

ornery dem "ROY -- Wisconsin has the highest SAT scores in the nation. How much better do you want their teachers to be???"

Really? Here is a site that says otherwise. It appears that Wisconsin is somewhere in the middle when it comes to SAT scores.

http://www.realonlinedegrees.com/sat-scores-by-state/

Thanks for the link jrl- not a word about the bussed in protesters being paid. They were MoveOn.org members - Move On wouldn't pay you a dime - and make you buy into their group in order to board the bus.

I signed a Move On petition once - they bugged me for years to contribute - they are probably still sending stuff to that old e-mail address...lol.

Didn't Glenn Beck bus in half the people at his rally?

Someone tell the uninformed that unions have absolutely no authority to "send jobs overseas". Just think of the irony in that idea!

These decisions are only made by corporate executives. Period!

Myrtle & Spider- Thank you! We are all on the same page on this!!

The Government serves at the pleasure of the people- without the people's consent- the Government does not exist- nor do the jobs within. We, the people have that kind of power- of the People, By the People, For the People.

Corporate America however is where money is raised for all walks of life. One can sustain themselves off the land- people did this for thousands of years, but are beyond this point and most now live off Corporate America. They provide jobs- ALL the jobs- even the farmers and ranchers. Jobs provide a means to an end. Without Corporate America- the Government would dry up and blow away.

The Government relies on revenue from the People- it can not exist any other way. The "People" means ALL the people. The Government only can take- it can never provide on its own. Even food stamps, welfare checks, SSI, etc are all from taxes collected. Corporate America pays no taxes, but is the largest collection arm of the Government for tax collection. The People pay the taxes (all Federal tax is embedded in the cost of goods). If taxes go up- we, the people pay more. This is where most contention comes from- we are paying our own taxes, and theirs as well, but that's what the public will bear- so it is.

Those that rail against Corporate America better understand one thing- unless they really do live off the land- they are involved heavily in Corporate America. It is our way of life.

Now we can argue if you don't like what Corporate America does with its profits (investments, profit-sharing, donations, pay increases, bonuses, etc...). I personally don't like what Unions do with their monies. Take from the members and spend it on candidates that close to half of the membership (just judging from what I hear...) don't agree with.

And since we are railing on the Koch Brothers- lets look at just what they gave in the last years: $1.5M to political entities (mostly Republican) and more than $600M to charities and scholarships around the nation (including, but not limited to- New York-Presbyterian Hospital Weill Cornell: $15 million, M.D. Anderson Cancer Center: $25 million, The Hospital for Special Surgery: $26 million, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center: $30 million, Prostate Cancer Foundation: $41 million, Deerfield Academy: $68 million, Lincoln Center's NY State Theater: $100 million, Massachusetts Institute of Technology: $139 million)

.So rail all you want- I will salute them for their generosity.

BTW- in the same period of time- George Soros gave $36.5M to ALL liberal organizations.

I see Sir Collape-a-lot is out in force today!!

You all really need to read what the Union Leaders are pulling down in salaries before you bad mouth the private sector. Read this article.

http://detnews.com/article/20070814/BIZ/708140392/Labor-bosses-don-t-share-workers--pain

Throngs of protesters gathered Saturday outside a convention center where senators made their first public appearances in Madison since ending their self-imposed exile. Demonstrators treated the lawmakers like rock stars, yelling "Fab 14, our heroes!" and giddily snapping pictures.

All 14 Democrats later marched around the Capitol, trading chants of "thank you" with protesters who ringed the sidewalks. When the senators made their way to a stage, they promised to shift their energies toward recall drives already under way against eight of their GOP colleagues.

Ironic that no one sees it as how the democrats failed their constituents.

Now if only we can get Walker to join the NFL!!

mike in delray, aggie, spider (1.63, 1.64, 1.65):

Spot on post, best of this string!

minan59 and ornerydem are FOOLS to think the bamster "won by a landslide", pfffft!

unions SUCK!!!

I see a lot of comments here blaming this solely on Political motivation, and that is just what the Left want everyone to think. The Unions pushed for the Left's agenda to teach Billy's two Daddy's instead of Reading and Wtiting, Feminist issues and self-esteem instead of Government and Geography, and gang membership as freedom of speech and choice. The Teachers can't teach a child enough to hold down a job upon graduation from High School, the SEIU uses facist tactics to interrupt rally's of opposing Pol's., and the Left cheer them on.

There may have been a day when the Union movement was needed, but starting in the late 1950's, when Organized crrime took control of them, they then used the "wildcat strike" to effectively put our American Steel, Coal, Mining, Transportation and Sea shipping and building out of business with harrasment strikes in support of other organizations.

Many good jobs are no longer here because of the Unions, and Bill Clinton allowed the industry to go overseas to cut costs and improve profits with NAFTA, yet you Lefties still want to blame the Republicans that opposed that. All you on the Left want is for the cost to the Gummit to increase by way of "Benefits" in the thug controlled SEIU and the likes, yet you never explain where the Tax revenue will come from to pay those exorbatant retireements when the Companies are being forced out with the Union demands. Where you gonna get the revenue to support the "Nanny State" you've grown, Lefties? How are you going to pay for it? You scream that Wall Street is to blame, and you are wrong again!!!!

It was Clinton and NAFTA, and his homeownership "entitlement" forcing the lenders to issue sub-primes that blew the bubble, not Dubya. You just can't face the facts here.

Your next squall will be the cost of the Illegal Bush war, but before you start that whine, remember that it was two Democrats, Kennedy and Johnson, that caysed the most deadly war in the last Century, Vietnam, by spreading that lie, then a Bad Republican put a stop to it. I don't like Nixon, never did, but at least he stopped the Democrats war after 58,000 Americans died, cutting the slaughter because the Democrats wouldn't allow us Military to fight the war properly.

So many collapse/censored comments, all because the authors dont agree the Unions are wrong, the Governor iss doing what he needs to to cut costs, and isn't suing the State as Obama is for enforcing the peoples will and law.

Get over it, lefties, this is gonna reinforce the Right in 2012, because we have all the unemployed fighting this fight.

Whining, crying, name calling and collapsing now, Leftist/Socialist/Communist kids, you just can't handle the fact too many of us still around that lived and remember the History of the period from 1950-2000, when the Democrats marched on America and our Freedoms.

The union protestors in Wisconsin are nothing but a mob of racist, violent thugs carrying hate-filled signs. Now some of them are issuing death threats against politicians who oppose them. The photos of the protestors show a sea of white faces carrying signs comparing the governor to Hitler.

But wait a minute! Wasn't that the same criticism leveled against Tea Party gatherings by far-left whacko's? But somehow the same behavior is okay - even applauded - when far-left whacko's do it.

It's fitting they have images of Hitler as he wanted to unionize all workers in Germany.

Rhonda...

One huge difference...there are many, many, many more labor supporters than there will ever be teabaggers...this will be obviously realized come November 6, 2012. Enjoy your "moment" in the sun...it's about to get overcast!

And the gimme class screeches on...

"gimme class?" Ya mean like the Koch brothers, Kenneth Lay (may he rot in pieces) John Thane! Step up THIEF!!!

This struggle has no state borders. Billionaires and Corporations steamrolling over individuals rights, such as Koch's, pour their dirty money in and manipulate the limited capacity of many to look deeply into what is happening ; loss of freedom for themselves and their children. I prefer not being a corporate tool. Why would you?

Middle Class ?? Privileged Class. The middle class agrees with the Governor because we pay the salaries and benefits of the those that cannot be laid off or have their benefits reduced.

No, the "gimme class" means the unions and other free-loading government beaureaucrats that are of no genuine use. If they were of any use, wouldn't they be at their jobs instead of out protesting? Do the math.

We hate your corporate guts, now where are all the jobs you promised us, and could you throw some benefits in with the high wages we demand.

Wow - must be nice to have a government job where you can take time off to work on political demonstrations!

People that need a Union and a "collective" group to stand behind them should ask themselves...aren't YOU valuable enough to bargain on my own?

In the private sector YOUare paid based on YOU. How well educated YOU are, how experienced YOU are, how hard YOU work, how well YOU perform, how much YOU contribute.

Unions only support the average...not those that excel.

So if YOU really feel that YOU need a Union...you're just saying that YOU can't stand on your own. YOU fear being measured for the contribution YOU alone make.

What does that really say about YOU?

Interestingly enough, a Democrat Governor killed off collective bargaining rights in Virginia. Funny how the media isn't mentioning that

Dave --

YOU do a little reading before making a fool of yourself. Every perk of your soft life -- and we in America have it very, very soft -- was fought for by individuals who stood together and demanded change. YOU go out and build an interstate highway system, Dave. YOU create a university. YOU go to the moon. YOU defeat the German war machine. YOU stop child labor, slave labor, lethal working conditions -- YOU keep poisonous water, unsafe medications, unhealthy foodstuffs from appearing on the market. All by your little self.

When individuals come up against corporate interests, corporate interests throw money and more money into distracting YOU with their ad campaigns, and YOU suck it up like Pablum. It wasn't the unions that sent jobs overseas -- it was the corporations, who could care less about American jobs. WHY do YOU defend them?

Dave you mean how much you smooch your bosses but.Because you cannot compete on equal working field because you don 't think your equal.People protest because whats right.I guess the school kids protesting are union too.Even high schoo kidsl know whats right .But 3rd grader smarter your but smooching self center self right.You must have be raised on rep tit.But don't worry they'll get around to you later.

AP and Echo: Why do I think they are unemployed? Because if they have the time to spend weeks on the proverbial picket line and are being paid by the union to be there it is a fair presumption they don't have meaningful jobs.

And if they don't like the jobs they have, presuming they have one, they are free to find a better, higher paying one that suits their personal requirements. The book "Who Moved My Cheese" comes to mind; the cheese (money) is gone. Time to find it somewhere else...and not my pocket.

Weaver - get your facts straight - the governor of Virginia is a Republican

0bama's Storm Troopers will be brought in from Chicago to make it look like there are a lot more people against the Gov.

Dave: What do you do for a living? Do you have the balls to tell us honestly what you do for a living?

@black_belt---again, proof?

Barbara

You get your facts straight.

It was A Democrat that was Gov. of Virginia when the Collective Bargaining Bill was passed in 1993! Where was the Union Protesters then??

Read and weep:

Wisconsin Republicans have scored a big victory in their fight against collective bargaining for public employees. In Virginia, however, teachers, police, firemen and other public service workers have long done without the right that public workers in 47 other states enjoy.

Virginia public workers lost their right first in a 1977 state Supreme Court ruling and then in a 1993 law ushered in by Democratic Gov. Douglas Wilder. Until the Wisconsin vote, the only other states with similar bans were North Carolina and Texas
Go to:

voices.washingtonpost.com/local-opinions/2011/03/no_union_rights_virginians_are.html

And read the article.

Why should they quit until the little rat b@#$@#t is recalled and at least four of his cohorts with him

Then they will be there for awhile since they cant recall the governor for a year.

Trashing the state capital? Death threats against Walker and the Republicans? It was just a month ago the left was vilifying the right for its violent rhetoric in the wake of the Giffords shooting. Now the liberals are showing how to be true hypocrites.

It was A Democrat that was Gov. of Virginia when the Collective Bargaining Bill was passed in 1993! Where was the Union Protesters then??

Thats true. It was also Jimmy Carter and a Democrat Senate and House majority that stripped collective bargaining for federal unions in '76. Liberals have no leg to stand on in this argument.

oh Weaver-476013 haven't you learned by now that when a democrat does it is it for the good of "the people" but when a republican does the exact same thing then it is the most evil thing on earth...it's like the democrat mayor in rhode island who fired all the teachers so he could pass his budget without having to deal with collective bargaining ....but hey hes a dem so what he did was holy. pure and righteous

logdump - my suggestion is you don't do any posting. What you say had "no value".

Echo82, You want proof ? Would it really matter to you if it were true ? Then call any union hall or better yet go in person. Ask if they're taking on apprentices, don't worry, they're not because there is no work. Tell'm you're inspired by the showing of union support in Madison and you want to be part of it. And see what happens. Maybe then you'll stop calling people liars here.

Today they exist to collect your dues as a war chest to influence politicians.

Isn't that exactly what political parties do? Yes, yes it is. Here's your sign.

I find it laughable that people think unions have become obsolete in less than 100 years. What, did stockholders start hating money or something?

Every penny an employee gets is one less penny for the investors. If the investors leave, the company falls. The corporation is designed to get the most work for the least expense, and this strategy throws 80% of the American population under the bus.

Republicans and Democrats have their reputations on which people vote, but in the end they must all pay their dues to the millionaires who elect them first. What America needs is a Labor Party.

scott walker and the republican senators, it's time for you to go home now, I hear your mommies caling you and you don't want to piss off mommy do you??

I'd really like to know what country and/or planet Dave happens to live in/on.

I worked in the private sector throughout my career. Cost Of Living raises were less than the real cost of living increases, benefits were shaved down year after year by increasing deductibles, contributions and reducing coverages, bonuses were based on qualitative AND quantitative performance that, more often than not, was "subjective" and just happened to fall short no matter the rave reviews I got from my clients, I worked at least 60 or more hours per week just to keep up with my ever-increasing work load, there was no paid overtime because of my "salaried" status, my supporting staff was insufficient to handle the overload of work so we were forced to work obscene hours more often than not, I absorbed expenses on MY credit card for travel and client entertainment and waited not 1, not 2, not 3, not even 4 weeks, but often as much as 2 months for reimbursement while interest accrued on THEIR debt, I NEVER got to use the majority of my allotted vacation time and it was a use it or lose it pile of composte, and almost NEVER took a sick day and when I did take a sick day, I still had to work from home just to keep up, my Per Diem for meals while on travel wouldn't even cover the cost of a Happy Meal, and my allowed accommodations while traveling were often in the most dangerous parts of town and in the lowest possible grade of hotels that were more befitting of the business conducted by prostitutes and drug dealers.

I want Dave to know that I'm very happy that he lives in Utopia, where ever that is. Dave should also know that his exceptionally rewarding and fulfilling career experience is unique to him and, I'm sure, a very few other Utopians.

I would like to re-enter the job market, Dave. Would you mind sharing the name of your company and it's address, assuming it's within our galaxy, so that I can get in on that AWESOME deal you've got going on? Oh, and can I get there from here or will the Shuttle be made available for the trip?

ornery dem- How many people do YOU employ? Keep spewing your hatred and continue to vilify the very corporations we need to employee people so they can pay taxes to fund the public sector. Without the very corporations you hate there is no money for the public sector. Please also make sure that any 401K (Stock or Mutual Fund), pension or savings you may have is not invested in any corporation. You hate them so much, put your money where your mouth is. Unless your flat broke I'm betting you own shares in those evil corporations. Please stop consuming or using any gas, electricity, Internet service, banks, etc. They are all EVIL corporations.

By refusing to quit, they will end up on the welfare system after losing their jobs and living off the taxpayers all over again.

Stupid is as Stupid does, and I do believe that Forrest Gump had a much more functiong brain than these monons ever had.

Funny- the "gimme class"! You are talking Dems right? Remember- you have choice in whether or not to buy from the Koch Brothers!

Found this interesting:

Koch Brothers donations total for 2001-2010= $1.5M (83% to Republican organizations)

Soros donation total for 2001-2010= $32.5 (ALL to Liberal organizations, including MoveOn.org).

$1.5M to $32.5M? Not even close! Don't complain about the Koch Bros. until they catch up with George! and Walker isn't even close to the top of the Koch Bros list!

As an intellectual, I find it nothing short of pathetic that you think about Forrest Gump at all. You do know that he was a fictional character displayed onto a screen by a projector and it wasn't really real, right? Well, that's what I was told by those who save the movie that I never found the time or interest to watch. I was busy working, furthering my education, reading those things called "books", and enjoying the outdoors during my down time.

If these people refuse to quit their protests, they can always get up and move to another state where union rights are still intact and/or they may decide to take their degrees, experience and talents elsewhere in their own community.

