Then you also like corporate welfare and no middle class. Obama offered a larger cut in the beginning but the Repugnicans have turned everything down.

Actually No he didnt - he offered a bill with alot of debt and alot of taxes in early April what was denied by 97 to 0.

I could offer a rainbow and unicorns , doesnt make it any more real of a possibility. Face it, Obama is an idiot.

It seems like nobody cares about jobs anymore.

It looks to me that this whole chaos was created to drag people's attention from real problem - JOBS and repubs want to repeat it all over after a few months if short term deal is reached.

Yes, we are in crisis and need to cut spending but why are we not looking for ways to get back to work and get money to pay our bills the way we used to do it before?

GET AMERICA BACK TO WORK, we'll pay normal taxes, the revenue WILL RISE and we'll be able to pay for everything.

Wasn't the promise of jobs that got republicans more votes last election?

Actually, Demo, Boehner and Obama were making some serious progress - including an increase of $800 billion in revenue - until Obama got greedy for other people's money (again) and demanded another $400 billion. That's when Boehner walked away.

That is NOT bi-partisanship and Obama blathering on about bi-partisanship is laughable.

He has done more to divide this country in two years than any president before him, and this country will not come out of this recession/depression until his is out of office.

mt -

Obama has spent in excess of a trillion dollars trying to "create jobs" via government interference. The result? Two million LESS jobs than when he was inaugurated. Perhaps the Republican efforts to create jobs look different than Obama's, since doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is insanity.

The government cannot create jobs, not on the magnitude that is needed. The government can, however, create a climate friendly to job creation. While far from perfect, much of the Republican efforts over the past six months in ONE house of Congress have been attempts to get the government off the back of the private sector. Too bad Harry Reid won't let the majority of the legislation even come up for a vote.

I think the intent is that we all work for the government, either in person or vicariously. Until we start focusing on keeping our spending dollars in our own local economies (to create demand and thus jobs) our deficit to the world will continue to grow at the current rate.

At the moment, the democrats have no plan. They say they do, but there is not bill in congress with the democrat plan. The republicans have passed one (Cut, Cap, and Balance) and are wotking on passing a second. The President has not plan either.

The Republicans can't even get enough votes for their own bill from their own house members.

The Republican party is laughable. They have gotten concession after concession from the Democrats and they could have walked away winners.

The American people wanted a balanced approach with some revenue increases not, "cut, crap, and fumble".

Obama asked for 400 billion more, guess what that was? The Bush tax cuts that we can't afford.

They almost had a deal. Do you honestly think that happened with no plan? That's just ridiculous spin, the type you'd expect to see on a Fox website. Wise up.

Eric, those are now the "Obama tax cuts", since had he and his Democratic majority not passed an extension in November '10, they would have expired. He had huge majorities in BOTH houses, and TWO YEARS to repeal those tax cuts - AND DIDN'T.

He OWNS the current tax rates, having had every opportunity in the world to change them - both personal AND corporate.

And speaking of which, the "corporate jet" blathering he's been doing is attacking a tax credit that was part of HIS stimulus package. He is such a raging hypocrite.

Deal with it.

getting a loan to make payments is terrible, thats how people go bankrupt,Its so obvious, why can t people understand that?

WHAT A JOKE.

All of this fighting and NONE of the proposals will DECREASE our debt and ALL of the proposals continue to ADD to the debt for the foreseeable future.

It is a joke that the media and American people allow congress and the president to make such a fuss over "future" reductions in "projected" spending which means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

The American people are in REAL trouble. We will either lose our AAA credit rating causing massive inflation, OR we will lose World Reserve currency status. Either way we are in for likely hyperinflation at this rate sometime in the next 2-4 years.

Prepare your families. It is GOING to get ugly... it's only a matter of time.

That is of course unless we elect Ron Paul, the ONLY person in DC telling the truth about all of this and the ONLY person with logical solutions to fixing our problems.

The US GDP for Q1 has been adjusted downward today from a sad 1.9% to a dismal 0.4%. Who cooked those books? The US GDP for Q2 today is reported at 1.3%. In my view, there is no recovery in this economy despite our government throwing nearly $450 billion around during this period, the most 'spend to grow' money of all Nations.

US spending is ending because she is broke, and the spending is doing harm, not good.

Germany today reported all-time record consumer spending, and a 6.3% GDP. It is interesting that Germany throws the least amount of money at her economy of any Nation.

And speaking of which, the "corporate jet" blathering he's been doing is attacking a tax credit that was part of HIS stimulus package. He is such a raging hypocrite.

Honestly, that is not even a tax credit. If you buy a corporate asset you should be able to WRITE OFF the EXPENSE ENTIRELY the first year. The government "tax credit" forces you to take the hit over 7 years. This is not a "credit", it is a penalty.

Just more half-truths and lies in DC... probably our biggest problem.

Pragmatic -

I am not saying that government is supposed to create jobs. I agree that their job is to create good environment for businesses and they are just not working on it. Instead they create one balagan after another just to make themselves look hard working.

And what Republican efforts you are talking about? Lower corporate taxes? They are not paying any anyways using loopholes. Anything else?

"almost had a deal" is not a plan. Where can we find the plan? What bill has been submitted in the House or Senate that contains the plan?

In '96 Clinton "temporarily borrowed" funds to meet the March SS benefit obligations. Lawmakers said the additional securites would not count against the debt limit.

Interesting interview with Richard Wolfe late last night (author of Capitalism Hits the Fan). Like to see a fact check but he said:

1. in the 50's and 60's for every $1 paid in taxes by individuals, corporations paid $1.50 - today the ratio is $1 to 25 cents

2. in the 50's-60's individual tax rates for income over 100,000 was 92%, today it is 35%

Granted, in the 50'2 & 60's were rebuilding after WWII and great depression - massive infrastructure investment and things like the GI bill ..... but, with an aging population, crumbling infrastructure and health care 20% of GDP, where exactly are we going with spending cuts only? Current corporate tax rates do not convince me that cutting taxes creates jobs.

Pragmatic --

The government is the ONLY entity that can create jobs on the level needed to budge this recession. Further cutting public service jobs only adds to the loss of revenue and the unemployment rolls. How does that help the economy, long OR short term?

Rick - I am about sick of this "The President has no plan" meme that you guys got from your non-elected heads of the party, Grover Norquist, Karl Rove & Co. The President was willing to give within TWO PER CENT of everything your guys were asking for, following initial guidelines that the GOP was demanding 6 months ago -- and the Tea Partiers panicked, because they couldn't support anything THIS president wanted -- so THEY "moved the goalposts," Mr. Boehner, not the President -- and decided out of some kind of misbegotten moral "purity" that they wanted more. More of the money that the middle class and working poor take home and actually spend, in their own neighborhoods, cities, states, country, which stimulates the economy in ways the wealthiest never seem to get around to. The hell with that. If the Tea Party got finessed, it was their own doing entirely.

Germany today reported all-time record consumer spending, and a 6.3% GDP. It is interesting that Germany throws the least amount of money at her economy of any Nation.

Well Germany highlights one of our if not our single biggest issue.

Germany has HUGE trade surpluses EVERY year because they effectively use tariffs to control their trade balance. The US runs MASSIVE trade deficits. It's as simple as more money goes out of the US than comes in, and more money comes in to Germany than goes out.

Pragmatic, Obama signed them in compromise. We have never been able to afford the Bush tax cuts. The lack of revenue generated by the tax cuts did not create jobs but more deficit.

The "starve the beast - trickle down economics" that the Republicans keep going for will ruin this country and its economy.

The Social Security trust fund is full of IOUs signed by Who's Who in government amounting to trillions, no cash.

Debt limit is a balanced budget amendment by default.

Any increase "MUST" have immediate spending cuts not spread over ten years

mt - for starters, they attempted to repeal Obamacare. That is a major weight on American hiring right now, because people and business have no idea what their liabilities are going to be when it takes full effect. What they do know is that 1,300 cronies of this administration got waivers from it, and that people's insurance and medical costs continue to sky rocket.

They have tried to pass legislation that would prevent the EPA from shutting down multiple coal fired electric plans via regulations that would make the cost of energy skyrocket (per Obama's own words) and cost tens of thousands of jobs. There is, as of now, no alternative to the energy produced by those plants either.

They have tried to neuter many of the bureaucracies in Washington that doing via the regulatory structure what Obama couldn't get passed in Congress, even when he had huge majorities in both houses of Congress.

Go to www.house.gov and read up on some of the legislation.

ornerydem -

How would the government create 10 million jobs? How much would that cost, assuming it was even possible since "shovel ready" is a lie? Where does that money come from?

Why do you still believe, after mountains of evidence to the contrary, that government is the solution?

The government is the ONLY entity that can create jobs on the level needed to budge this recession.

Absolutely ZERO truth to this. Also, the government has thrown over $5 Trillion at this problem. If they were really concerned about consumer spending, instead of giving that 5 Trillion to the banks and corporations, they could have given every adult American a $17,000 check.

Also every $1 the government spends to "create jobs" in government sector is DEBT... we have a DEBT problem and the dollar will soon be dead. Then you will see what REAL unemployment looks like and what a $100 loaf of bread looks like.

Eric:

All sides have made concessions. The Rep leaders have put both Defense spending and tax increases on the table. Obama in turn put entitlement spending on the table. One problem is that they couldn't agree on how much of which. The other problem is that Reid's plan doesn't call for any entitlement cuts. He's the only leader who isn't compromising.

Both parties got us into this mess, and only both parties can get us out.l

Tax cuts DO NOT create jobs. Nobel laureate Michael Spence, author of The Next Convergence, has looked at which American companies created jobs at home from 1990 to 2008, a period of extreme globalization. The results are startling. The companies that did business in global markets, including manufacturers, banks, exporters, energy firms and financial services, contributed almost nothing to overall American job growth. The firms that did contribute were those operating mostly in the U.S. market, immune to global competition — health care companies, government agencies, retailers and hotels. Sadly, jobs in these sectors are lower paid and lower skilled than those that were outsourced. "When I first looked at the data, I was kind of stunned," says Spence, who now advocates a German-style industrial policy to keep jobs in some high-value sectors at home. Clearly, it's a myth that businesses are simply waiting for more economic and regulatory "certainty" to invest back home.

These people are acting like children, they are worse than my 3 and 7 year olds fighting over which tv show to watch.

I hope all the tea partiers are happy with what (yes I meant what not who) they elected in to congress. These people are truly a bunch of idiots. Everyone screams about taxes, but where do you think gov't revenue comes from? Uh...taxes! Just raise taxes or at least let all tax cuts expire, cut spending on all this useless crap that is out there and lets move on. the big T (taxed) E (enough) A (already) repubs are the worst of the worst. Sure no one likes taxes but if the big corporations and the overly rich people were taxed the way the "middle class" (if there even is one anymore) are taxed we probably wouldnt be in this mess.

BTW...is it just me...the Boehner cant possibly be pronounced as "Bainer" but as "Boe-ner". U all had to see the headline "Raging Boehner" right. What a joke

mt, cutting and pasting from who knows where doesn't address the issue.

Assuming you were responding to me, I didn't even mention taxation, so .... wow.

Eric he had a dem majority who did he have to compromise with?

Pragmatic, companies aren't "uncertain" about health care costs. Without the health care law, companies knew that they would be spending between 10 and 30% more per year. They were shedding their insurance plans.

Republicans keep saying "repeal and replace", well they haven't created anything to replace it with. Wouldn't that cause uncertainty?

Pragmatic, you're absolutely right: "Eric, those are now the "Obama tax cuts".................."

........so shouldn't you good GOP'ers be working night and day to repeal them? I mean, that IS your politcal philosophy is it not? Subvert, destroy, miscreate anything the President has done since he took office? You've really mastered the art of saying "no." Gosh, you guys can't even say yes to your own Speaker of the House.

While you're forcing congress to repeal the "Obama tax cuts," maybe you'll want to recruit Nancy to give John a little advice about how to control his troops.

Scott -- Germany has one of the oldest private/public universal health care systems in the world, a vastly successful model, as well as generous retirement benefits -- and it works. Your citing them shows that this is a model we should follow. I agree! (Meanwhile, GE just outsourced another zillion jobs to China BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO PAY EMPLOYEE HEALTH CARE COSTS THERE, and that creates an environments beneficial to corporations. Imagine that!)

unreal -- you don't get it. We simply want to be allowed to pay the INTEREST on the Bush tax cuts, the two unfunded wars, the depredations on our economy caused by the deregulated-bank heist of 2008 and corporate welfare over the last 12 years. Only a little over one trillion of this amount has been initiated during Obama's administration, and the deficit was actually declining slightly as of June, thanks to his efforts to stimulate the economy. If we don't pay the interest now, and default, the interest rates go up -- just like on your credit card, with penalties -- and we pay three to twenty times as much. The Constitution says it MUST be paid -- I'd rather do it now than watch the govt throw twenty times as many of my dollars at it next year. Why is this so hard to understand?

Pragmatic, if Mr Obama is not trying to by bipartisan, Why did he allow the extension. But the attention now is the BIPARTISAN or lack there of to come to an agreement on the budget. There seems to be a lot of tax cuts that the Republican's support, but too much arrogance on there part to bend a little and let the president do his job.

We the people elected him to be president but now some are so hell bent on getting him out that they will reluctantly do anything to jeopardize his effectiveness to lead. The stock market crashed under W. and was making steady increases showing signs that Mr. President must have been doing something right. SO let him do his job while it is his and vote him out, if you can, when his time is up.

Until Jan., 2011, the Dems had the white house, the senate, and the house. They could have done anything they wanted. They pushed HCR through with 1 Republican vote. Not only did they not complete a budget, they didn't raise the debt ceiling when they could have done it no problem at all. Here we sit with 51 tea partyers in the house and we're deadlocked getting nothing done. Who's really at fault? We'll get downgraded no matter what and we'll pay trillions in added interest for this fiasco.

The Republicans vowed that their #1 priority was to make President Obama a one-term president. That is the wrong priority. Their #1 priority should be the citizens of this country. The Republicans, although they are the majority party in the House of Representatives, hold the minority view on how to deal with the debt problem. Two-thirds of the voters want a balanced approach that combines spending cuts with revenue increases to solve the problem.

The Bush era tax cuts did not work. The decrease in revenue caused by those tax cuts caused the economy to slowly sink into crisis. The Republicans used their "hostage" tactics to have the cuts extended, now are following the same tactic to obtain large cuts in the budget without any plan to increase revenues, not even closing earmark-type tax loopholes for wealthy special interest groups.

The Republicans keep beating the drum that it is wrong to raise taxes during a time of high unemployment, but they suggest deep cuts that will cause massive layoffs in both the private and public sectors of our economy. Don't they understand how transparent their argument is to thinking Americans?

My god, you people are adults who have been acting like children with the blame game bull@!$%#. I have been reading articles and comments for the last two weeks and it is the same crap over and over again. The teapublicans are terrorists, and the democrats are socialists.

Both parties are at fault here. This whole thing started because the last time the debt ceiling was raised under bush, congress raised the ceiling under the assumption that they would find a way to cut spending.

Here we are again and the republicans saw this as an opportunity to hold the government true to its word and finally cut ridiculous amounts of spending.

The republicans want to cut spending drastically and not raise taxes at all. The democrats want to cut spending a little and raise taxes on households and institutions making over 250,000. Both parties did not want to give concessions. The dems agreed to spending cuts but would not agree to cuts that are drawing the largest deficits, aside from the military. The repubs do not want to raise taxes on people making 250,000 or more because they dont agree with where the tax dollars are being allocated.

There are so many underlying issues here and this whole thing is one giant cluster @!$%#. There needs to be a congressional bipartisan committee set up to cut fat and dissolve corruption in all corners of the government, including themselves. Taxes need to be reformed. Loop holes need to be closed. And the government should favor a small business enviroment. Small businesses stimulate local economy by hiring local and usually buying goods and resources from other local businesses. The problem with raising the taxes on anyone/thing with an income of over 250,000 is that it targets a large quanity of small business, a company with 500 or less employees. And over 60% of the american working force is employed by small business. That is why there needs to be significant tax reform.

People just blinding saying that all republicans have a complete corporate agenda is complete bull@!$%#.

The reality is in washington, both parties are playing the finance fiddle, and passing any legislation that favors the fat cat corporations that fund BOTH sides.

To clear things up about the Obama and Boehner debt talks, they were just talks. Everything that the whitehouse has said and supported is just talk. The President and the executive branch DO NOT WRITE LEGISLATION. That is congress's job. The fact the every other comment from either side is bashing obama's plan just shows the flaws in our education system that people dont understand the basic functions of their own government.

Obama tells congress what he wants in a bill and what he will support. That is it. The obama administration's budget proposal for the 2011 fiscal year is what was voted down in the senate 97-0 because of its lack of content. That had nothing to do with the current debt talks.

Both parties got us into this mess, and only both parties can get us out.

Based on Good ol Harry's statement below I don't think that is going to happen.

Reid: 'As soon as the House completes its vote tonight ... It will be defeated'

Duhhhhhh.... any solution must be bipartisan.... !

What an intelligent statemnet from a guy who is suppose to be... "The Leader".... ! It is so obvious that this is how things are suppose to work... and this is the BEST line his advisors could advise him to say...? Wow....!

So.... Mr Leader... duhhhhhh.... does it have to be a sunny day ouside to be a sunny day...? And do clouds have to be present to have rain...? Duhhhh.... dis preziden is reawy smart izn't hee...?

Pragmatic - I was not responding to you about taxes.

Now in response to you I see you hate Obamacare, how do you like NAFTA?

We know who is really at fault in this crisis... The republicans. They are the ones that are holding the nation hostage over this issue. They are the ones that voted 7 times to raise the debt limit with no strings attached during the Bush years yet now they are soooo concerned about debt. Where were they when Medicare part D was passed with no way to pay for it. Where were they when they passed the Bush tax cuts with no way to pay for them... As usual the republicans have a memory issue. The American people know who is to blame..

onery dem....

The government has enough income to pay all obligations including interest and social security.

The government must be made to stop stupid spending and as large as it is to find a few hundred billion here and there is not rocket science

By the way cut and paste was from Time Magazine 'What US Economic Recovery?' for June 8, 2011

What we need is about 200,000 people to show up outside the capital and demand a big reform package. I wander if they would call in the troops on us like every other country does or if a peaceful demonstration would really be tolerated or not?

President is a douche bag plain and simple No balls No Leadership all Talk and No Play.

Worst President Ever and both parties are inept at this point but the bucks stops at our Leaders doorstep.

