@Ben-636050 You're going to get those cuts you're begging for and unless you're a captain of industry I suggest you stock up on the K-Y Jelly.

How true Ben,

It seems the best move to a full and sustained recovery is first to get rid of Obama. Then vote out each and every libbie in congress.

That would make the markets rally worldwide. Second, elect a true conservative with true business experience. Someone who has walked the walk.

Let's get serious... $4 trillion over ten years is not nearly enough.

@Edward-1075991 Yeah, remember that big market rally after Bush let Osama bomb Wall Street? Neither do I - course I do remember the market rally during the Clinton presidency.

@Jim---How does retaining tax breaks while gutting the budget create an environment in which jobs will be created our economy can actually grow?

some sanity please

@Edward-1075991 Yeah, remember that big market rally after Bush let Osama bomb Wall Street? Neither do I - course I do remember the market rally during the Clinton presidency.

You mean the rally caused by Reagan's tax cuts? The rally following the Republican victory in 1996? These happened in spite of Clinton, not because of him.

Echo very simple, it keeps the money in the private sector... which get's spent in the private sector and creates jobs!

MCMetal, thanks for the Ad Hom... and not providing any proof but your opinion to dispute it...

World class like Kaynes right?

MCMetal69

Chip D-2844144
Echo very simple, it keeps the money in the private sector... which get's spent in the private sector and creates jobs!

Yeah , even though world class economists have proven over the past 30 years that that is complete BS and merely GOP rhetoric.....................You and your ilk know better and more than they do..............Talk about being delusional

Cite your sources. Which 'world class economists' exactly? Capitalism is the engine that made us the most prosperous country in the world and the left and their socialist policies are what is destroying it. (That would be you and your ilk).

@Chip D-2844144 When dropping names in an effort to appear intelligent it's advisable to spell them correctly - Keynes.

Do not let the fat cats ( both Dems and Repubs ) in Washington fool you. This is not a big enough cut.

4 trillion over 10 years. 400 billion a year (projected )

We are running close to a 2 trillion dollar deficit THIS year alone with Obama predicting trillion + deficits for the next 10 years.

Exactly how are we paying down our debt, when we still have deficit spending EACH and every year?

Its nothing more then a shell game folks. Until there is a Balanced Budget Amendment in the Constitution, we are screwed.

MCMetal...a lie is an excellent story until the truth is told.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_surplus_did_the_US_have_when_Clinton_left_office

MCMetal69,

And we had a 79% tax rate during the depression and how well did that work?

Opps... your not to good with facts.

MC...so you are asking me now to debunk your next liberal belief by provide another fact. How about this, you show me a fact that supports your claim otherwise. Due to the latest job #'s (ie: getting worse) I don't see how you will succeed in that.

@Chip D-2844144 Tax rate was 24% when the great depression hit. You're not too good with facts yourself.

Where will Washington find $4 trillion in cuts?

Pretty much where they usually find it. Making more cuts on the poor and middle-class people is the government's way in doing things.

Social Security, the disabled, and the programs are the first groups of people that they always take/cut from.

We should be cutting back on government. It's too big, to costly, and crooked to the core. This is where we need to make all the cuts at in order to save, and we need to pull all the troops out of these unnecessary wars in the Middle East as well.

@AK Sabin Those job creating Bush tax cuts are still in effect - where are the jobs genius?

MCMetal, you claimed that it was because we had 90% tax rates during the 50's that we had such great govt... which is 100% false and any economist or history student can tell you why.

I was pointing out that during the WORST economic period of US history we had tax rates as high as 79%...

That is proof enough that higher tax cuts don't lead to job growth!

Sanity, did you miss the almost 2 millions jobs created since the tax cuts passed?

@Chip D---And exactly when is that going to happen? A decade of tax cuts proves that it does not. Have you heard the jobs numbers from this morning? Contradicts your point once again.

@Jim in Houston---no answer?

57 private sector jobs created... over 2 million PRIVATE sector jobs since Dec '10.

You also leave out the 8+ million from 2001-2006... before the Dem's took over the house and Senate.

And again, during the largest period of job loss we have tax rates in the 60's and high 70's and the created no jobs!

Sanity...you are right, it is not JUST taxes..it is also the combined effect of anti corp legislation put forth by a dem controlled government over the most recent past. Thanks for allowing me to clear that up for you.

@AK Sabin GOP has controlled congress for 12 of the last 14 years.

Laurie,

Over the last 10 years, revenue has grown by 21% while inflation has grown by 23%... spending has grown by 60%.

It's not a revenue problem, it's a spending problem by both parties!

Some sanity please,

How is it that you quote me with something that I never wrote??

Your post #1.4 ???

If you want to quote ME...fine. But I never wrote what you quoted.

About 20% MCM... half of that was because of Obama... did you forget abuot his 67K troops at $1,000,000 each?

Jim in Houston,

You mean the rally caused by Reagan's tax cuts? The rally following the Republican victory in 1996? These happened in spite of Clinton, not because of him.

Are you seriously saying that Reagan left this country in a good shape???? Show me one shred of evidence so maybe the historians can rewrite the history.

Clinton signed the Deficit Reduction Act (aka the Omnibus Act of 1993). It reduced spending and increased taxes on 1.2%. By the way, not a single Republican Senator voted for this act. NOT ONE.

When he left the office for Bushie, his unemployment was 3.9% and his budget was balanced. He paid off some of the debt that Reagan and Bush1 accrued. He reduced the size of the fed. government AFTER both Reagan and Bush1 increased it (after Carter reduced it first).

Your claim about the Republican victory in 1996 would be as valid as mine about the Democrat victory in 2006. Look at history and you will quickly see that the American voter shifts the power to the opposite party so that one party does not control 2 out of 3 branches for too long.

Chip D-2844144

You also leave out the 8+ million from 2001-2006... before the Dem's took over the house and Senate.

How do you explain the fact that Bushie almost doubled the unemployment before he left? You can't count jobs created if you don't count the jobs lost. That is a total manipulation of numbers. It's like saying my net worth is million dollars because I don't disclose what I spend.

Let's start with Ron Paul's solution.

Just eliminate the debt we owe to ourselves.

We owe 1.6 Trillion to the Federal Reserve for Bonds they purchased. This is money the US government OWES to the US Government....

Ron Paul 2012

@Edward-1075991 A quote requires these things ""

Bayllie, Clinton paid $0 towards the debt... it hasn't gone down since I believe IKE!

MCM, then dont' blame Bush for Obama's actions, that's all I'm saying!

$67B a year for years he's spending... but the left will blame that on Bush.

They should get it from their pockets, the same pockets that where filled with stolen cash from the false-flag wars.

These good-for-nothing @$$h0le crooks should not be portrayed as the victims here. If they start taking taxes from me, I don't give a dam if it's against the law, but I will not pay them a single cent. They have already taken enough money out of me.

The U.S. is turning into the next Soviet Union, only worse. The sad part is, everyone refuses to accept it.

This is ridiculous. 4 Trillion over 10 years. How can any President expect to negotiate over a period he/she already knows won't be in office? How about cutting 1.5 Trillion from this years budget first since that is how much we are over spending this year alone. Then cut some more to begin the nasty road of paying down our deficit.

If you think eliminating the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy would go far in achieving deficit reduction, let alone offset current spending, then you are truly misguided and should realize this now, not later. I do believe the wealthy should pay their fair share, but I am also a believer that we can spend our time more wisely and do things that would cut spending in a much more effective way. I would feel awkward if I approached my boss (tax payers) to ask for more money because you (government) over-spent and need money.

Funny how many of our politicians feel they are the boss of America and don't have any regrets in placing more tax burden on the middle class. After all, making 250K per year is hardly rich in my book when compared to what we pay our politicians. Give me a break.

We need to do what most businesses would do under these circumstances. Don't give the employee more money; rather, keep them from advancing from within at minimum and in many cases, get rid of the employee. I say get rid of the employee (Obama) and all the others that agree with him regarding tax increases of any kind right now. Prove to me you can cut spending (excel in your job) and then I would consider paying more in taxes (give you a pay increase).

The housing bust put us in this shape. Ask Bill Clinton about his part in the Community Reinvestment Act that forced housing to lend to those that couldn't afford it. The results from bad decisions do not happen overnight, and the presidency in power when that happens is not the fault.

No MCM, I coudl care less about Bush... what I care about is people paying attention to the facts and not blaming someone for something they didn't do!

The Dem's on the flip side have called fixing medicare, medicaid and SS (70% of the budget) off the table!

You're worried about $70B a year... I'm worried about the $2300 B a year!

First thing these stupid politicians should do is draft and pass a balance budget bill requiring them to balance their budget annually. Then perhaps more of them would take it more seriously.

This political theater is a joke. Supposed savings many years down the road. Where are the immediate CUTS now? We are going broke NOW. The current painful cuts in defense, medicare, and social security will be nothing compared to waiting until we really go belly up.

Any poster on this board could cut and balance the budget in two weeks. Lots of people would be unhappy on both sides of the spectrum, which means it would be a good plan. Of course, we're not concerned with getting re-elected and shaking down special interests from both sides of the aisles for bribes- er, contributions, so we could do it. No different from running a business or a household.

DUDE...

They passed PAYGO 2.5 years ago and have gotten around it every time... something tells me they'd get around a BB law!

Chip D-2844144

$67B a year for years he's spending... but the left will blame that on Bush.

Did the 2 wars stop as of January, 20 2009? Did the size of the Department of Homeland Security decrease? How about the military? Are the disabled vets also non-existing as of Jan 20th?

As of 2008 figures (so add another 3 years), the government expects to be spending $59 billion a year to compensate injured warriors in 25 years, up from $29 billion, And the Veterans Affairs Department concedes the bill could be much higher.

So, how can we not blame Bush for the spending due to invading a sovereign country under the false pretenses?

Sure MCM, keep spreading what you heard on Madcow and "tingle up my leg's" show.

No one in power wants to end them... they just want to make sure they are around in 20 years... which under the current Obama plan doesn't happen!

Bayllie, that $67B a year is from the 67K troops at $1,000,000 per he added to Afghanistan...

Keep up please!

Wow -- you all have echo chambers between your ears and lack any sort of reading comprehension skills. What is being discussed are accounting tricks.

Entitlements are NOT being cut. The discussion is about tweaking 'eligibility for benefits', COLAs, and increasing copays/insurance. Entitlements continue virtually unchanged. What can be tweaked can also be un-tweaked.

The $500 billion Medicare cuts in the ACA are REAL stop-payment cuts that have already been enacted into law. These guys are going to credit those cuts in this deal, too.

Cuts in military spending has already been legislated and agreed to by both sides. These guys are going to credit those cuts in this deal, too.

Cleaning up the tax code by eliminating deductions and lowering tax rates are going to increase taxes. These are all standard accounting tricks. The tax code will not be cleaned up, though, because that would put accountants and tax attorneys out of business.

'All hat, no cattle' is a way of life for these obstuctionists. Looks like an expensive suit folds as badly as a cheap one.

Yeah, I know Chip. That's why we must prepare for the worse, and pray for the best. I say buy canned food, ammunition, silver, etc which you can barter with because the dollar is about to take a major hit. If not, well you just made double digit interest in your investment because prices are going to to through the roof. This can't be avoided unfortunately.

Chip D-2844144

Bayllie, that $67B a year is from the 67K troops at $1,000,000 per he added to Afghanistan...

Keep up please!

I just used your quote to make my point that the spending is continuous and it will be until all the vets die as long as no new ones are added. That's not the case, it is.

Yes, the troops were added; the spending on wars increased but if the were no war in Iraq in the first place, Obama would not have to spend on the war in Iraq would he? He would not have to support the disabled vets, would he?

so your spending claim would be valid, chip, only if Obama STARTED the wars. keep up please.

@Sanity, maybe it's time for Americans to take better care for themselves. Companies should also kick in with on-site medical clinics and gyms to keep workers healthy.

Women should use sonograms, et al, to determine beforehand if their child will be born with a disability that will cost the family and govt moneys. It can be done. We have to be responsible for our own selves moving forward.

@Phil, the problem with cutting military bases is that you throw thousands of military out of work....where are the jobs to absorb them?

bayllie, Obama didn't send troops to Iraq... he sent 67K to Afghanistan... what world do you lve in? this has been all over the news for 2 years... even Madcow and Heir Shultz talked about it!

Let's start with Congressional salaries and lifetime benefits.

Chip D-2844144

bayllie, Obama didn't send troops to Iraq... he sent 67K to Afghanistan... what world do you lve in? this has been all over the news for 2 years... even Madcow and Heir Shultz talked about it!

Chip, you like to make up stuff up, don't you? Where did I say specifically that troops were added in Iraq? Obama did add troops but I did not specify where - you added the rest. I did say that spending on wars increased during the Obama Admin. which should have said continued and not increased. By increased I meant the total bill for the wars but I can see how that can be "confused" easily by someone who sees what he wants to see.

By the way, I don't watch Maddow or Shultz - sorry to disappoint you.

And where did I ever mention that $67B a year was going to Iraq? It's 100% NEW spending added by Mr. Obama by adding 67K troops on his OWN choice to Afgahistan...

I wasn't blaming Obama for any other added spending than that.. but you feel the need to defend and deflect anything from him... no matter what he does!

Common Sense-2004266

Let's start with Congressional salaries and lifetime benefits.

It makes you wonder why the Republican Congressmen don't give up their evil, socialist health care they are so against.

Chip D-2844144

And where did I ever mention that $67B a year was going to Iraq? It's 100% NEW spending added by Mr. Obama by adding 67K troops on his OWN choice to Afgahistan...

again chip, he did not start the wars, but he is stuck paying for these ugly stepchildren. he does not have a choice here does he? I guess he could close shop tomorrow but how can we invade a sovereign country, make a total mess out it and then leave without a care in the world? It does not work like that.

MCM and Bush graduated from Yale... just because your "smart" doesn't mean you're actually smart!

Bayllie, thank you as always for failing to ignore the facts, the point and reality! Even the majority of his own party is against his Afghan actions... do you work for the Obama campaign?

Conveniently the Fed removed energy costs from the CPI calculation... So in the future you won't use gasoline or electricity or natural gas. So the delta they describe here is not tied to the reality of a retiree's cost of living... Makes the politicians look good though huh...

Time for a constitutional convention. Abolish the federal government. Make a new one. Drop their debt. It's not ours, it's theirs. Are we invited to their fu-king cocktail parties? Obama raided America, time for a special prosecutor. The system needs to fix itself, before there is war in the streets.

@Robin--Not "your" debt? Really? Didn't use any federal services? Sure about that? Abolish the federal government? How would that work? Republicans didn't spend any federal tax dollars? Obama spent all of our money himself? On cocktail parties? You obviously are going for humor, not substance in your post.

Chip D-2844144

Bayllie, thank you as always for failing to ignore the facts, the point and reality!

Chip, what facts am I ignoring because your statement is too vague.

Even the majority of his own party is against his Afghan actions... do you work for the Obama campaign?

Yes, the Democratic leaders on Capitol Hill are putting pressure on the Obama administration to draw down U.S. troops in Afghanistan faster than many military leaders say is responsible, forcing the president to balance his party’s demands with his generals’ on-the-ground assessment as he nears another milestone in the war. I would like to see both wars end sooner than later, too. But the truth is that Obama needs to end this as safe as possible and he does need to listen to those experts who spent their lives doing this for a living. You can't have too many cooks in the kitchen especially those who never cooked before...

Chip, I am glad to see that the Democrats question Obama - that's how the Democracy works. I wish they would have questioned Bush BEFORE they voted for the Iraqi war because they blindly believed that Bush was telling the truth. Maybe they know now that some presidents will do anything to get their way - and Bush either lied to the American People or he was lied to by his people - pick one.

Either way, the Senate was fooled once..how does the Bushie quote go?...so maybe they now question before they make a decision.

By the way, the Republicans vote almost unanimously based on what can make Obama a one-term president and not on what's best for this country.

The government owns close to half of the national debt. The portion of the national debt owned by individuals, private business, and foriegn governments is around 60 per cent of GDP. The US is actually in good shape financially.

The national debt debate is full of 'scare tactics' to encourage the dimmer of wits to support an unsustainable and irresponsible political positon.

He said, “Everybody acknowledged that there’s going to be pain involved politically on all sides.” My problem with everything these politicans are coming up with is this..not one of their ideas effects them or their wealthy friends in any way..not one..unless you count the further tax cuts they also want. For all the increase in the cost of health care..it does not effect them as we tax payers are footing their health care bills much more than anything we average citizens would ever get. POliticans still jump on spending funds for their own pet projects..may not be much accordiing to the overall debt...but still it counts. The pay raises they have given themselves ...we as their bosses have no say in what they get or when..we have no say in anything they do..right or wrong..and it seems lately..there has been quite a few of them with lots wrong. Consider, they can make all the crooked deals they want to inside congressional walls..and our laws have not effect on them..they do not count.

Please do not cut Social Security, now about $18,000 a year with hospital but no doctor or drugs.

A better idea is to cut all federal employee (about 3 million persons) and federal retiree (about 1.5 million persons) salaries, healthcare, and pensions now about $150,000 average in half. This choice will produce $0.675 trillion a year and still leave federal employees, on average, $75,000 a year not too bad and still more than 4 times what poor Social Security recipients get. 10 x $0.675 trillion = $6.75 trillion in 10 years.

This much will make a dent.

Somehow we have let federal employees compensation inflate to way more than worth. We need value.

The question we ALL need to be asking our congressional reps and the president is if they can find 4 trillion in cuts over 10 years, just how much are they planning on spending since they never decrease a budget from year to year?

Congress and the Administration are toying with a brewing revolution in this country; the only difference from 1929, is the safety net of unemployment insurance, food stamps, medicaid, social security and medicare; once the hole is cut in the safety net, millions are going to fall thru, and when they do you will have a rise in Anarchy; nothing either party has done has helped; except pay off to the banks, insurance corporations and wall street, on the back of the once middle class; Washington is now running around in a hay barn with lit torches, once it ignites there is nothing that can put out the fire that could engulf a nation.

chip; the jobs of 2.2 million created means nothing, when you have 8.6 million jobs lost; all it means is for every 4 jobs lost we replace it with 1 job created, not a good ratio;

Be prepared folks, this thing is about to get very dangerous!

I am constantly amazed. Where do you people get your "facts?" I read these posts and at least 50% contain information presented as fatcual that is either misleading or blatantly incorrect. And many of the "ideas" people post demonstrate they have little understanding of economics, politics, or reality.

If all these people are representative of the average American, and really believe what they are posting, then we as a nation are doomed.

@Jim in Huston1509351

Here's a little history lesson on your buddies spending practices:

Change in gross Federal debt as a percentage of GDP:

Nixon/Ford : + 0.1%

Carter: -3.2%

Reagan 1: +11.3%

Reagan 2: +9.2%

G.H.W. Bush: +13.1%

Clinton 1: -0.6%

Clinton 2: -8.2%

G.W. Bush 1: +6.9%

G.W. Bush 2: +11.7%

Like the bully on the block who "mails" a rock through the window of the Police chief's home then points his finger and blames it all on that little geeky kid who couldn't make a throw from second base to first for the out, your Republican friends of INFALLIBILITY seem to be pulling their usual 'slight-of-hand' with the stupefied American voters with the short memories.

You sir have more sh it than a Christmas Goose.

Raise the revenue, cut spending. You do both, not just one or the other. It's econ 100. Cut defense, tax the wealthiest 2%, cut the pay of congressman and make their benefits on par with the rest of the country, increase tariffs. There are a lot of options, anyone who thinks we shouldn't cut spending, or thinks we should not increase taxes is NOT serious about this issue and their opinions should just be disregarded.

They never will find anything to cut. As I stated in another forum, this Congress is like a drug addict(in this case, a spend addict) who have been allowed to have large amounts of drugs(money) for many years, and has now been told they need to cut back. They will do whatever they can to keep that large flow of drugs (money) coming, be it they lie, cheat, steal or borrow(raising the debt limit) to get that. The problem with both parties is, neither side will really balance the budget even if they could. Way to many years have proven this point. Has there ever been any left over cash been used to pay off the debt in all of these years? If they have, please show me proof(and not just your word) that they HAVE paid on it(and not just the interest).

Where will DC find $4 trillion in cuts?

"We need earmark reform, and when I'm President, I will go line by line to make sure that we are not spending money unwisely." - Obama
Yeah, um, look at all the waste in the stickittous...er...stimulous bills passed by Reid/Pelosi and the bigger one being under Obama. There's a quarter of what they're trying to save right there @ over a trillion. I say all 3 branches spend the next 12 months going back over bills passed in order of highest cost annually to lowest cost annually and ram through amended versions cutting out pork & naming names of those who proposed the earmarks. Both sides would get to play the finger pointing game, but at least it'd clean out some of the floaters making the toilet stink next election day.

Just pass the constitutional amendment demanding a balanced budget already. Make it a treasonous felony to run a deficit. It's robbery of our childrens future. Poor kids are gonna have to pay about 50% in taxes to pay for all our wasteful handouts.