The knife cuts both ways, you know. Do you realize the enormous cost of recruiting, qualifying, orienting a new employee, regardless of their profession? Retention of qualified and well-performing employees is always the better solution. How do businesses retain their most qualified and well-performing employees? Well, they do it by ensuring that both pay and benefits are competitive or even better than that offered by their competitors, if you will. My husband is a CFO of a company and they make it a point of good business to stay abreast of compensation and benefits trends amongst their competitors. Good talent, once retained, must be incentivized to not only perform well, but to stay on board to keep the quality of work high, allow for upward mobility in their existing workforce, and to contain, to the degree humanly possible, the extraordinary cost of recruiting and hiring "newbies."

What part of these known facts seems to elude you? If there's anything I can do to help you with that whole hysterical blindness and adject ignorance think you're working, HOLLA!

Bruce, you wrote, "It is time for public employees to feel a bit of this recession too."

Who would not feel it? Maybe Walker. Maybe Koch Brothers who made nine billion dollars last year alone ~ and maybe ask how they did it.

Governor Walker and his corporate benefactors plan to stick it to workers anywhere and everywhere for the budget shortfall which was not caused by working people. They will stick it to everyone they can possibly stick it to. Think!

Crimes on Wall street caused this near-Great Recession. But Walker and Co. would like us ordinary folks to accept the blame. They don't care who lives on the bread line. They're bating us to fight about it. Quite the spectacle. But decent wages and conditions are just basic family needs, not ideas from Mars.

Governor of Florida already made $1.7 Billion cut from seniors, Florida poor and Headstart to pay for a $1.8 Billion tax break for corporations and businesses in that state. Other Governors are doing the same sleight of hand across the country. So let us not fight about the facts.

apologies . .that's abject ignorance. My bad!

Keep going Wisconsin, you may have lost the battle, but you have not lost the war. Walker and his butt bodies the Koch brothers, have waged war upon the unions in order to weaken the Democrats so that the GOP will have a better chance of winning the 2012 elections. Even now the GOP is trying to take away the rights of the young voters away, by trying to pass a bill that prevent 18-25 year old from voteing from their collage campuses. What Walker and the GOP does not know is that the country is on to them. They think that they can do whatever they want and get away with it, well they have a big surprise coming their way. It seems that the GOP have not learn their lesson from the last time this country fired them. We have had enough of giving them chance after chance to prove that they would truly help the people of this great country. Instead of getting together with the Democrats with the purpose of creating jobs and balancing the budget, they have singled out the middle class in an all out war to take away what little self respect we have left. Keep thinking you have won Walker, but it is not over until the fat lady sings at your dismissal. GO PACKERS!!!!!!!!!!!

A few things should be cleared up.

First, negotiating your own compensation is fine if you're one of the few who work for a progressive employer. The fact that women make 80 cents to a man's dollar for the same job, and 68 cents less overall is case in point. And for example, meat packers were once paid $13/hour. But since illegal labor was allowed--starting with Reagan, they now make $8/hour.

During this Great Recession, companies have used the opportunity to lay off the older, more experienced, and even more educated workers because they don't want to fork out the higher pay. Now they are even predatory, offering salaries at poverty level, and under 30K even for high-tech jobs.

Who has benefits like vision, let alone dental coverage anymore? Pensions, WTF is that? I'd much rather have a professionally-managed pension plan than Social Security, but these things are now in the past. Interesting how the GOP/TP want to privatize SS under theses circumstances--401Ks? We saw how well that worked during the economic meltdown.

Collective bargaining in the public sector is a fair debate. But we need MORE organized labor in the private sector.

Second, why don't you ask Iceland who they blame for their bankruptcy? They will say Wall Street, not Soros. Stop with the imaginary enemies and conspiracy theories.

While I'm on the topic, look at your own Republican leaders like Tom DeLay (Jack Abramoff) and Newt Gingrich, with immoral and/or illegal activity, and stop demonizing Reid and Pelosi. Look at the photos of the Town Halls during the health care debate and stop demonizing the protesters in Wisconsin. Look at how Bush's tax cuts were passed with reconciliation, with the second round requiring Cheney's vote as a tie-breaker and stop whining about due process in passing HCR.

And third, this is not about a budget crisis. It's not even about unions, which interestingly excludes police and firefighters--It's simply about campaign funds. Well the Dems will still raise more money and now hopefully folks will more fired up to vote the Republithugs out.

EdwardWI

"Please stop consuming or using any gas, electricity, Internet service, banks, etc. They are all EVIL corporations"

You know, you're right. I will no longer use corporations to buy my food and other needs... BUT WAIT!! Smaller companies have all been bought out!!

When the corporation grows to such an enourmous size, there is no room for competition from these smaller business, because they have no room to grow. In example, why do we not have many affordable renewable energy cars? Oil companies buy them out. Sure seems to me like money talks.

and to norm903- many people can't find new jobs because they can't afford to. You should read "Nickel and Dimed." These people are stuck in a rut. And, when corporations cut their pay and take away their rights as citizens (WHAT? RIGHTS? I thought Tea Partiers were only for those!!) the rut only becomes deeper, separating the poor from the rich. Is that what we really need to stimulate an economy?

Since my comment under #1 was collapsed, I'll repeat it here.

Time will tell, but I suspect that when the taxpaying citizens of Wisconsin find out that the bad public sector workers and teachers can now be fired and replaced with good ones, and that layoffs are avoided, and public sector pay and benefits are brought in line with the private sector (the ones who pay the bills), and the unions still have the ability to represent their workers, and their taxes don't have to go up to support higher wages and benefits for public workers, they just might not vote the way you think.

Just look at the results in Indiana from putting a harness on the public sector union's greedy demands. Mitch Daniels did the same thing to unions in Indiana a few years back, and now his approval ratings are about 70%.

Roy,

But will repeating, repeating it make it true?

apparentlyunamerican - You are clueless! I'm sure you believe that there was a carburetor that got 100 MPG too and that it was bought up by the EVIL corporations. Small business are growing. I own a small business which is in fact a corporation (S Corp). I am extremely excited to compete against the large corporations, especially the one I used to work for! Their size makes them slow to respond and their overhead makes it difficult for them remain competitive. Please stick to something you actually know something about.

apparentllyunamerican - With regards to affordable renewable energy cars. The simple fact is you and everyone else wouldn't purchase them while fossil fuel energy was cheaper (I'm not ignoring the environmental arguement). Now that gas is rising you see a move invest in the technology. By the way there are toatally electric cars being introduced.

Before the "grammar police" fine me, I am aware of the mistake in #2.29. You're vs. your. Sorry, in a hurry!

echo82

@black_belt---again, proof?

Expecting proof from black_belt3 will create undue stress in your life. There will never be proof. There will only be worthless, unprovable "facts" spewed through Rush's medium, back_belt3.

Even our former president, George W. Bush, uses facts and citations more than black_belt3.

Estafan, I can't wait for YOU to have to work for $1.50 an hour, NO overtime pay, NO vacation time, No retirement, and NO health care ! I am sure YOU will enjoy your corporate lifestyle,UNTIL YOU ARE OUTSOURCED. Idiots like you are the reason for this mess, and your desires will only hasten our demise. SOME PATRIOT YOU ARE! Oh by the way, ALL THESE THINGS WERE OBTAINED BY COLLECTIVE BARGAINING!

Since my post was collapsed I will also repeat it here.

I'll Of course they refuse to quit. We know we got screwed over by our Fascist governor and nothing but his removal from office will make Wisconsin citizens happy.

Before there were unions whole families would work 16 hour days and sometimes only getting paid in "script", that were redeemed at the company store. So the company profited from their labor and could inflate the prices of goods, so they got even less for their work. Then came along the evil unions who ruined it for companies. The companies tried locking the workers out, along with beating them and even killed a few. But the evil unions prevailed!

Now we have 40 hour work weeks, over time pay, benefits and grievance procedures in place. When collective bargaining is allowed to be outlawed for public workers, how long til it is ruled illeagl for private workers? There is no constitutional right to overtime pay, sick days, paid vacations or benefits, if you like those things I suggest you think about it.

My uncle worked for the same company as his father. He was a "company man" and took pride in his job. He thought unions were a bad thing. (That was until the company decided it was more cost effective to get rid of older workers before they could retire.) So they reorganized, hiring in new workers and eliminating the jobs of the ones nearing retirement age. Sound illegal? No, not in the corporate world.

Since my uncle was non union he would have had to hire a lawyer to take this to court, which could have taken years, cost alot of money, and then there was very little chance he would win. So in his late 50's he had to choose he could retire at 50% benefits, try to find a job, or relocate to another state to work for the same company that had just screwed him over. He chose to find work where he was (at a drastically reduced wage), and eventually retired at full benefits.

If he had been a union worker they could not have done this, which even he came to realize. He saw the one of the main reasons of why we still need unions, to protect workers' right to work.

Its a bunch of liberal BS to be stating that this is for the benefit for the corporations!

This will in fact HELP THE MIDDLE CLASS because despite the lies, the middle class pay far more taxes than the so called "rich" ever do. Its the home owners, and people making a paycheck that will actually get a tax refund out of this!

I am so sick of these lies that somehow the Republicans are "only for the rich" and the dems are "only for the middle class". What the Republicans did was exactly what the state constitution demanded them to do, and that was to put their state's budget back in order!

Its time to recall the childish democrats who left the state, and violated their oaths to uphold their state constitution, which includes not bankrupting their state!

Why do these idiots keep hijacking the title "working class" as if it somehow applies to them? Sure some of the "working class" are union members but the overwhelming majority are not, and the overwhelming majority are sick of having these greedy crybabies living off of our earnings.

How sad are you if you treat a coward who flees his job like a hero?... I guess since these "protesters" don't work either it must seem natural.

EdwardWI --

Spewing hatred? I was very carefully paraphrasing David's accusations and answering them with facts. I think you are a little out of line.

My husband, in private sector, lost 9/10 of his 401k in the crash -- don't talk to me about how corporations care about us. I am a public employee, and I was allowed, thanks to my union, to choose to invest in conservative municipal stocks, and lost nothing, no thanks, again, to any corporation.

I love public service, or I wouldn't be here. In the last two years, while traffic through the door has tripled, I have lost two employees due to cutbacks. We are busier than we have ever been, serving a community in dire need of our services, yet are facing another 25% cut -- my last employee. I work now harder than I ever have, in private or public sector, and the pay, believe me, is not that great -- the bennies, decent insurance & retirement, are the reason most public employees stay with jobs that pay, on the whole, lower than a comparitive position in private sector. My own pension is threatened by this hate-the-worker crap and new GOP governor, and all those "perks" you think we get -- those "luxuries" like health, vision and dental care -- are just about gone. I AM NOT COMPLAINING. I said that I love public service, and I do. But so many of you posters seem to have this idea that all public employees are lazy, money-grabbing, sit-on-your-butt-and-do-nothing leeches who make millions in pension payouts. I own my house and love my family, work hard and love my job. Why do YOU hate ME?

I have never thought there would be anything for me to retire on -- I've seen this battle revving up for 30 years. I have never asked anything of anyone, I have cared for and buried my parents, both WWII vets, I have worked hard in both sectors since I was 14, paid my taxes happily, knowing that they paid for the accouterments of civilization, and I admit I am getting tired of being vilified by people who have no clue -- and yet I believe I've kept my posts respectful. I DO despair of ever getting through to anyone whose mindset is adamantly ignorant, who will not consider any other fact than one which was heard on right-wing talk radio, who will not do one click's worth of research before posting.

I don't understand wanting to pull your neighbors down, or resenting what they have achieved. I want to pull them up. I want everyone to have a decent standard of living, decent health care, decent education. Like Barbara Kingsolver, I want there to be enough to go around, and there would be, if the profit motive were removed from basic items like health care. I see the imminent Privatization of Everything as something just as horrendous as you would probably consider the nationalization of everything -- but my fear is coming true.

Paul Wellstone said that "Politics is what we ceate by what we do, what we hope for, and what we dare to imagine." It's a quote that gives me hope. He also said, "Never separate the life you lead from the words you speak."

So if you really believe I am "spewing hate," then also believe that this was not my intent. I am frsutrated with you folks, but I don't hate you. I hate faceless corporations who poison the earth and buy elections that serve their interests, including every GOP governor and Representative who was elected last round. I hate it that corporate interests divide us and make it impossible to actually accomplish anything good for our country. I hate that capitalism is more important to so many people than democracy. I may also hate what you say, but I will defend to my death your right to say it.

What I love is this country. I think America is great. I hope my grandchildren will have some glimmer of greatness left in their America as well. And that someone will be there to teach them about it.

You all really need to read what the Union Leaders are pulling down in salaries before you bad mouth the private sector. Read this article.

http://detnews.com/article/20070814/BIZ/708140392/Labor-bosses-don-t-share-workers--pain

ornery dem - I understand your position but once again realize there is no "public sector" without the private sector paying for it. There are no muni's to invest in if there are no corporations (companies) employing private sector workers to pay for them.

I lost 1/3 of my assets in the crash. The difference between you and I is that I blame everyone for it. Not only the CEO's Wall Street, corporations, etc. I blame those who continually refianced their homes pulling equity everytime to buy toys. The same people who never saved for a thing and charged everything running up 10 of thousands of dollars in consumer debt. All contributed to the crash. Having said that the world has changed. Its not that the world want to pull you down. Its that we can't continue to afford to pay what we do. We had to take cuts and so do you.

Unions also buy as much in elections as corporations do. Neither have a place it. Both have agendas that benefit a defined few (in relative numbers).

The CBO has identified 200 billion in redundant/wasteful spending within government. This makes it difficult to argue against privatization of many government functions. Not all functions. The government is nothing more than a poorly run enormous corporation.

By the way, I listen to NPR not right wing radio. Kevin McKinley's On Your Money is my favorite.

ornery dem

""Dave --

YOU do a little reading before making a fool of yourself. Every perk of your soft life -- and we in America have it very, very soft -- was fought for by individuals who stood together and demanded change. YOU go out and build an interstate highway system, Dave. YOU create a university. YOU go to the moon. YOU defeat the German war machine. YOU stop child labor, slave labor, lethal working conditions -- YOU keep poisonous water, unsafe medications, unhealthy foodstuffs from appearing on the market. All by your little self.

When individuals come up against corporate interests, corporate interests throw money and more money into distracting YOU with their ad campaigns, and YOU suck it up like Pablum. It wasn't the unions that sent jobs overseas -- it was the corporations, who could care less about American jobs. WHY do YOU defend them?""

Maybe you should read a little yourself, ornery. The Military fought and won the wars, NOT the Unions. The FDA, NOT the Unions, police the foods and drugs we are using. The benefits were OK until thugs such as SEIU and the Mafia/Teamsters, ( Name any Union here) drove many American Corporations out of business with unreasonable demands, whether the Company could afford it or not. The Private sector pays decent benefits because they like being able to talk to the employees, where a Union shop forbids the Managers from talking to the Worker. It was Bill Clinton and the Democrats that sent the American Job overseas by forcing NAFTA on the *85% of the working American public 11 months after he took office.

It is the Unions that won't allow teachers to teach, managers to manage, or workers to preform their jobs well, under threat of bodily harm or "Trial and fines" by the Union.

I have worked under Unions, and not one of them cared about the Worker, only the Cash they could skim from our wages while turning their backs on us. There is NO justification for the Compfy job where you are restricted from being a good worker and getting a hugely inflated retirement. How long will it take for the idiot Left to understand that when they destroy American Companies and Jobs, it reduces tax income to the Gummit, forcing HIGHER taxes to pay for the Union worker Graft. A good example of "Thug" Unionism is the SEIU and their mode of operation, restricting any opposition from meeting by using Heavy Handed tactics. It is people like the Democrats and SEIU that finance the NBPP, Farrakahn, and the NAACP so they can sue the Dayton, OH city Gummit to LOWER the test qualifications for Police recruiters, just as they did for Teachers and Students in the 1970s, so more dumb people can have work and graduate high school.