@!$%#ty leader

mt -

NAFTA was signed into law almost 20 years ago - by Clinton with Democratic majorities in both houses, and was something Obama campaigned on addressing. He hasn't. I'm no fan of NAFTA, I wasn't when Bush I was pushing it and Clinton finished it, I'm not now. I'm not a fan of any trade agreement that puts us at a disadvantage and effectively results in wealth redistribution out of this country and into other countries.

General response to the left wing name calling with no reason or logic behind it - keep it up. The more of this crap you engage in, the more people see how little thought there is behind your positions, and the more your positions will fail. The Democratic party, of which I was a proud member for 22 years, is an embarrassment to its former self. So do carry on, and show the true colors of what the party has descended into.

The dombocrats are obstructing plain and simple. The reason they don't have a plan on paper is so they can keep changing their story and they really don't want you to know what their plan is for you.

Sorry to keep harping about Germany. One report at least 3 years ago said the impact of US military bases in Germany amounted to about 20% of Germany's GDP.

Why not bring those tens of thousands of Americans back to our own soil? They can spend their paychecks in American towns. 66 years is long enough to 'occupy' Germany.

Come on, people! That was a Sir Mix-a-lot reference. Have you no souls?!!!! Anyway, get a load of McConnell "the GOP is doing the hard work of governing." Bwah ha ha ha ha!!! What a lying piece of garbage. The GOP hasn't governed since they lied their way into majority. Jobs. Yeah, right. Did we say jobs? We meant god, guns and tax cuts, getting rid of unions (can't stand me no middle class, right teabillies?). What a boldfaced, outright, sociopathic lie. They have been obstructionist from the day Obama got elected, party first in everything they do. America doesn't matter, as long as they can stick it to Obama! Their conduct is almost criminal.

Tim Collins,

No they would not bring troops out. They would however send out a few Democrat representatives so they can accuse you of making racial comments directed at them in an attempt to get the media to discredit your demonstration.

Dear Mr. Yellow road....... "Until Jan., 2011, the Dems had the white house, the senate, and the house. They could have done anything they wanted."

Did you forget how to spell "filibuster?" Your friends in Washington didn't. Why they actually got so good at not allowing any decisions to be made they're still doing that. I haven't heard though: did they make a decision on naming that post office yesterday? That would be something I guess.

The worst part is, they want to open free trade with three more countries. How many more jobs do you think that will cost us? We need trade restrictions. Not free trade. Restricting trade will create jobs. Every trade agreement we made has cost us jobs and factories to move. That has also cost us billions in lost tax revenue and they just keep selling us out more and more.

Tough talk is just a sign that people aren't really listening to anything outside their own eardrums.

What Boehner said is 'true' for those who were already going to take his word as gospel before he even spoke. Same goes for Obama. Then everyone here seems to spend their time spewing their hate for the 'other' side, based on who they 'believe.'

Iran is a country that works the same way, if you don't bother listening to the other side. So everyone here who only listens to one party and spends their time hating the other, you make me laugh when you mock extremist Muslims.

Somewhere, hopefully, the thinking Republicans and thinking Democrats will give the finger to the radicals in their base, and realize that they can get re-elected just fine with the independents who outnumber the red-faced ragers.

the most ridiculous part of the repub house bill is that it calls for a balanced budget amendment to the constitution before part 2 of their debt increase proposal can occur.

well folks, obviously the house repubs do not understand the amendment process and how long it can take. 2/3 of each house have to pass the suggested amendment and THEN it goes to the states where 2/3 of the states' legislatures have to pass it. this process can take YEARS not months.

this is why mccain said the house repubs were being dishonest...

this is what happens when you have a poorly educated electorate...just keep watching "dancing with the stars" folks...

President Obama is the only one doing the bi partisan talk. He has my vote come 2012.

Tax cut doesn't creat jobs, it's the same old lies. The rich and corporations enjoy Bush tax cut in last 8 yrs, extended by Obama and WHERE ARE THE JOBS?

We want balance budget with balance approach, CUT spending and MORE revenue, it's that simple. We need to make MORE and spend LESS. Not make LESS and spend MORE. We are in this Crises because of we make LESS (tax cut) and spend MORE (two wars, medicare etc...).

Everyone is still playing "the blame game". It's time to stop the nonsense.

Boehner wants a debt increase of $900 Billion for $900 Billion in cuts.

Reid wants a debt increase of $2.4 Trillion for $900 Billion in cuts (the rest of Reid's 'cuts' are merely nonbinding assumptions).

a 'grand bargain' is not feasible right now, so we need a short term extension. If not, the 'blame game' will get very acrid.

Too bad Obama 'reneged' on the deal that he negotiated with Boehner and demanded a 50% increase in the amount of tax increases at the last minute.

Bi-partisan by definition will require BOTH parties having input. Obama must include the Conservatives input as well as the Liberals. If Obama wants to show he can be a leader, then he must lead. He must bring both parties together. Until he does this he will continue to be a second rate President.

Sorry to keep harping about Germany.

Me too.

Germany is on its third round of stimulus spending.

Yeah ..."ThinkinginWitchita".... that's what it was..."excitement".. wow...! Looks like you just couldn't resist merely picking out the "typos"..., to comment on... in your mind then.. the rest is acceptable... cool...!!!

Here's a free clue, since it don't appear that you are very literate to go buy one or borrow one on your own.... "NOBODY IN KANSAS IS A THINKER", and everybody knows that ... except "YOU".... LOL!!!

#1. Let them start by cutting their own salaries and eliminating the paycheck they receive if they complete a single term in office and are voted out. All of them are over paid and have voted for bills that allowed this country to fall into the current crisis.

#2 Why should the government purchase products well above the retail value (toilet seat, cost the public 30.00, government 120.00 etc.) Tons of wasted spending on consumable items.

#3 Withdraw from these unwanted wars, costing the United States trillions.

#4 Decrease the size of the government, need some good old fashion corporate style restructuring.

#5 Implement a flat tax system, everyone pays the same rate whether they make 50 dollars or 50 trillion.

#6 Opt out or restructure our failed trade agreements, we have a 50 billion and growing trade deficit.

I can put together a few more ways they can help the people of our country. But you know, we only have our selves to blame, we voted them in and didn't have the common sense to vote them out. There is no unity in congress it is all about the republican or democratic or the tea party. They have no interest in the people who put them in office, they are owned by corporate America as that's who truly paid for their bids for election and re-election and most bills voted on or into law benefit those corporations not the public.

It's amazing watching the GOP in here try and spin the blame on Obama. Obama has taken tax on the wealthy off the table and now we're just talking about closing loop holes... but that's not enough.

All this" Obama has no plan" crap is just that. The Dems have caved. The Republicans just can't stop moving the line backward.

But McConnell offered his support to Boehner on Friday: "Over in the House of Representatives, you've got the speaker of the House doing his job," he said. "Republicans have been doing the hard work of governing this week. It's about time Democrats join us."

Finally, some true words coming out of Congress......now if everyone else would start doing the hard work along with him, then maybe we could get the job done.

Exactly chuck. Obama want tax increase for the wealthiest Americans and close all taxes loophole in exchange for cuts. The Problem is Tea party don't believe in those cut, they all are phony cuts, so tea party want their bills only. Obama won't compromise without adding more revenue and close all taxe loopholes in the bills.

old fat guy --

you gotta think proportion here. ONE DAY of the Bush-now-Obama tax cuts for the wealthy would pay for an ENTIRE year of the Women-Infants-Children programs that the GOP want so badly to cut. How does that help anyone? Social programs scrape for every dollar, and make every dollar work, while waste and graft are widespread in military spending in Middle East countries. Why cut the one without even looking at the other? Why attack Social Security, which is deficit-neutral, and Medicare, which is one of the best-run programs with a radically low overhead (aside from the disastrous unfunded GOP-driven Part D giveaway to the pharamceutical industry, which added some of those hundreds of billions to our debt).

Is it impossible to ask for compassion and fairness when looking at the long-term effects on our country? What we are all fighting for is the kind of country we want to live in. And if the tea partiers want to scream about taxes and keep all their hard-earned money (because no one else works as hard as a tea partier, just ask them) and remain oblivious to the true cost of infrastructure and a workable society as a whole -- then they really should just go find another country, because that's not what this country was founded upon.

goldenone: Read what was said again. The second cap increase is tied to the BBA getting out of congress, not enacted by the states. Congress is the only thing stopping the passage of a BBA. Polls show that the majority of the American people are in favor of a BBA . I don't particularly like the wording of the version being pushed by the Tea Party (supermajority for tax increases is bad policy, I'd rather see supermajority for deficit spending, except in time of Constiutionally declared war). However, I (like most of the American population) am definitely in favor of amending the Constitution because the politicians have PROVEN they can not constrain themselves. McCain's position (my interpretation, I am not a mind reader) is that there is no way that the Senate dems will allow a BBA to pass, so it is a waste of time to try, I disagree. You fight if the fight is right, not if you think you can win.

Agreed that he needs to compromise, but compromise is not the same as caving in. Boehner can't even get his own Party members in line. His admonition to "get your ass in line" failed. How do you expect Obama to work with people who don't even get along with members of their own party? How is that the President's fault? Do you suggest he simply allow a minority, and the Tea Party is definitely a minority, to get what they want to the exclusion of the majority?

Did you watch Faux News this morning? It was hysterical wathing them try and spin this on Obama.

Faux News = pure deception.

Too bad Obama 'reneged' on the deal that he negotiated with Boehner and demanded a 50% increase in the amount of tax increases at the last minute.

There's that deception again. Commenting out of context!

In order to give Boner and the GOP what they wanted Obama had to give the senate Dems a little more in terms of revenue generation (NOT TAX)...

Those spending cuts FAR EXCEEDED stimulative revenue tax law changes!

SO, MORE CUTS THAN REVENUE!

Please tell me how this is not what the GOP wanted?

You people just can't stop pointing the finger. But I'm sure the TP would have been on board there too.... LOL.

Hmm StopTheLiesNow - Dems have done nothing, nadda, zilch. No bills, no ideas other than tax and spend... I think it is really ironic that all the Libs yelling the Party of No have just crawled under their table and are hiding now... Obama is the worst offender and why Congress walked away from him... StopTheLiesNow - great name, humorous in fact.

Ok almost a thousand comments on this news article so far...here's a suggestion

ALL THOUSAND OF US, NEVER VOTE FOR THESE CLOWNS EVER, EVER AGAIN! Time to get new blood in the big house, in the senate, hell even in local government. The out of date, out of touch fogeys only care what's good for them (i.e. what puts $$ in their pockets only) and only care what will get them re-elected.

I guarantee a classroom full of poli sci students could have solved this problem. Why? They don't squabble over party lines, they don't care about greed, they are altruistic and want to come up with creative solutions and do what's right. I will never vote for anyone over the age of 45 again, and I suggest none of you do either.

This is what happens in a democracy when the ignorant and misinformed elect the stupid and misguided. We get gridlock. The tea baggers, driven by the Murdoch conservative media machine, (Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck and the Wall Street Journal) are reaping the results for their blind ignorance while driving the country into another financial mess. They want to blame it on President Obama, but clearly it is stupidity and intolerance of the right-wing extremists that are continuing to bring us down. Their goal, so aptly expressed by Rush Limbaugh, is to 'make the President fail'.

They don't realize that by doing so, it makes this country fail.

See... I told you all that ..."NOBODY IN KANSAS IS A THINKER"....

LMAO... at you and so are others... !!!! You just can't see people like that on free TV or cable... only here... can you imagine what this person ..."LOOKS LIKE"... OMG !!!! FROM KANSAS TOO"... both at the same time.... LOL...!!!

Pragmatic - that is exactly my point. It all started 20+ years ago. Major changes must be done like changes to NAFTA. And all repubs do this days is try to repeal, prevent, block anything that is proposed. Where are their propositions?

And you don't have to see it all in black-and-white. People that don't like repubs behaving are not necessarily democrats.

Sorry, I attached it to a wrong post at first, so I copied and pasted.

Who is the REAL President?

Boehner or Obama----Obama is sitting on the sidelines---is he LEADING the Country?---Who is it?

President O is standing on the sidelines, still campaigning in his speeches to the American Public---

Note: What is HIS SOLID PLAN?:

My Partner is going NUTS over both parties---having a hissy fit---this Debt Ceiling will affect all of us---more spending, more taxes, and never another generation who can live a somewhat decent life with enough income to survive. It is that desperate.

If the problem is not resolved, it will affect ALL Global Markets, thus the entire world is looking toward the US to lead---this is the most serious problem to face America in many centuries, abyss, the Wars--

Scream if you are going crazy over the lack of reality among the Congress people. They can't touch base with the average American; especially the Freshmen Tea Partiers. What do they care? Only about themselves and getting re elected. Push down (no) for all of them when voting this next coming Presidential Election.

Attention was brought to this by a competitor News organization (this is not a direct quote, but it gets the point across):

Not raising the debt ceiling is analagous to you buy a bunch of stuff on your credit card, and then you decide to tell the credit card company that you don't really want all that stuff you bought. In other words, what would happen is the credit card company would shut you down for all future borrowing transactions. Yes, you'd get to give back all those items, by getting them repo'd, and then when your car broke down, you'd get to forge your own part to fix it because nobody would give you money for a new part if you didn't have cash on hand.

Not stupid people are therefore pointing out that this is about changing spending habits, not about denying the debt ceiling gets raised. In other words, you pay the bills you owe, and then you stop running the credit card like a spendthrift. Politicians who have written off raising the debt ceiling are more fundamentally flawed in their knowledge of finances than a half-brained platypus doing your taxes.

Derek:

Good explanation!

The government has proven that they are not interested in running this country anywhere but into the ground. Every last one of them. The answer is painfully obvious. We need to manufacture something in this country other than pharmaceuticals and incarceration. And millions of nerds hanging around the water cooler all day at federal government offices is not the answer to unemployment. Do you know what the vast majority of those unfunded mandates are targeted for, the medicaid, the insurance? To pay the pharmaceuticals to poison the elderly. Trillions of dollars, right into the pockets of an industry with the worst product safety record in human history. You can argue amongst yourselves all you like, but that won't change one fundamental fact. Your government is at war with you, with wall street giving the marching orders.

The solution to this issue is pretty simple.

1. Demnocrats need to quit lying about what is in the Boehner plan or read Reid's plan and realize that most sections are nearly identical.

2. Reid and the Demnocrats need to take the smoke and mirrors and BS out of their plan and realize they are only really cutting about $900B in spending. Perhaps they need to read the plan to understand that.

3. The Top two folks (Majority and Minority) in both houses of congress need to get together and iron out the minor differences - $7B in cuts to Pell Grants for Demnocrats and $8B for Republicans - make it $7.5B and get over yourselves.

4. Add a requirement to whatever bill passes that there be an amendment to the constitution sent to the states to require a balanced budget with appropriate expceptions for specific types of emergency situations - war, weather, etc.

5. Pass the damn bill and send it to the man child Obama. Yes he will cry because it will only extend the operational time for the government by a few months and he'll continue to call Republicans Grinches, but he had his chance for a grand deal and he squandered it by crying for more.

You know I wonder how these two plans could be so close in action? Could it be this is the deal that Boehner and Reid had worked out that blew up because the man child Obama cried that he wanted more. Could be...

I'm actually trying to point out that the damage we do by not raising the debt limit IS ludicriously catastrophic. And totally shouldn't be an issue. And we have total control over it. And there should be no wonder that the fact that it was even mentioned as a possibility caused irreperable damage. Imagine if you even called your credit card company and told them you were thinking of not paying them?

Anyway, thanks for the credit, but I admit it was crystalized for me after reading another explanation on it.

If it makes you feel better go ahead and collapse the truth He SUCKS as our Commander in Chief.

His piss poor performance and the monkeys he put in charge only helped destroy our country.

Taking large amounts of money from people who work hard as hell and raking them over the coals for more taxes to give to the ones who do not work hard is bull@!$%#.

He has not worked with the other side at all it's all about him and his band of incompetent fools.

mt - and everyone opposing Obama and the Democrats is not necessarily a Republican. However, on this thread, you have people clearly leaning one way or the other so far, they're falling over.

Right now - at this moment in time, on this issue (the debt ceiling) - I happen to be on the side of the Republicans. This isn't because I'm a Republican. It's because I do not believe that Obama or the Democrats "get" the magnitude of the issue. If they did, they wouldn't demagogue every effort made by Republicans to reign in spending - screaming that Paul Ryan wants to "end Medicare", that autistic children will have to fend for themselves, etc. etc.etc. None of that is true, nor is it helpful to a debate.

The FACT is, we are borrowing 40 cents of every dollar we spend right now, and that is unsustainable - and half of that is paying for entitlements. I have children, who I do not want to see enslaved to debt any worse than they already are. If we had ANYTHING to show for it as a country, it wouldn't be as bad - but we don't. Trillions have been spent fighting "poverty", and there are more people in poverty now than there were in the 60's when the Great Society programs were implemented.

Yes, it started long ago - but I would suggest it was longer than 20 years ago.

LOL... I think it's hilarious that I can lead someone around on a leash... ! If you notice, I didn't even address my last post to ..."ThinkinginWitchita"... and "POOF"... "ThinkinginWitchita" immediately attached itself to it.... LOL

Yup.... there are plenty laughing now.... "SLAP"!!! ......LOL !!!

Since there "are many ways out of this," why doesn't he enlighten us and tell us how, instead of just making more rhetoric?

Over the last 10 years, spending growth has out paced infaltion by 285%, revenue growth by 300% and the GDP growth by 336%... It's a spending problem plain and simple.

your as smart as the republicans and the tea party

I bet the farm that your family has a history of public assistance

welfare or social security, hell I bet your on food stamps

When people questioned Obama's lack of leadership skills and experience in 2008 the stock answer was "he's a community organizer".

An organizer has the ability to bring together people that agree with each other. A leader has the ability to bring together people that don't agree with each other.

If Obama cannot bring compromise and co-operation to the differing faction in Congress, then he has proven he is no leader.

My Grandparents have a history of Social Security especially when they became eligible to get it. Most people who put into Social Security get to claim it when they became the age to do so...! So, what's wrong with that right there..?

A lot of people are getting food stamps right now, so does that say that they are below others somehow...? And how was this determined, and who determined this in the first place...?

"I BET"... you wouldn't bet the "FARM" if you had to show when and where the proper ways to use.... your, you are, and you're are to be used...!

And neither political "PARTY" is superior than the other.... seems to me... you have fun at and in a "PARTY"... !!! Don't look that way to me on either side of the table... on any level...!

I just want to savor a moment of "I told you so" here.