Not declining revenues, eh? Obviously pretty clueless about how the economy works. Did you know that for every person that's unemployed, that's lost revenue for the government? When unemployment is high, government revenues are lower. But hey, that's just simple math. Too complex for you? Mr. Bushy Bush left Obama with more than trillion dollars in defecits, which grew to nearly 2 trillion, DUE TO DECLINING REVENUE, before Obama had a chance to make any monetary decisions whatsoever. The other reason there is declining revenue is that the richest of the rich are paying the lowest tax rates in 50+ years. Republicans unwilling to raise taxes, and dems unwilling to stop spending so much on programs that aren't as important as the unemployment rate.

As Where's Waldo pointed out, debt has generally been created by republicans. Sure, dems tax and spend, but at least they know how to control their money. Even that moron Trump has to declare bankruptcy every so often because he can't handle his money.

The fact is, dems need to cut spending, and conservatives need to be willing to raise taxes on the rich. Until that point, they are both guilty of aiding the economic disaster we are in.

The Military Industrial Complex (The Defense Department) has a budget from 800 billion to possiably as high as 3 trillion dollars if the rumors about how much they spend on black box projects is correct. If we cut that down to 50 Billion a year, close all overseas bases pull ALL troops back to the USA and then tell companies in the USA they get a tax break if they hire soliders who will be released from the Military due to budget cuts, we will save up to 2.9 Trillion Dollars. That's almost 3/4ths of what Obama said he would cut. the rest of the 4 trillion can come from ending the acting president george the lesser's tax cuts to billionares and trillionares, forcing billionares and trillionares to pay back taxes to 2000ad and then ending the department of homeland defense. That could get us as much as 5 trillion in savings.

Look at all of the happy Conservatives! Hurray, the economy continues to falter, and companies are not hiring.

Mission Accomplished. Obstruct any moves by the president to make progress. Threaten to tank the worldwide economy by not raising the debt ceiling. Keep businesses too nervous to hire because of this discord.

Make Obama a one-term president by destroying everything.

Oh, then the Republicans will save the day by giving more tax breaks to the "job creators"

At least they will get rid of "that man" in the whitehouse.

Shame on the Republicans.

LeftLeaningLisa stated: "As Where's Waldo pointed out, debt has generally been created by republicans. Sure, dems tax and spend, but at least they know how to control their money. Even that moron Trump has to declare bankruptcy every so often because he can't handle his money."

Lisa, whenever the Dems. were in power, did they ever have any left over cash at the end of the fiscal year? And if they did, could you please show me that they took that cash and used it to help pay off the national debt and not just the interest? I don't believe you could ever show me that either side ever did this.

Magnum, please provide the name of a single Trillionaire. I believe I saw you post a similar "idea" a few days ago, and it's a nutty now as it was then.

Dave, why don't you actually address the points rather than nitpick on specific vocabulary?

Let's take a look at the facts.

Under Reagan, Mr. Supply-side economics, the debt skyrocketed. Same thing happened with his spawn George Bush. Yet Clinton brought the deficit into a surplus that, if policies were continued, would have eventually paid off the national debt. However, Bush Jr. reversed the policies, and brought us into yet even more deficit. Now, all our money is going into paying off the INTEREST from Reagan's debt, so we have no money to make up for the costs of a recession. It is that simple, folks.

Mr. Anon, if Clinton had a surplus of cash during his term, why wasn't it used to pay on the balance of the debt (not on the interest) while he was still in office?

Clinton was FORCED to balance the budget and reform welfare by the Repub majority. He went kicking and screaming the whole way.

Say what you will, but we need to get Obama and the libbies in Congress OUT!!!! That is the only way we can return to a conservative Congress and Presidency that will responsibly quintuple our national debt, remove all social programs for U.S. citizens while increasing aid to our 'allies', create jobs by using us to liberate more oppressed peoples and use our brilliant rhetoric to state that "deficits don't matter, we are at war and you either support us or you are a commie, socialist, Islamic fanatic tratior and should be locked up in Gitmo."

Alright Mr. Anon, let's address a specific point in one of your "facts." Many people compare the surplus of President Clinton to the defecit of President Bush as a way to justify their arguments. While President Clinton did close the gap somewhat with reduced spending and significant tax increases on the wealthy,

"an equally if not more powerful influence was the booming economy and huge gains in the stock markets, the so-called dot-com bubble, which brought in hundreds of millions in unanticipated tax revenue from taxes on capital gains and rising salaries."

(source: factcheck org, retrieved 8 Jul 11)

I think citing President Clinton as an example that Democratic policies are superior is misleading. While I agree that Clinton's policies did contribute to his surplus, I think your statement that they would have paid off the debt is inaccurate. I also believe that those who claim credit for the Republicans who "forced" him to cut spending is also inaccurate.

Here's a suggestion..

PAYCHECKS!! Starting with

Obama

Pelosi

Reid

Biden

then the rest of the democratic congress that overspent!

hypocrisy, we need to clean house overall, and stop putting bride takers in there, that goes for both sides. We need people in there who will work for just that, the people, not for the money they can pocket for themselves. That is all both parties are showing themselves as anymore. Both sides tack pork onto bills that have nothing to do at all with the pork they want slipped through. Would you want to vote for someone to balance a budget, who spent millions of dollars to get elected for a job that only pays 150-200 thousand a year? if you do, then maybe this is what is wrong with the country today.

You people who rail against libbies make me laugh so much, only because your 'conservies' have sucked just as much if not more. Go ahead and root for the fastest person with no legs to win a race. Makes you look brilliant! And, of course, shows us that you are wearing your finest pink skirts.

Here are some costs that only the flaming egotistical radicals of the 'conservies' and the 'libbies' would hate, but that would get us some revenue:

Cut funding for the Libya campaign. We've done enough.

Cut tax breaks for Oil Companies...because it makes no sense

Cut tax breaks for religions....yes they give back to society, but it is hypocritical and isn't worth it.

Cut salaraies not in the wrong (Governor Walker way) but the correct (Governor Christie) across the board for teachers, so that they universally earn a bit less, but across all. Don't pick and choose.

Foreclose immediately on non-primary homes that have failed to pay their mortgages. Meanwhile, raid the funds of every major bank executive who got a bonus when their bank collapsed. Use the money to help pay off the US debt.

Stop sending money to Pakistan. Obvious.

This is a start. Of course, there's plenty to go....

Not just paychecks, but benefits. Again we say, cut the elitist benefits and make Congress use the same healthcare, retirement, and follow the same laws as the rest of us. Make it so when they are voting on something that will affect us, it will also affect themselves. Maybe then we would see them do what is right for the country.

The whole thing is a joke. It's a manufactured crisis. Get rid of the tax cuts for the wealthy and the "crisis" is over.

A complete joke.

Tax cuts did bring new jobs, but failed fiscal restraint lost jobs. I'd hate to see what would happen if the tax cuts were taken away. We have all the conjecture about what is right and wrong, and it's easy to say take away the tax cuts to the rich. Problem being is we really don't know what would happen if we did.

The way I see it is we are going to be paying more taxes through the changes they have put forth, all of us. Just because they take away tax deductions and fee deductions doesn't mean we don't get a tax increase. We do. They have been doing it for awhile now. What about when the Fed cuts money to the States and then the States have to charge more tax, or they cut funds to the counties and cities. Then our property taxes go up. The Fed has been doing this already and we have been paying more taxes because of it. It is all tax increase.

They say they want to tax the big companies more and that will translate into higher cost of goods for us. If they add a tax on the oil companies, we will pay more at the pump. Tax increases don't help us, we end up paying it anyway. Cutting spending is the only way to get back on track.

I remember the 80's...Reaganomics sucked! So did his theory of trickle down economics!

Ladies and Gentlemen: Many of you are correct and many of you are incorrect in your assessments and statements. Armchair quarterbacking and finger pointing might make for self-satisfied rationalizing, however, the issue is, in a nutshell, with folks like this in charge, we are screwed.

Our President? Read twice and think about it! You want this President to continue? I say not...

Look at his Czars...anti-business..anti- american.
As many correctly predicted from day one, Barack Hussien Obama is
following the plan of Cloward & Piven, two professors at Columbia University ..
They outlined a plan to socialize America by overwhelming the system
with government spending and entitlement demands.

Add up the clues below. Taken individually they're alarming.

Taken as a whole, it is a brilliant, Machiavellian game plan to turn

the United States into a socialist/Marxist state with a permanent majority

that desperately needs government for survival ... and can be counted

on to always vote for bigger government.

Why not? They have no responsibility to pay for it.

Universal health care . The health care bill had very little to do with health

care. It had everything to do with unionizing millions of hospital and

health care workers, as well as adding 15,000 to 20,000 new IRS agents (who will join government employee unions).

Obama doesn't care that giving free health care to 30 million Americans

will add trillions to the national debt.

What he does care about is that it cements the dependence of those 30 million voters to Democrats and big government .
Who but a socialist revolutionary would pass this reckless spending bill

in the middle of a depression?

Cap and trade. Like health care legislation having nothing to do with
health care, cap and trade has nothing to do with global warming.

It has everything to do with redistribution of income, government control
of the economy and a criminal payoff to Obama's biggest contributors.
Those powerful and wealthy unions and contributors (like GE, which owns
NBC, MSNBC and CNBC) can then be counted on to support everything Obama wants.

They will kick-back hundreds of millions of dollars in contributions to

Obama and the Democratic Party to keep them in power.
The bonus is that all the new taxes on Americans with bigger cars,
bigger homes and businesses helps Obama "spread the wealth around."

Make Puerto Rico a state. Why? Who's asking for a 51st state?
Who's asking for millions of new welfare recipients and government
entitlement addicts in the middle of a depression?

Certainly not American taxpayers.
But this has been Barack Hussien Obama's plan all along.

His goal is to add two new Democrat senators, five Democrat congressman and a million loyal Democratic voters who are dependent on big government.

Legalize 12 million illegal Mexican immigrants.

Just giving these 12 million potential new citizens free health care alone could overwhelm the system and bankrupt America .
But it adds 12 million reliable new Democrat voters who can be counted
on to support big government.
Add another few trillion dollars in welfare, aid to dependent children,
food stamps, free medical, education, tax credits for the poor, and
eventually Social Security ..

Stimulus and bailouts. Where did all that money go?

It went to Democrat contributors, organizations (ACORN), and unions -- including billions of dollars to save or create jobs of government employees across the country.

It went to save GM and Chrysler so that their employees could
keep paying union dues.

It went to AIG so that Goldman Sachs could be bailed out

(after giving Obama almost $1 million in contributions).

A staggering $125 billion went to teachers (thereby protecting their union dues).

All those public employees will vote loyally Democrat to protect their
bloated salaries and pensions that are bankrupting America ..

The country goes broke, future generations face a bleak future, but Obama, the Democrat Party, government, and the unions grow more powerful.

The ends justify the means.

Raise taxes on small business owners, high-income earners, and job
creators. Put the entire burden on only the top 20 percent of taxpayers,

redistribute the income, punish success, and reward those who did

nothing to deserve it (except vote for Obama).

Reagan wanted to dramatically cut taxes in order to starve the government. Barack Obama wants to dramatically raise taxes to starve his political opposition. With the acts outlined above, Barack Hussien Obama and his regime have created a vast and rapidly expanding constituency of voters dependent on big government; a vast privileged class of public employees who work for big government; and a government dedicated to destroying capitalism and installing themselves as socialist rulers by overwhelming the
system.

Add it up and you've got the perfect Marxist scheme -- all devised by
Columbia University college classmate Barack Hussien Obama

using the Cloward and Piven Plan

Someone between President Clinton and President Obama added $6.1 trillion to the national debt.

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm

President G.H.W. Bush's last budget ended on Sept. 30, 1993. The national debt was $4.4 trillion.

President Clinton's last budget ended on Sept. 30, 2001. The national debt was $5.8 trillion.

President Obama's first budget (continuing resolution, actually) started on Oct. 1, 2009. The national debt was $11.9 trillion.

President Obama's budgets (continuing resolutions, actually) have added $2.4 trillion to the national debt. President Obama has added $1.2 to 1.3 trillion each year to the national debt.

President Clinton added $1.4 trillion to the national debt over his 8 year term.

The debt limit was raised by about $1 trillion each year from 2002 to 2008. The debt limit was raised twice in 2008. The debt limit has been raised 10 times since 2001.

http://origin-www.congress.org/news/2011/04/25/congress_qa_debt_ceiling

You figure it out...

Cuts don't pay debt! All cuts will do is minimize future debt, but how is current debt going to be paid off? You need money to do that.

Some corrections are needed with some comments from above. A progressive, liberal program called the New Deal pulled us out of a depression. A weakening of the reforms from that period put us into the financial crisis of 2008, IMO.

For you Reagan is God conservatives, don't forget that he also raised taxes. Not once, but multiple times. http://money.cnn.com/2010/09/08/news/economy/reagan_years_taxes/index.htm

For you left and right wingers, your belief in the extreme has blinded you to facts. So instead of supporting your particular sides vitriol, try reading and understanding the whole problem. Then maybe you can add some substance to the conversation.

This problem didn't just pop up in 2008. This has been building for the last 70 years and it can not be all fixed in one sweeping act of reform. It is up to us, the citizens of the US, to educate our selves of the problems then hold our elected officials to the fire to correct the problems. We are the solution and it is about time we start accepting our responsibilities as a citizen, irregardless of political affiliation.

How true Ben,

It seems the best move to a full and sustained recovery is first to get rid of Obama. Then vote out each and every libbie in congress.

That would make the markets rally worldwide. Second, elect a true conservative with true business experience. Someone who has walked the walk.

OH The brainwashed. Please do some research and understand how a lot of these so called Great Business Men made their millions.

Outsourcing -

• More than 3 million manufacturing jobs have disappeared since 1998, and the Economic Policy Institute estimates 59 percent—or 1.78 million—of these jobs have been lost due to the explosion in the U.S. manufacturing trade deficit over the period.
• Goldman Sachs estimates 400,000–600,000 professional services and information sector jobs moved overseas in the past few years, accounting for about half of the total net job loss in the sector over the period. A Deloitte Research survey found one-third of all major financial institutions are already sending work offshore, with 75 percent reporting they would do so within the next 24 months. A U.C. Berkeley study found 25,000 to 30,000 new outsourcing-related jobs advertised in India by U.S. firms in just one month in 2003.
• One service sector hard hit by job losses is information technology, especially software. The pro-outsourcing consulting firm Global Insight estimates we lost 104,000 information technology jobs to offshore outsourcing between 2000 and 2003, more than a quarter of the 372,000 jobs lost in the sector overall during the period. The Economic Policy Institute found employment in U.S. software-producing industries fell by 128,000 jobs from 2000 to early 2004, while about 100,000 new jobs producing software for export to the U.S. were created in India over the same period of time.
• States are outsourcing public sector jobs as well, though most state governments do not know exactly how many. At least forty states contract out administration of electronic benefit cards for the food stamps program offshore. In one audit, the state of Washington found 36 out of 41 agencies were contracting out work overseas. A recent study by INPUT Research projects outsourcing of state and local government technology contracts will grow from $10 billion last year to $23 billion in 2008.
• From November 2002 to January 2004, the U.S. Department of Labor certified 246,398 workers who lost their jobs due to trade for Trade Adjustment Assistance (TAA). This is in addition to the estimated 1,112,775 workers who were certified for TAA between 1994 and the end of 2002. These figures are very under-inclusive: they only count workers who know about the TAA program, apply for it, and qualify under the program’s strict eligibility requirements. The numbers do not include most service sector workers or workers who have lost their jobs due to shifts in production to China—neither group is eligible for TAA. Nor do they include workers erroneously denied TAA certification by the Labor Department.
• The Economic Policy Institute estimates that between 1993 and 2000, our lopsided trade policies, reflected in the explosive increase in the U.S. trade deficit, cost Americans a net 3 million jobs and job opportunities. The growth in the NAFTA trade deficit alone is associated with nearly 900,000 lost jobs and job opportunities through 2002.

So I guess the first thing he would do is OUTSOURCE Government!

We don't need a CEO running the Country, we need people to stop watching Hannity and Olberman.

Obama will probably lose the next election and nothing will change but the name on the door.

The waste and fraud many of you are referencing (as an alternative to the cuts being proposed in this article) is made possible, for the most part, by our inability to control and validate Social Security numbers. One study indicates that roughly 8% of our population is involved in fraud (a copy of that study follows).

JUST LOOK AT THESE EXAMPLES WHICH WERE PROVIDED TO MSNBC

"This is a fabulous list of obvious criminals," Coggeshall said.

A partial version of that list was provided to msnbc. It includes:

*A woman named Angela, from Brooklyn, who has used 76 SSNs, 14 first names, 10 last names, 14 dates of birth, and 31 addresses during recent credit applications. She has even applied as both a man and a woman.

*A man named Thomas from Philadelphia, who has used 165 SSNs, 44 dates of birth, and 40 addresses.

Study: Roughly 1 in 15 adults lie about SSNs, DOBs on credit applications

By Bob Sullivan

Roughly 1 in 15 U.S. adults are intentionally committing fraud by lying about their Social Security number, date of birth, or other personal information on credit applications, claims a study released today by consulting firm ID Analytics.

Eight million people are using two or more Social Security numbers, 16 million have used multiple dates of birth, and another 10 million have intentionally co-mingled their personal information with a spouse's information, the report says.

Fraudsters range from full-time, professional ID thieves, to applicants simply trying to evade creditors' background checks, to citizens trying to trick government agencies into giving them benefits they're not entitled to.

In all, 45 million Americans entered incorrect information on applications for cell phone service, auto loans, credit cards, or other similar transaction, ID Analytics says. While some of those mistakes could be the result of applicants simply being inconsistent with their names, roughly one-third to one-half of those involve deliberate attempts to escape a bad credit history or otherwise evade detection of a negative event in their past, said Stephen Coggeshall, chief technology officer for ID Analytics.

With 267 million adults studied, roughly 8 percent are actively committing fraud. He estimated.

"This is a fabulous list of obvious criminals," Coggeshall said.

A partial version of that list was provided to msnbc. It includes:

*A woman named Angela, from Brooklyn, who has used 76 SSNs, 14 first names, 10 last names, 14 dates of birth, and 31 addresses during recent credit applications. She has even applied as both a man and a woman.

*A man named Thomas from Philadelphia, who has used 165 SSNs, 44 dates of birth, and 40 addresses.

*A man named Michael, from Manhattan, who has used 100 SSNs, and 96 addresses.

"Most of these attempts are caught by creditors, but enough of them get through that people keep trying it," Coggeshall said.

ID Analytics is a data collection firm that specializes in helping companies separate imposters from honest consumers when they apply for credit. Its client list is long, and includes many major financial firms as well as the Social Security Administration. Over the past decade, it has amassed files on virtually every American who is active in the financial system. It now tracks 290 million Social Security numbers and nearly 300 million people.

The firm has access to 1.4 billion credit applications filed with clients in recent years, and studied that data to look for fraud patterns. A consistent bag of tricks used by fraudsters emerged — those who use multiple Social Security numbers often simply increment the last digit by 1, or the last two digits by 10, Coggeshall said. Those who change their date of birth will add a month, or a year. Looking for such patterns allowed the firm to remove honest typographical errors from its findings, Coggeshall said.

ID Analytics sells its research to banks and other creditors to help them fight fraud; its massive database of credit event records has been used to assert startling findings before. Last year, the company said that 40 million Social Security numbers have been attached to more than one name, and 20 million people use more than one Social Security number.

Many of the mistakes found in that study were not fraud, but merely the result of innocent typographic errors — a clerk at a store reversing two digits when typing in a credit card application, for example. The study released today began as an attempt to separate the mistakes from the fraud, Coggeshall said. He believes the algorithms designed for this test kept honest mistakes out of his final tally. A separate algorithm accounts for nicknames like Bob, Bobby, and Robert — those were removed from the tally, too.

The 45 million deliberate compromised identities that remained surprised even Coggeshall.

"Deliberate identity manipulation is far more prevalent than we imagined," he said. "I think there are broader social statements implications associated with this." Some elements of society may not see lying about a name or a number on a credit application as a crime, or as morally wrong, he said.

Lying on an application often is a crime — but why aren't law enforcement agencies using ID Analytics' research to round up thousands of repeat identity thieves and throw them in jail?

"It is not our business or mission to provide data directly to law enforcement...but we are always open to working with law enforcement and have in the past," Coggeshall said, declining to offer details.

The study sheds light on why some credit granters seem to be overly paranoid, suspicious, or demanding, when consumers apply for credit.

"People like to beat up credit granters, but they are doing their best to keep costs as low as possible," he said.

The results should equally anger credit granters and honest consumers.

"People are harmed in two ways by this. A fraudster can inadvertently use your information to obtain credit. But the second way is, overall people have to pay more through increased fees and costs for services when fraudsters are successful," Coggeshall said.

Charts, we could begin this with a vote on the war in Libya!

If the government is going to increase the age for retirement for SS recipients, and cut benefits in medicare , the benefit for the bureaucracy need to change as well, we pay millions of dollars in benefits that private companies don't have , benefit for an special class of employees, if everything must be on the table include those benefits ,no sacred cows, not only the private have to pay for the consequences.