The biggest problem America has, and has had since 1960 when Kennedy was elected, is the bastardizing of Americas constitution and dumbing down of our Population in schools so that "special" interests like Gays and student translators, and self esteem agenda's could be taught. It's better to learn about Billy's two Dads or Mary's two Moms than it is to learn Math or science. It's better to supply every language in America a translator for the students that refuse to learn English than it is to teach them the language and make it a requirement to attend school. Better to drain the system with supporting the Illegal Immigrant than to enforce the law. Better to change Americas' Constitution and Laws to favor Sharia than it is to save our soverignty. Heaven forbid we should want to keep America as the Founders wanted. Lets just grow the nanny state and finish the job the Communists started.

Whine, cry, collapse and call names and lable me now Leftist children. You have no clue what you are doing, but you suck up the Leftist lie 1000%, because your Tenured professors and leftist agitators say it's the thing to do. Think for yourself for once. Read non-revisionist history of the World, and see where the Leftist agenda placed all the Nations that have followed good old Marxism and Communism. They have all collapsed, every one of them.

Aha, spoken like a true Republlican , to hell with everyone but me.......good show.

Republican platform for 2011..."Greed is good, unless you teach my kids...then work for free sucker!"

The place I work has public sector jobs open. You start at minimum wage and once every few years you get a quarter raise. The health insurance costs about a third of your wages and has a $5,000 deductible. There is no sick leave. You have to remind them that breaks are required by law. Shall I go on or do you love this job already? Your attitude suggests you are too old, white and overqualified anyway. Unions exist because people rarely do the right thing when there is money involved. We need them now more than ever.

Anne

Unions exist because people rarely do the right thing when there is money involved.

Maybe once upon a time. Today they exist to collect your dues as a war chest to influence politicians. So you say the standard " What about the Repubs, the Tea Party, the ... whatever group that you're PO'd over?" Here's the deal, those contributions are VOLUNTARY. You Lefties are the only people I know that get PO'd if someone ISN'T taking your money!

Perhaps Anne..., you need the education that would lead to a more productive, and thus lucrative, career path...

It's called PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

I'm in the middle as far as Dems and Reps go but why this concept is so far beyond people boggles my mind.

Stop whining about what you're SUPPOSEDLY entitled to!! You're only entitled to what you've EARNED. If you have a crappy job, look for another one! Why would you stay at something that barely covers your month-to-month bills and continue to whine about it? Help yourself first instead of expecting everyone else to do it for you!!

you need the education that would lead to a more productive, and thus lucrative, career path...

Guess what...my daughter is about a year away from a teacher's degree. When she graduates, she will owe about $40,000. Maybe she should get a "more productive, and thus lucrative, career path..."

Yeah, and maybe she can go to work on Wall Street :(

"What an ignorant PIG! Blinded by the RICH FAT FUX that will screw their own mother for a nickel!"

Wow... Hate much Groucheeoleman? You may disagree with the guy, but wow. Sway many people to your side of a discussion (if you can call simply insulting anyone who disagrees with you a discusison) with those debating skills?

The next job cut, benefit cut and retirement account seizure is yours.

No arguments. No recourse. No court date.

BIG BROTHER decided you and your thug right-wingers were no longer useful to THE CAUSE so you don't deserve any rights, wages or benefits.

It was decided by a BIG BUSINESS money man and the governor, your governor, that Bill of Houston would be given a job on an oil platform, flown out there and fired on the spot. Now get home to Houston, Bill.

Swim. It is your right to swim. And carry all the guns you want as you swim. But you do NOT have a right to appeal, work, retire or have an education, health care or an infrastructure to get you to and from the corner you stand on to beg alms from the rich right-wingers who just threw you onto the trash heap.

You said "Let them eat cake." The last person who said that was Maria Antionette. Why would you want your ideology associated with such an elitist like her. Wasn't she beheaded? Why would you want to associate yourself with such an infamous thought. Do you think Antionette was right in her sentiment. Do you think King Louis XVI was right to ignore the will of the French Middle class.

You think Unions are unfair, what's unfair is that top 400 people have accumulated more total wealth than the bottom 50% of this country's income earners combined.

I'm for business, but that's immoral. What don't you hate on people like that. If you thought Corporate thugs like the Koch's should eat cake that would laughable because they don't have to worry about such things.
They're rich and do nothing for all the wealth they accumulate except master principles of leverage. That's it.

What do they actually create besides leverage for themselves? Let's those guys eat cake. Not people in unions. Are you kidding?

You say teachers should get a private school job. I think you should stop hating on people in unions and form your own.

Unions contribute to political leaders campaigns just like corporations. They only difference is that corporations pay massive amounts more that unions could ever afford. If you don't support undue influence of money in politics, you need to start with corps first. Their money trail is longer as their pockets are much deeper than unions.

Every day the unnecessary beaureaucrat governmant and union employees spend time protesting proves how very unnecessary the beaureaucrat government and union employees are.

Day by day proving more and more how absolutely unnecessary some of these so called jobs are. Eliminate them, so the unnecessary beaureaucrats will at least not be paid with money stolen from hard-working taxpayers while they continue to prove how utterly unnecessary they are.

Joe Margolis

Unions contribute to political leaders campaigns just like corporations. They only difference is that corporations pay massive amounts more that unions could ever afford. If you don't support undue influence of money in politics, you need to start with corps first. Their money trail is longer as their pockets are much deeper than unions.

For decades unions had the upper hand in donations, now corps. can donate too, it seems to me that what bothers you is that corps. have more money. I didnt hear any crying from the left when unions had the upper hand, but I hear plenty of crying now.

@Joe. Instead of arguing that you are entitled to the wealth that someone else has accumulated (you aren't, by the way) you have the right in this country to go out and apply your talent, effort and resources and create wealth of your own. It's called free enterprise, it's the envy of the world and I invite you to participate.

We need them now more than ever.

Seriously, Anne-1349887, did you really just post that?

If we "need" unions "now more than ever" why has theire membership been declining for the last 40 years?!

Maybe they were necessary in the 1920s or 1930s when there were no labor laws, but those laws have been in existance since.

The workers and companies of America realize how unnecessary the unions are, more and more every year.

The non-union workers of the country in the private sector (the VAST majority) and the federal union workers don't have collective bargaining for wages, hours, benefits, etc....how have they managed all these years? Why is it state employees (and of only certain states, no less) need collective bargaining when everyone else doesn't?

While the above question isn't meant to be rhetroical, I'm sure no one who's screaming about this WI legislation will answer. The reason? They can't.

Thanks BoBo You beat me to it!

Bill in Houston - You are my hero...and a great American. Well stated.

Why would anyone that has; worked hard to get an education, gain experience and perform well, want to participate in collective bargaining in the first place?

If you are a solid performer, then the collective group is only going to drag you down...down to be part of an average. So all of your efforts will be watered down by those that don't work as hard, those that don't perform as well.

Wake up hard working Americans...and stand to be measured for your own contributions! That's what the middle class is all about...that's what America is all about.

Kills me to hear people say unions have no place in today's world.

This (what is happening in Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio and other states) is exactly why we need unions! The goals of big business is, and will always be, the same as it was in the 1800's to exploit the worker as much as possible to further their bottom line.

Happy -- here's your answer. Sorry to disappoint you -- (Not really, just trying to be polite.)

Reagan. Thirty years ago, unions were thriving. The middle class was thriving. That was NOT a coincidence. Big money got a movie star into the hot seat, Reagan happily busted the air traffic controllers -- public safety be damned! --and the corporations began cranking up the right wing in a long campaign to destroy the unions in this country. Year after year, issue after issue, billions of dollars were poured into this fight by corporations who ONLY have their bottom line in sight -- not the future of your kids, much less grandkids, not YOUR job, health, or security. Monied interests fueled campaigns at every level. No Child Left Behind insured a generation of graduates who know nothing about the real world -- who has time to teach Civics or Ethics or American History? trash the curriculum and stifle all intellectual curiosity! -- and also , two for one, insured contempt for teachers who have been trapped into Teaching to the Test instead of developing the true potentrial of their students.

Haven't you seen that laws can be overturned with the flick of a pen? That no amount of protesting will keep a corrupt governing body from doing away with those labor laws you mention? Not when the corporations are pouring millions and billions into the pockets of that body.

Annie was correct in everything she said. Just because you don't KNOW you need representation, doesn't mean you aren't entitled to it. We have a voice, and a vote. And that is what makes this country the best place in the world.

Bill in Houston you don't know what you are talking about. But that is no surprise to me. Huston is the Arm pit of this country. You people down there don't care about the air they breath, the water they drink unless its imported form somewhere else. And god knows you don't care about the land. Anyone that has not been to TX. when you get about 40 miles from Tex arcana you can smell the chemicals, your eyes start to water and you need a gas mask. Talk about @!$%#ting where you eat. That is E. TX. Everyone talks about free enterprise. I say BS to that. There is no such thing. When someone comes up with a great Idle like intermittent windshield wipers, the big guys steel it and use it and don't pay. Ford did that. They have the power and connections to get away with it. Look at Tucker Motor company. Many of the safety idles we have to day came from Tucker. But the Big three wasn't about to let him start a new car company. They pulled there strings and bought off some officials and Stopped Tucker in is tracts. Don't tell me about free Enterprise. That is like saying we have fare trade in this country. We all know better.

GOD you people are ignorant. You think those of us who see the ongoing destruction of the middle class aren't productive workers? WRONG. The people who are more likely to need the safety net don't usually even get too involved in politics. We are YOU. The rich are controlling you and you don't even know you are being manipulated.

Why are you all defending the the ones that hold all the power against regular people?

http://www.businessinsider.com/15-charts-about-wealth-and-inequality-in-america-2010-4?op=1

Congratulation, Chuck! You have very eloquently stated the Economic Theory of Looters and Thieves. To paraphrase:

"How can a little guy like me possibly compete against an established company? It's not fair! They are too big, successful, etc. for me to even have a chance."

Does that sound about right? It's not hard to see why you resent your fellow Americans who succeeded where you have not even had the courage to make the attempt. And furthurmore, it's not hard to see how easily you could convince yourself that this wealth was somehow accumulated immorally which would therefore entitle you to confiscate it. America was built on the innovation, creativity and effort of people who tried and succeeded in spite of these things. It is available to you too. Smaller, more nimble companies have a myriad of advantages against larger, more entrenched corporate interests. But it starts with an attitude that you seem to lack. You can't blame your weaknesses on those who don't share them. But you CAN overcome your weaknesses. The world belongs to such as these.

Let the union thugs eat cake. Walker is my hero and I hope more states follow his lead.

Maybe he will move to Houston after he is thrown out of office next year.

If we "need" unions "now more than ever" why has theire membership been declining for the last 40 years?!

Easy, " right to work" for less laws effectively destroyed collective bargaining in many areas of the country.

Anne - "The place I work has public sector jobs open. You start at minimum wage and once every few years you get a quarter raise. The health insurance costs about a third of your wages and has a $5,000 deductible. There is no sick leave. You have to remind them that breaks are required by law. Shall I go on or do you love this job already? Your attitude suggests you are too old, white and overqualified anyway. Unions exist because people rarely do the right thing when there is money involved. We need them now more than ever."

I would LOVE for you to go on - or more so - i would LOVE to know what that job is - because i dont beleive it unless its part time intern - i would LOVE to know what place has private sector jobs that are worse than a fast food worker yet has very nice public jobs. Heck, Walmart - which is the devil per union people- treat their employees MUCH better than what you are describing.

Also, why would you discriminate against the elderly, whites, or people with education? Thats not very fair of you, is it? Isnt that the exact opposite of the purpose of the unions your trying to promote? Or do they discriminate against you if your old, white, or educated?

I call BS on your post, because you would have to be mentally handicapped to even consider that job over fast food/gas station attendant - over ANY job that exists.

I guess Bill doesn't know what happened to Marie Antoinette. A fitting end to an entitled elitist like himself.

Joe. Instead of arguing that you are entitled to the wealth that someone else has accumulated (you aren't, by the way)

Joe may not be entitled to somebody elses wealth and no one is saying they should be thats just right wing ditto head BS which it appears you have succumbed to. I would suggest you take a long look at how Capitalism works. There you will find the accumulated wealth from capitalism is to be used to keep capitalism strong by reinvesting in it to produce jobs., Since that is not happening then no they are not entitled to it either. This is not a winner take all and forget the rest of the people like you and others think. Your right wing post makes no sense and only stupid people believe what you are saying. Btw strong unions to protect the workers is also part of capitalism but the right would like us to forget that.

Right to work laws in the south? Well since their inception almost every red state takes more from the federal government than they pay in. Nice claim you are protecting taxpayers while you use all the money.

Lib50 - "GOD you people are ignorant. You think those of us who see the ongoing destruction of the middle class aren't productive workers? WRONG. The people who are more likely to need the safety net don't usually even get too involved in politics. We are YOU. The rich are controlling you and you don't even know you are being manipulated. "

Personally, im not saying anyone is or is not a productive worker. Im saying IM a VERY productive worker, moreso then most of my co-workers. Anyone that IS a productive worker, beyond blind union loyalty, would be against collective bargining. If you (a hypothetical you, not you Lib50) are an excellent worker, then negotiating for your benefits/raise on a whole, your actually lowering your stock. Your raise is now being decided on using the people who are less productive than you. If you negotiated on YOUR merits and performance- you would be much better off. The only way the collective bargaining benefits you, is if you are a subpar worker. You are thereby benefiting from the more productive/efficient workers.

With that being said, what is the purpose then for working hard? What is the purpose of going the extra mile to differentiate yourself from your co-workers? With the collective bargaining mindset- there isnt one. It breeds mediocrity. That isnt what America stands for. America stands for excellence. America stands for quality. Unions, work towards mediocrity, for the lowest common denominator - as there is no benefit for applying yourself further than the minimum.

I dont have problems with Unions- as long as i can opt out of it and keep my money in my pocket. If others wish to band together - then fine, but for me personally -the union hurts me, not help. But that can only speak for myself.

Paul you don't know what you are talking about. I started my own business in 1985. I ran it through the ups and downs for 35 years. I now how it feels to go up against the big boys that have slanted the laws to protect them from having to have honest competition. Hell they weren't going to let a little guy have a chance to get big. That would mean competition. We might have to actually bid to get work like I had to do. I have had to deal with Inspectors that were dirty want kick backs or they would but a stop work order on my project. I have had state safety inspectors stop on my jobs and make big deals about un safe scaffolding, Making me spend thousands of dollars to fix the problem and after I spent the money to fix the problem they still wouldn't ok the repair. Don't tell me I lacked the courage to try. I might have been a small business but I had 12 men working full time for me. And the Suppliers and there workers also. That is not much. How many people have you provided jobs for Paul???? How much courage have you shown Paul.

Easy, " right to work" for less laws effectively destroyed collective bargaining in many areas of the country.

Seriously? That's your lame attempt at a response?

Well, you should have known this question would follow: Why do only workers in only certain states need collective bargaining, when federal employees and non-unionized private sector workers (and state workers in other states) don't? These groups I've mentioned seem to be surviving, even thriving, (some failing, like in all walks of life) and have been for quite some time...why is it they can make a living when they don't have collective bargaining?

Chuck - Learn how to spell and write a coherent sentence. Then you can spew your bs about Houston and Texas.

Public empoloyees in Washington, D.C. do not have collective bargaining.

And the "working man's friend" Michael Moore, millionaire extrodinarie, refused to hire union workers for his film crews. He's EXPLOITING these people in WI. He's hypocrite.

Wow...I had to search for my previous comment. #3.31 It was collapsed within minutes. Freedom of speech for liberals. Censor conservatives. Is that how it goes?

You all really need to read what the Union Leaders are pulling down in salaries before you bad mouth the private sector. Read this article.

http://detnews.com/article/20070814/BIZ/708140392/Labor-bosses-don-t-share-workers--pain

Here's a hint. Learn the word plutocracy since it's where we're headed, Estfan. The Republican utopia is a complete nightmare for 90% of America.