Remember Libbies back a year or so ago when you were ramming home the Obama Care? I can't tell you how many posts I put on this site that said (paraphrasing here) "Don't do it this way"! It was not bipartisan and there was no attempt to get it there. The Prez himself looked John McCain in the eye on national TV and said "We won!"

NOW! Now when YOUR butt is in a jam. NOW, you come begging for bipartisanship? Can any one of you self serving snots possibly explain to me WHY any of us that you walked all over for bailouts, HCA, Stimulus should in any way trust you? Come on ... I am listening. Here we are at each other's throat at the Left just stuck a $1.5 Trillion entitlement bill down my throat ... totally unconcerned about bipartisanship. NOW you need our help to find $4 Trillion?? If you really wanted to foster bipartisanship, you'd do like many of us asked last year. First (because you just HAD to have your sacred cow), repeal the existing HCA because of the ill will it created THEN let's get an affordable truly bipartisan bill. That would heal some of the wound. Of course that'll never happen either.

As for the Prez ... I'd rather he say ... I need your help. At least that doesn't twist the stick that's still in my eye!!!

... Just sayin' ...

This is EXACTLY why we need a balanced budget amendment. NO it won't do crap right now but it will give BOTH Parties the inability to create a situation like this again! and Jeez, it still would need to be passed by the States! Sooner we start the sooner I'll start feeling a little safer around this bunch of extreme Lefties!

A.C........Get off it. Each comment you post is just plain sillier than the previous one. Stop wasting our time and yours.

Hi mt,

You seem fixated on bashing republicans. They deserve lots of blame, but I think you are wrong about most all you've written. NAFTA, for instance, isn't our problem. Neither is GATT. The one thing you are partially right about is that taxes on business, all other things being equal, don't matter to them. The logic is obvious--they pass along taxes, like all other costs of doing business, to you, the consumer.

But if we are going to have free trade agreements, which are good imo, we can't at the same time increase governmental regulations AND disincentivize domestic investment. How about lots of liberty instead? Let's end the business tax entirely. Let's make you, the consumer, more responsible for yourself. Let's reform our legal system so that tort law is less about social engineering and more about providing a place for the injured to seek justice. The point is that there are many things we've done and not one of them alone is responsible for our economic failure at this point. They are ALL responsible.

The right is not innocent in all of this either. Medicare Part D is the latest of the many republican assaults on your liberty and our economic freedom. But does it compare to Obamacare (which is a misnomer since Obama was a bystander for the msot part, like he is now over the debt talks, as it was debated and passed)? Of course not. The idea that Bush put us in the frying pan might be right. I don't think so, but let's assume you have a point there. But, if so, then Obama has put us into the fire.

Let's take another look at what made the USA great-wealthy, powerful, free--rather than how much your side, or mine, is to blame, and how much more free stuff paid for by someone else we can get. In other words, look at history and take what works best. This is the essence of conservatism anyhow, and it's why the vast majority of Americans oeprate their personal lives as conservatives. Why should the government operate much differently?

The CBO has reviewed several plans by Boehner and the Republicans. I haven't heard of them reviewing anything by the Senate or the White House.

This is all political posturing by the the Democrats to blame the problem that they've helped extensively to create over the last 5 years on the Republican's. Their campaign was that the Republicans drove our economy into a ditch, they are currently trying to take us over a cliff.

The House has passed at least one bill that would have solved the problem. No ammendments were proposed by the Senate, it was simply blocked. How is this working together toward compromise?

The Senate has told the House that they will kill anything sent to them by the House. It's obvious who is not doing their part to help solve the problem. In fact it appears that they are working against solving the problem. No amount of talk can cover up their actions.

Enough is enough, I'm voting against everyone of them first chance I get.

Lots of folks on here commenting that we should quit playing the "blame game", apparently not understanding that if we don't identify and discuss the cause of our economic problem we have very little ability to solve our problems.

It is clear to many of us that the Bush tax cuts did not work. Those cuts decreased our revenue at a time when spending on two Bush wars were lavishly funded and a Republican Medicare was implemented .... a plan that not only was not paid for, but it was written by and copiously benefitted the pharmaceutical industry. The Republicans would like to ignore those failures (and the blame game) in order to continue conning the voters into thinking that we have "a spending problem" only, rather than a combined spending and revenue problem.

It is obvious to even the most casual observer that the massive increase in the deficit over the past decade was caused by wars favored by conservatives, a conservative Medicare drug program, a tax rate decrease and billions of other tax loopholes created for the very wealthy. What, for example, is the public good in allowing hedge fund managers who make tens or hundreds of millions of dollars per year to pay the capital gains tax rate (15%) on all of their income. Those hedge fund operators are not creating jobs and one could easily make the argument that they do not contribute to society in any way other than paying taxes.

The correct way to solve this problem is by correctly identifying the problems and providing adult solutions to those problems. Avoiding the "blame game" is a head-in-the-sand approach.

There's "plenty of ways" to pass an operating budget too... but he couldn't get that done either within his own party.

I agree with Obama time to crack down on spending.... Cut, Cap and Balance. This plan was voted on and passed the House and is now at the Senate. It was Bipartisan. It slowly balances the budget at the end of ten years by capping and cutting over ten years. It puts the issue to bed so it doesn't come up next year during the election which seems to be Obama's main concern.

Bipartisan

Puts us on a path to a balanced budget over ten years

It has exceptions for national emergencies

Tell Reid to stop dribbling on himself and put it to a vote. Un-table it. Reid won't even let it be debated let alone be voted on. What is Obama and Reid afraid of ?

As far as I can tell Boenher has run 4 plans up the flag pole and all have been shot down by Obama. At what point will our News programs give us fair reporting and stop being " Obama bootlickers ".

The Dems have not had a budget for almost 3 years. The 2010 budget was completed by the Republicans 3 months ago and they have only had the House for 5 months. Agian, the DEMS have had super majorities, they owned the White House, The Senate and The House for 3 years and never ever produced a budget.... Those damn Republicans....

@Get Real -

Dems have done nothing? Are you kidding? What the Republicans need to agree stop the tax cuts for the wealthy - then the budget can be balanced. The reason Americans fought the british was because they were taxed beyond their ability and the rich did not have to pay taxes. Sound familiar? The Republicans and the Tea Party both protect the rich. If they continue this path, there will be an American Spring.

don

No I don't agree.

It is obvious to even the most casual observer that the massive increase in the deficit over the past decade was caused by wars favored by conservatives, a conservative Medicare drug program, a tax rate decrease and billions of other tax loopholes created for the very wealthy.

1) Look ... the wars thing ... the authorization act was bipartisan. Actually in the House, 1/3 of the Democrats voted FOR it. In the Senate 42% of the Dems voted for it. So to lay it all on the Repubs is completely revisionist. AT LEAST HE WENT TO CONGRESS ... unlike Obama in Lybia.

2) The untold story of the Medicare act was that the unfunded $400 billion was 1/2 the unfunded $800 billion the Dems wanted. So, yet again, no good bipartisan deed goes unpunished!

3) We're going to simply have to disagree on the effect of the rate decrease. An honest look at the unemployment rate shows that jobs were created at a rate equal to the growth in population so, as a result, the unemployment rate stayed around 5% for most of the Bush Presidency ... certainly the time he had a Republican House and balanced Senate.

Sorry ... don't agree

Mark

Cut, cap and balance was bipartisan only if you are foolish enough to thing that 229 Republicans and 5 Democrats meets the definition of bipartisan.

A federal balanced budget amendment is foolish. It would prevent the government from spending during severe economic crises such as we have experienced during the past 3 years. You may, and probably do, complain about the TARP and the stimulus legislation, but without that federal spending the economy would now be much more dire straits than it is.

Several states have balanced budget amendments. The solution to balancing those budgets during these tough economic times has been to play accounting games with the budget, running up deficits in spite of the mandate to balance. Read for example, the budget history in Minnesota during the eight years of the Pawlenty administration.

You could stop the "tax cuts for the wealthy" and the result would still be a pittance against this year's deficit alone ! Do you have any REAL solutions or just more talking points ?

"Any solution must be bipartisan," said Obama from the Diplomatic Room at the White House. "We're in rough agreement," said the president. "There are plenty of ways out of this mess."

Gee, Mr. President, where were you when Obamacare was bullied through the House and Senate and rammed down the throats of the American People? There was nothing Bi-Partisan about that and you were silent. (And now over a year later, 2/3rd of America are against it.) How are we going to get some relief from Obamacase? It is already harming Small Business, but that must be OK with you.....

Now you know what it is like to have the shoe on the other foot......

Considering all the increased problems your decisions have caused me and many others like me, I have a hard time feeling sorry for you..

don

It would prevent the government from spending during severe economic crises such as we have experienced during the past 3 years.

No Don, there is an emergency clause that requires Congressional approval (2/3 rds I believe).

wichita thinker/thinkinginwichita; Obama sold himself as a leader. The liberals voted for him because he said he's was a leader. He was elected to be a leader. The point is that he's proving every minute that he's not up to the job, and even liberals recognize that he can't lead - at least the ones that are honest with themselves.

Obama is not a leader. He's an organizer. He can't lead Congress away from the chasm. I can't wait until he organizes the people moving his stuff out of the White House.

Starving the Beast: Cut, Cap and Balance
Posted on July 18, 2011 by admin

The debt limit is a largely symbolic check on excessive borrowing which in the past has been frequently raised with little to no controversy. Such periodic increases are necessary to keep the government running and paying its bills, regardless of ideology.

However, Congressional Republicans are now demanding that certain conditions must be met in order to win their approval of a debt ceiling increase. They have termed their list of demands Cut, Cap and Balance, and claim it is a necessary measure in order to keep the government debt from spiraling out of control, and thus keep the country functioning.

Yet the Cut, Cap and Balance Act scheduled to reach the House floor this week is anything but necessary to keep the country functioning. Rather, it is the crown jewel, the final step of conservatives’ long-pursued “Starve the Beast” strategy to downsize government. It would radically limit the flexibility of the federal government to provide a social safety net, buttress the economy in tough times and respond to great national challenges, now and into the future.

I agree to disagree with President Obama.

We don't need a bi-partisan solution we need an un-partisan solution.

I'm for ZERO Compromise, the GOP has not offered anything that boarders onreality they want to extort our government every few months so their Masters can keep milking the Poor and Middle income, that is the only reason the would not except the larger cuts Obama wanted they maybe able to fool their sheep's or should I say flock but we are self thinkers ......

The "Tea Party" is not a political party, it is a bloc built around the idea of fiscal responsibility. These folks were elected because of their position of cutting spending and running a balanced budget, they were not elected to compromise.

Imagine, a group of elected politicians working for the broader good as opposed for their own self-interest, not to mention actually doing what they said they would do instead of saying what they need to get elected and doing the opposite. Shameful.

Compromise got us in this mess. No compromise. Not one step backward.

How the GOP Turned Tax Reform into a New Way to "Starve the Beast": ...Earlier this year, Representative Paul Ryan proposed a deficit reduction plan that, in the name of tax reform, repealed most itemized deductions. The resulting revenue would not be used to pay down the deficit, however, but to cut tax rates, mostly for the benefit of comparatively well-to-do Americans. House Republicans supported the Ryan plan unanimously, as did all but four Senate Republicans. In the current debate, some Republicans are again warming to the idea of sweeping away many special tax provisions. But again, Republicans are arguing that most—and in some cases, all—of the added revenue should go towards cutting personal and corporate tax rates, not for deficit reduction and not for achieving important social and economic objectives more efficiently and fairly.

Genuine income tax reform is very much needed. Some of the deficit-reduction commissions embraced such reforms, including taxing income from investments and from work at the same rates. But the simple repeal of all deductions, credits, and allowances, when coupled with lower tax rates, is a perversion of genuine tax reform. It is simply “starve the beast” in a new guise.

Just my way of saying, once again, that deficit reduction is not the main goal of the GOP, a point echoed here by Paul Krugman:

...consider the possibility that the anti-deficit lobby doesn’t really care about deficits. If you believe that its real agenda (not always consciously) is to dismantle the welfare state, with deficit fears as the excuse, then the seemingly bizarre positioning makes perfect sense. Democrats trying to preserve the essence of the New Deal and the Great Society are always deemed insufficiently committed, never mind the numbers, while Republicans eager to tear the whole thing down are serious people, never mind their obsession with budget-busting tax cuts.

You can’t make any sense of American political discourse if you give everyone credit for really wanting what they claim to want. My sense is that there are very few true deficit hawks; the vast majority of those who claim that title are really just using the deficit to pursue the goal of a more unequal society.

What's been surprising is that the ideology over tax increases -- they must never, ever be endorsed -- seems to be trumping the president's offer to put the very programs the right wants to eliminate on the chopping block.

In any case, the sense I have is that for the president this is, in fact, about the deficit but Republicans are fighting a different fight. And the failure to engage in the proper arena causes the president to take steps that play into the other sides hands.

The real news is the growing evidence that the political theory behind the Bush tax cuts was as wrong as the economic theory.

According to starve-the-beast doctrine, right-wing politicians can use the big deficits generated by tax cuts as an excuse to slash social insurance programs. Mr. Bush's advisers thought that it would prove especially easy to sell benefit cuts in the context of Social Security privatization because the president could pretend that a plan that sharply cut benefits would actually be good for workers.

But the theory isn't working. As soon as voters heard that privatization would involve benefit cuts, support for Social Security "reform" plunged. Another sign of the theory's falsity: across the nation, Republican governors, finding that voters really want adequate public services, are talking about tax increases.

The best bet now is that Mr. Bush will manage to make the poor suffer, but fail to make a dent in the great middle-class entitlement programs.

And the consequence of the failure of the starve-the-beast theory is a looming fiscal crisis - Mr. Greenspan isn't wrong about that. The middle class won't give up programs that are essential to its financial security; the right won't give up tax cuts that it sold on false pretenses. The only question now is when foreign investors, who have financed our deficits so far, will decide to pull the plug.

" And the consequence of the failure of the starve-the-beast theory is a looming fiscal crisis " .....march 4 2005 paul krugman,

Geez,

All the discrimination!

What about the hetero-patisan and the homo-partisan.

Look Look at ME! Such Showmanship!

"They say they do, but there is not bill in congress with the democrat plan."

False. See below.

"Until Jan., 2011, the Dems had the white house, the senate, and the house. They could have done anything they wanted. They pushed HCR through with 1 Republican vote. Not only did they not complete a budget, they didn't raise the debt ceiling when they could have done it no problem at all."

Not free and clear from the filibuster which would have held up unemployment for those least able to afford it. There were budgets for 2009 and 2010, and the debt ceiling has been raised twice already this administration. Let's TRY to be accurate here.

"Reid and the Demnocrats need to take the smoke and mirrors and BS out of their plan and realize they are only really cutting about $900B in spending."

Not according to the CBO. See below.

"Gee, Mr. President, where were you when Obamacare was bullied through the House and Senate and rammed down the throats of the American People?"

No, at least half of us wanted it then, and half of us still want it now. But you just keep repeating this. http://healthcarereform.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004168

"The CBO has reviewed several plans by Boehner and the Republicans. I haven't heard of them reviewing anything by the Senate or the White House."

Then you haven't been paying attention. Reid's plan reduces the defict almost 3X what Boehner's does. See here: http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/123xx/doc12338/SenateBudgetControlAct.pdf

MDB and Rick, as far as I am concerned, are the exact kind of people who are being pushed to the wayside, and rightly so. The only way for issues to be resolved without compromise would leave them in a country the size of a small town, which would quickly be invaded and taken over by, well, anyone.

Fantasyland won't get it done. But it will make for a nice fictional story. And fantasyland is exactly where you'd live if you decide this issue should be resolved without compromise.

Rick - don't know where you've been, but the Democrats have been milking the middle class for the past couple of years. How would you be able to tell the difference now with the Republican's plan?

Derek,

Can you tell me why all the Republican and Democrat followers have Brown Lips?

Missed a spot!

Don't look at me! He Did it! Your party doesn't make mistakes only theirs.

Too Bad Republicans and Democrats didn't stand for R&D.

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!

You people are all delusional. Do you really think any of these negotiations are going to fix our economy?

Come on, I hope you have more intelligence than that. All this will do is extend the inevitable collapse we MUST go through.

From related MSNBC articles:

The Commerce Department's first estimate of second quarter growth, released Friday, came in at a 1.3 percent rate, much lower than the consensus estimate of around 1.8 percent.

What is more appalling, the fact that our growth was 1.3% or that at best we were hoping for 1.8%? And to make it even worse:

What's more, first-quarter output was sharply revised down to a 0.4 percent pace from 1.9 percent.

At this point, with next month’s revision, this administration may end up with a negative growth rate!

This is pathetic. It doesn't matter what either useless political party, Democrat or Republican, does. If anything, by these numbers, another $2.4 TRILLION increase in our debt ceiling will just drag the uncertainty down even more.

Face it, all of the government interventions were a bust. TARP has just allowed the banks to get richer and bonuses are back to supersonic levels and lending is still stagnant. The $timulu$ was an even bigger disaster. Nearly a TRILLION Dollars and we have 9.2 unemployment, nearly 17% in under/unemployment. Quantitative Easing I and II were absolute busts other than for the Wall Street traders and speculators as interest rates were kept artificially low and inflation is misrepresented. For those of you geniuses who believe we should have had a BIGGER $timulu$, you're delusional. With a true under/unemployment of 17% this means nearly 25 MILLION Americans are jobless. if all this money only "created or saved" 2 million jobs we would need another $10 TRILLION Dollars to get unemployment down to just 6-7%. And then what?

In the 1960's we had an economy powered by 53% domestic exportable manufacturing, today it is 9%. We are an 80% consumption/service sector economy today. Show me a single country with this type of economy that has ever created the wealth, prosperity and standard of living that we are accustomed to. You can't. It doesn't exist and it never will. In order to have consumption you need money. To have money you need a job. In order to have a job you need long term stable exportable industries that will bring NEW MONEY in from abroad that we can use to restore our savings accounts and the Treasury can use to pay off our mountain of debt. We are being told we are in a "jobless recovery". What does that even mean? We are in a recoveryless recovery!

We CAN'T export entitlements. We CAN'T export social service programs. We CAN'T export road and bridge building infrastructure projects. We CAN'T export 1/6th of our economy called Obamacare. We need long term sustainable exportable manufacturing industries to return to our soil. This will never happen as we keep raising our DEBT CEILING requiring more and more of OUR tax dollars to pay it off. If any of you truly believe that either the Republicans or Democrats plan will mandate that any cuts in spending, any savings or increased tax revenues will go to repay our debt you're living in Liberal La-La Land. It has never happened and it will never happen. Raising the Debt Ceiling is just another blank check book for the criminals on both sides of the aisle to spend on their unsustainable government programs and their cronyism to all the fundraisers and campaign bundlers.