The first cuts should be Congressional Pay and Senatorial Pay. Buy your own health insurance in the free market, cut your office budget and eliminate some staffers. This would send a message to skeptical people like me that this anything more then Political pandering and a way to appease the mob.

Nerm_l,

You appear to be complaining (blaming) Bush. The problem is you shoot yourself in the foot with your own numbers.

Under your assumptions, Bush added about 765 Billion to the debt each of his eight years as president. That is compared to, as you have noted, 1.2 - 1.4 trillion that have been added by Obama each year since he took office. This means that Obama has added in two years what it took Bush 3 years to add and by the end of his current term he will add the same amount that it took Bush 6 years to run up.

Of course there is one major falacy in your theory and that is the 850 Billion that Obama spent on the porkulus plan to keep unemployment under 8%. So the real Bush number is more like 650 Billion a year over eight years.

Assuming we stay on the Obama trajectory, the deficit tally under Obama's first term will equal all 8 years of the Bush presidency.

You want to know how you start to shrink that? Start by getting rid of all the Czars that Obama has put in place.

Next step, cut the salaries of the elected officials to realistic levels. If you're elected to serve an area where the average income is 50K, that is what you get paid. If the area makes on average 100k, that is what you get. If the average income of the area goes up, you get a raise. If not, Sorry Charlie. If you want to be real simple, all officials holding national public office get whatever the national average income is.

Next step, no more lifetime of income at full pay for ex-politicians. There's nothing wrong with them receiving some retirment money from government, but even if I work until I'm 90 I won't get the full amount of pay I had when i was working after I retire; politicians shouldn't either.

Next step, get rid of the income tax. Tax any and all purchases at a much lower rate than any of the current income tax rates. It does two things. First, everyone has to pay a little bit of something. Second, you can cut the number of workers in the IRS and the Super tanker loads of paper that are run through by having a simple system in place rather than 30000000 pages of mumbo jumbo and special interest BS.

Minus all the Partisan (Demoncrap, Repugnant, In Depend (Adult Diaper) Crapola.

Do not fund the President Obama Health Care Reform. That will cost 1.7 Trillion USDs (Adusted for Inflation 2.1 Trillion USDs).

Solution: Implement the President FDR Universal Health Care For All US Citizens. This is done by getting the Insurance Corporations out of the Medical Profession. Ilegal Aliens (Non US Taxpayers, Loyal Citizens of another Nation) get nothing (unless they pay before they are deported).

Results: US Citizens pay $42 for Unlimited Medical Treatments. And not increase the National Debt by 1.7 Trillion USDs. (adjusted for Inflation 2.1 Trillion USDs, more than half of the 4 Trillion that needs to be cut, 4 Trillion - 2.1 Trillion USDs).

Medicare, Medicaid, etc.: Instead of cutting Medicare, Medicaid, etc.. 1. No more "Benefits" and Public Assistance paid for by US Taxpayers for Illegal Aliens. This would decrease the State of California's yearly Budget by 25 Billion of their yearly Budget of 79 Billion (more than 1/4) with the State of California begging for US Taxpayer (Federal income taxes, aka the Budget Cuts needed of 4 Trillion USDs) Bailouts. 2. Eliminate the Insurance Corporations from the management of Medicare, with as stated by President Obama September 20, 2009, Face the Nation, the Insurance Companies are padding their costs to make Profits of $17 Billion to $18 Billion USDs per year. (so a decrease from the 4 Trillion by 18 Billion USDs, 4 Trillion - 18 Billion).

Solution US Defense Budget: Cut the $846 Billion USDs US Defense Budget by almost 50% by eliminating the near hundred million US Civilians employed directly and indirectly by the US Military. All of these current expensive US Civilian positions would be filled by the cheaper US Military Personnel. This would also increase the numbers of US Military Personnel required from the 92 % of US Citizens that never served in the US Military (and no nothing first hand), this would increase the pool of available US Citizens to be recalled for Future Wars, while not degrading the US Military Capabilities, also more US Citizens would have second thoughts about letting the Politicians start a War, if it is possible to get recalled to Active Duty.). The positions that were previously occupied and accomplished by US Military Personnel now occupied by expensive US Civilians are (not all inclusive): Logistics, Supply, Transportation (contracted out to US Airlines, US Container Ships, US Shipping Companies (Ground transportation) of US Military personnel, equipment, sustainment, etc.), Maintenance (Aircraft, Ship and Boat (Submarine), Vehicle, Weapons, Electronics, Communications, Facilities, Dry Docks, etc.), Sanitation (Water Purification, Shower Facilities, Laundry Services, etc.), Food Service, Personnel Administration, Computers, Manufacturing at Goverment Owned Government Operated (GOGO) and Government Owned Contractor Operated (GOCO) Plants and Factories, the Pentagon (filled with Political Appointees and Interns with no US Military nor Intelligence Agency experience nor training), Training, etc. (there is much more).

This would also mean major Cuts to the USN and USAF that have the Majority of the Cold War Era Conventional Warfare Forces (things designed specifically for the Cold War). This is unpopular with US Congress especially those that these obsolete US Military Equipment is manufactured at (US Civilian Jobs). This would require a realignment of the US Military Forces and Equipment. And the US Politicians (US Citizens also) and US Military Conventional Warfare Officers mentality from Cold War Era US Military Conventional Warfare to the current and Future US Military Asymmetric Warfare (invest in the longterm training and retention of US Military Personnel, no longer the Cold War Era mentality of Quantity (throw aways) instead of the US Military Asymmetric Warfare Quality).

Another Factor would be Mandatory Compulsory US Military Service (into the US Military Ground Combat Forces, NOT the USAF nor USN as reflected by President Obama's April 2009 Defense Budget Cuts of the USAF and USN.). This creates employment (the individual US Servicemember, US Manufacturing (MREs, Uniforms, Weapons, etc.), US Raw Material Processing, other US Military Jobs to support the Servicemember (the current expensive US Civilians eliminated from these positions), etc.. With the US Military spending money (creating US Civilian Jobs) at US Civilian Fast Food, Restaurants, Lawyers, Theaters, Car Dealerships, Local Government (revenues), State Government (revenues), Schools (their dependents and US Military Personnel), Teachers for the Schools (all levels including College for the US Military), Service Stations, Retail Sales, etc. (very long list that I did not list, by following the money (detailed research)).

Results: (4 Trillion - 423 Billion USDs). And a Stronger US Military, equipped for the current and future Wars.

TReed - Some corrections are needed with some comments from above. A progressive, liberal program called the New Deal pulled us out of a depression. A weakening of the reforms from that period put us into the financial crisis of 2008, IMO.

BALONEY. President FDR's New Deals to the American People PROLONGED THE GREAT DEPRESSION.

What did work for the US to get out of the (Global) Great Depression:

President FDR using Hilter's, Mussolini's, Hirohito's successful models that got them out of the Great Depression YEARS before the US, President FDR: a. Nationalized US Industry and Businesses., b. Suspended the Activities of US Labor Unions (the previous US Labor Unions of the Henry Ford Era were wiped out by the Great Depression and taken over as a "Legit Business" with Political "Clout" by "Italian Organized Crime" that was proven to be sympathetic to Mussolini (US Labor Union Strikes during the US Military Liberation of Sicily and Italy, when the US Labor Union Strikers turned violent President FDR authorized the US Military Police to use Deadly Force, resulting in the machinegunning of US Labor Union Strikers organized by "Italian Organized Crime" BBC Documentary) this suspension of US Labor Union Activities is why it is Propaganda (Hitler style) of the US Labor Unions falsely claiming that they implemented the recommendations of the US War Department Study to prevent Catestrophic Accidents at Ammunitons Plants at the President FDR Nationalized Industry (Work Place Safety (eye protection, hearing protection, women's hair lengths, fire extinguishers, aprons, protective clothing, etc.), skills for pay (minimum wage), no child labor, Saturday (Jews) and Sunday (Christians) off for Religious Worship, maximum hour of work, minimum required hours of sleep, etc.. c. Sold the War Materials made in the Nationalized US Industry to England from 1939 to 1941 before the US entered WWII and the official date of the end of the Great Depression. As this increased US Employment (Jobs), increased the US Standard of Living and started to get the US out of the Great Depression, the US Entry into WWII finally got the US out of the Great Depression. And the 1933 Glass Steagall Acts made Illegal the Causes of the 1907 Depression and the 1929-1939 Great Depression. With Both Parties removing the Glass Steagall Acts in 2000 resulting in the Current 60-100 Trillion USD "Global Economic Crisis" consisting of the "Mortgage Crisis", "Financial Crisis", "Credit Crisis", "Banking Crisis", "Wall Street Crisis", etc.. d. Implemented Universal Health Care for All US Citizens (he knew that US Insurance Corporations at that time were also a "Legit" Business of "Italian Organized Crime, as they used to have Arsonist Tommy The Torch sell Business and Home Owners Insurance, think extortion racket), this is why his Universal Health Care was successful by eliminating the Insurance Corporations from the Medical Profession.

The Removal of the Glass Steagall Acts by both Political Parties is why the US is NOT in a Recession and IS in a Depression (same Causes as previous US and Global Depressions).

add to #1.131.

Since the US is in a Depression not Recession. US the same SUCCESSFUL solutions that resulted in the US getting out of the Great Depression (and President FDR's New Deal with the American People did not and only prolonged the US Great Depression).

Solution: By Reinstating the Glass Steagall Acts, the Billion USD Bailouts would have/will become unnecessary (a very long explanation). US will no longer be vulnerable to Financial Weapons of Mass Destruction, that can (and did) wipe out a Nation's Government and Economy.

Results: 4 Trillion USDs - hundreds of Billions USDs (not returned to the US Citizens but Taken by US Congress and spent (including on their automatic pay raises.).

Before anyone says "too long", "derail", etc. DO THE RESEARCH IF YOU ARE SERIOUS in solving the problem uninformed, uneducated, non factual emotive opinions will just result in everyone in the US in something worse than a Great Depression (starving to death) or being rationed on can of dog food a week (requiring you to stretch it out like your great grandparents into Hobo Stew).

While you all were distracted worrying about Lindsay Lohan....the Republinazi in Congress passed a bill giving 149 million of your tax dollars to cotton farmers in Brazil in the form of farmer subsidies. The Democrammunists voted against it.

149 million. It's a start, no thanks to the *less government lower taxes* chanting dinosaurs from the Goofy Oblivious Politicians.

Amen,

You have roving MOBS as it is, with rising food prices this will get interesting.

saxon

Congress and the Administration are toying with a brewing revolution in this country; the only difference from 1929, is the safety net of unemployment insurance, food stamps, medicaid, social security and medicare; once the hole is cut in the safety net, millions are going to fall thru, and when they do you will have a rise in Anarchy; nothing either party has done has helped; except pay off to the banks, insurance corporations and wall street, on the back of the once middle class; Washington is now running around in a hay barn with lit torches, once it ignites there is nothing that can put out the fire that could engulf a nation.

chip; the jobs of 2.2 million created means nothing, when you have 8.6 million jobs lost; all it means is for every 4 jobs lost we replace it with 1 job created, not a good ratio;

Be prepared folks, this thing is about to get very dangerous!

Couldn't agree more and may I add? Our economy is going to collapse anyway I just don't know the date.

David - could you quote sources. The initial policies to fix the depression were done by Hoover and failed. Through FDR's New Deal and Second New deal started the recovery from the depression, even though there was a recession in '37 - '38. In 1938, a group called the "conservative coalition" that reversed some of the New Deals' programs, because the unemployment dropped to 2%. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression. Yes, I agree that WWII had finally pulled us the rest of the way out of the Depression, the downside was the huge increase in the deficit which is where our problem lies at this moment.

TReed -- WWII did not just pull the US out of the Depression - it kicked the economy out of the stadium.

The average annual growth in GDP from 1941 to 1946 was around 30 per cent. The 1940 GDP was $101.4 billion. The 1947 GDP was $244 billion and continued to grow until the current recession. WWII more than doubled the size of the economy. The bulk of the debt from WWII was paid off by the end of President Eisenhower's time in office.

http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/TableView.asp?SelectedTable=5&Freq=Qtr&FirstYear=2009&LastYear=2011

"Third, Congress could require those getting benefits such as Medicare to pay more of the cost of the program, as the Domenici-Rivlin panel proposed."

Let's be realistic. According to Obama's own 2011 Budget projections, Medicare will generate only $2.917 Trillion in revenues over the next 10 years, but will incur costs of $6.621 Trillion in costs, for a Deficit of about $3.704 Trillion over 10 years on this single program alone.

Why should recipients expect full benefits when they only contribute a fraction of the costs? Either the benefits have to be cut (Ryan's plan), or contributions (payroll taxes) have to be increased significantly, or a combination of each.

Based on Obama's projections, I estimate that the Medicare payroll taxes need to be increased from 2.9% (1.45% each from employers and employees) to about 6.6% (3.3% each from employers and employees). That's an extra $64 per month for the typical employer and a similar amount from the employee. There is no cap on contributions, so the more people make, the more they pay.

That is what is needed to make the program 'solvent'. Something has to give, because there is no 'Free Lunch' - unless you're on welfare, in which case someone else has to pay for you.

TReed - David - could you quote sources.

I would have to post five pages front and back of single spaced references for what I condensed into one page of information from detailed research since my 1990 Research Paper to US Government (updated 1993, and 2009).

You sound just like the US Congressional Representatives (not meant as a compliment) that I had to explain Swaps and Derivatives to, and they were some of the same !d!ots that eliminated the Glass Steagall Acts with the 1999 Gramm Leach Bliley Act, and the 2000 Modernization Act.

All the Employment Programs in the World cannot make up for 60-100 Trillion USDs just like the New Deals could not make up for the Causes of the Great Depression (Trillions USDs, single digit). You are looking at the Symptoms (Effects) and not the Causes or Results (you step on a nail (Cause) that goes into your foot, so the doctor gives you antibiotics to prevent an infection (Symptom) and painkillers (Symptom) and leaves the nail (Cause) in your foot).

TReed -The initial policies to fix the depression were done by Hoover and failed. Through FDR's New Deal and Second New deal started the recovery from the depression, even though there was a recession in '37 - '38. In 1938, a group called the "conservative coalition" that reversed some of the New Deals' programs, because the unemployment dropped to 2%. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression.

Wikipedia is NOT a valid source of information. Read the Wikipedia Disclaimer.

Nope. Prior to WWII. President FDRs Nationalization of US Industry and Businesses (under Federal Management, Rules, and Laws) increased the US Employment, this was something that the New Deals to the American People could never do (single digit employment increase, from the double digit US Unemployment of 25% or more). The reason that President FDR's New Deals did NOT work is unlike what Hitler, Mussolini, Hirohito did years before the US getting out of the Great Depression, he (FDR) did not Nationalize the Labor Unions and use them as a cohesive enormous driving force (what most people ignore is that Mussolini's Black Shirts, Hitler's Brown Shirts (National Socialist German Workers Party) were Political Labor Unions also. This is why pre WWII Hitler could start his National Works Programs to get the majority of the German people back to work building the Autobahns, Bahns, Nationalized Industry, waterways, etc. to get Germany out of the Great Depression years before the US.

TReed -Yes, I agree that WWII had finally pulled us the rest of the way out of the Depression, the downside was the huge increase in the deficit which is where our problem lies at this moment.

WWII did NOT result in a huge increase to the US deficit. What did was the US forgiving all money owed to the US in the form of the loans and the lend lease programs. And the US becoming Isolationist again while building up Germany and Japan under the Marshall Plan and MacArthur Plan to better than the US (including later teaching of American W.E. Deming Principles), while President Eisenhower was tearing down the US Industry (mostly the Defense Military Industrial Complex instead of conversion to US Civilian Industry) as to how the US Military got caught with not having equipment during the start of the Korean "Conflict" (specifically Task Force Smith no antitank weapons against Tanks). This is just like prior to WWII the majority of US Battle Rams (not Battleships, hulls designed to ram smaller ships) were built from 1911-1917 and were easily sunk during the Pearl Harbor Attacks (lack of antiaircraft batteries), this too was due to Defense Budget Cuts after WWI and a resulting decrease of US Industry (US Civilian Jobs) contributing to some of the Great Depression Unemployment later on (US Economy, Job Creation, etc. is not instant gradification).

David - If I was writing a paper, I would not use Wiki as a source. But when there are resources documented in the footnotes, then that can direct the reader into other resources.The reason the Japanese were able to sink so many battleships was because they were lined up 2 to 4 deep, they couldn't move the ships. The US didn't believe the Japanese could or would an attempt an attack on Hawaii.

"Where will Washington find $4 trillion in cuts?"

Check the politician's freezers!

TReed,

Here is an example of what I mean about pages of references, I was told by many Newsvine Posters that are NOT interested in the Facts and only believe that their uninformed uneducated non factual emotive short post opinions are valid claiming that I am writing a novel:

President Obama on Face the Nation, September 20, 2009, pertaining to Medicare:

Obama: No, the difference is that they're making huge profits on it, Bob. I mean, let's take the Medicare HMO programs that are being run by insurance companies. It's estimated by everybody that they're overcharging by about 14 percent. This amounts to about $177 billion over 10 years. About $17 billion a year, $18 billion a year. That's just going to pad their profits, hasn't been shown to make Medicare recipients any healthier. And in fact because those huge subsidies are going to insurance companies, Medicare recipients are not getting a good deal. Now if we are enforcing what should be the rules around Medicare and making sure the people are getting a bang for the buck, it's not going to be possible for insurance companies to simply pass on those costs to Medicare recipients because ultimately it's Uncle Sam that's paying for those services anyway.

With President Obama having a fictional character "Uncle Sam" paying, when it is the US Taxpayers. And why did he NOT fix the problem of the Insurance Companies padding their Cost to make profits of $17 to $18 Billion USDs:

Unlikely ally of health care reform: business
Insurers, drug companies came on board early and may profit from it

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35989945/ns/business-us_business/

This is how President Obama got his "Unlimited Corporate Campaign Contributions" of 1 Billion USDs. All perfectly legal since his buddy "Mr. Corporate America" Legal Briefed the US Supreme Court 2010, as for the US Supreme Court to have Ruled otherwise would have invalidated the 2008-2009 Elections for his admitted violations prior to and during the 2008-2009 Elections of the McCain Feingold Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act (US Law). In 2011, "Mr. Corporate America" for his admitted violations of US Law was slapped on the wrist with a fine of $200,000.00.

"Mr. Corporate America" is a Democrat with his Major Campaign Contributors and Constituents being:

(List from 2005) Delaware: Freddie Mac, Fanny Mae, Bank of America, Wilmington Trust, First USA / Bank One / JPMorgan Chase, AIG, Citigroup, Deutsche Bank, Barclays plc, GM, Chrysler, Wachovia, ExxonMobil, Chevron, ISDA, and those States with Corporations Incorporated at Delaware.

Over 50% of US publicly-traded corporations and 60% of the Fortune 500 companies are incorporated in Delaware;[1] the state's attractiveness as a corporate haven is largely due to its business-friendly corporation law. Franchise taxes on Delaware corporations supply about one-fifth of its state revenue.[2]

1. Delaware Division of Corporations
2. Delaware Fiscal Notebook - State General Fund Revenues by Category

The list is important because in order to obtain January 2009 Electoral College Votes in time the Billion USD Bailouts (TARP) had to be passed as "Time Sensitive" (no Public Scrutiny) by the November December 2008 Democratic Party Controlled US Congress. The Billions of USDs did NOT pay for the any of the 60-100 Trillion USDs Global Economic Crisis (Caused by the removal of the Glass Steagall Acts). Reference Businessweek Article of the Physical Locations of the Bailout Receipents and the Correlation (posted on tbhe Internet) to the Electoral College Votes. And President Bush got some of that too:

From the Businessweek Article:

8. University Park, Texas
Share population in finance and real estate: 18.83%
Nearest large city: Dallas
Population: 24,582
Median Household Income: $110,976

TReed, this is how I used to write before all the Newsvine Posters b!tched about my posts being too long since they have Attention Deficit Disorder. As I believed that an "Error of Ommission" (leaving out details and all the facts) is a Lie. And contrary to "Newsvine a Place to Get Smarter".

TReed - The reason the Japanese were able to sink so many battleships was because they were lined up 2 to 4 deep, they couldn't move the ships. The US didn't believe the Japanese could or would an attempt an attack on Hawaii.

Nope, I wrote a Detailed US Research Paper about Pearl Harbor while I was at Hawaii for College Military History. I later revised my Research Paper before resubmitting it during Command and General Staff College by adding the documents of the US War Department I needed under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA).

Like I said before they were NOT "Battleships" they were Battle Rams (bow of ship different). The only Battle Ram equipped for anti aircraft was the USS Texas (a training Battle Ram).

David - I agree that the final bills overturning
Glass-Steagall allowed the Wallstreet banks to get setup for the collapse. I just don't agree with some your conclusions. Do you think the new financial regs will work? Myself, I think they are too weak and the government has already shown they are not capable of enforcing the laws in regards to the SEC.

add to post #1.142.

Prior to the Pearl Harbor Attack, the US Army Air Corps had practiced attacks on Pearl Harbor.