They have no place in a civil society

So you think protests have no place in civil society???

Dude, I never want to live in your idea of a society then...

He must have been home-schooled.

Funny how everyone talks about greed when the unions really want more money for dues and people want wage hikes. Let's be open here - it's all about money!

Yes it really is all about money. That's the point, money provides our security. When we're denied basic levels of that security we protest.

Walker will go the way of Sarah Palin in Alaska. He will not be the Governor of WI in 2012 be assured of that. The people of WI will fire him as soon as they can, if not before. I think he might be removed by his own illegal doings. That would be so great. I keep saying, Pride go before the fall. His preacher daddy should have tough him that.

You must live in Russia esfan

Next they should petition for a vote on repeal of the law just passed as it was not debated at all.

Wish I was bussed, paid and housed to protest the Union.

ROCKFORD (WIFR) -- Union members from Winnebago and Boone counties traveled north together at around ten Saturday morning when the group joined thousands of protesters. Members say they want to support public sector employees in their battle to keep collective bargaining rights.

Union member Matt Swanson says, "What they are doing there could affect us all, and it's not something that anyone would like to see for any union group. They should all have their right for collective bargaining."

The protest extended into Machesney Park where dozens of protesters rallied on the corner of 173 and 251 Saturday morning. The group is a part of moveON.org. Participants say they want Wisconsin workers to know they're supported in Illinois.

Union supporter Clarissa Lagerstem says, "I am so glad that people as far as Washington are willing to come to our capitol in Madison and tell America how we feel.".........

do you people have ANY idea what teachers make outside of a union envoronment? I work for a non-profit we hire people with teaching degrees to run after school and before school childcare and summer camp...and those are barely paid over minimum wage...they work more hours than a teacher, and have similiar responsibilities, have the same educational requirements but are about half what a teacher makes AND they work summers..

and yes we do need unions now more than ever, with bigger and bigger companies paying less to its average worker, not supplying benefits and then running competition out of business...really all you who think no unions is a good thing, you are really just idiots...as unions have lost membership, wages and benefits for the average worker have declined, and the CEO's make millions and millions, even if their company had a bad year...

Wow...I had to search for my previous comment. #3.31 It was collapsed within minutes. Freedom of speech for liberals. Censor conservatives. Is that how it goes?

Maybe Governor Walker should to have one of his corporations that back him clean the State Capital at an infliated price, of course. There is no such thing as competetive bids for a job in Wisconsin. Oh My Gosh- I forgot!! Walker does NOT want the average American worker to be able to gain access to the State Capital! Estfan must own his own cleaning company and getting a tax break. Things that make you go hmmmmm

Estfan, I do believe that if you stick around awhile, you'll get the Plutocracy you so desire wherein the common people, such that we are, will have no rights to do anything about what is or is not done them, and where your Constitutional Rights will be amended to such a degree that they won't be worth the paper they are written on.

Alternately, I would be happy to provide you with numerous destinations, such a Lybia, Saudi Arabia and an unholy host of others, where peaceful protests for issues pertaining to basic human rights, fair pay and equality on both gender and racial issues, etc.,will be met with the fire power of the Plutocratic government you seem to revere. You will get what you get and you will LIKE it, or you will be deemed a dissident and, consequently, beaten, imprisoned and, eventually, eliminated altogether along with your family, friends and anyone else who happens to sympathize with you.

Well? What are you waiting for? Get up and GIT! Let us know how that works out for you and yours, okay? Just don't call on US to come and airlift your browbeaten azz outta there when it's becomes apparent that you've made one HAAAAUGE mistake.

Thank you Tac, I love how non-union people bash union members because they supposedly know the facts. Union membership per public record has shrunk from 33% in the 1950's to 13% NATIONALLY today. So union workers make up only 13% of the total work force nationally versus the private sector. Union workers contribute OUT OF THEIR WAGES JUST LIKE PRIVATE SECTOR WORKERS into pension funds, and towards medical benefits. Unlike some PRIVATE SECTOR EMPLOYERS who OFFER MATCHED WITH A YEARLY CAP PENSION CONTRIBUTIONS, and HMO MEDICAL INSURANCE WITH THE OPTION OF PPO PLANS. Union membership dues help pay for the union leadership, benefit processing, certification, and yes apprenticeship programs, including certification/education/ continued updated training to remain employable. I know some asking potential apprentice candidates to have an Associates College Degree before applying. If some had done their homework they would also know certain apprenticeship programs are now accepting applications.

Additionally, teacher requirements albeit vary from state to state but before bashing them or their union do a little homework. Teachers in all states must achieve a 4yr. college degree with an "endorsement," to teach. Many per UNION AGREEMENTS are REQUIRED to YEARLY MAINTAIN THEIR CERTIFICATION. This certification can be in the form of required attendance at workshops during or following the school year. Teachers are educated and mandated to maintain certification to be/remian employed period.

I think the only one element that the public would like to see changed is teacher tenure. Many states provide employment protection to teachers after a given period of time working. If teacher contracts were to remove those protections probably there would be little argument about them or their union. Most people would prefer private business HR policies to automatic tenure based on time worked.

estvan- The reason we have a civilized society is because we had unions that fought for the rights of workers. All of the laws that protect workers in our society and created living wages were the result of the union movement- child labor laws, safe working environments, 40 hour work week, access to health care, minimum wage, and paid vacations and retirement benefits. You claim that unions don't belong in a civilized society, yet you would be living in a serfdom society without them. Why don't you examine why there is such an onslaught on workers' rights in our society? The answer is that those who have the money want to make sure that you don't get any of it, and to ensure their goal, they create an artificial bogeyman, union workers, as the ones to blame. Why don't you look more closely at who is pulling the strings?

Estfan-

What "damages to public property?" Taping posters to walls?

If anyone should be billed for anything it's Gov. Wlaker for ordering all those extra police to the Capital. And I bet many of them got overtime @ time & a half because they're still in a union.

But not for long according to you since you want to "outlaw" ALL unions!

Why do you think the union percentage became 13%? It is because the union bosses turned into a bigger albatross on the workers than the companies. Public sector workers are paid with taxpayer funds, so any strike the public union called would be a strike at my/your pocketbooks. We taxpayers have no seat at the negotiating table.

Dasvet-

The primary causes of declining union membership are a weak economy impacting manufacturing & construction industries more than the overall economy as well as corporations taking tax breaks and then turning around and shipping the same jobs overseas that the tax breaks were intended to protect.

If total union membership is currently at 12% of the US workforce, then public union membership is probably only around 3%-5% of the US workforce. Considering that Gov. Walker excluded some large unions from his "budget bill", does he really think that cutting wages & benefits on 2%-3% of WI workers will really do much to offset a projected $3.6B projected budget deficit over the next 2 years?

Of course not. This move was just his first to squeeze everything he can get out of all WI public workers. With unions weakened, wages & benefits will decrease for private sector workers also.

‎"We must close union offices, confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison. We must reduce workers' salaries and take away their right to strike." - Adolph Hitler, May 2, 1933 or did Gov Walker say it. I get the two confused

If you are really worth what your union salary is paying, you'll have no worries. Right ? The louder they protest, the more convinced I am they know they're grossly overcompensated.

So the 14 cowards finally showed up. They let others take the heat, confront the governor then when the fight is lost, they show up as heroes? I guess the nickname for Wisconites should be suckers. They will still be suckers when they elect another democrat that spends them into oblivion. You all had better learn Chinese soon, that will be our national language in about 20 years.

fireshrek - It was neither, and we know you are confused. People who want to lend some sense of credence to their own position yet have no supportable position of their own often result to comparing their opposition to nazi's or Hitler.

You are a greedy coward who is terrified at having to earn his own worth because you know your own worth is not much and therefore in your feeble mind feel you are entitled to the earnings of others.

P.S.

"I get the two confused"

- Adolph Hitler March 24th 1944, fireshrek March 12th 2011

You all really need to read what the Union Leaders are pulling down in salaries before you bad mouth the private sector. Read this article.

http://detnews.com/article/20070814/BIZ/708140392/Labor-bosses-don-t-share-workers--pain

Jimmy--

"Wish I was bussed, paid and housed to protest the Union."

What were they paid?

"Through...grassroots methodology, MoveOn collaborates with groups like Meetup.com..."

--Wikipedia entry on Moveon.org

Meanwhile...

Stand-With-Walker signs are sponsored by "Americans for Prosperity," "a group fronting special interests started by oil billionaire David Koch and Richard Fink (a member of the board of directors of Koch Industries)."

-sourcewatch

Logdump.....It COULD have been debated had the Democrats done their jobs and not taken to the hills. They made their bed, now let them lay in it.

They seem to use the hiding manuver whenever they want to avoid playing fair, like grownups. Just like the did when they voted on and signed the HCR Bill...privately, at night, on Christmas Eve, all on the Q.T. Didn't even take the time to read it they were in such a hurry to jam it through. They taught the Republicans well. Just following their example. They can dish it out, but they can't take so they cry like the babies they are when they were trumped. And all due to their own irresponsible tantrum.

Kryss...According to an article from AOL, the Koch brothers have absolutely nothing to do with this Wisconsin thing. No monies, no participation. And they aren't Republican, they are Libertarian/Independent in their views.

Cardog, The market determines true value. It can only be falsely manipulated for so long before adjusting back to true.

Miss H,

Oh My Gosh- I forgot!! Walker does NOT want the average American worker to be able to gain access to the State Capital!

If you mean by "average American worker" the pieces of excrement that trashed the capitol building to the tune of $350,000? Those "average American workers?" Then you would be correct.

tyler: You cannot stand the truth?

and I want the money them and their friends stole from the economy put back where it belongs and I want them in jail .......NOW

Joe,

OK this is illogical ... Corporations (those rotteny old straw dogs you throw around to generate your hate) HIRE people that pay TAXES in order to FUND the public sector. Where do you think the money comes from? Wisconsin, unlike the Feds don't have a printing press. Who you going to tax when there's 100% in public sector and 0% in private sector? How's that work? What are you going to buy with a million dollar paycheck when the dollar is worth nothing? Yep! You taught those SOBs a lesson or two.

But I get it. You're PO'd!

Astonished,

I am astonished about your interesting take on the existence of corporations. You think they exist so people can work for them....

I think they exist because WE LET them exist...and because we let them exist they need to follow our rules, not brainwash people to change the rules for them.

Wow, the more i think about what you say about corporations, the more i pity you...

We the corporations,

Hey! Join! Free country! Have at it! Just don't ask me to support the collection of your dues by a state government. You like it? Go for it! You join. You pay. I'm fine!

You can do anything in WI that the Federal employees can do. If you like that way of living and can't figure out a better way, it's your life!

Actually..., they exist to provide profit..., and therefore ROI to their shareholders... A world without corporations is a world without investment or growth.

I don't think the phrase We the Corporations appears anywhere in the Constitution................show me where it is

your now paying 5% towards your own pension and 12% of your families health insurance costs and you won't have the union dues drafted from your pay? WTF the problem? We always here you need to be compensated like the private sector to attract the best talent when in fact your better compensated than the private sector and when asked to contibute a small percentage of your income towards your benefits all hell breaks loose. If you don't like it get lost and go find another job! There are plenty of better qualified applicants that would take you're sweet heart deals in a second. Union extortation is hopefuly on it's way out!!!

Kathryn,

Nice try but neither does we the SEIU or AFL-CIO ...

You're free to join. You're free to Assemble, you're free to speak. Got it! But it doesn't say ... "and Oh, buy the way, I'm collecting your dues from you and sending to your Union.

Corporations (those rotteny old straw dogs you throw around to generate your hate) HIRE people that pay TAXES in order to FUND the public sector. Where do you think the money comes from?

I'm sorry...when did public sector workers get to STOP PAYING taxes? Oh, that's right, they pay taxes, just like the private sector workers. Seems the only ones getting tax breaks are the CORPORATIONS.

Rich people use money to create things, poor people only know how to spend it, thats why theyre poor in the first place. You can take the rich peoples money away, but what are you going to do when you run out of other peoples money and there's no one left to rob.

"Let them eat cake" An ironic statement being that those are the exact words used by Marie Antoinette shortly before the oppressed middle class dragged her from her castle and chopped off her head.

How much of the budget deficit was plugged by all of the Wisconsin senators taking a salary and benefit cut again?

genafan

I'm sorry...when did public sector workers get to STOP PAYING taxes?

Didn't say that! What I said (or hoped you get) is that the payroll of pubic sector job is funded by the government treasury. Yes, you pay taxes but that is kid of "recycled' if you will ... kind of I'll give you $10 if you give me back $4.

On the other hand, private sector still pays that $4 into the pot (that you get paid with), but it's origin is in goods and services created external to the government. That job is paid through wealth creation as opposed to wealth supported.

Actually there is no credible witness to M. Antoinette saying that and the phrase predated her by at least 100 years. She get's credit cause the French aristocracy was out of touch and abusing the underclasses. Also the rumor that a few of those aristocrates escaped to the US and founded what was to become the Republican Party is also not something that can be proven, but sure sounds plausible.

On the other hand, private sector still pays that $4 into the pot (that you get paid with),

For what it's worth, Astonished, I happen to be a member of the "private sector". I pay taxes, just the way the "public sector" does. Here's a thought...maybe, if "my" taxes pay their salaries, "their" taxes pay for the road I drive on to get to work.

But then again, it don't really work like that, does it?

Insanity squared out here today.

Poor people spend money -- that's what makes them poor? Oh my God, please sit down before your big head pulls you over.

Poor people spend money -- and that's what drives our economy. Not "trickle-down" and not business, big or small. Consumption is what drives this economy. This is why unemployment benefits, that go directly back into the local economy for food, rent, sundries, offers the best "bang for the buck" of any stimulative monies, almost two for one -- while money going to some corporate head goes to an offshore account. Who does that help?

When the middle class were the middle class, before the slide into poverty that began with Reagan, our economy was healthy -- under Clinton, the depredations that Reagan had created were somewhat corrected, and the economy expanded in all directions -- including the business sector. 12 years of GOP rule, and the middle class is dead, while corporations are having the time of their lives. Why hasn't that money trickled down? Because that's not what corporations do. They MAKE money, and their investments have nothing to do with American jobs, but with investments and speculations that often do the reverse and harm our own economy.

Insanity squared. Some of them HAVE to be paid trolls. I hate the thought that so many of my fellow Americans hate America so much.

Less understand one thing. There where no Corp. here in America when we got here. They followed us from across the pond. Hell the civil war was pushed by none other then England. Keep slavery so cheap cotton could be sent back to England. We couldn't do anything with it here. We thought we were getting away from taxation without representation. Will when the English Corp. followed us to America, the English laws followed. These Corp.'s picked right up where they left off in England. Buying off politions steeling and plundering. Look at the rail roads. Mining anything. When they started hydro minning for gold. They were killing off the farm land below. But who cares about the farmer, There was gold for others to get rich off. Hell it has gone on like that here for 200 years or more. Corp's have no morals and only think of one thing, How can we get richer, Nothing else matters. And If you think Corp's gave a dam what is good for America think again.

Ever since Ronald Reagan said "greed is good" and gave the corp's tax breaks to go overseas the working middle class has lost whatever security it had. We will now have to take it back......because as chuch said the corporations don't give a damn about us or this country. When they steal all our treasure they will just move on.

Republicans are like cockroaches if you ignore them for awhile they overrun the place and are just as useless.

Corporations : We need lower taxes so we can create jobs

Corporations: We need to lower wages so we can create jobs

Corporations : We need subsidies so we can create jobs

Sounds to me like capitalism isn't working out too well for them. If they can't afford to successfully run their businesses without sucking off tax payer dime then perhaps they should be left to go out of business like any small business would.

Look what giving them what they want has gotten us so far -

1.2 million jobs overseas created last year. Less than a million here.

Yeah they deserve all this adoration and praise for creating jobs. :/

I think when corporations start COSTING us jobs it is time to take them off the tax payer teat and let them sink. In a capitalist society it won't be long before someone does the job they obviously can't. Right?