For nearly 2 years Obama spent his political capital on Obamacare. We still have no idea what's really in it as thousands of pages of regulations and rules are being written. $500 BILLION dollars in Medicare waste, fraud and abuse continues. Of course Obama said they will attack this problem, just like every president before him has. IT STILL EXISTS! The Financial Reform package is doing NOTHING for the financial industry. It is abusing the system without resistance. The housing collapse continues, NINJA loans are still being granted and mortgage robo-signings are still happening. Obama promised to review regulations. The GAO recently published a report showing $100-$200 BILLION Dollars in redundant expenses because we have hundreds of agencies and Departments that don’t know what the others are doing.

So go ahead. Bitch and complain about what Hairy Reed or Tammy Faye Boehner is doing. IT DOESN'T MATTER. We don't have the economic engine to pull us out of this Depression/Recession. The only good thing out of all of this is the fact that kids can live at home until they're 27 under their parent’s health care. They certainly won't be finding any jobs after college.

This is the shame of our incompetent and unsustainable government.

The Democrats are on the same side as The Republicans!!!

They only want to cut entitlement programs without raising taxes!!!

In other words the Republicans get want they want and the Democratic voters get SHAFTED!!!!!

The only thing that will occur is what is supposed to occur which is the debt limit is raised!!!!

If You people don't see this We truly are doomed!!!!!

Hey Unreal382.

Do you ever read anything? Raising the debt ceiling is not for current expenses. We are still trying to pay off the debts of George Bush. This is for past debt of his administration that we will be paying off for years to come.

Markmich,

Extremely well said!

The Dems are now against Obama's plan; the bad representation he has had for them---the Republicans are against each other.

Bipartisan--BS---if all of them could keep their narcissism and egos in check, we might have some kind of deal.

I appreciate all the solid information that has been given on this board by commentors---it is extremely complicated, some do not understand the outcome of what will happen if Congress is playing games with each other.

August 2nd---Will America ever be the same? Weak? No credit; no money? Will the Congress people worry about more unemployment coming down the road, and no housing for most Americans--just imagine most of us poor---with no where to go.

Another kind of 9/11 of catastrophic proportions, if this one slides by with no deal.

Yup, the failure of leadership by Obama is a very serious issue. He has played the fear card one too many times; default or not, the rating will be reduced.The manchild did it, although the media will blame the republicans.

Obama, admit it, the job's too big for you. You simply didn't have--and still don't--the experience necessary to lead this country. We're in the mess we're in because you simply don't have the requisite leadership abilities to handle a crisis that you yourself made.

Wanna fix the debt problem?

Have all political blogs require a creditcard or bank account number submitted and verified for each account and charge it $1 for every truthful post and $100 for every lie. Apply all proceeds to paying off the national debt... presto... we suddenly have a surplus in a few days.

Don,

1.) Cut, Cap and Balance does have exceptions for emergencies and crisis. I see you speak fluent Obamanese, lies and half truths

2.) All but 2 states have Balanced Budget amendments, not several. Nice Obamaism, lies and half truths.

3.) As for your bipartisan statement 5 is a lot more than Obama and his fellow comrade crack addicts ever got on Obamacare and for your Medicare gibberish, Obamacare cut a half TRILLION DOLLARS from Medicare. Only Obama could think of actually trying to pin Medicare cuts on the Republicans.

Here's a thought, if we look at the economic impact of our economic policies on African Americans and Hispanic Americans over the last 3 years and we knew nothing about which party in power and what their ethnicity was and you had to make a statement based on the economic impact alone. I would guess that ... Obama, Pelosi and Ried area Secret Chapter of the KU KLUX KLAN

These 3 Klansman have wiped out 30 years of economic gains by our Hispanic and African American communities. Well done Grand Xualted Cyclops Obama. Don't forget you pillow case and bed sheet for tonight's meeting. Reids bringing the cross and Nancy is bringing the gasoline.

Omama = The Peter Principle in action. (a)

(a) - For those who don't remember the Peter Principle, it's that a person tends to rise through an organization to their level of incompetence. In other words, "he's in over his head", and is desperately treading water. Having Nancy Pelosi make all of his legislative decisions in his first 2 years (and screwing up the economy) was certainly a tell-tale sign.

It's ironic how so many persons keep saying that President Obama is not, or hasn't done anything in office as it pertains to the deficit or taxes. When that in and of itself is farthest from the truth. The only branch of Government that haven't done their jobs is Congress, in particular the House of Representatives ( which at this time is Republican controlled and bears the brunt of the blame, since it's their House now... or do we still blame the Democrats and the former Speaker of the House, Madam Pelosi? ). All this talk about the President has never entered a bill during his presidency is ludicrous. He can't. He's not supposed to. The President of the United States cannot write bills, he can only sign them into law or veto them. What he CAN do is have someone in Congress write one for him.

Thus, all you who bellow he has done nothing as far as writing a bill, you're absolutely correct; because constitutionally speaking his hands are tied. That job belongs to Congress. So if you are going to debate the ills of the Presidency, at least have your facts straight, or get to know your constitution well enough to bring thought to your debate. Rhetoric and vitriol can carry you but so far. And the only way a bill will get passed through Congress is with compromise, not hijacking an economy.

Have a Good Day.

Roy Wilson, you should take your stand up routine on the road. Since you wanted to bring up the first two years of the Obama administration here's a chart to help illustrate the point of who screwed up the economy...

Now I can't wait for an updated version that shows how much better the Republicans have done with Boehner.

Astonished-655682

Thanks.

What astonishes me is that all these posts actually think the debt ceiling is the problem. Yes, effectively it has to be decided on one way or another. The reality, however, is that regardless of what we do, the damage is basically irreparable.

This Armageddon has been growing for 80 years. We have systematically ruined whatever free-market we could hope to achieve. Our government is over-burdened with unsustainable entitlements and social programs. This will create a need in the current and distant future for most of the money to be paid to our government to repay our debt. This will leave little if any for the private sector to expand economically. Obamacare is an unknown Leviathan of government bureaucracy. Reckless spending on hundreds of feel-good programs costing TRILLIONS of dollars such as our wars on crime, poverty, drugs and illiteracy have been abject failures.

When you combine the massive monetization ability that the Federal Reserve has with the corrupt and criminal legislative ability of the Congress, on BOTH sides of the aisle, we have no choice than to default. This combination has become the most powerful counterfeiter in history. Once we removed the collateral requirements of the gold and silver standards we were allowed to monetize based on our "word". And monetize we have. Our dollar is barely worth the paper it's printed on. Inflation and interest rates are manipulated based on economic policy rather than market forces. Deficits and debts are ignored and papered over with more fiat currency and NOW everyone is standing around with their thumbs up there a$$ asking,,,"WHAT HAPPENED"?

WE'RE BROKE, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED!

The fact that our government has allowed the strongest economy in the history of man to deteriorate to this level should be an embarrassment to every hard working American citizen. Our hard earned tax dollars have been squandered on pet projects and government programs that no one took the time to evaluate for future influences. How could Social Security not be anticipated that the average lifespan may extend 5, 10 or 20 years. Doesn't anyone in our government ask "What if"? Obviously not.

We will kick this can down the road,,,,AGAIN. Our economy will continue to crash,,,AGAIN. The politicians and all the partisan hacks on these threads will blame each other and one day we'll wake up and start talking Greek because that's what our economy will be worth.

God Bless America.

I love my country, but I fear my government.

Thinkaboutit:

There are NO lies here on this board. People are trying to get through to those who don't know the magnification of what is not happening, and what will happen after, if there is no deal.

How do you pay your bills and expenses---after some kind of deal is stricken, watch the income and other taxes pop up in all areas of your finances---and the Retireds are on a "death watch"---ask any of them, investments included for all peoples.

Retireds have the most to lose--the wealthy, they will remain wealthy, but not at $250,000 per year if it is a small business--who hires people. No employer or business owner wants to hire, or spend, including pay Health Care Costs--the future of working is very uncertain.

Long down the line, the unemployed will think this is a way of life---still collecting Unemployment Checks---Nothing is for "Free".

The correct time to deal with the debt problem is in the budget process, which occurs every year. Congress can also review any and all programs, and they should. But raising the debt ceiling is a decision to pay bills that have already been incurred. This whole process would be silly if it were not so damned harmful to the economy. This is about politics and it's about the Republicans' inability to deal with tea party members who are too inexperienced and to idealogical to govern.

don97524: I couldn't agree with you more.

don97524

This is about politics and it's about the Republicans' inability to deal with tea party members who are too inexperienced and to idealogical to govern.

And just how well has the "experience" of the status quo done for our country.

The TEA Party has not created this economic mess, the career "politicians" have.

Constitutionally limited government, fiscal responsibility and free-market principles are not ideologies, they're what this nation should be built on. We should only hope that the Democrat and Republican establishment can learn something from them.

Here is an excerpt of my email to Boehner (speaker.gov)

--------------------

Speaker Boehner,

I know you have a very tough job because you are dealing with a bunch of Tea Party people who refuse to compromise.

I am an independent voter who was super ready to elect a Republican as the next President because I AM super tired of Obama spending like crazy.

I WAS going to vote Republican. Now I am so ticked off at the Tea Party Republicans there is no way in hell that I am voting Republican.

These young whipper snappers have a super dooper bad attittude that has totally turned me off to anything they have to say.

Apparently, they did not think a Republican district in western NY, voting for a Democrat for the first time in 40 years BECAUSE the voters DID NOT LIKE RYAN'S SOCIAL SECURITY PLAN, was an issue. You even campaigned for the Republican who lost. You and I know that the DEMOCRAT WON because of THE REPUBLICAN'S STANCE ON SOCIAL SECURITY.

I paid social security taxes for 34 years and have to work 25 more years before I retire. YOU ARE NOT GOING TO STEAL THAT MONEY FROM ME. THIS IS AN IMPORTANT ISSUE TO ME AND OTHER AMERICANS.

You also know that neither Obama or the Senate will pass the bill you just managed to pass in the House.

I would rather our country go into default than to be held hostage by the damn Tea Party. You can let them all know that MOST AMERICANS AGREE WITH ME and that mandate the Republicans had will DISSIPATE over their heavy handed Tea Party tactics.

markmich: What should we learn from freshman senators of the TEA Party? That we will not allow a Democratic President to pay for bills incurred on the Republican watch? Why weren't there prerequisites to the 18 times Ronald Reagan asked for a debt ceiling increase? Or the seven times George W. Bush asked, and he was cooking the books by keeping two wars off the budget, while increasing the debt to over $10 trillion? One ( deficit reductions to the budget ) has nothing to do with the other ( that being the debt ceiling increase ). You don't hold a President ( or a country for that matter ) hostage, for bills enacted from the past. The rhetoric I keep hearing from Republicans on the Hill, is that they want to do what any ordinary citizen would do with their household bills. If that is the case, then shouldn't past bills be paid? What average American tells the bill collector when they call that, " I will not pay you until I cut my spending in the future? "

Jonathan Yard Jr.

You obviously didn't read my posts correctly. No one is saying we don't want to pay our bills due. What we are saying is we cannot continue with our current spend at any cost mentality.
I don't care if you're a Republican or Democrat. Our "establishment" politicians for decades have created this problem. Is it in our best interest to just continue because it was done in the past? I don't care what Reagan or Bush or Clinton or anyone else did. We have massive debt and we have just added another $4 Trillion dollars in leass than 3 years.
This debt ceiling WILL be raised. In 1 1/2 years our debt will be nearly $17 TRILLION Dollars. What do we do then? If you believe that ANY of these cuts or "revenues" will go to paying the off debt, you're living in Delusion Land. I guarantee you NONE of Boehner, Reeds or Obama's plans will have a mandate to use the savings or revenues to pay down the debt. It will all be spent on more unsustainable government and crony favors.
You all dwell on the Debt of $14.5 TRILLION Dollars while our unfunded liabilities, of $115 TRILLION Dollars, are growing at $6 MIILLION Dollars a minute. How do you plan on paying this off? The problem is our economy is collapsing and NO ONE wants to do what needs to be done.
We will raise the Debt Ceiling. Unfortunately our bond rating WILL BE downgraded. S&P's has told us we have to reduce our debt by at least $4 TRILLION Dollars. Neither the Tammy Faye Boehner plan nor Hairy Reed's plan comes close to this. Our interest rates will go up. The markets will collapse and we will all be standing around with our mouths open stuttering.
This can can no longer be kicked down the road. Many of us have seen this for years. I have written letters and called my Senators and Representatives for over 30 years. The day of reckoning is upon us. This isn't Obama's fault or Bush's fault, even though they have taken irresponsible spending to unimaginable heights, it's been going on for over 80 years. Especially since 1971 when we went off the gold standard and we didn't have to collateralize any spending.
We have to start cutting and stop spending. The Democrat's haven't proposed a budget for 820 days. How can you allow this? They held filibuster proof majorities for nearly 2 years. Why didn't they stop the wars? Why didn't they stop Medicare Part-D? Why didn't they raise taxes? Because they didn't want to. That's why.

Why do you think all these "crisis" bills get passed at the 11th hour? So we don't know what's in them until they're already law. Just like The Health Care Redistribution of Wealth bill. Pass it and then you'll know what's in it. No one STILL knows what's in it as thousands of laws and regulations are added. Weren't the American people supposed to have 5 days of "Sunlight Before Signing"?

LMAO! Yeah, that'll happen.

No one is saying we don't want to pay our bills due. What we are saying is we cannot continue with our current spend at any cost mentality.

You are going about it the wrong way. What you have done is tick off a lot of people WHO MAY HAVE VOTED FOR THE REPUBLICANS.

Now, this independent voter, me, is so angry that I will NEVER vote for a Republican as President.

markmich:

I understand what you are saying and I agree with you, the runaway spending has to stop. But realize that in the year 2000, Bill Clinton got the National Debt down to $18 billion dollars. I am neither Democrat nor Republican myself, but this I do understand: while we need to cut spending ferociously ( not savagely ), the federal government still needs revenue, and unlike a private business they have no true product to sell, and what products they do "sell" is the service of their sovereignty.

Thus in order to give us that service, we the people have to pay taxes. We must, if there is to be any government to stand for. If we cut just spending, there is no way for the government to grow, or for the country as a whole to expand. We'd be cutting infrastructure projects, research and the education of our future generation. So at some point, taxes or better yet, the closure of tax loopholes within the Tax code must be addressed to increase revenue. And as we can all read, that is what is not being compromised. That effort to do so doesn't take ideology, that is just common sense. Bill Clinton proved this and got the Debt down to $18 billion dollars on that same premise. Instead of having a surplus and limited spending, that money was squandered away over eight years, and with the addition of tax cuts, no true revenue was there to replace it. You don't have to go to any fancy school to realize, that if you're playing Monopoly and you don't build up Baltic Ave. with infrastructure to increase revenue ( which will require some spending ), don't expect to win the game 4 hours later with the rent at just $6 dollars.

In the government's case? While there is runaway spending, the revenue of the United States of America must increase. And on Capitol Hill, Republicans are too moot to compromise in any shape, form or fashion when it comes to revenue. Attaching that stance to the debt ceiling is ludicrous. We as a country for over 235 years has paid our bills. Even if we have to use fiat money ( and fiat money is the only way to go about it these days... ask Richard M. Nixon how the rest of the world was stealing from us because we were the biggest country in the world on a gold standard, and thus had to take the US off of it ). Lastly, runaway spending is not the reason there are not any jobs, or a deficit for that matter. For a decade, the Bush Tax Cuts were in place and there was no job creation. With no increase in jobs or even the standard of living for the middle class, there was no broadening of the tax base, which would have increased revenue, and should in part lower the deficit. To continue in the same vein will lead to the same results. With that said, you need things like Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare in place. Not savagely cut, since tax cuts have not created any jobs or growth to the middle class in over a decade. And with this recession, many are in need of these services. Why didn't just the Democrats stop these things? I think the answer is clear. Any side can bully, but compromise is the greater peace. And instead of doing so, both sides did nothing.

Yes, as a country, we have to cut our spending. But more importantly we have to pay our bills. And just as important we need to increase revenue, and not squander our surplus. Because if you do, you'll not have a government... let alone no taxes or job creation to instill or debate.

Have a Good Day.

Karen in Los Angeles

You are going about it the wrong way. What you have done is tick off a lot of people WHO MAY HAVE VOTED FOR THE REPUBLICANS.

First of all you seem to have me confused as a Republican. You're wrong.

I'm a Reagan Conservative/Constitutional Originalist and a Fiscal Libertarian. I give a rat's a$$ about Republican's, Democrat's and, unfortunately, even you Independent's. The Republicans have been taken over by Establishment GOP RINO's. Democrats have been consumed by Liberal Progressivism. And, I don't want you to take this personally, but, there is no such thing as an Independent. You may claim to be "Independent" but I doubt most of you don't vote on an open ticket, meaning you vote individually per candidate per position. You just vote straight ticket for Democrats one time then straight ticket for Republicans at another time. That's not Independent, that's flip-flopping.

Be that as it may, what has created your disdain for Republicans and an admiration for Democrat's? I'm not trying to be rude, I just like to know what it is that attracts ANYONE to these pathetic parties.

Jonathan Yard Jr.

Thus in order to give us that service, we the people have to pay taxes. We must, if there is to be any government to stand for. If we cut just spending, there is no way for the government to grow.

Jonathan, you do know what the responsibilities of the Federal government is right? By this I mean the FEDERAL CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC government. If not our discussion is moot. You, as are many Americans, have been indoctrinated in this NEED for an omnipotent government to do all these wonderful things for us. The government is not suposed to grow. The private sector is supposed to grow. It can't if the government keeps taking more and more of our hard earned tax dollars.

LOOK AROUND!

Look at our massive Debts, unemployment, housing collapse, poverty, crime, drugs, illiteracy and hundreds of other feel good attempts by government. They are ALL failures.

For nearly 100 years we have been indoctrinated with the belief that the hierarchy in our nation is,,,

Federal government > State government > We The People.

THIS IS HORRIBLY WRONG!

It should be,,,

We The People > State government > Federal government.

The Constitution was written for us, not the government. To protect us from an omnipotent totalitarian, nanny state government. This is what the Pilgrims fled from in England. Yes, taxation is necessary, but not in a never-ending expansion. Yes, we have to pay our obligatory debts, but we DO NOT need to be creating MORE OBLIGATIONS!

Entitlements are unsustainable, safety nets have become lifestyles, this is not the function or result of government.