As everyone in the Militarises of the World knew about what the British had done to sink the Italian Navy (including "Battleships") using biplanes with torpedoes.

Most of the excuses that attempt to say that Pearl Harbor was a surprise attack were later dismissed during the 1999 US Congressional Hearings (based on the declassified War Department Documents) that exonerated Admiral Kimmel and General Short. And indirectly placed all the blame on President FDR, Ambassador Kennedy, etc. as wanting to get the US into the War At Europe as insisted by Winston Churchill "or England will Fall". The various actions (Acts of War) before US Entry into WWII, selling and shipping of War Materials to England, USN Gunboats shooting at Japanese Destroyers going to and from China, US Army Air Corps involvement with the Flying Tigers, MacArthur already at the Philippines, US does not ship Oil and Coal already paid for by the Japanese ("Let them stinking yellow jap b-stards freeze to death" was the common mentality especially as controlled by William Randolf Hearst's Newspaper Empire and back then the US President could do no wrong), etc. (there is a lot more). Reference US Congressional Hearing (transcripts) of Admiral Kimmel and General Short, US Congressional Hearings (transcripts) pertaining to the Internment of Americans of Japanese Ancestry, Imperial War Museum (ArchivesEngland), Deutsche Museum (Munich Germany), Smithsonian (Achieves), Pearl Harbor Museum (Hawaii), Sworn testimony 1990 of a 1939 US Sailor (encryption/decryption) that worked for Ambassador Kennedy imprisoned for attempting to warn "Isolationist" US Congress of President FDR's intentions to get US into WWII, etc. The same places that lead to the writting of books, "At Dawn We Slept: The Untold Story of Pearl Harbor" by Gordon W. Prange (1982), Day Of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor by Robert B. Stinnett (2001), that unlike the majority of the other books did not use the declassified US War Department Documents.

also BB-35, the USS Texas, was at Pearl Harbor to train others on antiaircraft gunnery as the USS Texas was refitted with anti aircraft batteries (the other Battle Rams were not, they relied on Cruisers, Destroyers, Frigates, etc. as screening ships as Air Power (aircraft) started long after (1911-1917) the Battle Rams were built. And most of the Department of the Navy still believed that the Battleship was the "Projection of US Power". Billy Mitchell became ostracized and amonished (almost disciplinary actions) for his belief that Air Power was the new "Projection of US Power". Pearl Harbor proved Billy Mitchell correct and the USN Admirals completely wrong (these USN Admirals were favored by US Congress (Jobs in their States during the Great Depression 1929-1939)). Some in the US War Department believed Billy Mitchell about Air Power so the US Aircraft Carriers and modern Cruisers were placed on "Extended Sea Training Exercises" and escaped the Pearl Harbor Attacks, that were known targets since the US received thru Ambassador Kennedy the encryption/decryption machine for the Japanese Embassies captured and turned over by the British to the US, 1939. With the US decrypting all of Admiral Yamamoto's War Plans and the "Winds Messages" that would trigger each of Admiral Yamamoto's War Plans in 1940. The 1999 US Congressional Hearings indicated that the US had already intercepted and decrypted the Winds Message indicating the Pearl Harbor Attack at the same time that the Japanese Task Force did ordering the Japanese Task Force to sail from Japan to Hawaii; this was the overwhelming reason to exonerate Admiral Kimmel and General Short purposely left out of being warned, believed that President FDR needed something "Extraordinary to get Isolationist America" into the War at Europe as all other means failed, Flying Tigers, "Remember the sinking of the USN Panai" (USN USS Panay, PR-5) 1937 (newpaper archieves), MacArthur at the Phillipines, etc..

Like I said, TReed, I did the DETAILED RESEARCH about Pearl Harbor including who manufactured the anti aircraft batteries, in what State, the numbers of anti aircraft batteries, when the retrofit was done and where, etc. for the USN BB-35 USS Texas and what the other Battle Rams did not have (the anti aircraft batteries). The fact that it was wrongly assumed that most of the USN ship crews would be off shore at "Religious Worship" and not on board recovering from hangovers from Parties at Honolulu when the Pearl Harbor Attacks occurred. President FDR's sacrifice of a few obsolete 1911-1917 Battle Rams to get the US into the War At Europe and irreversibly out of the Great Depression (same thing 1999 US Congress believed after hearing the testimony of the USN Sailor that worked for Ambassador Kennedy that was imprisoned by the British after Ambassador Kennedy revoked his diplomatic immunity, imprisoned from 1939 until 1990. The messages he encrypted and decrypted between Ambassador Kennedy and President FDR, and the conversations between Ambassador Kennedy and Winston Churchill (after Dunkirk Winston Churchill found out about German Operation Sea Lion. The United States must enter the War or England will fall)

ROY WILSON - Google rules!

TReed - David - I agree that the final bills overturning
Glass-Steagall allowed the Wallstreet banks to get setup for the collapse.

Nope. You fail to understand the Glass Steagall Acts. The Glass Steagall Acts made Illegal the Causes of the 1907 Depression and 1929-1939 Great Depression. From 1907 to 1933 US Congress attempted very harsh Regulation to regulate the Causes, and failed (Regulations harsher than President Obama's Financial Reform), after failing US Congress outright made the Causes Illegal. The Glass Steagall Acts worked from 1933 to 2000.

The Removal of the Glass Steagall Acts did NOT pertain only to the minor players of "Wall Street". The SEC (Security Exchange Commission) cannot do anything external to the US and only really enforce the chump change "Stock Market", we are talking about TRILLIONS.

After serving in the US Military I retired, second career a Teacher until I was recalled to Active Duty, retired again third career Retail sales, again was recalled to Active Duty . I started to do the research, just after the removal of the Glass Steagall Acts. I started to understand the implications. A friend of mine during my third career, had received her inheritence of 1 Million USDs. In writing I made a deal with her, I would "invest" her 1 million and make her 10 million, I would get 10%, if I failed I would pay her back her 1 million. Well, I did not fail and got 1 million, that I used to start up my business (still successful, now a small-medium size business. knock on wood). What I invested her 1 million in were Swaps and Derivatives. This is how I KNOW about Swaps and Derivatives. We are talking about a potential International market of 643 Trillion USDs not the hundreds of Billions (longterm individual gains) of the "Stock Market" and the normal activities of "Wall Street" including the Wall Street Banks. Then I got recalled back to Active Duty, later sent to Afghanistan to disrupt the Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban Government, seize and secure locations for the arrival of US Military Conventional Warfare Forces. Having Millions of USDs does not stop bullets, IEDs, RPGs, etc..

david; your research on Pearl Harbor attack is damn well right on target; almost all scholars today would agree with you, the bank of England was on the verge of collapse, FDR knew it would cause a financial collapse again; they let pear harbor happen, there was a sense that MacArthur would stop the Japanese in the Philippines, he did not have the equipment or manpower, he had been recalled to active duty in April of 1941, in his messages to FDR, he stated it will take him at least 1 year to get ready for the JAPANESE assault, he even used the word Japanese!

David - I stand corrected on Pearl Harbor. Most I was aware of, the specifics from the 1999 Congressional hearings, I was not. I knew that Roosevelt wanted to into the war and was even afraid of being found out then impeached. Now to go to the extent that you commented, I didn't have prove just documented rumors.

I do understand the Glass-Steagall act. It was mainly to separate the commercial and investment banking which they believed caused the Great Depression. From working in the banking industry for while when the government lighten the rules and allowed commercial banks to get back into securities, I still believe that Glass-Steagall was correct. I also understand the reasoning to move away from Glass-Steagall to allow more of the industry to be involved in the global markets. I will admit that I don't know that much about default swaps and derivatives, just the basics. I am just one believes that regulation needs to be enforced or strengthened. IMO and I could easily be corrected, derivatives are only good when the economy is good.

I also just want to say thank you for you commitment of serving in the military. I may noy agree with your conclusions on some things and I could be completely wrong. But I do find your comments very interesting and would like to read up on some of what you have said.

Steal Arab Oil

David - I did some follow up reading on what Stinnett had found, very interesting. Were they aware that the Japanese modified the torpedoes for shallow water attack? I also noticed in the search that there were comparisons made to the 9/11 attacks, are you aware of any similarities? I'm not one to give much notice to conspiracy theories, but I do like to hear cold hard facts. Again, Thanks.

Sanity,

Can you tell me how the old, disabled and disadvantaged will benefit from a bankrupt government that put us into a depression?

They could have just as easily cut military spending and closed down military bases across the world. How about restoring some of the revenue that has been lost by tax cuts? It's amazing that the only program that talks about getting cut is our social safety net. I'd say if politicians really wanted to go all out they'd get rid of EIC which I would agree with. No one should be getting a larger return than what they payed in taxes. But then that would take real political guts.

Sanity, you should take some advise from your own name... stop listening to the loud mouths and do some reading!

How about restoring some of the revenue that has been lost by tax cuts?

The sustainable and ethical way to increase revenue to the federal government is to promote a climate where jobs will be created. Once we have more people working and making more money the revenue will come.

We now have over 44 million Americans living below the poverty line. Now is NOT the time to cut vital social services.

Now is the time to raise taxes on the wealthy and corporations and cut defense!

marlen101917

We now have over 44 million Americans living below the poverty line. Now is NOT the time to cut vital social services.

Now is the time to raise taxes on the wealthy and corporations and cut defense!

You are so misguided. Now is the time to put people back to work. Raising taxes will have the opposite effect.

Keep pointing the finger marlen!

I love that you leave out that in the mid 90's the poverty rate was about the same as it was today... But i guess those Clinton era tax rates fixed everything right?

Why do you always ignore the facts!

GOP apologists - where are the jobs? Bush Tax Cuts in effect now for 10 years and were extended with the continued promise of enticing the wonderful wealth creators to hire - so - where are the jobs?

Sanity, did you miss the 8 million jobs created before 2006? Even after 9-11, even after the dot com bubble...

Truth = lower taxes have not produced more jobs.

@Chip D-2844144 No net job growth under GWB. Unemployment was 4.2% when he took office and was 7.6% his last miserable month in the White Houes. Not to mention he looted the treasury on his way out - paying off his Treasury Secretarie's banker buddies to the tune of $1 trillion dollars.

But sanity, you said the jobs are created by congress not the POTUS... why blame Bush, when according to YOU it was Pelosi's job to creat jobs?

keep flipping!

PS Tarp will be paid back 100% with a $25 BIllion profit...

@Chip D-2844144 You're spinning so fast - are you Sufi? Must be a cut and paste post on your part as I've not mentioned congress.

Sorry it was from the wrong thread...

But if you want to blame Bush for the lack of jobs created, then you should be CONSISTANT and Blame Obama for the lack of jobs!

Clinton created 11 million jobs, bush created 1 million. What do you, right wing morons, not understand?

the country has always done better under democrat rules, this of course if you right wingers let them govern.

Your uncontrolled capitalism has worked so well, hasn't it?

America is in a huge mess because of tax cuts to the rich and because of your insane military machine!

No democracy can fonction well if the rich do not pay taxes!!

Ahhh i love those ignorant factless rants...

sanity, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there was a net job growth during Bush's terms. It wasn't big, but it was positive and not negative.

Chip,

See, when you call Sanity on his inconsistency, he clams up. Typical libbie.

A Thought From a Different Perspective:

A system of checks and balances is always needed to keep people on the right path because people throughout history have proven this fact beyond a shadow of a doubt. It's been shown again and again that if people aren't held accountable and there isn't any balance to their actions they will always increasingly make more and more selfish decisions. Our current system works on checks and balances. This being said it is understood there is a need for accountability so all parties remain corruption free and no one is left out in the cold or taken advantage of. Seeing the current need for revenue and taxes there is an obvious need for everyone to work together to create the enviroment of prosperity we all want and need. Ill offer up a secondary solution to messing with these programs that could help across many gamuts as well as increase revenue, productivity, and job growth. One that also has a set of checks and balances.

The government pays millions to states to help support the homeless, poor, and non highly skilled middle class in oreder to promote growth. Corporations and buisinesses have long sent jobs overseas and hurt the American working class devastatingly which in turn feeds poverty. How about give tax credits to companies/ buisinesses that employ Americans here and charge higher taxes to those that outsource instead of charging higher taxes on individuals? Combined with this, have hotels or “housing facilities” set up at the sites of major factories, plants where goods are made and processed, pretty much anywhere corporations that actually create products are. These facilities will be bought and paid for by the companies/ buisinesses on which land they stand, and be used for those specific companies. The land on which they are built will be given, tax free, to these corporations and buisinesses by the government with the express knowledge that they must obey all of the safe housing codes and conform to being checked by government workers monthly to confirm their habitability. Also, only the corporations and buisinesses that chose this will be allowed to have any subsidies or lobbyists promoting their agendas in Washington. These housing facilities will require a staff of the following workers: medical doctors, a psychiatric center, drug and alcohol abuse councilors, family help councilors, teachers (both regular and special needs), maintenance crews, and food crews. The members of these professions may be occupants of the facility as well but must pay to live there if they are, no free rides for people who don't need the assistance. Residence and admittance requires that all participants are American born and are drug free for a minimum of one month before entry and all occupants must pass random drug screenings if there is a history of abuse. For the first six months it is rent free, as is food, for homeless people and an adjusted rate for low income households. During this period those people will undergo job screenings to see what skills they currently have, job training to perfect the skills necessary for the position the corporation in question needs them for, and a health screening to make sure they are healthy enough to handle the work. All middle class participants will be required to undergo a job screening to see where they best fit and any and all previous education will be factored and they will be eligible to be teachers in their fields which will hold more of a managorial position in these companies and obviously have a higher paygrade. During the initial six month period unskilled workers would be permitted to work unskilled labor jobs at the corporation such as call answering services, manufacturing of simple parts, general maintenance jobs, and so on as the corporations need. The corporations will be required to pay 2/3(number is static) federal minimum wage to all these workers with the other 1/3(again static used for representation) supplemented from the current welfare programs which will equal no less then current federal minimum wage. After the 6 month period the inhabitants of these housing facilities, that are low income, will be required to pay, at minimum, the going rate that project 8 housing laws currently state in order to live in the housing facility. Should they chose to stay at the facility they will be given the opportunity to train for ever more skilled positions that these companies might have a need for by professionals in the field of study they desire, and that these workers are applicable for currently, with on site and in classroom training. As their skills increase and progress so does the cost of living at the housing facility up to the average cost of living for that demographical area for a space equal to the size they live in. Along with this their pay grade has the ability to increase with their skill level eventually pulling them off the supplemented cooperative rate to the rate that is the national and demographical average for the job title they are listed under(these listings are set by a seperate panel that is an unrelated third party). People that have longer residency are required to mentor those just coming in for a minimum of one weekend a month. Residency is limited to 5 years after which all senior residents are required to move to allow space for new comers. A relocation service will be offered at a cost if necessary to help find new residency. Workers will be eligible to unionize but not for the purpose of increasing wages for unskilled labor positions(unskilled labor is defined by a separate entity that has no affiliation to the companies issuing these positions as available).

Well that's the start of the idea. How will all this wonder be paid for? Basically a tax shuffle involving no new taxes. To start, companies currently pay their overseas workers a salary, even if only a fraction of what American workers make. By doing business overseas they need to ship their products across the oceans to get them here. By, bringing the jobs here they take out the costs of doing business elsewhere (facility costs and maintenance, workers pay) and remove the prices being paid to ship their products here(shipping and export costs, energy costs). These costs are then redirected by garnishing the 2/3 wage I described earlier and supplying a safe living environment for their workers, but actually they end up saving money in the long run(ask and I will explain this, but essentially the costs of oveseas buisiness is anticipated to grow exponetially with the cost of energy ie fuel). The housing facilities will pretty much pay for themselves because people will still be required to pay to live there even if not right away. Also, billions are spent every year to support welfare and similar programs. These offices could also work with these places and set a new requirement for welfare... No more free hand outs... You want it you'll have to work for it if you have the ability to do so. This will save millions of tax dollars that can be spent elsewhere and even for this program because this program and the people that use it will now have checks and balances against them as well and it will become far less easy to abuse the system. The causes and effects of such a program are incredible. Imagine a whole new slew of consumers finally with the money to buy the products that these corporations are slinging and the desire to support the companies that gave them this new ability by offering them a chance at the American dream. Imagine a whole new type of community with a brand new spirit. Even corporations and buisinesses could no longer be considered half as evil because they will be showing compassion and still be able to line their pockets because of increased production and a new larger consumer base.

Sure this isn't a complete idea and still needs all the checks and balances secured so corruption is less possible(it'll never be gone completely unfortunately), but it is an idea and it does point us back in the right direction. Will there always be poverty and joblessness? Hey not everyone can get a clue. But a plan like this will certainly diminish the likelihood of it while resetting the way buisiness is done. Note: This doesn't alter the benifits of a college degree but actually gives it much more worth in the sense that these corperations and buisinesses will value the expertise that much more in the training of lower skilled workers and the necessity for highly skilled individuals in each gamut of buisiness. Also, it isn't mandatory that this program be used to get any job, but is a secondary option to college or technical schools and offers a new way to work up through the work force which is currently dependent on gaining a degree from an accreditted school even if not dependent on what field of study that degree is in(companies and buisinesses don't really care what you went to school for mostly, but just that you did and were able to complete it and most do on site training for tasks anyway so really what is the benifit of an applied sciences degree to get say an assembly job at ford motors aside from the knowledge that you probably have a basic understanding and are smart enough to figure it out). Instead those, with degrees and no experience will be offered slightly higher up salaries and job titles than those working up through the program initially, but would level off as experience and expertise did, and when both groups had equal education and experience they would no longer be seperate but equal in advancement opportunity. The worth of each employee is already judged by their superiors according to work ethic, productability, and experience and that would not change.

The major benifits have already been explained. This is an idea reminicent of how things were done for centuries before the rise of academic institutions and there link to the professional world and can be seen at late as the middle to later parts of the 20th century when it was possible to work your way up from the mail room to become something more. It changes the way things work and puts more stress back on corperations and buisinesses to train individuals to perform the tasks needed which they have highly forgotton about because its more cost effective to have workers pay the entire load of eduacation without offering any assistance(this is not true for all but is a generalized view or corperate and buisiness methods averagely). This plan can work and can have the benifit of having a stronger society with many more highly talented people that have the skills to succeed in a world market and the productivity to be able to compete anywhere in the world. It is an idea but it can be the beginning of something better. Just a thought from a different perspective.

SomeSanity: "Where will they find the cuts? Why on the back of the old, disabled and disadvantaged of course."

Where will they find more money to take? From the seed corn of the productive class? Gotta love that free government cheese, huh.

@Edward-1075991 Sorry - took some time out to be productive - just noticed you had one of my posts collapsed - The @ symbol does not indicate a quote but rather an indication to whom the post is directed toward. I would use quotation marks - they look like this by the way "" - if I were quoting you verbatim. You said there would be a big market rally if only Republicans could get even more of their way. But the statistics expose you as a complete and total nincompoop.

@norm903 Class warfare - typical of Republicans - next you'll play the race card. I'll set my watch for a countdown.

Here is a suggestion for big business:

create jobs and keep the employees (in this country) = get a tax break

or

no jobs = no tax breaks..and you got to pay all tax savings you benefited from for the years you got tax breaks when you said you were gonna create jobs

and everyone who paid themselves bonuses from bailout money has to return it...and cut their pay back to real wages

of course this is a fantasy but what the heck..it doesnt hurt to dream

@Bookem' Danno Be that as it may the 1 million jobs are negligible considering what the labor statistics were reporting months before any of Obama's policies could possibly take effect. It's being generous not to include the results of Bush style Republicanism in the first 2 quarters at least of 2009.

HAHAHA, Sanity you are funny! You obviously don't have any mirrors around your house do you?

Elaine, but those would be tax cuts.... and Obama can't give out more tax cuts!

Some Sanity: What race card are you referring to? As an EMPLOYER I've hired some of everyone, white, black, old, young, men and women- anyone I think can do the job, help our customers, and help make me money. That said, it takes capital to expand and hire. How many people do you employ?

There is a difference between safety net and relinquishing responsibility for one's life to the government. You do know that, don't you?

@norm903 You're a bigger person than I am - I won't knowingly employ a Republican. Let them figure out you need some boots before you can pull yourself up by their straps.

Ha ha, touche'. :-)

Jim in Houston-1509351..if you would please explain to me just how cutting taxes more for the wealthy will benefit the people that have already lost jobs..I do not believe I have seen one politican actually pushing for jobs..especially manufacturing jobs , which we have lost a ton of and along with that lost of manufacturing we lost over 2 million jobs and still counting..not one politican is pushing in those lines, not one..cutting the social net is the only thing they seem concerned with..while cutting taxes for the wealthy more. The tax cuts the average citizen gets amounts to very little compared to what the wealthy write off yearly..and that wealthy includes the " 550 honest" politicans we have elected . So just who are trhese politicans working for...they do not need jobs..so that is of little concern and it shows..the trade deals they pushed so hard on have cost the jobs we have lost. Yet all the jobs they claimed we would get from these dealsa NEVER showed up.