For those that post that corporations provide jobs - where?

In China, Thailand, Indonesia, Bahrain, Singapore, etc etc etc etc. And for the few American workers left here - they now will work at the same rate as those countries above because they have no bargaining rights.

I'll take unions, thank you. At least SOMEONE is representing me - the little guy - it certainly isn't our lawmakers.

Eris2010

Good Comments. This entire thing is about RIGHTS. The unions were willing to give back the money that Walker wanted. But he still wanted to TAKE THEIR RIGHTS away. What the public employees do with those rights is immaterial. They have a RIGHT to representation in the legislature and with the union. RIGHTS that's what this is about. What right are any of you willing to give up? All of you seem to want to retain the right of Free Speech.

All of the benefits that the public employees got were negotiated. The employees agreed to the benefits, the government agreed.

Now is the time to SHARE the pain. Corporations have received benefits and now they should be giving back. They promised jobs if they got the tax break benefits, but where are the jobs.

I am not jealous of anyone that did better than me, they had the RIGHT to do so. But just don't take Rights away from me or others.

genafan

For what it's worth, Astonished, I happen to be a member of the "private sector". I pay taxes, just the way the "public sector" does. Here's a thought...maybe, if "my" taxes pay their salaries, "their" taxes pay for the road I drive on to get to work.

!00% of those salaries, including the taxes that are withheld from you, for public sector employee's are paid for by private sector employee's. So you are not paying anything into the system at all. The amount of the taxes is just an on paper only number kept by the state that shows how much the real taxpayers didn't have to shell out for them. So their "taxes" didn't pay for anything. In fact, their "taxes" cost the real tax payer's by having to hire people to keep track of the paper.

In fact, it is the federal government that wins by also taxing the amount of money you are declared to have made on paper. The real taxpayers are also paying your federal, unemployment, SS taxes.

Astonished: Your post 5.7 is one of the best I ever read. Folks, go back and read it. It is the game, and match point for this entire discussion back to 1.1 and beyond.

Great work Astonished. You're the man!- er, person (don't want to be non-PC here, the comment might get collapsed by the PC, union community). hehehe

These rediculous corporate fear mongering posts never cease to amaze me. Maybe if you actually understood what a corporation was, you wouldn't have to look like such idiots in public on the internet. A corporation is a company owned by many many many people who are shareholders, operated by many many many employees, who gets their money from the even more numerous people like YOU who buy their products and give them your money. And guess what, you could have used that same money to buy a stock in their company, and then you would own part of it.

A corporation only succeeds if it has a good product or service that people buy, and therefore can attract outside investors. They are not some nebulous evil force of the universe out to corrupt the world. If you don't like them, don't buy their products, buy local, but guess what YOU WON'T, because the products they make are cheaper and sometimes even better for less money!

Another fool who knows nothing about what he's talking about .

hiap,

FYI: a corporation is a legal construct that puts a firewall between a company's liability and the owners' personal property. The majority of corporations are small privately held, S-corps, LLCs and are not owned by "many, many, many people". Corporations per se are not evil, however, large publicly held corporations, operating solely in their self interest, use their vast resources to influence politics and society to remove obstacles to increasing their profits. These obstacles are very often product, employee and environmental safety regulations, anti-trust laws and the reasonable taxes that support the infrastructure of the commons that provides them the roads, rail, air transport, utilities and services and an educated workforce. The corporations that we are all concerned are those that look solely to their short term gain and not to long term sustainability nor to "establish justice" nor "promote the general welfare" nor even "insure domestic tranquility". All corporations are not evil but the ones at the center of controversy are certainly not our benefactors.

Joe, America is a REPUBLIC not a DEMOCRACY. Now please step down off that soap box before you "dumb down" anyone else....

hiap

Yeah we could own shares like those poor schmucks did with Enron.

Thanks but no thanks.

Shouldn't people who claim to be the "working class" actually be working instead of whining?

I hope they all get fired, unfortunately for society and their co-workers union thugs will probably keep them in their positions until they reach old-age.

You all really need to read what the Union Leaders are pulling down in salaries before you bad mouth the private sector. Read this article.

http://detnews.com/article/20070814/BIZ/708140392/Labor-bosses-don-t-share-workers--pain

Private sector workers have the same guarantees that public sector workers have. They simply choose not to execute them for fear of losing their jobs. Rather than demanding more from their employers, they consistently accept less and less and act as if it is a privilege to just have a job period.

PRIVATE SECTOR EMPLOYEES: it is your OWN DAMN FAULT you don't enjoy the same guarantees that public sector workers enjoy. They are not sucking off the teet of anything. You are simply accepting the short-changed @!$%# you've been handed without a fight.

Stop vilifying public sector workers and stand up to your employers and demand better pay, benefits, working conditions, vacations, days off, etc. Unions fought for everyone to have these rights and guarantees.

GOOD JOB private sector: you've accepted less for so long that now that you've gotten stuck in the hole you dug, you want to drag us all down into it with you. We the people are not slaves of a 3rd world country. We will not accept that life and neither should you.

There's no "right" to unionize in the Constitution nor natural law. The Wisc legislature granted the privilege; they can take it away. (As will other states.)

Wake up, whiners!

Since Joe doesn't know his country is not a democracy, as pointed out above, chances are he also doesn't know unions are socialist (communist) and they have historically been proponents of deadly racism (against all non-whites). Leadership has devolved, not evolved, from there.

Unions' lack valid pro-American political philosophies; some members may profess it but the hierarchy does not/never has. Their demise is necessary and proper.

Unions no longer have salience, relevance or validity in the world economy. They went out of necessity with the Bolsheviks.

Where was all your outrage when Obama slammed his bills through office without regard of the Republicans or the Independents. I personally have no sympathy for you and you can be my next vote will be again for our Governor.

Now we can finally get rid of terrible teachers, cut out promotion by senority and for promation and finally we see the good teachers advanced and the bad ones gone. Now the next thing is that the teachers should start getting at least a 25% of a raise after the system is cleaned up.

Finally, I have looked up the laws for the conduct of Wisconsin State Senators and leaving the job and not fulfilling their duties they can be brought up for impeachment, I personally hopes this happens and then they will be barred from public service for life.

Tbenton;

I think you will see that in order to expel a sitting Senator, the Senate would require a 2/3 vote of the Senate. Since there are 14 Democrats, they can not amass a Quorum. Sorry I don't think that they could possibly get anything worse than a Reprimand. And a Reprimand from the Republican Senate Majority Leader would probably be worn as a badge of honor by the Democratic Senators.

Mostly moronic U of Wis. college students and other imported protesters. What a joke. Go home already losers. Wisconsin public sector union controlled workers have some of the highest wages and most insanelyy generous fringe benefits in the nation. Time to get a grip whiners. The voters in WI wanted change and they got it big time. Scott Walker - greatest WI gov ever! Maybe best US gov ever! Award this man the Presidential Medal of Freedom!!! NO MORE PUBLIC SECTOR UNIONS. They are bankrupting America!

Tbenton, I think you might be missing the bigger picture here. This is a systematic deconstruct of the private workforce to lower working standards and worker expectations overall. This fiscal "emergency" has been manufactured to create an environment where friends and neighbors point the finger at one another as the problem. The problem lies in greed. How in the world can teachers be "living high on the hog" so to speak while billionaires who own corporations systematically strip workers of any and all privileges and guarantees, cry foul over the price to do business in America all the while reaping unprecedented profits as never seen before? What more can a billionaire tycoon want than more money? Power. Power over us all and if they can get us to turn on one another, then they can level the playing field which doesn't need leveling at all. We all need to stand together and demand more of our employers, not less.

Joe,

A couple of years ago forbes said 53 % of millionaires are dems. These big bad corporation you talk of...think any dems run those companies? I would bet yes! another thing...dems bash corps...but then invest thier pensions and 401 k's into them...oh yeah...now they can make all kinds of money, right?

I read a post earlier that the rich don't pay taxes???? has anyone heard the 80/20 income tax payers...top 20 % earners pay 80 % of all income taxes...how can that be? If the rich don't pay taxes...anyone who is confused about how little the rich pay...call an accountant, ask them...anyone heard of ALT MIN? what a joke!

VT - you are absolutely correct. But facts are hard for too many here to understand. And the Alternative Minimum Tax is nothing short of highway robbery by the government!

Logdump, I'm surprised that even a dumb Democrat would post what you did. They need to shorten your rec period.

E of T,

when you say greed? do you mean employees who always want more and working less? greed is not the problem. Education and decision making is the problem. Slow down everybody, don't work too hard! this is not a slogan of the compnay owner or manager! Education, folks, education! i don't mean free handouts, i mean decision making. Should i spend more than i make? Should i go back to school to become a doctor or dentist. I heard a something 1-2 years ago. Back then, the article said in the next 10 years, the US would have to import workers to fill 60-70 % of all professional educated jobs, doctors, dentists, accountants. So let me tell ya, if that is true, i think we all better set the bar a little higher (be more greedy) when it comes to working hard in school, to go get these high paying jobs.

This idea that the 14 democrats who left the state to block the passing of a law that attacks the middle class were getting paid for not doing anything is ludicrous...............

they were doing exactly what the people wanted them to do........trying to protect the middle class and the hard fought for union rights...

they were working while not on the floor of the capital building where their only purpose would have been to take up space in order to form a quorum..

putting the breaks on the passage of this "for political use only" union busting law was exactly what the dems were being paid to do............

thank you to the 14 democrats who refused to be bullied...

and thank you to all those who work to recall the 18 republicans and the one governor who are working to strip the middle classes ability to survive and fighting to make the wealthiest pay their fair share...............after all they make their wealth off of the hard work and consumerism that is the middle class.......................

the rich and republican would cut off their own noses to spite their face...........how American and how 2011........

this is not 1950, J Edger Hoover is not in charge of the FBI, there is no need for Eliot Ness, there is no need to revisit McCarthism, we have attained civil rights for all, .....and yet the governments power over the people just got greater at the hands of the party of smaller government.............

republicans.......they promise one thing and always deliver the opposite

... how unpatriotic and unAmerican the republican party and the tea party are..........................they should all be ousted and charged as terrorist.....working against the best interests of the people and for robbery.

Debbie, Anyway you cut it, doing nothing is doing nothing and that's what those 14 Dems did----nothing! What interests did they protect? Did you not think that they'd figure a way to get around them? Since when is not voting at all as good as a NO vote? I have less respect for them than I do protesters who protest over a signed and done law. That's even funnier. Nothing to do on a Sat, let's thrash the capitol. Recall them if you can. Go to court if you want. BUT parading around like was done today is futile. You'll just tick off what support you have.

Joe,

Well first and foremost, contrary to popular belief, this great nation of ours is NOT a Democracy - it is a Republic.

Now, pray tell, if we take away tax breaks from businesses for creating jobs do you think they are going to continue to create jobs? Not if it is going to affect their bottom line. Corporations have a responsibility to their shareholders to maintain a strong profit. So, if it means they will lose money by paying more taxes, they are going to cut costs somewhere, and most times, the first place a business will go to cut costs is labor costs. So, this means the companies will a) not be creating more jobs or hiring more workers, b) laying off and/or firing workers, c) not giving raises to their employees or any combination of those and other options.

Now, the natural cycle of things tends to be (once a business is started) consumers purchase products and/or services from a business. The business makes a profit off of said purchase, this profit allows them to grow their business including hiring more people. Now, new or higher taxes are imposed on the business, so they can do one of a few things or a combination of them, they can a) lay off or fire employees, b) raise prices, c) freeze any annual raises they may normally give. All of these situations decrease the amount of purchasing power any given individual has, so, naturally, they will reduce their purchases because, unlike our government, we individuals are expected to live within our means. As people decrease their purchases companies will continue to do any combination of the remedies listed above. This goes for all companies regardless of their structure, corporations, sole proprietorships, partnerships, LLCs, etc.

Now, when companies are making less profit, they are paying less taxes and when there is a smaller workforce, there is a smaller pool of people paying taxes. Our governments, on all levels – local, state, and federal – operate on tax revenues. Now, please tell me, when the tax revenues are gone because there is such a small workforce and companies are not making as much as they were, where is the government going to get the money to pay the employees in the public sector?

We the corporations,

So, you believe corporations exist because we let them exist? Well, in the real world at least, corporations exist because their founders saw a need and they developed a product or service to fill that need. The only way you could claim we allow corporations to exist is to say we allow them to through our purchase of their products or services. So, let’s stop allowing them to exist by not purchasing their good or services and see how long society lasts. Pray tell, how would you wash your clothes without these corporations: Maytag, GE, your power company, Proctor & Gamble? How would you get to work without these corporations: GM, Ford, Toyota, Dodge, etc.? Would you have us go back to the days where we did everything by hand and travelled on horse? In some areas, this would extend commute times to an extremely unreasonable time frame. Also, corporations, due to their company structure are required to have shares which are traded. These can be traded publicly or privately. Did you pay attention to how badly our economy hurts when the stock market is down? How do you think our economy would fair when there are no corporations in which to invest, not to mention these stocks are the basis for many 401(k) and other retirement plans. Often times the average person does not know what exactly their money is being invested in through their company’s retirement plan because there are financial gurus who come up with different types of funds based on age, time until retirement, and other factors. However, when a person invests in any of these funds in their retirement account their money, somewhere down the line, is being invested in these corporations’ stocks.

I was at the protest today and at the time the Fab 14 dem senators took stage it was well over 100,000 people. The rough count would be 140,000. I have never seen that many people at one place ever. I know one thing that no one there to protest was on any ones payroll. People were everywhere elbow to elbow around the capital.

commonsense-3170045

Now, pray tell, if we take away tax breaks from businesses for creating jobs do you think they are going to continue to create jobs?

Therein lies the problem. We are giving tax breaks to corporations who are NOT creating jobs or who are creating more jobs overseas than they are here.

This practice has to end. There is absolutely no incentive for them to create jobs here because they get their tax breaks either way and as you so correctly stated

Corporations have a responsibility to their shareholders to maintain a strong profit.

They are taking advantage of tax cuts and tax payers as a whole. Those who are deserve nothing.

Kathryn Sullivan: If you and your commie friends don't like it, why don't you try Cuba, Iran, or North Korea. You and your commie unions lost in Wisconsin and the taxpayers won, so get over it, get back to work, and shut up already.

Reality, What purpose did it serve? What was accomplished? Like HCR, it is the law and will be until it's changed. Fab 14, that's cute. Glad they're in WI and not here. You think they're great and I think they're worthless. It's like this. If you work for the state, your next paycheck will have no union dues deducted and your retirement and healthcare contributions will be increased accordingly. I'd imagine Walker might have been golfing today. He's the winner. He got what he wanted. You guys lost and today doesn't change that at all.

Paul Otellini, CEO of Intel, and TJ Rodgers, CEO of Cyprus Semiconductors put it best.

Take factories. "I can tell you definitively that it costs $1 billion more per factory for me to build, equip, and operate a semiconductor manufacturing facility in the United States," Otellini said.

The rub: Ninety percent of that additional cost of a $4 billion factory is not labor but the cost to comply with taxes and regulations that other nations don't impose. (Cypress Semiconductor CEO T.J. Rodgers elaborated on this in an interview with CNET, saying the problem is not higher U.S. wages but antibusiness laws: "The killer factor in California for a manufacturer to create, say, a thousand blue-collar jobs is a hostile government that doesn't want you there and demonstrates it in thousands of ways.")

"If our tax rate approached that of the rest of the world, corporations would have an incentive to invest here," Otellini said. But instead, it's the second highest in the industrialized world, making the United States a less attractive place to invest--and create jobs--than places in Europe and Asia that are "clamoring" for Intel's business.