I guarantee you any savings in government spending or tax revenues will NOT be used to decrease the debt. They will be spent. Clinton never created a surplus otherwise the Debt would have decreased from the previous year. That never happened. The surplus was just typical Washington manipulation of Public debt and Intergovernmental Holdings. this happens in every administration to make the debt look less ominous.

Unfortunately we have hit the saturation point of these deceptions. The ratings agencies are calling us out. They're calling our long overused bluff. We will NOT default but we will have our AAA rating lowered. Whether this happens this month or next year, it WILL happen. It MUST happen. Our corrupt government has created this mess and now they have been exposed as the incompetents they have been for decades. It's just too obvious to hide anymore.

Yes, we do need revenue, but not with tax increases. We need to increase the tax base. This can only happen by allowing the PRIVATE SECTOR to create long term stable domestic export manufacturing jobs. This is almost impossible today.

To make this as simple as possible I always ask this simple question.

Name one thing that isn't taxed, regulated or subsidized.

This is the ridiculous extent we have allowed the Federal government to expand.

This was NOT the intent of our Founder's and Framer's.

@Karen in LA - While normally, I'm always in agreement with you, I have to take exception to your comment about never voting for a Republican President again. You do realize it is the Democrats that are stopping the process, not the Republicans? The Republicans are at least trying to do their work. Can't say that for the Democrats or the White House. I would hope you would amend your statement to say you would only vote for a President in the future that was in line with your views, regardless of party. Personally, as a Conservative in the Midwest, I'm incredibly concerned with the path our Country is on. We are in dangerous territory, yet, there is a portion of the country who are blindly following those who are pushing us further down that path. You think they would have learned from all those ordinary Americans who bought everything right now, as they thought they deserved "the American Dream" right now. Overreaching their income, their house of cards toppled, and many lost everything. Now we have a govt. doing the exact same thing, yet that is OK? It's not. We have a party who wants that to stop, yet they are being maligned because they want fiscally responsibility. Isn't it time to stop compromising? We didn't get to compromise when it came to Obamacare, and now we are stuck with a plan that is on it's way to destroying the Employer sponsored Health care plans in America, and there won't be anything as good to make up for the loss come 2014. (Maybe they are figuring out how bad this bill is since they're writing thousands of pages more to explain the first 2000 pages, also delaying the implementation of the bill.)

willowbrook,

I don't know how you feel but the Tea Party Republicans want to steal my 34 years of social security contributions without any equitable trade.

That Ryan said I am too young (I'm 50) to participate in the plan I've been paying into for 34 years.

A Republican stronghold in western New York voted for a Democrat for the first time in 40 years for the same reason. The Republican (who Boehner campaigned for) agreed with the Ryan plan. The voters in that district do not like the Ryan plan (either do I).

Not to mention, I am still very angry about the Bush tax cuts for : companies that do not provide jobs to Americans in the United States and the attempt to eliminate the estate tax.

So many people argue that the estate tax is taxing hard earned money. NO WAY. The MAJOR estates were helped along by the U.S. Government - we're talking Astor and Vanderbilt.

The Republicans lost sight of an interest group they need to service if they want to be elected to President - THE INDEPENDENTS AND MODERATES WHO ARE SUPER ANNOYED WITH RADICALS.

I despise extremes on either side which is why I am annoyed with Obama too.

It is clear however, that the Reid plan has significant cuts and it does not touch social security or medicare. That is why REPUBLICAN O'Connell is working on it. If your parents were on social security, you would be singing a different tune, unless however, your parents are super wealthy and don't need social security.

As it is, I am glad that I was working on a huge extracurricular project so I can give my mother the money if she needs it (as in what happens if there is no debt limit deal?).

Maybe I was reactional when I said I will never vote for a Republican but I really get annoyed too with these last minute deals. I am such a pro-active person on the job that I am ticked that they left something so important to the last freaking minute. That is NOT how to do it.

Have they even funded the FAA yet? Those people are out of work for the most part. All of them are ticking me off, and the group ticking me off the most are the TEA PARTY REPUBLICANS.

I think Boehner's back is against the wall with them and that he is too much of a wimp to tell those jerks that "getting their azzes in line" means COMPROMISING when Americans believe something is important - like social security.

markmich

YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT ME.

Last year sometime, a NV seed featured a political orientation test. I took it. I am as moderate as they come as my views were smack dab in the middle of that chart. I did not skew anyway but center.

I vote for Republicans and Democrats (in California elections). I voted for Meg Whitman and Carly Fiorina and would love to recall Jerry Brown.

I would have voted for the Republican Presidential candidate UNTIL this fiasco and provided that candidate was not a religious zealot like Michelle Bachmann.

If the Reps ran a religious person, I would have written in Ron Paul. There is a place for libertarians.

BUT AGAIN, I do not want extremists in charge at all. Ron Paul and I bantered on Newsvine sometime ago. He posted an article about legislation he sponsored and I told him that I do believe in some taxes, PARTICULARLY SOCIAL SECURITY since I've been paying for it for 34 years and still have to work for 25 years.

I SUGGEST THAT YOU STICK TO ANALYZING YOURSELF AND NOT DETERMINE OTHER'S POLITICAL ORIENTATION.

My comment to you (that you commented on) was to remind you of Henry Kissinger's VERY succesful technique: zero sum game. That is THE ONLY WAY negotiations STICK.

markmich: We've allowed the Private Sector to do just what you've said, for the past eight years. Where are the jobs? There has been no tax increase for a decade. Where are the jobs? In that same decade, most of the American jobs have been outsourced to foreign countries. We've even bailed out a few institutions in the hopes that they would hire and/or loan money, instead they gave themselves bonuses and retreats. Where are the jobs? Some corporations are getting $0 taxes. Which company should we allow to build the country's infrastructure and just how or who is going to implement or pay for it? Tax bases have been broadened, they were just not broadened in this country. Where are the jobs? While I agree to an extent that the private sectors should be allowed to create jobs, the only incentive for them doing so, shouldn't be just tax breaks and loopholes. It doesn't work, in and of itself.

Because when one does just allow or leave that only to the Private Sector, we have the guise of "Uncle Tom's Cabin " all over again. Hence the need for governmental regulation and growth. If the laws that are legislated are to only shrink the one force that would police the people from themselves, we cut off the nose to spite the face. There wouldn't be a need for a minimum wage. Companies wouldn't have to provide benefits. Or vacation to their employees. Eight hour work weeks turn into 10, 12 etc.. And from where I sit, I see that happening again, already.

The government like anything else will always need new obligations, because of the cost of living, inflation, etc.. Entitlement Programs work both ways. While it is easy to say, let's play" Soylent Green" with the elderly, or take a stark look at lower income families that abuse welfare programs, what about the tax loopholes that are taken advantage by the richer of the two as well? That is why there needs to be a balanced approach to the breath of government. Stop paying farmer's not to grow. Stop forcing lower income families to live of entitlement programs, we need to do that. But we also need to stop giving specific breaks and loopholes to specific industries, individuals and companies, who find it mete to take their profits and sit on it, instead of broaden the American tax base as everyone espouses is supposed to happen because of it, but has yet to be seen within the last ten years .

I know what government has to do. It doesn't need to shrink to oblivion nor outgrow the people. But if countries like Australia can provide the same entitlements and obligations to both individuals as well to the Private Sector, if Canada can make their dollar stronger than ours in less than ten years and still provide entitlements to their populace. If Norway can do it, the Netherlands ( and still have their currency tied to a gold standard ), surely the Greatest country on earth can as well. But it takes a centrist view and by that I mean compromise by both sides of the spectrum. What we have going in our government right now are fraternities that can't come to a common ground, until the week before Christmas. And the only thing they can agree upon at that time, is to give themselves a raise.

By the way, I've not been indoctrinated in the need of anything other than the dismissal of Nepotism within this country.

Have a Good Day.

Other than corporate welfare that is. I mean, why should people earning $29 billion per year by investing other people's money into schemes that only they have access to be taxed like people who actually work for a living?

Compromise suggest you are willing to PASS something into law and propose some legislation

Only ONE side - the House has proposed and passed anything in 6 months

Obama 2011 Budget: voted down 97-0 in the Senate

Ryan Budget: voted down by a handfull of votes in the Senate

House Cut/Cap/Balance: tabled to avoid a vote in the Senate

BLAME / ELECTION POLITICS / $2.5 TRILLION CEILING INCREASE / HISTORIC

I hope our congress can put aside their childish differences and do what they all know is necessary to pass this bill to raise the ceiling on the National debt. This is not a time to be afraid that any of them will not be re-elected in the future. Put politics aside and do what is right for the future of our country and it's citizens who put them in office. Take their pay, benefits, and perks away from them as would happen to millions of the poor and especially Seniors who depend heavily on SS as their main source of income. It is also necessary to raise taxes on the most wealthy in this country. I can only imagine what it must be like to have their kind of income. Mine is about @1000 a month. I have a mortgage payment plus all the necessities-heat,telephone, lights,water etc. I have used about all my savings to pay for Doctors and medications. PLEASE don't let the citizens of this great country down and do what is the right thing for the country and not for yourselves. Thank You

Sadly, our education sucks, so if we got the government out of the way, and take it back to the community level, we may have a chance.

Sadly, every time these parties compromise, the tax payer gets screwed.

Sadly, Clinton, Bush and Obama all brought the very people responsible for the bubble into key positions of their administration, so that speaks volumes to where their priorities lie. With the big money, and the greedy, people who only look out for themselves.

I am done paying the way for these elitists. This government is to big to succeed, period. Cut the spending, learn to budget, live within your means. Not rocket science.

Why should people earning $29 million a year pay for your needs?

The wealthy in this country can certainly pay more taxes - but so can the roughly 50% of the people in the workforce who pay NO income tax at all.

How about this? EVERYONE pays at least 1%, close the loopholes and the wealthy pay 20%? The top quintile already pays about 70% of ALL Federal taxes, with the top 1% paying about 30%.

http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/tax/2010/tax_liability_shares.pdf

The wealthy aren't necessarily the problem, the recipient class who thinks they're entitled to someone elses money is the problem. Everyone needs some skin in the game, no matter how small.

Where are all the jobs the Republicans promised. I remember them saying, "yes, if we make spending cuts the economy will be much better and we will create jobs" and "yes, tax cuts create jobs". Well....guess what the economy is slowing down since the Republicans took the house and WE HAVE NO JOBS !!!!!

Because it is the right thing to do, especially for people who have the audacity to call themselves compassionate conservatives.

It's the American way. You do well. You give back a little.

Stop the greed.

Rocco,

I don't think anyone is arguing against people above the poverty line paying taxes. But what people like me are against is continuing to throw good money after bad. I'm fine with my taxes going up as long as I have some belief that the money will be well spent.

For me that means I want to see real cuts before I'll agree to tax increases. By "real cuts" I mean hundreds of billions/year. I don't want to tank the economy so I'm ok with most of the cuts being in future years and potentially tied to GDP growth - but there needs to be real safeguards in place to make sure the cuts happen. Without these safeguards, I assume Washington will do what it's historically done - spend more than the increase in tax revenues - which is just going to make the problem worse in a few years.

pragmatic: Nice Fox numbers, how about the rest of the numbers they leave out so that you guys can be afraid of reality?

That top 1% who pay 30% of the taxes? They control over 90% of the money. So they are paying less than 1/3 of their share.

Those 50% who pay no taxes? Most are either unemployed or working minimum wage jobs and raising 5 little deductions. How about those who make billions and pay no taxes? I don't see you having a problem with GE.

Because it is the right thing to do, especially for people who have the audacity to call themselves compassionate conservatives.

Forcefully taking from one person to give to another for ANY reason, is not 'the right thing to do'. In fact, it's called stealing, and it's wrong. Is this really the legacy you want to leave for future generations?

It's the American way. You do well. You give back a little.

You'd better do some homework, and you'll quickly learn that the top 10% of wage earners do give back, but it's actually a LOT more than their 'fair share'.

The American Way has never been about wealth redistribution. Take a basic class in economics and you'll learn quickly that wealth is not 'distributed' - it is Earned.. The American Way is to work hard, make good choices, build a fortune and have it Protected from the dumb masses who chose to go the opposite route.

Stop the greed.

Please define the word "Greed" for me. Surely it can't mean someone simply wanting to enjoy the fruits of their own labors, even after paying a sufficient amount for their share of legitimate functions of government.

They're clever and warm and fuzzy sounding cliches, until you begin to understand the deeper meanings... Your government has gotten so big and so bloated... ask your elected Representatives why OUR TAX DOLLARS are going to ReBuild Mosques in other countries?? So big and so bloated that it can no longer sustain itself on the money it takes in.

Not just one party - but BOTH parties have lead to your ruin.

I agree with Rocco. This country is just pathetic; listen to yourselves. "My party this; YOU illiterate democrat; YOU money grubbing republican." Really? That's how you save a country? Like perpetual teenagers? -.-

Rocco, who should we give back to? The people with three TVs, cable, high-speed internet, separate freezers, late-model cars, and high-end stereo equipment? That's the bulk of America's 'poor' today. Why are they so poor? Because WE pay for all their needs while they blow their money on desires. Oh, and let's not forget all the drug money that comes from welfare.

I make $60K a year and most of the 'poor' have more luxuries than I do. Why? Because I'm preparing for the future while they live in the now. On MY dime!

Eric this economy will grind to a halt with higher taxes and $4.00 gas sucking any life blood we had out of it.

Get this government out of the way and let real Americans find solutions.

Drill here, drill now and put people to work.

Ok This is an open invite to all the liberals above, Eric Rocco ok all of you. Put your money where your mouth is. Do as I did and still do every month. Go to the IRS.gov site and with your SSN create an account. Then at the end of the month send the Gov. a donation direct to the General fund. I sent $600 last month and between $300 and $600 since 2009. Come on really back up your words! I know you can do it!

The issue here is "tea for brains"

PragmaticToAFault
Why is it the right thing to do, to have the government decide arbitrarily that one group of people should bear the financial burden for people that won't or can't bear it for themselves?

This country was NOT founded on stealing from one group and giving it to the others.

However, I specifically said - the wealthy CAN and SHOULD pay a higher percentage. Government enforced charity is not charity, it's theft.

You're kidding, right??? I could hardly contain my laughter on the middle sentence. That is exactly what this country was founded on! (theft of nation from Native Americans, slavery, homestead act, etc.) The whole point of a progressive tax system is that people who have less have a smaller ability to pay based on what they need to just get by. People who have more money do not need to spend everything they have and it is why they are taxed at a higher percentage rate past various cut-offs. However, our tax system also allows people with more income many opportunities to reduce or eliminate their tax burden altogether. And here we are. But the attitude of you and many other people on this site illustrates why there is no such thing as a temporary tax cut...People want all of the benefit and none of the costs.

You're it. No, you're it. You're it. You're it...

Rocco, who should we give back to? The people with three TVs, cable, high-speed internet, separate freezers, late-model cars, and high-end stereo equipment? That's the bulk of America's 'poor' today.

The above comment is at the heart of the problem that we as a nation have, because it is entirely untrue. Anyone who truly believes that the bulk of America's poor are like the above, clearly has not spent enough time with America's poor. Sure, there are some on welfare / considered poor who are just like described above. But, the bulk of America's poor are not like this. The Bulk of America's poor are the homeless, those living in shelters, the beaten, battered, abused, and the orphaned. They are the people in who survive without a voice and in the dark shadows of our country.

I suspect that if I put most of Congress in the shoes of America's poor for a week, their outlook on a lot of things would change greatly. Particularly those who claim to walk on the side of conservative christian values and yet are the farest from being anything like Mother Theresa.

jaikw.......come to Detroit where I live. I will show you street after street where 2nd and 3rd generation welfare families live. With nice to great cars and big screen tvs. And blinged out like its their job. They get 50% on the dollar to buy other stuff.

It continually amazes me that people who scream "TAXED ENOUGH ALREADY" are so offended by paying any taxes at all. The whole idea is that we pay for our local, state, and national representation, our national defense, our roads and schools and libraries and police and fire protection. We pay for our retirement, for the net that might help us if we become disabled and unable to work -- without which we would become a drag on our society. We pay taxes to create a society that works for us.

C. Smith, where have you been lately? That "welfare queen" class warfare is pretty passe. The working poor are being evicted as banks take over their homes, or living in homes worth less than a quarter of what they paid for them, through machinations of corporate greed and government complicity. If they DO have new cars, freezers, TV -- at least they're consuming, which is what drives the economy, while the wealthy hoard cash in offshore accounts or use it to buy companies & fire workers to make short-term profits.

What the hell do you people want? Even Jesus said it -- "There will be poor always." Why do you think it's better to have the taxpayer cover emergency medical costs rather than preventative health care costs, build ten new jails for every new school, blame the victims of crime for their need of protection? Why do you so hate your fellow Americans that you can only excoriate their media-induced buying, while blind to the greed of private corporations defending their bottom line at the cost of billions spent to push their agenda on that same media? (And the media and the politicians are the only ones who benefit from those billions.)

I wasn't aware that the CBO was run by Fox.

The link I provided is to a CBO analysis.

Left wingers, keep it up. Just keep up the hate and name calling. Your true colors will buy your irrelevance, when your positions are exposed for what they are - greed and jealousy for someone elses good fortune.

As for you, Jason. Perhaps you should read our founding documents, and point out to me the part that says that the successful shall pay for the lazy. And this is where you all take a sharp left turn into the abyss: you will have to look long and hard for ANYONE in this country - conservative, liberal or otherwise - that opposes a hand up to those in need, or a basic level of support for people who cannot support themselves.

What ALL people should object to is the handouts to people that WON'T meet their own needs, and that includes corporate welfare.

Question for you all: The Democrats had control of both houses of Congress since '07, and the White House since '09.

During those years, exactly what have THEY done to end corporate welfare, or deal with tax inequities?

Answer: NOTHING.

jollyoldsoul1.... I know of what you speak and conceded to such in my post. However, that said, go down to the streets or under the bridges where the homeless( both individual and families) live in cardboard boxes and sleep on benches in the park. Go see a socialworker dealing with the fostercare situations of our country. Ride along with Meals on Wheels. Certainly there are many taking advantage of the system, but the BULK of the poor certainly are not.

Pragmatic - that is exactly my point. It all started 20+ years ago. Major changes must be done like changes to NAFTA. And all repubs do this days is try to repeal, prevent, block anything that is proposed. Where are their propositions?

And you don't have to see it all in black-and-white. People that don't like repubs behaving are not necessarily democrats.