I do believe it is from the left that the race card is played 90% of the time. BTW, and I'm just spitballing, but what happens to all of those that are employed at overseas bases? Our economy cannot get jobs for the hundreds of thousands that would be put out because of closing overseas bases.

And the tax rates are just fine. 35% of all earned income is alot. They just need to close up a few of those loopholes that allow them to get their money back.

Hey GE, care to give that fat check back to us?

Jim: No one is talking about cutting taxes, the conversation is centered on not raising them. Big difference.

paying off his Treasury Secretarie's banker buddies to the tune of $1 trillion dollars.

Bush was 1/3 of the gov't. Pelosi and Reid handed him the bill to sign with the verbage allowing the trillion dollars. Why is this so difficult for liberals to understand?

Ron Paul said he would do it by ending all Foreign wars and gradually closing the over 700 military bases in over 130 countries. That seems like a good place to cut.

paul.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1875:house-members-ramp-up-efforts-to-scale-back-military-commitments-and-cut-spending&catid=63:2011-press-releases

Let's hope he can influence some of his GOP colleagues to come around to his way of thinking!

Allen, you are forgetting something. The senate was controlled by the Republicans, not the Democrats. Yes, Reid was the majority leader, but if you count the actual senators it was 50 Democrats, 49 Republicans, Joe Lieberman (essentially a republican), and Dick Cheny as the tie breaker.

Isn't it interesting that Bush still gets blame for the collapse in 2007-2008 when Democrats had control over two Houses of congress and yet Obama gets no blame for what is going on now since the GOP controls one House? Now everything is the republican's fault.In fact, the GOP cot blamed as the "Party of NO" even when they only had 41 in the Senate and the DSems had a huge majority in the House. Liberals really are funny if you can find stupidity and lies funny.

@Allen-968499 Gee - Who appointed the Sec. of Treasury Allen? Who came to the leaders in congress and told them under no uncertain terms that if they didn't sign off on TARP the entire country would collapse? What was the GOP presidential candidates position on that? Just how much trust is anyone in a position of authority supposed to hold onto in order to avoid allowing Presidential cabinet member from lying and looting the public coffers? Classic for Republicans who love to go on and on about personal responsibility to constantly shift blame the moment they are caught lying, stealing or simply being incompetent. You're doin' fine Brownie(Allen).

@Watermoon By your logic it is evidence of just how weak and ineffectual Republicans are at governing as they had control over the house 1994 to 2006 and senate form 1994 to 2008. You would think it might be a little more difficult to upset their solid state strategy to keep the economy humming along. Maybe they should read the story of the 3 little pigs again if it is that easy to blow their house down.

Nothing will be an easy choice. Lets take a practical look at things here. If you are ready to retire, you have had your entire life to think and plan for it. If you rely on social security to live on. You were not planning in the first place.

It's time for Americans to wake up and quit relying on social programs period.

@Bobby Jones Bia Pretending every citizen has the same set of circumstances leading up to the age where one can't provide for oneself is like turning the channel when the late night "save the children charity" ads come on. SS is not a for profit program. It's there because any modern civilization worth it's salt doesn't simply toss people aside when they can't provide for themselves.

All the falsehoods and myths being perpetuated by the right-wing on this commenter’s section about what President Reagan did or didn’t do, requires a another look at factual aspects of his political history that Republican Tea Party conservatives would want everyone to forget.

10 Things Conservatives Don’t Want You To Know About Ronald Reagan

1. Reagan was a serial tax raiser. As governor of California, Reagan “signed into law the largest tax increase in the history of any state up till then.” Meanwhile, state spending nearly doubled. As president, Reagan “raised taxes in seven of his eight years in office,” including four times in just two years. As former GOP Senator Alan Simpson, who called Reagan “a dear friend,” told NPR, “Ronald Reagan raised taxes 11 times in his administration — I was there.” “Reagan was never afraid to raise taxes,” said historian Douglas Brinkley, who edited Reagan’s memoir. Reagan the anti-tax zealot is “false mythology,” Brinkley said.

2. Reagan nearly tripled the federal budget deficit. During the Reagan years, the debt increased to nearly $3 trillion, “roughly three times as much as the first 80 years of the century had done altogether.” Reagan enacted a major tax cut his first year in office and government revenue dropped off precipitously. Despite the conservative myth that tax cuts somehow increase revenue, the government went deeper into debt and Reagan had to raise taxes just a year after he enacted his tax cut. Despite ten more tax hikes on everything from gasoline to corporate income, Reagan was never able to get the deficit under control.

3. Unemployment soared after Reagan’s 1981 tax cuts. Unemployment jumped to 10.8 percent after Reagan enacted his much-touted tax cut, and it took years for the rate to get back down to its previous level. Meanwhile, income inequality exploded. Despite the myth that Reagan presided over an era of unmatched economic boom for all Americans, Reagan disproportionately taxed the poor and middle class, but the economic growth of the 1980′s did little help them. “Since 1980, median household income has risen only 30 percent, adjusted for inflation, while average incomes at the top have tripled or quadrupled,” the New York Times’ David Leonhardt noted.

4. Reagan grew the size of the federal government tremendously. Reagan promised “to move boldly, decisively, and quickly to control the runaway growth of federal spending,” but federal spending “ballooned” under Reagan. He bailed out Social Security in 1983 after attempting to privatize it, and set up a progressive taxation system to keep it funded into the future. He promised to cut government agencies like the Department of Energy and Education but ended up adding one of the largest — the Department of Veterans’ Affairs, which today has a budget of nearly $90 billion and close to 300,000 employees. He also hiked defense spending by over $100 billion a year to a level not seen since the height of the Vietnam war.

5. Reagan did little to fight a woman’s right to choose. As governor of California in 1967, Reagan signed a bill to liberalize the state’s abortion laws that “resulted in more than a million abortions.” When Reagan ran for president, he advocated a constitutional amendment that would have prohibited all abortions except when necessary to save the life of the mother, but once in office, he “never seriously pursued” curbing choice.

6. Reagan was a “bellicose peacenik.” He wrote in his memoirs that “[m]y dream…became a world free of nuclear weapons.” “This vision stemmed from the president’s belief that the biblical account of Armageddon prophesied nuclear war — and that apocalypse could be averted if everyone, especially the Soviets, eliminated nuclear weapons,” the Washington Monthly noted. And Reagan’s military buildup was meant to crush the Soviet Union, but “also to put the United States in a stronger position from which to establish effective arms control” for the entire world — a vision acted out by Reagan’s vice president, George H.W. Bush, when he became president.

7. Reagan gave amnesty to 3 million undocumented immigrants. Reagan signed into law a bill that made any immigrant who had entered the country before 1982 eligible for amnesty. The bill was sold as a crackdown, but its tough sanctions on employers who hired undocumented immigrants were removed before final passage. The bill helped 3 million people and millions more family members gain American residency. It has since become a source of major embarrassment for conservatives.

8. Reagan illegally funneled weapons to Iran. Reagan and other senior U.S. officials secretly sold arms to officials in Iran, which was subject to a an arms embargo at the time, in exchange for American hostages. Some funds from the illegal arms sales also went to fund anti-Communist rebels in Nicaragua — something Congress had already prohibited the administration from doing. When the deals went public, the Iran-Contra Affair, as it came to be know, was an enormous political scandal that forced several senior administration officials to resign.

9. Reagan vetoed a comprehensive anti-Apartheid act. which placed sanctions on South Africa and cut off all American trade with the country. Reagan’s veto was overridden by the Republican-controlled Senate. Reagan responded by saying “I deeply regret that Congress has seen fit to override my veto,” saying that the law “will not solve the serious problems that plague that country.”

10. Reagan helped create the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. Reagan fought a proxy war with the Soviet Union by training, arming, equipping, and funding Islamist mujahidin fighters in Afghanistan. Reagan funneled billions of dollars, along with top-secret intelligence and sophisticated weaponry to these fighters through the Pakistani intelligence service. The Talbian and Osama Bin Laden — a prominent mujahidin commander — emerged from these mujahidin groups Reagan helped create, and U.S. policy towards Pakistan remains strained because of the intelligence services’ close relations to these fighters. In fact, Reagan’s decision to continue the proxy war after the Soviets were willing to retreat played a direct role in Bin Laden’s ascendancy.

Conservatives seem to be in such denial about the less flattering aspects of Reagan; it sometimes appears as if they genuinely don’t know the truth of his legacy.

When liberal activist Mike Stark challenged hate radio host Rush Limbaugh on why Reagan remains a conservative hero despite raising taxes so many times, Limbaugh flew into a tirade and demanded, “Where did you get this silly notion that Reagan raised taxes?”

thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/02/05/142288/reagan-centennial/

It isn't 35% of earned income.

The USA has the lowest tax to GDP of any developed nation. Ours is below Turkey!

It's a fake crisis.

Ellen, Is that at the federal level or does that also include state and local taxes on top of the federal taxes. Does this your statement include all taxes and government fees?

Ellen Hunt, if that were true than the real fact that we as a nation spend more per capita on govt than any other nation in the world...

those dumb ass can start by getting rid of the war on drugs....we spend 35 billion dollars on pot each year in AMERICA.

Your spot on Ben, spot on. Unless your a captain of industry or well off, your going to be screwed, and this guy can't figure it out. He thinks that if he says the right things and agree with the right things and in some instances are the right color or religion, he will be on the "winning side" of this no matter how it turns out. What he hasn't figured out is that the politicians and the rich and the elite have a constituance, it's each other. People like him are useful idiots, used until their usefulness is not needed anymore. And then he becomes THOSE people.

*Reaganomics* didn't work for Messiah Reagan. It didn't work for Bush the Elder. It didn't work for Bush the Younger. Why does anyone think it will work if Obama gives it a try?

rradiko = full of Baloney.

rradiko - 8. Reagan illegally funneled weapons to Iran.

Since when does the US Manufacture AK-47s, AKMs, RPGs, etc.. The weapons that were sent to Iran were to the "Rebels" to overthrow the Fundamentalist Islamic Iranian Government.

rradiko - 10. Reagan helped create the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden.

When the USSR 40th Army Occupation was occuring the USSR did not care which Afghans they were killing (Pro USSR or Pro US did not matter) as USSR Total Conventional War.

a. Millions of Pro USSR Afghans fled Afghanistan to Fundamentalist Islamic Iran (supported by USSR).

b. As insisted by Senator Charles Wilson Democrat Texas, US Military Training Teams from Germany were deployed to Pakistan/Afghanistan to train the 1980s Pro US Afghan Refugees, that became the 1980s Pro US Afghan Muhajeen.

c. After the 1980s Pro US Afghan Muhajeen defeated the USSR 40th Army Occupation the US Cut and Ran (abandoning our US Allies with a devastaged Nation, instead of rebuilding Afghanistan back to the "Little America" of the 1960s-1970s that Afghanistan was before the USSR Occupation).

d. The Pro USSR Afghans return from Fundamentalist Islamic Iran and become the 1990s Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban. Since most of the US Ally 1980s Pro US Afghan Muhajeen were killed during the USSR 40th Army Occcupation, expended most of their ammunition, wore out their weapons, no longer US Funded, etc. it was easy for the 1990s Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban to massacre the 1980s Pro US Afghan Muhajeen (and their families, relatives, in laws, etc.) in the Afghan Civil War.

I know firsthand what happened because we were part of the US Military Training Teams (Pakistan/Afghanistan and US Ally Iraq during the Iran Iraq Wars). It is also common practice for us to take pictures of everyone that we train so that they can be used as possible future assets by the President's Executive Intelligence Agency.

Osama Bin Laden was still at Saudi Arabia living with his Oil Rich Relatives, then started to plan the 1993 First World Trade Center Bombings. He was never at Afghanistan during the USSR 40th Army Occupation (the US mentality that they all look the same).

rradiko - Your post indicates that you were not even alive then. Nice Wikipedia copy and paste as Demoncrap Propaganda Crapola. So your numbers 8 and 10 I was directly involved with and you have NOT knowledge nor did you do the research. Others with firsthand knowledge will tear the rest of your uninformed post to pieces with researched facts.

To those of you who insist on writing 1000 word comments:

If I want to read a book, I'll go to Borders, or Amazon.

Edward-1075991 To those of you who insist on writing 1000 word comments: If I want to read a book, I'll go to Borders, or Amazon.

Take your pills to stop your Attention Deficit Disorder.

You can just leave Newsvine "A Place to Get Smarter" as no one is forcing you to "Get Smarter" by reading the 1000 word comments.

There are some Newsvine Posters that do want to "Get Smarter" so you can remain uninformed uneducated with emotive opinions if you want but do not pull a Hitler by denying eveyone else the opportunity to "Get Smarter".

The sustainable and ethical way to increase revenue to the federal government is to promote a climate where jobs will be created. Once we have more people working and making more money the revenue will come.

Jim in Houston-1509351,

You are 100% correct. I am astonished at how many people don't understand that it's the business sector that creates the jobs, not the govt. If the govt. overtaxes, it hamstrings the big businesses that could pull us out of this recession.

Even though there is obviously a limit as to how much taxes can be cut, cutting them when they have been too high actually stimulates the economy which generates more revenue for the govt. This apparent paradox has occured with many major tax cuts in the past. John F. Kennedy and Ronald Reagan both understood why this happens.

The best way to get this economy operating again is to can the progressive tax system (which is nothing more than an envy motivated sytem), and move to a low uniform tax rate, whether on the taxable portion of income after exemptions and deductions, or on retail sales as proposed by the Fair Tax movement. Just this one move would boost the economy and revenues to such a high level, that people would ask why we didn't do it sooner.

The next move would be to start cutting back on currency production until it finally hits a one-for-one replacement rate with old currency. It would be far better to return to a precious metal backed sytem, but right now there isn't enough PM in the whole world to match the U.S. currency in circulation, thanks to the addiction to fiat currency.

The final move is to begin slowly phasing out social programs as the economy improves. This is something that would take a very long time, because too many people are currently dependent on these programs, and we can't just yank the rug out from under them.

There are probably far more people who are dependent on these social programs than what there would have been if we had not had the present Federal Govt. tax and currency systems. These systems have actually created the environment in which the economy can only go downhill in the long-term. Our Federal Govt. has actually caused much of the need for its handouts.

However, folks......all of this might be academic now!! Our govt.'s borrowing is in a catch 22! Keep the debt ceiling where it is without making budget cuts, and the worldwide financial markets could go into a tailspin, because the govt. will have to default on some debt that has presently come due. Raise the debt ceiling and keep borrowing to handle the currently demanded pay-offs, and we will keep driving faster and faster until we drive right off the cliff!! We have to have the budget cuts!! Hurt a little now, or be in hopeless agony later!!

Do you think with ALL this Outsourcing, That it could be the Reason for SOOO MUCH IDENTITY THEFT? After all, most ID Theft comes from Foreign Soil. Albeit Hackers have some of the Blame, But most of it is Overseas.

Steve, there a couple issues with reducing taxes on the rich corporations. First, taxes are already low for them. Second, ever since Bush Senior signed NAFTA, they have been making more money by creating those jobs in other countries. If we want to promote job growth, we have to first eliminate the root of the problem that allowed our jobs a free ticket to sweat shop production conditions: Free Trade Agreements. That's why many are still unemployed, but corporations continue to post high profits.

You could end all the wars, cut the DOD to $0 and go back to the Clinton tax rates for the rich...

And you'd still have $1trillion plus deficits for decades... not to mention over 5 milllion more people without jobs!

I wish people would think before they type!

I agree. It's time to quit defending the rest of the world at the expense of our weakest citizens.

Chip: We've got to start somewhere....each time someone brings up the "it is such a small amount to save"....or "we will still have $$$ for deficits"....I wish they'd think before they type. No one thing is going to rid us of the entire deficit....you realize that don't you????? We need to cut back in several areas.....you realize that don't you?????

Dragon,

Why dont we start with Obamas own debt commission that he has ignored.

Vut out the redundancy in the bloated Federal Gvmnt. Overlapping agencies that do the EXACT same thing. Buildings that we have to pay to maintain, that we havent used for years..

The places to cut ARE there, the problem is they are not going to do it.

Dragon, I'm not denying that we need to cut the DOD, but not gut it...

The DOD is just as important to this nation as is SS, medicare and Medicaid... but i would bet my house you don't want those 3 gutted do you?

Chip: Re-read my post...I neve said "gut it"....I said remove the fraud, the waste....never said "gut it". There is alot of fraud and waste in SS, medicare and medicaid...and it should be removed too....why would you think I wouldn't want that?

Jermey: Agree about the federal government, and many more agencies....there is alot of redundancy, fraud and waste.

Bottom line: Everything should be looked at....including increasing taxes...and getting rid of tax cuts and loopholes.

Sorry, i miss read the first post.

We need to cut everything... The crazy thing is the GAO came out with a report that we could cut over $100B a year in duplicated services... and Obama laughed at it!

We should end all deducations, treat all income the same and lower all the tax rates! This would increase revenue AND gut the IRS... saving almost $10 B a year!

Chip: The GAO has come out with that report saying the same thing for many years....no president has tried to remove the waste and fraud...in fact more agencies have been created over the years! I do not think we should end all deductions but do believe a flat tax with no loopholes would be something to look at.

Chip D - The problem is that not all income is the same nor should it be treated as such. One simple example is taking 10% flat tax from a person making 20,000 will have a much greater affect on that persons living standard that taking 10% away from somone making $1 million. Someone who makes their living through wages is different than someone whose income comes from stock dividends and interest. Again not all income is the same.

End all deducations! They are the greatest source of racial and financial descrimination left in the world!

A flat tax won't pass withthe lefties... they NEED the rich to pay more in order to sleep at night! Also we need a 2% national sales tax to go 100% to paying down the debt!

Laurie, it's because we treat income differently Warren Buffet only pays 15% in taxes... not because of his deducations!

If all income was treated the same that would change!

So, if we have a National sales tax, on top of our state sales tax, on top of our federal and state income taxes, on top of our medicare/medicade/social security taxes, and lets not forget the proposed cap and trade tax.

Why work??

If you believe that the power to tax is, indeed, the power to destroy, why keep playing these games. Just give me all the entitlements in the universe and I'll quit working tomorrow, and go fishing. What? Me worry??

Edward, under my plan, the incoem tax would be lowered on the middle class. The 2% sales tax would ONLY go to pay down the debt.

Listen, I'm 29 and I will have to pay for all the debt created by the past 2 generations... we ALL need to pay a small tax to pay for the debts... otherwise when my generation is 50 we will gladly cut all the support for the older generations before we screw our children!

How about making these big corporations charge production companies (like Boeing for planes) the real price of an item to the DOD, instead of a price that is 5 times what the item should cost...that would cut the military wasteful spending. These big corporations have been screwing us tax payers for years by drastically overcharging for military parts and equipment by doing this. And 86 or recycle the old equipment instead of replacing it every year...try cleaning out the cupboards before refilling them like the rest of us have been doing.

Elaine, You have to understand that the majority of what the DOD request, like those tanker plans, are YEARS ahead of what the private sector needs.

The DOD pays extras because they have to create the product first.

It's very much like the first plasma TV's. A 42" was over $10K, now it's around $500. The govt pays more because they are the first to have them...

Also, we've been using B-2's for over 50 years...

One simple example is taking 10% flat tax from a person making 20,000 will have a much greater affect on that persons living standard that taking 10% away from somone making $1 million.

Laurie, as it stands now, that person making $1 million is hiring "creative" accountants who are using loopholes in the tax code to get out of paying their taxes. (ie Immelt & G.E.) The person who is making $20,000 is not only not paying taxes, but is getting a supplement check from those who do pay taxes. Us middle class workers who don't qualify for a supplement check and can't afford those accountants are the ones who are actually contributing to the tax revenues.

Make it so corporations and wealthy individuals can't avoid paying their fair share, stop giving checks to the poor for merely breathing by implementation of a Flat Tax. We are not helping the poor, they need to help themselves. Why would they want to better their life if the taxpayers are paying their way. I personally know a couple of people that refuse to improve their skills because they are getting a check in the mail. It is so easy for them to just sit back and let others support them. Let them work on their job skills, better their education (through govt. assisted educational programs) so they can improve the quality of their lives. Let them be responsible for themselves.

As far as SS, Medicare and such. You have two options. 1. Do nothing and let them default in a decade -or- 2. Fix them so they can survive for future generations. Demographics, poor financial management on the part of the govt. (over many different administrations) & expected longer lifespans are the reason they are insolvent.

To fix this debt problem it will take more than a few modest cuts. $4T over 10 yrs. will not solve the problem when you have a $1T + budget/ yr. (and growing). It is going to take sacrifice from everyone, the rich, the poor, and the elderly.

Asking the poor, the POOR, to sacrafice more??? WTF is this cleptrap!? Did you not understand the difference between being taxed for 20k and taxed for 1mil? If you can afford to pay more, for the stability of the country, which is going to benefit the corporations now and in the future, why are there those so against that? Those that get money back get it so that they can live. Can you survive by yourself on 18k (net)? I don't think that are trailor parks that are willing to give you a lease and not everyone can live with their parents. Why don't any of you think outside the box and through the horse blinders? McCain said something about isolationism... it seems to be true when arguing a point, that one will isolate a specific issue, debate it, but not include specific or non specific caveats... such as being able to live on 20k with a flat tax compared to someone making a million, and being taxed 10%. Isolationism, indeed.