Read more: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-20014563-38.html#ixzz1GRf0nliT

We aren't getting jobs because America is anti-business. It's the sentiment of people on these boards that makes the government treat businesses like the plague, and in turn, they take their money, jobs, and expertise elsewhere. Places where they aren't punished for being successful. We lead the world in outsourcing. That's our claim to fame now. That is unsustainable. I just find it awesome that the same people who bash corporations as evil entities insist that they are taxed higher and over regulated, all while whining that there are no jobs. Get a grip people. These corporations don't bring jobs here because you treat them like lepers. When are we as a society going to take some personal responsibility and realize that if we aren't millionaires, it's no one's fault but our own. There is no mythical man trying to keep any of us down. "The rich stay rich, and the poor get poorer.". I think people like Mark Zuckerberg and Oprah Winfrey would laugh in your face if you told them that. Both came from nothing, and are some of the richest people in the world......or Bill Gates.....or Steve Jobs....etc....etc.....etc.. Get a grip on reality. The Corporations aren't screwing you. The Government is, and always has been.

VT SEC

I read a post earlier that the rich don't pay taxes???? has anyone heard the 80/20 income tax payers...top 20 % earners pay 80 % of all income taxes...how can that be? If the rich don't pay taxes...anyone who is confused about how little the rich pay...call an accountant, ask them...anyone heard of ALT MIN? what a joke!

This is no joke..............

As of 2007, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 34.6% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 50.5%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 85%, leaving only 15% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers). In terms of financial wealth (total net worth minus the value of one's home), the top 1% of households had an even greater share: 42.7%.

Now who is getting the free ride? Why would the Republicans give welfare to only 20% of Americans, who already owns 85% of the the wealth, while they take everything from the poor and middle class?

So let me tell ya, if that is true, i think we all better set the bar a little higher (be more greedy) when it comes to working hard in school, to go get these high paying jobs.

How can they do that when the Republicans are cutting everything that has to do with educating our kids. They have cut teachers salary, laid them off and treat them worst than scum. Yet the expect them to smile and make sure our little cherubs get a great education. Years ago when teachers were really appreciated, kids were doing great.

Parents don't get involved anymore, they blame the teachers for everything, while they take no responsibility.

You mean the same teachers that pass kids no matter how bad they've done, just to make it the next teacher's problem? Or perhaps the ones diddling their students lately? Or maybe the ones who refuse to present all sides of a lesson, instead skewing it to their own personal biases. Teachers ARE scum lately. There are a few exceptional teachers. The ones that REALLY care about your kids and teaching them. They are the very small minority.

FYI.....http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

Top 5% of the earners in America paid almost 60% of the total taxes collected......at a rate of almost 21%......where as the other 95% only paid 40% of the taxes, at a rate from 0-8%. Just because you want people to be punished for being more successful then you doesn't mean they should be.

Eris2010

Therein lies the problem. We are giving tax breaks to corporations who are NOT creating jobs or who are creating more jobs overseas than they are here.

This practice has to end. There is absolutely no incentive for them to create jobs here because they get their tax breaks either way and as you so correctly stated

I do not agree at all with giving tax breaks to corporations for creating jobs overseas. This does have to end. I am baffled our government even considered this as sending those jobs overseas and having the items produced there increases the other country's GDP while decreasing ours.

I completely agree with you 2 on this one common. Here in Oregon, companies receive tax breaks for having employees in state......with a minimum of 1.....so guess what most companies do? Yup. Keep one employee in state for the tax break. It's gotta be all or nothing....or at least the super majority. You want your tax breaks? 90% of your workforce needs to be from this country and working on our soil.

Don't blame the teachers. When was the last time a parent sat in on of their kids classes? If parents don't get involved the bad teachers get away with murder. When was the last time a parent sat with their child and have them read, only to realize that they cant and are still getting A's?

So you are suggesting that since 20% of Americans owns 85% of the wealth they should still get welfare? If everyone is doing so bad and the wealthy needs help, why is it that there are now 150 new billionaires in this country? It's not a matter of success, just greed.

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better about not succeeding as much as those people.

"It can't be anything wrong with me! I'm perfect! It has to be everyone else!"

Common denominator = you, not everyone else.

Stop punishing people for being successful. It's why this country is in the toilet.

My dad was a Teamster. The union screwed him over every way it could. His retirement survivor benefits were less than $10 per month after almost 40 years of paying dues. Don't even talk to me about unions - they are WORTHLESS.

My husband is union - AFLCIO. After 33 1/2 years his retirement pay is ALMOST enough to cover his health insurance and copays. They don't screw you while you are young and paying dues - they screw you when you retire. His insurance does not pay for office visits or outpatient services. You want to fight for that??

Screw the unions - bunch of corrupt money grubbers that benefit themselves - not their members.

Wake up Dems - stop selling your constituency down the union rivers.

It's a shame to me that so many people in the USA hate corporations. No one should love them either. They exist to earn a profit for their owners, and once you understand their motivation you can work with them to your benefit. Make too many rules about the environment, or wages, or benefits, or taxes, and corporations do what each of you liberals whining about them would do yourself--you alter your behavior.

But what really gets me is that our liberal friends who whine incessantly about Big Corporations and how they are screwed by them seem to never have a problem with the largest, and most screwing corporation of all in the USA. The federal government.

What Walker and legislative republicans have done in Wisconsin is a good thing. A moral thing. A wise thing. It is possible, but I hope unlikely, that they will lose power for their far-horizon vision. If so, so be it. Ultimately we will reach a point where the Laws of Economics force upon even the most liberal of people some measure of economic responsibility (republicans, bad in the past too, seem to be getting the message). Is it now, in Wisconsin? I hope so, because if not then I worry about how much further we must decline before our creditors decide how we will operate our nation. The greatest gift given to us by our founders was liberty, not the right to someone else's industry. If we fail, and we are going to fail without redirection, then it is because we have the right to fail, that we are FREE to fail.

What the protests in Wisconsin reveal to me is that we have a large percentage of our people who will not give up their right to someone else's money without a massive fight. Our national outcome is deeply in doubt.

If you think you'll have anything left of a middle class style of life in the U.S. if the Koch brothers and their puppets like Scott Walker get their way I have some mortgaged backed securities I'd like to sell you.....

The Plan to Steal Everything and Sell the People into Slavery

Wisconsin Death Trip

By MICHAEL HUDSON and JEFFREY SOMMERS

On Wednesday evening, in a veritable Night of the Long Knives, Wisconsin's integrity was brutally murdered on the floor of the state Capitol in Madison. On 9 March, integrity and trust built up over a century was obliterated as Wisconsin state senators quickly reversed course and cleaved its budget "repair bill" in half. Financial items require a quorum, thus, collective bargaining was split off from the budget repair bill and voted on separately so as to permit its being voted on now. Even so, this still broke the state's open meeting law requiring 24 hours' notice to ensure transparency. Instead, the Wisconsin senate Republicans pulled out this new legislation without advance notice and began voting, leaving only a stunned Democratic legislator, Peter Barca, to read the open meeting law out loud to prevent the senators from voting. The senate voted over his objections anyway.

The Wisconsin brand has always centered on integrity. This was really about the only distinctive comparative advantage the state could lay claim to. Now, it is gone. With collective bargaining abolished, huge issues remain beyond labor. The privatization of public assets is now on the agenda, with the yet-to-be-voted-on budget repair bill.

Wisconsin is a state that invented Progressive Era Republican rule in the 19th and early 20th centuries under such progressive populists as Robert LaFollette. Under their tenure, rent-seeking from the public domain and similar insider corruption were checked by a strong public sector anchored in integrity. The state's long history of reforms nurtured a prosperous middle class and made it a model of clean government, solid infrastructure, trade unionism and high value-added industry managed by socialists and the LaFollette Progressives.

Fast-forward to Scott Walker today. Representing a new breed apart from Wisconsin's earlier Republicans, he is seeking to re-birth the asset-grabbing Gilded Age. A plague of rent-seekers is seeking quick gains by privatizng the public sector and erecting tollbooths to charge access fees to roads, power plants and other basic infrastructure....

...But who is one to steal from? Most wealth in history has been acquired either by armed conquest of the land, or by political insider dealing, such as the great US railroad land giveaways of the mid 19th century. The great American fortunes have been founded by prying land, public enterprises and monopoly rights from the public domain, because that's where the assets are to take....

http://www.counterpunch.org/hudson03112011.html

Joe:

If you want to take a political side, then be informed. These people did a fantastic job of helping Obama to get elected.

Being an Independent, I tend to see all sides and peek around every corner.

As far as this situation goes......it's about time. It's flat out unfair that working class people have to fluff the pillows of those that work for States. I hope it spreads throughout the whole nation.

I see this coming all over this Country,people are finaly fed up working their butt off for low wages,like I did before the WW2 years,we were nothing but working slaves,workers had nothing to say, we were working 52 hrs a week for a few dollars,no payd vacation or sickleave,no medical benefits at all. This was the time when people started the Unions who were badly needed,and gave the working people a voice they started getting better wages and better living conditions,years later 2 weeks paid vacation after 2 years at the job and some years after that some medical insurance. So the workers got some money out of the profits these companies and big corporations were making instead of sitting on all that money they made, I tell you if it was not for the Unions they were stil sitting on that loot and the hell with the workers.However I have to say that Unions have to change also,you can not go overboard on your demandings,like they have done over the last 30 years,you have to bargain for a fair deal with will work for both sides,and that has not always been done. Having said this I also warn all you people in the privat industry don't let the unions go away,because if this happens you wil have absolutely no power at all and you will go back to the early days i was working for almost nothing,just work and keep yuor mouth closed. I am an retired 86 year old machinist and Airline mechanic and worked for 48 years and have a small retirement income,thanks for a union we got in the last 21 years i worked for a bigger airlines.

Several people have said it, but here it is said in the dumbest possible way:

ITSaMADworld-1882297

Joe, America is a REPUBLIC not a DEMOCRACY. Now please step down off that soap box before you "dumb down" anyone else....

America is not a "republic" rather than a "democracy." Go back to basic civics--do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

A republic and a democratic government are NOT mutually exclusive entities. A representative democracy is one kind of a republic. It might surprise people to know, but these ding-dongs who keep asserting that we have a "republic" and not a "democracy" are trying to slide it right past you that they want to turn our country into a fascist state (fascist states, my dear, are a "true republic"--and no, not all are Nazi-esque. We are talking about something resembling Italy in WWII or even old Rome).

They want to eliminate voting rights for the majority of people, and limit them only to "property owners"--which will divest virtually all women (especially once women are barred from holding jobs) and people of color (especially after people of color are barred from owning land). They want to have congresspersons nominated by the state senates rather than being elected by the people, because they are only elected at present due to the "illegal" seventeenth amendment. They want to have the president elected by the Electoral College, whose members would be nominated by the local party elite and whose members would be selected by the state congresses. They want the state congresses elected only by the "landowners" (that is, white males) who have been anointed as voters.

Basically, they want to go back to the way things were with the original 13 colonies in which women could not vote, anyone who was not white was barred by practice from voting or barred by law from voting, and blacks/natives/Hispanics were largely enslaved (a lot of people don't know that the slaves were not all black--many were Indians or Portuguese/Spanish/Mexican). So, when people are Tea Party members and start talking about how much they love the "Constitution"--remember that this is what they actually want.

We do not have a fascist or oligarchic republic any more--we have a country that has morphed over the last couple of hundred years into a much more representative democracy (again, which is one form of a republic) and in which all people (not just men, and not just white men, and not just property-owning white men) are created equal even if they are not treated equally.

So, when people start correcting you about how we have a "republic" and not a "democracy"--remember that these people are not your friends if you are non-white or female or even if you are a white male who doesn't happen to be quite white enough or "macho" enough for them. These are people who want to have a fascist republic, probably a theocratic fascist republic. And, this is what they are trying to bring about in Wisconsin.

I hope that the people of Wisconsin have finally woken up to figure out what happens when you don't pay attention to the democratic process and become apathetic. Apathetic people hand their freedoms over to fascistic governments--it has happened before, and it will happen again. Let's see if it happens here.

Rich,

The federal government is not a corporation it is a government in other words us. A corporation is a corporation and is only interested in making money. therefore it is in our best interest to look after the federal government (us), because the corporation sure isn't going to.

All of this talk of corperations sticking it to everybody. The corperation you guys are are talking about in WI case are the taxpayers. You guys are mad because he took away your ability to tighten the screws later on and you now have to ask the taxpayers for a pay increase.

Since my comment under #1 was collapsed (it seems lots of people object to free speech), I'll repeat it here.

As for a recall, time will tell, but I suspect that when the taxpaying citizens of Wisconsin find out that the bad public sector workers and teachers can now be fired and replaced with good ones, and that layoffs are avoided, and public sector pay and benefits are brought in line with the private sector (the ones who pay the bills), and the unions still have the ability to represent their workers, and their taxes don't have to go up to support higher wages and benefits for public workers, they just might not vote the way you think.

Just look at the results in Indiana from putting a harness on the public sector union's greedy demands. Mitch Daniels did the same thing to unions in Indiana a few years back, and there were loud complaints then as well, but now his approval ratings are about 70%.

Everyone has a job to do. I think many of you who are for what happened in WI , OH and other states wouldn't do any of the public sector jobs if you had too. You are above them. You feel better than these people who fix the roads, teach our kids and put out your burning house. Your more important than them right? You deserve YOUR paycheck but they don't deserve a living wage. After all they are YOUR slaves since you contribute too there wages with taxes. YOU own them , right ?

Most if not all of you who are complaining about these low life public workers wouldn't make it a week in some of these jobs. A list should be published by the Public employee unions to show each and every one of you what the real wages are so you can see the truth. This had nothing to do with cutting costs just bullys pushing an agenda.

These public workers won't legally be able to strike in a few days because of this new ORDER. I won't call it a law because it was not passed in a lawful manner IMO any more than the bill in Ohio has been moved on following proper proceedures. I would say to make a point EVERY public sector employee should walk right in to thier supervisor and hand them a letter of resignation effective in 30 days unless this piece of stool bill is resended. Let the jerks who crammed this down the working mans thoat try to find enogh people to fill all of these positions before those of you who are for it start climbing the satehouse walls yourself crying for the services you don't want to pay a fare living wage for.

Avenger-2464988 ". I would say to make a point EVERY public sector employee should walk right in to thier supervisor and hand them a letter of resignation effective in 30 days unless this piece of stool bill is resended."

Great idea. Then we could replace those $100,000+ per year garbage collectors and bus drivers with someone that will do the jobs for a REASONABLE wage.

rather odd...the only thing i can see any WMPLOYEE getting upset about in this bill, are 2 things. first being when the state in in the finacial dillema it is in now, you cant run around like a little king demanding a raise, and go pout in the corner till you get one. The second, is you are going to be responsible for paying your own dues for the union. This means instead of the tax payer not haveing a say to your raise has been eliminated, and that the taxpayer, no longer foots the bill to ensure to remain in the union, even if you dont want to be, means you now have a choice.

YOU want to be in the union, fine, i have np with that, YOU write your OWN CHECK to pay for YOUR DUES. The taxpayer pays for your salary, it should pay to ensure you remain in the union as well? Personally, if that be the case, the state should charge you to have this done, but then you'd cry about that too. see nothing was actually stripped from your rights, and i have read this bill 3 times, 2 short versions, 1 exstended, and it to me reads all the same. you are able to get a raise when the taxpayer can afford it. ok in way that makes way too much common sence, maybe thats the problen, its logical not to give people $ you dont have?

the union boss, well here's their problem, and is to laugh! see the union wants YOUR $ taken fron YOUR check, and given to THEM, because they dont want to have to deal with chaseing you down for your $. You also have a CHOICE NOW, not to be in the union, you get the same pay, same state healthcare, pay the same amount in for this and that, and can save you $ you were dishing out to the union boss if you feel he isnt sucking your d*** and pulling down your pants like they say they are ...all for you.

See, if you want to be in the union, its not a problem. just no more holding the taxpayer up against the wall, for $ they dont have, because the jobs are not out there yet for the actual non union drools. actually week before last i went door to door. same as always employers said, just doing what we can right now to stay afloat. guys with cut hours, laid off and so on. Friday i went out, was like a different world out there. i got called for 2 interviews for monday. employers were more optimistic, telling me to exspect to hear from them soon, and to make sure i keep in touch, checking back to see if there was an opening coming up, or to let them know if i found a job elsewhere. This isnt the greatest news, that being i went home with a job, but its 2nd best, that in the near future 2-3 weeks, i just might have one.