CutTaxesNoMilitary

Why do we continually hear about "both sides" not comprosmising. Just what EXACTLY have the Democrats NOT caved in on?

I fear the future for my grandchildren: No Eductaion. No infrastructure. War. No Healthcare. No hope

_______________________________________________________________

But you would like your grandchildren to be in debt up to their ears from the day they are born!!!!!!!! Come on people wake up and get the government out of your life.

THIS IS WELL WORTH THE TIME TO READ
In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of
Edinborough, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some
2,000 years prior:
"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a
permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until
the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts
from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes
for
the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury,
with
the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal
policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."
"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning
of
history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations
always progressed through the following sequence:
From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage."

The Democrats have not come forward with a plan to reduce or eliminate SS, Medicare, Medicaid. The Democrats backed Healthcare Reform that we do not need nor want, but will cost us billions - repeal it! Start here and you will go along way with compromise!

The top quintile already pays about 70% of ALL Federal taxes, with the top 1% paying about 30%.

Prag, you had me up 'til here. I agreed with much of what you had to say today, but the top 1% has well over 90% of the money. And it is their government, not ours. I mean they seem to think they are in charge but they do NOT represent us. So let them either pay for their own socialist agenda, or stop stealing our jobs. A2

Exactly right!

The republicans DESTROY everything they're in control of and make enormous profits for the few while doing it, and the democrats just let them do it because they're weak, spinless cowards!!!

Both are complicit in the destruction of America and both have earned full time positions in hell!!!

Thinkinginwichita;

How was it that Obama referred to himself in 2008 when it was pointed out he had no leadership skills or experience.? His spin doctors said he was "an organizer". Well, this is the difference between an organizer and a leader. An organizer can bring together people who agree. A Leader brings together people that disagree.

If Obama can't bring people together who disagree then he is no leader.

sidneyhop-1120722

Exactly right!

The republicans DESTROY everything they're in control of and make enormous profits for the few while doing it, and the democrats just let them do it because they're weak, spinless cowards!!!

______________________________________________________________

So President Obama, Al Gore, President Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Barbara Boxer and the list goes on and on. You are saying they are not verrrrrry wealthy but are also spineless cowards.

Getting rid of the federal goverment in heath care, and education does not mean no education or heatlh care. It means you put that power back into state and local hands, where you has an indvidual can decide what's right for your community. The Department of Education has flush billions down the toilet while our education system and test scores haven't improved one bit. Time for it too go away.

MT, Republicans are saying no because the ideas that are being presented are radical left wing ideas. If there is someone spouting ideas, or theories that the other does not agree with, then they should stand up and say NO! That is a lot better than having a politician that just roles over... As for your clip from a Nobel Economist, you do know that that is a fake award right? Nobel in his will strictly said that there should never be an award for Economics...he said that theory should not been awarded because the answer could evolve to prove itself wrong...

Robin, what is your solution, then? Confiscate the income of the wealthy? According to various calculations I've seen, that would cover about half a year's worth of government spending at its current levels. Then what?

I agree, the wealthy have way too much influence in Washington. The answer to that is not to confiscate their wealth, but to make their wealth ineffectual in influencing government policy. Remove ALL sources of campaign funding beyond public funding. While it makes me uncomfortable to give the government yet anothe way to waste our money, I think we'ld make that money back hundredfold or more when croney legislation ends as a result.

I'm not going to blame the wealthy for buying their way into more wealth.

I blame the government for allowing them to do it. We didn't elect the wealthy to represent us, we elected the government - who has failed us, in a singularly bi-partisan way.

The republican party is revealing its mutated layers of designed governance of our republic. It is a bejeweled humbug of elegant thievery, displayed midst the splendid rantings of ineffectual dribble, and directed toward the foundations and grand schemes of antiquitized bedlam. Seldom in our history have we witnessed the spectacle of orgainized chaos on such a grand scale. The old kings and priests of past serfdom are vindicated.

"I fear the future for my grandchildren: No Eductaion. No infrastructure. War. No Healthcare. No hope."

So where is it stated that the Government is responsible for these things for your grandchild and not you or your children for working to provide it for them?

No, instead, you post her and expect the government to tax me to pay for your lack of responsibility.

If you really wanted to fix this, than take responsibility for your own actions and get a job so you can provide these for your grandchildren. Stop living (and expecting to live) on everyone else.

"Robin, what is your solution, then? Confiscate the income of the wealthy? According to various calculations I've seen, that would cover about half a year's worth of government spending at its current levels. Then what?"

Make them pay more taxes and give breaks to people and organizations that create jobs. If they want to pay less taxes then hire people. Extending taxes breaks for people that do not need them means more money sitting in a bank account. Small businesses create jobs, large corporations cut them and outsource to countries that stand for the opposite of American values. Small businesses innovate, large ones limit and manage innovation until they are forced to really innovate.

"I'm not going to blame the wealthy for buying their way into more wealth.

I blame the government for allowing them to do it. We didn't elect the wealthy to represent us, we elected the government - who has failed us, in a singularly bi-partisan way."

The government is ruled by the wealthy. And there are a lot of wealthy folks in government. Corporations are now people and money is now free speech and that is the proof. Two parties both paid off and no room for more because other political organizations they are not eligible for or do not have the means to raise money. And being bi-partisan in many cases is actually partisan because it keeps the game controlled. Coke and Pepsi don't have sales on the same week but they are still competing, it is just bad for business for everyone to keep undercutting each other because no one will be able to make money.

If he had half the leadership that he promised...a deal would have been signed already...

Wow! What a string of posts to an absurd original post. The President and Harry Reid haven't compromized on a thing. They have avoided votes, not put out an actual plan, and condemed any actual plan before they even saw anydetails of it.

This is like the last election cycle when the Democrats called for Civility in debates when they were the only ones name-calling, then proceeded to double the amount of name-calling they were doing.

The Republicans wanted to ge back to 2005 pr2006 spending levels , which would have made a massive dent in the deficit without sacrificing any essential programs, but the Deal now is locking in spending at last years levels after Obama-Pelosi-Reid had increased Federal spending by 25%. thus locking in all that waste and graft.

THAT is a cave or "Compromise". Saying we want to keep spending at these levels until the National Debt is $25 trillion isn't.

That top 1% who pay 30% of the taxes? They control over 90% of the money. So they are paying less than 1/3 of their share.

And your point is? The United States taxes income. The vast majority of income tax is already paid by those with higher income - as frequently noted, almost half the nation pays none while a small handful pays nearly all. You're talking about wealth. Wealth is the difference between assets and liabilities, and a significant part, especially for the most wealthy, consists of assets that are no longer taxable income. Do you even understand that there's a difference between income and wealth?

If you want to rally around a wealth tax, do so. But don't attack productive earners with abusive income tax because you hate old money and you're so completely uninformed that you think income tax will hurt "rich people."

yes

You are right.

The Dems are just playing politics and the Country is suffering.

Amazing that you can state that while in the same breath asking for the deadline to pass with no resolution.

Tell me, were you dropped on your head as a child? Or did you just ingest an inordinate amount of paint chips?

I don't care which bill passes, but these two parties playing chicken with each other while the normal people of this country stand in the middle is just ludicrous.

Hacker, boy do you have your head in the sand. You think this "country is suffering", dude you just wait and see suffering when this boat sinks. Doing what you profess would send mortgage interests rates at least 2% points higher immediatly, so the guy who was going to buy your house now can't because his payment just went up $350 a month. The folks with a "flexible" rate mortgage are toast, the stock market will drop another 1000 points, costing IRA and 401k holders BILLIONS. Keep up the smart thinking, your living in a complete fantasy world.

Listen I'm ALL about reducing the debt in this country, but shutting it down has HUGE consequences, and it very well may throw us into a depression, and that is a fact not fiction. You obviously do not understand the global economy at all. When our credit rating falls we will look like Greece dude.

That's good, the last time the Republicans did this I lost 40% of my 401k. So yes, let's default.

In terms of compromising, the only ones doing so are the democrats.

The American people want compromise......

You rode the little yellow bus to school didn't you??

Actaully it's impeached not inpeached. And no he shouldn't.

hackerware

The true republicans realize that we might not make it through a default without a new Tea Party Recession, America can not take anymore unemployment and recession. The people "standing their ground" are the Tea Party pukes. They are holding America Hostage to their ideology and wants, PERIOD.

Their first big term in office and they are going to get full credit for crashing the economy and putting us farther back into a recession. If we do default and people do not get paid their monthly checks, then they will not be spending money which will result in more people losing their jobs, and so on and so on. Talk about trickle down affect! Hold on folks this one might hurt badly.

doofus - - what is the cost of a 5% increase in the interest rate on $14.5 Trillion

$725 BILLION....compounding monthly assuming DOWNGRADE in AAA Rating

What does a 5% increase in the Consumer Interest Rates cost in reduced CONSUMER DEMAND for goods & services

JOBS / JOBS / JOBS /JOBS

WHO WINS.......banks, lending institutions, FOREIGN INVESTORS

Yea.....Eric...... there is this thing called learning from your mistakes. In 2007 I moved all my investments to RBC (Royal Banc of Canada) everythings up 16 to 22% You can do it, its not that difficult!

these comments are the exact reason why republicans fail. This person is so close minded that he cant even consider the FACT that his party is full of obstructionist, umcompromising, elitists that just because they have theirs, screw everyone else. Keep up this line of thinking and we will end up with 1% exceedingly rich and 99% destitute. Hows that for hope.

Obama should be impeached? Who was the war criminal that started the war in Iraq by lying to Congress, your beloved Bush. Who gave away 300 Billon the same year in tax cut to the rich your beloved Bush. How many American men died because of this lying dog how much money was spent in the mess he started and we could not just walk away from. How was in office when the housing scheme collapsed as planned. Oh yes, Clinton passed that bill and it took 8 years for you Republican’s to figure a way to game it. No end it as McCain wanted.

That criminal, Bush and his vice president Chaney (who made millions and probably billions of this war) they should be tried in congress for treason and then in front of the world court for crimes against humanity. You know all the civilians in Iraq that were killed by greedy Republican subcontractors. Is in not your position that people pay what they owe. Did I forget to mention our expendable American soldiers.

Welfare has been mentioned $420 Billion in all. That’s what the Republican’s refuse to ante up for the good of the Republic. The welfare you want is for the Rich and the Corporations.

Job Creation: Who stopped the stimulus for unemployment so as to prime the economic pump? Who stopped the stimulus for small business so as to prime the economic pump?

You are another bull@!$%# republican moron.

It might be better just to move to Canada, at least I could get my 401k up and get better and more affordable health care.

Stupid politicking. John Boener is working feverishly to create a bill that can garner enough support from the "brain-trust" so that it can be killed in the Senate so that the GOP can pass the buck and act like they're trying to come up with solutions.

Last I checked, we have a two party system with a representative republic, the way that things are "supposed" to get done is when both parties can come to the table and reach an agreement. That type of comprising-process cannot happen when you have a leadership telling you that you need to reject everything your "opponent" puts forward as a courtesy to your senior electorate!

Time to place term limits on Senators and Congress-critters! I'm sick and tired of these Jr. vs. Sr. deal-making and BS when its the American public that suffers.

There are more registered independent and decline to state voters now than there have been in most times of US history! There is a vast and increasingly growing group of people that are fed up with both parties, but are educated/sensible enough to understand that the Tea Party doesn't know what it's doing other than being irrationally angry and frothing at the mouth.

In general, the US is going to pass an increase, that I have no doubt.

The GOP needs to agree to something, because all of their Wall Street and Govt' Contractor lobbyists are going to be ticked if Uncle Sam isn't able to pay them on time! At the same time, the blue haired voters of the GOP will be thrilled when they don't get their SSI-check in the mail and government really does get out of their Medicare.

The GOP is about to really let the fit hit the shan if they alienate the portion of their party that acts as the purse for their campaigns.

I see one of three things happening:

1. Unlikely: Tea Party acquiesces and Boener's restraints get loosened enough so he can both save-face within the GOP and propose a bill that won't get creamed in the Senate
2. Relatively likely: Tea Party obstructs and the GOP in House and Senate are unable to come to terms with any sort of rational debt limit increase bill that isn't also tied with ridiculous spending cuts. Geitner proposes a few temporary stop-gaps to pay the most important bills (the ones that effect our international credit rating) and or the SCOTUS intervenes and applies Constitution Article VI, and requires that Congress immediately draft a bill to satisfy paying the outstanding debts. Either case, the GOP will pay for it dearly in the 2012 cycle (if their bed hasn't already been made).
3. Most Likely: Tea Party obstructs and Boener is dragged into pushing a still-born-bill into the Senate where it'll be destroyed (Tea Party loses major credibility and the wealthy GOP constituents start putting pressure to push the Tea Party out into the cold, probably evidenced during the primaries and how GOP lobbyists turn Sr.'s against Jr. TeaPartiers). After stall after stall, Congress proposes a slapped together bill to extend the debt ceiling just enough to be a bone on contention in the 2012 race. The bill is made and held together with duct-tape and bubblegum and Obama ratifies it while the nation mourns its collective stupidity of having elected such idiots. Expect the market to react poorly to the next debt-limit talks in 2012.

That's my take...any other scenarios seem realistic?

Sally

A.C-1213193

I personally like that it is moderated. The people that just ride in and start stuff by simple name calling and do not discuss or even try to add anything constructive ruin the opportunity for people to actually express their views. You might not agree with their views or like what they said but everyone wants a chance to come in and enjoy the opportunity without being beat up for it. It's that beating each other up and calling each other names that makes our politicians think that is what we want them to act like, school yard brats and bully's. Happy Friday!

@Sally - Thank you for monitoring the way you are because it is very discouraging having some of the people on this blog allowed to be so belligerent, rude, and obnoxious. Keep up the good work! It's about time Newsvine had someone doing their job.

Seriously? No . . . really -- I'm starting to see the advisability of a fourth option that could fall between the likelihoods of your first two. Obama could unilaterally institute the 14th amendment option.

I know that it would have costs, but I'm not seeing how an investor, particularly a foreign investor, could ever again trust the full faith and credit of the US, so long as there is the suggestion that our debts might be repudiated in the name of internal political posturing. The only way I see to reassure financial markets that it wouldn't happen again, is to ensure that it can't happen again by disavowing the practice of formally considering the option of reneging on our debts. However, I fear we've crossed another threshold like the one in 2001. Before that it was unthinkable that we could be attacked significantly on American soil. Before this crisis, it was unthinkable that the US might choose not to pay its debts.

LIke the grandfather said to his grandson after the young boy confessed to telling him a lie: "It's not that I can't forgive you. It's just that I can never again trust you the way I did this morning.""

hackerware and TP crazies need to turn down the TV and radio and read this now (mostly small words and short enough to hold your attention):

Debt Limit: Myth vs. Fact

www.treasury.gov/initiatives/Pages/debtlimit.aspx

Then call the crazy TPers you voted for and tell them to stop this destructive insanity

Hackerware,

From your statement you are either:

1) A corp big-wig who's company is rolling it it due to the tax loopholes. You of course will get your dream bonus at taxpayers expense.

2) Someone making over $250,000 a year.

3) Unintelligent, follower. Not bright enough to know there's more than one TV station than just Foxed UP News.

Sad moron,

I'm sure that Timothy's boss had nothing to do with what you find on a TREASURY Department web site. Socialists are trying to run the supply side of a Capitalist system. DO you think they'll tell tthe truth of how they are trying to crash the whole country.

They had a term for people like you during Lemin's day, "Useful Idiot."

Kevin,

I would think any American would be happy for a U.S. business to do well. That is when they hire people, not when they are being strangled by their government. I don't know why you also seem to think that people are either millionaires or work for minimum wage. When old people retire they live off investments, just like the millionaires you hate. OSme millionaires got that way by doing manual labor and building acompany, but you hate them just the same

I don't know why every left-brained wingnut on here is so against us not spending more than we take in, nor do they understand that businesses don't PAY taxes they COLLOCT them from their customers or employees in the form or higher prices or lower wages.

I also note that most are like you, not smart enough to know that they don't know anything, but not shamed enough by their lack of common sense to keep quiet until they can understand what the real adults are talking about.

"I would think any American would be happy for a U.S. business to do well. That is when they hire people, not when they are being strangled by their government."

You'd think so, but that's not what has happened. US businesses are sitting on almost 2T in cash. See here:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703766704576009501161973480-search.html

I don't know why every left-brained wingnut on here is so against us not spending more than we take in, nor do they understand that businesses don't PAY taxes they COLLOCT them from their customers or employees in the form or higher prices or lower wages.

So you support axing medicare/medicaid and the military?

Those are the two biggest recipients of US spending.

I don't suggest doing either, but if you're really all about spending less than taking in, there ya go.

The great "present voter" is in charge.

It is not his job to present a plan, but to sign it. It is Congress's job to present the bills and pass them along to the President.

But when congress is incapable of any action other than purely partisan politics they have to blame the president or they'll look as weak and foolish as they in truth are.

James, I didn't realize Orrin Hatch was in charge?

It is not the President's leadership that is in question here. Not by a long shot.

This legislation- the Congress writes and passes legislation, not the President.

If there is a lack of leadership it is Boehner's inability to get the TP thugs to vote for his bill and his refusal to compromise to create a bill that House Democrats will agree to.

What more can Obama do. He's had the leaders in his office A LOT !!!

He has demonstrated leadership, there is nobody following because they are all focused on "MAKING OBAMA A ONE TERM PRESIDENT".

So much for the good of the country. Let's let the economy fully fail in an attempt to get back full Republican control.

Only Congress can raise the debt ceiling....NOT the Prez. At least he and Reid are calling for compromise and trying to bring both sides to the table but then you have Loser McConnell saying that he prefers to ONLY work w/ his party....and then all the other GOPigs fall in line...go figure!

If the US defaults, it's NO thanks to the knee locking, posturing, politicizing, party of "NO" and the radical teabaggers who need to realize that compromise IS part of the job description...

In fact, their answer now is to add more ridiculous demands so Boehner can get his votes.

If there is a God, these people will rot in hell, imo, for their insane greed. It's very un Christian.

Constitutionally you are correct.

But, as President he has a responsiblity and obligation to lead and bring together both his own congressional leadership, as well as the opposition leadership together and put as much pressure that he can on them to try to reach a compromise that he can sign ( I know he has tried but he keeps backing away). The leadership of both parties seem to have abdicated their responsibilities to the people and the President has not shown me the leadership I have come to expect from his office, as I have seen so often in past Presidencies. ( and I mean maybe since Truman forward )

It is the Presidents job to "show a vision for the future". He just doesn't sit at a desk "to sign bills". He ran away from his "own commission" that he hand selected over 8 months ago. They said "do this", he said no! that's too hard. Laughable. Leadership and President Obama have NOTHING in common. He got my vote once, but not again. He has done a terrible job, and don't give me crap about the "republicans", they are pathetic also, but this President had a free ride for two whole years when the Democrats had complete control of BOTH house from 1/06 till 1/11, no excuses!! This President had complete control of both houses and the presidency until Jan. 20th 2011. No excuses!!