LOL@ Chip -

B-2 has been in production since 1987. The first plane was rolled out in 1988 and although the actual concept of a flying wing has been around since the late 40s, the first operational plane was delivered in 1993.

Where in gods name did you get 50 years from? Space?

LOL @ KingJust -

If you live within your means, people will ALWAYS find a way to survive. If you dont spend yourself silly with credit cards trying to be a "baller", then $18k would be pretty easy to live on. Besides, the only way you will earn $18k for your entire life is if you have no ambition or no desire to move up.

These people that make millions, they had the ambition to move up in the world because they didnt like where they were at. Granted, some are handed a fortune.

DOD...DOD....DOD....there is so much waste there

Defense spending is only a tiny % of the annual budget. $168 billion in the 2010 budget. That's a fraction of what Congress pushed through for bailout $$. Yes, there is waste, but it's not as bad as some media outlets make it out to be. Unchecked handouts and foreign aid to countries that hate us are WAY higher and neither generate jobs. Defense spending not only generates tens of thousands of jobs, it's constitutionally required.

Asking the poor, the POOR, to sacrafice more??? WTF is this cleptrap!? Did you not understand the difference between being taxed for 20k and taxed for 1mil?

King, Yes, I do understand. There were several years that I would have been considered "poor." I still paid income tax. You know what? I worked hard to make sure to better my life.

Can you survive by yourself on 18k (net)?

Actually, at one point I did earn $18k (net). I had to live with roomates until I EARNED enough to have my own place. And, at the time I payed a portion of that income to tax. Maybe those people you speak for who earn 20k should have to do what I had to do.....have roomates, share a place. Being an American does not mean you are entitled to your own apartment & large screen HDTV.....or your own HOME for that matter. (I am pretty sure that that kind of thinking contributed to the mess were are now in.)

Life is what YOU make of it. Don't depend on others to get the things you want out of it.

Toxic, you hit the nail on the head:

Being an American does not mean you are entitled to...

That is one of the biggest problems in American culture. I always wonder if the economy is so horrible, why is the Apple store so packed with people all the time?

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20." Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?' They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!"

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Anyone here have a problem with that?

Norm, the problem with that beer fairy tale is that it is not really what is happening in real life.

In real life, the tenth guy says he's drinking light beer so he's only going to pay $15 even though it costs the same. The first four guys say they don't have money for the bus, so the others pitch in and they end up getting $1. While the other 5 are stuck with a much higher bill paying for the rich guy and the poor guys.

Once again the 92 % of US Citizens that never served in the US Military talking smack about what they have no knowledge of.

See post #1.131. About US Defense Budget Cuts.

And to the even more uninformed about US Taxes on US Businesses:

1. Most Business Owners know that 70% of Profits pays for Employee Payroll and Benefits.

2. US Taxes on Businesses is 35%, not including State Taxes and State Business Licenses (or some local licenses). This does not include that Utilities, Rent or Lease, Business Equipment, Business Insurance, Transportation, etc..

The new tax havens
American companies are finding new overseas tax havens to legally protect some of their profits from the U.S. tax rate of 35 percent, among the highest in the world. Lesley Stahl reports.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/25/60minutes/main20046867.shtml?tag=currentVideoInfo;segmentTitle

BASIC MATH FOR THE UNINFORMED:

70+35 = 105. 100-105 = -5. This means that the Business is BANKRUPT. And all the F**king Tax Breaks in the World mean NOTHING, especially to all the Employees laid off after that Business Closes.

So something has got to be done by the Business to remain economically viable: a. Layoff Employees to decrease the 70., b. Pay Cuts to decrease the 70., c. Decreased or No Benefits to decrease the 70., d. Layoffs and Automation., e. Move out of the US to decrease the 35., f. a combination of a, b, c, d, e. g. Layoff everyone and File Bankruptcy Closure and start a new Business Overseas (tax on business is 6 to 9% NOT 35%).

Because of what President Obama has done (threatened various requirements on US Business) US Business does not know the Actual cost per employee and how they will affect their Budget (Businesses being responsible accurately managing every penny), so they are NOT hiring anyone.

David - Employee payroll and benefits are part of a business' expenses. A profit is derived from revenue exceeding expenses, basic income statement. Corporate tax is based on taxable income. This can vary depending on the type of company. 35% tax rate is on taxable income of $18,333,333 or higher. The lowest is 15% for up to $50,000 in taxable income. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_tax_in_the_United_States#Federal_tax_rates

david, "Most Business Owners know that 70% of Profits pays for Employee Payroll and Benefits."

I owned a business, and "profits" is after the cost of doing business be it payroll, cleaning supplies, taxes.

Profit : a valuable return : gain

2: the excess of returns over expenditure in a transaction or series of transactions; especially : the excess of the selling price of goods over their cost

3: net income usually for a given period of time

4: the ratio of profit for a given year to the amount of capital invested or to the value of sales

5: the compensation accruing to entrepreneurs for the assumption of risk in business enterprise as distinguished from wages or rent

Chip D,

You are too young to remember. The state sales tax started at 2%.

Now it is at 10% in some states. If you truly believe that that money, or any money will go towards paying down the National debt, you are in for a lifetime of disappointment.

Next time you are working on your federal tax return, and are agonizing over a decision of weather or not to round off a dollar, or take a deserved deduction, Stop and think about how flippantly the politicians THROW our money away. Makes you wonder why you are the only sucker in the room.

TReed,

There you go with the Wikipedia again.

Knine,

There is a difference between, "Gross Profit" and "Net Profit".

You can quote a dictionary term or academic school book concepts all you want, has nothing to do with Reality.

I run my successful (knock on wood again) small to medium business according to the Teaching of W.E. Deming, what I learned from Lean Six Sigma, previously being a Project Manager (multi million, near billion USDs), and the Interrelated Systems Management Approach. This is also why I know about the 35% Taxes and will soon have to make some very harsh decisions pertaining to my business at post#3.25.

Dr. Deming?? SPC?? Statistical Process Control??

He was laughed out of the U.S. for his ideas, but the Japanese took him seriously. Finally, the U.S. woke up to reality.

Edward-1075991 - Dr. Deming?? SPC?? Statistical Process Control?? He was laughed out of the U.S. for his ideas, but the Japanese took him seriously. Finally, the U.S. woke up to reality.

Kind of woke up too late. The US still has not got the concept of low Acceptable Fault Tolerance equals the physical measure of Quality (except at my business ours is .05mm (goal of .04mm) from original design, US Standard is still 7.0mm. Instead of engineering to standard we "Over Engineer" beyond standard to exceed customer expectations (we do not tell the customers this)). W.E. Deming's Principles are why everyone else's Quality went up and the US Quality went down (short term profit goals). Most of W.E. Demings Management Principles are what I have always been trained to do in the US Military as an Officer (Leadership 101) as Deming's Profound Knowledge. I train my subordinates to replace me, they train their subordinates to replace them, their subordinates train their subordinates..etc. We also train the trainers to become self perpetuating. And train to be able to do anyone else's job. I insist on this at my Business also (my Business manager was a headache, until I sat him down and explained everything before I got deployed.).

We use Six Sigma and Lean Six Sigma processes at the hospital I work at. They are getting better with it, but their first few projects weren't to successful. Being a software engineer, I follow the SEI standards for my project management and development. I don't believe that any Six Sigma program can ever acheive true six sigma within a project, the cost needed to achieve six sigma is usually too high. I know of only one project to ever achieve six sigma, which was the software for shuttle flight, Kennedy and Johnson Space Centers. Granted, that for most projects six sigma would be too much and most can live with 3 sigma.

echo82,

Before posting uninformed bullsh!t read and COMPREHED post #3.25. That also pertains to the uninformed that voted for your post.

Since when is it the right of any Government to tax the h3ll out of anyone.

Just like the past most with some Intelligence will just leave the Nation taxing the h3ll out of them. Example: Rich Multi Millionaire British Rock Stars and some Actors to escape the English Taxes, became US Citizens. And the British Businesses moved to China or India.

You want to repeat the Historically Documented Mistakes and expect a different Result.

David - You need to understand basic accounting yourself before calling anyone elses posts as uninformed.

TReed - David - You need to understand basic accounting yourself before calling anyone elses posts as uninformed.

See posts#1.146., 3.29. Add the real world experience factor of running my successful (knock on wood again) business also.

So yes, still uninformed.

david your hostility is unwarranted, and your post 3.25 does not make any sense.

echo - Some of what David comments on is right on target and I have learned some things from him, however he doesn't like it if you disagree with his conclusions or tell him he is wrong on specific details.

Steal Arab Oil

How about making the wealthy pay for his/her own medical insurance and meds...he doesnt need medicare...its supposed to be for the less fortunate.

If all politicians and their staff members, right down to the mayors and council people of towns like Anaheim and Austin, were put on Social Security, instead of the sweetheart deals they get by being government employees, billions upon billions would be saved. Of course politicians would never go for that because they are special ( royality ). Our founding fathers left England exactly for that reason and the French Revolution was fought because of such huge divides between the ruling class and the people who actually did the work. We cannot balance anything until we stop the government from from treating themselves to every whim at the cost of tax payer. Most of the members of the senate and house are millionaires. Let them buy their own cars and health insurance and let them pay for their own travel. Maybe they would be more careful with the money if they actually had to earn some of it.

elaine-2138913- How about making the wealthy pay for his/her own medical insurance and meds...he doesnt need medicare...its supposed to be for the less fortunate.

Read and Comprehend posts #1.131, 1.132, 3.25., 4.1.

And FYI Medicare and Social Security are US Citizen Contributory Funds. NOT Entitlements. Medicare IS NOT for the "less fortunate". US Congress gave you an Atomic Weggie (pulled your underware over your head and eyes so that you cannot see) while they raided Social Security and refuse to put the US Citizen's money back into Social Security by calling Social Security an "Entitlement" and not the US Citizen's Contributory Fund that it is. Now they want to raid Medicare (also a US Citizen's Contributory Fund), AND YOU BELIEVE THEIR SH!T.

Also involved in this is the FACT that Illegal Aliens do NOT pay Taxes as Cash for Work Only (stated on Illegal Alien Advocacy Group internet sites) as Employer Paperwork allows ICE to determine which Businesses to get Warrants to Seach.

Without Employer Paperwork, there is no Income Tax Withholding, no deductions for Medicare, no deductions for Social Security, no deductions for Medical, Dental, Vision, etc..

This is called Tax Evasion a Felony Crime (how the US Government ended up prosecuting most "Organized Criminals" in the US and ended up owning most of Las Vegas including the "Houses of Ill Repute" and throwing the Organized Criminals into Jail for decades (they could not get the murder charges, racketeering, smuggling, etc. to stick.).

All of this means Less US Government (Local, State, Federal) Revenues, meaning a Smaller Budget. We are talking about over 23 Million Illegal Aliens not contributing to the US Budget thru Revenues and taking as much US Taxpayer Paid Public Assistance as possible to decrease their own expenses (why they have their families with them in the US) to then have more money to send "Home" (out of the US) so that they can live like Kings when they return "Home". The over 23 Million Illegal Aliens were counted (advanced techniques) during the 2006 Nationwide Demonstrations of Illegal Aliens against the passage into US Law by US Congress of President Bush's 2006 Illegal Alien Act ("A Reponse to the Crisis of Illegal Aliens in the US" (Illegal Aliens as a National Security Threat) originally apprehensions and deportations and watered down by US Congress to Amnesty). The National Security Threat (effect on US Economy, US Jobs, US Manufacturing, US National Budget, States Economies, States Budgets, etc.) were known and successfully dealth with before like with President Eisenhower's Operation Wetback including the legal apprehensions and deportations of "Those Little Frauds" (aka anchor babies) as 100% Constitutional (upheld by US Supreme Court). As the Illegal Aliens then and now occupied the Entry Level, Low Pay, No Benefits, Hard Work Jobs that were normally occupied by the Teenagers of US Citizens, with these US Teenagers paying Taxes (US Budget, State Budget, etc.) that the Illegal Aliens even back then did NOT pay. The real current National Security Threat of Illegal Aliens other than the US Economy is they are forced to cooperate with the Terrorists by the Mexican Drug Lords, Russian Mob, Eastern European Mobs or their they or their families are murdered or are anonymously turned in to ICE (usually they just murder them to make an example to other Illegal Aliens).

David, You are absolutely correct. I am really pissed that so many politicians are calling the baby boomers greedy for using their Social Security after those same politicians forced those workers to contribute to SS for over 50 years, in most cases. Not only did people who are now of retirement age contribute with every paycheck, they were not allowed to opt out if they wanted. The money for SS was in reality confiscated just like your other taxes. That money was never supposed to be used for anything other than SS. The greedy gangster politicians raided it and will not admit it when asked about it publicly. That, is why some politicians say there is not enough money there. It was there.

Get the illegals out of our medical system, our schools and prisons. Deport them all now. It is a crime to hire an illegal. Enforce that law aggressively. They will leave on their own.

dan-282760,

When I was very young, I got assigned to D.C. (Dysfunctional Congress) as a US Military Congressional Liason Officer and the "Staffers" explained quite a bit to me (then I witnessed what they were talking about).

Later on I got Temporary Duty Assignment (TDA, assigned) to a Federal Agency on the US Borders. The primary motive was in a low intensity low risk environment to experience the Insurgency/Counter Insurgency Warfare part of US Military Asymmetric Warfare before being sent to South and Central Americas to conduct US Military Asymmetric Warfare. So I got to see firsthand the results of Illegal Aliens.

Steal Arab Oil

Riley--We have more than they do, we are just not allowed to drill for it.

If we cut off all of the illegals being supported by taxpayer dollars, got rid of the ability to sue someone after you commit a crime against them (the victim gets victimized again and our tax dollars go to the court room and all of the court house employees who have to be there for such nonsense), get rid of the lobbyists, kick the corporations out of the government, make being elected truly a public service as opposed to a quick million, print money under the federal government as opposed to the privatized federal reserve, create jobs to produce local products instead of importing everything, and ban vacations taken at taxpayer expense (punishable by jail time), legalize hemp (you can actually make a number of products with this and it's a very renewable resource), bring the troops home and let the world police itself, we could save trillions in expenses and create jobs here in America at the same time.

That is it indeed. A lot of them will be projected cuts over x-number of years, or stuff that doesn't go into effect until 2 decades from now. Or that magically happen to expire (or start) at a convenient point in the election cycle.

We need term limits NOW!

I agree Rick, the american public has become complacent with the ignorance of the politicians. I believe that Thomas Jefferson said that every generation needs to have a revolution. We have not had one in our country in over 100 years. if 300 million people all want the same things like no defecit, no big government, no government waste lower pump prices etc, than why dont we all go to washington and make it happen. what do you think the about 550 poloticians would think if they looked out there office and saw 300 million poeple!! I think we would see change within a couple of hours.

Worth at least a thought.

No name,

Right, just look at Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Barney Frank, and my favorite...Ted Kennedy. Why in hell would the good people of Massachucetts keep re-electing that liberal clown. San Francisco re-electing Nancy, we can all understand.

Steal Arab Oil

pr start saving on your own for retirement instead of counting on the Gvmnt to take care of your old ass.

Im 35, I have been saving since I was 18. I told myself early that I am not going to be working at 65. I have 5 different retirement accounts, all invested in different ways, so I CAN retire, and not have to worry about the Gubment taking care of me. ( and before you say it I am far from Rich I make 40k a year )

Personal responsability.

I hope you put your saved money under your mattress because if you invest it in an unsteady market you could end up with nothing Jeremy. Then what would you do? You should be all for a consumer protection advocacy department that would oversee your interests

echo82

I hope you put your saved money under your mattress because if you invest it in an unsteady market you could end up with nothing Jeremy. Then what would you do? You should be all for a consumer protection advocacy department that would oversee your interests

Mopney under your mattress, or a savings account for that matter, gets you nothing.

I do not need another Gvmnt Department looking over my interests. I can do that just fine myself thank you. I have made more money now in this unsteady market, then I have in the last 10 years. When the crash hit a few years ago I like many lost a lot of money. I didnt panic, left my accounts alone ( IE didnt sell anything ) and now I have made all of that money back, PLUS a very large chunk of change.

Moral of the story, do not go running for the Gvmnt to help you. Help yourself.

Jeremy thinks he's got it all figured out with his head stuck in the sand. And, I'm younger than you so the 'old ass' statement applies to you ;)

Consider yourself lucky to have your 40K/yr job- many others have lost their jobs due to no fault of their own and had to take on positions far below their capabilities due to this economic fiasco. Soon, you could find yourself out of work so, great you put some money away like many others do (taking personal responsibility). Then you find yourself having to liquidate the retirement funds just to keep a roof over your head and cutting anything pleasureable out of your life just to make ends meet, while you compete for the trickle of job openings available. At that point we'll hear you crying over your ill fate like so many others, so don't go rubbing salt in the wounds of those less fortunate than you.

With the direction things are going, people will be forced to work far beyond their 'freshness dating', once again, due to no fault of their own. But you sit there on your perch judging people as not being responsible- and that doesn't count for ever poor sap who has to work his 'old ass' off.

And, who said in this post except you about running to the govt? More judgments!

Echo who says you have to keep your money in US investments. I moved all mine to RBC (Royal Banc of Canada) 16 to 22% interest on all accounts. Im in the same boat as Jeremy only I make a bit more! I wont need my SS and will be able to pay for mine and my wifes medical insurance. Its all about planning and participating in your own life. And not expecting someone else to do it. Then getting upset because they dont!

Interesting that you have more faith in foreign investments jolly. That actually says alot...

Echo, only an idiot doesnt move their money around to where it will make the most money.

I had almost all of my money in foreign companies about two years ago.. They were coming out of the recession much faster then the US, and I made a lot of money. When those markets started to stall, I moved most of the money back into the US, and I made a lot of money. 10 mths or so ago when oilstarted to go to record levels again, I moved a good amount of my money into Oil. Made a killing.. Two Mths ago I moved 95 percent of my money out of Oil and into other investments.

The Stock Market is a risk yes, BUT if you either A) know what your doing or B) employ someone who knows what they are doing ( Option B is my way ) then you can and will make a lot of money. The kicker is, I do not have to pay my adviser all that much. He takes a very small percentage of my money when I move from one area to another.. He makes money, I make more money and we are both happy.

The Stock Market is not a " put your money in there and forget about it till you retire " option. IF you do that you can lose your ass. I started at 19 with 5,000 dollars, I'm 35 now. Assuming a doubling of my money every 10 years ( instead of every 7 like most try to do ) I will be sitting on multiple million dollars by the time I am 65. It is not hard to do, just takes time and a little money or know how.

Jeremy you are correct, Im 58 and I have been doing the exact same thing. I own 2 homes in Michigan and Florida! And I have Enough money to live comfortable (not going to say how much but your figure is close) I have several friends who just invested and left it there and as you stated their accounts are slim to none. The womne next to me whos husband was a Union VP (deceased) She thought her money was safe and she would not ever have to worry. She is cursing her husband because she is in the positions she is in today.

@echo. The deregulation of the financial markets in the U.S. has resulted on the foreign securities to be a lot more palatable for investors. All the 'shenanigans' (like ETFs, and High Frequency trading) have made it impossible for any individual investor to continue to invest in the U.S. Sanely. Al least without getting your account pillaged by either a big institution or some smart computer program that figured out how to force the individuals stop losses to trigger en mass. The U.S. markets are nothign more than a big casino now, real investment is not an option.

so more regulatory influence in the US markets should be in order then

Steal Arab Oil

Considering there are military installation in: Afganistan, Australia, Bahrain, Brazil, Bulgaria, Cuba, Germany, Greece, Greenland, Guam, Iraq, Israel, Italy, Japan, Kuwait, Kosovo, Kyrgyzstan, Netherlands, Philipines, Portugal, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, South Korea, Spain, Turkey, and the U.K. some of which have multiples.

.... I'd say we could cut a few expenditures there.

There is a LOT of waste in our military.

Yes, sure lets chop the US Defense Budget by 50% by throwing the too expensive US Civilians employed directly and indirectly by the US Military on Unemployment and fill those positions like before with the cheaper US Military Personnel.

That would include the 1,000 US Civilians from the Secretary of Defense's Personal Staff. The Political Appointees and Interns with no US Military nor Intelligence Agency experience at the Pentagon, the "Beltway Bandits", etc..

That would chop the US Defense Budget from $846 Billion USDs to $423 Billion USDs.

You want to cut even more chop the US Contractors (US Civilian Jobs) also and let the US Military do these jobs "In House" like before also.

Steal Arab Oil

Steal Arab Oil! Steal Arab Oil! — Polly wanna cracker?

Why haven't you reported them?

If you did, thanks from all of us. If you still haven't, then YOU are a part of the problem.

Think about it

Steal Arab Oil

Literacy is great, but there's no need for that many programs!

Judging from what I see up here, we need MORE of them!

You might want to consider a few things before just saying "CUT".