Why not just leave the union, i did after 6 months, and from what i saw a real company would not hire 95% of these lazy crybabys.I am tired of hearing about there rights,when you think about it all the dirty @!$%# the unions have done since the 20's in this country it is amazing that the american people have let them exist for this long. Down with unions up with getting what you work for.

Bottomline=Public Sector Unions are not working for whats best for the real taxpayers of these Citys, States and Country. I want my taxes going towards non-Union workers and services, its time we receive more for our tax dollars.

These people are middle class and will still be middle class after this is over. We are not looking to have them make minimum wage like every Union worker has been brain washed to believe.

Unions have sucked us dry long enough. No more unions for public employees. Lets go after the federal workers next.

Your more important than them right? You deserve YOUR paycheck but they don't deserve a living wage.

Surely you're high. And yes, that's "you're" as is you are. Government employees for the most part make FARM more then any other job, unless you're up in upper management/CEO land. The fact that you think these people can't live on what others do makes me laugh.

cant help but notice when the truth comes out about the wasted $ to the union worker, the thread gets collapsed, lol. Just like the mother of the kid who came to Madison so her and her son could get arrested, (she personally a walking joke, and discredit to real parents). What is a real funny, is i have 3 other room mates, of 4 of us 2 for, and 2 against the unions, lol. kind of funny when you ask them what they should be paying to help the union workers in this case.

Personally as i said before, the union boss' were all ready to throw its members under the train, to save themselves from 2 parts in this bill. it wasnt the collective barganing LIMITS. it was members pay their own dues to the union out of their own pocketbook, and they dont have to be in a union if they dont want to be.

Its over boys..... time to pack your smell non showering for 3 week collective azzes, and go home. if you dont want to go home, go to where you might have a chance to maybe save a union in some other state, Wisconsin isnt going to line your pockets any longer, lol.

And yes, that's "you're" as is you are.

Government employees for the most part make FARM more then any other job.

Remember to take the plank out of your eye, before trying to take the moth out of someone elses.

I would hardly call mistyping and using two separate terms the same thing. Your, you see, is a possessive pronoun. You're is a contraction of you and are. Mistyping far as farm when the next word in the sentence started with an M is hardly the same thing. One is lack of education, the other is an error in typing. But thanks for playing.

Yeah, because you are a republican and it must be so if you say so...Twist those facts till it fits your agenda, I guess.

It's not because I'm a Republican. It's because I'm not a moron and have at the very least a basic reading and writing comprehension. But, if it makes you feel better to do some transference onto me, that works. It's usually the democrats who think they're smarter because of their political affiliation.

A republican balancing a budget? Now that's funny. Walker had already given the money he is taking from workers to corporation in reduced taxes. Republicans don't balance budgets. They transfer wealth from the middle class and poor to the rich.

JimS,

Good Lefty straw dog! How's that work? 47% of the taxpayers pay zero, nada, goose egg, nothing! in federal taxes? Who's taking what?

Now ... if you want to talk State and Local? You bet! State and Local often tax poor and rich according to property they own, or income. So ... what these state governments are trying to do is reduce the amount they need to tax and increase the number of jobs available.

Most of the inequities in taxation are state, local, and school district related. What's the main cost driver ???? employee benefits!!! Wow how about that? What happens when a new union contract drives that cost up ... Yep! higher taxes and the poor pay too!

Unions earn every thing you as a worker enjoy, corparations gave you nothing we earn the money for them and desire a decent living and what have you done for workers Independ thinker nothing everything for yourselfs.So don't put people down when we help each other.Watch your own back.

http://www.businessinsider.com/15-charts-about-wealth-and-inequality-in-america-2010-4?op=1

Why are you attacking regular middle class folks? They are NOT the problem. I've seen many conservatives say things like "well get a good paying job with benefits" and they are against healthcare reform (to help MILLIONS get insurance), they bitch and moan about costs, yet when people have jobs with benefits they call them overpaid. These are the same @!$%#s who complained about people making over 250,000 not getting a tax cut extended. WTF is wrong with you people?

Astonished. Man what a line of BS. Firstof all that 47% you talk about that pay no taxes are the rich. They have put in all the loop holes to benefit themselves. Most working people don't pay land taxes because they can't afford a home of there own. But they pay it indirectly by paying the high rent. But the land lords get out of paying taxes on there rentals. Rich people don't pay taxes, that is a fact. I know I have been there. The big problem here is that people that have had a chance to go to collage and get those high paying jobs don't want anyone else to have that same chance, Its animal instinct, No compaction for your job. Be honest ,do you think these CEO's deserve the money they take???? The Boards of these company's that give the CEO's all that money and never once is there a Claus about performance. Not once. There used to be performance attached to a contract. If you didn't preform you got fired. But the rich always seemed to get a severance package to protect them. That is what is wrong with this corporate country we live in. Its always the unions fault for a company's failure, Its never the people at the top that make the decisions, No never them. But give us our bonus's even when we loose Billions. Give me give me I earned every penny of it.

Astonished your statement is so wrong it has to be a lie.

Sorry team Lefties ...

from yahoo finance ... hardly a right wing source.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&.v=1

Astonished. You live in a dream world if you think that will happen. This isn't about the unions or the workers - this is about profits for investors and big salaries for the CEO's because they brought in more profits. It's certainly not about sharing some of those profits with the workers that made it happen. Corporations cannot exist without workers - unfortunately most of the workers are overseas now and it looks like there will be more going soon.

Lefty,

I can tell you as a business owner that first of all yes, I'd like to make more money but I need to keep my best employees also. I don't know how to tell you this (because I know you won't get it) but most jobs are created by small business. You define a CEO as being rich, but I tell you most CEOs of small business aren't rich. This class warfare crap is exactly that.

Hey ... why don't YOU create a business. Heck, YOU could be a CEO! Try it, you'll like it! See how easy it is!

Wow, and guess what, not only can any person, including an employee of a company buy stocks in the company on the open stock market, many recieve stock options are part of their pay. In some companies even down to the lowest paid worker in the company. And guess what, if you were more concerned about working hard, making the company better, and actually bettering yourself, maybe you could advance through a company until you had a better job. Instead people like you work your hourly job just well enough to stay around, and come home and complain to the internet.

Lefty-1759844

Astonished. You live in a dream world if you think that will happen. This isn't about the unions or the workers - this is about profits for investors and big salaries for the CEO's because they brought in more profits. It's certainly not about sharing some of those profits with the workers that made it happen. Corporations cannot exist without workers - unfortunately most of the workers are overseas now and it looks like there will be more going soon."

Astonished,

Read the article you linked to and you're correct, 47% don't pay any income tax. But did the reasons register with you? Basically, they're too poor to pay taxes. I'm sure that percentage will be even higher for the past couple years and next couple to come. Ross Perot said it best, with NAFTA there'll be this giant sucking sound as the good paying (thanks to unions) jobs are sucked out of this economy. We've lost thousands of manufacturing facilities and hundreds of thousands of jobs that went with them so corporations could show larger profits. And they actually get tax breaks for doing it.

Larry,

Look, first let's say I'm open to tax reform, OK? That said tell me what you think is a fair amount to pay?40%, 50%, 60%, 90%? How much of my profit for the risk of running a business do I get to keep. Here, trick question ... GE, the big backer of your Prez. How much taxes did they pay last year? I mean, they're on your side. They're paying the Prez's bills.

... they didn't pay any! In fact they had a 1.1 billion credit!

How about those rotteny old WalMart bastards! How much did they pay? $7.1 billion or 34%. Wow! couple bucks there!

Conoco Phillips one of those oil barons! How much did they pay? $5.1 billion or 51% . Over half of what they earned. Is that enough or do you want more?

AT&T ... How much did they pay? $6.2 billion or 34%

and so on. my source: http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/01/ge-exxon-walmart-business-washington-corporate-taxes_slide.html

my point ... corporations pay tons of taxes but interestingly enough the one's the Left loves is one of the biggest tax avoiders.

Wonder how that happens!

I truely wish that the masses would take to the streets every time our government passes laws or enstates services that IT CAN'T PAY FOR!!!

As a retired teacher, I was ashamed of the wasted $$ I saw on a daily basis in our public schools ever increasing over the last 20 years.

If the (mainly liberal) teachers hadn't push pushed along sooo many expensive special interest programs - which eventually led to the drastic measures now being taken - perhaps they wouldn't have made themselves targets in the first place.

Why does it surprise you that G.E. paid no taxes? Since their CEO and executives have taken away as much as possible from workers they need to get their billions in salary and bonuses from somewhere! The only reason they haven't closed all their plants here, is that security clearance is required for some of their projects, and it's hard find workers in third world counties who qualify.

We are entering the age of "THE GOLDEN RULE", where he/she who has the gold makes all the rules. It is their world and we only exist to make them more money! After unions are made illegal, companies will no longer have to ship work overseas. There will be plenty of sweatshops right here! Where employers can pay the workers the bare minimum and no benefits.

Who knows, they might have that silly minimum wage law repealed while they are at it. Maybe they can bring back the days of paying workers in script, that are redeemable only at the company store.

You all really need to read what the Union Leaders are pulling down in salaries before you bad mouth the private sector. Read this article.

http://detnews.com/article/20070814/BIZ/708140392/Labor-bosses-don-t-share-workers--pain

We deserve to take our salaries from money that you have earned, we deserve to take our pensions from your earnings until we die, and we deserve to be protected from being fired for own incompetence. Yes we are like parasites.

Sincerely, greedy crybabies (a.k.a. "protesters")

blondeness,

Oh for GODS SAKE! Give it a rest! There's nothing that has been lost! You still have your unions, if that's what you like. There are 36 states that have right to work laws already and have had them for years. Actually, they tend to have the lower unemployment rate right now. The minimum wage law is a federal law, BTW. Recall, that the Prez raised it?

Let's say that you're a Republican and you want to get rid of taxes. I tell you it's not possible, but you won't listen to me. That's cool.
So you win. Taxes are gone. No taxes in the USA. You win. The federal government and all the evils that go with it are gone forever.
Now let's finish your scenario out, OK? Humor me.
You might think that with no taxes, you'll make more money, right?
Wrong.
Let's say that you make 40,000 dollars a year now. But your take home pay is only 30,000 dollars. Your employer knows that he doesn't have to pay the federal government those nasty taxes anymore, but he also knows that you've been willing to come to work every day for a 30,000 dollar take-home amount. Guess who's getting a pay decrease down to 30k a year? You are. The taxes are gone, did you really think that your employer wouldn't choose to benefit from that first?
So now you make the same amount as before, but there's no money going to social security anymore. The same amount of money you lived on before now has to get you beyond retirement.
Your 401k is gone too. The company that manages it has wiped the accounts dry. Who's going to stop them from doing that now that the federal regulators have all been fired?
Perhaps you'd better start saving 10 percent of your paycheck for future retirement plans? Whoops, can't do that. The FDIC doesn't exist, so the banks have all been cleaned out. So have the accounts you used to have money in. Your consumer protections are gone, and the person nearest to the vault with a key is now racing towards Bermuda with sacks of your money.
We didn't really want all those nasty regulations on the banks anyway, did we?
OK, so you can handle this. You don't need help. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps, right?
You'll be OK, I'm sure of it. But your kids are hungry, so you'd better go to the store to get groceries. Be careful with the meat and the produce departments, though. Sometime last month, the farmer realized that his farm subsidies were gone and he's gotta cut corners to survive, not to mention raising his prices. In the cutting of the corners, he stopped feeding his cattle clean food. Now those cows are all sick and their meat is packaged up nice for you to buy and feed to your kids.
There's no FDA and no USDA to monitor the food your farmer provides to the grocery store, so you're on your own.
Oh and by the way, the ground beef that will be in your digestive system soon just cost you double what it used to, if you're lucky. Price controls have been dissolved altogether.
When your family gets sick from that tainted meat, you'll have to rush them to the hospital. Pray that their illness has already been given a cure, because the Centers For Disease Control no longer can help your local hospital identify any viruses.
Also, don't drink the water in your neighborhood anymore. The Environmental Protection Agency, as it turns out, was actually protecting the environment. You didn't think Monsanto was going to stop chemical dumping in the streams and lakes of America on their own, did you?
On your way home from the hospital, drive slowly. The traffic lights no longer work because they were part of the local government control and there's no more tax money left to operate the lights. This alone caused a lot of accidents, and most of the wreckage is left behind for you to drive around if you can. Ever noticed the people that sweep up the broken glass after even the most minor fender-benders? Guess what paid their salaries?
When you get home, pray it's still there. Without police, what do you think the odds are that people just left it alone? Unless you left your husband/wife behind with a big gun 24/7, somebody's coming in to take your stuff. And if they have a bigger gun, you just lost your husband and his 30k a year too.
Hopefully that house doesn't catch fire too. No fire department. And even if there were friends willing to help put out the fire, where do you think they're going to get the water to douse the flames? Those fire hydrants were not placed there by divine intervention.
Hopefully you prepared for all this by stockpiling on guns and assorted weaponry. Not like it'll matter. There's armies from about 2 dozen countries that either are ready to invade or already have. Who's gonna stop them? Jimbo and his homemade militia? I'm sure the people in your neighborhood can fill in for the boys that used to be in our military, because you know....wolverines! I loved that film too. But let's be honest....the Cubans and Russians were going to kick our ass, no matter how many high school football players Patrick Swayze can recruit.
Even if the world community takes pity on us and defends us from invading armies, it won't take long for the airports to become havens of hysteria. Weapons on airplanes are easy as pie. The TSA that performs security checks at the gate...who do you think paid their salaries? They're part of that massive government waste you're so happy to be rid of. Maybe the federal marshalls on every plane will protect you....oh, wait. Never mind.
Aside from the easy pickings that terrorism will find in the skies, you won't be safe on the ground either. Timothy McVeigh is about to be a happy memory compared to the chemical detonations that are possible now. The regulatory committees that monitored the sale and purchase of toxic materials are gone daddy gone.
So between the tainted meat, your pay cut, your 401k being wiped out, the hospitals being overrun by people who ate the same tainted meat, your house being an easy target, the threat of terrorism at all-time highs, and having to fight for your own survival on a hourly basis....don't you think that maybe it's better that you just shut up and pay your damn taxes?
Or are you willing to risk all that just because you once heard about a guy who was lazy and took 300 bucks a month in unemployment?

blondness

Unions will still be legal, you can organize all you want, the problem is that nobody will hire union labor, its like letting a thief into your house with the hope that he wont steal from you. They may not extort you today, but what about tomorrow, you know its coming, you just dont know when. American labor, through unions, priced themselves out of the market.

Who do you corporate loathers think employed all those union and non-union workers in the past?

Who do you think generates most jobs? Corporations, workers or sole proprietors?

While there are some corporations worthy of the public's ire (MSFT, AT&T, GM, Chase Bank, to name a few), people who have blanket hate of corporations don't understand corporations. People who complain about taxes, don't understand taxes. Both work a lot good for society, people and the world.

Most of the problems complained of here and under other stories at Newsvine are the direct fault of the fed.gov. Educate yourself so that you know who your enemy really is.

Knowledge is more than commentators here proffer or think. It is an eye opener. Get it and see past the illusion called "your life."

The bottom 47% who pay no federal taxes need to start paying and now! Everyone needs to have skin in the game. It's those 47% that use the most "services" and "programs" and you name it, and are bleeding America dry.

@ Travelor: Wow! Excellent scenario that makes all the right points necessary.