Obama backed away once, and Republicans have walked away from the table 3 times. The Republicans would rather see "Obama fail" rather than to deal with the debt ceiling.

you are an idiot, james b. The only reason Obama can't get anything down is becuase of stupid people like Boehner. It is this sort of negative mentality that is stalling our once great nation. If any of you were true republicans then you would realize that their views of government have drastically changed over the last 50 years to the point of modern republicans contradicting everything that republicans 50 years ago stood for. The only thing republicans care about now is the only thing 97 percent of the country doesnt have. Money

It's not Obama we need to worry about here. It's Congress. House Republicans have proposed several bills which hit all their 'sacred cows', including both tax increases and military spending cuts. Senate Democrats have proposed similar bills: ones that hit all the REPUBLICAN 'sacred cows'. Reid's plan is ambitious, but it utterly fails to hit the Democratic 'sacred cows' of entitlement spending such as welfare.

I won't say that Boehner's bill is the way to go, but it's closer to the middle ground than Reid's. At least, it is at the moment. We'll see what happens to it.

Eric, the demorcats haven't pass a BUDGET in 832 days! The republicans have passed two bills on this, not what the President wants, but passed none the less, of course the senate killed them. The Senate hasn't passed anything, and Reid is in charge of that. They are all political cowards, and I'm glad to be in cash in my retirement accounts. I knew they'd screw this up, nothing like DC to show dysfunction on a grand scale. Obama is just a Chicago political hack over his head, I got fooled by him in 08, I won't be fooled again.

Nighthawk: Seriously? Presidents since Truman have been leaders you respect?

Eisenhower: Detested by his own party, left office warning the people of a military industrial complex taking over their government (he was so right!!!). But he was a good leader, back when Republicans cared more about people and less about religion and sex.

Kennedy: Hated by the right, killed in office. Didn't have much time to lead. But I'm sure you backed his Bay of Pigs invasion.

Johnson: Hated by the right because he supported civil rights. Led us into Vietnam though, so probably a hero to the right as well.

Nixon: You really respect this one? He led us into China (good) then he led us into corruption and criminal behavior defining the Republican brand for the next 40 years.

Ford: Yawn. Leadership? Uh, yeah, right...

Carter: I'll bet this is your hero, right? Though he was a great leader in the Navy he was not able to get the country past the Nixon debaucle.

Reagan: Senile, turned over the Republican Party to the Dixicrat Evangelical Hate Machine. Leader? Yes, if you don't mind being led into hell and not having anything to drink.

Bush Daddy: "Read my lips, no second term!"

Clinton: Another of your favorites? I'll bet you have his picture up in your bedroom. He was and still is a great leader though. But you guys will never admit it.

Bush Baby: The greatest president in history, right? He led us into 2 wars, depression, unemployment, away from liberty (patriot act) and into the most divided government since the Civil War.

Obama: Well, we already know where you stand on this one. I will say I think he is more of an Uncle Reemus leader, so you really won't understand how he is leading the Repugs around by their very highly raised snouts.

So, what was it you were saying about how much you respect the leadership of presidents since Truman? Please tell me what leadership traits you find in these people you love so much?

The BUDGET is the responsibility of the PRESIDENT.

The US CONSTITUTION calls for the president to submit a budget annually to Congress for review, revision & approval. Obama 2011 Budget voted down by Senate 97-0 with no revisions made by the Senate or President....812 days since our last budget.

BUDGET CUTS impact the budget.....CRISIS leadership is AWOL in DC

2 minute warning sounded & that was the first appearance of the POTUS...

Downgrade / Default / Crisis / Finger Pointing / Campaigning / No Plan

Eric,

When Barack Obama continuously shifts his demands then you expect the Republicans to just go with it ? You are incredible ! Obama has put NOTHING in writing ......... other than his original "asinine" plan that was voted down by a whopping 97 to 0......... I mean zip, zilch, nada ......... not one from his own party even voted for it ! But now, Obama feels like he's "da man" and is calling the shots on everything !!

Obama has said he will veto the Boehner plan....... even though he has yet to read the plan to "see what's in it". That sounds pretty "obstructionist" to me .......... but then, in a hilarious sound bite, he will throw out more words about bipartisan trying to sound like he is taking the high road.

Then, Obama's tool, Harry Reid, comes out multiple times and says it's "dead on arrival" even before he sees the bill !

"Never let a good crisis go to waste" ............. or in this case, let's just create a crisis and reject ALL Republican offerings.

How quickly the Democratic Party has forgotten the lesson of November 2, 2010.

JCB, the American people are going to squarely blame the Republicans for this mess. They can't even get their own house in order to pass their own legislation.

The debt ceiling is being held hostage by the Tea Party.

Wait ... it's the President's job to introduce legislation? I must've been reading that Constitution wrong this whole time. I always thought Congress wrote the laws, and the president either signed or vetoed them. Silly me.

I also seem to recall the President's "Grand Plan" for 3 trillion in cuts and 1 trillion in revenue, with sensible people from coast to coast nodding and saying "hey, that's not too bad". Except for the Tea Baggers and the party of "hell, no". They said "hell, no". Funny how when the President tries to do other people's jobs, they just say "hell no" and just keep driving towards that cliff.

TXTunes: Are you another biblical scholar from Texas trying out for SCOTUS? Perhaps Texas should get its textbooks from a source other than the Southern Baptists.

US Constitution Article I Section 7: "All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives."

Nowhere in the constitution does it say the President is required to submit a budget. In fact, the only role the president holds in budgeting according to the constitution is signing the budget. At least the Senate is given the option of amending it. Also, until 1921 no president ever presented a budget. And since 1921 rarely has congress acted on this proposed budget more than to shoot it down (with the exception of the Bush baby budgets which weren't prepared by Bush baby, they were prepared for him).

Now federal law requires this,

Chapter 11, Title 31, U.S. Code. These are some of the requirements:
* "On or after the first Monday in January but not later than the first Monday in February of each year, the President shall submit a budget of the United States Government for the following fiscal year."
* "Each budget shall include a budget message and summary and supporting information. The President shall include in each budget the following...." The provision goes on to list about thirty items, such as expenditures and receipts for the past year through the fourth year following the budget year, information on debt, financial information, and information on employment levels.
* "Under regulations prescribed by the President, each agency shall provide information required by the President in carrying out this chapter. The President has access to, and may inspect, records of an agency to obtain information."
* "Estimated expenditures and proposed appropriations for the legislative branch and the judicial branch...shall be submitted to the President before October 16 of each year and included in the budget by the President without change."

But you didn't say federal law, you said the constitution. Please find another, this time valid, source of information. You look like an uneducated fool with your posts.

Jim,

Obama isn't the one that's walked out on negotiations 3 TIMES. That was the Republicans doing that.

Presidents don't create legislation and don't typically have "written plans", so I'm guessing that is more of a talking point than anything else.

Obama has caved on revenues, the amounts of cuts, cuts to medicare and social security, and now to short term options. I don't see the Republicans compromising at all.

The President has failed to bring both of our political houses together and the country together as he PROMISED to do but being a weak leader what did you expect with his HOPE & CHANGE 8)

I have change in my pockets and the hope left when he took office.

Less Government is what we need not More.

The President's budget is online, as it always has been. Right here-> http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget.

Saying he has submitted no plan does not make it so. You may not like it, but it is there.

All these people claiming the Democrats are refusing to compromise seem to be forgetting that a group of Tea Party freshmen in the House have caused this "crisis" by refusing to raise the debt ceiling unless Democrats agree to huge spending cuts. Spending cuts we do need, but this is completely the wrong way to get them.

What is really being said is "They won't compromise and give in to our demands."

Yes, he damn sure got all the back alley meetings and stuff done to ram through the Health Bill. Where is all that now?

Michael, that budget failed in the Senate by a vote of 97-0 and is only peripherally related with the increase to the debt ceiling.

When people say, Obama doesn't have a plan, they're talking about the agreement BOTH parties reached that in order to raise the debt ceiling, there needs to be at least compensatory cuts in spending. Obama then agreed, in a speech, to cuts in entitlements - finally putting everything on the table. He was firestormed by his base and Congressional Democrats, and the CBO said "they can't score a speech".

He has no articulate, specific plan for the debt ceiling increase and his budget was rejected by his own party.

Eric,

The simple tradition of our country is that the President of our country prepares a budget PROPOSAL ......... that he then submits to the House. It is the function of the House to create the budget ............. and that is exactly what Obama and Harry Reid are trying to hijack !

But, I do not expect you to be honest about this ....... I have seen way too many of your one-line, disingenuous posts over the years and you appear to be a paid partisan poster.

The lower chamber does appropriations, that is the way English law which our system of government is based on works. The executive branch is not supposed to write legislation. The President did submit his budget at the beginning of the year as usual and it was dismissed in favor of the Ryan plan. You can blame the last congress's democrats for not getting their budget passed, although when they did attempt an omnibus spending bill finally the republicans filibustered it.

First of all, it is the job of Congress to vote on and approve a budget. It is also the job of Congress to balance that budget, to make sure that the money is there to pay the bills. Anything that this Congress passes will not be enforceable by other Congresses.

I do have a queston though. Why do you think this particular budget has to be "bipartisan?" The Democrats didn't have to be bipartisan..did they? They told us they were the ones in power now.

The problem is that neither plan presently is viable, and Boehner is having problems getting the votes, because we are so adamant about not raising the debt limit, not raising taxes, and actually paying our bills from what they already get. Take the money from foreign aid to nations who are our enemies. Take if from stupid projects by liberal professors. Take from anywhere and anything that isn't going to help the American people, and pay our bills, on time, with what you already have. Find a way...do your jobs. Work together to find that path. And Obama needs to stay out of the way and stop politicizing things so he'll win in the next election...he's already blown that.

It is not the president's responsibilty under the Constitution to show leadership on the passing of legislation! It is Congress' job to do that, and then to pass the legislation on to the president to be signed into law! If President Obama were to show leadership on this issue, you right-wing conservative nutcases would have a field day criticizing him for interfering with Congress' jurisdiction!

Dave - The only sane thing to do when we are this far in debt is to require the congress to act responsibly. Do you think the liberals will start acting responsibly because they are asked to? Care with your answer, this may be a pop quiz testing for naivete.

@Nighthawk

Then what is calling the leaders from both sides into a number of meetings to resolve their issues? Where have you been? Maybe you just watch and read from the Murdoch machine. Not that is someone to respect (sarcasm).

The President cannot sumbit a budget, but he can recommend a budget, and he has done so on numerous times in the past six months, including the one he tried to negotiate with Boehner on two weeks ago. However, instead of negotiating, Boehner walked out. So, anyone who wants to blame the President for anything related to this mess need to take their blinders off and look at whats going on in the GOP controlled House. This is where all of the problems are. The GOP reps are proving to be the most disfuntional group of individuals this country has ever seen. Its an embarassment and all those voters out there who voted these morons into office last year should be ashamed of themselves. Hopefully, they will make amends with their votes in 2012.

Boehner walked out because after having agreed to $800 billion in revenue increases, Obama upped the ante another $400 billion.

That is not the definition of negotiating in good faith.

The amends to be made is to force out even more of the incumbents, on both sides of the aisle. Their sense of entitlement is what is destroying this country.

When you hear some of the comments by obvious republicans, its frightening. As ignorant as they may be they still have the right to vote. Fortunately they are not the majority.

" the demorcats haven't pass a BUDGET in 832 days"

Would you guys give it a rest with this nonsense? Some right-wing pundit must have said this because all the right-wingers on here keep parrotting this same line. First, there was a budget passed in 2009 for 2010. The 2011 budget was not required until October 2010 when fiscal year 2011 began. And we did not need one BEFORE then, so the 832 days thing is nonsense. We have not had a budget for ABOUT 9 MONTHS ONLY. And it's not the first time this has ever happened, either. It happened under both Carter and Reagan.

Obama and the Dems have offered compromise while trying to protect the middle class, medicare and social security.

Did you look at the Gang Of Six plan that Obama and Harry Reid supported? The majority of savings came from SS and medicare.

Obama, Clinton and Bush, hired the very people responsible for destroying the middle class. Nothing we can do about Clinton and Bush, but there is something that we can do about Obama.

The majority of savings came from SS and medicare.

You are right. That was thier part of the bargain. Still wasn't good enough for the republicans....

When did the economy start to slow down? Right when the Republicans took over the house.

considering there is no budget proposal that has gone thru the public eye's i can hardly see where any know who is on who's side and who isnt.

The fact that this nation has been taking care of the needy, the non entitled for so long, the government bursting at the seams in size, and all the pork invested from the taxpayers dollars are breaking this nation, and have been for a very bery long time. This is what needs to be stopped, and what ever party, or persons willing to make those sacrifices should be reelected, and elect more of those same people to boot.

personally i dont like being broke, but i never lived on welfare, never applied even tho i know there are progams such as food stamps, and energy assistance and so on i did qualify for. I made it 3 yrs on my own, and it took some hard work, but i did it, and i did it honestly. there is no reason why others out there cant do the same.

this is America, and Americans work together to get things done, not argue who they feel is right, and who is wrong. Not who should be enttitled when they never worked a day in their life, and not because of race, sex, or religion, but because we are a nation of people who when the times get tuff, we muscle up and get the job done, not sit in a corner and cry like babies for a hand out.

So stop the pork, the fake entitlements, the bigger government crap, and all that go along with it, and once again put the taxpayers dollars where they should be.... working for the taxpayer, not the schlomes in office.

Facts just confuse them, jri.

Hyperbole and demagoguery are so much more appealing.

demo

do the math, then try to run your household on the same principles, see what happens.

prag

as usual you hit it.

Harry Reid has already said any plan by the Republicans will be killed by the House, and if it makes thru the House Obama has said he would veto it. So it sounds like the Demos are the ones who are not willing to compromise. I hate to point this out, but if you think the Demos won’t raise taxes on the middle class you are sadly mistaken.

Hi Prag!...I thought I'd send this...... (not that they will actually "get it")

For the Liberally challenged........ just the facts:

Who’s better at running Congress?

Since it’s Congress that sets the spending Budgets, sets the Deficits, and passes legislation affecting jobs and the economy (The President cannot spend one penny that has not been authorized by Congress), let’s look at the record of Congresses over the last 30 years (Through 2010);

JOBS (39,761,000 Net New Jobs)

Jobs created when Democrats controlled Congress (12 years) = 8,100,000 net new jobs.

Jobs created when Republicans controlled Congress (10 years) = 21,773,000 net new jobs.

Jobs created when Congress was split (8 years) = 9,888,000 net new jobs.

DEFICITS (a) ($7.304 Trillion)

Total Deficits when Democrats controlled Congress (12 years) = $5.022 Trillion.

Total Deficits when Republicans controlled Congress (10 years) = $1.219 Trillion.

Total Deficits when Congress was split (8 years) = $1.063 Trillion.
NATIONAL DEBT ($12.878 Trillion = 93.4% of all the Debt in our History)

Total New Debt when Democrats controlled Congress (12 years) = $7.859 Trillion.

Total New Debt when Republicans controlled Congress (10 years) = $3.238 Trillion.

Total New Debt when Congress was split (8 years) = $1.781 Trillion.

ECONOMIC GROWTH ($11.873 Trillion of GDP growth)

Total Growth (GDP) when Democrats controlled Congress (12 years) = $3.887 Trillion.

Total Growth (GDP) when Republicans controlled Congress (10 years) = $5.623 Trillion.

Total Growth (GDP) when Congress was split (8 years) = $2.363 Trillion.

Draw your own conclusions, but these are undisputed facts from government sources.

(a) Deficits do not equal the increase in the Debt because of the government’s ‘funny accounting’.

Sources – Democrats controlled Congress from 1987 – 1994, and from 2007 – 2010.
Republicans controlled Congress from 1995 – 2000, and from 2003 – 2006.
There was a split Congress from 1980 – 1986 and for 2001 & 2002.

Links to government data sites are as follows;

Jobs – http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat1.pdf

Deficits – http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals See Table 1.1

National Debt – http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np

Go ahead libbies...dispute the governments own websites.

Republicans = tax cuts for the rich and for corporations.

Too bad middle class, suck it up. You're eating too much raman anyway (sarc).

Well said!

Eric-913730

When did the economy start to slow down? Right when the Republicans took over the house.

wrong, lol.... the economy never actually picked up, however it is showing more promise, maybe. this week i recieved 3 e-mails, and 4 calls, all in one week asking me to give a call. This has been the most i have recieved in 3 yrs, usually i am the one seeking these guys out for a job, and they pulled my name out of a list of resumes'. 2 places are about 200 or so miles away even, as well one is a former employer. This is how i base the job situation, when people call me back for an interview, how many and how soon after i apply. this is wisconsin however, so perhaps the jobs legislation here, by republicans imo is working.

for the past 3 yrs, if i didnt hear something by june, i could hang it up, the jobs posted would start dropping like a rock.... so this IS better. Economy=Jobs, no job=no $ to spend=no economy. Sry Eric, but i think your talking out the wrong end.

Ah, but Joe. Presidents have veto power.

Let's look at debt by Presidents, and you'll see this whole mess started with Reagonics and "trickle down" economics.

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

Did you look at the Gang Of Six plan that Obama and Harry Reid supported? The majority of savings came from SS and medicare.

And the on top of it, the republicans then say that the democrats aren't willing to compromise.

Sorry your wrong. The Dems and Obama have NOT done anything. No work, No written bill. Zip-squat.

And defied federal law by refusing to pass a budget in over 3 years.

This mess is ALL on the backs of the "Dums".

The reason the "Dums" refused to pass a Budget in over 3 years is that they didn't want a budget to restrict their wild spending spree that gave us this huge debt today.

Duh!

ERIC.....

"Let's look at debt by Presidents"......pssst... -0-....aparrently you can't read...... Again...it's all done by congress...not the president...all the president does it sign or veto....and it is apparent the dem leadership has lost on the issue of who has been doing a better job.....

All I can say is....same old... eric...lmao.... Facts still elude you... but hey... don't let facts get in the way. If we put you in a box with both ends open....could you find your way out?

We can always count on eric to argue the the sky is red with blue polka dots...... and yellow stripes.....just sayin'.