1. Our foreign aid is only .2% of our budget. Much of that goes for disease prevention. As the world is getting so small, and it's so easy to spread disease, do you REALLY want to cut this?

2. Deporting illegals. Sounds great to me. Depending on what numbers you read, it could vary greatly. I'll look at the conservative figure of 11 million people.

How much money do you think it will take to round up, house and transport 11 million people? Where will you house them while they wait for transport? How will you feed them. Well, I guess it will be job creation.

In addition to that, exactly WHERE will you deport them to if the potential receiving countries refuse to allow entry.

3. You have a point about the Dept of Ag, but beware that many family farms will be affected and will be bought out by the big corporates. Do we want more corporations? Especially ones that TOTALLY control the food supply?

Rhetoric is great ... the devil is in the details.

Beth, Which part of foreign aid are you talking about? Foreign aid (there are different types) because America is "broke" and we need ALL of our US dollars to stay at home, plus very few of those foreign nations do anything for us or even like us. This does NOT cover all the foreign nations we give Military, Economic, and Foreign Aid to. Plus this does not count what we give to Free Trade, Nafka, UN, etc.

2010's aid alone would have been over $278 billion (at 2009 prices), or an increase of almost $151 billion. The total shortfall is a substantial and staggering amount: over $4.1 trillion aid shortfall at 2009 prices according to Global Issues (Hopefully not all USA)

Israel: Economic 400 million, Military 2,775 million

Egypt: Economic 250 million, Military 1,300

(Couldn't get military aid on anyone else)

(Split between Egypt and Israel) Last data for foreign aid 2006 amount 5,878 million dollars. Last year could get data as it is hidden currently was 2007 was amount of 3,884 dollars

Foreign Aid in 2110 (again)

Africa 648 million dollars

South and Central Asia 3,268 million dollars

Western Hemisphere 448 million dollars

Europe and Eur-asia 631 million dollars

Near East 1,677 million dollars

Other, no listing on who (plus last data was for 2006) 8,918 million dollars

Then no name or comment listed (plus last data was for 2006) 22,828 million dollars

(There is more but difficult to find and decipher. From year to year, one must be diligent in seeking and finding the appropriate/ applicable data. As for descriptions, the filenames are useless.)

Foreign Aid Purpose: To create foreign markets for US products, esp. arms sales.
1. Foreign aid aids the giver, not the recipient.
2. Corruption is a major problem - many funds go to private bank accounts.
- - - The leaders get the money, the people get nothing.
3. Richer nations receive the most aid.

Foreign Aid Determinants: 1. Strategic considerations (Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Afghanistan)
2. Former colonial status (Africa)
3. Political alignment (Middle East)
4. Drug policy (South America)

Foreign Aid NON-determinants: Need - The poorest nations receive the least aid.
U.N. Voting Record - Doesn't count, if you can't do anything for the US.

There is more but difficult to find and decipher. From year to year, one must be diligent in seeking and finding the appropriate/ applicable data. As for descriptions, the filenames are useless.)

Foreign Aid Purpose: To create foreign markets for US products, esp. arms sales.
1. Foreign aid aids the giver, not the recipient.
2. Corruption is a major problem - many funds go to private bank accounts.
- - - The leaders get the money, the people get nothing.
3. Richer nations receive the most aid.

Foreign Aid Determinants: 1. Strategic considerations (Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Afghanistan)
2. Former colonial status (Africa)
3. Political alignment (Middle East)
4. Drug policy (South America)

Foreign Aid NON-determinants: Need - The poorest nations receive the least aid.
U.N. Voting Record - Doesn't count, if you can't do anything for the US

"Deporting illegals. Sounds great to me. Depending on what numbers you read, it could vary greatly. I'll look at the conservative figure of 11 million people. How much money do you think it will take to round up, house and transport 11 million people? Where will you house them while they wait for transport?"

How about all of the empty detention centers that have been built all over the USA, and are still being built? Not sure for whom they are being built, but would come in handy for housing them, correct?

(I myself, am not sure if they are good for that, but what are the plans for them? There are so many and more being built)

How about all of the empty detention centers that have been built all over the USA, and are still being built?

Not a bad idea. Will probably handle a few thousand of the 11 million. Don't forget, we now have to pay for the guards, the food, the utilities, etc.

Terelyn - Bring home our troops and let them do the job of guarding our borders.

Illegal against US Laws. And against President Obama's Policy, "US Military will not be used to secure the US Borders". As stated to Mexican President, April 2009 and Canadian Prime Minister August 2009.

So under President Obama's Reduction In Forces of the US Military, 27,000 US Military Personnel will be thrown on Unemployment, as the State's Militias (aka National Guard) cannot afford to absorb them. Along with the 27,000 will be the US Civilians employed directly and indirectly by the US Military to previously support the 27,000 also thrown on Unemployment, previously working in Food Service, Transportation (contracted US Civilian Airlines, contracted US Civilian Container Ships (and the Dock workers), contracted container trucks)), Sanitation (shower facilities, water purification, laundry services, etc.), Manufacturing of uniforms, equipment, etc., Maintenance (Ships, Aircraft, Weapons, Automotive, Facilities, etc.), US Raw Materials processing, etc. (quite a bit more).

With the 27,000 US Military Personnel, and US Civilians laid off no longer having money except for necessities, further unemploying those US Civilians in Restaurants, Fast Food, Theaters, Service Stations, Retail Sales, Car Dealerships, Local Governments (Revenues), States Governments (Revenues), Federal Government (Revenues), Internet Providers, Cable TV, Cellular Providers, etc. (longer list) and then becoming a "Taxpayer Burden" by being Unemployed and possibly on Public Assistance.

Beth-440386, see post# 5.3. Instead of President Obama's Reduction In Force of the US Military of 27,000. President Obama by Executive Order declares over 23 Million Illegal Aliens at the US a National Security Threat like President Eisenhower did. Then a larger scale version of President Eisenhower's successful Operation Wetback is conducted using the assets of the entire US (US Military (all), US Law Enforcement (all), States National Guard (all), US Intelligence Agencies (all), US Contractors, etc.) under US NORTHCOM for Command Control Communications, Coordination and Intelligence (C4I), US NORTHCOM Contigency Plans (same people that are responsible in the event of a Nationwide Insurrection (Insurrection Act). 1/4 of the Task Force secures the US Borders, 3/4 conduct a sweep from the Northeast-Southeast to the Northwest-Southwest.

This would mean "Immediate Deportations" using all Transportation assets of the US (including USAF, USN (Merchant Marine and Coast Guard also), contracted ships, aircraft and vehicles, etc.. US Military Tribunals (Illegal Aliens are Loyal Citizens of another Nation) proof of US Citizenship or deportation. If their Nation refuses to accept them back, they are dropped off between the US and that Nation, or between their Nation and another. And why do you have to even ask permission, you are returning their Citizens to them.

Post #5.3 included the details that you mentioned including who normally occupied the Jobs that the Illegal Aliens are currently occupying and now drifting into the US Construction Labor Union areas.

Those that must be detained will build their own Tent Prison surrounded by razor wire in the middle of nowhere, just like the one that is at Texas (a friend of mine got sent there for DWI for 6 months. all their clothes was pink. cheese sandwich and water for breakfast, lunch was bread and stew, dinner was also bread and stew. I asked him if he dropped the soap in the field showers (cold water) and he said that he never washed his arse so he would not get raped.). Their recreation and exercise was moving the ground from one location to another with buckets (no wheel barrows), picks, shovels, and rakes. The judge told Eddie that if he returns to Texas and farts in the wrong direction he will throw him back in for longer.

Those kinds of detention conditions will spread by word of mouth to even the Illegal Aliens in hiding so that they will self deport.

This would mean "Immediate Deportations" using all Transportation assets of the US (including USAF, USN (Merchant Marine and Coast Guard also), contracted ships, aircraft and vehicles, etc.. US Military Tribunals (Illegal Aliens are Loyal Citizens of another Nation) proof of US Citizenship or deportation. If their Nation refuses to accept them back, they are dropped off between the US and that Nation, or between their Nation and another. And why do you have to even ask permission, you are returning their Citizens to them.

I still don't think you comprehend the logistics of the mass transportation/detainment of people you suggest. I began with a conservative number of 11 million, you took on 23 million.

Let's look at the transportation needs for ONE million.

We'll go with buses first. Seating 50 people, adding a couple of guards, you would need about 20,000 of them. At 15' long, that's over 350 MILES of buses, assuming you could find 20,000 of them. That's for ONE million. You were discussing moving 23 million.

We'll move to the sea. Let's take the Queen Mary. She was refitted as a troop ship in WWII. The largest transport contained a little over 11,000 troops plus crew. You would need 90 Queen Marys for ONE million. Remember, you want to transport 23 million.

Now let's look at air capability. The largest aircraft flown by the Air Force is the C-5 Galaxy. The L500 variant, a civilian carrier which was PLANNED, but not ever ordered, carried 1000. A C 141, available now in the active and reserve components carries 200 passengers. You would need 5,000 flights for ONE million. Remember, you needed 23 million.

You haven't looked at fuel prices for all of this yet - and frankly, I'm too lazy to run those numbers for you.

Now, as to why you would need PERMISSION from the other countries? Pretty simple. You want to drive these buses, dock these boats and land these airplanes. Think you could do it if the receiving countries said no? And you know damn well they would since THEY have no capacity to receive just ONE million -- to say nothing of your 23. Your choice? Forcibly land and potentially start a war; turn around and go back.

Since you suggest dropping them off "between" that country and another -- I'm guessing you've never crossed a border? There is very little "between". And besides that, what about the right of the "another" country.

Let's move to housing. You suggest that the detainees build their own. OK, where do they live while they are doing that? And how many "tent cities" do you think it would take?

We'll go again to our ONE million -- this time we are detaining them in a tent city. The one which you refer to in Texas has a capacity of 2,000 (it's actually Kevlar pods). You would need 500 of those prisons for ONE million. You quote 23 million. And speaking of money, it just so happens that county is $50 million in debt for that prison (which IS being used for illegal immigrants). It cost $30 a day for those there NOW. Multiply that by ONE million -- that math is easy -- you want to spend $30 million a DAY.

(Source: http://www.texasprisonbidness.org/immigration-detention/willacy-county-goes-50-million-more-debt-expand-mtc-s-tent-city)

Finally, even if we DID all of this, what you would be doing is returning to the conditions of slave ships and concentration camps. Bear in mind, we had a few wars over just that.

So again, nice rhetoric -- with little THOUGHT.

You want illegals to return HOME -- the answer is actually pretty simple. You take AWAY what brought them here. You levy (and enforce) severe fines and even jail time for those who hire them. You disallow ANY educational, housing or health services (with the exception of public health emergencies).

Go after the EMPLOYERS and the sanctuaries -- even if they ARE "faith based".

They will then go back on their own. That's actually been proven as with the recession, and less hiring of illegals, they are already beginning to do that on a smaller scale.

Steal Arab Oil

Beth, just one thing, I don't recall anyone asking us if we were ok with the illegals coming here and expecting us to accommodate them when they do not respect our laws. Why would we respect the countries that encourage illegal immigration to our country when they clearly do not respect us? Although we could just drop them off at the border and let them walk home from there. Let their home countries figure out what to do with a sudden influx of a large number of people at any one location in the country.

Or we can go to their countries illegally, take their jobs, milk their systems (if they have one), tell them to speak English and provide us with language services, educate our kids for us, provide free hospital care to all of us, and that we are entitled to it because they stole land from us. That's basically what they are doing now.

We've had hospitals shut down because of how many illegals they have had to provide care to as a result of abiding by the law which has resulted in many being unemployed. Our tax dollars pay for those services they are using, including their refusal to learn our language, hence everything is in at least 2 languages now. How many hours did we pay someone to translate everything correctly? How much of our tax dollars have gone towards translators? How much of our tax dollars are used to educate them? Then there's housing, food stamps, WIC, etc. The way I see it, the initial cost of deportation is a drop in the hat compared to letting them stay long term.

Part of America being a 'melting pot' is that those who immigrated here did so legally, wanted to be an American, learned the language, obeyed the laws, assimilated into our culture, etc. They used to take pride that they were able to come here, to become citizens. Now they just show up expecting to be handed everything and not be legal in any way, or learn the language. They cry the race card if you tell them otherwise. Then you have the ridiculous courts entertaining their lawsuits when being illegal means they have no rights in this country to start with. More of our taxpayer dollars at work.

And did I mention the ones we have in jails across the country, overwhelming our justice system in it's entirety, the lawyers that have to be paid so they get some representation, the cost of housing them, the various paperwork and courtroom time has to be paid by someone. We aren't getting refunds courtesy of the government that helped them arrive here either. Although we really should send them a bill for the money we've lost due to this problem.

Why raise taxes? Obama can't stop spending.

ScottW: How about giving the 50% of adult Americans like yourself who pay little to no income tax and use most of the handouts and free services a 30% tax based on the 30k a year or more they are making under the table and not reporting. That would solve everything.

Our Democractic politicians don't have the guts to stand up and to do what is right for the American populace.

President Clinton left the Oval Office with a surplus in the America coffers.

What happened after that?

The next GOP administration, and its "leader," squandered the surplus and let the wealthy raid the nation's cash registers. Big give aways were made to the drug companies, Wall Street raided investment and pension funds, the Banks stole lots of money and then confiscated people's homes; U.S. companies were financially encouraged to outsource jobs, capital gain taxes dived, etc. AND THE GOP HAS THE NERVE TO SAY THAT THE MESS THAT THE LAST ADMINISTRATION HURLED THIS COUNTRY INTO - IS AN AMERICAN SPENDING PROBLEM CREATED BY PROGRAMS THAT PROTECT THE ELDERLY, THE SICK, THE POOR AND CHILDREN!

I do not know why President Obama is letting the GOP define ALL of the issues.

As hard as it may be, we still have to vote DEMOCRATIC in 2012 - and do our best to ensure that these Right Wing Psychopaths do not hurt and maim the innocent millions of American people that they are aiming for!!!

scotty,try again,surely one of these times you'll pass Economics 101

Maybe GE, and other wealthy corporations, can help America with its financial problems. Along with many other American corporations, such as Exxon, GE made 14.1 Billion dollars, in worldwide profits, 5.1 Billion of which was made in America. Yet, what was GE's tax bill? Zero!

The GOP needs to balance their lopsided equation!

Taxes discourage behavior. Taxes discourage earning and productivity. The government needs to encourage not discourage business.

You forget to mention that China uses circa WW2 weaponry and is only a military force to be reckoned with by compulsory service and a standing army of over 100 million troops. There's a reason they barely spend anything. They barely pay their soldiers a living wage and send them to battle with weapons we stopped using 30 years ago.

owen, you're exactly right, and there is no greater proof of taxes being some sort of punishment than "sin taxes". Taxes on alcohol, tobacco, lottery, etc.. They are meant to be deterents to keep people from using these products, or at least offset the cost of caring for them when they die of lung cancer or cirrhosis.

owen, they can earn and be productive somewhere else without taking corporate welfare from us and using them as deductions, not being responsible for the messes their corporations make (costing us more), not paying taxes yet receiving refunds in the billions, not investing in America but are more then willing to use our resources, and much more.

They are basically costing us more then they are worth to have here. Well, except for our politicians, they probably get paid enough

Many businesses have lost money in 2008 due to the bad economic times. If you had business losses at the corporate and/or proprietorship levels for 2008 and had income for either/ both 2006 and 2007, you could be eligible for a net operating loss carryback which could generate a substantial tax refund...This could generate a substantial amount of available cash that you may not have anticipated.. You should also consult your tax professional to ascertain where you stand. Additionally, individuals should be talking with their tax advisor to see if there is tax refunds due to them for either overpayment and/or new tax benefits offered by the government....This could generate needed cash either to invest and/or survive debt demands.

Read more: http://www.articlesbase.com/taxes-articles/tax-refunds-corporate-business-and-individuals-736014.html#ixzz1RZWQQUxc
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution No Derivatives

......they're supposed to get money back so our stock market doesn't collapse completely when our economy does. As much as I know you liberals would love to see corporations crash and burn so you could pick through the wreckage for more free sh!t, we as a country provide protection for businesses, both large and small, from excessive profit loss due to economic downturn. They are able to offset tax liability with economic losses from years past. It has been this way for decades and decades.

PS - Next time you hear "It's the Republicans who are the only ones for corporations and the rich!", remember this.....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/05/clinton-corporate-tax-rate_n_890166.html

Just keep in mind that defense cutting means more loss of jobs. Let's not forget that. I am fine with cutting out the bloat in government which we all know is there. However, please talk with Obama and his hawk supporters that starting new wars means it will be hard to cut the defense budget. I bet we have spent more money blowing up infrastructure in Libya than we have spent "investing" in many of our cities that are declining quickly.

I support ridding the tax system of credits, deductions, and loopholes for all filers. While each filer may benefit, the good of the whole does not because people make decisions based on tax implications.

The entitlements MUST be reformed. The math doesn't add up and never will. We must take off the blinders.

What a laugh the Chinese get more per every cent spent due to the fact that they still take people out and shoot them for corruption, going over budget, gyping the government, etc..

In the US we have to reward the US Contractors for defaulting on their Contracts or they will tie everything up in Court while still being paid, not doing anything until the Court Decision, and still defaulting.

Gharms - You forget to mention that China uses circa WW2 weaponry and is only a military force to be reckoned with by compulsory service and a standing army of over 100 million troops.

Since 92% of US Citizens never served in the US Military. This is also why we need a Mandatory Compulsory Military Service (Ground Combat Forces not USN nor USAF, so more know firsthand and will not want the US to get into any Wars and the US Military will have more to draw from for future Wars). I will explain:

Wrong. How about subscribing to Jane's Defense Weekly (required for US Military Officers during the schools like Command and General Staff College and War College, you pay out of pocket and can deduct that as a Tax Deduction). Ever heard of the Vargay, J-15s, supersonic anti ship missiles (specifically designed to kill USN Aircraft Carriers by evading ECM and USN Screening Ships), Chinese ABM based on Russian Federation S-400s, Chinese Anti Aircraft Missiles based on the Russian Federation S-300s (detect and destroy Generation 5 Stealth (not in USAF yet, F-35s), funny little aluminum tubes with propelled grenades in them (farther than can be thrown) about four per soldier (4 x 100 million, then add the Chinese Reserves).

Eventhough, an AK-47, AKM, SVD, were from designs originally from just after WWII, in semiautomatic mode AK-47 (800m, non optic), AKM (1,000m, non optic), SVD (1,200 to 1,600m, optic), RPG-7 (800m, optic) versus Vietnam Era Jungle Warfare M-16 (350m, optic), M-4 (250m, optic), M203 Grenade Launcher (400m, non optic).

If you do not understand what this means it means that like now the Taliban, Hamas Foreign Fighters, Chechen Foreign Fighters, Al Quada, etc. here (Afghanistan) can shoot at you for a long time with accuracy before you can get within range while dodging their attempts to kill you with many bullets, this is why unlike the US Military Conventional Warfare Forces, we use M21s/M25s (1,200m -1,600m, optic) to conduct US Military Asymmetric Mountain Warfare up here in the Pamir (Northeast Afghanistan). Then you add in President Obama's Rules of Engagement as Cannot Shoot until Shot (so they shoot at you with the biggest thing first like many RPG-7s, so that you are dead and cannot shoot back). With the Chinese and Russian Federation Supplying these to Fundamentalist Islamic Iran and Fundamentalist Islamic Iran supplying these weapons by the ton, funds from the 1.5 Billion Islamic Believers Mandatory Islamic Tithes, Training Camps, Trainers, Advisers, etc. to the Worldwide Islamic Military consisting of the International Al Quada Franchise (AQ, AQIM, AQY, AQS, AQAP, AQI, etc.), Hamas Foreign Fighters (Afghanistan, Iraq, Gaza, Palestine, South America, etc.), Chechen Foreign Fighters, Kurdistanis PKK HPG KGK, Egyptian Elements (Muslim Brotherhood), Libyan Islamic Fighters Group (LIFG, aka the "Rebels"), Army of Islam (Pakistan, not the Pakistani Military), Pakistani Taliban, Army of Islam Gaza, Hezbollah, Arabic Omani Muslims (Darfur, Sudan), etc. (there are many more including at the Phillipines, Asia, Malyasia, Indonesia, etc.), (think 2% mandatory Islam Tithes of just those (beyond rich) at Qatar). So the US and US Allies are outnumbered and outspent. And what the heck does this have to do with the Topic, the Chinese and Russian Federation Strategic Goal of getting the US and US Allies out of their Backyard (Middle East, Asia, Africa RESOURCES) with the US and US Allies becoming like Germany at the end of WWII as "Ran out of Gas", and the US becoming a Fourth World Nation. And the Chinese replacing the US as a "Super Power" making all this Budget Cut stuff trival. As the Chinese and Russian Federation have increased their Military Budgets beyond the height of the Cold War, knowing that this results in Jobs for their Citizens in all aspects of their Economies (All Manufacturing, Raw Material Processing, Mining and Exploration, Research and Development, Medical, etc.) as to why they NEED the Resources to obtain their Strategic Goals (against the US and US Allies, currently using Fundamentalist Islamic Iran as a "Proxy Fighter". And Fundamentalist Islamic Iran using the Worldwide Islamic Military as their "Proxy Fighter".). As to why the US lost Iraq Oil to Iran (Iraqis Oil Contracts to Iran's Allies the Chinese and Russian Federation, 2010), King of Saudi Arabia, "President Obama gave Iraq to Iran on a Golden Platter", 2011. King of Saudi Arabia begging the US and Israel to stop Fundamentalist Islamic Iran's control of the Persian Gulf and Gulf of Oman shipping (Oil Supertankers from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq to US and US Allies) making Libyan Oil of Strategic Importance to the US European Allies. And the "Rebels" thru Qatar selling the Libyan Oil to the Chinese, not the Europeans. So yeah, sure chop the h3ll out of the US Defense Budget, hope all of you like living in a Fourth World Nation (like Darfur, Southern Sudan, been there too on a UN UA (African Union) Mission.).