@Blue N Gold: Most of the problems are not created solely by the federal government. Private sector workers consistently accept less and less than their public sector counterparts. Corporations, or whomever employs them for that matter, expect them to accept less so the offer less and less and pass it off on the economy or the price of doing business as being too high. If you have no representation, which I'd say few to none of the private sector does, then you have no way of fighting for what you honestly want from your employer. As the private sector continues to lower the bar by being complacent, the rest of us suffer along with them. So many times I hear that you get what you're worth. In that spirit, according to the lowering standards of pay and benefits, we are all worthless and deserving of nothing.

It is amazing how hostile some of you folks are getting!

Wow! Look at all of the collapsed comments on here. Just proves once again how intolerant Liberals trulyare. Not to mention how much Tyler wishes to be in control. Face the facts, the MAJORITY of Wisconsin residence elected the Gov to do just what he has done. NOTHING the Union thugs and their mindless sheep members can do to change this. Shout 'recall' all you want, with only 2% of the total population being members of the Teachers union, and at best, 10% supporting them, the sheer numbers alone are against you. But what do I know, after all, I was educated by real teachers in the 70's that actually cared about teaching. And since the majority of the current teachers can not even get 25% of their students to read, well...no wonder they can not see that the numbers are against them. Down with tenure, and forward with performance! Scares the mediocrity that the Unions rely on for their power. After all, we in the private sector must prove to our employers that we are worth the wages they pay us. And no, you do NOT have a right to bargain. The only rights you have are in the Constitution. Go read it for once!

When you guys start talking about the rich paying no taxes or 47% of the public paying no taxes, it's not unions. It's not corporations. It's the IRS. It's the Internal Revenue code. It's people taking advantage of the tax breaks that the government gives them. Everybody, you, me, every taxpayer, takes advantage of what tax breaks we are given. Revise the code. It's that simple. Go to a flat tax or a national sales tax, but the battle cry will be the poor can't afford that.

Travelor,

Sorry to disappoint you, but when you make sense, all you get is crickets. They are all jumping up and down, with their hands covering their eyes and ears.

Fantastic post.

I can deal in hypothetical things that will never happen too! Hey Travelor! Maybe one day, aliens will come here, and bring with them space gold! And we'll use it as the reserve currency for the universe and have a pizza party!

Your hatred of the people that supply you jobs just shows me exactly what generation you come from. Thank GOD my generation is starting to see how badly yours screwed this all up. Corporations couldn't cut pay because you suddenly pay no taxes.....where do you think labor unions came from in the past? You think they're just going away because they got beat in one state? I can come up with worst case scenarios for everything to ever happen too.

Obama's must be very satisfied with himself.

He's a right-wing pro corporate democrat like Bill Clinton who is intent on attacking the poor and middle class in the interests of the rich and corporations. When he stabbed his base in the back (like most Democrats do) by not endorsing single payer or even a "public option" and not ending Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy he demoralized his base, the people that campaigned for him, so they didn't come out and help or even many times vote in the last election.

That allowed Republicans to take over many governorships and state legislatures like Wisconsin in the last election, who would drive thing even further to the right.

In spite of the fact that the public, as displayed in many opinion polls, has as dim a view of Republicans as democrats (or worse) it also allowed the corporate media to portray Obama as doing the best he can against a "Republican ground swell".

This makes Obama's job of attacking working people and the middle class standard of living on behalf of his corporate backers, with huge cuts to social services, etc. even easier.

Mean while black people, who Obama has not only done nothing for but even hurt, are still solidly in his camp.

They will never accept the idea that he is a bad guy even though he is. They blame it on the "white people" around him.

Black people were hurt very badly by the sub-prime mortgage meltdown because The mortgage industry and Wall Street targeted them for their scam, even lying and steering them into sub prime mortgages when they qualified for 30 year fixed mortgages.

Wall Street also gave generously to the Obama campaign, $93 million, more than Bush.

Brilliant and cynical move by the ruling class to put this guy in the White House. His only goal is personal advancement like many in the ruling class these days and he's working hard for the rich and powerful and against working people of whatever ethnic background and yet has the support of many white progressives and overwhelming support from unions and black people.

This is the dead end of "identity" politics. Rachel Maddow likes him because he suppposedly ended "don't ask, don't tell" for gays and lesbians.

Great, it will be so much better for the world when the next time we invade some country, stomp on international law, and kill thousands of civilians that the "gay, lesbian and the trans-gendered community" will have openly participated.

Astonished--the poor pay taxes.

Go buy a jug of milk. You will pay taxes. Go buy gas. You will pay taxes. Buy any kind of consumer product, you will pay taxes.

You are defining the term "taxes" so as to only benefit your side of the equation--that is, you are defining it only as "property" tax or as "income" tax. There are many, many taxes that are other than this. And, these are the taxes which are used to pay for many things that also benefit you.

Every person who earns money and buys things pays taxes.

Remember what Christ said--if you actually crack open that book that people who make such arguments like to thump people with--and the widow's mite. Though she donated only a very tiny sum of money in, it was virtually all she had. Christ called her donation greater than that of the wealthy person--who paid many times more and also could easily afford it.

Anyone who does a fair analysis of poor and middle class people, versus the wealthy, and taxes will find that the poor and middle class lose a far larger percentage of their income in taxes than the rich do. That is, the "tax burden" is heavier on the middle class and lower class and poor than it is on the rich, even though the rich pay more money in.

If I make $10 a day, and you make a million dollars a day, and I pay a dollar in taxes--that's 10% of my income. If you pay $94 in taxes, you have paid 94 times what I have paid. But, it is a fraction of your income too small to bother to compute. I hurt because of taxes; you do not hurt, though you whine that you are paying more and suggest that you should get to make all the decisions.

Seriously--the very wealthy in the US have managed to amass the vast bulk of what is owned. The middle and lower classes do not even make the amount of money that the wealthy pay in taxes--though the wealthy do not feel the burden at all--well, except in that they aren't living in a Third World country where that kind of "donation" to the government earns them the right to live above the law like kings. Now that the wealthy travel the world--they want to live like the wealthy in Third World countries.

Most of us are not stupid enough to fall for your line of BS. So, please, don't insult our intelligence any more. Simply because the very wealthy have managed to divest the rest of us of virtually all our wealth does not mean that the very wealthy now get to make all the decisions by virtue of having robbed us all blind so that we can't contribute the same amount. I don't personally feel like going back to a feudal system--thanks.

Travelor - your story should have started out..."once upon a time" like other children's fairy tales based on fantasy and fiction.

Socialism only works as long as you have other people's (TAXPAYERS) money to spend. Well guess what! The taxpayers are TIRED of going to DMV and waiting in line while the employees take coffee breaks. The taxpayers are TIRED of FAILING SCHOOLS while the teachers have benefits they don't have and can not be fired for poor performance. So what do the taxpayers do? They elect people who will do as they want (republicans in this case) and they will stand by them as long as they do as they say they will do. All the republicans will be re-elected and many of the democrats will not in the next election. Watch and see, it will happen. You see, liberal socialists that don't have any grasp on reality or simple economics, the republicans are DOING WHAT THE TAXPAYERS (millions of us) WANT!

Astonished, If the economy doesn't benefit me and my family then why should I care if it improves. I, like most people want whats good for me and mine. If the economy creates more temp agency jobs, I really don't care. They don't benefit the common man. Creating jobs is worthless unless they are decent jobs that will support a family. I notice that a lot of people on these post bring up the economy over and over. I am as greedy as anyone else, but if the economy just throws a bone to us instead of the meat, who cares? My thoughts are if it doesn't help me personally then let it collapse.

i love how people keep saying 47% of the country doesn't pay taxes. my middle class friends with an income in 30-50k range all pay taxes. all of them, they don't get it all refunded at the end of the year. the only ones i know who pay no taxes are making 10-15k a year. but that is only fed taxes. what about sales,property taxes, gas ect. they pay that along with everybody else. i get that rich people look down and hate poor people but stop spreading lies to create more hate.

I always chuckle when someone posts that some large percentage (47%)of the population doesn't pay any taxes. lol. Normally what that means is they are living at or below poverty and you make an issue of it.lol. What you really bring to light is the fact that nearly half the population can't afford to eat well. Can't afford to provide proper shelter. Can't afford healthcare. Can't afford clothing. THE BUMS....lol . Why should they have it so good!!!Over the last few decades there has been a movement to end union representaion. The task is nearly complete. After another couple of decades we will see the real effects of this movement. When you or your children are among the 75% of the population that can't afford food,clothing,shelter and healthcare, because bargaining rights are gone. Perhaps you will look back and say . Gee maybe that wasn't such a good idea after all.

I’ve heard the union’s have been busing in these protesters” from as far away as California. It’s no wonder they’re going to such extremes since they see their gravy train is about to come to an end.

Wet Willy I hear the Koch brothers have to bus in the Toilet Paper Republicans from out of state Alzehimers nursing home units. They make those cute tea bag hats in activities class before being wheeled out to the corporation sponsered busses.

Spot on Avenger...

Oops AVENGER...

you or your children are among the 75% of the population that can't afford food,clothing,shelter and healthcare

Can't have it both ways. According to 'your type', this is already statistically true!

Fact on - since the "New Deal", poverty level assistance has been INCREASING not decreasing. At the same time Federal Govt. jobs have skyrocketed with we the taxpayers shouldering the burdon for each and every 'assistance' office created. What does that have to say for socialized spending?

In the meantime, national interests and allys go to the wayside, with the greedy recipients of our hard earned tax money vying for an ever bigger piece of the pie to ante up their next entitlement. Then they extoll hatred and contempt for businesses and people whom have worked hard to have a more comfortable life and (ironically) have been paying the taxes to support these freeloaders, instead of extending our National reach beyond their little worlds. Teachers or perhaps teachers unions, have enabled this to happen. The backlash is not against teachers! It's against the spending REQUIRED by the Federal Govt. that STATES HAVE TO SPEND in order to comply. Though understandable that teachers should not be first on the chopping block, it's one of the only places to start since entitlement programs seem to be sacred cows.

THE BUDGET HAS TO BE BALANCED WITH TAXES WE'RE PAYING NOW...ALL OF US!!

Bean@Home

If I make $10 a day, and you make a million dollars a day, and I pay a dollar in taxes--that's 10% of my income. If you pay $94 in taxes, you have paid 94 times what I have paid

Who makes $10 a day again, you?? Who makes $1,000,000.00 a day again??!!

Bad analogy, bad math......not to mention that whoever makes $1,000,000.00 a day is going to use the same gas and services as somebody that makes $10 a day (whoever that is)??!!! No wonder you probably don't believe in trickle down, it could never happen if this were true. Next time you're worried about getting divested of your wealth just check your cable/phone internet and car payments...great places to start (still can't figure out how so many people can drive around in brand new cars in this 'crappy economy').

Nope

WRONG. don't go back to work. Strike. Unions are the only reason workers have conditions as good as they do and to remove the union right to collectively bargain for a safe working environment is WRONG no matter how you paint it. So ignore this idiot, Strike! and RECALL!!

.....they're not bargaining for a "safe work environment". That is handled by OHS, not the unions. You're pissed off because you can't demand a pay raise to your already overinflated salaries. Get a grip. Go ahead and strike. You can be fired now, and replaced with someone who doesn't want 100k a year to collect garbage.

Our deficit could be cut in half by raising taxes to the Clinton era. Cut some from all the programs including military. Finally finish our two wars and we could turn this around. Why do we need over one hundred bases in Europe?

Why are we picking on teachers? They certainly did not cause the economic meltdown. If you think they did, you have the IQ of a small rodent.

Fern 6.36

Nice irrational post. Are all you dems on some kind of medication? BTW, who are the Koch brothers that you and some other dems keep mentioning?

They're the new boogie men taking over for Bush/Cheney in their ghost stories.

Taish....perhaps you should actually do some reading before making non-factual tripe on these boards. The corporate and rich tax rates were LOWER during Clinton then they were with Bush. Bush actually raised them with the conditions that they wouldn't be raised again for some time.....thus the "Bush Tax Cuts", which anyone with half a brain sees is not a tax cut, it's keeping taxes from raising. That's like car salesmen jacking the prices of cars up to 1 million dollars each and then offering a coupon to bring them down to MSRP and calling it a deal. Twist those facts till it fits your agenda, I guess.

perhaps you should actually do some reading before making non-factual tripe on these boards.
The corporate and rich tax rates were LOWER during Clinton then they were with Bush. Bush actually raised them with the conditions that they wouldn't be raised again for some time.....thus the "Bush Tax Cuts", which anyone with half a brain sees is not a tax cut, it's keeping taxes from raising

You need to take your own advise. Bush lowered the tax rates by giving tax cuts. Bush NEVER raised taxes. The tax cuts also added to the deficit.

He used reconciliation to pass the bill which give tax cuts...that is lowering taxes. He was unable to to make it permanent, that's why they were in place for only 10 years, at which time the lower tax would expire and they would go back to the Clinton tax rates.

You need to stop watching fox. Why would everyone, especially the republicans and the rich want to extend the tax cuts, rather than have it go back to the Clinton era rates, if they were paying a lower rate then?

It makes me wonder the size of your brain. You are making a fool of yourself as usual.

Twist those facts till it fits your agenda, I guess......Isn't that what you are doing?

I'm sorry you're right....I meant Obama not Clinton. Was still stuck on Clinton from another post in my mind.

Apparently not in Wisconsin with a bought and paid for Gov.

These "rights" you keep referring to are laws, not a God-given privilege. Most posters keep confusing the 2. Laws can be changed, as what happened in Wisconsin.

As for police and firemen, IMO they're exempt b/c they put their lives on the line everyday. While there are probably risks with other union jobs, police and firemen is a highly hazardous profession. And yes, I know there are corrupt police/firemen. That needs to be handled accordingly...

Francis

The key words for me here is "rights".

Well there you go again ... the "rights" thing. First, the so called "rights" are Laws enacted by each state. That why some states are "right to work" and others are "closed shop". It's by LAW. Constitutional rights are derived from the Bill of Rights in the US Constitution or your State Constitution. The ability to form unions is not "freedom of assemby". Different!

You had an election. The legislature changed the law. Period. You can still Join any union you want to. You can pay your dues, negotiate for wages, do all those things except you have the ability to decide if you want to pay those dues as opposed to the state collecting them for the union.

You like 'em? You join 'em! Freedom!

Divide and win. That’s the answer. Besides they have the guns, essential to control the protesting populace

Apparently the Walker and the the other simple minded republicans want kids taught by minimum wage teachers or at least only those people that can't get other jobs. You get what you pay for now we'll have a whole generation of kids qualified to fill in for Walker and his cronies.

What a bunch of short sighted idiots.

I've reviewed the various spreadsheets of teacher salaries I'm not an expert but sorry they are paid BELOW thier level of training and education, no not all of them but most of the front line people that are actually teaching. You can't point out one or two salaries and say they make too much.

cgtrav,

No, my friend. I want them taught by the best teachers! An when I have a RIF I want to keep the best as opposed to the most senior ... just because they were more senior. If they're the best keep 'em. If there's a great young teacher, keep 'em.

Don't mind paying for the best! Do mind paying for a mediocre mix!

You mean like how the state of NEBRASKA was treated differently so the Presidident could buy their vote for the next round of entitlement payout? Nebraska doesn't have to pay for the health care bill because they were bought off.

Its ok when your side rams a bill through, but not the other side?

It is so sad how people on the right and the left only spout rhetoric against the other side instead of realizing they are both pawns of their party's power grab, which becomes a money grab. Which we the people are paying.

Let me guess, you are one of those who wanted to make sure the tax cut to the top was extended because of the hardship those making over 250,000 would face if it wasn't. Or maybe you really believe something besides bs would trickle down from it. Are you against corporate welfare? Farm subsidies? Overpaid defense contractors who provide @!$%#ty work? You want a plutocracy?

http://www.businessinsider.com/15-charts-about-wealth-and-inequality-in-america-2010-4?op=1

I am going to keep posting this for those who want to learn something.

Astonished.

Just because I disagree with Walker I don't agree with everything the unions do. I agree we should keep the best but watch now as all the best leave the state teaching jobs because they can and what you will be left with (relatively) is the mediocre (sp) or the truly bad.