I am thinking you have that backwards and are listening only to what news broadcasters say. I would sugest some investigating on your own. It will open your eyes to who are the real socialistand who is really trying to destroy this country.

Average Joe, too bad you don't have any facts to argue with, you can just call names......

Read the article folks: http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

This is where "trickle economics" has led to, and Republicans keep sticking to it like glue.

Hey Megalodon, Look at the graph - http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/gdp_glance.htm

Call names? Who did I call names? As for the facts...I posted all facts relevant to my original post....again, it is obvious the you can't read...or at the very least...you don't read. Nice try....but you are still lacking........in logic.

Eric-913730 - "When did the economy start to slow down? Right when the Republicans took over the house."

actually it started in 2007 - when DEMs took control of Congress

.........bls.gov/cps/prev_yrs.htm

unemployment was 4.6% in 2007 before DEMs took Congress then unemployment went to 5.8 & UP to 9.6% in 2010 under DEM control

How is trickle UP economics working....

unemployment UP 3.4%, debt UP $7 Trillion, deficit spending UP $1.7 Trillion, bailouts UP $2.15 Trillion, debt ceiling UP $2.5 Trillion if Obama extends the ceiling PAST THE ELECTION

Average Joe -- Since it takes anywhere from 5 to 50 years for a policy change to achieve it's full impact on the economy, what value is there in recording who happened to be in office at the time the various effects were realized? Who was in control in the period 4 years before an effect is probably more important, and even then, political decisions may have only negligible effects by comparison to systematic changes that result from financial, social and product cycles.

maxwello,

So we should be more worried about how the fly that entered our room today got in...than the buildup of thousands of flies that have been comming in for the last year? Sometimes you have to look at the BIG PICTURE...rather than concentrate on the smudge in the corner.
What happened in the last 4 years has some bearing on how we got here....but the fact remains that everything that has been done in the past has also contributed ....You can jump up and down, scream and holler all you want, but it won't change a thing concerning the reality.
Overall, the Republicans have had a better effect on the economy than the Democrats have had....my statistics posted above bare that out. I realize that I am making no headway with liberals....but....facts are facts (whether you choose to admit it publicly or not).
Sometimes the truth is a bitter pill to swallow...sugar coating may help....but the underlying taste....is still bitter.

BTW, I gave you 30 years worth of statistics.....do I really need to go back further?

Eric-913730,

" Ah, but Joe. Presidents have veto power."

Ah, but Eric. Congress can override the president's veto.

I don't know how much better it can get for businesses. They are holding onto trillions of dollars, working their workers to death for less money and not hiring anyone, because they can pay someone in China $1.40 an hour.

The only way to bring business back would be to get Americans to believe that working for $1.40 and hour was a good thing.

It looks like the GOP is on the verge of achieving that.

Why are they hanging on to all that money, Eric? Why are they not investing?

Do you know?

Because they don't have to invest or hire to get their profit. Why do it, if you don't have to.

NonThinkinginWichita,

"leave the rational, thinking people alone"

Do you know any?......Considering your comment , I would guess the answer is ...no.

The comment by ThinkinginWichita @ #6.4 appears to be intentionally attacking another poster and inflammatory !

Any bets on whether Sally will banish, warn or do nothing ?

Pragmatic to a Fault is consistently one of the more cohesive and thoughtful commentators on this thread. While I have not agreed 100%, the substance is there.

Some people simply resort to personal attacks when they have nothing valid to say.

jim-1455434, I commented on page 14 concerning you inquiry (before I saw your comment)...I should be banned shortly...just sayin'.

ThinkinginWichita
I can't rspond to anyones posts here.....I may get banned....Sally is moderating (censoring) those of us that don't march lockstep with her belief system.

If Sally is moderating... you can bet the comments weren't collapsed by the community...they were collapsed by Sally....anything that Sally doesn't personally like...she collapses or bans....been there done that with her before.

Rational minds do not keep comming back for more silliness....Neither side is being mature...neither side can admit when they are wrong...no matter what proof is offered....so, what's the point? None of us, no matter how much we scream or holler at each other is going to affect the outcome in DC, so again....what's the point? There's my logic.

I'll will show my views...at the Ballot box and hope for the best for our nation as a whole. Commenting here (or anywhere for that matter) has become a waste of time....It has become an exercise in futility.

Respectfully, AJ

Eric, yyou sure don't know anything about investing or finance, do you? I bet you think they just have all their money buried in the backyard like you.

You folks continue not to get it. Corporations with shareholders (Corp Class C) have only one motivation - maximize shareholder value. So the President an CEO's very job is cut expenses and yes, build things overseas where it costs less. If you don't like Corporation Class C, do something about that. But it is not going to bring jobs back to America.

And Congress is not about to create Middleclass jobs - neither Democrats nor Republicans. Next?

Okay, the United States government is a corporation and guess what, so is the democrat party. I want to know where all the dues that the unions pay to the dem/lib/socialist/marxist party goes. You take it by promising to use taxpayer dollars to give pensions and medical care and early retirement. So those dollars go into the taxpayer coffers? If not, why not? All the EXTRA money that goes into education, does it come back at the end of each year? And how about the EXTRA money that Obama took to fund Obamacare in two years...why hasn't that money gone back into government coffers?

The Dem/lib/socialist/marxist party is a very wealthy organization. In addition, the United States Government created an entire department...The Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), which demands that every business and every corporation be audited each year by an independent auditor, and then present their accounting reports to them, and publish them online for everyone to see. Every business must have a balanced budget and be able to show it. These laws were created by the United States Congress, and yet they do not follow their own laws.

We want a group of proveably independent auditors to audit the books of the United States Government, so that we the people know exactly where we stand. We're tired of being lied to, and we're tired of politics as usual, and the frightening of little old ladies and children to get their own way.

Anyone who agrees with me, please begin writing to your congressmen and to the house and to the President. It's time we the people began standing up for our rights and not allowing a bunch of power hungry children destroy this economy any more.

finally someone with an intelligent comment...thank you

"dem/lib/socialist/marxist party"

As soon as you said this, you lost any credibility you might have had.

Chuck dear: The health care bill was not crammed down our throats. It was passed by a majority of our elected representatives. Poll after poll indicates either support for the health care reforms that were enacted or a desire for even more radical reform. Further, objective analysis of the bill indicates it will actually save money over the long run. Try to deal with reality.

The right left reality back in the 80's.

Jamie: Reality begins by realizing that people who watch Fox and then come to MSNBC to show off their new knowledge cannot be persuaded to think rationally, act like an adult or to accept facts when they disagree with the indoctrination their betters have given them.

Reality is operating in the House as we speak!

Jamie R - you forgot to point out it was passed with both house and senate controlled by the Dems.... then a funny thing happened... the TEA Party, because we were all soooooo happy!

The reality that they can't agree on a bill?

Why, Chuck...that's the first accurate thing I think you've ever posted!

Jamie, do you really think the radicals actually understand what "objective analysis" is? I'll give you credit for trying though.

Jamie R, you need to read the bill (Obamacare). I have, took over a year. This bill was crammed down our throats, the people objected, the democrats turned a deaf ear.

Read it Jamie R, and then we can have a lively debate.

Jamie you better look at the polls again, a majority of the people want obamacare repealed, from the most recent poll to the first polls including the poll taken in November of 2010, when a majority of those who ran on a ticket of repealing obamacare, cut spending and nor raise taxes, now we have politicians that are actually trying to keep their promises. The GOP compromised in the last budget negotiations (unfortunately the Dems got everything they wanted because the GOP did not want to shut down the Governement, they shouldn't have caved) now its the Dems turn to "compromise", the fact is the Dems for the time being hold the Senate and Whitehouse and the GOP is again the minority 1/3 GOP, 2/3 Dems. If this country defaults the majority (liberals)WILL DESERVE and be handed the blame. When will the dems learn we do not have a revenue problem we have a spending problem. Cut spending, down size Government , restructure "entitlement programs" and we will have more revenue, more people working and less people sitting around eating Bon Bons, through a system that would truly only give "entitlments" to those who truly can not work.

Jamie dear: Since when have polls ever not been slanted? An objective poll is an oxymoron. Pol. parties poll places that reflect their interests.. these polls you speak of were probably done in some big city in california- which has clearly sunk its budget.. or some other city in the northeast.. a definite liberal hub. Obama was a rebound bc the Bush administration scared ppl no doubt. lol. He was voted in on account of being a good orator and his promise of change. clearly you can't overlook his lack of good leadership experience forever. it was obvious it wouldn't last. This is just the wake-up call! More spending is not changing anything! Freakin' commies

Don't forget Pisslosi hollering we gotta pass this health care bill to see whats in it. Pure dumbocraps vote for anything that spends money.

When the three stooges (Harry, Bo and Squirrelly .... a.k.a. Nancy) saw Scott Brown's election from the "blue-state" of Massachusetts ........ they had to get pretty damn creative to ram through this legislation. First, there had already been the Cornhusker kickback, the Louisiana purchase and the stupefying of Stupak. Next, they knew Scott Brown would vote against the bill so they had to make sure to DISENFRANCHISE his vote.

Their answer was to abuse the process called "Reconciliation" which requires revenue neutrality. Then the savings numbers were "bogused" by double -counting the "Medicare savings" ........ so as to make it appear it was actually saving money.

Add a little KY jelly and it was squeezed through Congress to the chagrin of 60%+ of the U.S. voting public

That people ...... is the key reason why the Democratic Party got their butts kicked on 11/2/10.

Great thread - repeal ObamaCare!

Actually, ObamaCare started the largest party rift in my recent memory. And it vaulted the Tea Party into existence. I don't think our President really understood how many folks were opposed to it andy why so many Democrats lost seats last year! Obama has totally divided the country...

The democrats have been trying to reform health care since the Truman administration, and in 2009 they had a supermajority in congress and the political capital to do it so they did it. If the republicans had a supermajority right now they'd probably pass their BBA and half the country would hate that, too. Midterm elections almost always divide the government against the dominant party.

Also, Fox News in particular but the entire right-wing media and political body put out a lot of damaging falsehoods about so-called Obamacare ("illegal immigrants will be covered"--remember that one?), which is actually an attempt to bring down the rising costs of health care in the US.

First of all, there is no tea party yet. We're people...some of us are democrats, some republicans and a whole lot independents. Whether or not the so called tea partiers actually become a political party, really depends upon whether or not the Republicans are actually able to do their job for once.

The reason our country is in such deep debt is that there has been TOO MUCH bipartisanship over the past several years. There are two different parties for a reason.

I guarantee that if we had not been so bipartisan we would not have overextended ourselves and racked up so much debt! I do not want the 2 parties “getting together” to wildly spend anymore of my money!

Now there I agree!

What surprised me even more was his statement this morning on his TV address

" we do not have a AAA political system"

that told me all I needed to know about President Obama and his real agenda

My President is unbelievable. He is the one that cooked up the deal with
Pelosi and Reid that is set to explode and blow up employer sponsored
healthcare as we know it in 2014, which is also a very large drain on
jobs. He is the one that has exempted his favorites from the Obama Healthcare law, which is in my opinion not even Constitutional to do. He is the one that
sent a budget outline to Congress that had not only no cuts, but actually would
have increased spending. He is the one that has continually scared senior citizens as he continues his 4 year campaign to get to the next four years. He has constantly practiced class warfare, been extremely divisive, appointed czars to do his bidding, and has unleashed bureaucrats to do what Congress refused to do as far as environmental regulation. And now he wants to stand in front of the microphone and try to appear to be the middle of the road guy in the room and resolve the debt ceiling deadlock. What nerve. What absolute crass nerve.

You Mr. President are the worst president this great country has ever had. You practiced your art in Chicago as a community organizer which at its core is simply the art of playing one faction against another and you have carried that divisive art form with you into the Whitehouse. You have never attempted to bring this great land together and in fact you have divided it among the target constituents du jour that you want to play to on an ever changing basis. You make deals and break deals like changing your shirt. You can’t be trusted. That is why you are no longer even relevant in this process sir.

I for one do not want you to have permission to spend another 2.3 trillion dollars. I want spending cuts. I want a balanced budget agreement put in place. Why? Because I don’t trust anyone in Washington anymore to do what is good for the country. And that applies especially to you Mr. President, and it applies to the old guard leadership of Pelosi and Reid and even to Boehner.

Congress has looked the other way since President Johnson started raiding the social security trust funds, and now, after you jerks have spent those funds, now you think entitlements have to be reformed. Well here is one reform you are not talking about and that is the ridiculous pay and benefits bestowed on former members of congress. And for what? For promising and spending nearly $100 trillion dollars more than they bothered to raise in taxes. And for this, they get retirement benefits they never contributed to and healthcare that is never going to cost them a dime. That is one default that needs to take place.

No sir. You do not fool me for a minute. I’ll continue to pressure my Congressman to cut, cap and balance and if it means we all have to go through this again next year, then so be it.

Demo - Can you define and give some examples of corporate welfare?

I agree that the debt was rasied many times. Was it good for the people? Or is this one of the items that we "Blame Bush"?

Why was Obama against the debt increase when Bush was president, but he is for it now?

I think spending needs to decrease by at least 500 billion a year. That is 1/7 of the spending.

This is the way this works. The Tea Party Caucus in the House is adamant. They will not vote to pass the debt-ceiling increase. They have enough power to hold things up for as long as necessary to get their way. They are not selling out to lobbyists, they are not worried about being re-elected.

They can't be bought, they can't be threatened. This is great.

GO TEA PARTY.

Its always the leftus that like to blame previous presidents about our problems, but never fix the situation Now. Wake up in the now, and stop blaming. There is an economy to fix Now!

glenn

excellant post

killswitch-3826283

Its always the leftus that like to blame previous presidents about our problems, but never fix the situation Now. Wake up in the now, and stop blaming. There is an economy to fix Now!

convinient to say now huh, when Bush was President all we heard was Clinton, Clinton,Clinton,Clinton,Clinton... We are trying to fix the Bush economy but the Tea Party babies wont play nice with the other kids. I guess if they do nothing they cannot get any blame for anything.

And don't get on me for being a left anything, I'm not. I call it like I see it, just like McCain did the other day. If the Hobbits believe Obama is going to get the blame for this next recession they are wrong, America is fickle but we see the truth and know who is hold us hostage, holding jobs hostage...

Truly a great post @ #9.3 by Glenn.

His followers will be too blind to see it ....... but, for the rest of us. it is the transparency we were promised. Yes, Mr. Obama.... we see right through you. We know you want this resolved "long-term" so it does not come up before the next election.

Getting re-elected and maintaining YOUR POWER.... is what it's all about for you !!!!

Woops ! For clarity "His followers..." refers to Obama's followers ... the sheeple.

Thanks Sally ! We truly do need some "housekeeping" here on "The Vine" at times.

No George Bush will go down with that record and the mess that he left Obama to try and clean up. Wake up- Republicans are trying to privatize and sell the government to the highest bidder at the expense of the middle class.

Wake up- Republicans are trying to privatize and sell the government to the highest bidder at the expense of the middle class.

You mean these highest bidders?

UPDATE 1-Wall Street boosts Obama's campaign cash haul

Obama Donations Show Strong WallSt. Support - NYTimes.com

Democrats are darlings of WallSt. - Los Angeles Times

What do you mean the highest bidder? They are trying to default out so they can hand over the govenment's assetts to their corporate masters at pennies on the billion dollars. That's how the current Republican pyramid scheme works. The government hands over education, social security, health care, medicare, medicaid and all real properties (like national parks, forest land and anything that can be mined or extracted) for nothing to people who have too much already. Then the rich people drain everything of value from the free properties they just got and whine to their bribed legislators that the goverment robbed them by giving them worthless schools and parks. Thus the taxpayers (those left) will be forced to subsidize those freebies and make certain that the rich people who were given everything aren't left to fend for themselves with only a few billion dollars.

Yes, everything was fine at the end of 2008.
Moron.

Yeah...Republicans filibustering constantly, and saying NO to anything the Dem's tried to pass.....Quit supporting the uber rich, and tell the Tea Party to go away!

Poor Dave... How hard it must be to go through life this clueless... pity.

@ dave-2180793:

Another fine example of trying to make a lie the truth by constant repetition.

Your boys were elected to create jobs- and there they are, doing the same stupid things that caused economic collapse to start with: raping the middle class and the poor to benefit the rich- just like they did when they helped Obama win the White House.

You and they have learned nothing. I think you need to call it quits- maybe it'll be the Green Party or the Libertarians and the Democrats- but the Republicans have openly shown America that they couldn't lead a sailor into a bar, let alone a country out of fiscal jeopardy created to spite the executive by the Third Right- the "Party of NO".

We're STILL blaming Bush? What year is it?

That Bush was/is one hell of a President. He is still running the show.

Some day in the distant future, this may actually become Obama's economy.

toomanyp1: I'll quit blaming Bush when someone else is found to be responsible for lying us into war, handing over our national treasure to corporate America, deregulation and turning the Justice Department into the Office of Religious Affairs.

And would you guys quit trying to pretend that Bush alone was responsible? It was the entire Republican Party including many still in office who sent bills to Bush to sign. The man wasn't smart enough or political enough to get anything done. He was a bobble head, nothing more. The economic failure is the responsiblity of the Republican Party first, Bush second.

You are right Dave.

The Repubs like the plan called "Cut,Cap and Balance". It's a real solution.

The Dems like " Gut, Tap, and Challenge" i.e. GUT the Treasury, TAP the TAX PAYERS, & CHALLENGE Capitalism.

Obama has been in office long enough to have his policies take effect and work, but they aren't, it is time to stop blaming Bush. Obama needs to start taking responsibility for his own policies.

Dumocraps are the real party of no. Republicans are the party of know! There is a huge difference. Dumbama = Dumacrap!

The war criminal Bush and his butt monkeysi are the sole cause of the present terrible recession and almost caused a total depression had it not been for President Obama!

Read about the may Bush war crimes here:

http://www.impeachbush.org/site/PageServer

Why would they get to work at 8am like the rest of us? There isn't anything important for them to do.

Don't worry. I'm sure the Republican House will close down for the weekend again. They have to get back to their states to lie about what a great job they are doing.

Daryl nails it. Well put. After all, without keeping the lies fresh, how can they get reelected?

I'd rather anyone have control of these things than the inept government ! That is precisely why We are where we are at people. If You think the government can do a better job that the private sector... may god help us. Geez, these guys are rotten to the bone! And where do You dems get off on saying Repubs are the only ones that are big business ??? Who in the hell do You think our imposter and chief is going to raise a billion dollars for His campaign ? He will be the first billion dollar candidate !