Gharms - owen, you're exactly right, and there is no greater proof of taxes being some sort of punishment than "sin taxes". Taxes on alcohol, tobacco, lottery, etc.. They are meant to be deterents to keep people from using these products, or at least offset the cost of caring for them when they die of lung cancer or cirrhosis.

That money is spent on anything but "cost of caring for them when they die of lung cancer or cirrhosis." including the US Politicians (State and Local) Automatic Pay Raises. My State used the "tobacco money" to refurbish their Government Offices and buy more Tobacco related investments for the State Portfolio.

Steal Arab Oil

Look at Isreal. They have compulsory service and they basically live in perpetual states of war. That country has been REPEATEDLY attacked by it's neighbors and have ALWAYS won. People are far less excited to invade a country where every man and woman over the age of 18 has served in the military and is trained in tactics and warfare.

I'm not sure I think we should make it compulsory, but we should make it as lucrative as say......a CEO's salary. Then everyone would risk their lives and our standing army would be around 200 million (I'm assuming only 130 million of us are children, I could be horribly wrong lol).

Anyone claiming such cuts in defense spending are reasonable has not thought through his claim. If the government divests ALL other spending, its main responsibility is that of securing the borders and national defense. EVERYTHING else that we the taxpayers deem necessary or even nice can be done by lesser levels of government.

appletoad, our income at only 30k a year is more like 20k already. A third of our paychecks BEFORE we get any money, already goes to ridiculous health insurance costs and taxes. Another 30% would put us along with millions of others out on the street. Or we would be forced to knock down doors on government services so we can take care of our families. Such an idea is absolutely absurd to even entertain.

Steal Arab Oil

Yank-957120 - 1/3 from Defense, Intelligence - Add up budgets from 2001 to now for a shock

Smart really smart. NOT that is the same kind of thing President Clinton did with his Cut to the Bone Reduction In Forces (RIF) of the US Military resulting in the niche for the expensive US Contractors. Before everything was done cheaper "In House" by the US Military.

Also see post # 11.12. President Clinton also Gutted US Intelligence (especially the President's Executive Intelligence Agency aka CIA, believed to be because the CIA was President Bush's (41) Pride and Joy as the former director of the CIA) because of this the US had Intelligence Blackouts of entire Regions, ESPECIALLY the "Middle East" resulting in the US having to rely on potentially hostile (ulterior motives) non credable non verifiable (non independently verifiable by US Military Asymmetric Warfare Forces that got RIFed) - Congressional 9/11 Commission.

So sure Repeat the Same Mistakes as President Clinton and Expect Different Results. Note that bullsh!t "Budget Surplus" was US Congress sandbagging by appropriating more money than could be spent, and per the Democratic National Committee the real indicator of the US Economy was NOT a "Budget Surplus" but the Interest on the National Debt being worse under President Clinton:

Source DNC:

President Clinton's Interest on the National Debt: $18.9 Billion

President Bush's Interest on the National Debt: $16.6 Billion

After the DNC gathered the numbers the conviently shut up and buried their own information.

Just so that your arse hole puckers, you want to cut the US Defense Budget get rid of the US Civilians directly and indirectly employed by the US Military throw them all on Unemployment and fill their positions with cheaper US Military.

Steal Arab Oil

If Bill Clinton and the democrats had not pushed low income, high risk mortgages and Barney Frank, Chris Dodd and Charles Schumer had not resisted regulation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac so successfully we probably would not be in this mess either.

You mean if Obama hadn't spend 5 trillion dollars in two years to bail out sinking companies and banks. to go from 9 to 14 trillion dollars in such a short time is insane. Very poor planning. Maybe paper comes from trees but that doesn't mean you just print more money on it.

Rick... Just to make it EVEN...here is GWBush's speech from 2002...

President George W. Bush addresses the White House Conference on Increasing Minority Homeownership at The George Washington University Tuesday, Oct. 15, 2002

THE PRESIDENT: …. I appreciate your attendance to this very important conference. You see, we want everybody in America to own their own home. That's what we want. This is -- an ownership society is a compassionate society.

More and more people own their homes in America today. Two-thirds of all Americans own their homes, yet we have a problem here in America because few than half of the Hispanics and half the African Americans own the home. That's a homeownership gap. It's a -- it's a gap that we've got to work together to close for the good of our country, for the sake of a more hopeful future.

We've got to work to knock down the barriers that have created a homeownership gap.

I set an ambitious goal. It's one that I believe we can achieve. It's a clear goal, that by the end of this decade we'll increase the number of minority homeowners by at least 5.5 million families. (Applause.) … And it's going to require a strong commitment from those of you involved in the housing industry. …

whole speech -

So if you are going to blame just Clinton for the housing and mortgage meltdown then you should also include Bush and don't forget...the meltdown was on HIS WATCH!!!

PATeacher, how can you feel sorry for anyone that knowingly pursues a position with promises of I can fix it. Most positions I held were back filling someones messes, I took them with open eyes, inherited some large messes but delivered what I said I could do. The only thing I know Obama met when elected is that he is going to "Transform America" and he's doing that. He is doing what he was educated to do, and doing it extremely well. The problem is a majority of people think he meant to do something to enhance our country, where as he is showing, he means to make us look like a 3rd world nation.

I feel bad for President Obama. He walked into a nightmare situation and has to negotiate with a Congress more interested in seeing him defeated for re-election than improving the economy.

For the first two years of his Presidency the Congress was overwhelming controlled by his party; don't forget Senator Obama and his party had control of Congress for the two previous years also. Whatever nightmare situation he walked into in January 2009, his and his party's actions have greatly worsened the economy and caused the unemployment rate to increase, not decrease, as promised if the stimulus was passed, turning what was a nightmare into another sequel to Nightmare on Elm Street.

I also feel bad for Obama. He was totally unprepared to even be a mayor of a small city and he was elected president of the United States by people who like that he was half-black and had a funny name. And of course, he really could read a tele-prompter well.

One will never convince a liberal to vote for a Republican even if it were Satan himself running, but happily we independents can recognize that we made a horrible mistake which we began to fix in 2010 and will finish the job in 2012.

@socialcapitalist I take it you are rich and think President Obama created this mess.

@Watermoon Electing the Republicans in congress in 2010 did not do a F-in thing to help this mess Bush created

@Grandpajohn-2049775 Yes President Obama did not say he was going to fix everything. Read back what he said he would do. He has accomplished 95% of it.

And this is what i don't get about the repubs in here. 9/11, 2 wars, 8 million jobs lost & the financial collapse ALL on BUSH watch. 8 years.

Now you want someone to wall in a fix it in less than 2 years then you say he created everything that happen. Wow either you are stupid or just dumb. I'll take it you are stupid.

PATeacher: President Bush only raised the overall NATIONAL DEBIT by 4 trillion dollars in his 8 years in office. obama has raised it 4+ trillion in just 2 1/2 years. Stop blaming President Bush, for obamas blunders!

@PA Teacher. I couldn't agree with you more. Bush only saw some of the deficits in his presidency because his policies for banks, and wall street had not destroyed the middle class. When we lost 8 million jobs, at the end of the Bush administration and the first few months of the Obama administration, taxes and revenue going into the government drastically reduced, add to that the outrageous tax cuts to the wealthy and well the deficit is what it is. President Obama saved the car industry and tried a stimulus but it was too little, too late. At this point, corporations have millions in their coffers and won't create jobs. I thought when President Obama gave into an extension to the tax breaks for the wealthy and lower payment into social security in December, 2011, the republican congress said that would stimulate the economy but it hasn't. Corporate America has gotten so greedy they are just over-working and killing the middle class in this country as we know it. Now the Republican Congress even though their tax breaks didn't work over the last 6 months to create jobs, want to up the situation and say no new taxes or cutting loopholes to lower the debt. That is ridiculous that again the elderly, sick, and middle class who depend more on social security and medicare will pay the price.

In the end, we need to create jobs and then with more taxes coming in some of the debt ceiling will take care of itself.

PATeacher-2253866,

Proof that Pennsylvania Teachers know nothing and should not be teaching (corrupting) the youth of America (with Demoncrap, Repugnant, In Depends (Adult Diapers) crapola.

Education Reform by making US Education Performance Based, as we do not reward a factory worker that continually produces defective products we fire their arses. (and do not give me lame excuses, I am a product of both Public (some of the worse places) and Private Schools both National and International, as well as US Military and other Nations Military Schools, I have been a Teacher (second career) in some of the worse schools that would have you running to the Union Representatives and Law Enforcement or just quitting).

The Wars (Iraq and Afghanistan) were/are paid for by US Laws with the accompanying US Congressional Appropriations. If you are even a Real Teacher (not title only) go do the Research yourself, I refuse as a real previous Teacher (still teaching Afghan children Math and Science, nothing "Religious") to spoon feed you. Hint: US Laws and Appropriations of 1998, 2002 and the counterparts for Afghanistan with both Iraq and Afghanistan being UN Missions of Nation Building. This is why President Obama Violated the US Law, 1973 War Powers Resolution, designed specifically to prevent the US from getting into any US Military Actions without Congressional Approval escalating into another Vietnam. President Obama violated the 48 hours (to notify Both Houses) so that US Congress could create a US Law with Appropriations to cover his arse, like they did before (1998, 2002) for other US Presidents. So instead against his campaign promises the start of US Military Actions at Libya were paid for by "Discretionary Funds" (what you wrongfully claimed Bush did) making President Obama's Military Actions at Libya "Unfunded", until after the fact.

US Involvement with Iraq and Afghanistan starting long before Bush (43).

And another hint your buddy "Mr. Corporate America" originally from Pennsylvania, deserted Pennsylvania after finding out that Delaware is the Key to "Corporate America". He briefed the US Supreme Court on Unlimited Corporate Campaign Contributions. For the US Supreme Court to Rule otherwise would have Invalidated the 2008-2009 Elections due to his admitted violations of US Law, McCain Feingold Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act. Do you have any idea who "Mr. Corporate America" is, or do I have to give (spoon feed) you more hints.

You are talking about chump change instead of the 60-100 Trillion USDs done by both Political Parties removal of the Glass Steagall Acts. And President Obama doing NOTHING to stop the next "Crisis" of 54.6 Trillion USDs that will sink the US into something worse than the Great Depression in my 1990s Research Paper to US Government (updated 1993, and 2009) my 2009 term was a "Supernova Depression". What is almost laughable is that many have not read my Research Paper, and those that have (State's Governors, and US Congressional Representatives) call me here at Afghanistan and ask me how to implement some of my recommendations (as if I brought that over 2,000 page research paper (1,000 pages references, appendices, charts, timelines, history, etc.) with me to lug around on my back here).

Your sob story as what did President Obama do to improve the US Economy so far (2 years), other than scare all Businesses into not hiring anyone, since they do not know what the final cost is per employee and all the threats of increasing the Business Taxes and the Business Owners (the so called "Rich" (most "Rich" Business Owner's Money is tied up in Fixed Assets, like me I do not rent nor lease I buy the property and building(s)). So sure threaten me with more taxes, I will just relocate to another Nation with Business Taxes of 6-9 percent. You can take your "Tax Credits" and shove them where your academic teacher arse don't shine, as they do nothing if I cannot afford to remain in the US and close down. That is the REAL WORLD not your Disneyland Teacher Academic World.

You too, Paulette-3717890.

add to post#15.10

You too, Cyd-997218

You have to know the Causes to change the Results (based on your post you do not know). Otherwise all you do is continue to do the same mistakes and expect different results.

Steal Arab Oil

These claims blaming others are nonsense. We have this to face now. And after all the expensive supposed cures the present lot failed to fix the deal with.

Gut the touchy feely social programs. Gut the dole. Gut the mandated social control agencies like Education, Housing and the like. States can do these kinds of things if they feel the job necessary. Get rid of OSHA and let states do this job.

So sfilutze you are saying the wealthy watch out for each other and protect their wealth at all costs. I would have to agree. The following is a list of the top 10 wealthiest members of congress. John Kerry's numbers do not include the wealth of his wife the Heinz heiress and Nancy Pelosi's wealth does not include that of her husband who owns a holding company in California and keeps his dealings private:

Here are the top ten, along with their estimated worth.

1. Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.): $188.6 million

2. Rep. Darrel Issa (R-Calif.): $160.1 million

3. Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.): $152.3 million

4. Sen. Jay Rockefeller ( D-W.Va.): $83.7 million

5. Rep. Michael McCaul (R-Texas): $73.8 million

6. Sen. Mark Warner (D-Va.); $70.2 million

7. Rep. Jared Polis (D-Colo.): $56.5 million

8. Rep. Vern Buchanan (R-Fla.): $53.5 million

9. Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.): $49.7 million

10. Sen. Diane Feinstein (D-Calif.): $46.1 million

All the people in the room negotiating America's future/debt problem are at least millionaires.

Think about that.

Both parties are at fault for creating laws to protect their own wealth and the wealth of other millionaires/billionaires, etc. They are good at throwing the rest of us bones from time to time to keep us "happy" and from rising up as one to vote their asses out of office.

Until Americans wake up, stop behaving in a partisan manner, and band together to work to even the odds of survival in America, we will continue down this road.

Turn off Fox and MSNBC and other partisan, corporate cable channels that spout the lies and half-truths our politicans tell them to spout and rely on non-partisan watchdog groups for your information. Follow the flow of our tax money.

I believe you will find that SS does contribute to the deficit - the IOU's that have been put in means that the gov has to borrow the money to fund it.

The problem with that list of wealthy people is that is assets and not income. Each and every one of them have foundations set up to pay them income and you can bet the income is less than $250,000. They own their homes and cars so they don't need more than this to live on - especially since their jobs provide them with insurance and so many other things ordinary folk pay for.

Those who are rich in income get it by producing something - except perhaps entertainers and athletes. They run corporations and small businesses that create jobs. If you want to get the Paris Hiltons of the world you have to tax assests, not income!

Rick-312779,

I do not see "Mr. Corporate America" on your list with his hidden (Off shore) assets.

Watermoon - Each and every one of them have foundations set up to pay them income and you can bet the income is less than $250,000.

How much is former President Clinton "I did not have sex with that woman" (his cum stains on her blue dress) getting from the Clinton Foundation (the interest and "administrative fees" on the Haitian Relief Fund of Millions). The crook even had a prime time TV spot saying that he did not know why the Clinton Foundation Haitian Relief Funds did not get to Haiti after the Haitians said to CBS News that they have not received anything. Where do you think the multi millions to buy their home to retire at is coming from SOS Clinton's Salary LOL.

Steal Arab Oil

People keep saying "cut their pay." Their pay isn't the problem. Each member of the house and senate have a budget for their offices, staff, and travel. It's in the millions, with some senior members having budgets as high as $5 or $6 million each. If they cut their budgets by 10%, we'd probably save more than all their salaries combined.

Why not start with the 180 billion in waste and duplication that the GAO said is lost in that bloated federal bureaucracy? Instead of cutting there, Obama instead increased that payroll by 250,000 jobs since taking office.

It is incredible to me that anyone - even a liberal - could want to take money out of the hands of productive people in the private sector and toss it into that corrupt, incompetent, wasteful black hole in Washingon. The poor and middle class are far more benefitted by a private sector job than the pittance that escapes the clutches of the federal bureaucracy corruption.

Steal Arab Oil

It does seem odd that republican's tax cuts for the rich helped get us into this situation, not to mention their wars, but they refuse to be part of the solution.

Not odd, just business as usual for the GOP

Does anyone remember THE GREAT PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN? Tax cuts work because those rich people are the ones who pay for your poor jobs, so take more from them and see how many jobs will disappear! A true leader take the problems at hand and deals with them not blame others... PS: even Clinton has said to reduce taxes to stir investment and create jobs!

GOD save the AMERICA that has enabled me to create wealth, from those who cry about what they don't have while not doing anything to help themselves!

Steal Arab Oil

This, to me, is a perfect example of what the federal government should never have spent a dime on in the first place. Where in the heck do we find in the US Constitution that the government should have any such department.

While It does not appear to be as detailed as the one you are referring to I usually refer to the below graphic when marveling at the monstrosity which is our federal government.

http://www.thecollaredsheep.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/death-and-taxes-2010.jpg

How about the billions given each year in grants to churches under the "faith based charity" programs started by President Bush? Why do we never hear people complaining about them? Churches have historically been tax exempt because they used to provide a lot of charity service, now we're paying them to do it.

Dave, I'm with you. That is just another form of welfare that should be cut: churches, corporations, farmers, able bodied adults, etc.

jwright,

The programs which you speak of such as the Department of States Cultural Programs Division are amongst the most valuable investments this country makes. Students from accross the globe are introduced to the best the US has to offer. One stealth fighter costs 43 million and does not bring bring one possible future terrorist to our point of view. The Department of Defense spends almost a trillion dollars a year the Department of State spends 27 billion. We have spent 75 billion on Star Wars programs with no particular benefit. Governments since the beginning of time have fostered and funded the arts and sciences and when all of their politicians are dead and their engines of war have turned to dust their cultural achievements remain. Virgil left us the Aeneid Homer the Illyiad and Odyssey we have the works of Michelangelo Davinci and Gallileo their works and tens of thousands of others were sponsored by governments and are all we have left of the glory of empire.

jkh

Hi jwright.

My advice is to be careful about assumptions in regard to such agencies.

A program of funding for US - South American artistic relations is frequently a cover for something else that benefits the USA in some capacity. This can be as simple as "bringing South Americans over to our way of thinking" or as complex as a CIA program of "intelligence gathering and influencing of South American elections". Either way, it ultimately has a "military" or "state department" function.

In any case, the good news is that such programs receive very small almost negligible amounts of money. So cutting them is not going to make a difference.

What needs to be cut is the obscene amount of money spent on the military every year. That is the only way to make serious cuts in federal spending.

Steal Arab Oil

That's right. Cut out the fraud and abuse of govt. funds in each agency and do away with other agencies. Start with ACORN (just one example) . They were suppose to have their funds cut off but they are still getting funded !

i agree lets start on there own backyard[congress] lets get them into social security like everyone else,why should they be different.?give to social security and retire from social security that would save a lot of money,bet they wouldn't put it to a public vote ,if it benefits them only they get to vote,

We can start with Pres. Obama and all his needless trips he takes with his family in tow, the personal staff he takes with him, etc; etc; etc. We have no jobs the economy is so well out of control and he and all of washington are living "high on the hog" and the Hard Working Americans are paying the bill.

Washington......STOP THE SPENDING !!!!!!!!!

I agree. I called My Rep. today and told Her,Diane Black, they need to give back thei 10k raise from Last Year and also the 8.2% increase they ALL recieved this year and Give those on Disability and SS a Cost of Living Raise. We haven't had one in 2yrs. This also takes into account the Veterans that are Disabled. We need those raises a Helluva lot More than The Govt does. Also, all that GRANT MONEY that is set aside for People to Get,Not talking about for school. Just the one that Anyone can get. that's probably 1 Trillion just in those cuts alone.

I agree. They should get rid of there special retirement system and join the rest of us in social security. Make theirselves not eligible untill the same age as the rest of the working people.

Steal Arab Oil

@elizabethditchkus You F-in Clown. I hope your job get eliminated and they take away your internet. Jackbutt

Taking away the Illegals would probably save @ 100 Billion also. Make them Pay the same TAXES WE pay, instead of the FREE RIDE SYSTEM, like the Politicians receive.

CYD:

Eliz, probably works for a private company, which means she's not a GOVERNMENT SLAVE, so unless BOZO completely F---S up the economy she's safe. You must be a GOOD LIBERAL, they're the only ones as VINDICTIVE as you appear to be. Crawl out from under the black cloud, the sunshine is wonderful.

@wildbill6996

Yes I a Dem and the Dems have never turned on poor people lately. Only the radical right wing nut birds who want to bring down the whole economy. We are at an all time low and the F-in idoits say cut more and more and more. Do you know what will happen? No the the bullF-inass stuff the TeaRepubs spit out there mouth - Nothing. What will happen is a world melt down of EPIC proportions. And yes your F-in job or your stocks your credit card interest rate will pass the moon.

So i hope you get what the F-in you ask for. All you F-In parrot Rebups because you don't think for yourselves.

F-in you Repubs

Steal Arab Oil